1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,119 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A 4 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:24,840 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Welcome back 5 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:27,760 Speaker 1: to the show. My name is Matt Our compatriot knoll 6 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:30,960 Speaker 1: Is on Adventures they called me Ben. We are joined 7 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:34,360 Speaker 1: as always with our super producer Paul Mission controlled decands. 8 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:37,840 Speaker 1: Most importantly, you are you. You are here, and that 9 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:41,559 Speaker 1: makes this stuff they don't want you to know a 10 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:45,360 Speaker 1: pretty the gory, grim episode for us today. Man, Yeah, 11 00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:47,599 Speaker 1: let's go ahead and put this warning up here right now. 12 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:50,959 Speaker 1: We're going to be discussing some things that you may 13 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 1: not want to hear, especially if you dislike murder, sometimes, dismemberment, 14 00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:03,480 Speaker 1: sometimes torture, all kinds of things that make me squeamish. 15 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:05,880 Speaker 1: So if you feel that way, go ahead and turn 16 00:01:05,920 --> 00:01:09,360 Speaker 1: back now. If you're if you're in the middle of 17 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:13,000 Speaker 1: eating something and you have a somewhat delicate stomach, perhaps 18 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:16,440 Speaker 1: it's time to put this on pause and finish your case, 19 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:20,440 Speaker 1: idea or your thuh whatever. Even if you find yourself, 20 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:22,880 Speaker 1: I don't know, in the backyard with a glass of 21 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:27,080 Speaker 1: wine building a fountain. Uh, just you know, just know 22 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:31,080 Speaker 1: that this one's a little messed up. Serial killers, Matt, Yeah, 23 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:36,360 Speaker 1: serial killers. We've explored their lives, their methods, and their 24 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:40,319 Speaker 1: attempts to evade justice, and you know, most disturbingly, the 25 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:42,640 Speaker 1: tragedies they leave behind in their way. We've done this 26 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 1: on multiple episodes, sometimes focusing on general tendencies, sometimes focusing 27 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:53,960 Speaker 1: on specific individuals. In an earlier episode, we trace the 28 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 1: evolution of the term serial killer from its initial roots 29 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:01,680 Speaker 1: and it's not it's not a old term spoiler alert 30 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:05,080 Speaker 1: to the modern day, along with the changing and at 31 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 1: times controversial definitions involved. Usually when we talk about serial 32 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:17,639 Speaker 1: murderers on this show, we are talking about what. Let's see, 33 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 1: we've done a three part series on serial killers who 34 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:26,480 Speaker 1: are never apprehended. We've done we've done some looks at 35 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:31,200 Speaker 1: cults that incorporated serial killing, some human sacrifice and so 36 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:34,440 Speaker 1: one a couple of individual ones like the original night 37 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:41,280 Speaker 1: Stalker or what is it, the Golden State Killer. Yes, yeah, 38 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 1: that's a bit of good news, right, Golden State Killer 39 00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:50,680 Speaker 1: was finally apprehended, was that, yes, lash or well yes, 40 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:56,399 Speaker 1: end of last year. And when we look into these cases, 41 00:02:56,600 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 1: we're typically exploring things in the modern day or in 42 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 1: the recent past, because for most of us, especially here 43 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:10,320 Speaker 1: in the West, when we think of serial killers, we 44 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:15,600 Speaker 1: generally tend to think of things that happened in the 45 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 1: twentieth century, maybe a little bit in the nineteenth century, 46 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:26,679 Speaker 1: but primarily it goes back to about that. And now 47 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:29,880 Speaker 1: we're going to explore something different today. We are looking 48 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:35,960 Speaker 1: into the past to search for the first recorded serial killers, 49 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 1: if we could find those, uh, the ancient murderers, the 50 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 1: murderers of old, the ones who existed before the term 51 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 1: serial killer was ever invented. And to do that we 52 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 1: first have to we first have to explain what we 53 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:54,600 Speaker 1: mean when we say serial killer. Right, that's right. Here 54 00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:58,120 Speaker 1: are the facts. Oh hey, it sounds so hokey when 55 00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:02,200 Speaker 1: I say it. I'm sorry, everybody, but here are the facts. 56 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 1: So a serial killer, at the most basic level, uh 57 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:09,760 Speaker 1: is it can be described or is categorized by the 58 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:13,320 Speaker 1: manner in which they kill someone. Uh and along with 59 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:16,800 Speaker 1: the the amount they kill someone, like the frequency in 60 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:19,480 Speaker 1: which they do this act. And according to the FBI, 61 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 1: we've used them as our source before to discuss what 62 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:25,520 Speaker 1: a serial killer is. Um. According to the FBI, serial 63 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:28,440 Speaker 1: killer is someone who commits at least three murders over 64 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 1: the span of a month, and then there's always some 65 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:35,719 Speaker 1: some form of cooling down period, generally an emotional cooling 66 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:40,000 Speaker 1: down period in between those murders and those deaths. So 67 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:45,880 Speaker 1: this really sets them apart from say a UH spree killer, 68 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:49,039 Speaker 1: someone who kills a large amount of people over a 69 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:53,920 Speaker 1: short time span, or a soldier in battle who um 70 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:57,119 Speaker 1: takes lives because it's part of their mission and job 71 00:04:57,320 --> 00:05:02,040 Speaker 1: to do so. UM and impetu killer, it's that that 72 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 1: type of killer. So okay, let's put it this way. 73 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:09,719 Speaker 1: A spree killer has the potential of killing more people 74 00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:14,000 Speaker 1: generally UH in the span of you know, a day 75 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:17,120 Speaker 1: or a week or something like that. Then perhaps a 76 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:19,800 Speaker 1: serial killer who kills even over the course of a 77 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:22,919 Speaker 1: year um or at least there's a potential there. So 78 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:26,400 Speaker 1: it's not just sheer numbers, it's how they kill, right, 79 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:33,520 Speaker 1: And serial killers will often be differentiated from other uh 80 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:39,640 Speaker 1: other individuals who murder multiple people in that they tend 81 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:43,599 Speaker 1: to have they tend to have patterns of some sort, 82 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:49,240 Speaker 1: whether it is the um perceived commonality of their victims, 83 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 1: by which we mean something that the killer themselves sees 84 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 1: in these victims that makes them all qualify as prey 85 00:05:57,120 --> 00:06:02,560 Speaker 1: or whether it's the method of a side that they employ. 