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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to What Goes Up, a weekly markets podcast.

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Speaker 1: My name is Mike Reagan. I'm a senior editor at Bloomberg,

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Speaker 1: and I'm Baldonna Higher Across Asset reported Bloomberg, and this

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Speaker 1: week on the show, well, cryptocurrencies have been under pressure

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Speaker 1: this year as the Federal Reserve and other central banks

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Speaker 1: get ready to withdraw stimulus, and as tensions escalate between

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Speaker 1: Russia and Ukraine. And in fact, the situation has gotten

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Speaker 1: much more serious since we recorded this episode on Wednesday,

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Speaker 1: with Russia launching a massive invasion of Ukraine. What do

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Speaker 1: all these developments mean for digital assets? We'll get into

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Speaker 1: it with the chief strategy officer at a big digital

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Speaker 1: asset investment firm. I want to welcome Melton the Mirrors.

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Speaker 1: She's the chief strategy officer at coin Shares. Melton, thank

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Speaker 1: you so much for joining us. I am so delighted

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Speaker 1: to be here, Ldonna. We've and flirting online and offline

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Speaker 1: for years now, years years, and I've always appreciated part

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Speaker 1: of your coverage of the cryptos days to be here,

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Speaker 1: need to no one flirts with me, either online or offline,

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Speaker 1: maybe for a reason, but uh well, well, so let's

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Speaker 1: get into it a little bit and tell our listeners

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Speaker 1: about coin shares. I mean, I think you're probably most

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Speaker 1: well known for exchange traded products tracking bitcoin and ether,

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Speaker 1: but a lot more going on with the company. So

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Speaker 1: what do you give a sort of a you know,

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Speaker 1: quick rundown of what's going on at coin shares and

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Speaker 1: sort of how you got into the space personally, into

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Speaker 1: the crypto space. I'd love to, and maybe I'll actually

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Speaker 1: start with my journey into crypto first, because it's really

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Speaker 1: relevant to who we are coin shares and why we

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Speaker 1: do what we do. So before I got into crypto

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Speaker 1: is actually in the oil and gas industry, and I

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Speaker 1: started on the trading side, then moved into the M

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Speaker 1: and A side, and then into corporate treasury at Exnomobile.

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Speaker 1: At a time, if you recall, many many years ago,

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Speaker 1: an ex don Moobil was in fact the largest company

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Speaker 1: in the world by market capitalization of four billion dollars,

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Speaker 1: which today it feels very paltry when we have companies

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Speaker 1: with market caps and several trillion dollars, but at that time,

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Speaker 1: this was less than a decade ago. You know that

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Speaker 1: that was a pretty big deal. As I went to

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Speaker 1: graduate school, I was at I was like, I don't

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Speaker 1: know about oil and gas. The world was changing a lot,

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Speaker 1: everything was going digital. I've never heard of venture capital

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Speaker 1: or startups. Winter God School and I t went down

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Speaker 1: you know, the startup BC rabbit Hole, and had been

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Speaker 1: personally interested and engaged with bitcoin, but started interacting with

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Speaker 1: a lot of bitcoin startups. Um, if you recall, it

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Speaker 1: wasn't really until when coin base received its first round

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Speaker 1: of funding went through by Combinator that people were even

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Speaker 1: investing in in bitcoin companies. At the time, it was

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Speaker 1: really just bitcoin. None of these other cryptocurrencies existed. Web

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Speaker 1: three didn't exist, Defied didn't exist. And then as I

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Speaker 1: was leaving grad school, I met Barry Silver who starting

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Speaker 1: Digital Currency Group, and when I met the coin Shares team. Um, really,

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Speaker 1: what we bonded over is all of us come from

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Speaker 1: the commodity space. So my business partners they had launched

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Speaker 1: and ran a commodities hedge fund. And again, if we

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Speaker 1: look at the narrative cycle around commodities, if you recall

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Speaker 1: twenty years ago, commodities really weren't an investible asset class.

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Speaker 1: A lot of commodities trading was done physically by firms

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Speaker 1: who operated in the commodity space and the energy space

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Speaker 1: who had a need to hedge, right, but um it

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Speaker 1: really wasn't a space with a lot of financial instruments

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Speaker 1: or really active electronic market. And so what they saw

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Speaker 1: that I think was so interesting and really the genesis

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Speaker 1: of point shares was trading and market infrastructure, building market infrastructure.

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Speaker 1: And what they saw that I think was so compelling,

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Speaker 1: and I think so many other people who were earlier

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Speaker 1: Crucco also saw from commodity space was this nasive market.

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Speaker 1: It was already inherently digital, right, there was nothing physical

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Speaker 1: that needed to be dematerialized, but the market infrastructure on

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Speaker 1: bitcoin didn't needs this at all. So most of what

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Speaker 1: I did for the first five years in the industry

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Speaker 1: is invest in market microstructure on and off rams and

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Speaker 1: a lot of the basic elements of this market. And

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Speaker 1: what's been really fascinating is over really until twenty the

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Speaker 1: crypto market operated largely outside of the traditional system, so

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Speaker 1: outside of existing brokers, outside of existing exchanges, um, it

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Speaker 1: didn't really even have its own access to banking system,

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Speaker 1: which is why we saw the proliferation of the stable coins, right.

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Speaker 1: We needed a way to settle dollars on the same

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Speaker 1: sort of rules that that crypto settled with. Our journey

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Speaker 1: at point Shares really started with trading, thinking about market structure.

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Speaker 1: We then got into the exchange trader products space. Most

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Speaker 1: people know our legacy product line, XPT Provider, which was

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Speaker 1: the first crypto et P in the world, started with bitcoin.

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Speaker 1: Now we have ethereum Um and a bunch of others.

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Speaker 1: The two biggest elements of our business today are asset

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Speaker 1: management with three platforms, XPT Provider, Coinchers, Physical which is

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Speaker 1: fully collateralized and uh sort of cold storage coins. And

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Speaker 1: then we have a e t F that tracks crypto equities,

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Speaker 1: which are also an exciting part of the market. Now

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Speaker 1: it's no longer just the digital assets themselves, also equities.

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Speaker 1: We're also publicly listed, so that's been a fun process

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Speaker 1: and we can definitely talk about that what eas side

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Speaker 1: of the crypto space. And then obviously it was underpinning

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Speaker 1: all of that. We operate all of that infrastructure, We

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Speaker 1: build all that infrastructure. That's what makes the products possible.

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Speaker 1: And then what I get to do. I have the

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Speaker 1: best job in the company. I think, I get to

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Speaker 1: think about what the future looks like, so I invest

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Speaker 1: in our behalf and focus on investing M and A

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Speaker 1: and growth. And so it's been really interesting over the

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Speaker 1: last few years, in particular to think about how asset management,

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Speaker 1: how investments, how market microstructure fundamentally changing, and what the

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Speaker 1: implications are for how we build and distribute financial products,

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Speaker 1: particularly on chain financial products and non custodial financial products,

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Speaker 1: which is a thing you know, you would never have

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Speaker 1: conceptualized even as little as five years ago, but now

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Speaker 1: it's very much becoming a reality with hundreds of billions

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Speaker 1: of dollars locked in these protocols that are managing money

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Speaker 1: programmatically for individuals and institutions alike. That's really the genesis

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Speaker 1: of coin shares. You know, we're a publicly listed company.

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Speaker 1: Um we just reported our full year results for last year,

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Speaker 1: so people can go and check that out. We've atty

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Speaker 1: big research team that publishes all sorts of great insight

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Speaker 1: on markets, whether that's the exchangere to product market, whether

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Speaker 1: that's the equities market, whether that's crypto market structure and

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Speaker 1: new assets in the crypto space. But it's been a

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Speaker 1: it's been a fun journey over the last four years

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Speaker 1: building that business and really thinking about constantly how we're

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Speaker 1: going to disrupt ourselves. Right. I'm glad actually that you

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Speaker 1: mentioned that you guys just reported earnings because I wanted

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Speaker 1: to ask you about that and what type of growth

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Speaker 1: you're seeing or what you're seeing ahead for you guys. Yes,

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Speaker 1: so so for us, obviously, exchange for your products continue

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Speaker 1: to grow. Um. What's been really interesting is we see

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Speaker 1: a lot more entrance into the ETP space, into the

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Speaker 1: structure product space. I think one of the really cool

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Speaker 1: things happened over the last two years. It used to

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Speaker 1: be the only way people could really access crypto investing

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Speaker 1: in the early days was through exchanges, right, and I

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Speaker 1: recall my early days. You know, you'd send envelopes of cash,

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Speaker 1: or you would try to wire money to bank in

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Speaker 1: China or Japan and you'd hope that that would work

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Speaker 1: out for you, or you'd use local bitcoins. Um. I

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Speaker 1: remember when Circle came on this theme and I was

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Speaker 1: in Boston, Circle as the Boston company. Leave ability to

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Speaker 1: a c h or wire money into a platform by

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Speaker 1: crypto was such a huge relief. But if we think

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Speaker 1: about what's happened over the last two years, crypto is

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Speaker 1: now accessible directly through dozens of both traditional fin tax

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Speaker 1: as well as crypto native fin techs. We have coin based, Gemini,

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Speaker 1: cracked in a lot of others, but we also have

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Speaker 1: Square and robin Hood and so By and others to

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Speaker 1: make it really, really easy for people to manage their

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Speaker 1: crypto in the same way they're managing their equities exposure. Right, So,

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Speaker 1: I think that's been a really amazing development and has

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Speaker 1: certainly made consumer on ramp much simpler. An area I'm

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Speaker 1: really excited about is putting crypto in iras and tax

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Speaker 1: advantaged accounts. I think that's a huge opportunity for this

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Speaker 1: growth asset. We're investors in a company called Choice that

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Speaker 1: does that, but Alto i RA does that and others

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Speaker 1: do that as well, and I think for us, the

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Speaker 1: biggest area of growth is really continue think about how

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Speaker 1: we can use our market infrastructure and all of the

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Speaker 1: technic l you we feel the coin shares to reach

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Speaker 1: our consumers in different ways, our clients in different ways. Maltim,

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Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you about sort of the institutional

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Speaker 1: investor end of things. You know, correct me if I

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Speaker 1: if you disagree with this, but I kind of, you know,

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Speaker 1: I get the sense that for a lot of sort

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Speaker 1: of individual retail investors. As you pointed out, there's so

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Speaker 1: many easy ways to to get yourself exposure to crypto.

