1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:22,156 Speaker 1: Pushkin Hello, Hello, Revision's History listeners. Malcolm here, I just 2 00:00:22,196 --> 00:00:24,636 Speaker 1: wanted to let you know that you can hear all 3 00:00:24,716 --> 00:00:28,156 Speaker 1: the remaining episodes of season seven right now. 4 00:00:27,996 --> 00:00:28,476 Speaker 2: If you like. 5 00:00:28,876 --> 00:00:31,676 Speaker 1: All you need to do is become a Pushkin Plus subscriber. 6 00:00:32,356 --> 00:00:36,156 Speaker 1: Pushkin Plus subscribers get access to Revision's History and many 7 00:00:36,236 --> 00:00:39,836 Speaker 1: other Pushkin shows add free for just four to ninety 8 00:00:39,916 --> 00:00:44,276 Speaker 1: nine a month, and you get bonus content and special 9 00:00:44,476 --> 00:00:47,476 Speaker 1: early access. In this case, you won't have to wait 10 00:00:47,476 --> 00:00:49,916 Speaker 1: two weeks for the rest of the season, which is 11 00:00:49,996 --> 00:00:52,876 Speaker 1: an eternity considering just how good the rest of the 12 00:00:52,876 --> 00:00:56,756 Speaker 1: season is. You can find Pushkin Plus on the Revision's 13 00:00:56,836 --> 00:01:01,236 Speaker 1: History show page, in Apple Podcasts, or at pushkin dot fm, 14 00:01:01,396 --> 00:01:12,876 Speaker 1: slash Plus. Minneapolis forty four busy sidewalks, miles of street 15 00:01:12,916 --> 00:01:17,316 Speaker 1: car tracks, businessmen in gray suits and hats, shop girls 16 00:01:17,396 --> 00:01:20,916 Speaker 1: in knee length skirts. The Mississippi snakes through the middle 17 00:01:20,956 --> 00:01:25,716 Speaker 1: of the city. The Fauchet Tower looms overhead. Overseas, the 18 00:01:25,756 --> 00:01:28,796 Speaker 1: war in Europe and the South Pacific still rages. So 19 00:01:28,876 --> 00:01:31,116 Speaker 1: many of the younger men are gone, but there is 20 00:01:31,196 --> 00:01:35,356 Speaker 1: bustle and energy that makes the downtown feel like Chicago 21 00:01:35,796 --> 00:01:41,036 Speaker 1: or New York City unless you look closely and pay 22 00:01:41,076 --> 00:01:44,436 Speaker 1: attention day after day, and if you did that, you 23 00:01:44,476 --> 00:01:48,276 Speaker 1: would see a strange sight that set Minneapolis in that 24 00:01:48,356 --> 00:01:51,596 Speaker 1: moment apart. You would see men in groups of two 25 00:01:52,116 --> 00:01:56,236 Speaker 1: walk in the streets early twenties, dressed identically in khakis 26 00:01:56,356 --> 00:01:59,956 Speaker 1: and white shirts. They would seem healthy at first, but 27 00:01:59,996 --> 00:02:02,636 Speaker 1: then as the fall of nineteen forty four turns into 28 00:02:02,676 --> 00:02:05,996 Speaker 1: the long winter and spring of nineteen forty five, you 29 00:02:06,036 --> 00:02:10,196 Speaker 1: would see them start to change, could see them start 30 00:02:10,236 --> 00:02:12,916 Speaker 1: to move slowly as if they were old men. Their 31 00:02:12,916 --> 00:02:17,116 Speaker 1: clothes are one, then two, then three sizes, two, big eyes, 32 00:02:17,236 --> 00:02:21,516 Speaker 1: hollowed out hair, thinning, skin like parchment. They sit in 33 00:02:21,556 --> 00:02:24,556 Speaker 1: restaurants and soda fountains and drink cup after a cup 34 00:02:24,596 --> 00:02:28,276 Speaker 1: of coffee, but never eat ever, even if you invited 35 00:02:28,316 --> 00:02:30,636 Speaker 1: one of them to join your table, they just stare 36 00:02:30,636 --> 00:02:34,316 Speaker 1: at your food with blank eyes, then move on, shuffling 37 00:02:34,356 --> 00:02:37,996 Speaker 1: down the sidewalk across the Mississippi and back to a 38 00:02:38,036 --> 00:02:41,116 Speaker 1: warn of rooms under the football stadium at the University 39 00:02:41,116 --> 00:02:47,436 Speaker 1: of Minnesota. Back to the Department of Physiological Hygiene run 40 00:02:47,476 --> 00:02:53,236 Speaker 1: by a man named Ansel Keys. What does he look like? 41 00:02:53,836 --> 00:02:56,916 Speaker 3: Ansel Keys? He was short. You know, I think that 42 00:02:56,996 --> 00:03:00,636 Speaker 3: bothered him a little bit. He was very muscular, He 43 00:03:00,756 --> 00:03:05,956 Speaker 3: was very I think, very good looking in his youth. 44 00:03:06,636 --> 00:03:09,556 Speaker 1: That's Sarah Tracy, a historian at the Universe Versity of 45 00:03:09,556 --> 00:03:12,356 Speaker 1: Oklahoma who's writing a biography of ansel Keys. 46 00:03:12,876 --> 00:03:15,956 Speaker 3: You know, he was a child genius. He was one 47 00:03:15,956 --> 00:03:20,116 Speaker 3: of Lewis Urman's fifteen hundred gifted children whom he tracked. 48 00:03:20,236 --> 00:03:21,076 Speaker 1: He was a termite. 49 00:03:21,156 --> 00:03:23,676 Speaker 3: Yes, he was a termite. You know about the termite 50 00:03:23,716 --> 00:03:23,956 Speaker 3: I do. 51 00:03:24,236 --> 00:03:24,676 Speaker 2: I do. 52 00:03:25,516 --> 00:03:28,916 Speaker 1: The termites were a group of children with super high IQs. 53 00:03:29,236 --> 00:03:31,876 Speaker 1: You had to be very smart to be a termite. 54 00:03:32,356 --> 00:03:35,236 Speaker 3: He was very self possessed as a child. You know, 55 00:03:35,316 --> 00:03:38,796 Speaker 3: if he set his mind to doing something, he did it. 56 00:03:39,196 --> 00:03:42,116 Speaker 3: He left high school three times, once to become a 57 00:03:42,156 --> 00:03:47,476 Speaker 3: powder monkey and some mines gold mines, once to become 58 00:03:47,476 --> 00:03:52,476 Speaker 3: a lumberjack, and once to collect bat guano from caves 59 00:03:52,516 --> 00:03:53,356 Speaker 3: in Arizona. 