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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Kristin Davis, and I want to know are

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Speaker 1: you a Charlotte? Well, hello, hello, hello, everybody, welcome back

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Speaker 1: to Are You a Charlotte? We have such a thrilling

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Speaker 1: guest today. I have been trying to get her on

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Speaker 1: for quite some time. I'm a very big fan. Is

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Speaker 1: doctor Orna Geralnik. She is incredible. You may know her

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Speaker 1: from Couple's Therapy, which is on Paramount Plus Now. It's

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Speaker 1: a great, great show where she is actually a therapist

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Speaker 1: to actual, real people. She is a true psychologist and

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Speaker 1: psychoanalyst practicing in New York City. She's on the faculty

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Speaker 1: at NYU. Her academic instruction examines intergenerational trauma, the intersection

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Speaker 1: of socio political ideology, and psychoanalysis, disassociation and depersonalization. Doesn't

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Speaker 1: that sound am amazing? She's really, really smart and I

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Speaker 1: am so excited because I have her on today to

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Speaker 1: talk about one of the really intense episodes where Carrie

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Speaker 1: is cheating with Big behind Aiden's back, It's all or Nothing.

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Speaker 1: This episode aired August thirteenth, in the year two thousand,

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Speaker 1: is directed by Charles McDougall and written by the incredible

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Speaker 1: Jenny Bicks. So we're going to break it down. We're

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Speaker 1: going to talk about some bigger kind of cultural psychoanalysis

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Speaker 1: type therapy things, and then also I'm going to break

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Speaker 1: down the episode a little bit later on my own.

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Speaker 1: So please enjoy. I hope you love it. She's so great.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so so much for joining me. I am

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Speaker 1: the biggest fan. A mutual friend told me to watch

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Speaker 1: Couple's Therapy and I said, oh, I'm really worried about

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Speaker 1: watching it because I'm not in a relationship and I'm

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Speaker 1: worried that it will never make me want to get

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Speaker 1: into one. And it was totally opposite. It's so beautiful,

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Speaker 1: the people coming to you and really doing the work.

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Speaker 2: I know, it's I have to say, like being you know,

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Speaker 2: I'm writing a book now about couples, and I'm kind

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Speaker 2: of scanning the history of my work with couples over

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Speaker 2: the years, and it has made me believe more and

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Speaker 2: more in humanity.

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Speaker 1: Oh that's so nice. We need that right now.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we definitely do.

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Speaker 1: We definitely do. And it's just so great because also

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Speaker 1: you have such a great variety of people human beings

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Speaker 1: and what they're going through, and it really reminds you

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Speaker 1: of how we're connected and similar, even though we might

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Speaker 1: not realize that all the time. You know, everyone's right,

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Speaker 1: there's like struggling with the same things. And part of

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Speaker 1: the reason that I want to do I know this

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Speaker 1: is not your normal podcast that you would come on to,

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Speaker 1: so I really really appreciate it. But part of what

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Speaker 1: I love is that you do talk about and kind

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Speaker 1: of connect culture in terms of relationships. And I mean,

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Speaker 1: for me, I feel like you have insight into how

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Speaker 1: we're talking about things, and for me, for our show

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Speaker 1: for Sex and the City, especially when it started, which

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Speaker 1: was nineteen ninety eight, well quite a long time ago.

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Speaker 1: You know, we really wanted to at the time create

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Speaker 1: a new way of talking about relationships that was female centered,

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Speaker 1: you know, female empowering, talking about things that people weren't

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Speaker 1: talking about. Now, it's funny to me that in twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty five, this is still kind of a relevant thing,

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Speaker 1: and I would love your perspective on it and your

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Speaker 1: perspective on how culture relates to our expectations in relationships

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Speaker 1: because people have a lot to say. You know, people

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Speaker 1: have a lot of projection onto shows and characters, and

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Speaker 1: you know, they have a lot of deep feelings, like Oh,

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Speaker 1: Carrie's a narcissist. You know, everyone likes to call everyone

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Speaker 1: a narcissist. Now it's a very fascinating thing. But like,

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Speaker 1: what is your perspective on all of this, how do

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Speaker 1: they connect?

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Speaker 2: Well, really big questions. Sorry, I mean to just like gory.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, Well I.

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Speaker 2: Must start by saying that I loved Sex and the

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Speaker 2: City at the time.

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Speaker 1: Thank you.

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Speaker 2: And my daughter, who's twenty five is she told me

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Speaker 2: that she knows episode episode by episode by heart.

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Speaker 1: I love that. Thank you, Oh tell her, thank you

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Speaker 1: so much.

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Speaker 2: Transferred along the generations level. Yeah, so look, I think

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Speaker 2: you know, Freud already talked about how mm hmm our connection,

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Speaker 2: our our sexual connection to other people is not like

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Speaker 2: a private event. It's always sort of it lives in

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Speaker 2: the context of like the social right, where we have

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Speaker 2: our desires and then we have society to contend with.

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Speaker 2: So we're always to some degree kind of mediating between

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Speaker 2: like all sorts of impulses and the culture that we

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Speaker 2: live in, right, and it's there's always some interesting tension there.

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Speaker 2: So in that sense, I find that couples are kind

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Speaker 2: of like a perfect arena, like the in which like

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Speaker 2: the or relationships are the perfect arena between like what

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Speaker 2: are our impulses individuals and what are the messages we're

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Speaker 2: getting from the culture at large about how to be

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Speaker 2: a human? And I do think like your show is

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Speaker 2: very much about that sort of how do you navigate

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Speaker 2: individuality and where does it live within the culture at large?

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Speaker 2: And how much freedom? How many degrees of freedom do

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Speaker 2: we have? And I feel like what Sex and the

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Speaker 2: City has done, is it carved out way more degrees

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Speaker 2: of freedom for women just in terms of like understanding

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Speaker 2: how to think about themselves and how to think about

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Speaker 2: relationships and how to think about sexuality. And I think

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Speaker 2: about friendship super important, absolutely, So I mean we can

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Speaker 2: talk about lots of things in terms of what are

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Speaker 2: those tensions?

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Speaker 1: And I know, I mean, I think that's really well put.

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Speaker 1: And I think it's like permission. Sometimes you need something

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Speaker 1: reflecting back to you that you have permission to, you know,

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Speaker 1: be certain ways. Like Samantha is a perfect example kind

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Speaker 1: of a different character than we had previously seen on television,

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Speaker 1: really embracing her singleness, her sexuality, her freedom to choose,

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Speaker 1: you know, not being judged. This particular episode is an

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Speaker 1: interesting one. I had totally forgotten. I really haven't rewatched

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Speaker 1: this until now, you know, which is many many years.

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Speaker 1: I always loved our show, but I'm having so much

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Speaker 1: more appreciation for the writing and you know, all the

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Speaker 1: different elements and the ways that we you know, even

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Speaker 1: each character goes through different moments that you forget, and

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Speaker 1: then you're like, oh, no, here's Samantha. She gets sick,

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Speaker 1: she call goes through her black book, calling her sex partners.

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Speaker 1: No one will come over to help her rehang her curtain,

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Speaker 1: which I, as a single woman, totally relate to. Right,

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Speaker 1: who is going to help you hang your curtain? You

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Speaker 1: got to call a handyman, this is what I've learned.

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Speaker 1: You cannot call a casual you know, date. But this

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Speaker 1: episode is called all or Nothing, which I really love

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Speaker 1: in It aired in two thousand, which is also so

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Speaker 1: crazy to me that it's just so relatable, you know,

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Speaker 1: forever these things. And then when she's sick and she

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Speaker 1: has a fever, Samantha, who we think is being completely

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Speaker 1: free and without judgment and not shackled by these societal

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Speaker 1: expectations of marriage, She's all of a sudden saying, I

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Speaker 1: should I've gotten married? You know, it is really kind

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Speaker 1: of heartbreaking, but then when she gets well, she's like, no, no,

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Speaker 1: I was just having a moment. But it's so freeing.

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Speaker 1: It's like a breath of fresh air, you know, to

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Speaker 1: have that character be so powerful, and so many people

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Speaker 1: still talk to me about that character, and it's kind

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Speaker 1: of amazing that we don't have more characters like her,

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Speaker 1: But I do feel like it has it is more

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Speaker 1: acceptable now to be someone who's saying, I am proudly

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Speaker 1: a Samantha, Yeah, and rightly. So you can choose your

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Speaker 1: own situation and be free. Now, do you feel like

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Speaker 1: if you look at it from your perspective and what

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Speaker 1: you're seeing, Because you're seeing clients all the time who

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Speaker 1: are in it, like living in relationships, trying to define

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Speaker 1: their roles in relationships. And I have friends who are divorced,

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Speaker 1: friends who are still married, younger friends who are looking

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Speaker 1: to get married. And someone was just talking to me

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Speaker 1: yesterday about how he's been divorced he's going to get remarried.

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Speaker 1: And he said, you know, I was in a top

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Speaker 1: sick relationship and I was pulling all the weight and

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Speaker 1: earning the money and she wasn't doing anything. And I said,

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Speaker 1: did you guys talk about this, like, did you ever

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Speaker 1: talk about this, you know, you know when you're and

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Speaker 1: he's a guy obviously, and he said, well, I just

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Speaker 1: thought that she was a partner and she would be

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Speaker 1: a partner. And I said, but you you have to

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Speaker 1: discuss this stuff. You have to negotiate it together, because

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Speaker 1: there's a huge range of expectations. Right, So it's interesting.

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Speaker 2: Right, huge range of expectations. How do people imagine relationships work?

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Speaker 2: But also each person has their own perspective, right, this person,

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Speaker 2: this friend of yours, might have thought that he's pulling

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Speaker 2: all the weight in one domain, but not aware at

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Speaker 2: all of some other domain in which she felt like

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Speaker 2: she's pulling all the weight.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure, yes, I am sure. I mean, of course,

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Speaker 1: I saw a great clip of you talking about people

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Speaker 1: people wanting to change their partner, and you're saying, you

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Speaker 1: know that there is this kind of unspoken thing that

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Speaker 1: happens in therapy where you go to therapy and you think,

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Speaker 1: like I really want to change that person, and doctor

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Speaker 1: Ornan is gonna help me. Yes, Well that's not really

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Speaker 1: the game, that's not really the thing that you want

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Speaker 1: to do.

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Speaker 2: It's not no, And really that's how most therapies start.

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Speaker 2: Most couple's therapies start with like each of them kind

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Speaker 2: of dragging the other one into the office and kind

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Speaker 2: of winking at me. Change them, change them right, And

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Speaker 2: then at some point in the work they realize, Oh,

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Speaker 2: she's not doing that.

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Speaker 1: That's my love about you though. You're so you're so

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Speaker 1: you have such great boundaries, so you're so empathetic, but

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Speaker 1: at the same time you have to very calmly say,

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Speaker 1: do you see that you're doing the thing that we've discussed,

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Speaker 1: you know, and that's that's really powerful and so hard

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Speaker 1: to find.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, if I was in a couple, I would be

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Speaker 1: trying to see you, as would everyone else. But let's say,

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Speaker 1: the biggest thing that I really wanted to hear your

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Speaker 1: perspective on in this particular episode and in the show,

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Speaker 1: and I think in life is the cheating situation. Right,

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Speaker 1: So we're at the part in season three for everyone listening,

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Speaker 1: I know, you know, but it is when Carrie has

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Speaker 1: cheated and not aiden with Big and she's kept it

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Speaker 1: a secret. And I love how our writers and director

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Speaker 1: Charles mcdougil, great director, use the kind of she's she's like,

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Speaker 1: I have the best boyfriend. She starts the show I

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Speaker 1: have the best boyfriend, and then she'll just have these

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Speaker 1: flashbacks of the sex with Big and how you know powerful,

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Speaker 1: isn't that She's like trying to put it out of

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Speaker 1: her mind. I didn't do that. I didn't do that.