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Speaker 1: But I feel like the institutions are really such a

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Speaker 1: big well of money there that potentially could come into

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Speaker 1: the space. And my guess is they more likely uh

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Speaker 1: be interested in a in an exchange traded product, um,

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Speaker 1: something they're more comfortable with, and say storing crypto themselves

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Speaker 1: or going through you know, direct exposure through a coin base.

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Speaker 1: Where are institutions in your opinion as far as where

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Speaker 1: on the curve are they as far as getting into crypto.

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Speaker 1: It's it seems to me like we're just at the

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Speaker 1: early days of them scratching the surface. What are the

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Speaker 1: type of conversations institutions have about crypto as far as

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Speaker 1: how much exposure they really want to get? Yeah, that's

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Speaker 1: been the topic in the crypto industry for quite some time.

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Speaker 1: So let's just start by talking about how institutions typically

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Speaker 1: allocate the new asset classes. For most it starts with research, right,

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Speaker 1: and it starts with actually an internal decision process around

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Speaker 1: whether or not they want to engage with a specific

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Speaker 1: asset class. Now for a bitcoin in particular, for the

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Speaker 1: longest time. You know, when I first went out to

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Speaker 1: the street and tried to raise money for a bitcoin business,

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Speaker 1: people told me I was crazy. Does this DNI? Everyone

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Speaker 1: wanted to do blockchain, but we weren't really clear with

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Speaker 1: that that meant. But everyone was doing blockchain. And what

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Speaker 1: was really interesting about what happened in particularly when individuals

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Speaker 1: like Bill Miller, Um and you know, Stan Drucor Miller

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Speaker 1: came out and said, I'm Paul to your Jones, right,

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Speaker 1: came out and said I'm allocating a bitcoin. I have

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Speaker 1: long term conviction in mis sasset. It made it acceptable

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Speaker 1: institutions for chief investment officers, for investment committees, for risk

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Speaker 1: review committees to start looking at the asset. Right. They've

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Speaker 1: been doing a little bit of research, and I'll say

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Speaker 1: there's some firms that were really you know, forward looking

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Speaker 1: and started doing research as early. But it was really

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Speaker 1: in when people started saying, Okay, this is an asset class,

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Speaker 1: maybe we're willing to consider it, We're willing to talk

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Speaker 1: about it Um And what I think is happening now

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Speaker 1: is institutions definitely want to add crypto exposure. I mean,

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Speaker 1: all you have to do is look at the margins

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Speaker 1: in this business, thanks for in the business of making money.

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Speaker 1: Financial firms are in the business of making money. There's

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Speaker 1: an industry that is printing billions of dollars of revenues.

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Speaker 1: Right they're going to get in that game. That's that's

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Speaker 1: there it for them right now. The challenge is how

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Speaker 1: do they mesh the way they're customed to interacting with

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Speaker 1: assets with this new thing, a digitally native asset that

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Speaker 1: settles with finality on a public network. Right, That's that's

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Speaker 1: a little bit different. So the cme um cash settled

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Speaker 1: futures product has been really popular with institutions because it

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Speaker 1: fits within their existing infrastructure, doesn't require many new processes internally.

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Speaker 1: The only risk they're really taking their right with the

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Speaker 1: c music counterparty with this cash settled contract is the

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Speaker 1: asset risk. And that's really what's been the biggest thing

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Speaker 1: for us that coin shares is thinking about articulating those

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Speaker 1: different risks and then qualifying, quantifying those different risks, and

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Speaker 1: finding rappers and constructions, because the only risk they really

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Speaker 1: want to have right is asset level risk. They don't

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Speaker 1: want to have market risk, they don't want to have

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Speaker 1: counterparty risk. They want to try to minimize that. They

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Speaker 1: certainly don't want to have some contract risk, which is

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Speaker 1: something you face these defied products. So I think a

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Speaker 1: lot of institutions through the sort of risk review phase,

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Speaker 1: and now the question is do we build buyer partner

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Speaker 1: start to offer these capabilities. So we've partnered, for example,

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Speaker 1: with invest Go on the TF side, and that's been

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Speaker 1: a great partnership. Asset manager massive asset manager who really

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Speaker 1: wants to get into the crypto space, partnering with the

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Speaker 1: crypto native firm like US gives them an accelerated way

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Speaker 1: to do that, and we've seen a lot of partnerships

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Speaker 1: of that type. We're also seeing folks buying. We've seen

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Speaker 1: a number of financial institutions acquiring companies in the crypto

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Speaker 1: space or evaluating the opportunity to acquire, although evaluations are

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Speaker 1: pretty high these days. And then um some are building, right,

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Speaker 1: But the issue with building is it takes a lot

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Speaker 1: of time. It's really difficult to find talent, and at

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Speaker 1: the end of the day, not certain that the culture

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Speaker 1: at institutions is necessarily built around keeping pace with an

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Speaker 1: industry that's so dynamic and constantly evolving. But I think

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Speaker 1: right now that's really where most institutions are at they

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Speaker 1: have internal approval, the board is on board shareholders, you know,

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Speaker 1: I find it compelling. We've certainly seen when companies around

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Speaker 1: their announced shouldn't do something crypto, right, we see a

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Speaker 1: share price pop. So it's certainly value creative. I think

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Speaker 1: now the question is how do they actually deliver on

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Speaker 1: that in a meaningful way, um, and what does that

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Speaker 1: timeline look like the next two to three years, it's

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Speaker 1: going to be table stakes for every asset manager, every

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Speaker 1: financial institution to offer crypto related services. I don't think

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Speaker 1: many of those will be on chain. I think they'll

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Speaker 1: find ways to wrap those assets, to make them custodial

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Speaker 1: and to minimize some of the that they perceive with

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Speaker 1: engaging with crypto assets in a more way that has

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Speaker 1: the price action we've seen over the last few months,

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Speaker 1: UM sort of slowed that momentum at all. Uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: thrown some cold water on it. Absolutely not what I

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Speaker 1: think has been interesting. The argument we used to get,

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Speaker 1: or the pushback we used to get when we speak

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Speaker 1: to the institutions that allocating to bitcoin was around bitcoin's volatility,

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Speaker 1: and as we've seen in the last two years, volatility

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Speaker 1: is no longer limited to Bitcoin. I think we've seen

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Speaker 1: volatility all across the f f AT landscape and all

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Speaker 1: across the part polar landscape. So I think um as

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Speaker 1: a sort of a mindset shift has happened over the

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Speaker 1: last two years, where everything else has gotten much more volatile.

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Speaker 1: I think institutions are much more comfortable with Bitcoin's inherent volatility,

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Speaker 1: and in some ways that volatility actually can be an

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Speaker 1: an asset, particularly on the fixed side, or or the

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Speaker 1: trading side, or the prime brokerage side right, which are

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Speaker 1: big profit centers for many financial institutions. You know volatilities

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Speaker 1: when you make money. Vola vol is good for traders.

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Speaker 1: So I think that that volatility has gone from criticism

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Speaker 1: to now being sort of did reality and potentially an

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Speaker 1: opportunity for firms. So the big news obviously this week

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Speaker 1: is Russia Ukraine tensions, and I wanted to ask you

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Speaker 1: what happens to bitcoin prices as things sort of escalate

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Speaker 1: in the coming days, because the thought used to be

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Speaker 1: at least a couple of years ago, I remember hearing

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Speaker 1: a lot about for example, Venezuela like bitcoin, and whenever

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Speaker 1: something was happening in an unstable country, people could potentially

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Speaker 1: use bitcoin or start to use bitcoin a bit more so,

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Speaker 1: how should we be thinking about what happens to bitcoin's

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Speaker 1: price as these Russia Ukraine tensions as collect Yeah, Vil Donna,

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Speaker 1: I think that's that's a huge question. Um. If I

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Speaker 1: had a crystal ball, right, I would be trading this.

