1 00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:06,760 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. 2 00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:08,479 Speaker 2: I'm welcome to stuff I never told you, prolected by 3 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:20,720 Speaker 2: Heart Radio, and today we are thrilled once again to 4 00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:25,160 Speaker 2: be joined by the charming, the clever Bridget Todd. Welcome Bridget. 5 00:00:25,560 --> 00:00:27,840 Speaker 3: Thank you for having me every time I come. 6 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:31,360 Speaker 4: I'm always so stoked with whatever superlative you give me 7 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:31,960 Speaker 4: in the intro. 8 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:33,360 Speaker 3: They get better every time. 9 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:38,320 Speaker 2: Thank you. I'm trying not to in my mind cheat 10 00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:41,680 Speaker 2: and use at thesaurus, but who knows, I might have 11 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:43,600 Speaker 2: to break it out one day. 12 00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:47,360 Speaker 3: One day. We're not there yet, not yet, but. 13 00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:49,479 Speaker 2: Yes, Bridget, We're always so happy to have you. 14 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:51,680 Speaker 1: How have you been? 15 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:53,200 Speaker 3: Sweaty as hell? 16 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:54,160 Speaker 5: Uh? 17 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:56,360 Speaker 3: Big? I don't know if it hit you all, but 18 00:00:56,440 --> 00:00:57,920 Speaker 3: big heat wave where I'm at. 19 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:04,120 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's horrified, I were listeners can't see me, thank god. 20 00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:08,200 Speaker 3: But the glistening is not dewey skincare. 21 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:12,479 Speaker 4: It is literal sweat because it is hot as balls 22 00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:17,479 Speaker 4: on the show. Yeah sure, yeah, did you all get 23 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 4: that heat wave? 24 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:21,039 Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yes we did. 25 00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:25,680 Speaker 2: I remember when we moved into kind of like home 26 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:31,120 Speaker 2: studio Pandemic recording, Atlanta gets very hot and I realized, like, 27 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:34,320 Speaker 2: you can't have my aces really loud, and so I 28 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:37,479 Speaker 2: was trying to come up with a solution, and I 29 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:39,839 Speaker 2: came up with all kinds of wonky things, like putting 30 00:01:39,880 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 2: ice packs all around me, putting my underwear on the fridge. 31 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:52,640 Speaker 2: But we definitely did get it, and it was brutal, 32 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:55,279 Speaker 2: it was real. It was real tough. 33 00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 4: Yeah, it makes my It impacts me as a podcaster 34 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:01,000 Speaker 4: because I have like a little sad proof booth, but 35 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 4: you can't have a fan or ac in there because 36 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:06,080 Speaker 4: right ruin the soundproofing. So when I'm in there, I'm 37 00:02:06,120 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 4: just like, I mean sometimes I like, it's just it's 38 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:10,639 Speaker 4: it's like being in a in a sauna. 39 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 3: Yeah. 40 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:15,080 Speaker 2: I have what I call my sweatshirt, which is just 41 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:17,280 Speaker 2: a shirt I wear when I come in here nice 42 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:20,200 Speaker 2: because I don't want to do like laundry every like 43 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:23,040 Speaker 2: so often. So I'm like, this is the shirt I 44 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:25,320 Speaker 2: will sweat through while I'm podcasting. 45 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 3: I love that. Oh I don't like doing laundry and 46 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:33,919 Speaker 3: have to pay for it. 47 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 2: Yes, a lot of my quarters, no way. 48 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:41,639 Speaker 1: So many things in those conversations. 49 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:48,679 Speaker 2: Yes, well, speaking of so many things, I feel a 50 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:51,800 Speaker 2: little bit guilty about this one, Bridget, because it was 51 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:55,360 Speaker 2: a big topic that I was like, you know what, 52 00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:58,960 Speaker 2: I would really love to discuss this, and it's just 53 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:05,040 Speaker 2: a huge, spiraling thing, complicated, but I really appreciate you 54 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 2: bringing it, and I think it's really important and I'm 55 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 2: excited to talk about it and to learn more. So 56 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:13,440 Speaker 2: what are we discussing today? 57 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 3: Today? 58 00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:18,360 Speaker 4: We are diving into the wide world of privacy, specifically 59 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:23,240 Speaker 4: whether or not messaging apps like WhatsApp actually are private. 60 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:26,679 Speaker 4: And I know I can already hear somebody in their 61 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:31,520 Speaker 4: car or washing their dishes right now thinking snooze. Privacy 62 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:33,919 Speaker 4: has nothing to do with me. I don't break the law, 63 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:36,840 Speaker 4: I have nothing to hide. Whatever they have on me, 64 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 4: they already have it. Who cares? That is actually a 65 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 4: very common attitude called privacy nihilism, where you just are like, 66 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 4: the government has all that they're going to have on me, 67 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 4: it doesn't matter. And honestly, I get it. Most of 68 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 4: us probably don't really think twice before you hit send 69 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 4: on a message, right, but what if hitting sen could 70 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:57,960 Speaker 4: put you at risk? And the truth is, in twenty 71 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:02,000 Speaker 4: twenty five, it literally can. You're texting about abortion or 72 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 4: a protest or whatever, your messages could be watched, flagged, 73 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:09,440 Speaker 4: or even used against you. Privacy isn't just for people 74 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 4: with something to hide, It is for people with something 75 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:15,040 Speaker 4: to lose. And right now, in twenty twenty five, given 76 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:19,039 Speaker 4: everything that is going on, that is all of us. 77 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:22,080 Speaker 2: Yes, and we're going to get into this more. But 78 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:29,640 Speaker 2: it seemed that companies at least have tapped into this worry, 79 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:34,240 Speaker 2: this concern, and they're competing with each other in ad campaigns. 80 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 4: Well, Annie, you sent me this ad from WhatsApp that, 81 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 4: in my opinion, heavily implied that WhatsApp is meant to 82 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:43,640 Speaker 4: be like a private, secure messaging platform and that one 83 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:47,400 Speaker 4: could even trust it for a private conversation about healthcare, 84 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 4: like maybe if one was trying to pursue an abortion, 85 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:52,039 Speaker 4: this would be a platform that you could do that securely. 86 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:55,040 Speaker 3: You were also telling me about another ad from Apple. 87 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:59,520 Speaker 4: Where it was like camera birds being launched at people 88 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:00,280 Speaker 4: or some thing. 89 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:06,160 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, that ad is very frightening everyone. It reminds 90 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:08,559 Speaker 2: me of the Black Mirror episode with like the robot dogs. 91 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:11,600 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, army robot dog. 92 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:15,680 Speaker 4: That's like like it's like the post apocalyptic army robot 93 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:16,360 Speaker 4: killer dog. 94 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:17,159 Speaker 3: Oh my god. 95 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:20,039 Speaker 2: Yes, but there's just these like cameras that have bird 96 00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 2: wings and they have this screeching sound they make, and 97 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:28,280 Speaker 2: they fly after people on the street who are looking 98 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:31,600 Speaker 2: at their phone, implying that like they're watching you if 99 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:33,320 Speaker 2: you're on your phone or on your laptop, and they're 100 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:37,240 Speaker 2: like crash into windows and this is a really piercing sound. 