WEBVTT - ¿Ahora Que?: What's Next for Donziger, Chevron and Ecuador 0:00:04.360 --> 0:00:08.959 Hello, Hi, Karen, It's me Amy. 0:00:09.080 --> 0:00:11.639 How are you since I've helped you? 0:00:11.920 --> 0:00:14.440 I know, I know, well, I feel like it. I 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:14.880 mean it. 0:00:14.880 --> 0:00:16.880 It's maybe been like a couple of weeks, but it 0:00:16.960 --> 0:00:18.160 feels like two years. 0:00:19.360 --> 0:00:21.480 Yeah, long, because we used to talk about. 0:00:23.000 --> 0:00:25.360 You might have heard me mention my co reporter on 0:00:25.440 --> 0:00:28.920 this season, Karen Savage in the credits of every episode, 0:00:29.320 --> 0:00:31.480 and you've heard her voice a couple of times too, 0:00:31.800 --> 0:00:34.479 But she's been a really big part of this season 0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:38.480 behind the scenes and especially on our website, where Karen 0:00:38.600 --> 0:00:42.400 has been writing stories that go along with each episode. 0:00:42.560 --> 0:00:45.080 She's also the person I've called all season long to 0:00:45.120 --> 0:00:48.800 help make sense of this story or to help remember 0:00:48.840 --> 0:00:51.400 where this or that document is or who said what 0:00:51.560 --> 0:00:53.440 and when. So I wanted to bring her in for 0:00:53.520 --> 0:00:55.960 this last episode, where we're going to try to make 0:00:56.000 --> 0:00:59.040 sense of this story as a whole and what it 0:00:59.080 --> 0:01:03.480 means in the con text of climate Today, we're going 0:01:03.520 --> 0:01:06.720 to update you on what's happening for the Ecuadorians and 0:01:06.959 --> 0:01:10.120 dig into why we decided to tackle this story in 0:01:10.160 --> 0:01:13.000 the first place, plus what we learned from it and 0:01:13.040 --> 0:01:15.640 what it has to do with climate change. 0:01:16.280 --> 0:01:17.160 That's all coming. 0:01:17.000 --> 0:01:34.880 Up right after this quick break. Like most people, Pod 0:01:34.959 --> 0:01:38.200 Save America co host Tommy Vitor thought foreign policy was 0:01:38.240 --> 0:01:41.120 boring and complicated until he got the education of a 0:01:41.160 --> 0:01:45.319 lifetime working for President Obama's National Security Council. It was 0:01:45.319 --> 0:01:48.240 a crash course that taught him two things. Anyone can 0:01:48.320 --> 0:01:51.720 understand these issues, and we all have an obligation to try. 0:01:52.040 --> 0:01:55.040 That's why he started Podsave the World, a weekly podcast 0:01:55.080 --> 0:01:57.920 from Crooked Media that breaks down international news and foreign 0:01:57.960 --> 0:02:01.760 policy developments but doesn't feel like homework. Each week, he 0:02:01.960 --> 0:02:05.720 and former Deputy National Security Advisor and co host Ben 0:02:05.800 --> 0:02:08.520 Rhodes walk you through the latest developments with a variety 0:02:08.560 --> 0:02:12.680 of experts. Count on hearing behind the scenes stories, funny anecdotes, 0:02:12.800 --> 0:02:15.000 and maybe even a few f bombs along the way. 0:02:15.160 --> 0:02:17.920 New episodes of pod Say the World drop every Wednesday. 0:02:18.160 --> 0:02:21.519 Subscribe now on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or wherever you get 0:02:21.600 --> 0:02:30.960 your podcasts. My sort of general sense of this story 0:02:31.120 --> 0:02:34.000 is just that the Ecuadorians have kind of been fucked 0:02:34.000 --> 0:02:37.040 over by everyone, and I just keep coming back to 0:02:37.080 --> 0:02:39.520 this thing that Joe Berlinger said, which is, if this 0:02:39.800 --> 0:02:44.640 contamination had happened somewhere in the world where you know, wealthy, 0:02:44.680 --> 0:02:47.000 white people live, it would have just been cleaned up 0:02:47.120 --> 0:02:48.800 first and then litigated later. 