86 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:07,120 Speaker 1: So you can see how there are some important distinctions here. 87 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:15,600 Speaker 1: How many of these individuals are alive or uncaught today. 88 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:17,720 Speaker 1: Every time we look at this we run into an 89 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:23,359 Speaker 1: unsurprising but unpleasant lack of evidence. The current estimates on 90 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:27,919 Speaker 1: serial killer numbers you see, are woefully vague, and the 91 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:33,000 Speaker 1: people who have attempted to, you know, attempted to gut 92 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:36,840 Speaker 1: estimate the number of unapprehended serial killers or murderers at 93 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:40,600 Speaker 1: large always walk away with a wide range of numbers. 94 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:43,680 Speaker 1: We're going to give you a couple just to set 95 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:48,160 Speaker 1: up some bookends here. Thomas Hargrove Sky, who founded the 96 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:53,000 Speaker 1: Murder Accountability Project, And according to Hargrove and his research, 97 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 1: there are as many as two thousand serial killers at 98 00:06:57,640 --> 00:07:01,440 Speaker 1: large as of twenty eighteen in the US or at 99 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:05,279 Speaker 1: least in the Anglo sphere. Wow. That's a high number. 100 00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:09,320 Speaker 1: Uh wow uh. And how did he get to that number? 101 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:13,240 Speaker 1: That's one of the big questions here. And really he 102 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 1: started by asking contacts that he had with the Federal 103 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:19,560 Speaker 1: Bureau of Investigation asked them to calculate how many unsolved 104 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 1: murders are linked to at least one other murder through 105 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 1: DNA on the FBI's database. So there you go already, 106 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:32,880 Speaker 1: because they determined that about four murders, or roughly two 107 00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 1: percent of those, like, of all the murders within that 108 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:40,200 Speaker 1: database met the classification of being connected to at least 109 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:46,480 Speaker 1: one other um that's already pretty disturbing. But you know, 110 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:48,520 Speaker 1: if you look, if you look at the fact that 111 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:51,840 Speaker 1: not all murder cases actually involve any kind of evidence 112 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:55,360 Speaker 1: of the d NA sort at least and not all 113 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:58,200 Speaker 1: cases are even reported to the FBI, so that two 114 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 1: percent is a pretty low stamate. So then Hargrove went 115 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:04,760 Speaker 1: through and he said, okay, well, let's uh, let's add up. 116 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:07,960 Speaker 1: Let's round it up to two thousand, just as a 117 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:12,680 Speaker 1: a measure of what he believes could be closer. And 118 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 1: that's because he continued looking. Right, he said, there are 119 00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:21,040 Speaker 1: more than two hundred and twenty thousand unsolved murders just 120 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:24,920 Speaker 1: since nine. So when we put that in perspective, he asked, 121 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:27,360 Speaker 1: how shocking is it that there are at least two 122 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 1: thousand unrecognized series of homicides. There's an important note here. 123 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:37,840 Speaker 1: So earlier, Matt, you had you had broken down the 124 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:41,200 Speaker 1: FBI definition of serial killer for US, and that's three 125 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:44,440 Speaker 1: or more murders right with a cooling off period. The 126 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:48,320 Speaker 1: thing about heart Grove study is that he only required 127 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:51,840 Speaker 1: a person to have killed two other people. So what 128 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:55,480 Speaker 1: happens when we stick to the definition of three murders 129 00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:59,000 Speaker 1: per killer. That's when we run into Kenna Quinnett, a 130 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:04,160 Speaker 1: criminologist Indiana University, Purdue University, Indianapolis, and she has a 131 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:08,600 Speaker 1: much more conservative estimate. So her estimate is based on 132 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:13,600 Speaker 1: links between cases that were made by journalists or law enforcement, 133 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:17,200 Speaker 1: and there's a different metric in in her study, the 134 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:20,679 Speaker 1: killer had to have murdered at least three victims conforming 135 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:25,440 Speaker 1: to that FBI serial killer definition. By her definition, they 136 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:29,200 Speaker 1: are about one hundred and fifteen serial killers dating back 137 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:32,120 Speaker 1: to the nineteen seventies in the US whose crimes have 138 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:36,079 Speaker 1: never been solved. In the same time period as her 139 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 1: estimate frontsolved serial murders, there were roughly six hundred and 140 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:45,200 Speaker 1: twenty solved serial murder cases. And we don't again, we 141 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:48,920 Speaker 1: don't mean that every single one of these people fits 142 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:53,679 Speaker 1: that sort of um film and fiction definition. They're not 143 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:56,920 Speaker 1: all hannibal lecters. In fact, most serial killers do not 144 00:09:57,080 --> 00:10:00,600 Speaker 1: have a very high i Q. But a lot of 145 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:05,200 Speaker 1: death and a hundred and fifteen. It's still it might 146 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 1: still be missing some pieces because this