101 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:41,120 Speaker 2: It's really disturbing. And then it's an ad for Safari 102 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:45,440 Speaker 2: that's saying, like, other browsers watch you, Safari doesn't. 103 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:50,320 Speaker 4: Definitely, they got their finger on the pulse, and the 104 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:53,720 Speaker 4: pulse of the moment is concern about our vast surveillance state. 105 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:54,800 Speaker 3: That much is clear. 106 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:57,440 Speaker 4: I think people are worried about it, and these I 107 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:00,359 Speaker 4: think these companies are like, oh, let's tap been do 108 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:04,039 Speaker 4: people's understandable concern about the surveillance state right now. 109 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:07,280 Speaker 2: It's so odd though, because like when I sent you 110 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:13,280 Speaker 2: that the WhatsApp campaign, it's it's strange to me in 111 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 2: a way that we're living in such a dystopian world 112 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:19,240 Speaker 2: where there are ads that are like, you don't want 113 00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:24,720 Speaker 2: anyone to know about your medical you don't want It 114 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:28,839 Speaker 2: just has this vibe of overall, it's probably not safe 115 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:31,960 Speaker 2: for people to know about these things. I don't know 116 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:36,000 Speaker 2: which is true. It's absolutely true, but it's strange that 117 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:37,600 Speaker 2: it's in an ad campaign. 118 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:40,280 Speaker 4: It's weird to get reminded of it while you're watching 119 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:45,000 Speaker 4: Bob's Burgers. Like, I totally understand the like it does 120 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:46,159 Speaker 4: feel rather dystopian. 121 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:48,520 Speaker 3: I totally get it. Yes. 122 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 4: Oh, and I should say right off the top that 123 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:55,240 Speaker 4: I'm not like an online privacy expert. 124 00:06:55,279 --> 00:06:57,680 Speaker 3: I don't work in it. I would more call myself 125 00:06:57,720 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 3: a privacy enthusiast. 126 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:01,920 Speaker 4: One of the projects that I work on, in addition 127 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:03,919 Speaker 4: to my own podcast or own Our Girls on the Internet, 128 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:06,359 Speaker 4: is a podcast that I make with the Mozilla Foundation, 129 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:09,720 Speaker 4: the makers of the browser Firefox, called IRL, and it's 130 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:14,320 Speaker 4: a podcast all about technology, AI, ethics, and of course privacy. 131 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:16,440 Speaker 4: We actually just launched our brand new season a few 132 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:19,360 Speaker 4: weeks ago, so folks should check it out. But what's 133 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:22,040 Speaker 4: interesting about the show, I think, is that we're really 134 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:25,360 Speaker 4: trying to make these conversations that might feel wonky or 135 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:29,600 Speaker 4: inaccessible accessible for everybody. And I think that it's important 136 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:32,680 Speaker 4: for folks like me, who aren't necessarily privacy experts or 137 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 4: don't work in it, to have a sense of the 138 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 4: privacy of the technology and the platforms that we do 139 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:40,400 Speaker 4: use every day, like we shouldn't treat those as conversations 140 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:43,200 Speaker 4: that are just for experts, And especially in twenty twenty 141 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:48,840 Speaker 4: five when as we were just discussing the vibes it's 142 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:52,400 Speaker 4: giving nineteen eighty four. At times, it's giving dystopian, it's giving, 143 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 4: you know, something out of a scary novel, only it's real. 144 00:07:56,680 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 4: That's I mean, I don't know if that's how you 145 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:00,880 Speaker 4: all are feeling, but that's how I'm feeling. And so, yeah, 146 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:03,640 Speaker 4: privacy and the privacy around the apps that we use 147 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 4: every single day becomes even more important. 148 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 2: Yes, and I know we're going to talk about it, 149 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 2: but we've seen instances of these apps turning over data 150 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:19,320 Speaker 2: that people thought was private, weren't thinking that it was 151 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 2: going to be shared in this way. So, and you know, 152 00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:27,080 Speaker 2: I have to say, WhatsApp is an app that I 153 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:30,520 Speaker 2: only have experienced generally with my international friends, but I 154 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 2: did always get this vibe that it was more secure 155 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:40,200 Speaker 2: other apps. So when I saw this ad campaign, what 156 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:43,200 Speaker 2: set me off was not WhatsApp. It's when I saw 157 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:48,080 Speaker 2: meta at the bottom of it. Yeah, and I was like, okay, wait, 158 00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:50,720 Speaker 2: now I have a lot of concerns. Now I have 159 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:55,360 Speaker 2: a lot of concerns. So yeah, that's what's going on 160 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:56,520 Speaker 2: with WhatsApp here. 161 00:08:56,840 --> 00:08:59,600 Speaker 4: So let's get into it. For folks who maybe don't 162 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:02,960 Speaker 4: know about WhatsApp. It is a free global messaging platform 163 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:04,840 Speaker 4: that was launched in two thousand and nine, and it 164 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:08,480 Speaker 4: allows folks to send texts, voice messages, video messages, make 165 00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:11,960 Speaker 4: voice and video calls, share images, documents, user locations, and 166 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:12,679 Speaker 4: other content. 167 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:16,760 Speaker 3: It has over two billion billion with a B users. 168 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 4: There are like eight billion people on planet Earth, so like, 169 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:23,120 Speaker 4: that is a lot of users. And in twenty sixteen 170 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:26,080 Speaker 4: it became the number one messaging platform in the world. 171 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:28,559 Speaker 4: And Annie, you were just talking about how you associate 172 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:31,400 Speaker 4: it with like international folks, and that is absolutely true 173 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:34,840 Speaker 4: because it is particularly important for global communication. If you 174 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 4: have aunties or cousins in another country, odds are you've 175 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:43,120 Speaker 4: probably used WhatsApp to stay in touch. And by twenty sixteen, 176 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:46,440 Speaker 4: it was the primary means of internet communication and regions 177 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:49,960 Speaker 4: including the Americas, the Indian subcontinent, and large parts. 178 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:54,080 Speaker 3: Of Europe and Africa. So yeah, it is a very 179 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:56,160 Speaker 3: very popular messaging platform. 180 00:09:56,320 --> 00:09:59,440 Speaker 4: In twenty fourteen, it was bought by Meta, the company 181 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:01,080 Speaker 4: that runs space Book. But back then it was still 182 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 4: just called Facebook. Listeners have rightly called me out for 183 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 4: sometimes mixing up those two names. Facebook was Facebook in 184 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:09,719 Speaker 4: twenty fourteen, they changed their name to Meta to sort 185 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:10,760 Speaker 4: of avoid some scandals. 