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Speaker 1: I sadly don't have a crystal ball. What I think

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Speaker 1: is interesting is you alluded to. I think one of

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Speaker 1: the narratives around bitcoin historically has been bitcoin is an

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Speaker 1: antidote to chaos and government incompetence, right, And I think

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Speaker 1: in many ways historically gold was also viewed that way, right,

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Speaker 1: And we're seeing right now gold is having a little moment,

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Speaker 1: it's rallying. I think one of the big questions around

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Speaker 1: bitcoin in particular in this environment is we don't know

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Speaker 1: what's going to happen. Right. A matter of weeks is

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Speaker 1: not really going to reveal what correlations might exist between

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Speaker 1: bitcoin and other sort of macro trends, political trends, cultural trends, etcetera.

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Speaker 1: I think it's a bit too early to say. Um.

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Speaker 1: I think certainly bitcoin in an inflationary environment has been

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Speaker 1: something we've been waiting for for a long time. Um,

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Speaker 1: and we are going to look at the data like

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Speaker 1: we do with coin Shares research team. We're gonna continue

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Speaker 1: looking at correlations, decrrelations and where things shake out. But

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Speaker 1: again I'm hesitant to make any sort of definitive conclusions.

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Speaker 1: I think it gets things we don't have. Unfortunately, in

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Speaker 1: the sasset class is a long time series of data

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Speaker 1: to look at to allow us to make inferences. Things

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Speaker 1: have changed so much fundamentally that it's very difficult to pinpoint,

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Speaker 1: like what's happening in markets. I think everyone is a

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Speaker 1: little bit perplexed and confused to be candid, and if

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Speaker 1: you look at the way things are trading in markets

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Speaker 1: like it, it's wild. So um, I don't have a

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Speaker 1: clear answer to that. I think for us, we're going

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Speaker 1: to continue watching, We're going to continue looking at the data.

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Speaker 1: Is always they I love to bring receipts of CBS,

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Speaker 1: susy baby. They are a long um so, so we

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Speaker 1: want to get some more data. We want to look

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Speaker 1: at this over a longer time scale. But certainly we're

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Speaker 1: optimistic around this idea that people will continue to look

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Speaker 1: at bitcoin as a portfolio diversisfire, an effective portfolio diversisfire

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Speaker 1: in an environment of increased chaos and uncertainty, you know.

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Speaker 1: To me, I think the one thing that skeptics of

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Speaker 1: crypto sort of sees on is that the narrative bowl

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Speaker 1: case for crypto tends to be kind of a moving target.

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Speaker 1: You know, Um, as you say, you know, government chaos

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Speaker 1: and and sort of geopolitical chaos. Was was one selling

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Speaker 1: point obviously, monetary inflation being sort of one of the

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Speaker 1: evergreen bowl cases for crypto. Is it just natural then

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Speaker 1: to expect a correction like this when central banks start

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Speaker 1: moving in the other direction and tightening policies? I mean,

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Speaker 1: is that the main cattles you think? For what we've

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Speaker 1: seen this drop in in crypto prices over the last

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Speaker 1: few months. Um, is it as simple as that? Or

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Speaker 1: is there more going on? Do you think? I think

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Speaker 1: there's more going on. So if we look at how

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Speaker 1: much bitcoin has dropped, Bitcoin is down around from its

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Speaker 1: last high in November around set nine thousand, So it's

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Speaker 1: down for you five percent. If we look at tech equities,

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Speaker 1: tech equities are down and round thirty two in some

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Speaker 1: cases like right, So we've seen drawdowns in in that

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Speaker 1: asset class, which is technically considers a growth assets, we're

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Speaker 1: using more traditional value stocks like pre um, core equities

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Speaker 1: rallying a bit right UM. But I think across the

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Speaker 1: board there is growing awareness and I think it's not

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Speaker 1: the Ukraine Russia conflict that's highlighted this, but it's what's

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Speaker 1: been happening in Canada with the Drucker protests and um

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Speaker 1: the Canadian government cutting off financial access to more involved

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Speaker 1: in in these protests. People in the in the West,

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Speaker 1: right historically, and the majority of capital markets activities still

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Speaker 1: by and large in the United States and in the

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Speaker 1: Western hemisphere. If we look at what's happened in the West,

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Speaker 1: people in the West have never really conceptualized situation like

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Speaker 1: Venezuela or Greece or Turkey like it. Just I think

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Speaker 1: as we watch what's unfolded over the last few weeks

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Speaker 1: and months with new regulation being proposed around surveilling bank

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Speaker 1: accounts with balances over six and some of the new

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Speaker 1: rules and be increased oversight in the lack of financial

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Speaker 1: privacy that's coming down the pike, I think people just

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Speaker 1: globally are becoming more aware of the fact that moving

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Speaker 1: into the digital age and our lives being so driven

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Speaker 1: by technology. On a day to day basis, every facet

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Speaker 1: of our lives also has some profound implications for our self,

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Speaker 1: sovereignty and the level of freedom we enjoy. And so

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Speaker 1: I actually think for many people it is catalyzed and

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Speaker 1: renewed interest in how bitcoin other cryptocurrencies could potentially be

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Speaker 1: part of their lives in the future. And you know

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Speaker 1: what I always say is taking a small percentage of

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Speaker 1: your portfoliolocating it to bitcoin. It's a form of insurance. Right.

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Speaker 1: If we're wrong and everything else works out, great, you're covered.

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Speaker 1: But if we're right, the fact that this is still

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Speaker 1: such an asymmetrical risk reward asset makes it worthwhile making

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Speaker 1: that small allocation. That's how I view it, and when

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Speaker 1: I think to people that sort of how articulate it.

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Speaker 1: And again, there are risks. I certainly don't think you

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Speaker 1: know that there aren't risks here, and certainly it's important

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Speaker 1: to convey those that I think around the world just

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Speaker 1: people are becoming more aware of the potential impact technology,

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Speaker 1: in particularly financial surveillance technology will have on their lives,

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Speaker 1: and they're starting to think more critically about it. I mean,

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Speaker 1: we've been locked in our houses for the last two years.

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Speaker 1: Investing has become a form of entertainment. And I think

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Speaker 1: generally people are looking around them and they're asking what

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Speaker 1: do we do from from here? Especially for my generation,

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Speaker 1: like we got screwed by the financial crisis. That's from college,

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Speaker 1: no jobs set back, you know, four or five years.

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Speaker 1: You're in your thirties, So so what are you gonna do?

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Speaker 1: It's really, I think, good, an interesting shift that's happening.

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Speaker 1: It is a generational shift, and I do think, um,

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Speaker 1: what's interesting. There's amunt of amount of capital in the

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Speaker 1: crypto space. You know, we talked about institutions for a

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Speaker 1: long time, and we thought about institutions, we thought about things.

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Speaker 1: Now when we think about institutions, we actually think about

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Speaker 1: crypto native institutions with a tremendous amount of capital, a

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Speaker 1: huge amount of capital. And so it's no longer just

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Speaker 1: the traditional players. There is a new world. There's a

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Speaker 1: new set of power players and they're spending a lot

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Speaker 1: of money. They're moving fast, very aggressive in this land,

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Speaker 1: grab for not just mind share, for attention and for

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Speaker 1: share of wallet. And that shift is happening very rapidly.

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Speaker 1: So multim you mentioned the Canadian trucker situation that's been unfolding.

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Speaker 1: And I actually have a question about that from a

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Speaker 1: from one of our new colleagues, one of our new

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Speaker 1: crypto team members, Emily Nicole in London, and she said,

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Speaker 1: you know, she's followed your work for a really long time,

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Speaker 1: and you had said in the past that bitcoin was

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Speaker 1: the only way to fight for America's core freedom values,

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Speaker 1: and so she was wondering, actually, if you still think

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Speaker 1: that considering everything that's been happening on the Canadian border

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Speaker 1: with the intervention. Absolutely, Um, democracy dies in in darkness.

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Speaker 1: And I think one of the you know, one of

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Speaker 1: the core tenants that America was built around was the

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Speaker 1: right to free speech and the right to personal freedoms.

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Speaker 1: I think financial violence is actually the predominant form of

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Speaker 1: violence in our world today if we look at the

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Speaker 1: impact that sanctions have on people's live financial redlining, financial exclusion, etcetera. Um,

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Speaker 1: we now with this new technology, see new tools being

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Speaker 1: added to the state arsenal right around monitoring surveillance and

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Speaker 1: not just on the crypto side, which is with digital

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Speaker 1: finance more broadly, and with the elimination many societies, many

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Speaker 1: countries of cash, and so what starts to become really

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Speaker 1: interesting and concerning is we see governments and this is

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Speaker 1: not just aalitarian governments, but governments in the West also

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Speaker 1: right that have historically been more propromises. They're utilizing financial

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Speaker 1: violence as a tool to suppress certain types of activity,

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Speaker 1: as a tool to suppress certain view Um, we have people,

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Speaker 1: the politicians, going on television and publicly stating if we

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Speaker 1: don't like what you have to say on social media,

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Speaker 1: we will remove you from social media and remove this

430
00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:14,800
Speaker 1: you from this platform. But we'll also potentially, you know,

431
00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:18,320
Speaker 1: impose other limitations and what you can or can't do.

432
00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:20,960
Speaker 1: And I think that very rapidly starts to be condystopian.

433
00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:23,760
Speaker 1: So I am, I am concerned, and I do think

434
00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:28,040
Speaker 1: it's very important for us to continue educating, to continue advocating,

435
00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:31,439
Speaker 1: and again, like a free society is not possible without

436
00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:34,760
Speaker 1: free money because money is inherent in everything we do.