doesn't include cases 147 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:11,760 Speaker 1: where no one ever made a link between murders. If, 148 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:16,239 Speaker 1: for instance, a serial killer murdered a person in Arkansas 149 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 1: and then drifted to an adjacent state to kill two 150 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:22,600 Speaker 1: more people, the crimes might never been flagged by anyone 151 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:25,320 Speaker 1: as related, so they wouldn't appear in this count. And 152 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:29,200 Speaker 1: that's one of the biggest reasons experts believe that there 153 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:32,600 Speaker 1: could be any serial killers on Cotton are missed. People 154 00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 1: don't don't link you know, it's not like Charlie Day 155 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:39,839 Speaker 1: with a conspiracy wall. People are not linking up these 156 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:43,520 Speaker 1: very seemingly unrelated events and it's tough to do so, 157 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:45,480 Speaker 1: you know, it's a lot of research and it's a 158 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 1: lot of time. I mean, yeah, where is Pepe for real? 159 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:55,600 Speaker 1: Though there is no Peppe who had to inject some 160 00:10:55,720 --> 00:11:00,400 Speaker 1: left could god well, because it's a terrifying thought, just 161 00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:05,600 Speaker 1: the the unknown serial killer that just could be lurking everywhere, 162 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 1: and even if it's only a hundred and fifteen. That's 163 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:14,000 Speaker 1: still over a hundred over one people. They're only fifty states. 164 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:19,040 Speaker 1: That's true, that's true. And I remember, I remember we 165 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:21,720 Speaker 1: had talked about this, maybe off air one day met. 166 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:26,480 Speaker 1: But we start talking about the distribution of of serial 167 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 1: killers at least in the states. Are there more in Alaska, 168 00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:33,280 Speaker 1: or they're more in Florida, and so on, And it's 169 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:38,360 Speaker 1: an interesting conversation because it quickly goes to speculation. We 170 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:40,679 Speaker 1: we don't really know. We know that the inner State 171 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 1: in Texas is very, very dangerous, and the FBI has 172 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:48,360 Speaker 1: been keeping an eye on it. But if we count 173 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:51,880 Speaker 1: on these estimates, we can reasonably assume that there's somewhere 174 00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:55,240 Speaker 1: between a hundred and fifty two thousand killers who never 175 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:58,240 Speaker 1: saw justice for their crimes. Many of them may have 176 00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:01,640 Speaker 1: been incarcerated for other unreal ALTD crimes, grand theft, auto 177 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:06,640 Speaker 1: drug possession, something like that, and many may have died 178 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:09,640 Speaker 1: right but as grizzly as it is to point out, 179 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:13,040 Speaker 1: some remain at large and alive today. And it's tricky 180 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:16,440 Speaker 1: and not a little disheartening to realize how little we 181 00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:20,400 Speaker 1: actually know about these numbers and these murders. A long 182 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:23,480 Speaker 1: time ago. Actually, this is one of those conversations that 183 00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:26,160 Speaker 1: you and I have been having for years, right with 184 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 1: slight pauses in there. We've talked about it before. How 185 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:32,400 Speaker 1: much easier it seems to get away with murder and 186 00:12:32,480 --> 00:12:37,079 Speaker 1: other crimes in the days before mass surveillance and forensic science. Yes, 187 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:41,319 Speaker 1: no one knew what fingerprints were, no one knew how 188 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:44,199 Speaker 1: to attract d n A, or even even if you 189 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:47,559 Speaker 1: got it, it was a lot harder to match somebody 190 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:51,120 Speaker 1: up with a database. Right, yeah, there's no database. That's 191 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:55,400 Speaker 1: a good point. So this leads us to ask a 192 00:12:55,480 --> 00:13:00,080 Speaker 1: disturbing question. Are serial killers a relatively recent phenomen and 193 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:03,880 Speaker 1: on in the human story? How long have they been 194 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:08,760 Speaker 1: with us? Have serial murderers always been in our midst? 195 00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:14,959 Speaker 1: The answer, sadly, is an emphatic yes, yeah, And it's 196 00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 1: about to get crazy after this quick word from our sponsor. 197 00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:30,480 Speaker 1: Here's where it gets crazy. Upon closer inspection, it appears 198 00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:32,960 Speaker 1: that the act of serial murder has been with our 199 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:37,720 Speaker 1: species for as long as written history, and by all indications, 200 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:43,080 Speaker 1: predates written history. These killers ran the socio economic gamut. 201 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:46,120 Speaker 1: Among their number, we find people at the very top 202 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:51,200 Speaker 1: and the very bottom of social hierarchies. We find outcast royalty, criminals, 203 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:54,560 Speaker 1: and members of what functioned as the middle class. There 204 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:58,679 Speaker 1: are no common denominators for these murderers other than their actions. 205 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:02,720 Speaker 1: And here are some of the strangest examples of ancient 206 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:06,120 Speaker 1: serial killers we came across. By no means are these 207 00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:09,920 Speaker 1: all of them. Let's get started with someone named Zoo 208 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:15,160 Speaker 1: Senna Teer and this is from originates from fifth fifth 209 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:19,520 Speaker 1: century Yemen, so quite a time ago. Uh. This man 210 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:23,800 Speaker 1: was in the humor rights kingdom that's a modern day Yemen, 211 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 1: and it was this guy was known as or at 212 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:28,400 Speaker 1: least he's come to be known as one of the 213 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:33,440 Speaker 1: first serial killers, the first recorded at least. He was 214 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:37,000 Speaker 1: reportedly a very wealthy man. He lived in a place 215 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:42,760 Speaker 1: called Aiden. And this guy, uh, it's really disturbing. Remember 216 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:45,840 Speaker 1: that that thing, that that whole warning we gave you 217 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:49,240 Speaker 1: at the top, just remember it still stands. He would 218 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:53,160 Speaker 1: reportedly lure young men, young boys into his home with 219 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:56,320 Speaker 1: the promise of things that they needed at the time 220 00:14:56,360 --> 00:15:02,320 Speaker 1: in fifth century Yemen or fifth century what is now Yemen, food, money, 221 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:06,440 Speaker 1: things again, things that they required, and he would strip 222 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:12,640 Speaker 1: them naked, he would assault them. Um generally included rape, 223 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:15,040 Speaker 1: at least from the from the things that we found. 