60 00:03:54,116 --> 00:03:59,196 Speaker 1: Ansel Keys was America's first true celebrity doctor, a mountain climber, 61 00:03:59,316 --> 00:04:01,836 Speaker 1: an adventurer. He was on the cover of Time back 62 00:04:01,836 --> 00:04:04,716 Speaker 1: when that was the real measure of celebrity. He wrote 63 00:04:04,756 --> 00:04:07,796 Speaker 1: best selling cookbooks with his wife. He had a fabulous 64 00:04:07,916 --> 00:04:08,836 Speaker 1: villain near Naples. 65 00:04:09,396 --> 00:04:12,876 Speaker 4: The Army has developed a now famous k Ration, the 66 00:04:13,036 --> 00:04:14,676 Speaker 4: completely streamlined meal. 67 00:04:15,236 --> 00:04:17,716 Speaker 1: Back before the Second World War, the army came to 68 00:04:17,796 --> 00:04:20,396 Speaker 1: him and asked him to make a high calorie pre 69 00:04:20,476 --> 00:04:25,476 Speaker 1: prepared meal. It was called the k Ration K for Keys, 70 00:04:25,556 --> 00:04:28,596 Speaker 1: of course, and millions of gis ended up carrying his 71 00:04:28,716 --> 00:04:29,876 Speaker 1: creation into battle. 72 00:04:30,636 --> 00:04:36,116 Speaker 4: Originally designed for paratroops, K proved ideal for tankbusters, commandos 73 00:04:36,356 --> 00:04:40,636 Speaker 4: and all isolated units. Each package contains a balanced by 74 00:04:40,676 --> 00:04:41,476 Speaker 4: them and rich meal. 75 00:04:43,556 --> 00:04:46,516 Speaker 1: With the k Ration under his belt, Ansel Keys then 76 00:04:46,636 --> 00:04:51,316 Speaker 1: turned his attention to an even bigger question, one that 77 00:04:51,436 --> 00:04:56,116 Speaker 1: had long obsessed those who study human physiology. What happens 78 00:04:56,116 --> 00:05:00,156 Speaker 1: to people when, for months on end, you deny them food. 79 00:05:03,436 --> 00:05:06,476 Speaker 1: My name is Malcolm Gladwell. You're listening to Revisionist History, 80 00:05:06,716 --> 00:05:14,916 Speaker 1: my podcast about things overlooked and missuno stood. This episode 81 00:05:14,956 --> 00:05:18,476 Speaker 1: is about an audacious experiment conducted at the end of 82 00:05:18,476 --> 00:05:21,036 Speaker 1: the Second World War by one of the most remarkable 83 00:05:21,036 --> 00:05:25,316 Speaker 1: figures in twentieth century science, Ansel Keys. 84 00:05:31,636 --> 00:05:33,596 Speaker 5: So, for purposes of the tape, if you could just 85 00:05:33,636 --> 00:05:37,076 Speaker 5: state your name and the location and date of your birth. 86 00:05:37,836 --> 00:05:41,436 Speaker 6: This is Earl Hackman, living at eight eight eight Hadlai 87 00:05:41,516 --> 00:05:45,036 Speaker 6: and drive in elves And, Illinois, and I was born 88 00:05:45,116 --> 00:05:47,036 Speaker 6: on December one, nineteen eighteen. 89 00:05:48,156 --> 00:05:50,796 Speaker 1: The best record we have of what exactly happened in 90 00:05:50,836 --> 00:05:54,636 Speaker 1: ansel Kes's laboratory is in a box of taped interviews 91 00:05:54,956 --> 00:05:57,516 Speaker 1: stored away in the archives of the Library of Congress. 92 00:05:58,236 --> 00:06:02,036 Speaker 1: Each tape runs roughly two hours in length. They contained 93 00:06:02,036 --> 00:06:06,556 Speaker 1: the recollections of eighteen of ansel Keys's subjects, who sat 94 00:06:06,596 --> 00:06:11,156 Speaker 1: down in their eighties to leave a record of their experience. 95 00:06:12,996 --> 00:06:14,236 Speaker 2: My name is Sam Legg. 96 00:06:14,356 --> 00:06:17,116 Speaker 7: I was born in Hackensack, New Jersey, on November tenth, 97 00:06:17,516 --> 00:06:18,516 Speaker 7: nineteen sixteen. 98 00:06:19,316 --> 00:06:23,996 Speaker 8: Max Campbellman with an M in the middle initial November seventh, 99 00:06:24,076 --> 00:06:24,836 Speaker 8: nineteen twenty. 100 00:06:25,476 --> 00:06:29,476 Speaker 1: The interviews were conducted by two researchers from Johns Hopkins University, 101 00:06:30,036 --> 00:06:34,436 Speaker 1: Richard Semba and Leah kOhm. The tapes were given to 102 00:06:34,476 --> 00:06:37,236 Speaker 1: the library shortly thereafter, where they have sat on a 103 00:06:37,316 --> 00:06:43,236 Speaker 1: shelf ever since, untouched, a forgotten record of eighteen voices 104 00:06:43,476 --> 00:06:46,596 Speaker 1: talking about an experience none of them will ever forget. 105 00:06:47,596 --> 00:06:51,036 Speaker 1: It was known as the Minnesota Starvation Experiment. 106 00:06:54,596 --> 00:06:58,556 Speaker 6: We were in Stadium South Tower, the football stadium. Underneath 107 00:06:58,596 --> 00:07:02,276 Speaker 6: the stadium had quite a complex for research there, and 108 00:07:02,636 --> 00:07:04,836 Speaker 6: there was a dormit. We lived in a dormitory there. 109 00:07:05,676 --> 00:07:11,036 Speaker 6: All the activities at the university we're open to us. 110 00:07:12,476 --> 00:07:15,276 Speaker 1: During their off hours, the men would roam the city. 111 00:07:15,476 --> 00:07:17,876 Speaker 1: People living near the university saw them all the time, 112 00:07:18,236 --> 00:07:21,836 Speaker 1: young men in white shirts and khaki pants, taking long 113 00:07:21,876 --> 00:07:26,396 Speaker 1: walks along the Mississippi, sitting in restaurants, drinking coffee, but 114 00:07:26,596 --> 00:07:31,596 Speaker 1: never eating a thing. The men called themselves the guinea pigs. 115 00:07:33,116 --> 00:07:36,636 Speaker 8: We were all in excellent physical health, and as far 116 00:07:36,716 --> 00:07:39,396 Speaker 8: as as far as they knew, we were all in 117 00:07:39,476 --> 00:07:41,996 Speaker 8: good mental health at the time. We did not stay 118 00:07:42,036 --> 00:07:43,836 Speaker 8: that way during the experiment, but we were. 119 00:07:46,396 --> 00:07:48,676 Speaker 1: You can go to the Library of Congress and listen 120 00:07:48,716 --> 00:07:50,716 Speaker 1: to the tapes in the reading room yourself if you like. 121 00:07:51,556 --> 00:07:54,476 Speaker 1: You might end up wondering what was ansel Keys trying 122 00:07:54,516 --> 00:07:58,156 Speaker 1: to accomplish by putting his subjects through so much? And 123 00:07:58,316 --> 00:07:59,036 Speaker 1: was it worth it? 124 00:08:00,876 --> 00:08:04,236 Speaker 9: When I hear somebody say, oh, I'm simply starved, I 125 00:08:04,276 --> 00:08:08,156 Speaker 9: know they don't know what they're saying, because there's a 126 00:08:08,196 --> 00:08:13,276 Speaker 9: real difference between what your body craves for from Thessouri's 127 00:08:13,316 --> 00:08:17,996 Speaker 9: heals of starvation then what you normally feel as hunger. 