1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,720 Speaker 1: The H one B VISA program was designed to help 2 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:06,200 Speaker 1: American companies bring in foreign workers with special skills, but 3 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:08,960 Speaker 1: the program has come under criticism because it is increasingly 4 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:12,160 Speaker 1: dominated by outsourcing companies, many of them based in India 5 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:15,680 Speaker 1: and often bringing in low level workers. During his campaign, 6 00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:17,840 Speaker 1: Donald Trump vow to end the use of H one 7 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:21,360 Speaker 1: B visas as a quote cheap labor program. Now, his 8 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:24,320 Speaker 1: administration has taken several steps in conjunction with this week's 9 00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:28,760 Speaker 1: opening of the annual application process. They include increased inspections 10 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:32,199 Speaker 1: to combat what the administration calls fraud and abuse, and 11 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 1: the Justice Department issued a warning to US and to 12 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 1: employers telling them not to discriminate against U. S citizens. 13 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:41,479 Speaker 1: With us to talk about all this is Caitlin Webber. 14 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:44,400 Speaker 1: She's a government analyst for Bloomberg Intelligence. She's here with 15 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:48,280 Speaker 1: me in the studio in Washington. And Ron Hera, he's 16 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:53,040 Speaker 1: a professor at Howard University UM. Caitlin, UH, give us 17 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:55,600 Speaker 1: just a quick overview of this program. Who is being 18 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:58,560 Speaker 1: brought in under the program? Uh? And who is bringing 19 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:01,120 Speaker 1: them in? So? The H and BE Highly Skilled Visa 20 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:06,560 Speaker 1: program is really the US's flagship program for specialized workers. 21 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:10,960 Speaker 1: It's capped pretty circtly at eighty five thousand per year UM. 22 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 1: About half of those positions go to computer related positions 23 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:19,240 Speaker 1: computer programmer, systems, analists, engineers UM. I think when most 24 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:22,720 Speaker 1: most Americans think about this visa program, they probably first 25 00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:26,200 Speaker 1: associated with companies like Google, Apple, But in reality, it's 26 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 1: these UM, these companies that are much less familiar to 27 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:32,400 Speaker 1: Americans like White pro and and Tata consulting services that 28 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:35,319 Speaker 1: are taking up the bulk of these visas UM, at 29 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:37,560 Speaker 1: least for the last five years or so. And what's 30 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:42,040 Speaker 1: even more controversial is that UM for those India companies, 31 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:44,040 Speaker 1: you know, most of their employees in the US are 32 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:46,240 Speaker 1: on these visas, and the type of work that they're 33 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:49,920 Speaker 1: doing is they're going into banks and other large firms 34 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:53,280 Speaker 1: and essentially outsourcing I T departments to the h on 35 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:55,480 Speaker 1: the workers. And so that's really where a lot of 36 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 1: the controversy has focused in recent years. Run Do you 37 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 1: agree with those criticisms of the program. Does it seem 38 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:06,240 Speaker 1: to you that it's gotten off track and and been 39 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:12,799 Speaker 1: too heavily tilted towards towards those outsourcing programs or outsourcing companies. Well, 40 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:14,520 Speaker 1: I think it has gotten off track. I mean, the 41 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 1: intent of the program is a good one. The intent 42 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:20,239 Speaker 1: of the program is to bring in a guest worker, 43 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:22,960 Speaker 1: an H one B worker when you can't find an 44 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 1: American uh. And then to also bring in highly specialized workers. 45 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:31,280 Speaker 1: And so those are kind of two key elements here. First, 46 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 1: to highly specialized. In reality, the way it choose, you 47 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:36,560 Speaker 1: don't really have to be all that specialized to qualify 48 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 1: and be eligible for an H one B. Essentially what 49 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:42,600 Speaker 1: you need is a bachelor's degree UH, and there's lots 50 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:45,160 Speaker 1: of people with bachelor's degree, so that the hurdle isn't 51 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:48,040 Speaker 1: very high, the threshold and criteria is not very high. 52 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:50,720 Speaker 1: And then secondly, there's no requirement to actually look for 53 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:54,240 Speaker 1: American workers first. And then the third element here is 54 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:58,080 Speaker 1: that firms can legally pay way below market wages for 55 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:01,880 Speaker 1: these workers, and so there's a huge profit incentive and 56 00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:05,799 Speaker 1: it's extraordinarily profitable to bring in H one V worker 57 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 1: to substitute for a U S worker or even to 58 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:12,560 Speaker 1: replace the U S work. Caitlin, let's talk about what 59 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:15,600 