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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. In the last hours, we

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Speaker 1: learned that very very unobtrusively, the body of a young

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Speaker 1: team Stephen Smith in South Carolina has been exhumed. What

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Speaker 1: does that mean? He's been dug up from the cemetery.

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Speaker 1: For lack of a better phrase to describe it, as

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Speaker 1: we all know, Stephen Smith, a young teen, openly gay

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Speaker 1: and a rural area in South Carolina. Body found by

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Speaker 1: a stranger a pastors by about three o'clock in the morning,

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Speaker 1: ish very dark road. There is no there are no

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Speaker 1: skid marks there. We find no abrasions on his body

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Speaker 1: to suggest he was hit and then dragged along the asphalt.

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Speaker 1: There is no sign of plastic, glass, metal, anything from

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Speaker 1: a car. This is a major major development. And joining

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Speaker 1: me right now, high profile lawyer out of Jacksonville, Dale Carson,

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Speaker 1: author of Arrest Proof Yourself, former FBI agent with the FEDS, Dale,

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Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. This is another thing

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Speaker 1: I've learned I want you to analyze. We learn that,

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Speaker 1: according to sources, two pois have been named and they

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Speaker 1: are not bust A Murdog. Now is there going to

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Speaker 1: be a Murdoi connection. Maybe, but tangentially and I'll get

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Speaker 1: to that these two individuals were teams selves at the time,

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Speaker 1: lived near Moselle. The hunting lodge's not far from Moselle,

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Speaker 1: about eight to eleven minutes on the road where Steven

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Speaker 1: Smith's body was found, which trigger all sorts of speculation

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Speaker 1: they also lived in there there. Now, this is what

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Speaker 1: we're learning, Dale Carson. According to sources, these two pois

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Speaker 1: teams themselves at the time, we're out late at night

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Speaker 1: and hit Stephen Smith, then tried to cover it up.

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Speaker 1: What do you make of what we're learning right now?

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Speaker 1: And how difficult is it to get an order of

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Speaker 1: exhimation and then actually autopsy an already embalmed body. Well,

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Speaker 1: of course, what we're looking for here is injuries consistent

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Speaker 1: with a hit run vehicular homicide. That's what we're looking

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Speaker 1: for because that's where everything was initially focused. And you're

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Speaker 1: looking for things that will be patently evident in the

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Speaker 1: egg zoomed autopsy. You're looking for spiral fractures below the knee.

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Speaker 1: You're looking for places most individuals who are walking in

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Speaker 1: the roadway and are struck by a vehicle. I've handled

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Speaker 1: a number of these cases as a cop in Miami,

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Speaker 1: you get fractures below the legs. In addition to that,

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Speaker 1: below the knee rather, and in addition to that, you're

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Speaker 1: going to have what I call a dirt dump. Now,

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Speaker 1: this is rural South Carolina, and a dirt dump is

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Speaker 1: where your car strikes something and when it does, all

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Speaker 1: the material that is up in the wheel weells and

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Speaker 1: on the frame dropped onto the ground. So typically at

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Speaker 1: the strike point, you're gonna find dirt. If you don't

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Speaker 1: find anything else, what do you mean dirt on a

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Speaker 1: paved road. Sure, sure, you're gonna find clumps of mud

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Speaker 1: that have become dislodged from the wheel wells. Remember this

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Speaker 1: is the rural South, but it's still it's still on

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Speaker 1: a paved road. That's all right. You're gonna find clumps

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Speaker 1: at the strike point. Now, if you don't find clumps

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Speaker 1: of dirt and debris at the strike point where the

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Speaker 1: bumper of the truck or car has hit the individual

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Speaker 1: fractured below the knee and the result is that strike

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Speaker 1: impacts the car when or truck when it impacts it,

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Speaker 1: you have massive amounts of dirt that come out of

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Speaker 1: the car. If you hit the brakes real hard on

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Speaker 1: your car You're gonna cause us. Say, when you drive

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Speaker 1: down the road and you hit a bump in the road,

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Speaker 1: and you see all the oil that's right there, that's

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Speaker 1: from the car hitting that bump, gravity pulling the oil

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Speaker 1: that's around the engine or other parts onto the ground.