186 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:11,760 Speaker 3: But Facebook and. 187 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:13,559 Speaker 4: Meta for the most part, or like you could think 188 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:16,600 Speaker 4: of them as interchangeable for the most part. And so 189 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:20,280 Speaker 4: they bought WhatsApp in twenty fourteen. And that means that 190 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:23,160 Speaker 4: like the same way that for me, getting online when 191 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:26,920 Speaker 4: I was a kid meant America Online, like America Online 192 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:31,319 Speaker 4: functionally was the Internet for me, Facebook is essentially the 193 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:35,320 Speaker 4: Internet for a whole a whole big swatch of people 194 00:10:35,559 --> 00:10:37,960 Speaker 4: all over the world, right, And this is all controlled 195 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:41,280 Speaker 4: by one person and one company, Mark Zuckerberg. And so 196 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 4: really think about that, this one private company basically has 197 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 4: total control of the main method of how people get 198 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:52,520 Speaker 4: information and communicate with each other. So that gives him, specifically, 199 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 4: like an incredible amount of power, power that I would 200 00:10:56,160 --> 00:11:00,439 Speaker 4: argue has not always been used ethically or responsibly and 201 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:02,280 Speaker 4: not always done in a way that keeps what's best 202 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:05,839 Speaker 4: for people at the forefront. So if you're asking the 203 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:09,040 Speaker 4: big question of like whether or not you would trust 204 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:13,760 Speaker 4: WhatsApp run by Meta at their word that they are private. 205 00:11:14,559 --> 00:11:15,960 Speaker 4: I mean, it really comes down to the fact, like 206 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:18,960 Speaker 4: do you trust Facebook, do you trust Mark Zuckerberg, Because 207 00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:22,840 Speaker 4: that's really what it comes down to. How Facebook and 208 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 4: Zuckerberg define what privacy is, like what is private and 209 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:30,160 Speaker 4: what is not private, and like what that means. And 210 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:32,760 Speaker 4: so this is where it gets a little bit confusing. 211 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:37,199 Speaker 4: WhatsApp's messages are and to end encrypted by default, so 212 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:39,560 Speaker 4: you don't have to turn anything on to message in 213 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 4: that way, both for messages and for calls. And bottom 214 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:45,280 Speaker 4: line is like that is very good for privacy. So 215 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 4: I want to be clear that I'm not saying that 216 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:52,400 Speaker 4: WhatsApp specifically is bad for privacy. However, the way that 217 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:56,360 Speaker 4: Meta operates as a company is what, in my opinion, makes. 218 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:57,320 Speaker 3: Things a little bit murky. 219 00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:02,080 Speaker 4: Mozilla's privacy not included blows put it like this, WhatsApp 220 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:04,960 Speaker 4: is owned by Facebook, which means Facebook can access some 221 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:08,920 Speaker 4: data WhatsApp collects on you for specified purposes, which may be. 222 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:09,920 Speaker 3: Bad for privacy. 223 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:12,920 Speaker 4: So this means WhatsApp might be collecting data on you 224 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:15,040 Speaker 4: when you use it, and we actually sort of know 225 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:17,360 Speaker 4: this is the case. As of September twenty twenty one. 226 00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:20,560 Speaker 4: It is known that WhatsApp makes extensive use of outside 227 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:24,480 Speaker 4: contractors and AI systems to examine certain messages, images and 228 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:27,560 Speaker 4: videos that have been flagged by users as possibly abusive, 229 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:31,920 Speaker 4: and it turns over to law enforcement metadata, including critical 230 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:36,719 Speaker 4: account and location information. So again it really comes down 231 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:40,240 Speaker 4: to whether or not you consider that to be private. 232 00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:45,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, and also, given like a lot of other news 233 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:48,960 Speaker 2: that's happened with Meta and Mark Zuckerberg, that just reverses 234 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:52,520 Speaker 2: everything that they said they were going to do. So 235 00:12:52,679 --> 00:12:58,240 Speaker 2: it's also I feel an extension of that is do 236 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:01,400 Speaker 2: I believe they're actually going to stick with this thing? 237 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 2: Are they just going to change it? 238 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:06,120 Speaker 4: I mean, I think it's reasonable to look at how 239 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:10,520 Speaker 4: companies historically have moved when they say things. When they 240 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:13,080 Speaker 4: say one thing and then do the opposite, I think 241 00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 4: all of that plays into the question of, like whether 242 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:19,120 Speaker 4: or not you're comfortable with them having information about you 243 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:21,720 Speaker 4: that could potentially wind you in jail. This is not 244 00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:23,920 Speaker 4: a hypothetical. We'll talk more about this in a moment, 245 00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:28,040 Speaker 4: but like that has happened. Conversations people had on Facebook 246 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:30,840 Speaker 4: platforms have led to them being in prison. 247 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:33,880 Speaker 3: So like that's in my book, that's like you're. 248 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:36,680 Speaker 4: Giving quite a bit of trust to these platforms. And 249 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:41,160 Speaker 4: you know, as I said, Meta owns Facebook, WhatsApp, Instagram, 250 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:44,320 Speaker 4: and also works with a sprawling network of third parties 251 00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:47,800 Speaker 4: and contractors, sometimes in like very opaque ways. And so 252 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 4: my sense is that Meta is like, oh, well, WhatsApp 253 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:54,400 Speaker 4: itself is encrypted, so that means it's private, and then 254 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:57,360 Speaker 4: conveniently leave out that users who are concerned about their 255 00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 4: privacy might also be concerned about how and what data 256 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 4: is then being shared with third parties. Like I think 257 00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:08,439 Speaker 4: that Facebook is like, well, we're encrypted, so that's private. 258 00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:14,480 Speaker 4: And how Facebook and other companies access data, it's still private. 259 00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:17,720 Speaker 3: I think that's there. That's their their their play there. 260 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:22,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it does feel very like, I don't know, 261 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 2: kind of shuffling it, Like even going back to that AD, 262 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:28,840 Speaker 2: the Meta symbols very small and that AD, I have 263 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:31,960 Speaker 2: to say, I think they were like, we know people 264 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:35,000 Speaker 2: know that we've gone through these scandals, but also kind 265 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 2: of shuffling it off to the user of you should 266 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 2: figure out this was on you. If you were worried 267 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:46,000 Speaker 2: about privacy, then I don't know why you didn't take 268 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:47,200 Speaker 2: whatever steps. 269 00:14:47,800 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 5: Yeah, I remember, and WhatsApp was bought out, and everybody 270 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:03,840 Speaker 5: was really upset because I think at that point a 271 00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:06,280 Speaker 5: lot of protests and like a lot of gatherings had 272 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:10,800 Speaker 5: happened through different messengers like WhatsApp because it were supposed 273 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:13,440 Speaker 5: to being encrypted, and then Facebook bar amount and everybody 274 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 5: lost that. I remember people talking about what to do next, 275 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:18,760 Speaker 5: and that's when Signal kind of got its big boost. 276 00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:19,640 Speaker 1: If I remember correctly. 