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Speaker 1: I didn't tell anyone. No one knows, you know, obviously

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Speaker 1: other than Big. Right, she hasn't told any of the friends.

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Speaker 1: But she's riddled my guilt, you know, which is of

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Speaker 1: course the horrible problem when you have ever cheated is

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Speaker 1: that then you can't really be yourself.

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Speaker 2: Well, there's a lot to say about that, please go ahead,

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Speaker 2: So much to say about that, but let's just first

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Speaker 2: talk about what you're saying about the guilt. The fact

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Speaker 2: that Carrie is feeling guilty is actually a sign of,

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Speaker 2: if you want to say, psychological health or integration. Because

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Speaker 2: what happens sometimes when people cheat is they can't actually

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Speaker 2: tolerate guilt. They can't really wrestle with the fact that

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Speaker 2: they're cheating might mean something to their actual partner, so

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Speaker 2: they keep it dissociated. Wow, So there are people that

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Speaker 2: cheat and it's as if it's happening on another like

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Speaker 2: on a separate universe. And they in their inner world,

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Speaker 2: they keep it separate, so they don't actually they don't

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Speaker 2: actually deal with what they're doing.

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Speaker 1: Wow, that's really interesting. Yeah, I don't know anything about that.

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Speaker 1: I'm not one of those people. I have cheated, but

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Speaker 1: I'm not one of those people. So what would make

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Speaker 1: someone be like that? Like what's their makeup or what's

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Speaker 1: happening that they do that?

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Speaker 2: We can take a little detour here and talk about

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Speaker 2: like defense mechanisms there. You know, there are all sorts

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Speaker 2: of ways that we hide from ourselves that we don't

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Speaker 2: want to know certain things about ourselves or about reality.

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Speaker 2: Reality can be pretty overwhelming and humiliating and misunderstood, and

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Speaker 2: there are many reasons why we can't deal with everything.

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Speaker 2: So we employ all sorts of different defense mechanisms, and

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Speaker 2: people differ in like the type of defense they tend

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Speaker 2: to gravitate towards and how much it distorts reality. So

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Speaker 2: some people use like you know, what we'd call like

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Speaker 2: really primitive defenses, and they just deny things that are

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Speaker 2: actually right in front of them them, like people could

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Speaker 2: actually people could cheat and deny that it's happening. Wow,

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Speaker 2: really almost deny to themselves. Certainly deny to anyone else.

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Speaker 2: But then there's people who can dissociate. They can just

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Speaker 2: keep their worlds very separate, so they can have like

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Speaker 2: a a semi functional relationship with their partner and they're

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Speaker 2: on the side doing something else that's coming from a

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Speaker 2: different part of their personality that is not integrated. And

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Speaker 2: you know, when these things emerge, or when someone is

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Speaker 2: let's say, caught, or something happens and the two realities meet,

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Speaker 2: they can really have a breakdown because they've in their

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Speaker 2: own mind, they've kept it separate.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So the fact that Carrie's actually able to feel

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Speaker 2: guilt and she struggles with it is good.

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Speaker 1: That makes so much, so much sense. It's good, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: of course. And I think it's of course because I

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Speaker 1: mean you're you're talking about like a really deep seated compartmentalization,

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Speaker 1: right right, and that that that's interesting. I'm sure that

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Speaker 1: I've dated people like this, but I'm not one of them.

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Speaker 1: But but it's interesting to think about. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: I in the one hand, it seems like it would

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Speaker 1: be great, but then there is like in another way,

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Speaker 1: I'm wondering if you're talking about like is it almost

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Speaker 1: like your shadow, like the shadow part of you, like

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Speaker 1: the more in a Jungian world, you're that part is

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Speaker 1: living over here and you're not integrating the two.

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Speaker 2: I don't know, I don't I don't know if the

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Speaker 2: union idea of shadow would necessarily work here. Okay, yeah,

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Speaker 2: that that won't necessarily work, Okay, okay, But it's I

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Speaker 2: mean when people used dissociation, I mean sometimes it's sort

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Speaker 2: of I mean people, I mean, in extreme cases it

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Speaker 2: has to do with trauma. People associate from traumatic events

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Speaker 2: so that it doesn't take over their life, and then

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Speaker 2: they learn how to split certain experiences from their normal,

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Speaker 2: everyday life. But that that's in the case of trauma.

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Speaker 2: But on a mild and a milder version of it,

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Speaker 2: people compartmentalize. As you say, I mean, this is not everyone.

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Speaker 2: This is a particular line of defense that people use.

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Speaker 2: And then there's the question of like what I mean,

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Speaker 2: this is going back to the union idea, like where

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Speaker 2: is the cheating coming from and how much is it

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Speaker 2: related to the rest of life. Is the cheating kind

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Speaker 2: of an expression of one's shadow of something that is

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Speaker 2: not not coming into play in the main relationship. Is

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Speaker 2: it an attack on the relationship which certain cheating can be.

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Speaker 2: It's it's like a communication to one's partner unconsciously that

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Speaker 2: someone can be resentful angry. Is it like some kind

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Speaker 2: of reenactment of some past experience that I don't know,

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Speaker 2: Maybe they've seen their parents cheat on each other and

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Speaker 2: they're kind of reenacting that story to understand it in

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Speaker 2: some way. I mean, this cheating is like a really

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Speaker 2: complicated thing. It is not to mention that also putting

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Speaker 2: it in a cultural context, and in some relationships certain

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Speaker 2: kind of things are considered cheating, and in other relationships,

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Speaker 2: in a different context, it wouldn't be considered cheating, Right,

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Speaker 2: you're in an open relationship, or if I don't know,

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Speaker 2: you're an old school Mormon, or sure, sure, sure, sure.

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Speaker 1: So one thing I think that the fans like to

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Speaker 1: talk a lot about with this Aiden Big situation, which

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Speaker 1: does go on for many years. Right, these two men,

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Speaker 1: they're very different characters. She Carrie has incredible chemistry with both,

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Speaker 1: which is, you know, somewhat because of the actors playing

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Speaker 1: the characters having credible chemistry and are great actors. And

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Speaker 1: there are people who love Aiden and hate Big, and

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Speaker 1: people who hate Big and love Aiden, and blah blah blah,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's fascinating and it goes on and as

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Speaker 1: I'm rewatching, I am reminded of weird things about the

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Speaker 1: times that we were making the show. So late nineties,

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Speaker 1: so mister Big to me and I don't know, were

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Speaker 1: you in New York in the late nineties. Also, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was a very much a known prototype of man,

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Speaker 1: very much then. Especially. I mean, he was based on

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Speaker 1: a real person who was in the publishing world, very

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Speaker 1: high up in the publishing world. But he also seems

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Speaker 1: kind of like those financial guys, not like a stock

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Speaker 1: market guy, but like the higher up. You know. He's

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Speaker 1: like aloof but also super successful. And I think it

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Speaker 1: was kind of a like a desirable thing for men,

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Speaker 1: any young ladies in New York. Not me personally. I

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Speaker 1: was more into theater dudes, you know, but he was.

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Speaker 1: He was very much known. And when I first went back,

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Speaker 1: like known to us, you know, when I first went

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Speaker 1: back and looked at the beginning of the show, I

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Speaker 1: was shocked by how withholding his is like like he

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Speaker 1: is so covered and she is like chasing and chasing

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Speaker 1: and trying to get him to talk, and it just

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Speaker 1: broke my heart for her. But at the time I

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Speaker 1: also know that those thoughts never crossed my mind. They

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Speaker 1: never entered my mind. Yeah, because I was just so

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Speaker 1: used to it, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 2: It's just like the air, the air you.

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Speaker 1: Breathe exactly exactly. It didn't I would never have thought

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Speaker 1: those thoughts. Then I was just like, yeah, I love

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Speaker 1: mister Vegan turn and now when people talk about him

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Speaker 1: and then people are there's still some people who are

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Speaker 1: like mister big. Now, of course he does go on

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Speaker 1: for quite a long time, and he developed sen we

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Speaker 1: get to know him better and all of those things.

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Speaker 1: But then the other interesting thing because I was like

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Speaker 1: Aidan as well. Now I know both the actors, so

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Speaker 1: I'm not really objective, but when he comes, I don't

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Speaker 1: know if you remember this part. The very first time

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Speaker 1: they go out, she's smoking, she's smoking a lot, and

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Speaker 1: he says right away, you know, oh no, you know,

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Speaker 1: I can't date a smoker. And she's like, oh okay,

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Speaker 1: I'll just put them away, and she thinks she can

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Speaker 1: just casually not smoke, but then she starts really jonesing,

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Speaker 1: and it's a very kind of wonderful mirror of you know,

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Speaker 1: you meet someone, they're different, you love them, they might

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Speaker 1: not totally get you, but you're drawn to them. You know.

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Speaker 1: He's kind of the anti Big, But she's trying to

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Speaker 1: put a part of herself away so that she can

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Speaker 1: be with him. She's trying to pretend like I could

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Speaker 1: just quit smoking it's fine, but it's not that easy,

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Speaker 1: and it doesn't there's a part of him that doesn't

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Speaker 1: really seem to fully get her. Yeah, and that, to

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Speaker 1: me is also part of why she does end up

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Speaker 1: back with Big, even though he's Withholding. Yeah, but I

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Speaker 1: don't know if that's just me projecting.

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Speaker 2: Well interesting, I mean, first of all, I'm interested in

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Speaker 2: like the way we're our idea of what a man

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Speaker 2: is has changed. Yes, Like the first thing you talked about,

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Speaker 2: like the fact that at the time it didn't even

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Speaker 2: occur to you to think of him as withholding. Yep,

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Speaker 2: that there there used to be some in a way,

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Speaker 2: There used to be some way that we as women

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Speaker 2: or as a culture didn't see the full complexity of

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Speaker 2: what a man is. Yeah, and how it sucks to

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Speaker 2: be a man. Yeah, they have to perform to that

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Speaker 2: kind of standard. And like it's interesting.

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Speaker 1: Yes, it's like he was trapped in like a box,

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Speaker 1: like a wall.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's like it's supposed to be so great

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Speaker 2: to be a mister Big, but oh my god, that

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Speaker 2: I can imagine that being so stressful.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I agree to be that. Yeah, I agree fully. Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And then you're saying there's a in a way, like

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Speaker 2: a mirror image of that of like trying to be

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Speaker 2: the girl that Aiden wants. It's really you'd have to

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Speaker 2: think that. I mean, the optimistic way of thinking about

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Speaker 2: it is that as a society we are making some

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Speaker 2: progress towards like having like a wider range of how

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Speaker 2: we understand who we are as humans and the constraints

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Speaker 2: of gender. I'm just not sure that's actually happening, right.

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Speaker 1: It seems like it's trying to happen.

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Speaker 2: It's trying to happen, but there's yeah, there's a lot

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Speaker 2: of pushback on that.

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Speaker 1: I agree, And I'm just gonna have to bring something

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Speaker 1: because it's just so on my mind. But I don't

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Speaker 1: know if you've seen Heated Rivalry, No, oh my god, doctor, Oh,

385
00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:09,640
Speaker 1: it's so exciting. You have to watch it. We will

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Speaker 1: not be derailed by my obsession with this show, but

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Speaker 1: it is, in my mind the thing that I love

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Speaker 1: about it is that it is also a relationship show

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Speaker 1: that is moving things forward in the conversation, and people

390
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Speaker 1: are being drawn to it in a very powerful way

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Speaker 1: because I think they are hungry for progress in terms

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Speaker 1: of men and intimacy and how we can see this

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Speaker 1: playing out in a way that we also relate to

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Speaker 1: and aren't judging like it's so powerful, it's shocking. It's

395
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Speaker 1: about hockey. Okay, So I didn't watch it for months

396
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Speaker 1: and now I can not stop talking about it. But

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Speaker 1: it reminds me of when our show came on in

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Speaker 1: terms of, you know, there was this whole negative reaction

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Speaker 1: which we expected very much of, like, you know, women

400
00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:01,520
Speaker 1: don't talk this way, and you know, how dare they?

