WEBVTT - The Hamas Tunnels: Dr. Jeff McCausland Talks to A&G

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<v Speaker 1>One tunnel in Gaza was wide enough for a top

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<v Speaker 1>AMAS official to drive his car back and forth inside

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<v Speaker 1>Another stretch nearly three football fields long, and was hidden

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<v Speaker 1>beneath a hospital under the house of a senior Hamas commander.

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<v Speaker 1>The Israeli military found a spiral staircase leading to a

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<v Speaker 1>tunnel approximately seven stories deep. More and more information about

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<v Speaker 1>the tunnel complex under Gaza is coming to light as

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<v Speaker 1>the Israeli military explorers and documents and ladies journalists to

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<v Speaker 1>them as time goes by. It's unbelievable and really illustrates

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<v Speaker 1>why the tunnels were considered a major threat to the

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<v Speaker 1>Israeli military in Gaza even before the war started. But man,

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<v Speaker 1>they had no idea and we had no idea to

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<v Speaker 1>discuss that in the state of the Israeli Hamas conflict.

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<v Speaker 1>Jeff mccauslin joins us. Jeff is CBS News military consultant. Jeff,

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<v Speaker 1>it's always a pleasure. How are you, sir?

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<v Speaker 2>You won't do it very well. Kind of a frigid

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<v Speaker 2>morning here, it's about eleven degrees outside.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't doubt that. And just as a personal aside,

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<v Speaker 1>you made a lovely and lovely offer several months ago

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<v Speaker 1>that if I and my bride could make it to

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<v Speaker 1>the Gettysburg battlefield, that you'd be happy to do a

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<v Speaker 1>tour with us. And I have not forgotten that, and

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<v Speaker 1>I hope I can take you up on that someday.

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<v Speaker 2>I would cherish that and pre lunch and a beer

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<v Speaker 2>to boot. How's that? Oh?

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<v Speaker 1>Stop it too good? So let's get back to Gaza.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm sure you've seen the accounts of the tunnel complex.

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<v Speaker 1>It's mind blowing, isn't it.

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<v Speaker 2>It is pretty mind blowing. But you know, I have

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<v Speaker 2>to challenge that some of you suggested they're at the top.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, we had no idea. Well, it's really intelligence.

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<v Speaker 2>I think more and more is being described as pretty

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<v Speaker 2>at fault in this particular operation, not having obviously situational

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<v Speaker 2>awareness of the preparation Bijamas to conduct this attack on

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<v Speaker 2>the seventh of October, because they actually had a copy

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<v Speaker 2>of the actual plan, but they described it as asked,

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<v Speaker 2>didn't think Hamas could pull it off, and in fact

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<v Speaker 2>also should have had more I think situational awareness of

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<v Speaker 2>what Hamas is doing. I mean, my goodness, it's one

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<v Speaker 2>hundred and twenty five square mile all surrounded by Israeli territory,

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<v Speaker 2>and you control the airspace. And furthermore, to some degree,

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<v Speaker 2>the Israeli took a blind eye to the importation of

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<v Speaker 2>an awful lot of construction material provided by Katar and

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<v Speaker 2>others here the Gaza Trip over the years. I think

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<v Speaker 2>actually because they wanted to use Hamas as sort of

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<v Speaker 2>a vehicle in which they could describe to people who said,

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<v Speaker 2>you should negotiate with the Palestinians, how came we negotiate

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<v Speaker 2>with these people. But while they did all that, they

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<v Speaker 2>allowed that importation of construction material to enter the Gaza Shrip,

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of which ended up in those tones right.

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<v Speaker 1>It is a public works project, though for lack of

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<v Speaker 1>a better term, of amazing ambition and complexity. It's estimated

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<v Speaker 1>currently that the network of tunnels is between three hundred

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<v Speaker 1>and fifty and four hundred and fifty miles, which is

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<v Speaker 1>astonishing considering that the territory itself, at its longest point

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<v Speaker 1>is only twenty five miles long, and a couple of

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<v Speaker 1>IDF officials assays that they're close to fifty seven hundred

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<v Speaker 1>separate shafts leading down to the tunnels. Fifty seven hundred.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Some people have said this is a more extensive

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<v Speaker 2>tunnel complex than the entire London subway system. And keep

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<v Speaker 2>in mind, as you say, trying to paint a picture here,

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<v Speaker 2>because of the strip is about twice the land area

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<v Speaker 2>size to metropolitan Las Vegas, so it's not that big

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<v Speaker 2>a place. But this extensive tunnel complex makes for a

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<v Speaker 2>tremendous military problem in two ways. One, obviously for the

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<v Speaker 2>israelis to get down those tunnels and try to fight

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<v Speaker 2>them out and destroy them. Underground, well, you give away

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<v Speaker 2>all of the military advantages you have of armor, artillery, aircraft,

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<v Speaker 2>and it's based like fighting under water exactly. Some places

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<v Speaker 2>you have to use breeding apparatuses, so all those advantages

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<v Speaker 2>you have above ground go away. Becomes a much more

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<v Speaker 2>equal fight below grounds, and you're going to take an

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<v Speaker 2>awful lot of cashers in the Israeli military historically has

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<v Speaker 2>been historically adverse. And then second of all, it allows

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<v Speaker 2>Kamas frankly, to re infiltrate. They can fall back as

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<v Speaker 2>they have from Northern Gaza, the Central Gaza, the southern Gaza.

