WEBVTT - The Department of Physiological Hygiene 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:22.156 Pushkin Hello, Hello, Revision's History listeners. Malcolm here, I just 0:00:22.196 --> 0:00:24.636 wanted to let you know that you can hear all 0:00:24.716 --> 0:00:28.156 the remaining episodes of season seven right now. 0:00:27.996 --> 0:00:28.476 If you like. 0:00:28.876 --> 0:00:31.676 All you need to do is become a Pushkin Plus subscriber. 0:00:32.356 --> 0:00:36.156 Pushkin Plus subscribers get access to Revision's History and many 0:00:36.236 --> 0:00:39.836 other Pushkin shows add free for just four to ninety 0:00:39.916 --> 0:00:44.276 nine a month, and you get bonus content and special 0:00:44.476 --> 0:00:47.476 early access. In this case, you won't have to wait 0:00:47.476 --> 0:00:49.916 two weeks for the rest of the season, which is 0:00:49.996 --> 0:00:52.876 an eternity considering just how good the rest of the 0:00:52.876 --> 0:00:56.756 season is. You can find Pushkin Plus on the Revision's 0:00:56.836 --> 0:01:01.236 History show page, in Apple Podcasts, or at pushkin dot fm, 0:01:01.396 --> 0:01:12.876 slash Plus. Minneapolis forty four busy sidewalks, miles of street 0:01:12.916 --> 0:01:17.316 car tracks, businessmen in gray suits and hats, shop girls 0:01:17.396 --> 0:01:20.916 in knee length skirts. The Mississippi snakes through the middle 0:01:20.956 --> 0:01:25.716 of the city. The Fauchet Tower looms overhead. Overseas, the 0:01:25.756 --> 0:01:28.796 war in Europe and the South Pacific still rages. So 0:01:28.876 --> 0:01:31.116 many of the younger men are gone, but there is 0:01:31.196 --> 0:01:35.356 bustle and energy that makes the downtown feel like Chicago 0:01:35.796 --> 0:01:41.036 or New York City unless you look closely and pay 0:01:41.076 --> 0:01:44.436 attention day after day, and if you did that, you 0:01:44.476 --> 0:01:48.276 would see a strange sight that set Minneapolis in that 0:01:48.356 --> 0:01:51.596 moment apart. You would see men in groups of two 0:01:52.116 --> 0:01:56.236 walk in the streets early twenties, dressed identically in khakis 0:01:56.356 --> 0:01:59.956 and white shirts. They would seem healthy at first, but 0:01:59.996 --> 0:02:02.636 then as the fall of nineteen forty four turns into 0:02:02.676 --> 0:02:05.996 the long winter and spring of nineteen forty five, you 0:02:06.036 --> 0:02:10.196 would see them start to change, could see them start 0:02:10.236 --> 0:02:12.916 to move slowly as if they were old men. Their 0:02:12.916 --> 0:02:17.116 clothes are one, then two, then three sizes, two, big eyes, 0:02:17.236 --> 0:02:21.516 hollowed out hair, thinning, skin like parchment. They sit in 0:02:21.556 --> 0:02:24.556 restaurants and soda fountains and drink cup after a cup 0:02:24.596 --> 0:02:28.276 of coffee, but never eat ever, even if you invited 0:02:28.316 --> 0:02:30.636 one of them to join your table, they just stare 0:02:30.636 --> 0:02:34.316 at your food with blank eyes, then move on, shuffling 0:02:34.356 --> 0:02:37.996 down the sidewalk across the Mississippi and back to a 0:02:38.036 --> 0:02:41.116 warn of rooms under the football stadium at the University 0:02:41.116 --> 0:02:47.436 of Minnesota. Back to the Department of Physiological Hygiene run 0:02:47.476 --> 0:02:53.236 by a man named Ansel Keys. What does he look like? 0:02:53.836 --> 0:02:56.916 Ansel Keys? He was short. You know, I think that 0:02:56.996 --> 0:03:00.636 bothered him a little bit. He was very muscular, He 0:03:00.756 --> 0:03:05.956 was very I think, very good looking in his youth. 0:03:06.636 --> 0:03:09.556 That's Sarah Tracy, a historian at the Universe Versity of 0:03:09.556 --> 0:03:12.356 Oklahoma who's writing a biography of ansel Keys. 0:03:12.876 --> 0:03:15.956 You know, he was a child genius. He was one 0:03:15.956 --> 0:03:20.116 of Lewis Urman's fifteen hundred gifted children whom he tracked. 0:03:20.236 --> 0:03:21.076 He was a termite. 