437
00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:36,280
Speaker 1: From the moment we wake up to the moment we

438
00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:39,439
Speaker 1: go to sleep, we're constantly transacting. If you don't have

439
00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:43,040
Speaker 1: the ability to transact with digital money right within the

440
00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:47,760
Speaker 1: sort of state oversighte banking system, you can't do anything.

441
00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:49,920
Speaker 1: And if you hear some of the comments from people

442
00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:52,359
Speaker 1: in Canada who have been involved in the protests. Even

443
00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:55,679
Speaker 1: for example, coffee shop who's sold coffees right there in

444
00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:58,000
Speaker 1: the business of selling coffee. People come in and buy coffee.

445
00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:01,119
Speaker 1: There's a coffee shop that was literally cut off from

446
00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:03,480
Speaker 1: the banking system, had all their accounts frozen because they

447
00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:06,000
Speaker 1: starved coffee to people who are protesting. I mean, I

448
00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:10,399
Speaker 1: think that's absolutely bonkers. Well, and let's shift to a

449
00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:13,040
Speaker 1: to a slightly more happy topic, n f T s.

450
00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:14,800
Speaker 1: I love to talk about n f T s and

451
00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:17,760
Speaker 1: all Donna's notes to me, Uh say that you are

452
00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:21,199
Speaker 1: an n f T investor yourself, Is that right? I

453
00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:25,159
Speaker 1: am a jpeg connoisseur. Yes, all right. I want to

454
00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:27,160
Speaker 1: hear about your collection. But I also want to hear

455
00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:30,880
Speaker 1: after that about how do n f T s fit

456
00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:33,959
Speaker 1: into the strategy for affirm like coin shares. I mean,

457
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:36,280
Speaker 1: I I have a hard time picturing like an n

458
00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:39,919
Speaker 1: f T E T F we're sort of, you know,

459
00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:43,040
Speaker 1: any sort of way for you to to put the

460
00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:44,879
Speaker 1: you know, n f T s on the exchange, the

461
00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:47,320
Speaker 1: regular securities exchange. But you know I was, am I

462
00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:48,960
Speaker 1: wrong about that? Is there a way, you know, is

463
00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:51,600
Speaker 1: there a strategy in place to to sort of bring

464
00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:55,440
Speaker 1: n f t s into a security form or is

465
00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:58,520
Speaker 1: there other ways for a company like coin shares to

466
00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:01,680
Speaker 1: sort of you know, get involved in the business. Absolutely,

467
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:02,960
Speaker 1: and know we talked about n f t s a

468
00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:06,359
Speaker 1: lot internally. UM we hosted an event in New York

469
00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:08,240
Speaker 1: and we worked with one of the first n f

470
00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:11,080
Speaker 1: T projects called ether Lambos to make a coin shares

471
00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:14,920
Speaker 1: digital Lamborghini. Um. We made two hundred of them. UM

472
00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:18,560
Speaker 1: only twenty were claimed at this event, and now they're

473
00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:22,120
Speaker 1: trading and I think fourteen or fifteen dollars each. So

474
00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:24,720
Speaker 1: has been pretty interesting, right, But but I think again,

475
00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:26,800
Speaker 1: for us, if we take a step back, what our

476
00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:30,639
Speaker 1: n f t s in the absence right of physical

477
00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:34,119
Speaker 1: sort of communities that are gathering in people being able

478
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:36,960
Speaker 1: to denote their belonging to a certain group. Right, we

479
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:39,760
Speaker 1: don't really identify so much by like what nationality we are,

480
00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:42,840
Speaker 1: what our occupation is, um, what our religious belief is.

481
00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:45,800
Speaker 1: Today the way express who we are online is through

482
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:48,320
Speaker 1: the content we share, right and what we post on

483
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:50,520
Speaker 1: our profiles. And so I think n f t s

484
00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:55,320
Speaker 1: are actually a really interesting articulation of that in an

485
00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:59,080
Speaker 1: online fashion, and with capital embedded in it. It's similar

486
00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:01,400
Speaker 1: to in some ways, you know, why do people buy

487
00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:04,200
Speaker 1: Rolex is why do people buy expensive cars? They want

488
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:06,520
Speaker 1: to make statements about who they are and their taste

489
00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:09,000
Speaker 1: and their views, and they want to denote that they

490
00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:11,960
Speaker 1: have taste right, and that could be classy, it could

491
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:14,280
Speaker 1: be funny, it could be cross, it could be ghosh.

492
00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:16,959
Speaker 1: Like whatever it is you prescribed to, there is an

493
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:19,280
Speaker 1: n f T out there for you, which I think

494
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:21,919
Speaker 1: is is quite funny. Um. And I think again, the

495
00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:25,640
Speaker 1: way that becomes an expression in in an asset management

496
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:28,680
Speaker 1: firm is I think there are certain collections of n

497
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:30,760
Speaker 1: f T s that have reached sort of blue chip

498
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:32,960
Speaker 1: status as we like to call it, that have had

499
00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:35,320
Speaker 1: value over time, that have retained value over time and

500
00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:37,240
Speaker 1: grown in value over time. So I do think you'll

501
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:39,440
Speaker 1: start to see synthetics emerging around the n f T

502
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:41,960
Speaker 1: space where you don't actually have to only underlying n

503
00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:44,200
Speaker 1: f T, but you can own a basket of synthetic

504
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:47,720
Speaker 1: exposure to specific n f T collections um, and so

505
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:50,280
Speaker 1: you can start to build sort of these these portfolios.

506
00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:52,840
Speaker 1: And we've invested in a number of projects that are

507
00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:55,240
Speaker 1: building synthetics around n f T s, which are pretty

508
00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:57,680
Speaker 1: excited about. One of them is called Goose Effects is

509
00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:00,040
Speaker 1: built on top of Salana. So if you own a

510
00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:02,840
Speaker 1: valuable n f T, instead of selling it to get liquidity,

511
00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:05,600
Speaker 1: can actually collateralize it and utilize it as a way

512
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:08,119
Speaker 1: to get liquidity. I think there's actually company working on

513
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:10,119
Speaker 1: letting you use blue chip n f T s to

514
00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:12,840
Speaker 1: buy a house, right so to get a mortgage, which

515
00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:15,280
Speaker 1: is also quite interesting. We're starting to c n f

516
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:18,280
Speaker 1: T lending products, so I do think the financialization of

517
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:21,199
Speaker 1: everything right One expression of that is certainly n f

518
00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:23,680
Speaker 1: T s, and I think is we continue to push

519
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:28,800
Speaker 1: further into these more esoteric ways of of building communities

520
00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:31,880
Speaker 1: and sort of expressing who we are through conspicuous spending,

521
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:35,240
Speaker 1: which certainly n f T s are. The second piece

522
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:37,439
Speaker 1: that I think is important to remember about n f

523
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:39,560
Speaker 1: T s is it's not just about the assets themselves,

524
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:42,520
Speaker 1: just like with crypto, about the assets themselves, there's also

525
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:45,440
Speaker 1: a ton of equities right there, companies who are creating

526
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:48,040
Speaker 1: tremendous amounts of value in the n f T ecosystem,

527
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:51,240
Speaker 1: building infrastructure to make all of this possible. So we

528
00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:54,199
Speaker 1: are investing in those companies, We are actively collaborating with

529
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:57,240
Speaker 1: those companies as well, and I think we will see

530
00:26:57,320 --> 00:26:59,520
Speaker 1: in the next three or five years companies that publicly

531
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:02,800
Speaker 1: list derive the majority of their revenues from participation in

532
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:04,639
Speaker 1: the n f T market. And if we look at

533
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:06,440
Speaker 1: n f T S as an asset class right today,

534
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:09,840
Speaker 1: crypto assets themselves are roughly to trillion dollar asset class.

535
00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:14,080
Speaker 1: Crypto equities right including public lists and privately held companies

536
00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:16,919
Speaker 1: are probably another one to two trillion dollars of value,

537
00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:19,679
Speaker 1: and the n f T space right the assets plus

538
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:21,639
Speaker 1: the infrastructure that's been built around n f T s,

539
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:24,760
Speaker 1: it's close to a one trillion dollar asset class as well.