0:02:49.040 --> 0:02:55.520 If this incident had happened anywhere where white people live, 0:02:56.040 --> 0:02:57.960 it would have been cleaned up, you know, and then 0:02:58.000 --> 0:03:14.639 they would have figured out the culpability later, right, right. 0:03:14.440 --> 0:03:16.360 And like I just yet, I do feel like it's 0:03:16.400 --> 0:03:21.320 become all about legal procedure and not a wrong. 0:03:21.240 --> 0:03:24.919 Was done and should be addressed the. 0:03:25.040 --> 0:03:28.639 End, right right, because at this point it doesn't seem 0:03:28.680 --> 0:03:31.839 like that's even being addressed or even thought of in 0:03:31.880 --> 0:03:35.040 any of these, like all of these cor proceedings. And 0:03:35.320 --> 0:03:37.840 you know it would be I definitely couldn't do it myself. 0:03:37.880 --> 0:03:41.040 But like, how many of these court filings even mentioned 0:03:41.040 --> 0:03:44.800 the Equadorians or the mess that they're still dealing with, right, 0:03:44.880 --> 0:03:47.560 I mean there are literally hundreds of thousands, if not more, 0:03:48.320 --> 0:03:51.600 legal filings, and how many of them actually even mentioned 0:03:51.640 --> 0:03:52.480 the Equadorians. 0:03:53.000 --> 0:03:55.200 That's true, Yeah, that's true. 0:03:55.240 --> 0:03:58.320 That and it does it just like I think there's 0:03:58.400 --> 0:04:03.160 been this very asserted and successful strategy to make it 0:04:03.200 --> 0:04:08.400 all about the lawyers and not the people. Pablo Fajardo 0:04:08.480 --> 0:04:10.880 actually said when we talked to him too, that like 0:04:10.920 --> 0:04:12.680 this is about the people, not the lawyers. 0:04:14.880 --> 0:04:26.760 Can in whoish you in noise om pros Asum Processa Pueblos. 0:04:27.480 --> 0:04:31.400 And I understand his frustration and like the Ecuadorians frustration, 0:04:32.000 --> 0:04:33.919 But then I also grapple with like, well, how do 0:04:33.960 --> 0:04:36.239 you cover it without mentioning that stuff? 0:04:36.400 --> 0:04:39.280 Yeah, I mean I think that's actually the biggest challenge 0:04:39.400 --> 0:04:41.560 to me. And well, no, it's not the biggest challenge 0:04:41.560 --> 0:04:43.280 because understanding all the legal stuff. 0:04:43.000 --> 0:04:44.080 Has been the biggest challenge. 0:04:44.080 --> 0:04:47.120 But one of the biggest challenges has been doing this 0:04:47.279 --> 0:04:50.880 story without having gone there. I keep saying that, but 0:04:51.560 --> 0:04:55.480 you know, I have never written before about any kind 0:04:55.560 --> 0:05:00.400 of toxic contamination or allegations of contamination without going there 0:05:00.440 --> 0:05:02.040 and seeing it, do you. 0:05:01.920 --> 0:05:02.360 Know what I mean? 0:05:02.480 --> 0:05:04.640 Or experience like climate change, We all experience it, even 0:05:04.640 --> 0:05:07.040 though we're not like right there at the refinery sense line, 0:05:07.480 --> 0:05:12.000 but you know, having not talked to these people and 0:05:12.080 --> 0:05:14.640 their homes, you know, or sat down and had coffee 0:05:14.720 --> 0:05:17.240 or whatever, you know, Yeah, all of those things that 0:05:17.440 --> 0:05:19.760 you can just kind of get to know folks and 0:05:20.080 --> 0:05:22.960 get to know how their lives have been affected. 0:05:23.160 --> 0:05:25.960 Yeah, I think is huge. Yeah. 0:05:26.320 --> 0:05:31.200 Yeah, So yeah, we did not get to go to 0:05:31.480 --> 0:05:35.039 Ecuador for this season, which was not the plan. We 0:05:35.160 --> 0:05:37.360 kept thinking we'd be able to go in a couple months, 0:05:37.400 --> 0:05:40.840 but obviously that never happened. The other thing that did 0:05:40.880 --> 0:05:44.920 not go as planned this season was the schedule. We 0:05:44.920 --> 0:05:47.200 were going to launch in June, and then it was 0:05:47.320 --> 0:05:50.640 July for sure. We ended up finally launching at the 0:05:50.760 --> 0:05:54.240 end of September because there was just so much reporting 0:05:54.279 --> 0:05:56.760 to do and documents to read and people to track 0:05:56.839 --> 0:06:02.200 down and just thinking too. This story is a really 0:06:02.240 --> 0:06:04.799 weird one because on the one hand, it's so simple. 