401
00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:04,560
Speaker 1: And I remember this one article. I've mentioned it many times.

402
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 1: Sorry listeners, you've heard me, But there's an article in

403
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Speaker 1: Wall Street Journal a male critic saying, you know, I

404
00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:15,080
Speaker 1: wouldn't date any of these women except maybe the nice

405
00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:18,639
Speaker 1: brunette one. Do you mean that was supposed to be

406
00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:21,240
Speaker 1: like a compliment to me. I'm like, no, no, that guy,

407
00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:23,439
Speaker 1: like you know what I'm saying. I mean, it was

408
00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:27,399
Speaker 1: just so intense and we expected it, but the joy

409
00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:33,040
Speaker 1: came in the wider embrace of women and gay men,

410
00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:37,320
Speaker 1: basically saying, oh, thank god, you know, someone's opening the

411
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Speaker 1: door to let some air in some light.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it was very exciting at the time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah it was, and it was exciting for us for sure.

414
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Speaker 1: And back to the expectations part, and we can just

415
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Speaker 1: bop around and I hope my listeners will come with us.

416
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Speaker 1: This is how I roll one time. And I think

417
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Speaker 1: it was right around the third season. This is when

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Speaker 1: the third season is when number one creatively. I feel

419
00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:02,000
Speaker 1: like everything started to really gel and these long storylines

420
00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:05,080
Speaker 1: started to pay off. And also, you know, more and

421
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:07,720
Speaker 1: more people were able to watch because HBO used to be,

422
00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:11,119
Speaker 1: you know, very kind of niche. They said to us,

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Speaker 1: we want to put you on the cover of Time magazine,

424
00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:16,840
Speaker 1: and we're like, oh my god, amazing. So they took

425
00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:19,520
Speaker 1: a picture and then they put on the title is

426
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Speaker 1: Who Needs a Husband? And it hangs in my closet

427
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Speaker 1: still because I really love it. I still really love it, right,

428
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Speaker 1: I mean like it was kind of revolutionary then. And

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Speaker 1: then if you look at the numbers now in terms

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00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:38,480
Speaker 1: of single women, women who are getting divorced and have

431
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:42,640
Speaker 1: no interest in getting remarried, women who are self sufficient economically.

432
00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:48,479
Speaker 1: You know, it's so thrilling the openings that have happened.

433
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:51,960
Speaker 1: And yes, there is a whole constricting sidebar, but I'd

434
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:53,760
Speaker 1: like to ignore them right now, you know. I just

435
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:56,600
Speaker 1: like to put them over there, because I do feel

436
00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:59,960
Speaker 1: like we want to progress. I feel like human beings

437
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:04,119
Speaker 1: want to progress and have more freedom. Everyone should have

438
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:06,159
Speaker 1: freedom to choose and be who they want to be

439
00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:09,920
Speaker 1: without judgment. That's how we're all going to be happier

440
00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:12,280
Speaker 1: and be kinder to each other and have a better

441
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:13,680
Speaker 1: world than in my opinion.

442
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:16,639
Speaker 2: And we also we still I mean there's still the

443
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:18,280
Speaker 2: problem of having to live with each other.

444
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:21,560
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, so we need.

445
00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:26,159
Speaker 2: We need certain kind of regulation constraints on ourselves. I

446
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:28,040
Speaker 2: mean there is still I mean, we're always going to

447
00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:32,280
Speaker 2: need socialization. Yes, you know, dogs socialize each other. We

448
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:35,840
Speaker 2: we we're gonna need somewhere. But it would be nice

449
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:37,280
Speaker 2: to have more breathing.

450
00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:41,880
Speaker 1: Group definitely, definitely, And I feel like that's the future.

451
00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:44,680
Speaker 1: I hope. It's just horribly bumpy right now, you know.

452
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:47,720
Speaker 1: And that's the thing that I love about what we

453
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:50,080
Speaker 1: do in our field is that, you know, we are

454
00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:53,760
Speaker 1: somewhat in a bubble. Sometimes people criticize that bubble and understand,

455
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:57,080
Speaker 1: but also you know, you can create things and the

456
00:26:57,119 --> 00:26:58,639
Speaker 1: people who want to find it can find it.

457
00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:02,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I also think that I mean, for example,

458
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:07,880
Speaker 2: this show, I mean, it's it's there's a certain kind

459
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:13,600
Speaker 2: of social responsibility of a show like yours, because you're

460
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:20,280
Speaker 2: you're you're putting out there the coordinates of how one

461
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:25,560
Speaker 2: can think of relationships, yes, and and and people look

462
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:30,159
Speaker 2: to that and and they measure themselves against that, you know,

463
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:35,359
Speaker 2: they they they I mean, TV is like the most

464
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:42,240
Speaker 2: powerful medium on earth now and it really tells people

465
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:48,800
Speaker 2: like how how can I live? What's okay? Right? What

466
00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:55,520
Speaker 2: makes sense? And what's intelligible. It's it's it's an important medium.

467
00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:58,320
Speaker 1: It really is. It really is, and it's important to

468
00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:01,720
Speaker 1: have choices within that. And that's what we have to

469
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:05,680
Speaker 1: keep pushing forward on. We're not even gonna talk about

470
00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:07,680
Speaker 1: where our industry is right now. But you know, the

471
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:09,600
Speaker 1: good people at HBO or fight in a good fight

472
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:12,240
Speaker 1: and they will continue to do so, so we love

473
00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:24,639
Speaker 1: them for that. Let's go back to carry in the

474
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:26,920
Speaker 1: cheating for a second. So I love because we're talking

475
00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:31,520
Speaker 1: to an expert. Okay, So We've got the situation where

476
00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:34,240
Speaker 1: we have Aiden and she would like to somehow be

477
00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 1: the girl that Aiden wants or that Aiden is seeing

478
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:42,240
Speaker 1: or projecting onto her right, but she's having internal struggles

479
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:46,080
Speaker 1: to do that, and you know, probably for other reasons. Also,

480
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:48,240
Speaker 1: she goes and cheats with Big. Now my question that

481
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:51,240
Speaker 1: I have, and again this is all my stuff. I

482
00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:53,719
Speaker 1: feel like she and Big have what I would call

483
00:28:53,880 --> 00:29:00,719
Speaker 1: unfinished business right, like they didn't really work things out fully.

484
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:04,280
Speaker 1: And that's a hard thing. Now I know that you

485
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:08,480
Speaker 1: cannot really necessarily complete or whatever you would like to

486
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 1: call it, sometimes without help, like you need some person

487
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:15,800
Speaker 1: like yourself or something to help you. But obviously Carrie

488
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:17,800
Speaker 1: is not a therapy person. She goes to therapy for

489
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:20,479
Speaker 1: one episode and ends up sleeping with a character there

490
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:23,560
Speaker 1: who's played by John bon Jovi, and at the end

491
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:26,200
Speaker 1: of that, yeah, you don't remember that. It's really funny.

492
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 1: It's really funny. She meets him in the waiting room

493
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 1: and of course he's Jump bon Jovi. He's very cute,

494
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:36,560
Speaker 1: and they go on a day there's a lot of chemistry.

495
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 1: Then they have sex and they're laying in bed afterwards,

496
00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:42,000
Speaker 1: and she says, oh, you know, I never asked you

497
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:43,960
Speaker 1: why are you? Why are you going to therapy? And

498
00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:47,680
Speaker 1: he goes, oh, I'm paraphrasing, but he goes, oh, I

499
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:50,040
Speaker 1: have this issue. You know, I sleep with women and

500
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:51,280
Speaker 1: then I never call them again.

501
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:53,680
Speaker 2: Oh god, it's terrible.

502
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:54,960
Speaker 1: It's terrible.

503
00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:55,960
Speaker 2: I know.

504
00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:58,120
Speaker 1: So she's like, well, I guess I just shouldn't go

505
00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:00,920
Speaker 1: to therapy. That's where she goes. That's her her solution

506
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:04,040
Speaker 1: to that is that's her out, that's her out exactly.

507
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:07,760
Speaker 1: I also had this other client, this client, not a client,

508
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:10,840
Speaker 1: a guest on the podcast who said to me, Oh,

509
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:14,160
Speaker 1: you know, I was watching from this perspective because one

510
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:15,480
Speaker 1: of the things I love about the show is like,

511
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,080
Speaker 1: at different times in your life, you'll see different things

512
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:21,640
Speaker 1: in the characters based on your own experience. And she said,

513
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:24,200
Speaker 1: when I was watching this time, I thought, what is

514
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:28,120
Speaker 1: Carrie's trauma? And I said, you know, we're never gonna

515
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 1: we're never going to look at that. We don't use

516
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:32,640
Speaker 1: that word in the show, but like, what do you

517
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:35,320
Speaker 1: make of that? Like that word is used a lot. Now,

518
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 1: what do you think of that?

519
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 2: Well, it's sometimes relevant, very relevant. I mean I have

520
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:44,640
Speaker 2: people that come into my office and like in a

521
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:47,720
Speaker 2: first session, I will already be asking that question because

522
00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:53,040
Speaker 2: it's very palpable in the room, that there's like haunting

523
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:56,600
Speaker 2: of something. Yes, but it's certainly not relevant the way

524
00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:01,600
Speaker 2: it's used now in the population. I mean, people use

525
00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:06,440
Speaker 2: the term trauma so loosely and so freely it's disturbing.

526
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:11,560
Speaker 2: I mean, the fact that people go through hardships, or

527
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:17,479
Speaker 2: have difficult periods in their lives, or get particularly upset

528
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:22,200
Speaker 2: by certain things that is not trauma. And the fact

529
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:25,960
Speaker 2: that early experiences in life shape later in life doesn't

530
00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:31,640
Speaker 2: mean you've had trauma. In my world, in the therapeutic world,

531
00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:38,040
Speaker 2: the or trauma is used very you know, decipheringly, like you,

532
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:42,840
Speaker 2: trauma is something that really exceeds your capacity to process.

533
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:47,240
Speaker 2: It's something very abnormal that shatters something in you. It's

534
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:54,840
Speaker 2: not just difficulty. And in that sense, I mean, honestly,

535
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:58,560
Speaker 2: I don't think I've thought even once watching Sex and

536
00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:01,600
Speaker 2: the City about trauma within of the characters got it.

537
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 2: I agree, it seemed to me like pretty healthy, alive people.

538
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:11,280
Speaker 2: It never occurred to me to ask that question. That's good.

539
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:13,480
Speaker 1: I agree with you totally. I agree with you, and

540
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:16,000
Speaker 1: I think also just from a writing perspective. What we

541
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:18,880
Speaker 1: were trying to do was not be trying to dig

542
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:22,480
Speaker 1: back words, you know, because most people are just living

543
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:24,840
Speaker 1: their lives and doing the best they can and struggling

544
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:26,800
Speaker 1: with the things that they're struggling with that we're all

545
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:29,280
Speaker 1: struggling with, which is really the point of the show,

546
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:33,239
Speaker 1: you know. Yes, And I wouldn't. I don't look at

547
00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:36,000
Speaker 1: carry and think what's her trauma? Either? I mean, I think,

548
00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:38,760
Speaker 1: as you said, sometimes we are playing out something that

549
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:41,520
Speaker 1: might be based on your childhood that you don't know

550
00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:45,480
Speaker 1: that you haven't unearthed. But that's not necessarily right, that's

551
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:48,800
Speaker 1: not trauma, that's just let right, that's just.