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Speaker 1: So you see those spots. That's what I'm talking about.

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Speaker 1: And I'm letting all this think in. Look, I'm a

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Speaker 1: j D I'm not an auto mechanic, but I hear

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Speaker 1: what you're saying. It makes perfect sense to me. Keep going.

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Speaker 1: I want to hear every word. So you find these

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Speaker 1: spiral fractures, particularly where the individual is walking and the

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Speaker 1: direction of travel, and so if he's facing a car,

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Speaker 1: which typically I'm damn for Pete's sake, man, what if

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Speaker 1: you're facing a car and you're walking, you're walking down

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Speaker 1: the road you run out of gas, which, by the way,

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Speaker 1: brings up another interesting point. You run out of gas,

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Speaker 1: why would you take the gas calf off your tank

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Speaker 1: and look into it? Oh? Yes, yes, I mean I

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Speaker 1: want to tell you something else I learned. I can't

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Speaker 1: wait for you to hear this. So I've been doing

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Speaker 1: a little bit of digging, and apparently Steven Smith he

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Speaker 1: had a one night stand before the death, but not

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Speaker 1: in the hours leading up to the death. He also

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Speaker 1: had a boyfriend, and the boyfriend says that he contacted

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Speaker 1: Stephen Smith as late as three thirty seven am, and

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Speaker 1: that was less than half an hour before the body

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Speaker 1: is found. And he also says that Stephen Smith believed

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Speaker 1: someone was following him. Well, I look back in the

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Speaker 1: seventies in Miami, when I was a cop down there,

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Speaker 1: rolling individuals, rolling as in injuring drunks and gage was

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Speaker 1: the order of the day, says in the seventies, man,

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Speaker 1: I know. My point is that behavior still exists today.

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Speaker 1: It's really hard for me to embrace that because who

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Speaker 1: cares if you're gay or not. Gay? Is all I

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Speaker 1: could do to keep our car in the middle of

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Speaker 1: the road, in other words, to keep my family, to

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Speaker 1: keep the children in school, to keep up with their assignments,

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Speaker 1: the Scouts, this the work, the blah this. I can't

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Speaker 1: worry about what somebody else is doing. I don't have

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Speaker 1: the energy. I can't. It's very hard for me to

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Speaker 1: take in gay hatred. But I will tell you this, Um,

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Speaker 1: I don't know if I've told you this. Del Carson,

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Speaker 1: one of the first cases I worked trying to hold

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Speaker 1: it on a pill, which we did, by the way,

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Speaker 1: was one of the most vicious gay people. What holding

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Speaker 1: on a peal means holding me a pill? That means

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Speaker 1: thank you, you're right. You get a convictionate trial then,

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Speaker 1: like we see happening in murdog right now, the defendant

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Speaker 1: has nothing to do all day but sit in jail

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Speaker 1: and think, Wow, how can I get this thing reversed?

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Speaker 1: On a pill? They go to jail house lawyers and

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Speaker 1: Murlogh is a lawyer. He's gonna live in the law library.

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Speaker 1: He's gonna scheme and gnash his teeth and switch his

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Speaker 1: tail twenty four seven three sixty five trying to come

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Speaker 1: up with an appealable ground. So you know you're in

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Speaker 1: for it. When you get a homicide conviction, a murder conviction,

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Speaker 1: they will say anything, including turning on their own defense lawyers,

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Speaker 1: who probably did a pretty good job and claiming they're ineffective.