277 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:21,280 Speaker 5: I mean they've always been pretty big, but it got 278 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:24,080 Speaker 5: the bigger boost because WhatsApp it eventually became known as 279 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:26,040 Speaker 5: now it's going to be Facebook, and then they were 280 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:27,200 Speaker 5: real quiet about it. 281 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:29,680 Speaker 1: They made sure not to change the brand or. 282 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:31,840 Speaker 5: The logo, and then they were just I think, really 283 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:36,040 Speaker 5: hoping people would forget who owned WhatsApp. And I feel 284 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:37,520 Speaker 5: like the same way like you were talking about, when 285 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:40,520 Speaker 5: people start clicking on doing the messengers and you get 286 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:43,040 Speaker 5: the little you have to read this, this is our 287 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:45,280 Speaker 5: terms of service, and no one reads that. Let's look 288 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:48,600 Speaker 5: it really honest, it's hard to even decipher. I actually 289 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:52,000 Speaker 5: had a similar incident with my loans and when everything was. 290 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:54,840 Speaker 1: Popping off about doge or doge uh. 291 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:57,440 Speaker 5: Doing those weird things and looking at the loans and 292 00:15:57,480 --> 00:15:58,360 Speaker 5: everybody's coming up. 293 00:15:58,320 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 1: With a that's illegal. 294 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:03,280 Speaker 6: Y'all told us if it gets preached by like organizations 295 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:06,160 Speaker 6: like this, then our loans has to be forgiven. My 296 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:10,040 Speaker 6: specific loan side came back with a whole agreement that 297 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 6: it tells me by the way, a third party can't 298 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:14,840 Speaker 6: get access if given permission by blah blah blah. 299 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:17,200 Speaker 5: If you agree to this, you can log in. If 300 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 5: you don't, you can't log in period. 301 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 4: But what like, let's like be so for real what 302 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:25,760 Speaker 4: I have like read with a five. First of all, 303 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:27,880 Speaker 4: you're not an attorney, you're not a lawyer, you're not 304 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 4: a contract expert. 305 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:29,840 Speaker 3: You don't have. 306 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:32,640 Speaker 4: All day to read sometimes what it's like thirty pages 307 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:36,920 Speaker 4: of fine print, Like literally there are artists and activists 308 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:39,920 Speaker 4: who have printed out the terms of service that you 309 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:42,720 Speaker 4: have to like, you know, agree to and it'll be 310 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:46,520 Speaker 4: pages and pages and pages long. And that's not a reasonable. 311 00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:49,400 Speaker 4: It's not reasonable to expect you to be able to 312 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:52,120 Speaker 4: read and understand all of that just to get information 313 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:52,880 Speaker 4: about your loan. 314 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:54,960 Speaker 3: So like, let's be, let's like be for real. 315 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:58,080 Speaker 6: They're literally holding your stuff, huss hostage. I feel like 316 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 6: that's also I feel like this was a thing with Facebook, 317 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:04,919 Speaker 6: especially when they started changing terms and like, yeah, if 318 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:06,439 Speaker 6: you want to log in, you can, but you have 319 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:09,680 Speaker 6: to give us access to your computer, your information. We 320 00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:12,800 Speaker 6: have ownership of all your pictures that you're posting. Like, 321 00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:13,679 Speaker 6: I feel like they were. 322 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:15,280 Speaker 1: Kind of the beginning of that as well. 323 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:18,199 Speaker 4: So it's so funny that you say this because in 324 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:20,119 Speaker 4: twenty twenty one and this all sort of came to 325 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:22,879 Speaker 4: a head when Apple and Facebook kind of had a 326 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:26,960 Speaker 4: dispute about this very thing, right, So Apple made this 327 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:30,439 Speaker 4: update to their app store which gave users privacy labels 328 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:33,240 Speaker 4: that showed all the different data that that app. 329 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:33,679 Speaker 3: Will link to you. 330 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:38,080 Speaker 4: So when What's App, owned by Meta was in the 331 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:41,440 Speaker 4: app store, Apple published this information that's like, oh, here's 332 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:43,640 Speaker 4: the data that this app will link to you, and 333 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:46,920 Speaker 4: people were like, uh, wait a minute. I was told 334 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:49,800 Speaker 4: this was private, Like, why are you linking so much 335 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 4: data to me? So then after that, WhatsApp updated their 336 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:57,600 Speaker 4: privacy policy, which inadvertently highlighted they're years old policy of 337 00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:01,640 Speaker 4: sharing certain user data like phone numbers Facebook. So people 338 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:05,240 Speaker 4: who were concerned about their privacy obviously freaked out. And 339 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:09,119 Speaker 4: then Ireland hit What'sapp with a record two hundred and 340 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:12,080 Speaker 4: sixty six million dollar fine for an alleged lack of 341 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:15,360 Speaker 4: transparency over how it shares data with Facebook. 342 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:19,040 Speaker 3: So when Apple actually gave users. 343 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:21,760 Speaker 4: The tool to be like, oh, I can make an 344 00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:25,679 Speaker 4: informed decision transparently about how my data is shared on 345 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:28,800 Speaker 4: this app, people were like, nah, I don't actually like that. 346 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:32,720 Speaker 4: Like it really revealed that perhaps WhatsApp is not as 347 00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:35,520 Speaker 4: private as some of these ads would have us believe. 348 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:41,040 Speaker 2: Yes, And so going back to the ad where I 349 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:43,480 Speaker 2: was like, bridget, I would love if we could talk 350 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:44,000 Speaker 2: about this. 351 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:45,800 Speaker 3: It's a what's up ad? 352 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:49,040 Speaker 2: And I thought it was about abortion, but I've seen 353 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 2: it since and now I'm like, Okay, it's just some 354 00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:56,760 Speaker 2: medical situation. It's never clearly stated it's an abortion or 355 00:18:56,800 --> 00:19:00,440 Speaker 2: anything like that. But the fact that my mind imediately 356 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:04,800 Speaker 2: went to, oh, this is they're talking about abortion or 357 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:10,280 Speaker 2: like kind of implying abortion, and I was I recoiled 358 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:15,960 Speaker 2: so viscerally because I was just like, no, that's that's terrible, 359 00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:19,879 Speaker 2: Like we can't be telling people this. And they have 360 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:23,040 Speaker 2: like a nice little they show people typing, and the 361 00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:26,560 Speaker 2: all the letters get all mixed up with numbers and 362 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:28,920 Speaker 2: stuff like that, so you can't see what they're typing. 