540
00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:27,440
Speaker 1: So what's been interesting to observe is there are many

541
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:30,040
Speaker 1: different ways that you can express that investment thesis based

542
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:32,760
Speaker 1: on how you like to invest. And I certainly would

543
00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:35,440
Speaker 1: not ignore with happening on the equities side, and it's

544
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:38,120
Speaker 1: not just crypto companies, they are also traditional companies. They're

545
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:40,280
Speaker 1: starting to move into the n f T space. You know,

546
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:43,199
Speaker 1: as we saw game Stop, Meme Stock, they're now going

547
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:45,960
Speaker 1: to be an n f T platform. So again, you know,

548
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 1: I think um reinvention and and constant change, that's the

549
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:53,200
Speaker 1: only constant really in financial markets, and I think and

550
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:56,040
Speaker 1: if they are really interesting expression of that. And certainly

551
00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:58,159
Speaker 1: we're seeing a lot of activity not just within the

552
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:01,639
Speaker 1: crypto ecosystem, but also inside the ecosystem and also the

553
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:04,679
Speaker 1: utilization of n f T s um in this this

554
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:07,840
Speaker 1: broader sort of Web three ecosystem as they call it,

555
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:10,840
Speaker 1: or this idea where instead of platforms owning our online

556
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 1: experiences of monetizing them, users and creators alike can own

557
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:19,120
Speaker 1: pieces of the platform. If you haven't noticed, Mike asks

558
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:22,199
Speaker 1: multipart questions. So I'm going to pull a mic and

559
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:25,200
Speaker 1: ask you a multipart question, which is, I want to

560
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:27,880
Speaker 1: ask you about your collection and how big your collection is,

561
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:30,800
Speaker 1: what you're buying right now, and what you think is

562
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:34,000
Speaker 1: the most overhyped n f T collection right now? I

563
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:36,240
Speaker 1: love it. Vel donnas like give me the alpha lady

564
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:40,600
Speaker 1: opens the open right now. I'll agre you' about to

565
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:42,880
Speaker 1: buy some n f T s. Yeah, whatever you say,

566
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:45,920
Speaker 1: I'm just going to do it. Okay, Okay, always careful then,

567
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:49,240
Speaker 1: um n f T s I'm excited about. So I'll

568
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 1: be very candid. I did not get n f T

569
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 1: s for a long time, right, which is I'm perfectly

570
00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 1: happy to admit that I don't understand everything happening in

571
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:00,440
Speaker 1: crypto and that's fine. UM so n F T S.

572
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:02,520
Speaker 1: As I started to get into last year, UM, I

573
00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:04,720
Speaker 1: came across something called ether Rocks. There's an n of

574
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:08,960
Speaker 1: two projects from It's a hundred pictures of the same rock,

575
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:12,360
Speaker 1: just in slightly different colors, not particularly attractive, no road

576
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:15,400
Speaker 1: map like it's it's a rock and about an ether

577
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:17,320
Speaker 1: rock for about nine eight at the time. And one

578
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:20,000
Speaker 1: of the cool things that happened is through participating in

579
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:22,560
Speaker 1: the ether rock community, we actually started to build a

580
00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:26,160
Speaker 1: physical community around these ether rocks. Today, the owners of

581
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:29,520
Speaker 1: ether rocks comprise a really cool group of individuals from

582
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:32,160
Speaker 1: across the crypto space. Their startup founders in it. There

583
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:35,400
Speaker 1: are professional poker players, there are athletes and their celebrities

584
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:37,960
Speaker 1: in it. So we've built this really cool sort of

585
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:41,400
Speaker 1: online community that's also convened offline. And I think we

586
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:43,200
Speaker 1: see that with a lot of benefit communities that I

587
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:46,000
Speaker 1: personally love ether rocks and I own ether Rock number

588
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:49,320
Speaker 1: sixty nine, which is obviously I'm here for the culture,

589
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 1: so I find that super funny. Um It's I think

590
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:56,480
Speaker 1: I personally don't own crypto punks or board ape yacht

591
00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:59,280
Speaker 1: club apes, but those have been really popular, and I

592
00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:02,960
Speaker 1: think I've had persistent value crypto covens, which are these

593
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 1: like ten thousand witches that exist online. Um, They've built

594
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:09,240
Speaker 1: a really cool community, and that's really interesting because sort

595
00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:11,800
Speaker 1: of a female focused, female lead project, and I've seen

596
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:15,720
Speaker 1: a lot of growth in that community and other projects.

597
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:17,640
Speaker 1: You know, I recently got involved in an n f

598
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:22,080
Speaker 1: T community called crypto dick butts, which is if I'm

599
00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:24,280
Speaker 1: like a Reddit kid. I grew up on the Internet

600
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:26,600
Speaker 1: in the nineties, so you know, I was on like

601
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:29,840
Speaker 1: four Chan and something awful and like all these weird

602
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 1: online communities, and dick butts have in an internet joke forever.

603
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 1: So someone actually made these little picks lined dig butts,

604
00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:40,800
Speaker 1: and that's been really funny. That community. It's just very irreverent,

605
00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 1: as you can tell. I gravitate towards n f T

606
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:46,200
Speaker 1: s that are like silly and and a little bit

607
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 1: irreverent and a little bit cheeky. But I've also been

608
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 1: collecting some really cool one of one pieces, some generative

609
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:56,080
Speaker 1: art as well, and I think there is this interesting

610
00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 1: intersection between physical art and digital art. Who have made

611
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 1: physical paintings buying the n f T and then I

612
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:04,280
Speaker 1: can have the physical painting in my house look at it.

613
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:06,640
Speaker 1: But I can also have the digital representation sort of

614
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:09,800
Speaker 1: take it with me online. Um, but yeah, I'm not

615
00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:12,040
Speaker 1: a you know, I buy funny n f T s

616
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:14,120
Speaker 1: at anytime a new n f T comes out. Okay,

617
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 1: I'm going to mess around with this again. My job

618
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:18,680
Speaker 1: really is to learn and to understand, so I spend

619
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:20,720
Speaker 1: a lot of time doing it because it helps you

620
00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:23,640
Speaker 1: understand and contextualize and figure out how it fits into

621
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:26,040
Speaker 1: our business. You know, the n f T space is

622
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 1: super fun. They're really low cost n f T s

623
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:29,960
Speaker 1: two that you can buy a lot of these are

624
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:32,280
Speaker 1: like hundreds of thousands of dollars. The Grail n f

625
00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:34,600
Speaker 1: T s or the blue chips are quite expensive. But

626
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:36,600
Speaker 1: in the Salona ecosystem, you know, there are a lot

627
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:37,960
Speaker 1: of n f T s that you can buy for

628
00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:40,320
Speaker 1: less than one soul. So you can buy an n

629
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:43,520
Speaker 1: f T for and I do think because gas kes

630
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:45,840
Speaker 1: on Etherorum are quite expensive, we will see n f

631
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:48,960
Speaker 1: T s on other ecosystems that will get mass market involved.

632
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:52,200
Speaker 1: Cool stat I heard recently is coin based n f

633
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:55,400
Speaker 1: T has a wait list of three point seven million users,

634
00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:58,240
Speaker 1: So when those come online, that will triple the current

635
00:31:58,240 --> 00:31:59,880
Speaker 1: size of the n f T wallet by a number

636
00:31:59,880 --> 00:32:02,000
Speaker 1: of the n f T market in terms of number

637
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 1: of while it's participating. And again, they'll be able to

638
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:08,200
Speaker 1: reduce season and do things in a in a more

639
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:10,920
Speaker 1: retail friendly way. So I do think those on and

640
00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:12,440
Speaker 1: off ramps for n f T s are really gonna

641
00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:30,120
Speaker 1: start to matter as well. You know, Meltim, I don't

642
00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 1: know how many sort of old grumpy guys like me

643
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:35,840
Speaker 1: you've come across over the years who will say something like, oh,

644
00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:38,640
Speaker 1: you know, crypto has no cash flow, I don't know

645
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:41,160
Speaker 1: how to value it, which fine, we could argue that

646
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:44,640
Speaker 1: debate that for for another time. But then you ask

647
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:47,200
Speaker 1: them to sort of value an n f T, and

648
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:49,440
Speaker 1: I think it makes people's head spin to try to

649
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:51,600
Speaker 1: sort of figure out if there is a way to

650
00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:56,840
Speaker 1: fundamentally look at the potential value of an n Yeah.

651
00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:59,520
Speaker 1: I'm curious how you because to me, it's all about, well,

652
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:01,840
Speaker 1: how high you know, how much hype is behind this,

653
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:05,000
Speaker 1: how much sort of of the community is going to

654
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:07,479
Speaker 1: be sort of backing this and and hyping it up

655
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:09,200
Speaker 1: on social media. I mean, is that is that a

656
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:11,280
Speaker 1: big part of it? Or Am I just sort of

657
00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:14,800
Speaker 1: looking at it superficially. No, So I think, Uh, there's

658
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:17,880
Speaker 1: a really interesting company called upshot um and they actually

659
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:21,200
Speaker 1: specialize in valuing and pricing n f T s and

660
00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:23,080
Speaker 1: one of the interesting things they look at and they

661
00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 1: have a great white paper on their site that you

662
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:28,480
Speaker 1: can read. Look in investing in anything, right, there's a

663
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:32,080
Speaker 1: certain element of fundamental analysis. There's also a certain component

664
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:35,120
Speaker 1: of luck. Right. It's very difficult to determine what n

665
00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:37,400
Speaker 1: f T will be successful in what won't. Similar to

666
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:39,520
Speaker 1: what I do right when I'm investing in startups is

667
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:41,960
Speaker 1: there's an element of analysis that you can apply. But

668
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:44,880
Speaker 1: there's also a certain element of luck. Right. And one

669
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 1: of the reasons that we create portfolios of assets right

670
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:51,320
Speaker 1: in similar sectors or the portfolios is to attempt to

671
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 1: influence of luck on financial outcomes, right, so that the

672
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:58,600
Speaker 1: mean of the performance across the portfolio sort of will

673
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:03,479
Speaker 1: will perform l right, and we'll like eliminate or at

674
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:06,800
Speaker 1: least reduce the impact of luck in each individual investment