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Speaker 1: That always happens on appeal, and the defense lawyer typically

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Speaker 1: goes along with it, goes, yeah, I'm ineffective, I was

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Speaker 1: awful at trial to try to help the client. Of course,

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Speaker 1: the appellate courts know this and they're like, yeah, right,

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Speaker 1: you're infective. Long story short again, in that case, once

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Speaker 1: you get the conviction, you gotta hold it. You got

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Speaker 1: to hold it on appeal. That's what that means. And

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Speaker 1: you're right, I did need to explain that. You've got

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Speaker 1: to make sure that I have all the myriad of

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Speaker 1: counts the defense puts up as to why the case

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Speaker 1: should be reversed, all the imaginary slights and unconstitutional practices

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Speaker 1: in court. And then then this jerr fell asleep and

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Speaker 1: the judge did this, and they go on and on.

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Speaker 1: You got to hold it, and you got to be

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Speaker 1: ready to get questions by the appellate court. And this

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Speaker 1: was to the Georgia Supreme Court that I argued this case.

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Speaker 1: And I don't know if it's like this in your jurisdiction,

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Speaker 1: but here at the lect turn, you've got the whole

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Speaker 1: court in front of you. They're all looking at you

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Speaker 1: to do your argument. There is a green light, a

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Speaker 1: yellow light, and a red light on the lect turn.

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Speaker 1: Green means goat. Yellow means you're running out of time.

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Speaker 1: Red means if you don't sit down right now, we'll

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Speaker 1: have the bill remove you and you'll be kicked out

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Speaker 1: of the courtroom. Yes, just like a traffic light. So

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Speaker 1: that this case was about a series of young black

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Speaker 1: males that were ray a ray and then shot in

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Speaker 1: the head, almost always with thirty eight caliber in the

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Speaker 1: back of the head a little bit to the right side,

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Speaker 1: which means a right handed killer. Anyway, we got the

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Speaker 1: guy convicted, the guy and I was trying to hold

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Speaker 1: it on a pill. So yes, I have dealt with

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Speaker 1: horrible hatred toward gay men. And I had more after that,

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Speaker 1: but that was the first one. And it's really hard

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Speaker 1: for me to imagine this hatred, but it exists. So

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Speaker 1: you got to factor that in as well. Del Carson

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Speaker 1: about Stephen Smith was killed, Well, there's more. If you

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Speaker 1: go down a rural highway, you'll see what you and rural.

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Speaker 1: It's always rural with you. What do you have a

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Speaker 1: thinking about? Okay, our country. You're right down a country road.

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Speaker 1: You're gonna see mail boxes on the side of the road,

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Speaker 1: and some of them will be destroyed. Do you know

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Speaker 1: how that happens? I think you're about to sell me. Okay,

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Speaker 1: you ride down the road in your truck and you

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Speaker 1: have a baseball bat, which these boys were in baseball

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Speaker 1: teams right, and you reach out of the window. The

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Speaker 1: passenger does typically and strikes the mailbox to great amazement.

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Speaker 1: The thing gets destroyed, and the boys cheer. All right,

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Speaker 1: so you obviously they don't have enough to do well.

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Speaker 1: Obviously they're destructive and they like to do those kind

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Speaker 1: of things. So you'll see big concrete mailboxes which cannot

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Speaker 1: be destroyed in that fashion. The point is, we're gonna

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Speaker 1: see whether that blunt force trauma came from a car

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Speaker 1: where it fractured, caused abrasions to the skin and things

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Speaker 1: in primary and secondary exploits. In fair for you? Are

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Speaker 1: you continue to tell me about assaulting mailboxes? All right, folks?

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Speaker 1: So if those other factors don't exist in the post

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Speaker 1: mortem and there aren't fractured legs, then what about riding

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Speaker 1: down the road seeing the guy you come around back,

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Speaker 1: you don't like him, and you take one of those

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Speaker 1: bats and you hit him with it, and it of

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Speaker 1: course guilty. That's a really good point. Time stories with

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Speaker 1: Nancy Grace can't tell you what else I've learned, okay,

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Speaker 1: according Okay, now I know the two names of the

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Speaker 1: pois persons of interest, but I'm gonna call him number

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Speaker 1: one and number two. Okay, number one and number two.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna let number one be the non driver and

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Speaker 1: number two be the driver. Number two is the driver. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so this is what we understand. One of the two

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Speaker 1: came over to the tipster, an anonymous tipster who I

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Speaker 1: think I may know who it is, but anyway, the

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Speaker 1: anonymous tipster says, one of the two POI's persons of

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Speaker 1: interest come over to tipster's house and told tipster that

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Speaker 1: number two, the driver was drunk and hit something that

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Speaker 1: he went back the next day to see what he

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Speaker 1: had hit, which is a live course, see what he hit.