0:06:05.279 --> 0:06:09.479 Toxic waste was dumped in the Amazon rainforest. Whoever's responsible 0:06:09.520 --> 0:06:12.080 for that should clean it up. But the legal system 0:06:12.160 --> 0:06:17.360 can make that whoever's responsible part really tricky. And then 0:06:17.440 --> 0:06:20.240 you had this whole complicated thing happening where a US 0:06:20.400 --> 0:06:24.000 judge was evaluating the decision of an Ecuadorian judge. And 0:06:24.120 --> 0:06:28.160 then there's the whole Petro Ecuador thing. How responsible are 0:06:28.200 --> 0:06:31.480 they or the Equadorian government which let these oil guys 0:06:31.520 --> 0:06:34.920 in in the first place. And that's why we couldn't 0:06:34.960 --> 0:06:37.359 just talk about this case with Chevron. We had to 0:06:37.400 --> 0:06:43.039 start by talking about colonialism. 0:06:43.120 --> 0:06:45.919 And it's totally as we've talked about before, like a 0:06:46.600 --> 0:06:49.320 story about colonialization, right you know. 0:06:49.560 --> 0:06:54.400 There's yes, the Equadorian government was complicit in that initially, right, 0:06:54.600 --> 0:06:59.240 But even in that situation, you know what choices did 0:06:59.240 --> 0:07:04.280 they have really between playing ball with oil companies in 0:07:04.400 --> 0:07:08.680 order to develop their economy in this world that was 0:07:08.720 --> 0:07:09.760 dictating like. 0:07:09.800 --> 0:07:11.880 You either do this or you starve. 0:07:13.120 --> 0:07:16.520 Right, right, because that at the very heart of this 0:07:16.920 --> 0:07:21.320 is the inequity that was set up so long ago, right, 0:07:21.440 --> 0:07:25.320 that like leaves people fighting over crumbs, and sometimes. 0:07:24.840 --> 0:07:26.880 We're really bad crumbs. Yeah, you know in this. 0:07:26.880 --> 0:07:30.120 Case, yeah, I mean, And honestly, what all of these 0:07:30.640 --> 0:07:35.000 court cases are doing is just muddying everything up, right. 0:07:35.040 --> 0:07:37.800 It kind of seems like everyone involved is just throwing 0:07:37.840 --> 0:07:42.800 stuff out there to get themselves unstuck. But over on 0:07:42.840 --> 0:07:45.600 the other side, the Ecuadorians are still there, still suffering, 0:07:46.040 --> 0:07:48.440 still living in a contaminating environment. 0:08:00.520 --> 0:08:02.880 One thing to keep in mind is that the Ecuadorians 0:08:02.920 --> 0:08:06.960 are absolutely not sitting around and waiting for someone to 0:08:07.040 --> 0:08:10.160 save them. They're doing everything they possibly can to try 0:08:10.200 --> 0:08:13.960 to improve their situation on the ground. Judith Kimmerling, the 0:08:14.040 --> 0:08:16.720 lawyer who went down to Ecuador in the nineteen eighties 0:08:16.800 --> 0:08:19.240 and wrote about it, really kind of kicking off a 0:08:19.240 --> 0:08:21.520 lot of the legal action that happened in the later 0:08:21.640 --> 0:08:22.880 decades said this. 0:08:23.040 --> 0:08:27.040 For example, this lawsuit was a relatively small group of 0:08:27.080 --> 0:08:31.800 people trying to accomplish something for a huge area, in many, 0:08:31.840 --> 0:08:35.400 many people. And in that area, you know, what's overlooked 0:08:35.480 --> 0:08:37.640 is that there are a lot of people who haven't 0:08:37.640 --> 0:08:40.400 been engaged in the lawsuit, but they've been engaged in 0:08:40.440 --> 0:08:44.600 their own processes, in their own dynamics, in their own 0:08:44.720 --> 0:08:51.280 efforts to survive the impacts caused by Texaco and you know, 0:08:51.760 --> 0:08:55.440 secure a future for themselves and their children. And the 0:08:55.480 --> 0:08:58.000 by raity are one of them. And so to present 0:08:58.080 --> 0:09:01.400 their story in that way as okay, So in the 0:09:01.440 --> 0:09:04.160 tort law, in human rights law, we call them victims, 0:09:04.160 --> 0:09:07.679 but really their survivors. They have their own aspirations, they 0:09:07.679 --> 0:09:10.800 have their own processes, they have their own efforts, their 0:09:10.840 --> 0:09:11.679 own struggle. 