128 00:08:20,836 --> 00:08:24,156 Speaker 1: The second episode of this season of Provision's history was 129 00:08:24,156 --> 00:08:26,916 Speaker 1: devoted in large part to the story of the famous 130 00:08:26,956 --> 00:08:30,116 Speaker 1: iodine experiments in Akron, Ohio. During the First World War. 131 00:08:30,756 --> 00:08:33,236 Speaker 1: A doctor named David Marine was trying to figure out 132 00:08:33,356 --> 00:08:37,316 Speaker 1: how to treat goiter, a condition that causes severe enlargement 133 00:08:37,436 --> 00:08:41,196 Speaker 1: of the thyroid gland. Goiter was widespread in the early 134 00:08:41,236 --> 00:08:44,556 Speaker 1: part of the twentieth century. Millions of people walked around 135 00:08:44,596 --> 00:08:48,196 Speaker 1: with baseball sized bulges on their necks. Marine wanted to 136 00:08:48,236 --> 00:08:51,396 Speaker 1: see if regular doses of iodine could solve the problem, 137 00:08:51,716 --> 00:08:54,116 Speaker 1: so he convinced the Akron school board to let him 138 00:08:54,156 --> 00:08:57,916 Speaker 1: run a study on thousands of schoolgirls feeding them regular 139 00:08:57,956 --> 00:09:01,996 Speaker 1: doses of iodine to see if it prevented goiter. Could 140 00:09:01,996 --> 00:09:07,116 Speaker 1: that experiment, I wondered, be conducted today. I called up 141 00:09:07,156 --> 00:09:12,236 Speaker 1: the bioethicist Art Kaplan, who teaches at New York University today. 142 00:09:12,396 --> 00:09:17,636 Speaker 10: To attempt this experiment to prevent goiter would be a 143 00:09:18,156 --> 00:09:23,076 Speaker 10: hugely different experience for that researcher and for the subjects, 144 00:09:23,476 --> 00:09:27,036 Speaker 10: the school board and their families. For one thing, when 145 00:09:27,036 --> 00:09:30,076 Speaker 10: that experiment was done, there were no federal regulations. There 146 00:09:30,156 --> 00:09:34,076 Speaker 10: was no federal oversight of what was going on. 147 00:09:34,636 --> 00:09:39,356 Speaker 1: These days, most experiments involving human subjects are closely regulated. 148 00:09:39,956 --> 00:09:44,116 Speaker 1: They involved consent forms, disclosure statements, the right to drop 149 00:09:44,156 --> 00:09:47,556 Speaker 1: out of a study at any given time. Caplan's point 150 00:09:47,716 --> 00:09:50,876 Speaker 1: was that, compared to today, medical research in the past 151 00:09:51,076 --> 00:09:53,636 Speaker 1: starts to look like the wild West. If you could 152 00:09:53,636 --> 00:09:57,316 Speaker 1: find the money and talk people into participating, off you went. 153 00:10:02,396 --> 00:10:05,916 Speaker 1: In Alabama, between the nineteen thirties and the nineteen seventies, 154 00:10:06,076 --> 00:10:09,796 Speaker 1: the Public Health Service launched the Tuskegee Syphilista, where a 155 00:10:09,796 --> 00:10:12,996 Speaker 1: group of African American men were tricked into signing up 156 00:10:13,156 --> 00:10:15,676 Speaker 1: for what they thought was medical treatment, when in fact 157 00:10:15,836 --> 00:10:18,276 Speaker 1: all the researchers wanted to do was to find out 158 00:10:18,276 --> 00:10:21,236 Speaker 1: what happened when you let untreated syphilis run its course. 159 00:10:22,116 --> 00:10:27,236 Speaker 1: It was maybe the lowest moment in twentieth century American medicine. 160 00:10:27,316 --> 00:10:30,676 Speaker 1: In the early nineteen sixties, the Yale psychologist Stanley Milgram 161 00:10:30,836 --> 00:10:33,276 Speaker 1: ran his infamous Obedient Study two. 162 00:10:33,116 --> 00:10:35,276 Speaker 10: One hundred and eighty five volts. 163 00:10:36,676 --> 00:10:41,276 Speaker 1: Where Milgram deceived otherwise unsuspecting subjects into thinking that they 164 00:10:41,316 --> 00:10:44,916 Speaker 1: were delivering high voltage electric shocks to someone they'd never met. 165 00:10:45,396 --> 00:10:48,276 Speaker 3: I have reduced to ancel anymore, cut me out of 166 00:10:48,276 --> 00:10:49,836 Speaker 3: me who kid al readers cut me. 167 00:10:49,916 --> 00:10:51,716 Speaker 11: Out, keet me out of contending. 168 00:10:51,756 --> 00:10:53,196 Speaker 2: The next word is green played. 169 00:10:53,796 --> 00:10:57,596 Speaker 1: In today's era, the number one consideration in any proposed 170 00:10:57,636 --> 00:11:02,156 Speaker 1: experiment is its effect on a subject. Back then, the 171 00:11:02,276 --> 00:11:05,116 Speaker 1: number one consideration was the value of what you could 172 00:11:05,196 --> 00:11:08,276 Speaker 1: learn from the subject. The subject was thought of like 173 00:11:08,316 --> 00:11:11,836 Speaker 1: a soldier in battle, someone whose well being was secondary 174 00:11:11,876 --> 00:11:12,836 Speaker 1: to the larger cause. 175 00:11:15,196 --> 00:11:18,356 Speaker 4: The answer to the vitamin question is not pill, but 176 00:11:18,556 --> 00:11:22,316 Speaker 4: good food in plenty of variety. According to doctor Key, 177 00:11:23,956 --> 00:11:24,996 Speaker 4: if vitamins. 