675
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:09,839
Speaker 1: decision you're making. Right. So I think, um, right, now,

676
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:12,279
Speaker 1: there's not a huge amount of data. Again, n f

677
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:15,040
Speaker 1: t s are two years old, but really there's a

678
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:17,640
Speaker 1: lot of these assets are very new. UM, but Ophots

679
00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:20,160
Speaker 1: developed some pretty cool models. Um, they've launched a really

680
00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:22,680
Speaker 1: cool API that you can utilize that we'll do actually

681
00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:24,680
Speaker 1: price predictions, so you can start to figure out what

682
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:27,840
Speaker 1: n f t s are undervalued overvalued. And again I

683
00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:30,279
Speaker 1: think as we look at portfolio construction, there are all

684
00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:32,760
Speaker 1: these interesting analytical tools that are starting to be built

685
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:35,759
Speaker 1: that will allow you to evaluate not just utilizing price data,

686
00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:38,840
Speaker 1: but contextual data, social graphic data. Again, all of this

687
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:40,880
Speaker 1: is on chain's public you can see what other assets

688
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:43,400
Speaker 1: people hold in their wallets. Um, all of this is

689
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:45,799
Speaker 1: starting to build. I think a much more robust data

690
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:49,040
Speaker 1: set around how we can analyze esoteric assets like n

691
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:53,600
Speaker 1: f t s contextualized valuation and start to determine what's overvalued,

692
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:58,319
Speaker 1: what's undervalued, what has long term sort of UM value proposition.

693
00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:02,440
Speaker 1: But again, I think all quite new highly recommend upshot UM.

694
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:05,560
Speaker 1: I'm an investor in the company, full disclosure, but I

695
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:10,319
Speaker 1: think again this space around analyzing textualizing what's happening and

696
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:12,279
Speaker 1: who's buying what and what that means and how that

697
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:15,359
Speaker 1: infix pricing is a really rich space that a ton

698
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:17,640
Speaker 1: of companies are building in. They'll take a couple of years,

699
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:19,840
Speaker 1: I think, to really start to become more of a

700
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:22,319
Speaker 1: science right now, sort of student science. So many things

701
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:25,200
Speaker 1: are when I first start, but I think again, with time,

702
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 1: more data, with better tooling and infrastructure, it's certainly can

703
00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:33,319
Speaker 1: be a very interesting asset class that presents opportunities for

704
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:36,440
Speaker 1: people who are deploying different types of strategies, whether it's

705
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:39,240
Speaker 1: an arbitrage strategy with whether it's a value investing strategy,

706
00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:41,600
Speaker 1: whether it's a growth investing strategy. Right, all of those

707
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 1: things ultimately can be applied to these new types of

708
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:47,759
Speaker 1: markets as well. Is that the kind of startup that's

709
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:51,040
Speaker 1: sort of catching your eye as a venture investor? Is

710
00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:55,640
Speaker 1: you know that that sort of analysis and type of thing. Yeah, so,

711
00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:57,600
Speaker 1: so the way I think about it is, um so

712
00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:02,480
Speaker 1: I think along to acts these uh, utopianism and grift right,

713
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:05,880
Speaker 1: so a lot of crypt I'm serious, uh, And I

714
00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:07,880
Speaker 1: want to get a shout out to to Kevin Aglois

715
00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:10,400
Speaker 1: Capital who came up with this framework which I've adopted

716
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:13,600
Speaker 1: and sort of permutated to fit my own needs. And

717
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:15,880
Speaker 1: those are not the two axes I saw coming that.

718
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:19,719
Speaker 1: That's pretty good utopianism and grif. Yeah. So so look

719
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:23,160
Speaker 1: there's some there's some projects that are low utopianism and

720
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:26,600
Speaker 1: low grift, and those out categorizes infrastructure rights, like building

721
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:30,000
Speaker 1: a crypto exchange. That's low utopianism, like we know and exchanges.

722
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:32,840
Speaker 1: You have an order book, you have bids and offers, right, Like,

723
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:38,839
Speaker 1: that's not how utopianism, it's not fundamentally revolutionary. It's also

724
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:40,840
Speaker 1: low grift. Right, the business model is very clear, you

725
00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:43,120
Speaker 1: know exactly how that works. Then there are projects which

726
00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:45,880
Speaker 1: are really how utopianism and low grift. And these are technical,

727
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:49,239
Speaker 1: typically very technical projects that are based on like one

728
00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:53,000
Speaker 1: or two fundamental sort of technology breakthroughs. So categorize those there,

729
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:54,839
Speaker 1: and those are sort of like your moon shots. Then

730
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:58,480
Speaker 1: you have low youtubism grift projects, which are like ship

731
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:00,319
Speaker 1: coins and n f T money grabs, so I like

732
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:05,000
Speaker 1: to call them. It's really just about optimizing for getting

733
00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:07,640
Speaker 1: as much money out of people as possible. And and

734
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:10,040
Speaker 1: a lot of those projects we've seen coming go over

735
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:12,920
Speaker 1: the years. I think it's very common in any new

736
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:17,040
Speaker 1: technology sector to see those types of projects startups, companies

737
00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:20,400
Speaker 1: and then there's how utopianism high drift, and those are

738
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:22,640
Speaker 1: the ones I sort of worry about. Now things can

739
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:25,920
Speaker 1: migrate between sectors right as they become more real. But

740
00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:28,120
Speaker 1: that's sort of an interesting like two by two matrix

741
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:31,080
Speaker 1: that you can sort of use to to contextualize. Again,

742
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:34,239
Speaker 1: it sounds probably crazy to a more traditional investor who's

743
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:36,719
Speaker 1: not accustomed to thinking about the world this way. I

744
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:39,480
Speaker 1: think it'll sound more familiar to start up investors and

745
00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:41,920
Speaker 1: people who look at the venture and startup space. But look,

746
00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:43,520
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, like you have to

747
00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:46,440
Speaker 1: have a certain degree of optimism and a certain degree

748
00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:49,239
Speaker 1: of belief in ratically different futures, like do you think

749
00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:51,960
Speaker 1: the utopianism and sort of this belief that we can

750
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:55,200
Speaker 1: do radically different things really important. Um, and over time

751
00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:58,279
Speaker 1: that will become normalized, right, But it's also important to

752
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:00,880
Speaker 1: be aware of the grift components. A lot of stuff

753
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:02,719
Speaker 1: in the crypto space that just when you stop to

754
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:06,680
Speaker 1: think about it, doesn't make sense that at all. So, um, yeah,

755
00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:09,520
Speaker 1: that's that's sort of my framework. It's a it's I

756
00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:12,200
Speaker 1: love it, so so you're okay with it being sort

757
00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:15,080
Speaker 1: of out there on the on the utopian access but

758
00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:18,239
Speaker 1: lower on the grift access but presumably or you want it,

759
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:20,920
Speaker 1: you want it sort of close to zero on both. Yeah.

760
00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:24,520
Speaker 1: I think again, um, intention is really important, and it's

761
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:26,920
Speaker 1: very important to sort of understand like the economics of

762
00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:31,279
Speaker 1: the project, the vesting of the project, particularly since there

763
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:34,480
Speaker 1: is um a much quicker pathway to liquidity in crypto

764
00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:36,600
Speaker 1: through a orchanization or through issuing and n f T,

765
00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:39,400
Speaker 1: and so you always want to have a clear understanding

766
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:41,720
Speaker 1: of what the economic incentives are with the time frame

767
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:44,120
Speaker 1: is and to ensure that those incentives are aligned around

768
00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:48,239
Speaker 1: people building things that have actual utility. Vildana, we need

769
00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:52,399
Speaker 1: to somehow make a chart, a utopian drift chart. Yeah,

770
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:54,120
Speaker 1: I was trying to picture it in my mind. I'm

771
00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:58,719
Speaker 1: sure one exists. The Milton can share with us. It's

772
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:00,799
Speaker 1: sort of an interesting way to contain actualize things, but

773
00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:04,600
Speaker 1: also to test my own thinking, it's very appealing. I

774
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:08,120
Speaker 1: think it's very seductive to many crypto investors sort of

775
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:09,560
Speaker 1: be like, oh we can we can make a lot

776
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:13,080
Speaker 1: of money very quickly. But again, I think that persistence

777
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:15,600
Speaker 1: is really important, Like you want to invest in things

778
00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:17,160
Speaker 1: that are gonna be around for a long time and

779
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:19,360
Speaker 1: ultimately one of our fundamental beliefs is one of the

780
00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:21,759
Speaker 1: beliefs I've always had been in this industry for eight years,

781
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:25,960
Speaker 1: which very long time. Reputation does matter, particularly in capital markets.

782
00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:29,040
Speaker 1: Relationships do matter. Even that we're operating in this this

783
00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:32,520
Speaker 1: digital space, it does matter, and so I do think

784
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:36,440
Speaker 1: it's important for people and for firms as they're investing

785
00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:38,440
Speaker 1: in the space, as they're talking about things on Twitter,

786
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:41,320
Speaker 1: like you have to be cautious around what you're promoting,

787
00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:43,680
Speaker 1: what type of behavior you're promoting, and so that's a

788
00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:46,040
Speaker 1: line we sort of try it to be very mindful of.