0:03:21.156 --> 0:03:23.676 Yes, he was a termite. You know about the termite 0:03:23.716 --> 0:03:23.956 I do. 0:03:24.236 --> 0:03:24.676 I do. 0:03:25.516 --> 0:03:28.916 The termites were a group of children with super high IQs. 0:03:29.236 --> 0:03:31.876 You had to be very smart to be a termite. 0:03:32.356 --> 0:03:35.236 He was very self possessed as a child. You know, 0:03:35.316 --> 0:03:38.796 if he set his mind to doing something, he did it. 0:03:39.196 --> 0:03:42.116 He left high school three times, once to become a 0:03:42.156 --> 0:03:47.476 powder monkey and some mines gold mines, once to become 0:03:47.476 --> 0:03:52.476 a lumberjack, and once to collect bat guano from caves 0:03:52.516 --> 0:03:53.356 in Arizona. 0:03:54.116 --> 0:03:59.196 Ansel Keys was America's first true celebrity doctor, a mountain climber, 0:03:59.316 --> 0:04:01.836 an adventurer. He was on the cover of Time back 0:04:01.836 --> 0:04:04.716 when that was the real measure of celebrity. He wrote 0:04:04.756 --> 0:04:07.796 best selling cookbooks with his wife. He had a fabulous 0:04:07.916 --> 0:04:08.836 villain near Naples. 0:04:09.396 --> 0:04:12.876 The Army has developed a now famous k Ration, the 0:04:13.036 --> 0:04:14.676 completely streamlined meal. 0:04:15.236 --> 0:04:17.716 Back before the Second World War, the army came to 0:04:17.796 --> 0:04:20.396 him and asked him to make a high calorie pre 0:04:20.476 --> 0:04:25.476 prepared meal. It was called the k Ration K for Keys, 0:04:25.556 --> 0:04:28.596 of course, and millions of gis ended up carrying his 0:04:28.716 --> 0:04:29.876 creation into battle. 0:04:30.636 --> 0:04:36.116 Originally designed for paratroops, K proved ideal for tankbusters, commandos 0:04:36.356 --> 0:04:40.636 and all isolated units. Each package contains a balanced by 0:04:40.676 --> 0:04:41.476 them and rich meal. 0:04:43.556 --> 0:04:46.516 With the k Ration under his belt, Ansel Keys then 0:04:46.636 --> 0:04:51.316 turned his attention to an even bigger question, one that 0:04:51.436 --> 0:04:56.116 had long obsessed those who study human physiology. What happens 0:04:56.116 --> 0:05:00.156 to people when, for months on end, you deny them food. 0:05:03.436 --> 0:05:06.476 My name is Malcolm Gladwell. You're listening to Revisionist History, 0:05:06.716 --> 0:05:14.916 my podcast about things overlooked and missuno stood. This episode 0:05:14.956 --> 0:05:18.476 is about an audacious experiment conducted at the end of 0:05:18.476 --> 0:05:21.036 the Second World War by one of the most remarkable 0:05:21.036 --> 0:05:25.316 figures in twentieth century science, Ansel Keys. 0:05:31.636 --> 0:05:33.596 So, for purposes of the tape, if you could just 0:05:33.636 --> 0:05:37.076 state your name and the location and date of your birth. 0:05:37.836 --> 0:05:41.436 This is Earl Hackman, living at eight eight eight Hadlai 0:05:41.516 --> 0:05:45.036 and drive in elves And, Illinois, and I was born 0:05:45.116 --> 0:05:47.036 on December one, nineteen eighteen. 0:05:48.156 --> 0:05:50.796 The best record we have of what exactly happened in 0:05:50.836 --> 0:05:54.636 ansel Kes's laboratory is in a box of taped interviews 0:05:54.956 --> 0:05:57.516 stored away in the archives of the Library of Congress. 0:05:58.236 --> 0:06:02.036 Each tape runs roughly two hours in length. They contained 0:06:02.036 --> 0:06:06.556 the recollections of eighteen of ansel Keys's subjects, who sat 0:06:06.596 --> 0:06:11.156 down in their eighties to leave a record of their experience. 0:06:12.996 --> 0:06:14.236 My name is Sam Legg. 0:06:14.356 --> 0:06:17.116 I was born in Hackensack, New Jersey, on November tenth, 0:06:17.516 --> 0:06:18.516 nineteen sixteen. 0:06:19.316 --> 0:06:23.996 Max Campbellman with an M in the middle initial November seventh, 0:06:24.076 --> 0:06:24.836 nineteen twenty. 