178 00:11:24,556 --> 00:11:26,716 Speaker 7: Were missing from his food, the soldier might have to 179 00:11:26,716 --> 00:11:28,396 Speaker 7: take concentrated vitamins. 180 00:11:29,436 --> 00:11:31,516 Speaker 4: If he had vitamins but no food. 181 00:11:31,276 --> 00:11:32,356 Speaker 10: He was still starved. 182 00:11:33,716 --> 00:11:36,116 Speaker 5: Best way, naturally is supply vitamins and the food. 183 00:11:37,556 --> 00:11:40,116 Speaker 1: Now, remember the statue of Ansel Keys has attained during 184 00:11:40,116 --> 00:11:43,676 Speaker 1: the Second World War. He's the world's greatest nutrition researcher. 185 00:11:44,356 --> 00:11:47,476 Speaker 1: He's closely involved with the war effort. He just developed 186 00:11:47,476 --> 00:11:50,316 Speaker 1: the k ration to greater claim, and he looks around 187 00:11:50,356 --> 00:11:53,196 Speaker 1: the world that he sees millions of people suffering from 188 00:11:53,236 --> 00:11:58,996 Speaker 1: severe malnutrition. The war disrupted the food supply of entire continents. 189 00:11:59,036 --> 00:12:03,196 Speaker 1: Millions of people were in concentration camps, reduced to skeletons. 190 00:12:03,956 --> 00:12:07,916 Speaker 1: Ansel Keys knew how little his field understood about prolonged malnutrition. 191 00:12:08,836 --> 00:12:11,676 Speaker 1: What was the effect of long term hunger on physical 192 00:12:11,676 --> 00:12:15,596 Speaker 1: well being, on psychological health, and what was the best 193 00:12:15,636 --> 00:12:19,316 Speaker 1: way to bring the undernourished back to health? What was 194 00:12:19,356 --> 00:12:22,836 Speaker 1: more important how much you fed someone or what you 195 00:12:22,956 --> 00:12:31,396 Speaker 1: fed someone. So Keys designs an experiment. He would need 196 00:12:31,636 --> 00:12:35,476 Speaker 1: thirty six subjects for at least a year. The first 197 00:12:35,516 --> 00:12:39,396 Speaker 1: three months would be the control period. Each research subject 198 00:12:39,516 --> 00:12:42,796 Speaker 1: would be stabilized at what Keys estimated to be their 199 00:12:42,916 --> 00:12:48,236 Speaker 1: correct weight, three full meals a day intake matching outtake. Then, 200 00:12:48,516 --> 00:12:53,236 Speaker 1: after stabilization would come six months of severe calorie restriction, 201 00:12:53,796 --> 00:12:56,236 Speaker 1: with the goal that each man losed twenty five percent 202 00:12:56,356 --> 00:13:00,716 Speaker 1: of his ideal weight. Exercise would be mandatory throughout the study, 203 00:13:00,996 --> 00:13:03,516 Speaker 1: twenty two miles a week of walking up and down 204 00:13:03,516 --> 00:13:07,396 Speaker 1: the Mississippi or through downtown Minneapolis, all through the long 205 00:13:07,476 --> 00:13:12,676 Speaker 1: Minnesota winter and through the following summer. Each participant tested 206 00:13:12,796 --> 00:13:17,076 Speaker 1: on a regular basis blood samples, sperm samples, body fat, 207 00:13:17,196 --> 00:13:20,316 Speaker 1: blood volumes. The men would be asked to keep journals 208 00:13:20,476 --> 00:13:24,276 Speaker 1: and record their thoughts and dreams, and then after six 209 00:13:24,316 --> 00:13:28,516 Speaker 1: months of starvation, three months of recovery. The crucial part 210 00:13:29,276 --> 00:13:33,556 Speaker 1: Keys plan to test out different rehabilitation diets with varying 211 00:13:33,596 --> 00:13:41,596 Speaker 1: amounts of calories, protein, and vitamins. The experiment begins on 212 00:13:41,676 --> 00:13:46,156 Speaker 1: November nineteenth, nineteen forty four. Keys gathers his guinea pigs 213 00:13:46,236 --> 00:13:50,236 Speaker 1: at the Laboratory of Physiological Hygiene underneath the football stadium. 214 00:13:50,756 --> 00:13:53,516 Speaker 1: He stands in front of all thirty six and gives 215 00:13:53,556 --> 00:13:55,876 Speaker 1: them a speech. He had stayed up the previous night 216 00:13:56,316 --> 00:13:57,356 Speaker 1: practicing in front. 217 00:13:57,156 --> 00:13:57,676 Speaker 2: Of his wife. 218 00:13:58,516 --> 00:14:01,676 Speaker 1: Quote. We are here because of the problem of relief 219 00:14:01,676 --> 00:14:05,516 Speaker 1: feeding in general, and particularly in the war devastated areas. 220 00:14:05,556 --> 00:14:05,876 Speaker 2: Today. 221 00:14:06,436 --> 00:14:09,956 Speaker 1: You can imagine a moment Keys, the brilliant sign, bringing 222 00:14:09,996 --> 00:14:12,676 Speaker 1: the group of young men before him under his spell. 223 00:14:13,636 --> 00:14:17,156 Speaker 1: Human misery and want are qualities of life which properly 224 00:14:17,196 --> 00:14:22,916 Speaker 1: bring in emotional response. But starvation is quantitative and must 225 00:14:22,956 --> 00:14:28,516 Speaker 1: be met with quantitative answers. Grand words tailor made for 226 00:14:28,596 --> 00:14:31,836 Speaker 1: men of idealism, eager for a chance to serve their country. 227 00:14:32,756 --> 00:14:36,956 Speaker 1: And then are you ready to begin? And a deafening 228 00:14:37,076 --> 00:14:37,756 Speaker 1: cheer goes. 229 00:14:37,636 --> 00:14:59,796 Speaker 12: Up when we start this experiment. We were all given 230 00:14:59,836 --> 00:15:00,876 Speaker 12: the same amount of proof. 231 00:15:02,236 --> 00:15:04,916 Speaker 1: Listening to the oral histories from the veterans of the 232 00:15:04,916 --> 00:15:08,436 Speaker 1: Minnesota Starvation experiment is a strange experience. 233 00:15:09,116 --> 00:15:12,596 Speaker 12: We had six slices of bread. They take away two 234 00:15:12,636 --> 00:15:17,676 Speaker 12: slices and four slices six slices, and if you still 235 00:15:17,676 --> 00:15:21,236 Speaker 12: didn't lose weight, then they just started taking away your potato. 