789
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:48,560
Speaker 1: And again I do think we see other firms in

790
00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:51,080
Speaker 1: the space absolutely fine, right to each their own. We're

791
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:53,919
Speaker 1: not judge, we're not Jerry, we're not executioner. But it's

792
00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:56,120
Speaker 1: something to be mindful of. And again point shares. We've

793
00:39:56,120 --> 00:39:58,360
Speaker 1: been around for eight years now, we plan to be

794
00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:01,520
Speaker 1: around for decades more um, and so that's how we're

795
00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:04,359
Speaker 1: going to build our business. Melton, I wanted to ask you.

796
00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:07,120
Speaker 1: It's going to sound like a simple question, but actually

797
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:09,680
Speaker 1: I think the story behind it is really interesting and

798
00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:12,440
Speaker 1: very fascinating to me. I want to ask you where

799
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:14,840
Speaker 1: you're talking to us from because you and I have

800
00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:19,680
Speaker 1: talked about this idea about people building bitcoin communities, especially

801
00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:22,040
Speaker 1: in New Hampshire and in other places, and you and

802
00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:25,680
Speaker 1: I have talked about how potentially you could see in

803
00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:30,440
Speaker 1: the future people running for office on these bitcoin community platforms.

804
00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:32,480
Speaker 1: And so where are you calling us from and what

805
00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:37,320
Speaker 1: does this bitcoin community development. I don't know if project

806
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:39,439
Speaker 1: is the right word, but what what does it look

807
00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:43,280
Speaker 1: like and where is it happening? I love this topic, Danaus,

808
00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:45,960
Speaker 1: but thank you for giving me an opportunity to shill

809
00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:48,160
Speaker 1: New Hampshire. Um. Look, I think at the end of

810
00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:49,960
Speaker 1: the day, you know, I used to be in New York.

811
00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:51,680
Speaker 1: I was in New York for many years in New York,

812
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:54,239
Speaker 1: and my view stills in anyways that the capital of

813
00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:56,680
Speaker 1: the financial world has been really sad to see his

814
00:40:56,760 --> 00:41:00,279
Speaker 1: New York implement called the bit license that were hired

815
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:03,200
Speaker 1: firms operating in New York to obtain additional licenses specific

816
00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:07,320
Speaker 1: to just dealing in cryptocurrencies. Now very few bit licenses

817
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:10,279
Speaker 1: have been issued. The average waytime from application to getting

818
00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:12,800
Speaker 1: a bit licenses I think over two years at this point,

819
00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:15,280
Speaker 1: and the wait list is quite long. They're not processing

820
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:17,800
Speaker 1: these things so what's been really sad to see certain

821
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:21,319
Speaker 1: states have effectively excluded them from this entire sector by

822
00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:26,520
Speaker 1: having a very I think Dacronian approach or very inflexible

823
00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:29,440
Speaker 1: verage decrypto if you will. UM. The other challenge you

824
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:31,480
Speaker 1: have operating in the US, and one of the reasons

825
00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:33,800
Speaker 1: why coin Shares is a global firm with offices in

826
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:38,840
Speaker 1: multiple jurisdictions is the US in many places lacks regulatory clarity,

827
00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:41,200
Speaker 1: and the approach the US has chosen to take is

828
00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:44,080
Speaker 1: regulation by enforcement, which again I think is a really

829
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:46,759
Speaker 1: challenging approach. It's not that firms don't apply to the

830
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:49,640
Speaker 1: guidance isn't clear. People are trying to do innovative things.

831
00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:52,279
Speaker 1: They're new I understand it's challenging for regulators to sort

832
00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:55,000
Speaker 1: of figure out how to manage that. By regulating by

833
00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:57,960
Speaker 1: enforcement and being kingmaker, right, which is what the SEC

834
00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:01,040
Speaker 1: is doing by deciding who can and who cannot. Is

835
00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:04,360
Speaker 1: not a fair market approach. That's not how regulations supposed

836
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:07,759
Speaker 1: to work. UM. I think other jurisdictions like Switzerland, Singapore

837
00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:10,880
Speaker 1: and others that have that have taken a more proactive approach,

838
00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:14,759
Speaker 1: that have established their guidance through regulation as opposed to enforcement.

839
00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:16,920
Speaker 1: Have seen a lot of crypto firms, a lot of

840
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:19,719
Speaker 1: high paying jobs, a lot of capital moving into those jurisdictions.

841
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:22,239
Speaker 1: Um I think Abology Turn of Austin does a great

842
00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:25,279
Speaker 1: job articulating this. He recently run an article in um

843
00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:29,239
Speaker 1: UH Policy, sort of political science focused publication around sort

844
00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:33,080
Speaker 1: of the rise of digital nation states or nation states

845
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:36,720
Speaker 1: that embrace new technology, that have regulation that's a creative

846
00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:40,319
Speaker 1: to startups and and you know innovative entrepreneurs who want

847
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:42,600
Speaker 1: to build innovative types of businesses. And I think the

848
00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:45,479
Speaker 1: physical infrastructure also matters. So what I really love about

849
00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:48,399
Speaker 1: New Hampshire is um from a tax precative, it's quite

850
00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:51,440
Speaker 1: amenable from a regulatory perspective. You know, it's the live

851
00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:54,800
Speaker 1: freer dice states, so it's not overly prescriptive and how

852
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:57,920
Speaker 1: it regulates. And I think again, there's a huge opportunity

853
00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:00,759
Speaker 1: here for jurisdictions to compete for all of these tech

854
00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:03,440
Speaker 1: workers that have been living on the coast California, New

855
00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:06,120
Speaker 1: York or to the most regulated states in this country.

856
00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:09,560
Speaker 1: So people are flocking to jurisdictions like Wyoming in Texas,

857
00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:12,920
Speaker 1: in New Hampshire and Florida where there is an embrace

858
00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:16,239
Speaker 1: of these new industries where policies are not as restrictive

859
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:19,160
Speaker 1: and where there is an openness to engaging because these

860
00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:22,360
Speaker 1: states the opportunities to bring high paying, high tech jobs

861
00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:26,520
Speaker 1: to their economies, and obviously that influx of capital and

862
00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:29,279
Speaker 1: that influx of people has a huge impact, not just

863
00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:31,920
Speaker 1: some people working in that sector, but on those states overall.

864
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:34,480
Speaker 1: The live free or die. So it's more than just

865
00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:37,880
Speaker 1: a license plate slogan. In New Hampshire, they're tiden up

866
00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:41,680
Speaker 1: your straight jackets. It's time for the craziest things we

867
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:46,239
Speaker 1: saw in markets this week? All right, Malton, Well for

868
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:49,760
Speaker 1: this next next segment, I also have two axes in mind.

869
00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:52,840
Speaker 1: This is called the craziest things we saw in markets

870
00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:56,080
Speaker 1: this week. So when one access is crazy and on

871
00:43:56,120 --> 00:43:59,840
Speaker 1: the other access is also crazy, it's it's it's crazy.

872
00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:03,480
Speaker 1: Think when I think about chaos, right there's like bad chaotic,

873
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:06,480
Speaker 1: neutral chaotic, good chaotic. I think right now markets are

874
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:09,960
Speaker 1: like absolutely absolutely I'm hoping to get back to a

875
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:14,040
Speaker 1: good chaotic crypto in some ways like one and anyways,

876
00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:19,480
Speaker 1: it's good chaotic because it's fun. Yeah, this is not

877
00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:22,000
Speaker 1: too fun, but certainly plenty of plenty of things to

878
00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:24,439
Speaker 1: talk about for the craziest things, Well, Donna, let's get

879
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:27,880
Speaker 1: started with you. What's the craziest thing you saw? And

880
00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:29,680
Speaker 1: keeping the mind you were in Portagal for most of

881
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:31,799
Speaker 1: the week, so I don't know. I don't know if

882
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:34,759
Speaker 1: that factors into your selection this week. Yeah, but I

883
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:37,680
Speaker 1: have one that I specifically chose for you because I

884
00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:40,240
Speaker 1: think you will really like it, and I really actually

885
00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:42,719
Speaker 1: hope you haven't seen it yet. But Family Dollar, which

886
00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:46,799
Speaker 1: is owned by Dollar Tree, it's actually closed like hundreds

887
00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:49,840
Speaker 1: of stores and recalled a bunch of products because of

888
00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:54,320
Speaker 1: a rodent infestation that they have. It's a nauseating story,

889
00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:57,160
Speaker 1: but it's also kind of unbelievable. So I guess CNN

890
00:44:57,239 --> 00:45:00,759
Speaker 1: had a report that showed, know, they were just like

891
00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:04,439
Speaker 1: rats running around everywhere eating the food and they were

892
00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:08,520
Speaker 1: rotting garbage and trash and all kinds of stuff. And

893
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:12,240
Speaker 1: the stock did drop so so they had to recall

894
00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:14,440
Speaker 1: a bunch of stuff too. I don't know if the

895
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:17,800
Speaker 1: stock dropped, you know, in conjunction with everything else selling

896
00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:20,840
Speaker 1: off this week, But it was fun, it was a

897
00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:23,040
Speaker 1: fun read. I think it's safe to say that some

898
00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:26,520
Speaker 1: market moves are hard to determine rat trappings. Closing your

899
00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:30,920
Speaker 1: stores I think is definitely a catalyst that hundreds of stores. Yeah, well, Maltim,

900
00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:34,000
Speaker 1: I don't know if you saw anything crazy, God was crazy.