0:06:25.476 --> 0:06:29.476 The interviews were conducted by two researchers from Johns Hopkins University, 0:06:30.036 --> 0:06:34.436 Richard Semba and Leah kOhm. The tapes were given to 0:06:34.476 --> 0:06:37.236 the library shortly thereafter, where they have sat on a 0:06:37.316 --> 0:06:43.236 shelf ever since, untouched, a forgotten record of eighteen voices 0:06:43.476 --> 0:06:46.596 talking about an experience none of them will ever forget. 0:06:47.596 --> 0:06:51.036 It was known as the Minnesota Starvation Experiment. 0:06:54.596 --> 0:06:58.556 We were in Stadium South Tower, the football stadium. Underneath 0:06:58.596 --> 0:07:02.276 the stadium had quite a complex for research there, and 0:07:02.636 --> 0:07:04.836 there was a dormit. We lived in a dormitory there. 0:07:05.676 --> 0:07:11.036 All the activities at the university we're open to us. 0:07:12.476 --> 0:07:15.276 During their off hours, the men would roam the city. 0:07:15.476 --> 0:07:17.876 People living near the university saw them all the time, 0:07:18.236 --> 0:07:21.836 young men in white shirts and khaki pants, taking long 0:07:21.876 --> 0:07:26.396 walks along the Mississippi, sitting in restaurants, drinking coffee, but 0:07:26.596 --> 0:07:31.596 never eating a thing. The men called themselves the guinea pigs. 0:07:33.116 --> 0:07:36.636 We were all in excellent physical health, and as far 0:07:36.716 --> 0:07:39.396 as as far as they knew, we were all in 0:07:39.476 --> 0:07:41.996 good mental health at the time. We did not stay 0:07:42.036 --> 0:07:43.836 that way during the experiment, but we were. 0:07:46.396 --> 0:07:48.676 You can go to the Library of Congress and listen 0:07:48.716 --> 0:07:50.716 to the tapes in the reading room yourself if you like. 0:07:51.556 --> 0:07:54.476 You might end up wondering what was ansel Keys trying 0:07:54.516 --> 0:07:58.156 to accomplish by putting his subjects through so much? And 0:07:58.316 --> 0:07:59.036 was it worth it? 0:08:00.876 --> 0:08:04.236 When I hear somebody say, oh, I'm simply starved, I 0:08:04.276 --> 0:08:08.156 know they don't know what they're saying, because there's a 0:08:08.196 --> 0:08:13.276 real difference between what your body craves for from Thessouri's 0:08:13.316 --> 0:08:17.996 heals of starvation then what you normally feel as hunger. 0:08:20.836 --> 0:08:24.156 The second episode of this season of Provision's history was 0:08:24.156 --> 0:08:26.916 devoted in large part to the story of the famous 0:08:26.956 --> 0:08:30.116 iodine experiments in Akron, Ohio. During the First World War. 0:08:30.756 --> 0:08:33.236 A doctor named David Marine was trying to figure out 0:08:33.356 --> 0:08:37.316 how to treat goiter, a condition that causes severe enlargement 0:08:37.436 --> 0:08:41.196 of the thyroid gland. Goiter was widespread in the early 0:08:41.236 --> 0:08:44.556 part of the twentieth century. Millions of people walked around 0:08:44.596 --> 0:08:48.196 with baseball sized bulges on their necks. Marine wanted to 0:08:48.236 --> 0:08:51.396 see if regular doses of iodine could solve the problem, 0:08:51.716 --> 0:08:54.116 so he convinced the Akron school board to let him 0:08:54.156 --> 0:08:57.916 run a study on thousands of schoolgirls feeding them regular 0:08:57.956 --> 0:09:01.996 doses of iodine to see if it prevented goiter. Could 0:09:01.996 --> 0:09:07.116 that experiment, I wondered, be conducted today. I called up 0:09:07.156 --> 0:09:12.236 the bioethicist Art Kaplan, who teaches at New York University today. 0:09:12.396 --> 0:09:17.636 To attempt this experiment to prevent goiter would be a 0:09:18.156 --> 0:09:23.076 hugely different experience for that researcher and for the subjects, 0:09:23.476 --> 0:09:27.036 the school board and their families. For one thing, when 0:09:27.036 --> 0:09:30.076 that experiment was done, there were no federal regulations. There 0:09:30.156 --> 0:09:34.076 was no federal oversight of what was going on. 0:09:34.636 --> 0:09:39.356 These days, most experiments involving human subjects are closely regulated. 