0:09:12.200 --> 0:09:12.400 You know. 0:09:12.400 --> 0:09:14.320 In Spanish se Luca. 0:09:14.360 --> 0:09:18.120 There's an extremely cool project using mushrooms to absorb the 0:09:18.120 --> 0:09:21.160 petroleum and toxic waste in the oil pits. For example, 0:09:21.600 --> 0:09:28.640 it's called Sukumbio's Alliance of Bioremediation and Sustainability ABSs. Fung 0:09:28.679 --> 0:09:31.319 Guy it turns out, are probably our best weapon when 0:09:31.320 --> 0:09:34.680 it comes to remediating all sorts of toxic waste sites. 0:09:34.920 --> 0:09:38.200 There are mushrooms that gobble up everything from the hydrocarbons 0:09:38.240 --> 0:09:43.480 and petroleum to heavy metal and even plastic. So there's 0:09:43.520 --> 0:09:46.880 the Mushroom Project in Ecuador. There's a mutual aid group 0:09:46.920 --> 0:09:50.560 that looks after the area's many cancer patients. This is 0:09:50.679 --> 0:09:54.000 a community that looks after its own and knows how 0:09:54.000 --> 0:09:57.600 to survive. The core system is not their only tool, 0:09:57.800 --> 0:10:00.680 but there are more cases too. Pablo Ardo, the lead 0:10:00.679 --> 0:10:04.960 attorney against Chevron in Ecuador, has also sued Petro Ecuador 0:10:05.120 --> 0:10:07.480 to encourage it to clean up its share of the 0:10:07.520 --> 0:10:13.240 pollution in the Amazon. Fajardo's organization you adapt UDAPT is 0:10:13.320 --> 0:10:17.320 also encouraging the government to appeal the arbitration decision that 0:10:17.400 --> 0:10:20.600 came down in favor of Chevron. You might remember us 0:10:20.640 --> 0:10:25.080 talking about that this season that an arbitral tribunal in 0:10:25.160 --> 0:10:30.800 the Netherlands ruled that the Ecuadorian government owed Chevron millions 0:10:30.800 --> 0:10:35.000 of dollars for allowing this case to proceed in its courts. 0:10:35.720 --> 0:10:39.440 Documentary filmmaker Lindsay Afrias, who we also talked to during 0:10:39.440 --> 0:10:43.280 the season, talked about what the Ecuadorians are continuing to do, 0:10:43.600 --> 0:10:47.160 and why their work on the ground always seems to 0:10:47.200 --> 0:10:50.480 be ignored in press reports about this case. 0:10:50.920 --> 0:10:54.840 And that's the thing it's really passating to, however, the 0:10:54.840 --> 0:10:58.880 way in which fingers get pointed, where Chevron will be like, oh, no, 0:10:58.920 --> 0:11:02.080 it's Petro Ecuador, and petrorectord Or will say no, it's Chevron, 0:11:02.480 --> 0:11:04.640 And there is a world in which we can see 0:11:04.640 --> 0:11:12.040 them all responsible but in different ways. And ironically, you know, 0:11:12.080 --> 0:11:15.120 the people who are who are taking the most responsibility 0:11:15.200 --> 0:11:18.320 or the people who are actually least responsible for having 0:11:18.360 --> 0:11:21.920 caused this situation. And so I was able to spend 0:11:21.960 --> 0:11:27.000 significant time with you know, the plaintiffs who have turned 0:11:27.040 --> 0:11:32.080 into I would call like emergency responders, where they've created 0:11:32.120 --> 0:11:36.360 their own health committees, their own environmental cleanup committees. 0:11:36.320 --> 0:11:39.960 And they're doing unbelievable work. 0:11:39.720 --> 0:11:45.479 That gets no attention. And I often find it difficult 0:11:45.520 --> 0:11:50.400 to even think outside of the law and imagine, you know, 0:11:50.800 --> 0:11:55.120 with them, what is possible to do in the face 0:11:55.160 --> 0:11:58.240 of corporate and state impunity. And you know, while it 0:11:58.320 --> 0:12:02.480 is a worthy endeavor to continue fighting through the legal system, 0:12:02.960 --> 0:12:07.760 how can we still direct resources to the people who 0:12:07.760 --> 0:12:12.800 are most affected, who are building responses and they have 0:12:13.000 --> 0:12:16.679 really brilliant ideas, and they have very brilliant structures already 0:12:16.720 --> 0:12:19.000 in place in which they're working, and they could be 0:12:19.000 --> 0:12:22.959 even more effective if you know, everybody else somehow paid 0:12:23.040 --> 0:12:23.960 them some respect. 