901
00:45:34,120 --> 00:45:36,600
Speaker 1: I saw a chart this week that trapped UM tech

902
00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:38,440
Speaker 1: I p os over the last two years and the

903
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:41,600
Speaker 1: performance of those stocks that was crazy to see, just

904
00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:45,480
Speaker 1: pretty bad. How far they are down, yeah, from their people. UM.

905
00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:47,759
Speaker 1: The other crazy thing I guess that's really on my

906
00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:50,360
Speaker 1: mind is um I have a lot more competition and

907
00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:53,799
Speaker 1: early stage investing Tiger. Do you want a bunch of

908
00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:56,480
Speaker 1: other later stage proth equity firms that would typically invest

909
00:45:56,520 --> 00:45:58,800
Speaker 1: pre I p O have said they're not going to

910
00:45:58,840 --> 00:46:01,239
Speaker 1: be investing pray Go so much anymore. They're going to

911
00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:04,800
Speaker 1: be in liquid public markets looking for undervalued tech companies,

912
00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:08,239
Speaker 1: or they're gonna move earlier stage to UH startups like

913
00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:11,600
Speaker 1: startup startups. So so that's been interesting to see certainly

914
00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:15,920
Speaker 1: change the venture landscape, and I think we'll continue to

915
00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:19,759
Speaker 1: there's more capital than ever chasing opportunities, but where they're

916
00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:22,839
Speaker 1: chasing those opportunities starting to shift. People generally are much

917
00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:25,640
Speaker 1: more comfortable moving further out on the risk curve UM

918
00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:27,760
Speaker 1: and also on the duration curve, which is been interesting

919
00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:29,640
Speaker 1: to observe, and I think the impacts of that will

920
00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:32,880
Speaker 1: be felt throughout, you know, the tech sector for a

921
00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:36,400
Speaker 1: long time to come. There's over a thousand unicorns in

922
00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:39,480
Speaker 1: the world today, no idea how those companies are gonna

923
00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:42,600
Speaker 1: get liquidity. Um. I think what's happening around SPACs has

924
00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:45,000
Speaker 1: also been fascinating to watch a lot of new rules

925
00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:48,560
Speaker 1: coming out limiting um the ability to to raise bacts

926
00:46:48,719 --> 00:46:51,000
Speaker 1: um and a ton of SPACs that have raised capital

927
00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:53,919
Speaker 1: that I can't deploy it. So I think just generally, um,

928
00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:56,640
Speaker 1: you know, the liquidity landscape for startups and company in

929
00:46:56,680 --> 00:47:01,319
Speaker 1: the text space is starting to look very areas. Yeah,

930
00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:03,640
Speaker 1: it just seems like there was just so much money

931
00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:09,440
Speaker 1: in private capital just looking for private market investments. It's uh,

932
00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:12,680
Speaker 1: it's amazing. All right, I'm gonna take you wild to

933
00:47:12,719 --> 00:47:18,120
Speaker 1: do a market we have not discussed before. London real estate. Okay,

934
00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:22,440
Speaker 1: this is a story by our own Lisa Flasher. A

935
00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:26,440
Speaker 1: London flat is up for auction, very small flat, seventy

936
00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:29,080
Speaker 1: five square feet so to picture that if that were

937
00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:31,320
Speaker 1: a rectangle, that would be seven and a half feet

938
00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:36,520
Speaker 1: by ten ft. It's a regular well yeah, you'd have

939
00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:39,200
Speaker 1: to convert it to meters, but we did not convert

940
00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:42,480
Speaker 1: it to meters. Seventy five ft square apartment. It has

941
00:47:42,520 --> 00:47:45,719
Speaker 1: a bathroom, of course, you know when you shower, the

942
00:47:45,719 --> 00:47:47,720
Speaker 1: water lands on the toilet and the sink and everything.

943
00:47:47,719 --> 00:47:50,800
Speaker 1: It's this tiny little bathroom. So I want you to

944
00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:55,359
Speaker 1: guess what the asking price is for this seventy five

945
00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:58,359
Speaker 1: ft square foot flat. About the size of a prison cell,

946
00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:00,560
Speaker 1: I would say, And I will point out that this

947
00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:03,200
Speaker 1: is on the crazy access the price. Access is not

948
00:48:03,239 --> 00:48:05,600
Speaker 1: necessarily what drew my attention to this. It's just the

949
00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:07,799
Speaker 1: tiny nature of the apartment. Oh, I see, so the

950
00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:10,600
Speaker 1: price might not be crazy crazy. I'm going to say

951
00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:14,239
Speaker 1: three hundred thousand pounds. Three hundred thousand pounds. I'm gonna

952
00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:16,480
Speaker 1: keep a poker face, Melton, what's your bid for a

953
00:48:16,560 --> 00:48:20,279
Speaker 1: seventy five square foot London apartment. Let's go with five

954
00:48:20,280 --> 00:48:26,000
Speaker 1: million pounds. Wow, I lived in New York, baby, I've

955
00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:28,600
Speaker 1: seen at all. Oh my gosh. I think you guys

956
00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:32,160
Speaker 1: will be hearing from some London realtors very soon, both

957
00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:34,520
Speaker 1: asking you a bit on this apartment. They're set to

958
00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:37,279
Speaker 1: auction for fifty thousand pounds, which I find is it's

959
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:40,000
Speaker 1: kind of reasonable for a little, you know, bunk bed

960
00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:43,840
Speaker 1: apartment in London. You know, I don't know. Yeah, I

961
00:48:43,840 --> 00:48:45,839
Speaker 1: thought for sure you were going to say like four

962
00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:48,759
Speaker 1: or five said, it's not the price. It's the size

963
00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:50,919
Speaker 1: of the apartment that's crazy, not the price. So we'll see.

964
00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:53,440
Speaker 1: Maybe it we'll go for five million pounds. Melton is

965
00:48:53,440 --> 00:48:55,560
Speaker 1: gonna go buy it for five million to prove us wrong.

966
00:48:55,600 --> 00:49:00,239
Speaker 1: I think I'm not buying it. I read it. I

967
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:03,359
Speaker 1: read another article about a building in nice Bridge where

968
00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:07,040
Speaker 1: apartments were styling for like two two fifty million pounds um.

969
00:49:07,120 --> 00:49:10,040
Speaker 1: That was interesting. A lot of money floating around. Well, Melton,

970
00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:12,680
Speaker 1: I think that's all the time. We have really appreciate

971
00:49:12,719 --> 00:49:16,400
Speaker 1: your insights. Fascinating conversation. We didn't even get to the

972
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:19,400
Speaker 1: the whole bitcoin energy issue, which I hope we can

973
00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:21,600
Speaker 1: have you on some time to talk about that. Actually

974
00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:25,279
Speaker 1: crazy European Parliament just came out with the decree that

975
00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:28,320
Speaker 1: they want to ban all proof of work based cryptocurrencies,

976
00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:30,880
Speaker 1: which is going to be really interesting. We publish a

977
00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:34,239
Speaker 1: lot of research at coin Shares around bitcoins energy consumption.

978
00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:37,839
Speaker 1: It is over seventy renewables driven it's greener than most

979
00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:40,800
Speaker 1: other industries in our world today. I think it is

980
00:49:40,840 --> 00:49:43,640
Speaker 1: really a straw man for government's not liking bitcoins. So

981
00:49:44,040 --> 00:49:46,440
Speaker 1: you know that's all right. Well she got it in there,

982
00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:47,960
Speaker 1: vill Don, and we'll have to have her back on

983
00:49:48,040 --> 00:49:50,560
Speaker 1: to unpack that a little bit because that is certainly

984
00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:55,120
Speaker 1: such a huge, huge issue for for crypto. Melton, thank

985
00:49:55,160 --> 00:49:57,640
Speaker 1: you so much for your time. Thanks and excited to

986
00:49:57,680 --> 00:50:00,960
Speaker 1: be here and excited to see what your audience. Thank you, Malton,

987
00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:13,000
Speaker 1: What Goes Up. We'll be back next week and so

988
00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:15,560
Speaker 1: then you can find us on the Bloomberg Terminal website

989
00:50:15,560 --> 00:50:18,920
Speaker 1: and app or wherever you get your podcast. We'd love

990
00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:20,600
Speaker 1: it if you took the time to rate and review

991
00:50:20,600 --> 00:50:23,640
Speaker 1: the show on Apple Podcasts so more listeners can find us.

992
00:50:24,239 --> 00:50:27,040
Speaker 1: And you can find us on Twitter, follow me at Reaganonymous.

993
00:50:27,360 --> 00:50:31,000
Speaker 1: Katie Greifeld is at k Greifeld. You can also follow

994
00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:34,520
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Podcasts at Podcasts and thank you to Charlie Pell

995
00:50:34,640 --> 00:50:38,320
Speaker 1: to Bloomberg Radio. What Goes Up is produced by Laura Carlson.

996
00:50:38,480 --> 00:50:41,920
Speaker 1: The head of Bloomberg Podcasts is francesco Leavie. Thanks for listening,

997
00:50:42,200 --> 00:51:01,560
Speaker 1: See you next time. Two