0:09:39.956 --> 0:09:44.116 They involved consent forms, disclosure statements, the right to drop 0:09:44.156 --> 0:09:47.556 out of a study at any given time. Caplan's point 0:09:47.716 --> 0:09:50.876 was that, compared to today, medical research in the past 0:09:51.076 --> 0:09:53.636 starts to look like the wild West. If you could 0:09:53.636 --> 0:09:57.316 find the money and talk people into participating, off you went. 0:10:02.396 --> 0:10:05.916 In Alabama, between the nineteen thirties and the nineteen seventies, 0:10:06.076 --> 0:10:09.796 the Public Health Service launched the Tuskegee Syphilista, where a 0:10:09.796 --> 0:10:12.996 group of African American men were tricked into signing up 0:10:13.156 --> 0:10:15.676 for what they thought was medical treatment, when in fact 0:10:15.836 --> 0:10:18.276 all the researchers wanted to do was to find out 0:10:18.276 --> 0:10:21.236 what happened when you let untreated syphilis run its course. 0:10:22.116 --> 0:10:27.236 It was maybe the lowest moment in twentieth century American medicine. 0:10:27.316 --> 0:10:30.676 In the early nineteen sixties, the Yale psychologist Stanley Milgram 0:10:30.836 --> 0:10:33.276 ran his infamous Obedient Study two. 0:10:33.116 --> 0:10:35.276 One hundred and eighty five volts. 0:10:36.676 --> 0:10:41.276 Where Milgram deceived otherwise unsuspecting subjects into thinking that they 0:10:41.316 --> 0:10:44.916 were delivering high voltage electric shocks to someone they'd never met. 0:10:45.396 --> 0:10:48.276 I have reduced to ancel anymore, cut me out of 0:10:48.276 --> 0:10:49.836 me who kid al readers cut me. 0:10:49.916 --> 0:10:51.716 Out, keet me out of contending. 0:10:51.756 --> 0:10:53.196 The next word is green played. 0:10:53.796 --> 0:10:57.596 In today's era, the number one consideration in any proposed 0:10:57.636 --> 0:11:02.156 experiment is its effect on a subject. Back then, the 0:11:02.276 --> 0:11:05.116 number one consideration was the value of what you could 0:11:05.196 --> 0:11:08.276 learn from the subject. The subject was thought of like 0:11:08.316 --> 0:11:11.836 a soldier in battle, someone whose well being was secondary 0:11:11.876 --> 0:11:12.836 to the larger cause. 0:11:15.196 --> 0:11:18.356 The answer to the vitamin question is not pill, but 0:11:18.556 --> 0:11:22.316 good food in plenty of variety. According to doctor Key, 0:11:23.956 --> 0:11:24.996 if vitamins. 0:11:24.556 --> 0:11:26.716 Were missing from his food, the soldier might have to 0:11:26.716 --> 0:11:28.396 take concentrated vitamins. 0:11:29.436 --> 0:11:31.516 If he had vitamins but no food. 0:11:31.276 --> 0:11:32.356 He was still starved. 0:11:33.716 --> 0:11:36.116 Best way, naturally is supply vitamins and the food. 0:11:37.556 --> 0:11:40.116 Now, remember the statue of Ansel Keys has attained during 0:11:40.116 --> 0:11:43.676 the Second World War. He's the world's greatest nutrition researcher. 0:11:44.356 --> 0:11:47.476 He's closely involved with the war effort. He just developed 0:11:47.476 --> 0:11:50.316 the k ration to greater claim, and he looks around 0:11:50.356 --> 0:11:53.196 the world that he sees millions of people suffering from 0:11:53.236 --> 0:11:58.996 severe malnutrition. The war disrupted the food supply of entire continents. 0:11:59.036 --> 0:12:03.196 Millions of people were in concentration camps, reduced to skeletons. 0:12:03.956 --> 0:12:07.916 Ansel Keys knew how little his field understood about prolonged malnutrition. 0:12:08.836 --> 0:12:11.676 What was the effect of long term hunger on physical 0:12:11.676 --> 0:12:15.596 well being, on psychological health, and what was the best 0:12:15.636 --> 0:12:19.316 way to bring the undernourished back to health? What was 0:12:19.356 --> 0:12:22.836 more important how much you fed someone or what you 0:12:22.956 --> 0:12:31.396 fed someone. So Keys designs an experiment. He would need 0:12:31.636 --> 0:12:35.476 thirty six subjects for at least a year. The first 0:12:35.516 --> 0:12:39.396 three months would be the control period. Each research subject 0:12:39.516 --> 0:12:42.796 