236 00:15:23,436 --> 00:15:25,436 Speaker 1: The men are all at the end of their lives. 237 00:15:25,956 --> 00:15:29,716 Speaker 1: Nearly sixty years have passed since the experiment ended. But 238 00:15:29,876 --> 00:15:32,756 Speaker 1: rarely do any of them say I don't remember or 239 00:15:32,956 --> 00:15:37,436 Speaker 1: I don't know. They know, and they remember, and their 240 00:15:37,436 --> 00:15:41,436 Speaker 1: memories are precise. In fact, it seems like they'd been 241 00:15:41,476 --> 00:15:44,276 Speaker 1: reliving the long year between the fall of nineteen forty 242 00:15:44,276 --> 00:15:47,676 Speaker 1: four and the fall of nineteen forty five ever since. 243 00:15:52,276 --> 00:15:55,036 Speaker 5: Do you remember what your lowest weight got down to? 244 00:15:57,556 --> 00:16:00,396 Speaker 2: One hundred and thirty four? 245 00:16:00,556 --> 00:16:04,516 Speaker 5: I believe what was sort of your standard weight entering. 246 00:16:07,276 --> 00:16:10,636 Speaker 2: I went in at two twenty and they they do 247 00:16:11,396 --> 00:16:12,956 Speaker 2: standardized me down till. 248 00:16:12,796 --> 00:16:17,596 Speaker 6: One to eighty before the real experiment began, So I 249 00:16:17,636 --> 00:16:18,916 Speaker 6: got down to one thirty four. 250 00:16:20,356 --> 00:16:23,596 Speaker 1: The thirty six subjects started the experiment with high hopes. 251 00:16:24,316 --> 00:16:27,156 Speaker 1: Keys had arranged for them to take classes at the university. 252 00:16:27,636 --> 00:16:31,396 Speaker 1: The men themselves organized dramatic productions and planned to hold 253 00:16:31,556 --> 00:16:35,756 Speaker 1: educational seminars. Many wanted to prepare themselves for relief work 254 00:16:36,076 --> 00:16:39,836 Speaker 1: after the war was over. In the recruitment leaflet Keys 255 00:16:39,876 --> 00:16:44,356 Speaker 1: sent out, he mentioned the intriguing possibilities in the fact 256 00:16:44,356 --> 00:16:47,636 Speaker 1: that there was an all women's dormitory nearby for those, 257 00:16:47,836 --> 00:16:50,516 Speaker 1: as he put it, who wanted to be a guinea 258 00:16:50,516 --> 00:16:53,036 Speaker 1: pig by day and a wolf by night. 259 00:17:00,436 --> 00:17:03,276 Speaker 5: What happened after once the semi servation started. 260 00:17:03,596 --> 00:17:07,556 Speaker 8: Things went downhill very fast, well, not real fast. It 261 00:17:07,636 --> 00:17:12,196 Speaker 8: didn't seem much change at first, But when we got 262 00:17:12,196 --> 00:17:16,156 Speaker 8: down to the place where we really knew what the 263 00:17:16,156 --> 00:17:17,076 Speaker 8: word hunger meant. 264 00:17:17,636 --> 00:17:18,876 Speaker 13: Instead of just saying. 265 00:17:18,756 --> 00:17:22,236 Speaker 8: I'm hungry, let's go eat, which isn't the word hunger, 266 00:17:22,436 --> 00:17:24,996 Speaker 8: I mean, it's a different different. When we really felt 267 00:17:24,996 --> 00:17:33,156 Speaker 8: pains of hunger and we began thinking about food most 268 00:17:33,156 --> 00:17:37,036 Speaker 8: of the time, and so forth, we began to be 269 00:17:37,156 --> 00:17:38,156 Speaker 8: more and more irritable. 270 00:17:39,556 --> 00:17:42,756 Speaker 1: After the three months of initial rigor, while they stabilized 271 00:17:42,756 --> 00:17:47,196 Speaker 1: their weight, the severe calorie restrictions kicked in. Everyone now 272 00:17:47,276 --> 00:17:51,516 Speaker 1: got just two meals a day cabbage, potatoes, bread slices, 273 00:17:51,956 --> 00:17:56,116 Speaker 1: ruda begas, and occasional treats of macaroni and cheese. 274 00:17:56,796 --> 00:17:59,196 Speaker 8: I was one of the few, now I shouldn't say few. 275 00:17:59,236 --> 00:18:04,636 Speaker 8: I was one of the many that metally was transfixed 276 00:18:04,676 --> 00:18:08,356 Speaker 8: on cookbooks, and I collected probably one hundred cooks and books. 277 00:18:08,436 --> 00:18:09,956 Speaker 2: I would read. 278 00:18:09,716 --> 00:18:12,116 Speaker 8: Cook books like you would read readers digest. 279 00:18:13,076 --> 00:18:15,756 Speaker 1: Some of the men would walk into Minneapolis, sit in 280 00:18:15,796 --> 00:18:19,316 Speaker 1: restaurants and watch other people lead the way they might 281 00:18:19,356 --> 00:18:21,876 Speaker 1: have once gone to a concert or watched a play. 282 00:18:22,836 --> 00:18:26,516 Speaker 1: They dreamt about food, They argued about food. At meal times, 283 00:18:26,756 --> 00:18:28,476 Speaker 1: they fixated on their plates. 284 00:18:28,956 --> 00:18:32,596 Speaker 13: I mean we would lick the plates, really and I remember. 285 00:18:32,316 --> 00:18:34,476 Speaker 5: Well, I heard that a bit of that caused a 286 00:18:34,476 --> 00:18:35,116 Speaker 5: bit of tension. 287 00:18:35,836 --> 00:18:40,116 Speaker 13: I think it did, particularly abling for instance, one of 288 00:18:40,156 --> 00:18:42,996 Speaker 13: the first that I saw doing that, and that's disgusting. 289 00:18:43,756 --> 00:18:51,276 Speaker 13: I'm pretty sud I were doing it myself, so oh yeah, 290 00:18:51,556 --> 00:18:54,516 Speaker 13: I mean I just just thought, this is that you 291 00:18:54,556 --> 00:18:57,956 Speaker 13: would actually degrade yourself to the extent of licking a plate, 292 00:18:58,196 --> 00:19:01,916 Speaker 13: kid me a break, and that we were all looking at. 293 00:19:04,756 --> 00:19:07,596 Speaker 1: Coffee was one of the few indulgences they were allowed, 294 00:19:07,796 --> 00:19:11,356 Speaker 1: so they drank it to excess, twelve eighteen cups a day. 295 00:19:11,636 --> 00:19:15,156 Speaker 1: They chewed enormous amounts of bubblegum. They began souping their 296 00:19:15,196 --> 00:19:18,116 Speaker 1: meals their word for adding water to everything they were 297 00:19:18,116 --> 00:19:21,396 Speaker 1: given to create the sense that their portions were bigger. 