552
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 2: Being a layered person who carries a history. And sometimes

553
00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:55,480
Speaker 2: the history is even before your parents. It could be

554
00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:57,160
Speaker 2: your grandparents. You know.

555
00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:03,440
Speaker 1: Yes, trauma, right, that's important. I think that's important to say. Now.

556
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:05,440
Speaker 1: Could we also just touch for a second on the

557
00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:09,360
Speaker 1: narcissist thing and how everyone online wants to call everyone

558
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:11,720
Speaker 1: else a narcissist? What is going on?

559
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:17,440
Speaker 2: Yeah? Well, again, similar to what I said about trauma,

560
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 2: In my professional world, we use the term narcissists for

561
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:28,640
Speaker 2: only very particular situations and particular personality organizations. People can

562
00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:35,560
Speaker 2: be selfish, people can be annoying, they can be disappointing.

563
00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 2: It doesn't make them narcissists. The fact that somebody is

564
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:43,000
Speaker 2: not giving you what you want from them doesn't make

565
00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:43,959
Speaker 2: them a narcissist.

566
00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:47,000
Speaker 1: Good point. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I could.

567
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:49,840
Speaker 2: Be disappointing in many different ways and maybe a good

568
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:53,160
Speaker 2: reason to turn away from them or not. But narcissism

569
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:58,080
Speaker 2: is not necessarily what we're talking about, right. Narcissism in

570
00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:04,040
Speaker 2: professional terms has to do with a real kind of

571
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:10,080
Speaker 2: fragility in sorry to use technical terms, but like the

572
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:16,480
Speaker 2: ego structure, where there's the person has to gather up

573
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:19,640
Speaker 2: a lot of resources to keep shoring up their sense

574
00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 2: of self, which leaves them quite fragile and leaves them

575
00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:26,720
Speaker 2: with little that they can give outside of themselves because

576
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:32,920
Speaker 2: they keep having to re pull together their very damaged,

577
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:39,520
Speaker 2: yeah damage sense of self. It's a very particular personality

578
00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:45,279
Speaker 2: organization that is quite painful for the narcissists themselves. They

579
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:51,360
Speaker 2: might need to put up a lot of bolstering and

580
00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:55,040
Speaker 2: show around them, but it's really based around something quite

581
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:59,000
Speaker 2: a deep deficit. But there are other ways that people

582
00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:01,920
Speaker 2: use the term narcis that are just basically expressing their

583
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:04,320
Speaker 2: frustration with the people around them, right.

584
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:07,360
Speaker 1: I think like they basically mean selfish. They perceive the

585
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:11,680
Speaker 1: other persons being selfish, which is obviously not does not

586
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:16,520
Speaker 1: equate to a full narcissistic person. Or there's also narcissistic

587
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:19,360
Speaker 1: tendencies right, right, which we.

588
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:23,920
Speaker 2: All can have narcissistic tendencies. Anyone who's like looked at children,

589
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:27,960
Speaker 2: I mean children start off with plenty of ego centrism

590
00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:33,000
Speaker 2: and narcissistic tendencies and attempts to build the ego, and

591
00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:36,799
Speaker 2: we can all revert back to that under certain conditions.

592
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:41,160
Speaker 2: There are some people that under the best conditions are

593
00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:45,400
Speaker 2: like the most generous and open as they can be.

594
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:49,680
Speaker 2: But you put them under conditions of stress or conditions

595
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:53,759
Speaker 2: that threaten them, and they will become they will they're

596
00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:59,440
Speaker 2: narcissistic tendencies will show up, right, So that's not narcissist.

597
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:03,560
Speaker 1: Described narcissism to me one time as like the person

598
00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:08,239
Speaker 1: has had to create a house of cards for their identity,

599
00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:11,880
Speaker 1: and so it's a very fragile thing that's been built.

600
00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:14,480
Speaker 1: And then if one gets pulled out, like if an

601
00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:17,719
Speaker 1: event or a personal situation is like so stressful to

602
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:19,279
Speaker 1: them as like one gets pulled out and the whole

603
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:24,200
Speaker 1: thing falls, and then there can be very i don't

604
00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:28,319
Speaker 1: know what, like a defensive type behavior because they're trying

605
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:33,239
Speaker 1: to protect the fragile. It helped me. I mean, there's

606
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:35,040
Speaker 1: a lot of people in our industry who might be

607
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:38,640
Speaker 1: having some narcissistic tendencies at least, so it was helpful

608
00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:41,360
Speaker 1: to think about it because it's very easy to just feel,

609
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:45,279
Speaker 1: you know, upset about how that person might be acting. Right,

610
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:47,520
Speaker 1: But then if you try to actually think about what's

611
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:50,440
Speaker 1: happening inside them, you have a lot more empathy. Which

612
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:52,200
Speaker 1: doesn't mean you don't have to protect yourself from it,

613
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:55,640
Speaker 1: but you can at least have some empathy for what

614
00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 1: is happening over there and maybe some understanding.

615
00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:01,160
Speaker 2: I guess like that description a lot.

616
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:03,320
Speaker 1: Well, thank you, thank you. It was a professional like

617
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:07,480
Speaker 1: yourself who told me it was really helpful.

618
00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:07,640
Speaker 2: Though.

619
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:09,600
Speaker 1: It was really helpful because sometimes you're just like why

620
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:11,840
Speaker 1: why is this person acting like this? Like what what

621
00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:15,000
Speaker 1: what is happening? I'm just over here doing like normal

622
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:18,360
Speaker 1: nice things and they're like upset with me. But somehow

623
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:21,040
Speaker 1: you you're you're in a situation with them that has

624
00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:24,440
Speaker 1: pushed buttons or you know, threatened them in some way, or.

625
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:27,799
Speaker 2: Can I can I ask you a couple of questions. Yes,

626
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:31,840
Speaker 2: I have both a question about the episode that we

627
00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:35,520
Speaker 2: were focusing on, and I have a more general question okay,

628
00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:39,800
Speaker 2: but more specifically about the episode. How did you feel

629
00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:46,960
Speaker 2: about the whole preenup, the prenup and especially like the

630
00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:50,879
Speaker 2: allocation of extra funds for the boy?

631
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:54,319
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I mean I was so stressed by

632
00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:57,400
Speaker 1: the whole thing, and you know, it was It's interesting

633
00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:00,719
Speaker 1: because I'm not somebody who's ever focused on man. I

634
00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:03,719
Speaker 1: come from the South where everyone was like that, So

635
00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:08,000
Speaker 1: it really was, you know, playing Charlotte in general, who

636
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:11,279
Speaker 1: wants these things so badly? And I certainly knew people

637
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:15,960
Speaker 1: who felt that they needed to fulfill these expectations of

638
00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:19,600
Speaker 1: society and whatnot. It pushed a lot of buttons for me.

639
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:22,320
Speaker 1: And sometimes I would just be like, oh god, you know,

640
00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:24,960
Speaker 1: and I would want to really like my own Christian

641
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:29,040
Speaker 1: reaction would be much bigger, probably than Charlotte's. But because

642
00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:33,839
Speaker 1: Charlotte is Charlotte, you know, I had to really work

643
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:37,480
Speaker 1: hard to filter my own, my own thoughts and feelings.

644
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:41,279
Speaker 1: And when I watched back and Miranda. We're at that

645
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:43,799
Speaker 1: scene where Miranda is reading the prenup, and I mean

646
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:46,640
Speaker 1: Charlotte in general just doesn't even want a prenup because

647
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:49,200
Speaker 1: to her, that's not romance, that's not love, you know,

648
00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:53,319
Speaker 1: which I fully fully get. Of course, if I ever

649
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:55,239
Speaker 1: did get married, which I don't expect you, I would

650
00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:57,520
Speaker 1: definitely have a prenup. But you know, I get that

651
00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:00,480
Speaker 1: she's just like, you know, she doesn't want to live

652
00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:05,240
Speaker 1: in reality. She Charlotte is you know, she has created

653
00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:09,480
Speaker 1: an elaborate, beautiful world in her mind and I really

654
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:12,640
Speaker 1: relate to that part, and she doesn't want to be

655
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:17,279
Speaker 1: brought down to life. And part of the whole Tray relationship,

656
00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:19,880
Speaker 1: as it was presented to me before we filmed it

657
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:21,680
Speaker 1: was that that this is what it was going to be.

658
00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:23,560
Speaker 1: On the one hand, it was going to look like

659
00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:27,520
Speaker 1: the shiny perfect goal and the reality was going to

660
00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:30,400
Speaker 1: be very, very different, and she was going to have

661
00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:35,600
Speaker 1: to try to find out who she was it within

662
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:39,080
Speaker 1: those two things not matching, which I loved because that

663
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:40,759
Speaker 1: is it's life, right.

664
00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:43,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's chapter two of my book.

665
00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:45,320
Speaker 1: Are Fantastic. I can't wait to read it.

666
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:47,840
Speaker 2: I might use the character go for it, babe.

667
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:51,239
Speaker 1: So when we got to the prenup thing, I was

668
00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:54,320
Speaker 1: very scared about that whole episode. I was scared mostly

669
00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:56,439
Speaker 1: about when I have to say to Bunny, I'm worth

670
00:39:56,480 --> 00:40:02,359
Speaker 1: a million. Yeah, partly because it he's just so profoundly uncomfortable,

671
00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:07,120
Speaker 1: you know, to be not not that I didn't want

672
00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:09,359
Speaker 1: to try to stand up. I thought that it's great

673
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:11,479
Speaker 1: that Charlotte's trying to stand up for herself, but also

674
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:14,680
Speaker 1: it's just like embarrassing to be to be putting a

675
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:17,360
Speaker 1: number on yourself, what the heck, you know. And I

676
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:20,160
Speaker 1: remember at the time there were a few times in

677
00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:23,880
Speaker 1: this storyline, because it's really the more in depth storyline

678
00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:26,680
Speaker 1: so far that I've gotten right where there'd just be

679
00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:29,279
Speaker 1: a lot of the writers would just be like Jenny Biks,

680
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:31,239
Speaker 1: who wrote this episode, would be like, you know, you

681
00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:34,880
Speaker 1: have to really like they were just very anxious about

682
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:36,439
Speaker 1: what I was going to do. So I was trying

683
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:39,920
Speaker 1: to find they want. They wanted me to like really

684
00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:43,680
Speaker 1: powerfully present myself to Bunny, but my feeling was I'm

685
00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:49,040
Speaker 1: still Charlotte, so you know, her version of powerful is

686
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:53,120
Speaker 1: not going to be my version of powerful necessarily. And

687
00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:56,319
Speaker 1: also I'm much much younger at this point. I've never

688
00:40:56,480 --> 00:40:59,080
Speaker 1: been in any of these situations, and I just just

689
00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:02,239
Speaker 1: felt like it's it's uncomfortable, you know. And when I

690
00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:05,120
Speaker 1: watched it, I did like it better than I expected

691
00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:08,800
Speaker 1: because it's simple. I thought it was good that it

692
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:12,880
Speaker 1: was simple. And also Frances Stern Haggen just such a

693
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:16,239
Speaker 1: great actress who played Bunny and so present with me,

694
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:18,960
Speaker 1: which is always so helpful. But when we looked at

695
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:22,680
Speaker 1: the scene of Miranda reading the prenup, I was just

696
00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:27,440
Speaker 1: gagged that there's a price for boys and no, Also like,

697
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:31,480
Speaker 1: what on earth, Like, I mean, tear that paper up?

698
00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:34,560
Speaker 1: You know, that's my feeling. I was shocked. I didn't

699
00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:36,680
Speaker 1: even really remember it, and I wish there was a

700
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:39,160
Speaker 1: whole time too where they used to say to me

701
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:46,319
Speaker 1: Charlotte wouldn't get angry, and I was like, you guys, what, Yeah,

702
00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:50,160
Speaker 1: like what is she doing with all these feelings? Then?