224 00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:18,800 Speaker 1: He would then kill them, generally by throwing them naked 225 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:22,240 Speaker 1: out of an upper story window of his home. And 226 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 1: he did this repeatedly. And then, thankfully, one of the 227 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:29,560 Speaker 1: young men that he lured into his home was able 228 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:32,320 Speaker 1: to put a stop to him and stabbed him to death. 229 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:36,640 Speaker 1: There's a man, uh man. At least it was named 230 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:40,840 Speaker 1: in one book that recorded it as zaras as the 231 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:44,720 Speaker 1: young man who killed him, thankfully. But he's only the start, 232 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:49,760 Speaker 1: and he's really messed up, and it only gets worse, right, right, 233 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:52,720 Speaker 1: He is not the first. He is just one of 234 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:56,000 Speaker 1: the earliest that we know of. Yeah, but again because 235 00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:58,840 Speaker 1: it it's fifth century, so it was written down a 236 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:01,040 Speaker 1: little more easily than some of the even earlier ones. 237 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:05,760 Speaker 1: That will find very important point with shou Shenatier. He 238 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:11,600 Speaker 1: was definitely doing this. We're we're gonna run into some 239 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:16,440 Speaker 1: some strange concerns we always need to have about historical documents. 240 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:20,440 Speaker 1: But this guy definitely was a child murderer and a 241 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:23,840 Speaker 1: somewhat prolific one until, of course, as you said, Matt, 242 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:27,680 Speaker 1: one of his victims managed to take his life. Let's 243 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 1: let's move on to someone who is commonly called the 244 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:35,800 Speaker 1: world's first recorded serial killer or the world's first female 245 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:41,520 Speaker 1: serial killer. This is Loucusta, the Poisoner. So she gets 246 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:44,600 Speaker 1: this title all the time. You'll hear it pretty often. 247 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 1: I did. I did an episode about her for another show, 248 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:51,520 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History, where I also called her the one of 249 00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:55,840 Speaker 1: the first recorded serial killers. But there's a question here 250 00:16:56,400 --> 00:17:00,680 Speaker 1: because she wasn't so much a serial killer as a 251 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:05,640 Speaker 1: paid assassin. So members of the Roman elite were hiring 252 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:09,359 Speaker 1: her to poison the co workers they didn't like, or 253 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:13,800 Speaker 1: to get rid of their relatives if they wanted an inheritance, 254 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:17,919 Speaker 1: you know. And uh, great Uncle Flavius has just taken 255 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:20,679 Speaker 1: too long to kick the bucket. She grew up in 256 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:25,120 Speaker 1: what we call France today, and she had encyclopedia knowledge 257 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:30,440 Speaker 1: of herbal medicine and plant lore. The local elite saw 258 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:32,680 Speaker 1: her knowledge as a way to get rid of their 259 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:37,760 Speaker 1: enemies without a fuss, and she saw a market opportunity. 260 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 1: So she wasn't necessarily um motivated by some sort of 261 00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:48,520 Speaker 1: again perceived commonality of the victims, right, She wasn't looking 262 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:52,640 Speaker 1: for uh young people or brunettes or so on. She 263 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:57,440 Speaker 1: was doing this as a job, and she became pretty famous. 264 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:01,320 Speaker 1: She was arrested a few times, but the people in 265 00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:05,920 Speaker 1: power who used her services always kept her out of 266 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:10,240 Speaker 1: jail that she got rescued by her wealthy patrons numerous times, 267 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:12,840 Speaker 1: and eventually she was called to the city of Rome 268 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:17,280 Speaker 1: to assist the Empress Agrippina in getting rid of her husband, 269 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:21,200 Speaker 1: and she served Agrippina. She went on to serve the 270 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:26,040 Speaker 1: infamous Emperor Nero, who just loved her. And uh, a 271 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:28,879 Speaker 1: lot of stuff about Nero is exaggerated, but he was 272 00:18:29,119 --> 00:18:34,200 Speaker 1: not a nice character. When he died, she found herself 273 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:38,120 Speaker 1: robbed of all the protection she had enjoyed for decades. Uh. 274 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:40,720 Speaker 1: She had even set up a poison school at this point. 275 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:44,239 Speaker 1: She was immediately sentenced to death for her role in 276 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:49,719 Speaker 1: the murders of dozens and dozens of upper trust members 277 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 1: of Roman society. And again, like the case with Zu 278 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:56,800 Speaker 1: shan a tear, we know that she was real and 279 00:18:56,840 --> 00:19:00,280 Speaker 1: we know she actually did this. Yeah, exactly as soon 280 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:04,280 Speaker 1: as I think Galba was the person who who took 281 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:07,880 Speaker 1: over after Nero fell. But yeah, he definitely said, hey, 282 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:12,080 Speaker 1: guess what you get to die now. It's really messed up, 283 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:16,680 Speaker 1: but at least somebody put an end to the assassinations. Um. Now, 284 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:19,399 Speaker 1: let's move on to one of the first forms of 285 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:21,920 Speaker 1: serial killers that we ever covered on this show. Back 286 00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:24,640 Speaker 1: in a video we made about werewolves in the history 287 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 1: of of like nthropy, fascinating stuff. So if we go 288 00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:31,560 Speaker 1: to the Middle Ages in Europe, there were a lot 289 00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:36,359 Speaker 