363 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:34,720 Speaker 2: But I think that goes to show the concerns a 364 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:39,000 Speaker 2: lot of us have of this technology that's telling you. 365 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:41,440 Speaker 2: They're like, oh no, it's private, you can do this 366 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:46,879 Speaker 2: thing that has unfortunately become dangerous are risky for a 367 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:50,880 Speaker 2: lot of people. And my mind immediately was like, abortion, No, 368 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:51,600 Speaker 2: that's bad. 369 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:55,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, I saw the ad to I also. I mean, 370 00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:58,359 Speaker 4: I think they were trying to like you're not seeing 371 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:01,000 Speaker 4: things like they don't come out and say it. But 372 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:04,800 Speaker 4: I had the same interpretation of that ad as you did. 373 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 4: And I think it's just I think people should just 374 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:09,320 Speaker 4: know what's up about what's app like, they should understand 375 00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:12,119 Speaker 4: like what is actually happening. Because if I were to 376 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:14,080 Speaker 4: use any analogy to explain on it, I would say, 377 00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:18,320 Speaker 4: there's private in that you told your good girlfriend something 378 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:19,840 Speaker 4: and she took it to her grave that she never 379 00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:23,399 Speaker 4: told a soul. And then there's private like that you 380 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:25,760 Speaker 4: told your good girlfriend something and she shared it with 381 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:26,400 Speaker 4: her husband. 382 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 3: And it's one thing. 383 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:30,000 Speaker 4: When we're talking about like a juicy secret, it's another 384 00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:32,840 Speaker 4: and we're talking about something that unfortunately like could get. 385 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:33,360 Speaker 3: You locked up. 386 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:37,840 Speaker 4: And you know, when it comes to abortion, we know 387 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:40,879 Speaker 4: that Facebook does have a bit of a track record 388 00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:44,159 Speaker 4: with this. So Facebook turned over the chads of a 389 00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:47,439 Speaker 4: mother and daughter to Nebraska police after they were served 390 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:50,480 Speaker 4: with a warrant as part of an investigation into an 391 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:55,240 Speaker 4: illegal abortion, so they notably, these two women were not 392 00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:58,679 Speaker 4: using WhatsApp, they were using Facebook Messenger. But I do 393 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:01,719 Speaker 4: think it shows some in into how this all works because, 394 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:04,600 Speaker 4: as I said, it's all the same umbrella company Meta. 395 00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:08,600 Speaker 4: So in June, before Rowe was overturned, Facebook gave the 396 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:11,800 Speaker 4: police department in Norfolk, Nebraska, access to their private messages 397 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:14,480 Speaker 4: that Jessica Burgess and her then seventeen year old daughter 398 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:18,040 Speaker 4: shared about how to obtain abortion bills. Burgess ended up 399 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:20,240 Speaker 4: getting sentenced to two years in prison and. 400 00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:21,600 Speaker 3: Her daughter got ninety days. 401 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:25,160 Speaker 4: The platform that they were using to communicate, Facebook Messenger 402 00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:28,440 Speaker 4: does offer and to add encryption, just like WhatsApp does, 403 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:31,760 Speaker 4: meaning that the chats between the two women were only 404 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:34,520 Speaker 4: visible to them on their phones and not readable by 405 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:37,639 Speaker 4: Facebook or any government entity that makes a legal request 406 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:41,960 Speaker 4: to the company. But that option is really only available 407 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:45,399 Speaker 4: to folks who were using Facebook Messenger on the app 408 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:47,600 Speaker 4: on a mobile device, not like on desktop or on 409 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:48,600 Speaker 4: a laptop or something. 410 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:50,680 Speaker 3: And the messages are only. 411 00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:53,960 Speaker 4: Encrypted after users selects the option to mark those chats 412 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:56,919 Speaker 4: as secret. So you can see how that's less secure 413 00:21:57,040 --> 00:22:00,199 Speaker 4: than WhatsApp that has that as a default setting to 414 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:03,840 Speaker 4: go in and click secret on mobile to get that 415 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:07,520 Speaker 4: end to end encryption. And what's worse is that Facebook 416 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:11,320 Speaker 4: just immediately complied by giving these chats over to the police, 417 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:14,440 Speaker 4: which they really don't have to do. Legal experts told 418 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:17,280 Speaker 4: The Guardian that Facebook could have fought the warrant in court. 419 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:20,760 Speaker 4: In there other instances where tech companies have refused to 420 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:24,480 Speaker 4: comply with government demands. Apple refused to comply with federal 421 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:27,359 Speaker 4: law enforcement's request to break into an iPhone involving the 422 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:30,760 Speaker 4: Sin Bernardino shooting back in twenty sixteen, and Facebook itself 423 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:34,080 Speaker 4: successfully refused to comply with a wiretapping request for messenger 424 00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:37,639 Speaker 4: calls back in twenty eighteen. So they don't have to 425 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:41,040 Speaker 4: give this information over to police, but they do, and 426 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:42,199 Speaker 4: they're able to have it. 427 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:48,959 Speaker 2: And that's that's the frightening thing, because we use, all 428 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:53,800 Speaker 2: of us use this stuff in some way or another, 429 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:56,480 Speaker 2: maybe not Facebook Messenger or maybe not What'sapp. But it's 430 00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:59,199 Speaker 2: just a concern with all of these platforms of you 431 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:07,560 Speaker 2: know what, I thought this was a something that was private. Yeah, 432 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:09,720 Speaker 2: I'm going to jail, or it's been turned over. 433 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:11,800 Speaker 6: We can talk about the fact that they have been 434 00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:15,159 Speaker 6: hacked so many what my WhatsApp has been hacked so 435 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:17,680 Speaker 6: many times. My messenger has been hacked so much. 436 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:18,960 Speaker 1: I was like, I've f this. 437 00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:21,560 Speaker 5: I'm not doing this anymore, and I completely refuse to 438 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:24,280 Speaker 5: use it except anytime anyone sends me a message, whether 439 00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:25,240 Speaker 5: it's my partner or someone. 440 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:27,720 Speaker 6: You have to download it if you're not on the laptop. 441 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:30,359 Speaker 6: But and even on the laptop, you can't get it 442 00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:34,640 Speaker 6: unless you do you download the app and get another code, 443 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:36,680 Speaker 6: which is like, what you're making me do this? 444 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:41,520 Speaker 4: So I actually included all the different instances of WhatsApp 445 00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:42,280 Speaker 4: being hacked. 446 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:46,080 Speaker 3: There are many, there's a there's many, many many. 447 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 4: At the last minute, I was like, well, hacking is 448 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:52,639 Speaker 4: different than and again it's not different than privacy. 449 00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:54,200 Speaker 3: I made a game day decision to be. 450 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:57,040 Speaker 4: Like, let's let's exclude hacking from the conversation. 451 00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:00,240 Speaker 3: But I don't like you what's that beginning hacked? Like 452 00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:01,320 Speaker 3: it's a real thing. 453 00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:03,399 Speaker 6: I mean, if they want to say be you know, 454 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:05,840 Speaker 6: like it's secure and private and all these things, but 455 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:07,800 Speaker 6: like one goes in hand in hand. How'm I gonna 456 00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:09,840 Speaker 6: trust you if every other day I get a message 457 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:11,919 Speaker 6: from this person they're saying, Hey, did you send me 458 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:14,840 Speaker 6: these things? Just because I opened an app and it 459 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:18,880 Speaker 6: turns out that someone has hacked into my account? Like, obviously, 460 00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:21,480 Speaker 6: if you can't even get like the security to keep 461 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:24,879 Speaker 6: my stuff, okay, how do you have the ability to 462 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:25,639 Speaker 6: keep it private? 