would be stabilized at what Keys estimated to be their 0:12:42.916 --> 0:12:48.236 correct weight, three full meals a day intake matching outtake. Then, 0:12:48.516 --> 0:12:53.236 after stabilization would come six months of severe calorie restriction, 0:12:53.796 --> 0:12:56.236 with the goal that each man losed twenty five percent 0:12:56.356 --> 0:13:00.716 of his ideal weight. Exercise would be mandatory throughout the study, 0:13:00.996 --> 0:13:03.516 twenty two miles a week of walking up and down 0:13:03.516 --> 0:13:07.396 the Mississippi or through downtown Minneapolis, all through the long 0:13:07.476 --> 0:13:12.676 Minnesota winter and through the following summer. Each participant tested 0:13:12.796 --> 0:13:17.076 on a regular basis blood samples, sperm samples, body fat, 0:13:17.196 --> 0:13:20.316 blood volumes. The men would be asked to keep journals 0:13:20.476 --> 0:13:24.276 and record their thoughts and dreams, and then after six 0:13:24.316 --> 0:13:28.516 months of starvation, three months of recovery. The crucial part 0:13:29.276 --> 0:13:33.556 Keys plan to test out different rehabilitation diets with varying 0:13:33.596 --> 0:13:41.596 amounts of calories, protein, and vitamins. The experiment begins on 0:13:41.676 --> 0:13:46.156 November nineteenth, nineteen forty four. Keys gathers his guinea pigs 0:13:46.236 --> 0:13:50.236 at the Laboratory of Physiological Hygiene underneath the football stadium. 0:13:50.756 --> 0:13:53.516 He stands in front of all thirty six and gives 0:13:53.556 --> 0:13:55.876 them a speech. He had stayed up the previous night 0:13:56.316 --> 0:13:57.356 practicing in front. 0:13:57.156 --> 0:13:57.676 Of his wife. 0:13:58.516 --> 0:14:01.676 Quote. We are here because of the problem of relief 0:14:01.676 --> 0:14:05.516 feeding in general, and particularly in the war devastated areas. 0:14:05.556 --> 0:14:05.876 Today. 0:14:06.436 --> 0:14:09.956 You can imagine a moment Keys, the brilliant sign, bringing 0:14:09.996 --> 0:14:12.676 the group of young men before him under his spell. 0:14:13.636 --> 0:14:17.156 Human misery and want are qualities of life which properly 0:14:17.196 --> 0:14:22.916 bring in emotional response. But starvation is quantitative and must 0:14:22.956 --> 0:14:28.516 be met with quantitative answers. Grand words tailor made for 0:14:28.596 --> 0:14:31.836 men of idealism, eager for a chance to serve their country. 0:14:32.756 --> 0:14:36.956 And then are you ready to begin? And a deafening 0:14:37.076 --> 0:14:37.756 cheer goes. 0:14:37.636 --> 0:14:59.796 Up when we start this experiment. We were all given 0:14:59.836 --> 0:15:00.876 the same amount of proof. 0:15:02.236 --> 0:15:04.916 Listening to the oral histories from the veterans of the 0:15:04.916 --> 0:15:08.436 Minnesota Starvation experiment is a strange experience. 0:15:09.116 --> 0:15:12.596 We had six slices of bread. They take away two 0:15:12.636 --> 0:15:17.676 slices and four slices six slices, and if you still 0:15:17.676 --> 0:15:21.236 didn't lose weight, then they just started taking away your potato. 0:15:23.436 --> 0:15:25.436 The men are all at the end of their lives. 0:15:25.956 --> 0:15:29.716 Nearly sixty years have passed since the experiment ended. But 0:15:29.876 --> 0:15:32.756 rarely do any of them say I don't remember or 0:15:32.956 --> 0:15:37.436 I don't know. They know, and they remember, and their 0:15:37.436 --> 0:15:41.436 memories are precise. In fact, it seems like they'd been 0:15:41.476 --> 0:15:44.276 reliving the long year between the fall of nineteen forty 0:15:44.276 --> 0:15:47.676 four and the fall of nineteen forty five ever since. 0:15:52.276 --> 0:15:55.036 Do you remember what your lowest weight got down to? 0:15:57.556 --> 0:16:00.396 One hundred and thirty four? 0:16:00.556 --> 0:16:04.516 I believe what was sort of your standard weight entering. 