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Speaker 1: The next day, it saw a lot of police out there.

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Speaker 1: Then he learned by media that someone had been killed

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Speaker 1: and that's why police were there. The tipster said, person one,

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Speaker 1: not the driver, was visibly distraught, crying, and when he

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Speaker 1: got through telling a story, walked outside of the house

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Speaker 1: and threw up two. The driver may have tried to

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Speaker 1: cover up evidence, having his mirror fixed on his vehicle

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Speaker 1: patched up one of the mirrors on his truck. There

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Speaker 1: were rumors and there is somewhat of a Murdi connection,

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Speaker 1: only allegedly that Randy Murdog got another witness to call

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Speaker 1: cops and ride out number two the driver. Now my

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Speaker 1: question to you is all this happened back in twenty fifteen.

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Speaker 1: You've got a tempster telling an agent PI one came

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Speaker 1: over rated out POI two personal mitches two. PI one

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Speaker 1: was so upset about it he threw up just describing

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Speaker 1: what happened? What in the hay has been going on

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Speaker 1: since two thousand and fifteen? Dale Carson, Well, I look,

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Speaker 1: that's fairly straightforward, at least for me. If only a

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Speaker 1: truck mirror, one of those extended mirrors on the side

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Speaker 1: of your truck hits somebody, if that happened, there might

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Speaker 1: not be leg fractures. Okay, And that's a really good explanation.

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Speaker 1: Why was actually struck with a bad I got something

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Speaker 1: else for you before I forget it, because you know

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Speaker 1: up here my head, I'll go to the next thing.

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Speaker 1: I gotta tell you one more thing. Throw this into

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Speaker 1: your analysis, Dell Carson, How do I say this? Okay?

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Speaker 1: Have you ever seen aristocrats? Wait? No? Wait? Or is

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Speaker 1: it a one hundred mille dalmations? Okay? There are two

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Speaker 1: hound dogs Sydney. Could you please look this up? They're

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Speaker 1: two hound dogs and one is Napoleon and he's in charge,

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Speaker 1: much like Barney five. And in the distance he hears

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Speaker 1: a car. Wait, yeah, see here's a car and it's

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Speaker 1: egg Berton the butler. Oh so that means it's aristocrat

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Speaker 1: oristcats and eggbert the Butler is riding a motorcycle with

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Speaker 1: sidecar and at a distance, Napoleon Wasn't the dog's named Napoleon? Okay,

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Speaker 1: who's the other dog? I just want to know how

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Speaker 1: to curiosity? Please look it up? Anyway, Wait a minute,

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Speaker 1: So I'm going somewhere with this. Wait. Wait, Napoleon has

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Speaker 1: up his ears straight up. He goes, uh huh, it's

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Speaker 1: a motorcycle, it's got a sidecar, blah blah. And he

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Speaker 1: could hear what the vehicle is a mile away and

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Speaker 1: identify it, do you know, Like, for instance, my husband

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Speaker 1: is always late to supper and the three of us

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Speaker 1: are sitting there and what we do is we lay

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Speaker 1: our heads down on the table and act like we're asleep,

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Speaker 1: and we're all going. But this is how we know

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Speaker 1: when to start fake snoring, because we can tell the

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Speaker 1: way he opens the door that it's him. We can

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Speaker 1: hear his car, we can recognize his vehicle, and we

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Speaker 1: know how he opens the door unlike anybody else, and