463 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:29,560 Speaker 3: Exactly? Just and just to be super clear, even. 464 00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:32,520 Speaker 4: If WhatsApp their encryption means that they cannot hand the 465 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:35,879 Speaker 4: content of your messages over to the police, if the 466 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:38,439 Speaker 4: police were trying to build a case against you that 467 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 4: relied on location data, like say, did you travel to 468 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:45,159 Speaker 4: xyz location to obtain an abortion and you live in 469 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:47,840 Speaker 4: a place where you were not legally permitted to travel 470 00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:50,239 Speaker 4: across state lines to do so, or like were you 471 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:54,200 Speaker 4: at x y z protest? WhatsApp has metadata, So even 472 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:56,960 Speaker 4: if they can't give you get the actual messages, they're 473 00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:00,199 Speaker 4: fine giving metadata, which includes things like your location or 474 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:03,560 Speaker 4: contacts who you were messaging. They're fine to give that 475 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:06,280 Speaker 4: information over and so and they have that information. And 476 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 4: so it's really about understanding privacy in a more holistic 477 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:12,760 Speaker 4: way that it's not just about the content of your messages. 478 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:15,679 Speaker 4: It's about how secure is its platform, Like is it 479 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:16,520 Speaker 4: easily hacked? 480 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:18,520 Speaker 3: Is it hackable? Does it have a history of being hacked? 481 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:21,439 Speaker 3: You know, what kind of metadata are they collecting? How 482 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:22,640 Speaker 3: do they use that metadata? 483 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:25,840 Speaker 4: It's really about asking all of these background questions in 484 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:29,560 Speaker 4: addition to just like how do they keep my content safe? 485 00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:34,800 Speaker 2: Right? And on top of that, it's also there are 486 00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:38,840 Speaker 2: some things some laws that we have that sort of 487 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:45,000 Speaker 2: allow for them to be like, yeah, we can track you, right, Yeah. 488 00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:47,199 Speaker 4: So I learned this in doing the research for this 489 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:51,480 Speaker 4: episode that thanks to the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, they're 490 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:55,360 Speaker 4: basically able to track users without probable cause. In January 491 00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:59,000 Speaker 4: twenty twenty two, an unsealed surveillance application revealed that WhatsApp 492 00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:02,440 Speaker 4: started tracking even users from China and November twenty twenty one, 493 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:06,479 Speaker 4: based on a request from USDA investigators. The app collected 494 00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:09,400 Speaker 4: data on who the user's contacted and how often and 495 00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:10,560 Speaker 4: when and how they were. 496 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:11,119 Speaker 3: Using the app. 497 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:15,359 Speaker 4: And this is reportedly not an isolated thing, as federal 498 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:19,080 Speaker 4: agencies can use the Electronic Communications Privacy App to covertly 499 00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:22,520 Speaker 4: track users without submitting any probable cause or linking a 500 00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:24,240 Speaker 4: user's number to their identity. 501 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 3: And I should just. 502 00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:29,480 Speaker 4: Add a sort of global note about this whole thing 503 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:33,000 Speaker 4: is that WhatsApp has two different platforms, regular WhatsApp and 504 00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:36,000 Speaker 4: then WhatsApp Business that's meant for small businesses to communicate. 505 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:38,400 Speaker 3: That was rolled out in twenty eighteen. Everything that I've 506 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:38,800 Speaker 3: said so. 507 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:42,720 Speaker 4: Far is really about regular WhatsApp, and that's because WhatsApp's 508 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:48,480 Speaker 4: business platform is actually less private. So yeah, don't use 509 00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:53,640 Speaker 4: that to talk about anything. 510 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:52,040 Speaker 2: To go. 511 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:55,600 Speaker 4: Well, I mean it kind of makes sense because like 512 00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:58,879 Speaker 4: if you're if you're a business entity, you're communicating with 513 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:00,640 Speaker 4: so many different people in a different way. 514 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:03,280 Speaker 3: But like I kind of get where they're coming from there. 515 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:05,600 Speaker 4: But I just wanted to say that in case someone's like, oh, 516 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:08,919 Speaker 4: I have what'sapp business, like, let me use it the 517 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:10,920 Speaker 4: way that Bridgette told me I should be using it. 518 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:12,679 Speaker 4: Like that's a whole different beast. 519 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:15,520 Speaker 1: Yeah. I thought that was gonna be an upgrade. 520 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:17,560 Speaker 3: Not downgrade. 521 00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:19,640 Speaker 1: It's not business class. 522 00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:24,520 Speaker 3: No, it's on a plane. It's like better, but if 523 00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:26,280 Speaker 3: it's worse, not this much. 524 00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:44,480 Speaker 2: Okay, Okay, Well we have been you know, focusing on WhatsApp, 525 00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:52,280 Speaker 2: and surely all of the all of these applications we 526 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:55,359 Speaker 2: could talk about, but you know, what's app in particular, 527 00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:02,920 Speaker 2: how how's it doing with privacy when it comes to privacy. 528 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:06,680 Speaker 4: So, as I said, ultimately, WhatsApp, I would say, is 529 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:10,080 Speaker 4: like pretty private, like good for privacy. Here's how Mozilla's 530 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 4: privacy experts put it. From a technical perspective. No, WhatsApp 531 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:17,159 Speaker 4: itself is not really bad for privacy. WhatsApp use this 532 00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:20,040 Speaker 4: strong end to end encryption for all texts, chats, and 533 00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:20,840 Speaker 4: video calls. 534 00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:21,720 Speaker 3: This is great. 535 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:25,199 Speaker 4: WhatsApp cannot read your messages or see your call. The 536 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:28,119 Speaker 4: flip side of this is Facebook, a company infamous for 537 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:31,480 Speaker 4: its vast and questionably ethical collection of so much data, 538 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:35,199 Speaker 4: owns WhatsApp. This means that lots of metadata, things like 539 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:39,360 Speaker 4: purchase history, location, device idea and more can be captured 540 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:41,760 Speaker 4: and shared with businesses advertising on WhatsApp. 541 00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:44,160 Speaker 3: So people looking for a true. 542 00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:48,160 Speaker 4: Privacy centered messaging app can find much better options. 543 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:51,960 Speaker 2: Yes, and speaking of. 544 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:54,880 Speaker 3: Option, peeing me. 545 00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:57,720 Speaker 4: Up beautifully to talk about one of my favorite apps, 546 00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:00,800 Speaker 4: and that is Signal. I am such a Signal fangirl. 547 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:02,560 Speaker 4: I had been a fangirl of Signal for a very 548 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:07,000 Speaker 4: long time. I remember the very first time I encountered Signal. 