0:16:07.276 --> 0:16:10.636 I went in at two twenty and they they do 0:16:11.396 --> 0:16:12.956 standardized me down till. 0:16:12.796 --> 0:16:17.596 One to eighty before the real experiment began, So I 0:16:17.636 --> 0:16:18.916 got down to one thirty four. 0:16:20.356 --> 0:16:23.596 The thirty six subjects started the experiment with high hopes. 0:16:24.316 --> 0:16:27.156 Keys had arranged for them to take classes at the university. 0:16:27.636 --> 0:16:31.396 The men themselves organized dramatic productions and planned to hold 0:16:31.556 --> 0:16:35.756 educational seminars. Many wanted to prepare themselves for relief work 0:16:36.076 --> 0:16:39.836 after the war was over. In the recruitment leaflet Keys 0:16:39.876 --> 0:16:44.356 sent out, he mentioned the intriguing possibilities in the fact 0:16:44.356 --> 0:16:47.636 that there was an all women's dormitory nearby for those, 0:16:47.836 --> 0:16:50.516 as he put it, who wanted to be a guinea 0:16:50.516 --> 0:16:53.036 pig by day and a wolf by night. 0:17:00.436 --> 0:17:03.276 What happened after once the semi servation started. 0:17:03.596 --> 0:17:07.556 Things went downhill very fast, well, not real fast. It 0:17:07.636 --> 0:17:12.196 didn't seem much change at first, But when we got 0:17:12.196 --> 0:17:16.156 down to the place where we really knew what the 0:17:16.156 --> 0:17:17.076 word hunger meant. 0:17:17.636 --> 0:17:18.876 Instead of just saying. 0:17:18.756 --> 0:17:22.236 I'm hungry, let's go eat, which isn't the word hunger, 0:17:22.436 --> 0:17:24.996 I mean, it's a different different. When we really felt 0:17:24.996 --> 0:17:33.156 pains of hunger and we began thinking about food most 0:17:33.156 --> 0:17:37.036 of the time, and so forth, we began to be 0:17:37.156 --> 0:17:38.156 more and more irritable. 0:17:39.556 --> 0:17:42.756 After the three months of initial rigor, while they stabilized 0:17:42.756 --> 0:17:47.196 their weight, the severe calorie restrictions kicked in. Everyone now 0:17:47.276 --> 0:17:51.516 got just two meals a day cabbage, potatoes, bread slices, 0:17:51.956 --> 0:17:56.116 ruda begas, and occasional treats of macaroni and cheese. 0:17:56.796 --> 0:17:59.196 I was one of the few, now I shouldn't say few. 0:17:59.236 --> 0:18:04.636 I was one of the many that metally was transfixed 0:18:04.676 --> 0:18:08.356 on cookbooks, and I collected probably one hundred cooks and books. 0:18:08.436 --> 0:18:09.956 I would read. 0:18:09.716 --> 0:18:12.116 Cook books like you would read readers digest. 0:18:13.076 --> 0:18:15.756 Some of the men would walk into Minneapolis, sit in 0:18:15.796 --> 0:18:19.316 restaurants and watch other people lead the way they might 0:18:19.356 --> 0:18:21.876 have once gone to a concert or watched a play. 0:18:22.836 --> 0:18:26.516 They dreamt about food, They argued about food. At meal times, 0:18:26.756 --> 0:18:28.476 they fixated on their plates. 0:18:28.956 --> 0:18:32.596 I mean we would lick the plates, really and I remember. 0:18:32.316 --> 0:18:34.476 Well, I heard that a bit of that caused a 0:18:34.476 --> 0:18:35.116 bit of tension. 0:18:35.836 --> 0:18:40.116 I think it did, particularly abling for instance, one of 0:18:40.156 --> 0:18:42.996 the first that I saw doing that, and that's disgusting. 0:18:43.756 --> 0:18:51.276 I'm pretty sud I were doing it myself, so oh yeah, 0:18:51.556 --> 0:18:54.516 I mean I just just thought, this is that you 0:18:54.556 --> 0:18:57.956 would actually degrade yourself to the extent of licking a plate, 0:18:58.196 --> 0:19:01.916 kid me a break, and that we were all looking at. 0:19:04.756 --> 0:19:07.596 Coffee was one of the few indulgences they were allowed, 0:19:07.796 --> 0:19:11.356 so they drank it to excess, twelve eighteen cups a day. 0:19:11.636 --> 0:19:15.156 They chewed enormous amounts of bubblegum. They began souping their 0:19:15.196 --> 0:19:18.116 meals their word for adding water to everything they were 0:19:18.116 --> 0:19:21.396 given to create the sense that their portions were bigger. 