Speaker 1: the administration is doing and start where wherever you want. 60 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:18,560 Speaker 1: What what do you see as as the most significant 61 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 1: step that they've taken in in the last few days. 62 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:24,639 Speaker 1: So I think the warning yesterday from the Justice Department 63 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:27,880 Speaker 1: that came to coincide with the opening of the lottery 64 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:33,280 Speaker 1: UM warning against companies discriminating against US workers was really 65 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:37,760 Speaker 1: a novel and interesting UM. It follows after UM the 66 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 1: Attorney General, Jeff Sessions and his confirmation hearing, is talking 67 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 1: about how he senses that there's fraud and a breason 68 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 1: this program, that he has a sense that large users 69 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:49,880 Speaker 1: of the program, including publicly traded companies, are using it 70 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 1: to offset U S workers UM. So I think that 71 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 1: the intent of that was to put companies on notice. 72 00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:57,200 Speaker 1: It comes at a time of I think a lot 73 00:03:57,240 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 1: of unease for for these companies, these that really rely 74 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:03,120 Speaker 1: on the visas. I think it's not as far as 75 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 1: they thought the administration would go. But I think the 76 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 1: timing of it of that UM, that warning, and then 77 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 1: also the the enhanced guidance that came out on Friday, 78 00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 1: also in the eve of the lottery that essentially requires 79 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:19,760 Speaker 1: companies to prove that their entry level programmers are indeed 80 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:23,480 Speaker 1: indeed have highly specialized skills. I think the timing of 81 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:27,200 Speaker 1: the release of of of those two actions is intended to, 82 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:29,920 Speaker 1: you know, to put companies and notice that they're going 83 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 1: to tighten the screws here, that they're really going to 84 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:34,919 Speaker 1: be paying much closer attention to these applications than maybe 85 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:38,040 Speaker 1: we've seen in past in past administrations around how much 86 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:40,800 Speaker 1: of an impact do you think that that warning And 87 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:44,720 Speaker 1: I guess it's just uh, just that a warning, uh, 88 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 1: not something not a legal action that's being taken against anybody. 89 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:50,160 Speaker 1: But how much of an impact do you see that 90 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:54,719 Speaker 1: as potentially having on on companies? Well, I think it 91 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 1: remains to be seen, and a lot of it has 92 00:04:56,440 --> 00:05:00,400 Speaker 1: to do with whether companies are complying with the laws 93 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 1: or not. Uh. If they're not, then that it could 94 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:07,279 Speaker 1: have a major impact on on those firms that aren't complying. 95 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 1: But for the firms that are complying, uh, this is fine. 96 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:12,560 Speaker 1: In fact, this is exactly what the tech industry has 97 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:16,040 Speaker 1: been asking for, which is stepped up enforcement. UM. And 98 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:19,000 Speaker 1: you know, in terms of the discrimination, I don't know 99 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:22,920 Speaker 1: what the legal uh you know, rules are and criteria 100 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:26,400 Speaker 1: for for discrimination, but if we just look just on 101 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:29,040 Speaker 1: the surface, some of these firms have tens of thousands 102 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:31,960 Speaker 1: of workers in the US UH and virtually all of 103 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:34,320 Speaker 1: their workers are on H one B s. So you 104 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:36,840 Speaker 1: imagine that this is these are firms that are very large. 105 00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:41,240 Speaker 1: You have thirty thousand workers here of them are H 106 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:44,280 Speaker 1: one B s. You have almost no U S workers, UH, 107 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:46,280 Speaker 1: and almost all of those H one B workers are 108 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:50,320 Speaker 1: from one country, from India. So it certainly looks like 109 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:56,279 Speaker 1: there's um patterns of preferential hiring going on within these firms. 110 00:05:56,320 --> 00:05:59,159 Speaker 1: And it's always struck me as being a bit odd 111 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:01,039 Speaker 1: that that they were able to to sort of meet 112 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:03,840 Speaker 1: all of the laws and rules and and and do 113 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:06,839 Speaker 1: that and behave that way. We will pick up with 114 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:10,200 Speaker 1: that thought in a moment. We're talking about the steps 115 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:13,880 Speaker 1: the Trump administration has taken UH involving the H one 116 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:18,080 Speaker 1: B VISA program, cracking down on firms that it sees 117 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:21,039 Speaker 1: as abusing that program, which is designed to bring in 118 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:24,359 Speaker 1: highly skilled foreign workers. Our guests are Ron Hera of 119 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:29,440 Speaker 1: Howard University and Bloomberg Intelligence intelligence analyst, Caitlin and Weber