298 00:19:22,556 --> 00:19:24,356 Speaker 1: One of the men took a date to see to 299 00:19:24,476 --> 00:19:28,436 Speaker 1: Have and Have Not, starring Humphrey Bogart and Lauren Bacall. 300 00:19:29,196 --> 00:19:32,396 Speaker 13: I'm sorry, Slim, but I still say you're awful good 301 00:19:32,396 --> 00:19:33,276 Speaker 13: And I wouldn't. 302 00:19:32,956 --> 00:19:36,556 Speaker 5: Oh, I forgot. You wouldn't take anything from anybody, would you. 303 00:19:36,796 --> 00:19:37,276 Speaker 2: That's right? 304 00:19:37,876 --> 00:19:41,036 Speaker 1: One of the great romantic dramas of the Warriors. But 305 00:19:41,076 --> 00:19:44,756 Speaker 1: he couldn't concentrate except for the part where Bogart goes 306 00:19:44,796 --> 00:19:45,476 Speaker 1: to a restaurant. 307 00:19:46,316 --> 00:19:50,116 Speaker 9: And if you went to a movie, you weren't particularly 308 00:19:50,116 --> 00:19:52,836 Speaker 9: interested in a lot of scenes, but you noticed every 309 00:19:52,876 --> 00:19:54,116 Speaker 9: time they ate and what they ate. 310 00:19:55,356 --> 00:19:58,596 Speaker 1: During the long starvation phase, Keys began to lose some 311 00:19:58,676 --> 00:20:01,836 Speaker 1: of his subjects. One of them went walking through down 312 00:20:01,916 --> 00:20:06,236 Speaker 1: to Minneapolis, and suddenly his resolve broke. He'd been having 313 00:20:06,316 --> 00:20:11,476 Speaker 1: dreams of cannibalism. He went into seventeen different soda fountains 314 00:20:11,916 --> 00:20:14,236 Speaker 1: and gulp down a milkshake at each one. 315 00:20:15,756 --> 00:20:19,916 Speaker 12: After that, we could not go out without a buddy, 316 00:20:20,476 --> 00:20:23,196 Speaker 12: and if we had a girlfriend, we could bring the 317 00:20:23,236 --> 00:20:27,516 Speaker 12: girlfriend in. The doctors would interview the girl and go 318 00:20:27,756 --> 00:20:31,516 Speaker 12: care So when we were on a date to your buddy. 319 00:20:32,596 --> 00:20:36,836 Speaker 1: Finally, after six months of starvation recovery. 320 00:20:36,916 --> 00:20:38,916 Speaker 5: On the final day, when you were able to finally 321 00:20:38,916 --> 00:20:40,476 Speaker 5: break what, do you remember what you did? 322 00:20:41,316 --> 00:20:48,756 Speaker 9: Yes, they did a big breakfast for us, and that 323 00:20:49,716 --> 00:20:53,036 Speaker 9: most of us stuffed ourselves. And then I think I 324 00:20:53,076 --> 00:20:57,036 Speaker 9: went downtown in one restaurant and went and ate another meal, 325 00:20:57,116 --> 00:20:59,196 Speaker 9: and then got out and went to another one. And 326 00:21:01,396 --> 00:21:05,836 Speaker 9: just I mean, one couldn't satisfy your craving for food 327 00:21:05,836 --> 00:21:08,636 Speaker 9: by filling up your stomach. Many of us, I think 328 00:21:08,716 --> 00:21:14,356 Speaker 9: did unreasonable things. I was invited out for I think 329 00:21:14,356 --> 00:21:17,476 Speaker 9: a Swiss steak dinner, and though I was filled to 330 00:21:17,556 --> 00:21:21,996 Speaker 9: the brim, I went and stuff a little bit more 331 00:21:22,636 --> 00:21:26,436 Speaker 9: in on top, and then got on a bus writing 332 00:21:27,036 --> 00:21:32,836 Speaker 9: back to the to the stadium and jostling up and 333 00:21:32,876 --> 00:21:35,476 Speaker 9: down on the All of a sudden I lost it all. 334 00:21:36,356 --> 00:21:39,596 Speaker 9: Now I got off at the next time. I felt 335 00:21:39,596 --> 00:21:42,036 Speaker 9: sorry for the guy that was going to have to 336 00:21:42,076 --> 00:21:45,476 Speaker 9: clean it up, but I didn't stay around. 337 00:21:52,476 --> 00:21:56,356 Speaker 1: In nineteen fifty five, years after the study ended, Keys 338 00:21:56,436 --> 00:22:01,516 Speaker 1: published The Biology of Human Starvation, his landmark two volume 339 00:22:01,556 --> 00:22:05,596 Speaker 1: account of what was learned during the study. To this day. 340 00:22:06,156 --> 00:22:10,276 Speaker 1: That book helps doctors understand everything from in relief to 341 00:22:10,356 --> 00:22:15,156 Speaker 1: eating disorders. If you've ever used the terms metabolism, intimate 342 00:22:15,236 --> 00:22:18,716 Speaker 1: and fasting, calories in and calories out, then you're talking 343 00:22:18,716 --> 00:22:22,996 Speaker 1: about concepts that go back to the Keys experiment. Ansel 344 00:22:23,076 --> 00:22:26,756 Speaker 1: Keys did exactly what he set out to do, but 345 00:22:26,836 --> 00:22:30,516 Speaker 1: his subjects they were soldiers in a battle whose well 346 00:22:30,556 --> 00:22:35,436 Speaker 1: being was secondary to the larger cause. Years later, the 347 00:22:35,476 --> 00:22:39,956 Speaker 1: subjects of the starvation experiment gathered for a reunion. Ansel Keys, 348 00:22:40,436 --> 00:22:43,836 Speaker 1: by then an old man, addressed the group. Someone asked 349 00:22:43,916 --> 00:22:46,436 Speaker 1: him did he think the benefits of what was learned 350 00:22:46,836 --> 00:22:48,996 Speaker 1: were greater than the costs of what the men went through? 