0:19:22.556 --> 0:19:24.356 One of the men took a date to see to 0:19:24.476 --> 0:19:28.436 Have and Have Not, starring Humphrey Bogart and Lauren Bacall. 0:19:29.196 --> 0:19:32.396 I'm sorry, Slim, but I still say you're awful good 0:19:32.396 --> 0:19:33.276 And I wouldn't. 0:19:32.956 --> 0:19:36.556 Oh, I forgot. You wouldn't take anything from anybody, would you. 0:19:36.796 --> 0:19:37.276 That's right? 0:19:37.876 --> 0:19:41.036 One of the great romantic dramas of the Warriors. But 0:19:41.076 --> 0:19:44.756 he couldn't concentrate except for the part where Bogart goes 0:19:44.796 --> 0:19:45.476 to a restaurant. 0:19:46.316 --> 0:19:50.116 And if you went to a movie, you weren't particularly 0:19:50.116 --> 0:19:52.836 interested in a lot of scenes, but you noticed every 0:19:52.876 --> 0:19:54.116 time they ate and what they ate. 0:19:55.356 --> 0:19:58.596 During the long starvation phase, Keys began to lose some 0:19:58.676 --> 0:20:01.836 of his subjects. One of them went walking through down 0:20:01.916 --> 0:20:06.236 to Minneapolis, and suddenly his resolve broke. He'd been having 0:20:06.316 --> 0:20:11.476 dreams of cannibalism. He went into seventeen different soda fountains 0:20:11.916 --> 0:20:14.236 and gulp down a milkshake at each one. 0:20:15.756 --> 0:20:19.916 After that, we could not go out without a buddy, 0:20:20.476 --> 0:20:23.196 and if we had a girlfriend, we could bring the 0:20:23.236 --> 0:20:27.516 girlfriend in. The doctors would interview the girl and go 0:20:27.756 --> 0:20:31.516 care So when we were on a date to your buddy. 0:20:32.596 --> 0:20:36.836 Finally, after six months of starvation recovery. 0:20:36.916 --> 0:20:38.916 On the final day, when you were able to finally 0:20:38.916 --> 0:20:40.476 break what, do you remember what you did? 0:20:41.316 --> 0:20:48.756 Yes, they did a big breakfast for us, and that 0:20:49.716 --> 0:20:53.036 most of us stuffed ourselves. And then I think I 0:20:53.076 --> 0:20:57.036 went downtown in one restaurant and went and ate another meal, 0:20:57.116 --> 0:20:59.196 and then got out and went to another one. And 0:21:01.396 --> 0:21:05.836 just I mean, one couldn't satisfy your craving for food 0:21:05.836 --> 0:21:08.636 by filling up your stomach. Many of us, I think 0:21:08.716 --> 0:21:14.356 did unreasonable things. I was invited out for I think 0:21:14.356 --> 0:21:17.476 a Swiss steak dinner, and though I was filled to 0:21:17.556 --> 0:21:21.996 the brim, I went and stuff a little bit more 0:21:22.636 --> 0:21:26.436 in on top, and then got on a bus writing 0:21:27.036 --> 0:21:32.836 back to the to the stadium and jostling up and 0:21:32.876 --> 0:21:35.476 down on the All of a sudden I lost it all. 0:21:36.356 --> 0:21:39.596 Now I got off at the next time. I felt 0:21:39.596 --> 0:21:42.036 sorry for the guy that was going to have to 0:21:42.076 --> 0:21:45.476 clean it up, but I didn't stay around. 0:21:52.476 --> 0:21:56.356 In nineteen fifty five, years after the study ended, Keys 0:21:56.436 --> 0:22:01.516 published The Biology of Human Starvation, his landmark two volume 0:22:01.556 --> 0:22:05.596 account of what was learned during the study. To this day. 0:22:06.156 --> 0:22:10.276 That book helps doctors understand everything from in relief to 0:22:10.356 --> 0:22:15.156 eating disorders. If you've ever used the terms metabolism, intimate 0:22:15.236 --> 0:22:18.716 and fasting, calories in and calories out, then you're talking 0:22:18.716 --> 0:22:22.996 about concepts that go back to the Keys experiment. Ansel 0:22:23.076 --> 0:22:26.756 Keys did exactly what he set out to do, but 0:22:26.836 --> 0:22:30.516 his subjects they were soldiers in a battle whose well 0:22:30.556 --> 0:22:35.436 being was secondary to the larger cause. Years later, the 0:22:35.476 --> 0:22:39.956 subjects of the starvation experiment gathered for a reunion. Ansel Keys, 0:22:40.436 --> 0:22:43.836 by then an old man, addressed the group. Someone asked 0:22:43.916 --> 0:22:46.436 him did he think the benefits of what was learned 0:22:46.836 --> 0:22:48.996 were greater than the costs of what the men went through? 