703
00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:53,560
Speaker 1: Like what is happening? And I remember towards the end

704
00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:55,839
Speaker 1: of the when the tray situation is not going well

705
00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:58,360
Speaker 1: and we're not having sex, which is of course horrible,

706
00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:01,440
Speaker 1: and you know, he doesn't really want to work on it,

707
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:04,680
Speaker 1: which is all so horrible, And eventually I do kind

708
00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:07,800
Speaker 1: of get to start to get angry, thank god. But

709
00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:09,920
Speaker 1: I had said to them, you know, you guys, in

710
00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:12,640
Speaker 1: Charlotte's white apartment, there's going to be a closet, and

711
00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:14,440
Speaker 1: you're going to open the closet and there's going to

712
00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:16,239
Speaker 1: be little body parts of all the men that she's

713
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:17,879
Speaker 1: chopped up and wrapped in cell a fane and put

714
00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:20,760
Speaker 1: in there. Because that's what would happen if she literally

715
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:25,520
Speaker 1: is never angry, Like, yeah, right, that's insane. So but

716
00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:27,839
Speaker 1: I think also in the beginning, we had the kind

717
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:30,600
Speaker 1: of archetypes of who the characters were supposed to be,

718
00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:33,840
Speaker 1: and over time we got to deepen and deepen and

719
00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:37,840
Speaker 1: you know, expand. But what did you think when you

720
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:38,879
Speaker 1: when you saw that part.

721
00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:45,280
Speaker 2: Well, generally, I have I'm very fond of Charlotte's character.

722
00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:49,239
Speaker 2: I mean, I just think she's holding on to like

723
00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:54,800
Speaker 2: a certain kind of idealism or optimism that I you knows,

724
00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:58,400
Speaker 2: as a realist as I am, I have that in me.

725
00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:01,400
Speaker 2: It's very important for a couples therapist, for therapists generally

726
00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:06,279
Speaker 2: to have that. So so her sweetness and her idealism

727
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:09,480
Speaker 2: always speak to me. But that part of it, I

728
00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:14,000
Speaker 2: was just like this is not too much too much.

729
00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:17,440
Speaker 1: Definitely agree, definitely and like the.

730
00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:24,720
Speaker 2: Like the it connected me to the way I feel

731
00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:28,640
Speaker 2: about like you know, like I had a friend years ago,

732
00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:31,440
Speaker 2: a woman who said to me, I would never go

733
00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:35,200
Speaker 2: to a female doctor. Oh, And I was like, how

734
00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:39,040
Speaker 2: is it that women have internalized this kind of self hating?

735
00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:44,239
Speaker 2: Like how what this bunny? Like what what do you

736
00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:49,800
Speaker 2: mean a prenup? The like values boys more like women

737
00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:56,359
Speaker 2: internalize this this exploitation Like yes, I don't know, it's

738
00:43:56,560 --> 00:43:57,120
Speaker 2: it's maddening.

739
00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:01,719
Speaker 1: I mean, that's another whole book. Yeah, we have so

740
00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:06,000
Speaker 1: much evidence in the world of this deep internalization of

741
00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:10,600
Speaker 1: the patriarchy. It's really mind boggling. And it goes on

742
00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:13,879
Speaker 1: and on. But also I have a fourteen year old daughter,

743
00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:17,880
Speaker 1: and it's interesting, you know, she's really at the age

744
00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:20,840
Speaker 1: where I struggle with how much to tell her about

745
00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:24,080
Speaker 1: the world, you know, and how deep to go. No

746
00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:26,279
Speaker 1: one really talked to me when I was that age

747
00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:30,480
Speaker 1: about these things. But I do feel like my eyes

748
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:33,760
Speaker 1: have really been opened by life. You know, I'm sixty,

749
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:36,000
Speaker 1: so I've obviously seen a lot, been through a lot,

750
00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:39,440
Speaker 1: and you know, with things going on now, you know,

751
00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:45,200
Speaker 1: such as the Epstein files like, it's huge. It purred

752
00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:48,000
Speaker 1: me so much of our daily lives.

753
00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:50,240
Speaker 2: It's everywhere, all the time.

754
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:53,880
Speaker 1: Exactly, And so I do feel I've started to without

755
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:56,520
Speaker 1: I try not to scare her. I don't want her

756
00:44:56,640 --> 00:44:59,200
Speaker 1: to be riddled with fear, but at the same time,

757
00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:01,359
Speaker 1: I I feel like I need to say to her,

758
00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:06,040
Speaker 1: you know, there's this situation in life, ye unfortunately that

759
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:06,560
Speaker 1: you need.

760
00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:10,000
Speaker 2: To be aware of but and fight not be afraid.

761
00:45:10,239 --> 00:45:15,160
Speaker 1: Absolutely, yes, yeah, absolutely, but like for her because I

762
00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:18,000
Speaker 1: should probably not say all this, but you know, sometimes

763
00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:20,160
Speaker 1: she wants to do things, you know how she's fourteen.

764
00:45:20,239 --> 00:45:21,640
Speaker 1: She wants to go out with her friends and do

765
00:45:21,719 --> 00:45:23,319
Speaker 1: things or whatever. And I'm like, no, you can't go there.

766
00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:26,000
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I have to go with you. And she's like, no, mom,

767
00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:28,399
Speaker 1: no one else's mom comes And I said, well, maybe

768
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:31,560
Speaker 1: I'll stay a little distance and just watch, you know.

769
00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:34,399
Speaker 1: I mean, like, I just have anxiety about her out

770
00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:36,600
Speaker 1: in the world alone with her friends, because I don't

771
00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:39,920
Speaker 1: feel at fourteen that they really know all of the

772
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:43,680
Speaker 1: things that could happen. They don't, right, thank you. I

773
00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:45,719
Speaker 1: need you to call her and tell her, because she

774
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:48,040
Speaker 1: says to me, she says to me, Mom, I would

775
00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:51,840
Speaker 1: know if someone had bad intentions. I'm like, baby, no, no,

776
00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:55,719
Speaker 1: so cute that you think that. And then she's like,

777
00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:58,960
Speaker 1: I would just punch them, and like that is adorable.

778
00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:02,080
Speaker 1: But it's so much more complicated, you know. But it's

779
00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:07,680
Speaker 1: like the it's such a conundrum about like safety versus

780
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:11,560
Speaker 1: knowledge versus feeling powerful. You want them to feel powerful

781
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:15,160
Speaker 1: within it, not that it's like overwhelming and going to

782
00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:18,000
Speaker 1: get them. But on the other hand, it does permeate everything.

783
00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:22,879
Speaker 2: It does. I don't think we can I don't think

784
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:27,520
Speaker 2: as parents we can like deal with a safety issue

785
00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:30,080
Speaker 2: other than you know, like you're saying, like be there

786
00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:33,560
Speaker 2: and watch. But safety is something that's mostly out of

787
00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:38,879
Speaker 2: our hands. But what we can do is like help

788
00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:44,880
Speaker 2: our kids understand what are the ideological forces that are

789
00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:48,719
Speaker 2: right in front of them, like patriarchy, like the way

790
00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:58,399
Speaker 2: masculinity is defined absolutely, you know, women internalizing patriarchy. It's

791
00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:01,319
Speaker 2: those are the two that I think as parents, it's

792
00:47:01,480 --> 00:47:05,839
Speaker 2: really important to kind of keep giving our kids.

793
00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:08,440
Speaker 1: Great good I'm doing that. I'll keep doing that. That's good.

794
00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:21,000
Speaker 1: That's good. So wait, what else were you going to

795
00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:22,200
Speaker 1: ask me? You said, questions?

796
00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:24,560
Speaker 2: I was going to ask you more in general about

797
00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:31,800
Speaker 2: the gap between you and the character. How does that?

798
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:35,920
Speaker 1: It's funny because now it's been twenty eight years that

799
00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:37,960
Speaker 1: i've been playing a right not the whole time. We've

800
00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:40,680
Speaker 1: had breaks, obviously, but people are always asking me like,

801
00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:43,480
Speaker 1: where's the difference, And when we started, people would ask

802
00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:45,480
Speaker 1: me that, and I get to have a very specific

803
00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:49,440
Speaker 1: list of like this is Charlotte characteristics, these are Christian characteristics.

804
00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:51,520
Speaker 1: But after all this time, it's really hard to do.

805
00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:55,120
Speaker 1: But I don't feel I feel like she's part of me,

806
00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:57,840
Speaker 1: but she's not me, you know what I'm saying. But

807
00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:00,440
Speaker 1: she is me because she's not someone else. You know

808
00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:03,680
Speaker 1: what I'm saying. It's weird. It's a weird thing. But

809
00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:06,840
Speaker 1: I love her. I love her desperately. You know.

810
00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:09,160
Speaker 2: She's very lovable, she really is.

811
00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:13,120
Speaker 1: And she's lovable because she really tries hard, you know,

812
00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:17,839
Speaker 1: and she is willing to change. Like her the whole

813
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:21,040
Speaker 1: idea of the Tray situation was that she was going

814
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:24,239
Speaker 1: to be pursuing this goal. No matter what she was

815
00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:26,000
Speaker 1: going to get it. It wasn't going to be what

816
00:48:26,120 --> 00:48:28,080
Speaker 1: she thought. It was going to look great on the outside,

817
00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:30,279
Speaker 1: not be great on the inside, and she was going

818
00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:31,920
Speaker 1: to have to deal with that, like what does that

819
00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:34,840
Speaker 1: really mean to her? How important is it to actually

820
00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:37,600
Speaker 1: have the true love she talks about? Right? Yea, and

821
00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:41,160
Speaker 1: thank god she she It was not easy, right. And

822
00:48:41,239 --> 00:48:44,200
Speaker 1: also the first idea was that Kyle would only come

823
00:48:44,239 --> 00:48:46,239
Speaker 1: in as Tray for like five episodes. It would all

824
00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:49,080
Speaker 1: happen very quickly, but that he would be very dull.

825
00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:51,719
Speaker 1: He was supposed to be very boring, like that kind

826
00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:53,640
Speaker 1: of couple where like no one wants to talk to

827
00:48:53,760 --> 00:48:56,040
Speaker 1: the other person, like the friends are like, who's going

828
00:48:56,120 --> 00:48:58,000
Speaker 1: to talk to the husband? You know, like that. But

829
00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:01,680
Speaker 1: he was played by Kyle, so he wasn't very boring.