549 00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:09,360 Speaker 3: I was like trying to date somebody, and. 550 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:11,800 Speaker 4: This person eventually became a very good friend of mine, 551 00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:15,720 Speaker 4: but initially I was like, oh, what's this platform? And 552 00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:18,000 Speaker 4: I was telling a friend like, oh, I met this 553 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:20,040 Speaker 4: this person and they didn't give me their number. They 554 00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:22,520 Speaker 4: were like, here's my signal. And my friend I was 555 00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:25,480 Speaker 4: telling this too, was like, are they an eco terrorist? 556 00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 4: Because back then the only person who who you would 557 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:31,440 Speaker 4: have signal on their phone was an eco terrorist. Like 558 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:34,400 Speaker 4: that is how long I've been with Signal. But Signal 559 00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:35,040 Speaker 4: is amazing. 560 00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:38,400 Speaker 3: It is free. Everyone listening should download Signal right now. 561 00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:41,320 Speaker 4: And it is run by an incredible nonprofit that is 562 00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:44,520 Speaker 4: helmed by this woman, Meredith Whittaker, who is this bad 563 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:47,520 Speaker 4: woman in technology who does a lot of interesting writing 564 00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:48,280 Speaker 4: on surveillance. 565 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:51,000 Speaker 3: I genuinely, like deeply, deeply admire her. 566 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:53,760 Speaker 4: If you ever want to be really challenged in a 567 00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:56,640 Speaker 4: good way, like watch up videos of her lectures. 568 00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:58,640 Speaker 3: She's just a fascinating. 569 00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:01,200 Speaker 4: Human being and so a Signal generally considered to be 570 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:04,000 Speaker 4: more secure in privates than WhatsApp due to its just 571 00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:08,680 Speaker 4: general commitment to user privacy as a nonprofit and its 572 00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:09,680 Speaker 4: open source nature. 573 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:12,280 Speaker 3: While WhatsApp uses end to end. 574 00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:16,360 Speaker 4: Encryption, Signal goes further by not collecting any user metadata 575 00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:20,280 Speaker 4: and being backed by this nonprofit organization, which generally does 576 00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:23,080 Speaker 4: minimize the potential for that kind of data exploitation, right. 577 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:26,880 Speaker 4: And so, whereas they're both using end to end encryption, 578 00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:31,800 Speaker 4: WhatsApp does collect and share metadata, Signal does not. 579 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:32,920 Speaker 3: They don't collect any of that. 580 00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:37,160 Speaker 4: So that is definitely the better platform if you're talking 581 00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:40,600 Speaker 4: about anything at all sensitive and honestly, it's just a 582 00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:43,840 Speaker 4: platform that I use, like as like, most of my 583 00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:45,920 Speaker 4: conversations are happening on Signal. 584 00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:50,239 Speaker 6: I'm going to start this joke here. Unless you're dom 585 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:53,320 Speaker 6: enough to send messages to the people you're not supposed 586 00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:56,760 Speaker 6: to be sending, like, you know, toxic information to journalists. 587 00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:01,680 Speaker 4: If you're listening, Pete Heggsaft, we're talking about you. You 588 00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:03,640 Speaker 4: know what makes me mad about that is that that 589 00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:07,440 Speaker 4: was the probably for a lot of Americans, that was 590 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:10,080 Speaker 4: probably the first time they had ever heard about Signal, 591 00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:12,640 Speaker 4: and Signal is so awesome, it's so great, they have 592 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:16,880 Speaker 4: such a great like mission, and it made me sad 593 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:19,720 Speaker 4: that the first encounter that a lot of people were 594 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:25,040 Speaker 4: having was with Pete Hegsath like completely misusing it, and 595 00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:27,280 Speaker 4: even in some of the reporting about that, they were 596 00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:31,040 Speaker 4: sort of trying to make it signals like like oh like, 597 00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:34,360 Speaker 4: oh like what is this shadowy app that they were 598 00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:36,400 Speaker 4: using and how could this happen? And it's like, no, 599 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:38,520 Speaker 4: it signal didn't do anything wrong. 600 00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:41,240 Speaker 3: It was user error, right. 601 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:43,880 Speaker 5: Honestly, I was really shocked that they use such a 602 00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:45,840 Speaker 5: public like platform that is free. 603 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:47,040 Speaker 1: I'm like, you're the government. 604 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:52,280 Speaker 6: Don't you have your own kind of like chat application 605 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:55,160 Speaker 6: that you used within your own people, Like I don't this. 606 00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:58,160 Speaker 1: There's a lot I have questions about in this moment. 607 00:31:58,000 --> 00:31:59,320 Speaker 3: I can answer that question for you. 608 00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:02,960 Speaker 4: The answer is absolutely, the United States government has spends 609 00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:05,320 Speaker 4: lots and lots and lots of money to develop and 610 00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:10,440 Speaker 4: use super secure messaging apparatus. Yeah, single is not the 611 00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:12,920 Speaker 4: use case for this if you're if you're talking about 612 00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:17,520 Speaker 4: like secret military plans. I do love like I read 613 00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:19,800 Speaker 4: the different conversations that were happening. 614 00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:21,800 Speaker 3: I can't remember who it was. It might have been 615 00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:23,239 Speaker 3: jd Vance. Don't quote me on that. 616 00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:26,640 Speaker 4: Who is like only responding in thumbs up emojis? 617 00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:29,000 Speaker 3: It's one of. 618 00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:32,040 Speaker 4: Them that it's like just stick a thumbs up there 619 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:33,720 Speaker 4: and they'll they'll get the gist, Like I don't want 620 00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:37,600 Speaker 4: to be in print on this one, which looking back 621 00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:39,000 Speaker 4: was probably a smart idea. 622 00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:42,200 Speaker 5: Yeah, the little level of like comedy here is just 623 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:45,320 Speaker 5: like what is going on, but it feels right. 624 00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:47,600 Speaker 1: It feels about right, the disaster. 625 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:50,360 Speaker 5: And doom and like a comedic form like yeah, okay, 626 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:51,200 Speaker 5: that's where we are. 627 00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:54,160 Speaker 3: Sometimes you gotta laugh to keep from crying. Am I right? 628 00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:56,120 Speaker 1: It's true. 629 00:32:57,000 --> 00:32:59,360 Speaker 2: I have to admit to you all. I wrote in 630 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:02,640 Speaker 2: a fan for Lately I had a plot point about 631 00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:06,520 Speaker 2: this whole thing, because yes, because I was trying to 632 00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:10,280 Speaker 2: figure out how to make something that was incredibly stupid 633 00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:12,840 Speaker 2: happen in the government, and I was like, well, it 634 00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:16,760 Speaker 2: already happened, so I can point to real life evidence 635 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:18,080 Speaker 2: and be. 636 00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:18,800 Speaker 1: Like, you know what. 637 00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:22,120 Speaker 2: I would have thought it was too too stupid, but 638 00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:25,240 Speaker 2: it did happen. So I just wrote it in and 639 00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:27,240 Speaker 2: it kind of saved me a whole headache of figuring 640 00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:28,520 Speaker 2: out next. 641 00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:31,080 Speaker 6: I mean, it's true, like all of the things that 642 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:34,040 Speaker 6: they have predicted, this level of stupidity, it's no longer 643 00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:37,880 Speaker 6: funny because it's like right on, yeah, like this should. 