351 00:22:49,636 --> 00:22:51,076 Speaker 1: He looked out at all the men in front of 352 00:22:51,156 --> 00:23:08,836 Speaker 1: him and said, well, you're all here, aren't you. Out 353 00:23:08,876 --> 00:23:10,676 Speaker 1: Of all all the interviews in the box of tapes 354 00:23:10,716 --> 00:23:14,796 Speaker 1: at the Library of Congress, one stands out the testimony 355 00:23:14,796 --> 00:23:17,676 Speaker 1: of a man named Sam Legg. His father was a 356 00:23:17,676 --> 00:23:20,956 Speaker 1: stockbroker in New York City. Sam went to the elite 357 00:23:20,996 --> 00:23:23,556 Speaker 1: Saint Paul's private school in New Hampshire and then on 358 00:23:23,636 --> 00:23:26,956 Speaker 1: to Yale. Sam Legg was someone the other guinea pigs 359 00:23:26,956 --> 00:23:30,436 Speaker 1: looked up to, that is until his behavior took a 360 00:23:30,476 --> 00:23:34,836 Speaker 1: sharp turn during the six month starvation period. His moods 361 00:23:34,876 --> 00:23:37,996 Speaker 1: began to swing back and forth. Like many others, he 362 00:23:38,036 --> 00:23:42,836 Speaker 1: got obsessed with cookbooks, but his obsession was pronounced. He 363 00:23:42,876 --> 00:23:46,236 Speaker 1: took to eating in the corner by himself. The historian 364 00:23:46,316 --> 00:23:50,116 Speaker 1: Todd Tucker interviewed Leg for his book The Great Starvation Experiment. 365 00:23:50,636 --> 00:23:54,396 Speaker 1: He writes about the way Legs started to eat. He 366 00:23:54,556 --> 00:23:57,276 Speaker 1: combined all the food on his tray into one pile. 367 00:23:57,996 --> 00:24:00,956 Speaker 1: He then took his fork and stirred it and mashed 368 00:24:00,956 --> 00:24:04,996 Speaker 1: it altogether, the thimblefuls of fish, chowder, spaghetti, peas, and 369 00:24:05,036 --> 00:24:09,116 Speaker 1: potatoes until it was a homogeneous, dark gray greenish page 370 00:24:09,356 --> 00:24:13,236 Speaker 1: on his plate. He then salted and peppered the amalgamation 371 00:24:13,676 --> 00:24:17,036 Speaker 1: until it was crusted with seasoning. When he had scraped 372 00:24:17,076 --> 00:24:20,236 Speaker 1: every morsel off his plate, he then picked it up 373 00:24:20,596 --> 00:24:24,116 Speaker 1: and licked it noisily until not a molecule of food remained. 374 00:24:25,116 --> 00:24:28,436 Speaker 1: The slurping noise was so loud it made the other 375 00:24:28,516 --> 00:24:34,676 Speaker 1: men WinCE. In his oral history interview, Leg talks about 376 00:24:34,876 --> 00:24:38,596 Speaker 1: how during the starvation phase he felt his character start 377 00:24:38,636 --> 00:24:39,316 Speaker 1: to slip away. 378 00:24:39,916 --> 00:24:42,436 Speaker 2: I'll tell you a nasty moment. 379 00:24:42,716 --> 00:24:45,796 Speaker 7: I was walking along and I obviously had a buddy, 380 00:24:45,836 --> 00:24:46,716 Speaker 7: but I don't know who it was. 381 00:24:48,316 --> 00:24:58,516 Speaker 2: And it was deep into the semi starvation, and we 382 00:24:58,516 --> 00:24:59,596 Speaker 2: were tired. 383 00:25:00,636 --> 00:25:03,116 Speaker 1: When they crossed the street, they didn't have the energy 384 00:25:03,116 --> 00:25:05,116 Speaker 1: to take the half step up onto the sidewalk. 385 00:25:05,476 --> 00:25:09,276 Speaker 2: We were tired and weak and so well. 386 00:25:09,436 --> 00:25:12,876 Speaker 7: We were standing at a corner waiting for a light 387 00:25:12,996 --> 00:25:15,436 Speaker 7: or something, and a kid came along on a bicycle 388 00:25:16,716 --> 00:25:19,676 Speaker 7: and he was really moving, pumping away and going to shoot. 389 00:25:20,996 --> 00:25:22,796 Speaker 7: I said, I wonder where he's going. And then I 390 00:25:22,796 --> 00:25:25,796 Speaker 7: said said to myself, I know where he's going. He's 391 00:25:25,836 --> 00:25:31,436 Speaker 7: going home for supper, and I'm not. And then, for 392 00:25:31,596 --> 00:25:34,876 Speaker 7: a very brief I hope it was brief moment, I 393 00:25:34,916 --> 00:25:41,476 Speaker 7: suddenly hated that that boy, and that I hate at 394 00:25:41,476 --> 00:25:46,036 Speaker 7: this point to tell you this because it doesn't speak 395 00:25:46,156 --> 00:25:51,436 Speaker 7: very well for me, but I I have remembered it 396 00:25:51,556 --> 00:25:58,836 Speaker 7: with I guess horror that that I could feel such 397 00:25:58,876 --> 00:26:04,756 Speaker 7: a thing so utterly irrational, But there was, and uh, 398 00:26:04,796 --> 00:26:07,916 Speaker 7: you ask an experience that I remember. I sure remember that. 399 00:26:13,276 --> 00:26:16,876 Speaker 1: The interview is almost over. Just one final question. 400 00:26:19,036 --> 00:26:22,396 Speaker 5: Is there anything that we haven't talked about or that 401 00:26:22,716 --> 00:26:25,076 Speaker 5: I should have asked you or you'd like to add 402 00:26:25,636 --> 00:26:26,516 Speaker 5: that seems all of them. 403 00:26:27,116 --> 00:26:29,596 Speaker 2: He should have asked me why I'm missing fingers on 404 00:26:29,676 --> 00:26:30,356 Speaker 2: my left hand. 405 00:26:31,116 --> 00:26:32,436 Speaker 5: Okay. 406 00:26:33,236 --> 00:26:39,756 Speaker 7: I keep saying to myself that this was because I 407 00:26:39,996 --> 00:26:44,116 Speaker 7: was so weak and I was chopping wood, and I 408 00:26:44,236 --> 00:26:49,836 Speaker 7: got the acts caught up in a tree, and I 409 00:26:49,876 --> 00:26:53,476 Speaker 7: didn't have a rapid enough reaction time to pull my 410 00:26:53,556 --> 00:26:56,636 Speaker 7: hand away, so I removed some fingers. 411 00:26:58,356 --> 00:27:00,636 Speaker 1: He was at the house of two elderly ladies in 412 00:27:00,636 --> 00:27:04,436 Speaker 1: Minneapolis who had befriended some of the subjects. Leg and 413 00:27:04,476 --> 00:27:06,796 Speaker 1: his buddy would go and watch the women eat, then 414 00:27:06,836 --> 00:27:09,756 Speaker 1: go outside to split wood to steal themselves against the 415 00:27:09,796 --> 00:27:12,116 Speaker 1: temptation to take any of the women's food. 416 00:27:12,876 --> 00:27:16,956 Speaker 7: I recognized that a human being can go through a 417 00:27:16,996 --> 00:27:18,996 Speaker 7: period of mental illness. 