0:12:28.920 --> 0:12:31.400 This is a really key point and reminds me a 0:12:31.440 --> 0:12:34.680 lot of how we think and talk about climate change, 0:12:35.080 --> 0:12:38.280 as though climate action can only happen through these very 0:12:38.320 --> 0:12:42.720 specific systems that are mostly controlled by powerful interests. A 0:12:42.760 --> 0:12:44.600 couple people have told me that while they find the 0:12:44.640 --> 0:12:48.680 story of this Chevron Ecuador case interesting, they're not really 0:12:48.720 --> 0:12:51.960 sure what it has to do with climate change. Sure, 0:12:52.080 --> 0:12:55.080 Chevron is an oil company, but this story isn't really 0:12:55.120 --> 0:12:58.840 about climate change, right. Here's how I think it connects. 0:12:59.280 --> 0:13:02.679 This is a story about power and accountability, which is 0:13:02.760 --> 0:13:05.920 really at the root of every climate story. I always 0:13:05.920 --> 0:13:08.560 say climate change is a power problem, and I don't 0:13:08.600 --> 0:13:12.120 mean energy sources. You don't get a problem like catastrophic 0:13:12.160 --> 0:13:15.560 climate change where a small handful of people have shifted 0:13:15.559 --> 0:13:18.600 the world away from acting on the problem just to 0:13:18.600 --> 0:13:23.600 benefit themselves without some sort of major power imbalances. A 0:13:23.640 --> 0:13:25.480 lot of people who think we need to act on 0:13:25.559 --> 0:13:28.880 climate also think that oil companies can and should be 0:13:28.960 --> 0:13:31.920 part of that action. That it will negotiate and act 0:13:32.000 --> 0:13:34.520 in good faith on climate. When I look at this case, 0:13:34.640 --> 0:13:37.600 I don't see how that could possibly hold true. I 0:13:37.679 --> 0:13:41.000 kind of started this season thinking this, and it definitely 0:13:41.520 --> 0:13:43.520 turned out this way that it is such a good 0:13:43.559 --> 0:13:48.320 example of the lengths that oil companies will go to 0:13:48.960 --> 0:13:52.280 even when they lose a battle or lose a case, 0:13:53.440 --> 0:13:54.960 to not be held accountable. 0:13:55.720 --> 0:13:55.960 Yes. 0:13:56.800 --> 0:14:00.160 Yeah, to me, I just feel like this is I 0:14:00.200 --> 0:14:02.200 don't know, this is like the thing I will probably 0:14:02.200 --> 0:14:07.679 point to you whenever people say things about negotiating with 0:14:08.040 --> 0:14:10.880 oil companies over climate policy. 0:14:11.480 --> 0:14:14.400 Just right right, I look at the you know, the 0:14:14.400 --> 0:14:18.840 inequality of the court system, yes, you know what I mean, 0:14:18.880 --> 0:14:22.480 the things that different folks told us about the Rico trial, 0:14:22.960 --> 0:14:27.000 and you know, the hundreds of lawyers that Chevron was 0:14:27.080 --> 0:14:30.880 able to work with, and the much less number of 0:14:30.960 --> 0:14:34.680 lawyers that you know, Stephen Donziger and the plaintiffs and 0:14:34.720 --> 0:14:38.640 that Ecuadorians were able to hire. And honestly, if you 0:14:38.720 --> 0:14:42.880 look at that in terms of everyday people, they were 0:14:43.000 --> 0:14:46.479 very lucky to have even been able to mount the defense. 0:14:46.120 --> 0:14:46.680 That they did. 0:14:46.960 --> 0:14:47.840 Right right. 0:14:48.280 --> 0:14:51.280 I thought that was such a good point that Julio 0:14:51.360 --> 0:14:55.000 Gomez made about how like the only one that can 0:14:55.040 --> 0:14:58.080 really go up against Chevron is like another oil company. 