1: of killers, deranged people who would go go around doing 290 00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:42,840 Speaker 1: just terrible things, everything from murder to cannibalism, just just 291 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:45,680 Speaker 1: the worst of the worst. There were human men that 292 00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:48,080 Speaker 1: would go out and do this that were considered to 293 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:51,080 Speaker 1: be werewolves, or at least thought to be werewolves. And 294 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:55,400 Speaker 1: there are some pretty intense claims made about these men, 295 00:19:55,520 --> 00:20:00,399 Speaker 1: even claims by the men themselves who believed, perhaps truly 296 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:04,440 Speaker 1: believed that they would transform in some way to a 297 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:08,199 Speaker 1: wolf or at least the spirit of a wolf. In 298 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:12,120 Speaker 1: the sixteenth century, it was a French peasant named Pierre 299 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:20,600 Speaker 1: Bourgeaux who was apparently under the control the thrall of 300 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:25,000 Speaker 1: several figures clad in black, and this is per his testimony, 301 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:29,760 Speaker 1: including one man named Michael ver Dunne. So, according to 302 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:33,439 Speaker 1: Bogot's story, if they're done gave him an ointment that 303 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:37,199 Speaker 1: would transform him from a man into a wolf. And 304 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:39,199 Speaker 1: we talked about this a little bit in the past 305 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:44,680 Speaker 1: in various episodes. The way that werewolves are generally thought 306 00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:47,879 Speaker 1: to transform nowadays is you get bit by a werewolf, 307 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:51,840 Speaker 1: but you survive. That's that's the way in right, and 308 00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:55,160 Speaker 1: then you follow the path of the wolf. However, back then, 309 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:58,639 Speaker 1: you could become a wolf through any number of weird 310 00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:04,400 Speaker 1: satanic rituals, drinking water from a water from a wolf's 311 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 1: print in the light of the full moon, wearing a 312 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:11,560 Speaker 1: belt made out of wolf pelt, or just rubbing yourself 313 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:15,159 Speaker 1: down with some ointment, yeah, or or you know, taking 314 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:18,119 Speaker 1: a potion. As you said before, there are a lot 315 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:21,439 Speaker 1: of ways that people could be you know, from a rational, 316 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 1: very rational standpoint, a lot of ways that people could 317 00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 1: be convinced that they can become a werewolf or have 318 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:31,560 Speaker 1: become a werewolf. And there's some pretty um, pretty fascinating 319 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:35,239 Speaker 1: arguments that are by no means waterproof, but there are 320 00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:38,479 Speaker 1: some pretty fascinating arguments that some of these ointments were 321 00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:42,560 Speaker 1: in fact hallucinogens, and so these people really did, at 322 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:46,520 Speaker 1: least from their perspective, transform, even if not physically. There 323 00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:49,640 Speaker 1: was a third guy who was named in This Fiasco 324 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:54,400 Speaker 1: with with weird, really weird. First named Philibert doesn't sound 325 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:59,119 Speaker 1: like a killer. Philibert, Montaud, so Ergo, Montauk, and Verdun 326 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:03,240 Speaker 1: became own as the werewolves of Polygamy, and they were 327 00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:09,040 Speaker 1: collectively responsible for the murders of several children. They confessed 328 00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:14,720 Speaker 1: to these murders they did. But how why did they confess? 329 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:18,440 Speaker 1: Bend Oh? Because they were getting tortured left and right, 330 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:22,200 Speaker 1: day and day out like nobody's business, and full on tortured, 331 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:26,280 Speaker 1: bad torture beyond the things that you see in any 332 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:30,800 Speaker 1: mob movie you've ever seen. It's really truly medieval stuff, 333 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:35,359 Speaker 1: such to the point that they could have easily died 334 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:41,000 Speaker 1: during the torture. So they catch for done, and allegedly 335 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:43,960 Speaker 1: they catch them covered in blood, uh, and they begin 336 00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:48,840 Speaker 1: torturing them. Confess to your crimes. What infernal powers have 337 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:54,280 Speaker 1: allowed you to transform into an otherworldly agent of Satan? 338 00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:59,440 Speaker 1: And who was with you? Tell us essentially what you're 339 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:06,720 Speaker 1: covenants and identify the members there in So under torture, 340 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:10,680 Speaker 1: he confesses to whatever they say he did. And then 341 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:15,160 Speaker 1: he says, also, these two guys, Bergo and montau are 342 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:20,919 Speaker 1: in on this with me and then they get apprehended. 343 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:25,200 Speaker 1: Burgo gets tortured and he says, these two guys forced 344 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:28,960 Speaker 1: me to renounce God and turn into a werewolf. I 345 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:31,520 Speaker 1: had to do it to survive. And you know, they're 346 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:34,560 Speaker 1: breaking more of his limbs and they're saying, uh, well, 347 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:38,480 Speaker 1: did you kill hundreds of children? He's saying something like yes, 348 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:42,359 Speaker 1: please God stop, don't kill me. And just quickly, as 349 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:45,720 Speaker 1: a sidebar, let's talk about the torture that was used 350 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:50,560 Speaker 1: against these guys, because it's something that I've seen pictures 351 00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:52,520 Speaker 1: of before and I looked at it again, and you 352 00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:55,960 Speaker 1: may have heard of it, called something that's a torture 353 00:23:56,000 --> 00:24:00,480 Speaker 1: wheel of sorts. And in a lot of the pictures, 354 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:04,000 Speaker 1: these wood cuts that still remain today, copies of them, Um, 355 00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:07,840 Speaker 1: you can see what's being employed. And it is so brutal. 356 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:12,119 Speaker 1: I'm just I'm gonna describe it trigger warning. Here Where 357 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:17,440 Speaker 1: you were laid down where and there are I guess 358 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 1: wedges put beneath the places and where your joints are 359 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:25,560 Speaker 1: and your arm, your major arm and leg bones are broken. 