0:22:49.636 --> 0:22:51.076 He looked out at all the men in front of 0:22:51.156 --> 0:23:08.836 him and said, well, you're all here, aren't you. Out 0:23:08.876 --> 0:23:10.676 Of all all the interviews in the box of tapes 0:23:10.716 --> 0:23:14.796 at the Library of Congress, one stands out the testimony 0:23:14.796 --> 0:23:17.676 of a man named Sam Legg. His father was a 0:23:17.676 --> 0:23:20.956 stockbroker in New York City. Sam went to the elite 0:23:20.996 --> 0:23:23.556 Saint Paul's private school in New Hampshire and then on 0:23:23.636 --> 0:23:26.956 to Yale. Sam Legg was someone the other guinea pigs 0:23:26.956 --> 0:23:30.436 looked up to, that is until his behavior took a 0:23:30.476 --> 0:23:34.836 sharp turn during the six month starvation period. His moods 0:23:34.876 --> 0:23:37.996 began to swing back and forth. Like many others, he 0:23:38.036 --> 0:23:42.836 got obsessed with cookbooks, but his obsession was pronounced. He 0:23:42.876 --> 0:23:46.236 took to eating in the corner by himself. The historian 0:23:46.316 --> 0:23:50.116 Todd Tucker interviewed Leg for his book The Great Starvation Experiment. 0:23:50.636 --> 0:23:54.396 He writes about the way Legs started to eat. He 0:23:54.556 --> 0:23:57.276 combined all the food on his tray into one pile. 0:23:57.996 --> 0:24:00.956 He then took his fork and stirred it and mashed 0:24:00.956 --> 0:24:04.996 it altogether, the thimblefuls of fish, chowder, spaghetti, peas, and 0:24:05.036 --> 0:24:09.116 potatoes until it was a homogeneous, dark gray greenish page 0:24:09.356 --> 0:24:13.236 on his plate. He then salted and peppered the amalgamation 0:24:13.676 --> 0:24:17.036 until it was crusted with seasoning. When he had scraped 0:24:17.076 --> 0:24:20.236 every morsel off his plate, he then picked it up 0:24:20.596 --> 0:24:24.116 and licked it noisily until not a molecule of food remained. 0:24:25.116 --> 0:24:28.436 The slurping noise was so loud it made the other 0:24:28.516 --> 0:24:34.676 men WinCE. In his oral history interview, Leg talks about 0:24:34.876 --> 0:24:38.596 how during the starvation phase he felt his character start 0:24:38.636 --> 0:24:39.316 to slip away. 0:24:39.916 --> 0:24:42.436 I'll tell you a nasty moment. 0:24:42.716 --> 0:24:45.796 I was walking along and I obviously had a buddy, 0:24:45.836 --> 0:24:46.716 but I don't know who it was. 0:24:48.316 --> 0:24:58.516 And it was deep into the semi starvation, and we 0:24:58.516 --> 0:24:59.596 were tired. 0:25:00.636 --> 0:25:03.116 When they crossed the street, they didn't have the energy 0:25:03.116 --> 0:25:05.116 to take the half step up onto the sidewalk. 0:25:05.476 --> 0:25:09.276 We were tired and weak and so well. 0:25:09.436 --> 0:25:12.876 We were standing at a corner waiting for a light 0:25:12.996 --> 0:25:15.436 or something, and a kid came along on a bicycle 0:25:16.716 --> 0:25:19.676 and he was really moving, pumping away and going to shoot. 0:25:20.996 --> 0:25:22.796 I said, I wonder where he's going. And then I 0:25:22.796 --> 0:25:25.796 said said to myself, I know where he's going. He's 0:25:25.836 --> 0:25:31.436 going home for supper, and I'm not. And then, for 0:25:31.596 --> 0:25:34.876 a very brief I hope it was brief moment, I 0:25:34.916 --> 0:25:41.476 suddenly hated that that boy, and that I hate at 0:25:41.476 --> 0:25:46.036 this point to tell you this because it doesn't speak 0:25:46.156 --> 0:25:51.436 very well for me, but I I have remembered it 0:25:51.556 --> 0:25:58.836 with I guess horror that that I could feel such 0:25:58.876 --> 0:26:04.756 a thing so utterly irrational, But there was, and uh, 0:26:04.796 --> 0:26:07.916 you ask an experience that I remember. I sure remember that. 0:26:13.276 --> 0:26:16.876 The interview is almost over. Just one final question. 0:26:19.036 --> 0:26:22.396 Is there anything that we haven't talked about or that 0:26:22.716 --> 0:26:25.076