0:14:58.800 --> 0:15:02.000 Julio Gomez was the attorney for the Equadorian plaintiffs in 0:15:02.040 --> 0:15:04.640 the Rico trial. We heard from him a few times 0:15:04.680 --> 0:15:06.720 this season, but here's what he had to say about 0:15:06.720 --> 0:15:08.560 inequality in the justice system. 0:15:08.720 --> 0:15:12.880 People don't understand the incredible inequity in our legal system. 0:15:13.280 --> 0:15:17.440 To finances, it's Microsoft can only go up against Google, 0:15:17.920 --> 0:15:21.800 Apple can only go up against Samsung. Chevron can only 0:15:21.800 --> 0:15:25.200 go up against Exon Mobile and vice versa, because that's 0:15:25.240 --> 0:15:29.120 the only way to do it right. To meet every expert, 0:15:29.480 --> 0:15:33.359 to meet every motion, you need exactly the same resources. 0:15:33.640 --> 0:15:37.480 And unfortunately, our judicial system does not take that into account. 0:15:40.920 --> 0:15:44.720 People have this tendency to forget where laws and the 0:15:44.840 --> 0:15:50.000 justice system come from. It's not like this neutral, fair 0:15:50.840 --> 0:15:54.600 thing that it's sometimes painted as. You know, It's like 0:15:55.080 --> 0:15:58.680 most of the laws were written by, let's face it, 0:15:58.920 --> 0:16:02.040 wealthy white guy is in an attempt to maintain their 0:16:02.080 --> 0:16:03.000 wealth and power. 0:16:03.640 --> 0:16:05.160 Right, the idea that. 0:16:05.080 --> 0:16:09.080 It still tends to mostly work in favor of people 0:16:09.160 --> 0:16:12.000 with power and wealth should not surprise us. 0:16:12.320 --> 0:16:15.360 Right, yeah, yeah, Well, I said, have those thoughts that 0:16:15.360 --> 0:16:19.040 always come back to the Ecuadorian court system, Yeah, which 0:16:19.360 --> 0:16:20.240 affirmed the. 0:16:20.280 --> 0:16:21.760 Ruling at all of the levels. 0:16:21.960 --> 0:16:26.240 Yeah. And so part of me says, you know, here 0:16:26.400 --> 0:16:28.920 is the US and a US judge and a US 0:16:29.000 --> 0:16:32.520 corporation interfering with another. 0:16:32.160 --> 0:16:34.200 Country's judicial system. Yeah. 0:16:34.560 --> 0:16:36.200 I mean, what would happen if someone came in here 0:16:36.240 --> 0:16:38.160 and did that to our judicial system? 0:16:38.280 --> 0:16:46.120 Yeah, it would never happen. It would never happen. Okay. 0:16:46.160 --> 0:16:48.720 So I described this show as a true crime podcast 0:16:48.720 --> 0:16:51.920 about climate change, but this season was by far our 0:16:52.000 --> 0:16:54.480 most true crime and I feel like we need to 0:16:54.560 --> 0:16:57.359 address the elephant in the room, Donziger. 0:16:57.760 --> 0:17:00.760 The fact that this whole thing is built on a 0:17:00.760 --> 0:17:03.840 house of cards with a lying witness makes the case 0:17:03.960 --> 0:17:06.600 really vulnerable. And I think that explains why they're going 0:17:06.640 --> 0:17:09.760 after me, because I tell the truth about it and 0:17:10.119 --> 0:17:13.679 I have a lot of credibility. Other courts are probably 0:17:13.680 --> 0:17:15.200 going to be looking at this, I mean in other 0:17:15.240 --> 0:17:20.080 countries who enforced the judgment, And it's in Caplan's interests, 0:17:20.080 --> 0:17:22.840 in Chevron's interest that I be silenced. So you know, 0:17:22.920 --> 0:17:25.960 what better way to do that than to make up 0:17:25.960 --> 0:17:29.399 these criminal contempt charges and make me the first lawyer 0:17:29.400 --> 0:17:32.359 in US history ever detained pretrial and a criminal contempt 0:17:32.400 --> 0:17:36.800 case where I can't travel my passports confience gate, and 0:17:36.840 --> 0:17:38.159 I can't go into court. 0:17:38.560 --> 0:17:41.080 Did he do any of the things Chevron accused him of? 0:17:41.600 --> 0:17:43.960 All of them? None of them? Does it matter? 