644 00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:38,480 Speaker 1: Not be this real. 645 00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:42,120 Speaker 4: You know, stuff is bad when like if you were 646 00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:44,840 Speaker 4: writing a fictional work about it and you were be like, oh, 647 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:47,080 Speaker 4: that's too on the nose, nobody's going to buy that 648 00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:49,880 Speaker 4: it happened from. 649 00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:51,360 Speaker 1: The headlines, you're good. 650 00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:54,160 Speaker 3: Well. 651 00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:59,959 Speaker 2: You know one thing that has One of the reasons 652 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:03,520 Speaker 2: I really wanted to talk about this bridget is that 653 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:08,600 Speaker 2: I was so when I saw that commercial. 654 00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:10,080 Speaker 3: I was so. 655 00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:15,359 Speaker 2: Worried about people believing it, Like you know, like I 656 00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:19,120 Speaker 2: was really concerned that people would be like, oh, this 657 00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:23,480 Speaker 2: is a this is a secure interface that I can 658 00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:29,480 Speaker 2: use and getting in trouble or having this really terrible experience. 659 00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:34,560 Speaker 2: And I do know what you were talking about earlier 660 00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:36,319 Speaker 2: that a lot of people do have that sort of 661 00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:40,359 Speaker 2: burnout of like, you know what, they already know, they 662 00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:47,160 Speaker 2: already have it, what's even worth trying? But it really 663 00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:52,799 Speaker 2: it really worried me when I saw it, and I 664 00:34:52,800 --> 00:35:00,799 Speaker 2: think given the environment we live in now, that it 665 00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:03,480 Speaker 2: is something that we need to talk about and be 666 00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:04,920 Speaker 2: aware of and be educated on. 667 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:11,760 Speaker 4: Absolutely, I'm glad that you're bringing it to the Semintee 668 00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:15,200 Speaker 4: listeners because it is important and it can always be 669 00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:19,040 Speaker 4: really hard to tell marketing from reality, especially with this 670 00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:22,040 Speaker 4: because it is a little bit murky, But I guess 671 00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:25,759 Speaker 4: I would just offer, like, the reality is that we're 672 00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:27,879 Speaker 4: in a world where our rights are being rolled back, 673 00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:32,120 Speaker 4: where protest is criminalized, healthcare is criminalized. In a world 674 00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:36,640 Speaker 4: like that, privacy and security is not just a tech issue. 675 00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:38,440 Speaker 3: It is a survival issue, and we. 676 00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:41,919 Speaker 4: Have to protect our data and our conversations the way 677 00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:45,600 Speaker 4: that we also protect each other. I know that someone 678 00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:48,360 Speaker 4: listening out there is like, Bridget you sound paranoid. It 679 00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:51,239 Speaker 4: is not about being paranoid. It's about being prepared and 680 00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:54,560 Speaker 4: being cognizant of like the reality that we are in today. 681 00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:58,839 Speaker 4: And so if using signal over WhatsApp and getting into 682 00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:02,720 Speaker 4: the habit of doing that, if that could potentially save 683 00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:06,680 Speaker 4: somebody listening a whole lot of stress, I want to 684 00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:11,200 Speaker 4: offer that, like, there are small, meaningful changes that we 685 00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:14,359 Speaker 4: can make to keep things more secure and private that 686 00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:16,400 Speaker 4: don't cost us anything that we should be doing. And 687 00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:19,080 Speaker 4: I honestly think, like if you are someone who is 688 00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:21,560 Speaker 4: I don't even know how to put this, Like I 689 00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:25,200 Speaker 4: am like prepper minded a little bit right, Like I'm like, oh, 690 00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:27,040 Speaker 4: the vibes are bad, the vibes are weird. 691 00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:28,200 Speaker 3: Like, better get prepared. 692 00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:32,400 Speaker 4: I think right now the big thing we should be 693 00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:36,239 Speaker 4: preparing for is cyber security, and like like like. 694 00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:38,720 Speaker 3: I think that it's probably more likely that we are going. 695 00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:42,400 Speaker 4: To see digital attacks and cyber attacks, probably more so 696 00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:44,200 Speaker 4: than other kinds of things you could be prepping for. 697 00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:47,600 Speaker 4: And so preparing and getting yourself situated for those kinds 698 00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:49,440 Speaker 4: of attacks is easy and free. 699 00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:51,760 Speaker 3: It doesn't take a lot. And so I would say. 700 00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:55,239 Speaker 4: If you're feeling unnerved and uncertain in these times, start there, 701 00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:57,560 Speaker 4: like said, is something that you can manage. It does 702 00:36:57,600 --> 00:36:59,600 Speaker 4: not take a lot to get yourself in a good 703 00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:00,480 Speaker 4: protect place. 704 00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:04,160 Speaker 2: Yes, and you over on your podcast There Are No 705 00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:07,399 Speaker 2: Girls on the Internet and other episodes on spinty, You've 706 00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:09,440 Speaker 2: done a lot of a lot of episodes about that, 707 00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:11,960 Speaker 2: about how that can look and what you can do. 708 00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:16,520 Speaker 2: So thank you as always. 709 00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:18,640 Speaker 4: Oh my gosh, thanks for having me, my pleasure. And 710 00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:21,680 Speaker 4: if you want more conversations about tech and privacy, check 711 00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:25,399 Speaker 4: out the newest season of Mozilla's IRL podcast all about 712 00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:26,400 Speaker 4: those very topics. 713 00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:31,440 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, and thank you, We always love having you on. 714 00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:37,120 Speaker 2: Thank you for taking this topic. Suggestion but yes, where 715 00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:38,840 Speaker 2: can the good listeners find you? 716 00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:41,480 Speaker 4: You can find me at the IRL podcast, on my 717 00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:44,240 Speaker 4: podcast or No Girls on the Internet and on Instagram 718 00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:45,319 Speaker 4: at Bridget Marie DC. 719 00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:50,920 Speaker 2: Yes, well, looking forward to next time Bridget. In the meantime, 720 00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:52,719 Speaker 2: if you would like to contact those listeners, you can. 721 00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:54,759 Speaker 2: You can email us at hello at Stuffmomenever Told You? 722 00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:55,239 Speaker 3: Dot com. 723 00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:56,640 Speaker 2: You can find us on blue Sky, It moms to 724 00:37:56,719 --> 00:37:58,839 Speaker 2: podcast or on Instagram and TikTok at stuff I Never 725 00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:00,400 Speaker 2: Told You for us on YouTube band. We have a 726 00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:02,399 Speaker 2: book you can get wherever you get your books. Thanks 727 00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:05,160 Speaker 2: as always to our super bluster Christina, executive du My 728 00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:07,480 Speaker 2: and a contributor Joey. Thank you and thanks to you 729 00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:09,839 Speaker 2: for listening Stuff Never Told You propection by heart Radio. 730 00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:11,440 Speaker 2: For more podcasts from my heart Radio, you can check 731 00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:13,279 Speaker 2: out the heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or where you 732 00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:14,480 Speaker 2: listen to your favorite shows.