418 00:27:19,716 --> 00:27:21,036 Speaker 2: I think I was mentally ill. 419 00:27:22,276 --> 00:27:24,756 Speaker 7: Was I mentally ill at the time that I removed 420 00:27:24,756 --> 00:27:27,996 Speaker 7: the fingers, I don't know. 421 00:27:28,916 --> 00:27:31,236 Speaker 2: I like to think that I wasn't. I like to 422 00:27:31,236 --> 00:27:32,396 Speaker 2: think it was an accident. 423 00:27:33,516 --> 00:27:37,196 Speaker 7: I'm not going to sit here and categorically say that 424 00:27:37,236 --> 00:27:38,556 Speaker 7: I didn't do it on purpose. 425 00:27:40,836 --> 00:27:43,796 Speaker 1: Leg was rushed to the hospital. Hansel keyes heard the 426 00:27:43,796 --> 00:27:47,276 Speaker 1: news and came straight to his bedside. Leg looked like 427 00:27:47,316 --> 00:27:51,556 Speaker 1: a concentration camp survivor. His eyes had changed color, a 428 00:27:51,636 --> 00:27:54,876 Speaker 1: strange side effect of deprivation that was common among the men. 429 00:27:55,516 --> 00:27:58,836 Speaker 1: His corneas were a hard, brilliant white, the color of 430 00:27:58,836 --> 00:28:02,756 Speaker 1: gleaming teeth. His skin was like flaky tree bark. His 431 00:28:02,916 --> 00:28:07,236 Speaker 1: hand was a bloody mess. I'm quoting now from Tucker's account. 432 00:28:08,556 --> 00:28:11,076 Speaker 1: Is there anything I can do for you, Sam asked 433 00:28:11,076 --> 00:28:15,996 Speaker 1: doctor Keys. Yes, said Sam. Keys leaned closer to hear. 434 00:28:17,356 --> 00:28:21,316 Speaker 1: Keep being the experiment, he said, Sam. I'm afraid I 435 00:28:21,356 --> 00:28:23,756 Speaker 1: can't keep you in, said Keys. You need rest and 436 00:28:23,836 --> 00:28:26,716 Speaker 1: decent meals. The two of them went back and forth, 437 00:28:27,316 --> 00:28:31,116 Speaker 1: and Leg said Doctor He said, his voice still hoarse 438 00:28:31,156 --> 00:28:34,756 Speaker 1: and quiet. For the rest of my life, people are 439 00:28:34,796 --> 00:28:36,516 Speaker 1: going to ask me what I did during the war. 440 00:28:37,596 --> 00:28:40,956 Speaker 1: This experiment is my chance to give an honorable answer 441 00:28:41,036 --> 00:28:49,196 Speaker 1: to that question. And so for the next five days, 442 00:28:49,476 --> 00:28:52,556 Speaker 1: until Leg was released from the hospital, they brought him 443 00:28:52,556 --> 00:28:56,196 Speaker 1: his meals from the laboratory kitchen in a cardboard takeout box, 444 00:28:56,876 --> 00:29:00,476 Speaker 1: because of course, he couldn't eat the hospital food. That 445 00:29:00,716 --> 00:29:05,596 Speaker 1: would be cheating. Could Ansel Keys do that experiment today? 446 00:29:06,556 --> 00:29:10,636 Speaker 1: I asked the atheicist Art Captain about Keys's experiment. Kaplan 447 00:29:10,716 --> 00:29:12,916 Speaker 1: knew the story well, he taught for years at the 448 00:29:12,996 --> 00:29:14,076 Speaker 1: University of Minnesota. 449 00:29:14,756 --> 00:29:19,956 Speaker 10: Putting people on starvation diets, having them run around a 450 00:29:20,036 --> 00:29:27,436 Speaker 10: city Minneapolis, being confronted with food everywhere, having them stressed out. 451 00:29:27,956 --> 00:29:28,956 Speaker 10: Not a chance. 452 00:29:33,716 --> 00:29:38,076 Speaker 1: The Minnesota Starvation experiment, or any experiment like it, could 453 00:29:38,236 --> 00:29:42,796 Speaker 1: never be repeated today. In the next episode of Revisionist History, 454 00:29:42,956 --> 00:30:01,036 Speaker 1: we ask, are we sure that's a good thing? Revisionist 455 00:30:01,036 --> 00:30:04,756 Speaker 1: History is produced by Elouise Linton, Leeman Gestu, and Jacob Smith, 456 00:30:05,156 --> 00:30:09,076 Speaker 1: with Tlly Emlin and Harrison VJ. Choi. Our editor is 457 00:30:09,236 --> 00:30:13,476 Speaker 1: Julia Barton. Our executive producer is mie La Belle. Original 458 00:30:13,516 --> 00:30:17,476 Speaker 1: scoring by Luis Karra, mastering by Jean Williams, and engineering 459 00:30:17,516 --> 00:30:21,636 Speaker 1: by Nina Lawrence. Beth Johnson is our fact checker. Special 460 00:30:21,676 --> 00:30:24,356 Speaker 1: thanks to Todd Tucker go read his book The Great 461 00:30:24,396 --> 00:30:28,076 Speaker 1: Starvation Experiment, Hansel Keys and The Men Who Starve for 462 00:30:28,196 --> 00:30:32,916 Speaker 1: Science Special. Thanks also to Ariela Markowitz for production help 463 00:30:32,956 --> 00:30:34,836 Speaker 1: on this episode. 464 00:30:35,476 --> 00:30:55,916 Speaker 11: I'm Malcolm Glaba much about Connectur. 465 00:30:56,916 --> 00:31:03,716 Speaker 1: I mean, if you target towns and cities, it's as 466 00:31:03,756 --> 00:31:09,356 Speaker 1: clear as day that there will be civilian victims. Teen 467 00:31:09,396 --> 00:31:13,036 Speaker 1: forty five the US firebomb Tokyo, destroying a quarter of 468 00:31:13,116 --> 00:31:15,876 Speaker 1: the city and killing more than a hundred thousand people. 469 00:31:17,196 --> 00:31:20,796 Speaker 1: I wrote about this infamous bombing campaign in my audiobook 470 00:31:20,996 --> 00:31:23,796 Speaker 1: The Bomber Mafia, and one of the survivor's voices we 471 00:31:23,876 --> 00:31:28,676 Speaker 1: Hear is from a project called Paper City. Paper City 472 00:31:28,796 --> 00:31:33,676 Speaker 1: is now out as a groundbreaking feature documentary director Adrian 473 00:31:33,716 --> 00:31:38,076 Speaker 1: Francis explores what we choose to remember and hope to forget. 474 00:31:39,356 --> 00:31:43,876 Speaker 1: To find out more, visit papercityfilm dot com and follow 475 00:31:44,236 --> 00:31:50,596 Speaker 1: at paper City Tokyo on social media.