0:17:44.200 --> 0:17:47.679 Karen and I had some variation of this conversation a lot, 0:17:48.200 --> 0:17:51.320 in part because Donziger tried to control the story a lot, 0:17:51.440 --> 0:17:53.320 and we wanted to make sure that we weren't being 0:17:53.400 --> 0:17:56.720 influenced by what he alone was telling us. On a 0:17:56.840 --> 0:18:00.480 much smaller scale, we could really relate to what filmmaker 0:18:00.560 --> 0:18:04.440 Joe Berlinger told us about his experience covering this story. 0:18:04.560 --> 0:18:08.000 Here's the ten page memo from Donziger in which he's 0:18:08.040 --> 0:18:11.159 asking me to make a zillion changes, and I didn't 0:18:11.760 --> 0:18:14.719 make those changes and wrote him a terse email in 0:18:14.800 --> 0:18:18.159 response saying, Hey, I'm not making these changes. I'm the filmmaker, 0:18:18.200 --> 0:18:19.120 I have final cut. 0:18:19.320 --> 0:18:20.960 Okay, I'm going to ask I'm going to ask you 0:18:21.000 --> 0:18:25.280 the million dollar question, Karen, Uh, what are your thoughts? 0:18:26.080 --> 0:18:27.480 I'm Stephen Donziger. 0:18:34.680 --> 0:18:36.560 I'm trying to put this in the right in the 0:18:36.640 --> 0:18:42.800 right words. I think that regardless of whether you know, 0:18:42.880 --> 0:18:43.640 you can look. 0:18:43.480 --> 0:18:45.760 At the at the. 0:18:44.960 --> 0:18:47.800 Documents, as they're presented, which you know they've set our 0:18:47.960 --> 0:18:50.880 out of context. It's Donziger and the plaintiff has said 0:18:51.000 --> 0:18:52.359 set our out of context and not. 0:18:52.840 --> 0:18:54.520 You know, the narrative is not correct. 0:18:55.560 --> 0:19:00.440 So whether you believe that narrative that Chevron put out 0:19:00.440 --> 0:19:04.600 there or not, I think if you look at the 0:19:04.640 --> 0:19:08.200 heart of what is happening, I think that the intent, 0:19:08.480 --> 0:19:12.720 which was to get justice for the Ecuadorian people, is true. 0:19:13.720 --> 0:19:15.440 And I do think that this is one of those 0:19:15.480 --> 0:19:16.320 cases that you. 0:19:16.320 --> 0:19:18.320 Can look at it. In fact, I've done it myself. 0:19:18.760 --> 0:19:21.880 If I'm reading stuff that Chevron has put together, I'm. 0:19:21.720 --> 0:19:24.639 Like, Wow, this is looking really bad for this guy. 0:19:24.920 --> 0:19:27.119 But then if I look at stuff that that that 0:19:27.240 --> 0:19:30.160 Stephen Donzegrant and his team have put together, I'm like. 0:19:30.520 --> 0:19:33.720 Of course, why is Chavre even trying to say that? 0:19:34.160 --> 0:19:35.000 So you know, I go. 0:19:35.240 --> 0:19:37.400 You know, if you if you get your head too 0:19:37.440 --> 0:19:41.439 far deep into one narrative or the other, it's easy 0:19:41.520 --> 0:19:48.240 to see that side. So honestly, I cannot tell you 0:19:48.280 --> 0:19:51.880 what happened, but I can tell you what is still happening, 0:19:51.960 --> 0:19:55.199 and that's what the Ecuadorians have not gotten justice, and 0:19:55.240 --> 0:19:57.080 you know, they're doing everything they can, Like you said, 0:19:57.119 --> 0:19:59.320 they're you know, they're they're they're. 0:19:59.040 --> 0:20:01.360 Doing as much natural remediation if they can. 0:20:01.600 --> 0:20:05.360 They're doing their own litigation, you know, hoping to get 0:20:05.359 --> 0:20:11.439 the accountability. But at the end of the day, all 0:20:11.520 --> 0:20:16.399 of these more powerful people failed them, yes, in whatever 0:20:16.440 --> 0:20:21.840 way it was, you know, and it's just it just 0:20:21.880 --> 0:20:24.159 makes me sad that these folks are still dealing with 0:20:24.200 --> 0:20:27.240 I mean, this is going on several generations. It's not 0:20:27.320 --> 0:20:28.800 just like, you know, oh, when your kids are little, 0:20:28.800 --> 0:20:31.240 they're exposed to this, and now they're not. It's like, oh, 0:20:31.280 --> 0:20:33.119 when you are little, you're exposed to this, and now 0:20:33.200 --> 0:20:35.040 you're grown, and you have kids who are exposed to this, 0:20:35.200 --> 0:20:37.280 and now they have kids, and your grandkids are exposed 0:20:37.280 --> 0:20:39.640 to this, and their kids are going to be exposed 