830
00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:05,600
Speaker 1: He was fantastic and all of us were just collectively

831
00:49:05,920 --> 00:49:09,120
Speaker 1: in love with him, right, So he stayed and it

832
00:49:09,239 --> 00:49:12,719
Speaker 1: became more complex as a result of us loving him

833
00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:15,080
Speaker 1: so much and what he brought to the character and

834
00:49:15,120 --> 00:49:18,200
Speaker 1: how kind of you know, off he made it just

835
00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:22,080
Speaker 1: slightly offbeat and interesting in terms of you didn't know

836
00:49:22,239 --> 00:49:26,560
Speaker 1: what was happening over there. Yeah. So then he stayed longer,

837
00:49:26,600 --> 00:49:28,399
Speaker 1: which I thought was good, and we got to kind

838
00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:30,359
Speaker 1: of I haven't rewatched all, but we got to kind

839
00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:33,040
Speaker 1: of go deeper into you know, what are the issues

840
00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:35,480
Speaker 1: with the intimacy? What's that about? And then she tries

841
00:49:35,560 --> 00:49:37,440
Speaker 1: to hall MD to therapy, but he doesn't really want

842
00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:42,040
Speaker 1: to participate, which is really heartbreaking. You know, when you

843
00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:44,440
Speaker 1: have the things that you think are going to be

844
00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:48,640
Speaker 1: amazing for your entire future. Like Charlotte is loyal. You know,

845
00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:51,200
Speaker 1: she's going to try her best, and I love that

846
00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:54,640
Speaker 1: about her. But then when it falls apart and Harry

847
00:49:54,719 --> 00:49:57,759
Speaker 1: shows up as her divorce lawyer, who looks nothing like

848
00:49:57,880 --> 00:50:00,560
Speaker 1: anything she would ever have thought of, but in fact

849
00:50:00,760 --> 00:50:04,879
Speaker 1: truly inside who she needs and wants, and she makes

850
00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:09,680
Speaker 1: it work and she pivots, you know, she changes. Love that, Yeah,

851
00:50:10,120 --> 00:50:12,560
Speaker 1: love that. I love him And we just saw him

852
00:50:12,640 --> 00:50:14,600
Speaker 1: last night. We gave Sara Jesska an award, which was

853
00:50:14,640 --> 00:50:17,360
Speaker 1: so wonderful, and Evan came and you know, I just

854
00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:19,560
Speaker 1: he was on the press line with me. And I

855
00:50:19,680 --> 00:50:22,040
Speaker 1: take Evan for granted so much because I've had him

856
00:50:22,080 --> 00:50:25,080
Speaker 1: so long, but like just hearing his voice just gives

857
00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:28,439
Speaker 1: me so much comfort, Like just working together over time,

858
00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:30,880
Speaker 1: you know, in the way that we've been able to

859
00:50:31,040 --> 00:50:33,279
Speaker 1: all of our people. I feel that way about But

860
00:50:33,760 --> 00:50:36,439
Speaker 1: you know, he's really been with me for a long time.

861
00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:38,120
Speaker 2: Like it's kind of amazing.

862
00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:41,280
Speaker 1: But I love that about Charlotte. I love that Charlotte,

863
00:50:41,320 --> 00:50:43,600
Speaker 1: you know, like also with her children. She has these children,

864
00:50:43,719 --> 00:50:45,480
Speaker 1: she thinks they're going to be a certain way. Of

865
00:50:45,560 --> 00:50:48,520
Speaker 1: course they're not. She has to pivot again, you know.

866
00:50:48,719 --> 00:50:52,360
Speaker 1: I love the ability, even though she doesn't appear on

867
00:50:52,440 --> 00:50:54,440
Speaker 1: the outside, like she's the person who's going to be

868
00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:56,759
Speaker 1: able to do that, the insights, she's going to do

869
00:50:56,840 --> 00:50:59,160
Speaker 1: the work to try to get there. I love that

870
00:50:59,239 --> 00:51:03,080
Speaker 1: about her. Yeah, but it is sometimes hard to separate.

871
00:51:03,200 --> 00:51:03,560
Speaker 1: For sure.

872
00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:08,040
Speaker 2: She has she changed you.

873
00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:11,319
Speaker 1: I mean I think so. You know, that's that's a hard,

874
00:51:11,520 --> 00:51:15,320
Speaker 1: hard thing. It's hard to say because obviously the experience

875
00:51:15,560 --> 00:51:18,440
Speaker 1: of doing the show has changed me. It's changed all

876
00:51:18,480 --> 00:51:21,120
Speaker 1: of our lives so much. Sure, and we love each

877
00:51:21,160 --> 00:51:25,719
Speaker 1: other so much, and we've been through this just insane experience,

878
00:51:26,040 --> 00:51:28,720
Speaker 1: you know, for twenty eight years. I mean, we've filmed

879
00:51:28,760 --> 00:51:31,200
Speaker 1: a film in Morocco, like we you know, we've traveled

880
00:51:31,239 --> 00:51:35,680
Speaker 1: the world. It's just been unbelievable. Plus we've spent eighteen

881
00:51:35,719 --> 00:51:38,759
Speaker 1: hours a day together for years. Right, So it's a

882
00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:45,760
Speaker 1: very unusual and deep and intimate relationship with the actual

883
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:49,200
Speaker 1: people behind the camera and on camera. That's hard to

884
00:51:49,320 --> 00:51:54,040
Speaker 1: separate characters. Yeah, yeah, the characters. We've all been with

885
00:51:54,120 --> 00:51:57,160
Speaker 1: our characters forever, and we've all been in these scenes together, right,

886
00:51:57,280 --> 00:52:01,279
Speaker 1: so like yeah, just as an actor knowing the other

887
00:52:01,440 --> 00:52:07,720
Speaker 1: actors so well, yeah, it is. It's just so unique

888
00:52:07,760 --> 00:52:12,000
Speaker 1: and amazing and I'm so grateful. I cannot I could

889
00:52:12,080 --> 00:52:15,760
Speaker 1: never have dreamt of this, you know, as an actor,

890
00:52:16,040 --> 00:52:18,160
Speaker 1: you're just trying to find any job, you know, for

891
00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:21,960
Speaker 1: two months or whatever. But it's just been a bounty

892
00:52:22,239 --> 00:52:26,040
Speaker 1: of joy and depth, and you know, we've been through

893
00:52:26,080 --> 00:52:28,759
Speaker 1: it all together really, so it's been incredible and I

894
00:52:28,800 --> 00:52:32,160
Speaker 1: can't really at this point kind of separate them out

895
00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:35,480
Speaker 1: really yeah. Yeah, but in a good way, you know,

896
00:52:36,239 --> 00:52:39,279
Speaker 1: in a good way. Okay, wait, let's talk about cheating again,

897
00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:43,879
Speaker 1: because I do feel like people are just fascinated by

898
00:52:43,960 --> 00:52:46,560
Speaker 1: this and talk about I feel like, in the world

899
00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:53,520
Speaker 1: cheating and or just sexuality chemistry, like it's so confusing

900
00:52:53,920 --> 00:52:56,120
Speaker 1: to think about, Like, Okay, so Big and Carrie have

901
00:52:56,200 --> 00:52:58,360
Speaker 1: this chemistry, right, And she says at one point, like

902
00:52:58,760 --> 00:53:01,719
Speaker 1: why does something so oh bad feels so good? And

903
00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:06,080
Speaker 1: Samantha says, well, it's created that way. Like as a therapist, Well,

904
00:53:06,120 --> 00:53:10,280
Speaker 1: how would you advise clients about such things?

905
00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:15,280
Speaker 2: Are you asking me? What do I advise clients about cheating?

906
00:53:15,520 --> 00:53:18,080
Speaker 1: Yeah? Or just a chemistry part or you know what

907
00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:18,440
Speaker 1: I mean?

908
00:53:18,600 --> 00:53:21,240
Speaker 2: Like, I know that's hard to diplomatically avoid that question.

909
00:53:22,440 --> 00:53:25,960
Speaker 1: Okay, fair enough, fair enough, I guess it's hard to know,

910
00:53:26,520 --> 00:53:29,400
Speaker 1: Like I mean for myself as a single person, right,

911
00:53:29,480 --> 00:53:31,359
Speaker 1: And there's all these people who talk about Like I'm

912
00:53:31,400 --> 00:53:32,920
Speaker 1: this one friend who said to me, like, you need

913
00:53:33,000 --> 00:53:35,120
Speaker 1: to go out and be bored on a date. And

914
00:53:35,160 --> 00:53:37,600
Speaker 1: I was like, but why come on, I'd rather be

915
00:53:37,680 --> 00:53:39,239
Speaker 1: home with my kids. I don't want to go be

916
00:53:39,360 --> 00:53:42,040
Speaker 1: bored on a date, you know. But she's like, you

917
00:53:42,160 --> 00:53:44,759
Speaker 1: need to do something different. I'm like, yeah, yeah, I

918
00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:45,080
Speaker 1: get it.

919
00:53:45,160 --> 00:53:45,440
Speaker 2: I get it.

920
00:53:45,719 --> 00:53:47,680
Speaker 1: And not that I want to dissect my own self

921
00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:50,560
Speaker 1: necessarily though obviously partly I do, or I wouldn't bring

922
00:53:50,640 --> 00:53:56,920
Speaker 1: that up. But okay, so, like it's it's hard for

923
00:53:57,080 --> 00:54:02,840
Speaker 1: me to want to do that, Like, if there's not chemistry,

924
00:54:03,080 --> 00:54:06,719
Speaker 1: I don't see the fucking point. Is that just me

925
00:54:07,000 --> 00:54:09,719
Speaker 1: being like not grown up? No?

926
00:54:10,160 --> 00:54:14,160
Speaker 2: I look, there are many there are many channels that

927
00:54:16,360 --> 00:54:20,880
Speaker 2: make us want to connect to other people to attach, right,

928
00:54:20,920 --> 00:54:24,319
Speaker 2: And it depends on what what's the primary need you're

929
00:54:24,440 --> 00:54:27,759
Speaker 2: operating from. I mean, do you are you? I mean

930
00:54:27,840 --> 00:54:31,000
Speaker 2: it sounds like you're saying what you're looking for is

931
00:54:31,080 --> 00:54:31,960
Speaker 2: something interesting?

932
00:54:32,280 --> 00:54:33,759
Speaker 1: Yes, so.

933
00:54:35,280 --> 00:54:38,120
Speaker 2: Great, that's what you need right now, because probably you

934
00:54:38,280 --> 00:54:40,680
Speaker 2: have a lot of the other things already dealt with

935
00:54:40,840 --> 00:54:43,600
Speaker 2: in your life. I do, And that's the thing that

936
00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:51,160
Speaker 2: you're looking for. I mean, someone else might be seeking security, right.

937
00:54:51,200 --> 00:54:54,400
Speaker 1: See. I never understood that stability, right, I never understood

938
00:54:54,440 --> 00:54:58,160
Speaker 1: that either that people would need that, that you would

939
00:54:58,160 --> 00:54:59,839
Speaker 1: look to a man for that. I don't. I don't

940
00:55:00,239 --> 00:55:02,440
Speaker 1: feel I don't that doesn't.

941
00:55:02,200 --> 00:55:05,440
Speaker 2: Forget about man, not man. But you can imagine that

942
00:55:05,600 --> 00:55:07,560
Speaker 2: certain people, let's say, I mean it doesn't have to

943
00:55:07,640 --> 00:55:09,640
Speaker 2: be related to this, but let's say they've had a

944
00:55:09,880 --> 00:55:16,279
Speaker 2: very unstable early life, and what they really in their

945
00:55:16,400 --> 00:55:18,840
Speaker 2: heart of hearts or in their bones, what they're missing

946
00:55:19,800 --> 00:55:25,640
Speaker 2: is some sense of like predictability, it's to even start

947
00:55:26,640 --> 00:55:31,360
Speaker 2: going on being right, So for them, you know what

948
00:55:31,440 --> 00:55:34,120
Speaker 2: they're looking for. More, what's more important is that is

949
00:55:34,200 --> 00:55:40,080
Speaker 2: some sense of stability of companionship, you know, the non interest, right,

950
00:55:41,160 --> 00:55:44,959
Speaker 2: I mean, think of it as masslows hierarchy of needs.

951
00:55:44,960 --> 00:55:47,080
Speaker 2: I don't know what's more important. It really depends on

952
00:55:47,239 --> 00:55:50,560
Speaker 2: what are the deficits you're coming with or where you

953
00:55:50,640 --> 00:55:54,200
Speaker 2: are in your life, right, right, and different reasons to

954
00:55:54,280 --> 00:55:57,040
Speaker 2: attach to a person and right.