360 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:29,920 Speaker 1: And then you're where those bones are broken. You are 361 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:32,919 Speaker 1: wrapped around this wheel like a wooden looks like a 362 00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:38,119 Speaker 1: large wooden wagon wheel and then you are hung from 363 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 1: on this wheel, uh on a stake of some sort 364 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:47,879 Speaker 1: and basically turned upside down. Um, while you're still alive. 365 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:51,479 Speaker 1: It's hard to imagine. You can find pictures of it. 366 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:55,560 Speaker 1: The thing is, if you if you can imagine, which 367 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:58,760 Speaker 1: is very difficult to do, going through something like that 368 00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:02,280 Speaker 1: and the pain and tear are involved, then it really 369 00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:07,480 Speaker 1: does make you realize that the confessions made when undergoing 370 00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:10,840 Speaker 1: that are to be taken with a grain of salt, absolutely, 371 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:18,400 Speaker 1: and we probably will never know for sure to what 372 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:22,159 Speaker 1: degree these three men were guilty. However, they were not 373 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 1: the only quote unquote werewolves of the time. There was 374 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:29,760 Speaker 1: a serial killer. Was also a cannibal named Peter Stump 375 00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:34,720 Speaker 1: sometimes spelled Stump or Stube, and he was called the 376 00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:39,160 Speaker 1: werewolf of Bedburg. He was a one armed farmer lived 377 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:43,240 Speaker 1: in fifteenth century Germany. Over the course of twenty five years, 378 00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:47,000 Speaker 1: he's thought to have murdered fourteen children, two pregnant women, 379 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:54,760 Speaker 1: and he might not have ever been caught. But like 380 00:25:54,880 --> 00:26:00,600 Speaker 1: many serial killers, he seemed to have a degrading mental state. Yeah, 381 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:03,080 Speaker 1: which is how you know things like Dennis Radar, right, 382 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:06,840 Speaker 1: the BTK killer would have gotten away had his mental 383 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:10,159 Speaker 1: state not continued to decay such that he felt like 384 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:15,000 Speaker 1: he had to be recognized for his terrible, terrible crimes. 385 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:20,720 Speaker 1: This guy Stump or Stump or Stube. When he was caught, 386 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:28,399 Speaker 1: he said, look, yeah, I drank that cow's blood. You 387 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:33,919 Speaker 1: know what else. I also have eaten fetuses and I 388 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:37,240 Speaker 1: had a son. I ate his brain. I don't care. 389 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:42,600 Speaker 1: I'm a monster. And the thing was in his non 390 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:47,040 Speaker 1: killer life. He was a wealthy farmer, and he was 391 00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:51,320 Speaker 1: a widower. He had two children, the son of an 392 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:56,760 Speaker 1: unknown age and daughter called Beale or Sybil, who was 393 00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:00,240 Speaker 1: as far as you know, at least older than fifteen yea. 394 00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:07,399 Speaker 1: He was subjected to tortures stretched on her rack, and 395 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:10,119 Speaker 1: that's when he claimed he had been practicing black magic 396 00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:13,760 Speaker 1: since he was twelve years old. He said the devil 397 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:18,439 Speaker 1: had allowed him to change into a wolf, and for 398 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:22,360 Speaker 1: twenty five years, he said he had been an insatiable 399 00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:30,159 Speaker 1: blood sucker animals, men, women, children. He confessed when he 400 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:34,280 Speaker 1: was when he was presented with the possibility of more torture, 401 00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:39,040 Speaker 1: and he was also accused of having an incestuous relationship 402 00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:42,600 Speaker 1: with his daughter. She was sentenced to die with him, 403 00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:46,760 Speaker 1: and he said that he had had intercourse with the succubus, 404 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:52,800 Speaker 1: again confessing under torture. This did not save him. These 405 00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:56,040 Speaker 1: confessions instead led to his execution. On October thirty one, 406 00:27:56,200 --> 00:28:01,360 Speaker 1: fifteen eighty nine. He, his mistress, and his daughter were murdered, 407 00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:04,679 Speaker 1: and he was murdered in a particularly gruesome way. He 408 00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:07,080 Speaker 1: was put on the wheel that you mentioned earlier, Matt, 409 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:10,800 Speaker 1: and they tore flesh from his body in ten places 410 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:14,040 Speaker 1: with red hot pincers, then his arms and legs. Then 411 00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:17,000 Speaker 1: his limbs were broken with an axe head to prevent 412 00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:21,080 Speaker 1: him from returning from the grave, and he was beheaded, 413 00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:25,560 Speaker 1: and they burned his body. His daughter and his mistress 414 00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:29,720 Speaker 1: were flayed and strangled and then also burned along with him, 415 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:35,800 Speaker 1: and the authorities placed his severed head on top of 416 00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:38,000 Speaker 1: a pole with the torture wheel and a figure of 417 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:41,680 Speaker 1: a wolf audit, so they were convinced that he did something. 418 00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:44,840 Speaker 1: While none of these men were, of course proven to 419 00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:49,200 Speaker 1: be capable of physically changing shape, contemporary accounts paint a 420 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:51,840 Speaker 1: picture of one or two possibilities. One they could have 421 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:56,400 Speaker 1: been mentally ill and homicidal. Two they could have been 422 00:28:56,440 --> 00:29:03,200 Speaker 1: mentally ill and confessing to non existent or exaggerated crimes. See. 423 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:06,239 Speaker 1: And this is a distinct possibility. They could have been 424 00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:11,160 Speaker 1: completely innocent and falsely confessing to avoid further torture. But 425 00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:14,720 Speaker 1: there's an entire genre in Europe around this time of 426 00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:20,200 Speaker 1: people being accused of lecanthropy. And this is just the 427 00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:23,040 Speaker 1: beginning of the story. Will come back with more tales 428 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:33,480 Speaker 1: of ancient serial killers after award from our sponsor. We've 429 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:37,880 Speaker 1: been in Europe for some time. Let's travel to South 430 00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:41,480 Speaker 1: America to the story of Rio s E This Bouger. Yes, 431 00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:45,400 Speaker 1: this is a woman who was also known as law Quintralla. 