0:20:39.640 --> 0:20:39.840 to this. 0:20:40.560 --> 0:20:44.680 I keep thinking about this thing that Joe Berlinger said. 0:20:45.119 --> 0:20:48.240 I am not smart enough to tell you whether or 0:20:48.320 --> 0:20:53.720 not Chevron has wrapped itself up in enough legal arguments 0:20:53.760 --> 0:20:57.639 to be legally correct in this situation. But there is 0:20:57.680 --> 0:21:04.760 a moral issue here. There's a moral flaw that with 0:21:05.000 --> 0:21:09.879 such devastation, why are we not cleaning it up now 0:21:10.160 --> 0:21:12.960 and figuring out the legal responsibility later? 0:21:19.000 --> 0:21:23.159 Ultimately, even people who didn't necessarily like Donziger or the 0:21:23.160 --> 0:21:26.240 way he approached this case, think what's happening to him 0:21:26.280 --> 0:21:31.280 now is totally unjustified. In fact, folks pretty consistently see 0:21:31.280 --> 0:21:34.760 it as a very scary precedent that a company would 0:21:34.800 --> 0:21:38.040 go after a lawyer personally in the way that Chevron 0:21:38.119 --> 0:21:43.040 has gone after Donziger. Judith Kimerling was pretty critical of Donziger. 0:21:43.359 --> 0:21:45.400 She said this, for example. 0:21:45.400 --> 0:21:47.600 But the point I want to make is that, you know, 0:21:48.359 --> 0:21:51.520 while I think that the actions against Stephen are excessive, 0:21:51.680 --> 0:21:54.440 I don't think that he's just a victim because he's 0:21:54.480 --> 0:21:57.480 a human rights defender. I mean, I think that narrative 0:21:57.600 --> 0:22:01.400 is very simplistic. That we're pressed that Rico trial, who 0:22:01.400 --> 0:22:04.160 were asking me, well, you know, if they're real injuries, 0:22:04.280 --> 0:22:07.080 why why did these guys have to engage in fraud? 0:22:08.080 --> 0:22:14.440 And that's the question that Steven's conduct is begging. And 0:22:14.800 --> 0:22:17.560 the answer was, well, we have to win a battle 0:22:17.720 --> 0:22:21.560 in the with the press. And you know my response 0:22:21.640 --> 0:22:25.840 to that was you can win with the truth. And 0:22:26.040 --> 0:22:30.880 this you know, Chevron loves having the story be about Stephen. 0:22:31.359 --> 0:22:36.040 They're using it to discredit the real people who've been injured. 0:22:36.480 --> 0:22:40.000 It's problematic in many ways, and I think it's unfortunate. 0:22:40.080 --> 0:22:44.040 I don't see any soul searching, you know, on the 0:22:44.160 --> 0:22:48.200 environmental side about you know, what the mistakes were made 0:22:48.240 --> 0:22:50.720 and how it could be done better. Instead, it's just 0:22:50.800 --> 0:22:53.679 Steven's a victim, and you know, this is all because 0:22:53.720 --> 0:22:56.760 of how bad Chevron is and has nothing to do 0:22:56.840 --> 0:22:59.400 with his decisions and choices. 0:22:59.760 --> 0:23:02.840 But she also said this, I do think. 0:23:02.680 --> 0:23:06.720 That what's happening to Steven it's really excessive. I think 0:23:06.800 --> 0:23:12.560 that you treating Stephen like a criminal is really excessive. 0:23:12.760 --> 0:23:15.400 When we talked about this, Karen's take was basically, look, 0:23:15.480 --> 0:23:18.760 even if both sides did the exact same corrupt things, 0:23:18.880 --> 0:23:20.840 and we're not saying that they did, but if they did, 0:23:21.280 --> 0:23:23.440 one was doing it to try to clean up pollution 0:23:23.680 --> 0:23:27.040 and help a bunch of indigenous people and subsistence farmers 0:23:27.040 --> 0:23:29.639 in the Amazon, and the other was trying to protect 0:23:29.840 --> 0:23:36.159 shareholder profits a company losing profits and people not having 0:23:36.480 --> 0:23:40.040 clean water to drink for generations and being poisoned for 0:23:40.160 --> 0:23:41.760 generations are not equal. 0:23:42.359 --> 0:23:59.879 Right. 0:24:04.920 --> 0:24:07.120 That is it for this season. 0:24:07.560 --> 0:24:10.000 Thank you so much for staying with us. 0:24:10.160 --> 0:24:11.120