955
00:55:57,760 --> 00:56:05,239
Speaker 1: I was always looking for adventure, travel, intimacy, excitement, like

956
00:56:05,520 --> 00:56:09,279
Speaker 1: things that are not like marriage e type things journy

957
00:56:09,360 --> 00:56:11,879
Speaker 1: mean or at least whatever the cliche is, I guess,

958
00:56:12,880 --> 00:56:16,799
Speaker 1: but my thing now is that. So then I found

959
00:56:16,840 --> 00:56:18,920
Speaker 1: myself thinking, oh my gosh, I think I want to

960
00:56:19,000 --> 00:56:22,600
Speaker 1: have children. So I adopted two children. Now I'm, you know,

961
00:56:23,000 --> 00:56:25,239
Speaker 1: very much in mommy mode when I'm not working, because

962
00:56:25,239 --> 00:56:27,239
Speaker 1: it's kind of a lot, right, Like, yeah, you know,

963
00:56:27,719 --> 00:56:30,480
Speaker 1: it's a lot, And it's also you know, a very

964
00:56:30,560 --> 00:56:34,040
Speaker 1: different kind of intimacy obviously, but like it's very intimate

965
00:56:34,120 --> 00:56:34,680
Speaker 1: to raise.

966
00:56:34,600 --> 00:56:37,200
Speaker 2: Children, extremely intimate. Right.

967
00:56:37,360 --> 00:56:42,120
Speaker 1: So it in some ways I feel like it uses

968
00:56:42,600 --> 00:56:44,200
Speaker 1: that muscle or whatnot.

969
00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:46,759
Speaker 2: I don't know how to put it, but supplies that need.

970
00:56:47,040 --> 00:56:49,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, it does, it really does. So I don't really

971
00:56:50,160 --> 00:56:52,520
Speaker 1: I don't really feel like, oh my gosh, I'm missing

972
00:56:52,600 --> 00:56:56,359
Speaker 1: so much. But then I also feel and I'd love

973
00:56:56,400 --> 00:56:58,120
Speaker 1: to know your thoughts on this. I also feel like

974
00:56:58,200 --> 00:57:03,040
Speaker 1: there is a part of me that is not kind

975
00:57:03,080 --> 00:57:07,440
Speaker 1: of being challenged and or growing because I'm not in

976
00:57:07,520 --> 00:57:12,200
Speaker 1: an intimate relationship yep. And I don't know. I don't

977
00:57:12,280 --> 00:57:18,120
Speaker 1: know how to make that happen so that, but I

978
00:57:18,200 --> 00:57:20,920
Speaker 1: do feel I do feel like there. I feel in

979
00:57:21,040 --> 00:57:24,320
Speaker 1: a way like I'm chickening out. Do you know I

980
00:57:24,440 --> 00:57:24,880
Speaker 1: do I.

981
00:57:25,680 --> 00:57:28,240
Speaker 2: I mean, obviously I don't know you enough personally to

982
00:57:28,320 --> 00:57:34,120
Speaker 2: really say something. But I think one of the things

983
00:57:34,280 --> 00:57:40,600
Speaker 2: that an intimate relationship pulls for or makes us grow

984
00:57:41,120 --> 00:57:44,880
Speaker 2: is going back to the idea of selfishness, is the

985
00:57:44,960 --> 00:57:50,280
Speaker 2: idea of like it asks you to move outside of yourself,

986
00:57:51,520 --> 00:57:55,480
Speaker 2: and children do that, Yes, children do that more than anything. Yes,

987
00:57:56,760 --> 00:58:01,040
Speaker 2: Like You're constantly having to prioritize some other sense of subjectivity.

988
00:58:01,160 --> 00:58:03,080
Speaker 2: You have to try to imagine what it's like for

989
00:58:03,200 --> 00:58:06,880
Speaker 2: someone else, you have to deprioritize your own needs. It's

990
00:58:07,000 --> 00:58:11,160
Speaker 2: it's a it's and that's a huge important lesson. We

991
00:58:11,360 --> 00:58:15,920
Speaker 2: grow from that. It's it's everything that will take us

992
00:58:16,000 --> 00:58:22,240
Speaker 2: out of ourselves. So in that sense, you're you're you're

993
00:58:22,280 --> 00:58:24,160
Speaker 2: probably doing plenty in that realm.

994
00:58:24,400 --> 00:58:24,680
Speaker 1: Thank you.

995
00:58:25,920 --> 00:58:30,200
Speaker 2: I mean, the other thing that I think romantic relationships

996
00:58:30,360 --> 00:58:33,080
Speaker 2: do is it has something to do with the realm

997
00:58:33,200 --> 00:58:38,040
Speaker 2: of like it's a different it's different intimacy when it's

998
00:58:38,160 --> 00:58:41,400
Speaker 2: like peer to peer intimacy, when it's not like a

999
00:58:41,680 --> 00:58:45,760
Speaker 2: parent child or or the other way around, taking care

1000
00:58:45,800 --> 00:58:49,200
Speaker 2: of an elderly parent, it's it's peer to peer. And

1001
00:58:49,320 --> 00:58:54,960
Speaker 2: then obviously the dimension of sexuality over time, which is

1002
00:58:55,600 --> 00:59:00,320
Speaker 2: a whole other complex world. Sexuality over time, I'm not

1003
00:59:00,480 --> 00:59:05,400
Speaker 2: just the thrill of like new new, but the thrill

1004
00:59:05,480 --> 00:59:08,920
Speaker 2: of not the thrill, the getting to know someone on

1005
00:59:09,040 --> 00:59:14,000
Speaker 2: that level over time. That's it's whole another world. Not

1006
00:59:14,120 --> 00:59:15,959
Speaker 2: everyone is good at not everyone.

1007
00:59:15,720 --> 00:59:19,360
Speaker 1: Wants right, right. I mean, I was in a really

1008
00:59:19,440 --> 00:59:22,240
Speaker 1: long relationship where I do feel like that happened and

1009
00:59:22,480 --> 00:59:27,439
Speaker 1: was really great. But then there were other outside world

1010
00:59:27,520 --> 00:59:30,160
Speaker 1: things that got in the way, which I'm sure also

1011
00:59:30,240 --> 00:59:32,120
Speaker 1: had to do with my choosing. You know, I have

1012
00:59:32,480 --> 00:59:35,440
Speaker 1: like whatever, because I wasn't choosing for safety and security

1013
00:59:35,800 --> 00:59:37,880
Speaker 1: right and I didn't really think I was choosing for

1014
00:59:38,000 --> 00:59:40,520
Speaker 1: life necessarily either. But I did stay for a very

1015
00:59:40,560 --> 00:59:42,640
Speaker 1: long time. But one thing that I do think of

1016
00:59:42,720 --> 00:59:44,480
Speaker 1: which I wouldn't say, except that I really love you

1017
00:59:44,520 --> 00:59:47,160
Speaker 1: and I trust you, I feel like one of the

1018
00:59:47,240 --> 00:59:51,760
Speaker 1: messages that I got somehow in my early childhood was

1019
00:59:51,880 --> 00:59:55,360
Speaker 1: that it's hard to hold onto myself in a relationship,

1020
00:59:55,800 --> 00:59:59,240
Speaker 1: like I lose myself. And there was a time when

1021
00:59:59,360 --> 01:00:02,640
Speaker 1: I did this to try to have children on my own.

1022
01:00:02,720 --> 01:00:05,160
Speaker 1: I was around forty something when I started thinking about it.

1023
01:00:05,880 --> 01:00:07,680
Speaker 1: I kind of felt like, well, I'm kind of just

1024
01:00:07,800 --> 01:00:12,120
Speaker 1: caretaking and not parenting, but like caretaking these men, I

1025
01:00:12,160 --> 01:00:18,040
Speaker 1: should just raise some children, you know. But yeah, I

1026
01:00:18,120 --> 01:00:22,360
Speaker 1: don't know how to necessarily do both, because I don't

1027
01:00:22,400 --> 01:00:25,080
Speaker 1: think I could. I don't know if I could, I

1028
01:00:25,120 --> 01:00:27,520
Speaker 1: should say, don't know yet. And I haven't tried really

1029
01:00:27,920 --> 01:00:31,200
Speaker 1: lately to really keep myself because now that I have

1030
01:00:31,280 --> 01:00:33,440
Speaker 1: the children, the children really need me. I can't give

1031
01:00:33,480 --> 01:00:36,400
Speaker 1: myself up to a relationship. And I don't know how

1032
01:00:36,480 --> 01:00:38,680
Speaker 1: to reconcile that in my mind. Obviously, if I've met

1033
01:00:38,680 --> 01:00:40,240
Speaker 1: the right person, maybe, but you kind of have to

1034
01:00:40,360 --> 01:00:43,400
Speaker 1: work to meet the right people. Yeah, and I'm definitely

1035
01:00:43,440 --> 01:00:45,960
Speaker 1: not doing it, meaning go and meet them, yes, like

1036
01:00:46,360 --> 01:00:49,560
Speaker 1: actually like leave the house. You know what I'm saying, right,

1037
01:00:49,680 --> 01:00:51,560
Speaker 1: Because people have wanted to put me on the apps,

1038
01:00:51,640 --> 01:00:54,200
Speaker 1: you know. Sarah Jeska at one point threatened to make

1039
01:00:54,280 --> 01:00:57,320
Speaker 1: them profile for me, and I was like, unless you

1040
01:00:57,400 --> 01:00:59,600
Speaker 1: are available to come on every one of those dates

1041
01:00:59,640 --> 01:01:04,120
Speaker 1: with me, right, please don't do it, because I I

1042
01:01:04,400 --> 01:01:05,920
Speaker 1: just don't know if I have the band with I

1043
01:01:06,080 --> 01:01:10,240
Speaker 1: just it's I don't I don't know how to balance it,

1044
01:01:10,320 --> 01:01:11,400
Speaker 1: I guess, you know.

1045
01:01:12,400 --> 01:01:16,200
Speaker 2: But kind of going back to the one of the

1046
01:01:16,480 --> 01:01:20,720
Speaker 2: first things you started talking about, and do you have to?

1047
01:01:21,840 --> 01:01:24,760
Speaker 1: No, I do not have to. I've got to take

1048
01:01:24,800 --> 01:01:29,160
Speaker 1: my sweater off. I do not have to. And that's

1049
01:01:29,240 --> 01:01:31,320
Speaker 1: the thing too, is like, like Sir Jessica said to

1050
01:01:31,360 --> 01:01:32,640
Speaker 1: me last night when we were at this thing, She

1051
01:01:32,760 --> 01:01:34,200
Speaker 1: was like, I need an update, and I said, I don't.

1052
01:01:34,200 --> 01:01:36,160
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't have an update, And I always

1053
01:01:36,160 --> 01:01:38,200
Speaker 1: feel terrible, like she wants me to be happy. She

1054
01:01:38,320 --> 01:01:41,560
Speaker 1: means the best, of course, right, but I just I

1055
01:01:44,160 --> 01:01:47,680
Speaker 1: just don't know what how to. It doesn't seem to

1056
01:01:47,760 --> 01:01:51,520
Speaker 1: be a priority. You know, there's sometimes when I think

1057
01:01:51,520 --> 01:01:53,720
Speaker 1: about it, I think life is short, Like what the

1058
01:01:53,800 --> 01:01:54,560
Speaker 1: fuck am I doing?

1059
01:01:55,720 --> 01:01:57,800
Speaker 2: You're raising kids?

1060
01:01:58,320 --> 01:02:02,520
Speaker 1: Okay, profession okay, okay, good, good, okay, good, But you

1061
01:02:02,640 --> 01:02:06,240
Speaker 1: know that it's like that societal pressure of like people

1062
01:02:06,440 --> 01:02:08,680
Speaker 1: don't quite know what to make of it. When you're

1063
01:02:08,720 --> 01:02:10,880
Speaker 1: just like, yes, I'm single, Yes I've been single kind

1064
01:02:10,920 --> 01:02:13,520
Speaker 1: of a long time, you know, like they're just like, oh,

1065
01:02:13,880 --> 01:02:16,640
Speaker 1: something must be horribly wrong with her, like it's an

1066
01:02:16,720 --> 01:02:17,400
Speaker 1: interesting thing.

1067
01:02:18,520 --> 01:02:24,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm I'm not into that whole hegemony.