432 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:48,040 Speaker 1: And this had to do with her the color of 433 00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:51,960 Speaker 1: her hair. She had very striking red hair and she 434 00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:55,200 Speaker 1: she lived in Chile. She was an aristocrat and landowner. 435 00:29:55,480 --> 00:30:00,000 Speaker 1: She uh allegedly carried out about forty murders, around forty 436 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:05,000 Speaker 1: murders while she um while she was basically a tyrant 437 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:07,560 Speaker 1: of sorts over a lot of just a lot of 438 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:11,320 Speaker 1: people who were working on her a state. Uh rough 439 00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:13,600 Speaker 1: you know, they're indigenous workers who then she was in 440 00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:16,680 Speaker 1: charge of, and she was just brutal to them. Apparently 441 00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:21,120 Speaker 1: now she was a member of uh. You know what 442 00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:24,840 Speaker 1: what would be considered a privileged set of people under 443 00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:29,400 Speaker 1: um Santiago in colonial Santiago, and she was said to 444 00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:33,360 Speaker 1: just have delighted it was her. She very much enjoyed 445 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:39,480 Speaker 1: doing depraved things, things that were um, sacrilegious in nature, 446 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:43,080 Speaker 1: I guess to the church, uh, things that were sexual 447 00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:48,760 Speaker 1: and you know, having to do with consumption, like over indulging, 448 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:53,520 Speaker 1: copious consumption. Exactly. It's hedonism, That's exactly what it is. 449 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:58,120 Speaker 1: And there's another person, Elizabeth Bathory from history that we've 450 00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:00,880 Speaker 1: kind of heard about a couple of times that that 451 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:07,160 Speaker 1: this person, Laquintrala, has similarities with Um. She had a 452 00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:11,000 Speaker 1: violent temper. Again, she's a noble woman. She's got a 453 00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:15,600 Speaker 1: fondness for torture and specifically torturing people who are underneath her, 454 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:20,000 Speaker 1: her subordinates. She seemed to to delight in it, like 455 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:24,200 Speaker 1: we said. Now, besides you know, the her indentured servants 456 00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:28,600 Speaker 1: and her slaves, she also murdered lovers, which is something 457 00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:31,360 Speaker 1: we may see here in the future. Here. Um, she 458 00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:34,520 Speaker 1: even murdered a priest and even committed patricide and killed 459 00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:39,600 Speaker 1: her father. Now you know, in in this case, a 460 00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:43,320 Speaker 1: lot of the people we've spoken about haven't been wealthy wealthy, 461 00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:45,360 Speaker 1: but this is one of the first cases we see 462 00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:48,480 Speaker 1: that the wealth is actually being used to avoid justice. 463 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:51,280 Speaker 1: It's kind of like, um, the person from Rome we 464 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:55,320 Speaker 1: were speaking about friends in high places Locusta, Yeah, where 465 00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:58,600 Speaker 1: she was able to use her influence to avoid justice 466 00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:01,440 Speaker 1: for quite a while, several years in fact. And she 467 00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:04,680 Speaker 1: even would donate to the church, to the Catholic Church 468 00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:08,160 Speaker 1: in order to kind of um grease the hand in 469 00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:10,600 Speaker 1: a way to be a little a little bit safer, 470 00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:13,280 Speaker 1: even though it's kind of a known thing. Maybe, yeah, 471 00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:16,800 Speaker 1: she epsteined it since you know, because she was paying 472 00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:22,880 Speaker 1: off judges, lawyers, she had many relatives in political positions. 473 00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:28,320 Speaker 1: She did go on trial, but um, despite being pegged 474 00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:32,120 Speaker 1: for forty separate murders, the trial was stalled as a 475 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:35,400 Speaker 1: result of her influence. She was released and then uh 476 00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:39,920 Speaker 1: this this is around the sixteen hundreds, from sixteen thirty 477 00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:44,640 Speaker 1: seven on, she was released and she lived out the 478 00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:51,200 Speaker 1: remainder of her life. She eventually passed away in sixteen 479 00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:57,160 Speaker 1: sixty five of old age, not in jail, and thirty 480 00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:02,320 Speaker 1: years later the judiciary system caught up and they said, 481 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:07,520 Speaker 1: let's investigate these things. But she was dead, So whatever 482 00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:11,000 Speaker 1: she did, whatever kind of justice she would face, it 483 00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:18,160 Speaker 1: would not be earthly justice. And years after her death, 484 00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:22,360 Speaker 1: her home was abandoned because people thought that her ghosts 485 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:27,560 Speaker 1: still walked the premises. And let's stick with let's stick 486 00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:31,400 Speaker 1: with female serial killers here, there's another one, Gulia Tofana. 487 00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:36,880 Speaker 1: As we know, there's a stereotype that tells us female 488 00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:42,440 Speaker 1: serial killers generally seem to prefer poison as their primary 489 00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:46,360 Speaker 1: murder instrument. This is a stereotype. Stereotypes are everywhere. There 490 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:50,360 Speaker 1: may be a tendency, but that's certainly not everybody. However, 491 00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:57,840 Speaker 1: Gulia Tofana is a poster child for the compulsive poisoning crew. 492 00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:04,480 Speaker 1: And again, like similar to our earlier example, and here's 493 00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:07,880 Speaker 1: our question. Is she We have confirmed kills on her side, 494 00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:11,720 Speaker 1: but is she a serial killer or is she someone 495 00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:15,400 Speaker 1: in a gruesome profession. She was helping wives who wanted 496 00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:20,080 Speaker 1: to kill their husbands, along with her daughter who worked 497 00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:24,560 Speaker 1: with her, and a couple of assistants, and they were 498 00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:28,320 Speaker 1: mass producing poison. It was a kind it was believed 499 00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:31,360 Speaker 1: to be related to arsenic So is she a businesswoman? 