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Speaker 1: then we immediately fake sleep. What I'm saying is, there's

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Speaker 1: a witness in this case. It's the then boyfriend who

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Speaker 1: is communicating back and forth with Stephen Smith that night,

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Speaker 1: less than half an hour before Smith is killed. And

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Speaker 1: he says he hears quote big mud tires. Now, if

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Speaker 1: I hear one tire versus another tire, I don't know

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Speaker 1: that I could tell a difference, But it can be done,

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Speaker 1: Dal Carson, it can be done absolutely. And the rural south,

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Speaker 1: well that was the dog's name. Okay, go ahead. So

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Speaker 1: in my area of the city in Florida, you don't

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Speaker 1: hear off the road tires very much, but in the

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Speaker 1: country areas you do. And certainly you could know a

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Speaker 1: muffler sound from a car. You can certainly hear from

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Speaker 1: the tires, and it makes a tremendous racket. So they're

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Speaker 1: elevated cars, trucks weather. So if they're elevated, well, the

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Speaker 1: mirror on a car wouldn't just hit somebody in the

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Speaker 1: back of the head or the front of the head,

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Speaker 1: which is where the strike was on Smith. So the

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Speaker 1: entire matter seems to be contrived. It's contrived. So if

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Speaker 1: you had to make an explanation for somebody who was

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Speaker 1: actually struck with a bat by ne'er do wells riding

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Speaker 1: around Sound in a car and finding a gay guy

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Speaker 1: walking alone in the middle of a road, and you

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Speaker 1: know this individual and you turn around and you want

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Speaker 1: to scare him, but you accidentally intentionally kill him. If that,

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Speaker 1: in fact would happen, then your circumstance with knowing the truck,

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Speaker 1: you would turn and look at it. Time stories with

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Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. You know, I got a question for you.

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Speaker 1: What are you so hell bent on them using a bat?

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Speaker 1: I mean, I've just told you that according to this tipster,

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Speaker 1: And granted that's not a completely credible source, but it's

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Speaker 1: a tipster who's got facts that suggest Stephen Smith was

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Speaker 1: hit by a truck by the side mirror, which then

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Speaker 1: had to be fixed. I eat taped up. What is

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Speaker 1: it with you in the bat? What I'm what I'm

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Speaker 1: suggesting to you is there's a difference for me to

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Speaker 1: just walk down the cricket path of Dale Carson land

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Speaker 1: Well and it may figure out you've hit now so far,

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Speaker 1: you've hit a couple of mailboxes with a bat. Now

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Speaker 1: you've got back to the seventies where people here gay

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Speaker 1: people with a bat. Can. We deal with the facts

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Speaker 1: as we know them in this case, well as you

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Speaker 1: may believe them to be. But if a mirror strikes

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Speaker 1: an individual, one of those mirrors is going to leave

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Speaker 1: glass at the strike point, and we didn't find any glass.

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Speaker 1: You're right saying, you're right that the entire process is

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Speaker 1: contrived by a family and charge of what really happened.

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Speaker 1: And when you contrive something, you've got to make a

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Speaker 1: reason for it, and that reason's got to be consistent

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Speaker 1: with the apparent facts. So you have one which is

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Speaker 1: an hit and run, it's an ACTIVI it horrible, it

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Speaker 1: happens with people who are drinking and driving, and it's wrong.

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Speaker 1: But another thing's altogether there. If there's a relationship that

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Speaker 1: somebody doesn't want revealed, and you have an opportunity to

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Speaker 1: get rid of that problem, and you do so as

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Speaker 1: consistent with the behaviors of certain well known families in

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Speaker 1: that area, you've got to contrive it. So the first

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Speaker 1: thing you got to do is called victim's mother and say, look,

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Speaker 1: I'll represent you for free, not for a fee. But

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Speaker 1: for free. Why would they do that? Well, hold on

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Speaker 1: just a moment, I'm going to go into your conspiracy

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Speaker 1: theory riddled mind for just one moment. Hold on, wait

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Speaker 1: a minute, I'm going with you on this, just a moment,

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Speaker 1: Del Carson. Let me get my thought, Let me marshal

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Speaker 1: my thoughts. Because according to the father, a POI person

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Speaker 1: of it, just number one, the stepfather, a person of

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Speaker 1: interest Number one, not the driver. Number one, tells stepfather

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Speaker 1: what happened that Number two hit Stephen Smith and killed him.