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<v Speaker 2>They can use that tunnel complex to basically reinfiltrate behind

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<v Speaker 2>you and come up behind you. And that's why as

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<v Speaker 2>you do clearing operations, you literally and I was in Pellujah,

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<v Speaker 2>rack a city of two or thousand, which we had

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<v Speaker 2>to go through that against insurgence al Kaida groups. You

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<v Speaker 2>have to go building the building, room to room, door

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<v Speaker 2>to door, closet the closet, basement de basement, addic to addic,

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<v Speaker 2>not only looking for fighters, but looking for weapons explosives

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<v Speaker 2>that people will leave behind because they know they can

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<v Speaker 2>re infiltrate, gather up that weapons and attack you from behind.

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<v Speaker 2>So that makes the whole military operation a lot more complex.

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<v Speaker 1>And I know in the New York Times coverage of

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<v Speaker 1>the recent discoveries rea the tunnels, they mentioned one they

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<v Speaker 1>quoted one IDF soldier is saying every single tunnel he's

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<v Speaker 1>seen has been booby trapped. Now the IDF in the

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<v Speaker 1>Israeli government has said they need to destroy the entire

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<v Speaker 1>tunnel complex to have any hope at peace going forward.

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<v Speaker 1>Considering that it could be three hundred and fifty to

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<v Speaker 1>four hundred and fifty miles of tunnels, some of them

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<v Speaker 1>seven stories down underground. That is a year's long effort,

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<v Speaker 1>isn't that wouldn't it have to be?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's a year's long effort, and you've got to

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<v Speaker 2>understand that doing so, you may compromise structures above ground.

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<v Speaker 2>What does that do then to the you know, the

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<v Speaker 2>structures above ground number one? Number two? What does that do?

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<v Speaker 2>One of the real concerns about going after those tunnels.

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<v Speaker 2>Some people are said to flood them, for example with

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<v Speaker 2>seawater due to the proximity of the coast. But ensuing though,

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<v Speaker 2>you may compromise the water supply in the Gaza Strip,

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<v Speaker 2>which obviously been as a tremendous problem with a two

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<v Speaker 2>point two million Palestinian hitnocent civilians who lived there, and

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<v Speaker 2>then last not least as the Bass with Jory. Now

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<v Speaker 2>two million of the two point two million population, two

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<v Speaker 2>million of them are refugees. They have had to leave

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<v Speaker 2>their homes. Estimated eighty to eighty five percent of all

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<v Speaker 2>the structures in the Gaza Strip have been destroyed or

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<v Speaker 2>damaged and moved south. At the urging of the Israeli

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<v Speaker 2>military as this invasion began, well you really can't, the

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<v Speaker 2>Israeli military argue, we really can't allow them to go

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<v Speaker 2>to their homes, even after we believe we've cleared it

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<v Speaker 2>of the fighters, because of two problems. One reinfiltration number

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<v Speaker 2>one and number two. As you point out the ongoing

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<v Speaker 2>operation to destroy the tunnel complex.

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<v Speaker 1>Boy, this is the future of this is hazy. Indeed,

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<v Speaker 1>the Israeli military has announced that they're going into the

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<v Speaker 1>most hazardous phase of this, which is clearing out the

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<v Speaker 1>tunnels and rooting out the hidden fighters and arms and

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<v Speaker 1>that sort of thing. So this is so far from

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<v Speaker 1>over it seems silly to even talk about it being over. Jeff,

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<v Speaker 1>anything else top of mind about the conflict before we

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<v Speaker 1>let you go?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, what I'm doing concerned about is still in all

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<v Speaker 2>the Israelis have not really talked about what do you

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<v Speaker 2>do the day after, even after you think you've destroyed

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<v Speaker 2>I think destroying Hamas is a bridge too far, perhaps

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<v Speaker 2>destroying its military capabilities. And you know, President or I'm sorry,

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<v Speaker 2>Prime Minister Yahoo just yesterday said, you know, the war

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<v Speaker 2>will continue until the end, until we achieve our goals

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<v Speaker 2>returning to hostage elmiting Hamas and insuring Gaza never again

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<v Speaker 2>constitute the threat to Israel. Well, that may sound reasonable,

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<v Speaker 2>but as you suggest, that's a monumental task. If you've

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<v Speaker 2>got to occupy this particular area of two million people,

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<v Speaker 2>we our rough rule of thumb in Iraq and Afghanistan

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<v Speaker 2>was five to twenty soldiers per thousand to control the population.

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<v Speaker 2>So you're talking forty to fifty thousand israel Israeli soldiers

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<v Speaker 2>in a semi permanent status just to occupy this place

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<v Speaker 2>long term, and you may end up then if you're

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<v Speaker 2>the Israelis looking at the Third Intifada or not. Unlike

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<v Speaker 2>the British army which occupied northern Ireland in nineteen sixty

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<v Speaker 2>eight and they were there until nineteen ninety three, and

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<v Speaker 2>I lived in England during some of the ira bombings.

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<v Speaker 2>I remember a scene of Greece often when I asked him,

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<v Speaker 2>what are you guys accomplishing? His only reply was, we

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<v Speaker 2>have achieved an acceptable level of violence that we're no

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<v Speaker 2>longer including only closer to a long term solution than

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<v Speaker 2>we were in nineteen sixty eight.

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<v Speaker 1>At the same time, it's difficult to come up with

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<v Speaker 1>alternatives for the Israelis that make any sense, and so

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<v Speaker 1>goes history. Sometimes you have a palliative incredibly unpalatable choices.

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<v Speaker 1>Jeff mccauslin's CBS News military consultant, Jeff, Thanks for the enlightenment.

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<v Speaker 1>Good to talk to you. Come out to Gaysburg all right,

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<v Speaker 1>I can't wait. Thank you very much,