1068
01:02:25,000 --> 01:02:28,600
Speaker 1: Yes, it's so true. It's so true. It's really interesting.

1069
01:02:28,800 --> 01:02:31,760
Speaker 2: Also, look around us. I mean, people are now choosing

1070
01:02:32,000 --> 01:02:34,560
Speaker 2: all sorts of ways to live that are not only

1071
01:02:34,800 --> 01:02:38,400
Speaker 2: like you know, the heterosexual couple right love it all

1072
01:02:38,560 --> 01:02:40,280
Speaker 2: these other ways that people live now.

1073
01:02:40,440 --> 01:02:44,000
Speaker 1: It's definitely definitely. Also there's this great article. I don't

1074
01:02:44,040 --> 01:02:45,800
Speaker 1: know how much of this kind of stuff you see,

1075
01:02:45,840 --> 01:02:48,200
Speaker 1: but this woman in England wrote this article about how

1076
01:02:48,240 --> 01:02:54,160
Speaker 1: it's embarrassing to have a boyfriend. Oh no, yeah, it

1077
01:02:54,280 --> 01:02:58,640
Speaker 1: went just blew up because it was basically saying, you

1078
01:02:58,720 --> 01:03:01,600
Speaker 1: know how people present on social media and it looks

1079
01:03:01,640 --> 01:03:04,400
Speaker 1: so glossy and amazing and blah blah blah. And it

1080
01:03:04,560 --> 01:03:07,400
Speaker 1: used to be like the flex was to have your

1081
01:03:07,520 --> 01:03:10,640
Speaker 1: hot man there on vacation with you wherever, and then

1082
01:03:10,840 --> 01:03:14,680
Speaker 1: after a while it seemed like that was like you're

1083
01:03:14,760 --> 01:03:17,720
Speaker 1: just giving your power away, you know, like like why

1084
01:03:18,080 --> 01:03:20,440
Speaker 1: like why does this amazing woman need to have a

1085
01:03:20,520 --> 01:03:25,400
Speaker 1: man like like that's boring, you know, it's just really

1086
01:03:25,560 --> 01:03:29,280
Speaker 1: fascinating and I love to watch just the reactions to

1087
01:03:29,440 --> 01:03:31,960
Speaker 1: all to all the things like this and the changes.

1088
01:03:32,040 --> 01:03:34,240
Speaker 1: And of course, as you said, it's it's not a

1089
01:03:34,320 --> 01:03:39,320
Speaker 1: global situation where we're all changing, obviously, but there's inroads

1090
01:03:39,400 --> 01:03:41,640
Speaker 1: I feel like, and I love to see them. It

1091
01:03:41,760 --> 01:03:44,640
Speaker 1: makes me excited, you know. But yeah, that's one of

1092
01:03:44,680 --> 01:03:46,240
Speaker 1: the things I love about your show too, is you

1093
01:03:46,360 --> 01:03:50,040
Speaker 1: have so many different couples with so many different backgrounds

1094
01:03:50,200 --> 01:03:54,560
Speaker 1: and expectations and kind of paving their own road forward,

1095
01:03:55,040 --> 01:03:59,120
Speaker 1: and you're helping them do that and also understanding the

1096
01:03:59,280 --> 01:04:06,080
Speaker 1: outside societal issues that they're also come bumping up against, right, Yeah,

1097
01:04:06,240 --> 01:04:09,320
Speaker 1: I mean constant, absolutely constant. I mean I just try

1098
01:04:09,400 --> 01:04:12,840
Speaker 1: never to discuss my dating life with anybody, necessarily in person,

1099
01:04:12,920 --> 01:04:14,880
Speaker 1: so that they don't ask me twenty million questions that

1100
01:04:14,960 --> 01:04:18,520
Speaker 1: I can't answer, do you know what I mean? Like

1101
01:04:18,680 --> 01:04:20,560
Speaker 1: what like why are you single? You know, and I'm

1102
01:04:20,600 --> 01:04:24,720
Speaker 1: just like, oh god, it's a story, okay, you.

1103
01:04:24,760 --> 01:04:28,120
Speaker 2: Know, No, this is not a legitimate question why are

1104
01:04:28,160 --> 01:04:30,680
Speaker 2: you single? It's like asking someone why are you gay?

1105
01:04:31,560 --> 01:04:32,000
Speaker 1: Good? Good?

1106
01:04:32,040 --> 01:04:32,840
Speaker 2: Why are you great?

1107
01:04:33,320 --> 01:04:36,200
Speaker 1: That's good? That's what I'm gonna say. That's what I'm

1108
01:04:36,200 --> 01:04:38,760
Speaker 1: gonna say next time. I'm gonna say doctor Orne says this.

1109
01:04:40,320 --> 01:04:42,160
Speaker 1: I love it. But I mean, really, what we're talking

1110
01:04:42,200 --> 01:04:45,680
Speaker 1: about too, is just you have to create the freedom

1111
01:04:45,760 --> 01:04:49,080
Speaker 1: to be yourself in that moment. Yeah, and that might

1112
01:04:49,160 --> 01:04:51,480
Speaker 1: not be forever, but it is my moment right now.

1113
01:04:51,920 --> 01:04:53,080
Speaker 1: It's not a priority.

1114
01:04:54,000 --> 01:04:54,240
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1115
01:04:54,480 --> 01:04:57,000
Speaker 1: I do sometimes beat myself up about it, but it's

1116
01:04:57,120 --> 01:04:58,400
Speaker 1: just not actually a priority.

1117
01:04:59,600 --> 01:05:03,240
Speaker 2: You know. Well, I approve, thank you, Thank you so much.

1118
01:05:03,680 --> 01:05:07,800
Speaker 1: Oh you know what, I have such an interesting question

1119
01:05:07,920 --> 01:05:09,600
Speaker 1: to ask you. I have no idea what you're going

1120
01:05:09,680 --> 01:05:11,360
Speaker 1: to say, because I only know you as your doctor

1121
01:05:11,440 --> 01:05:14,640
Speaker 1: self from watching your show. But I ask everyone who

1122
01:05:14,680 --> 01:05:17,880
Speaker 1: comes on the show this, are you a Charlotte doctor Orna?

1123
01:05:20,680 --> 01:05:27,400
Speaker 2: Oh, that's the title of the It is generally no, Okay,

1124
01:05:28,720 --> 01:05:32,640
Speaker 2: Other than what I said earlier, this like the magic

1125
01:05:32,800 --> 01:05:36,240
Speaker 2: dust of idealism. Yeah, I definitely have that.

1126
01:05:36,600 --> 01:05:36,880
Speaker 1: I love.

1127
01:05:37,960 --> 01:05:38,160
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1128
01:05:38,440 --> 01:05:40,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, you would need that in your job for sure.

1129
01:05:41,120 --> 01:05:43,760
Speaker 1: For sure, because you also need to give it. You

1130
01:05:43,880 --> 01:05:46,640
Speaker 1: need to have a present in the room because people

1131
01:05:46,680 --> 01:05:50,120
Speaker 1: are just going through so much when they come to you. Yeah,

1132
01:05:50,480 --> 01:05:55,920
Speaker 1: and I do think that's the most bestest part of Charlotte. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

1133
01:05:55,960 --> 01:05:58,160
Speaker 1: I love it. Would you say if you had to

1134
01:05:58,880 --> 01:06:02,640
Speaker 1: be placing yourself with another I think the obvious choice

1135
01:06:02,680 --> 01:06:06,320
Speaker 1: for you would be a Miranda who's like super intellect

1136
01:06:06,480 --> 01:06:11,840
Speaker 1: and straight talking. At least that's how I think of her.

1137
01:06:11,920 --> 01:06:15,640
Speaker 2: I don't know, Yeah, I think. I mean, on some

1138
01:06:16,000 --> 01:06:19,320
Speaker 2: I think i'd say that I identify with each of

1139
01:06:19,400 --> 01:06:20,080
Speaker 2: the characters.

1140
01:06:20,280 --> 01:06:24,240
Speaker 1: Amazing. Yeah, that's great, that's what we want, that's what

1141
01:06:24,360 --> 01:06:26,520
Speaker 1: we want. That's a great answer. That's a great answer.

1142
01:06:27,120 --> 01:06:29,240
Speaker 1: I don't know if we talked about the show enough,

1143
01:06:30,240 --> 01:06:32,880
Speaker 1: but I love everything we talked about. I love everything

1144
01:06:32,920 --> 01:06:36,080
Speaker 1: we talked about because I wanted the bigger picture and

1145
01:06:36,160 --> 01:06:40,400
Speaker 1: I wanted your professional opinion on some of it, because

1146
01:06:40,400 --> 01:06:44,000
Speaker 1: I do feel like, on the one hand, is I

1147
01:06:44,080 --> 01:06:45,920
Speaker 1: don't I don't think it's a bad thing that people

1148
01:06:46,000 --> 01:06:49,520
Speaker 1: want to kind of try to analyze stuff online or whatever,

1149
01:06:49,600 --> 01:06:52,680
Speaker 1: even though obviously they're not all doctors, because I do

1150
01:06:52,760 --> 01:06:55,560
Speaker 1: feel like people are searching, right They're searching for what

1151
01:06:55,760 --> 01:06:57,800
Speaker 1: is the truth of this what is the you know,

1152
01:06:57,880 --> 01:06:59,840
Speaker 1: what should I do in this relationship? What is the

1153
01:07:00,760 --> 01:07:02,080
Speaker 1: truth of our society?

1154
01:07:02,240 --> 01:07:02,400
Speaker 2: You know?

1155
01:07:02,520 --> 01:07:04,920
Speaker 1: All of those things, and they don't they don't necessarily

1156
01:07:05,160 --> 01:07:07,400
Speaker 1: know what to say, you know, so like they grab

1157
01:07:07,520 --> 01:07:11,320
Speaker 1: onto kind of easy answers or whatever. But also I

1158
01:07:11,400 --> 01:07:13,960
Speaker 1: do know, just from a therapeutic standpoint that of course

1159
01:07:14,000 --> 01:07:18,800
Speaker 1: you have a you know, much higher standard of how

1160
01:07:18,880 --> 01:07:21,200
Speaker 1: you would use those terms that I think are It's

1161
01:07:21,200 --> 01:07:24,640
Speaker 1: important to hear that, yeah, and be reminded of it.

1162
01:07:25,040 --> 01:07:27,320
Speaker 2: Even though I think people air a lot in the

1163
01:07:27,520 --> 01:07:33,240
Speaker 2: overuse of terms like narcissism and trauma, I'm also glad

1164
01:07:33,320 --> 01:07:36,320
Speaker 2: that people are interested in these kind of psychological ways

1165
01:07:36,360 --> 01:07:38,280
Speaker 2: of like parsing out the world.

1166
01:07:38,680 --> 01:07:42,680
Speaker 1: Absolutely, it's good. Absolutely, Absolutely, it's a beginning, right, like

1167
01:07:42,800 --> 01:07:44,640
Speaker 1: maybe they'll search more.

1168
01:07:44,760 --> 01:07:47,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, we just need to get more refined and responsible

1169
01:07:47,600 --> 01:07:48,720
Speaker 2: with how we use the terms.

1170
01:07:48,920 --> 01:07:51,880
Speaker 1: Definitely, definitely. Well, let me let you go to your patient,

1171
01:07:52,200 --> 01:07:54,120
Speaker 1: and we really appreciate your time.

1172
01:07:54,360 --> 01:07:55,360
Speaker 2: Thank you for inviting me.

1173
01:07:55,440 --> 01:07:58,320
Speaker 1: Oh, it's my pleasure. I'm a big, big fan. I

1174
01:07:58,400 --> 01:08:02,000
Speaker 1: can't wait to see more shows. Gay bye, great day.

1175
01:08:02,160 --> 01:08:02,400
Speaker 2: Bye,