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Speaker 1: The father, the stepfather of number one, says that Randy

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Speaker 1: Murdog got him, the stepfather, to tell the story to cops.

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Speaker 1: What is Randy Murdock doing up in the middle of this?

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Speaker 1: If in fact this is true, we don't know it's true.

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Speaker 1: I mean, and number two, the driver apparently has a

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Speaker 1: history of d y, domestic violence, a pot pourri of offenses.

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Speaker 1: He just smells, you know, just because it's got a

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Speaker 1: whole as I said, trash bag full of offenses, none

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Speaker 1: of them rising to a felony that I know of.

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Speaker 1: But he's just he's just a cesspool brewing with all

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Speaker 1: his offenses and that boom. Now we've got this. So

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Speaker 1: how does Brandy Murdoch get injected into this? Well, you know,

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Speaker 1: in two individuals who don't want the truth of a

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Speaker 1: matter known often do things to prevent that truth from

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Speaker 1: being revealed. I mean that's just human nature. Wait, are

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Speaker 1: you one of those people that think LBJ murder JFK?

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Speaker 1: Did he? Oh? Okay, thank goodness, you're not into that one.

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Speaker 1: But you're definitely seeing a conspiracy here, and you're roping

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Speaker 1: in the murdogs that they are pointing to number one

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Speaker 1: and number two. But it's really them, is that what

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Speaker 1: you're saying, Well, it's somebody else. Whether it is an

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Speaker 1: actual murdog is another matter altogether, But clearly the exhumation

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Speaker 1: is going to provide some evidence as to what happened.

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Speaker 1: And I've seen a number of hit and run traffic

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Speaker 1: fatalities and I have never seen somebody hit by just

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Speaker 1: a mirror. I mean, that's unusual. Well, I want to

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Speaker 1: follow up on that because I think you're right apparently,

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Speaker 1: and we're going to find out from the independent autopsy.

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Speaker 1: Stephen Smith had bruising to one side of his body,

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Speaker 1: but the fatal the cause of the death cod was

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Speaker 1: a blood of the head of some sort. Well, it

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Speaker 1: was originally thought it was a gunshot, that's right, and

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Speaker 1: so you've got to look at the photographs. You've got

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Speaker 1: to look at the actual fracture. You know, there's a

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Speaker 1: difference between a high speed fracture and a low speed fracture.

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Speaker 1: It's called Britton's and it's that is a term that's

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Speaker 1: used with the military to describe the ability of a

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Speaker 1: an explosive to move things. And they're different speeded. So

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Speaker 1: if the truck was going five miles an hour versus

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Speaker 1: fifty miles an hour, or a bat was traveling at

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Speaker 1: sixty miles an hour, there's a difference. And you can

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Speaker 1: tell whether the back of a mirror hit his forehead

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Speaker 1: or whether it was something else. I mean, I just

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Speaker 1: see him walking on the road. A truck passes him,

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Speaker 1: and this is information that's available in some of the

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Speaker 1: information I've read in the media. Somebody sees him, they

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Speaker 1: dislike him, They turned the truck around. He thinks that

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Speaker 1: somebody that knows hims is going to rescue him from

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Speaker 1: his car is out of gas. They come by quickly

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Speaker 1: and they intentionally injure him. Right now, we've got a

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Speaker 1: lot of facts brewing Let's see what happens when more

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Speaker 1: of the facts are formally released. We wait as justice

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Speaker 1: of holes. Thanks Dale Carson, goodbye friendsh