500 00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:34,520 Speaker 1: She a killer? Is she both? And she even had 501 00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:38,399 Speaker 1: a poison named after her. Right, that's that's true. Yeah, yeah, 502 00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:42,120 Speaker 1: what was it? Uh? Well, I mean it's the specific 503 00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:48,520 Speaker 1: I guess version of arsenic right, the aqua to fauna, 504 00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:53,359 Speaker 1: aqua tofauna. So don't if it, don't take it. If 505 00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:56,120 Speaker 1: you read that in an ingredient list or anything, don't 506 00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:59,000 Speaker 1: don't bother with that. Put those cheese nips away. Yeah, 507 00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:04,160 Speaker 1: it's not a fancy bottled water aquat. That's what it 508 00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:06,200 Speaker 1: sounds like to me. And we have we have time 509 00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:09,880 Speaker 1: for one more. Let's see, let's go with Liu Pingli. 510 00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:15,319 Speaker 1: Liu Pingli was a Han prince. Like some of our 511 00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:20,920 Speaker 1: other early serial killers, he was from wealth. He was 512 00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:25,160 Speaker 1: born in the second century BC. He is one of 513 00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:28,640 Speaker 1: the earliest serial killers that we have on record. So 514 00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:31,360 Speaker 1: there are a couple of different competing ones. Here is 515 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:34,319 Speaker 1: the third son of Liu qu who is Prince Yao 516 00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:37,880 Speaker 1: of Liang and the grandson of the Emperor one and 517 00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:40,200 Speaker 1: the nephew of the Emperor Jing, so he is very 518 00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:43,520 Speaker 1: very well connected. According to a book called Records of 519 00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:48,719 Speaker 1: the Grand Historian, this guy was a monster. He was 520 00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:52,560 Speaker 1: arrogant and cruel, and his idea of a fun time 521 00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:56,719 Speaker 1: would be too round up. Some of his friends or 522 00:35:56,719 --> 00:36:02,160 Speaker 1: his followers and go on marauding expedition with slaves from 523 00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:05,319 Speaker 1: the court or with young men who are on the 524 00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:09,120 Speaker 1: wrong side of the law. And they would literally ride 525 00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:12,040 Speaker 1: out around town in the countryside, and they were murder 526 00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:16,279 Speaker 1: people for fun and steal their stuff just because he 527 00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:21,280 Speaker 1: thought it was a lark. It's like the definition of marauder. 528 00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:26,719 Speaker 1: Is that a correct term? Yeah? This is not like 529 00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:32,000 Speaker 1: the werewolves of Poligny, right, we we know exactly what 530 00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:35,640 Speaker 1: he did. He killed in his crew, killed over a 531 00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:39,959 Speaker 1: hundred people, and they became infamous. These murders were known 532 00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:42,560 Speaker 1: across the kingdom and people were afraid to go out 533 00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:48,000 Speaker 1: at night. Eventually, things get to a boiling point and someone, 534 00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:51,680 Speaker 1: a son of someone he had killed, accuses him and 535 00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:55,600 Speaker 1: tells the emperor, you know, like your son is a monster. 536 00:36:55,640 --> 00:37:01,080 Speaker 1: He's running around killing people for sport. And as soon 537 00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:03,560 Speaker 1: as that person said it, other people spoke out, and 538 00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:06,600 Speaker 1: officials in the court said, you have to kill your nephew. 539 00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:10,799 Speaker 1: More than people have died, how many more have to die? 540 00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:14,520 Speaker 1: And the Emperor said, I can't. I can't bring myself 541 00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:16,319 Speaker 1: to kill my nephew, no matter what kind of person 542 00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:19,799 Speaker 1: he is. But I will do the next best thing. 543 00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:24,880 Speaker 1: He stripped Liu Pingli of all of his royal titles, 544 00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:29,520 Speaker 1: made him just regular schmo and banished him to County 545 00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:34,960 Speaker 1: shoon Yong. What happened after that, we don't know, because 546 00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:39,680 Speaker 1: again it's it's very difficult for us to trace the 547 00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:43,160 Speaker 1: lives of commonplace people in this day and time. You know, 548 00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:46,479 Speaker 1: when he got stripped of that title, it kind of 549 00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:51,160 Speaker 1: banished even what he did to the unknown. But this 550 00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:53,840 Speaker 1: is pretty surprising stuff when you see just from a 551 00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:59,239 Speaker 1: few examples, you see how prevalent serial murdering is, or 552 00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:02,200 Speaker 1: at least the accusation thereof. That's where we have to 553 00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:05,600 Speaker 1: talk about the problems with historical accounts. Right, the same 554 00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:08,239 Speaker 1: sources that would appear to be our primary means of 555 00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:12,000 Speaker 1: learning a story may often be the very same sources 556 00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:15,120 Speaker 1: that prevent us from learning the truth. Because you think 557 00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:19,880 Speaker 1: propaganda is bad now, right, when you're the one who 558 00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:23,560 Speaker 1: survives the end of a sword and the other person 559 00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:27,759 Speaker 1: does not, you can write whatever you want, right exactly. Yeah, 560 00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:30,880 Speaker 1: history is written by the winners, and often just seeing 561 00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:33,239 Speaker 1: something in print was enough to damn someone in the 562 00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:36,719 Speaker 1: public eye. There's a fantastic book called devil in the 563 00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:39,840 Speaker 1: shape of a woman. That looks at this practice in 564 00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:46,200 Speaker 1: the Salem witch trials, and what we find is that, um, 565 00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:50,160 Speaker 1: more so in Europe, but also a little bit in Salem, 566 00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:55,280 Speaker 1: there are questions of Uh, there are questions of motive. 567 00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:59,319 Speaker 1: Did the accusers always believe someone was in league with 568 00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:03,800 Speaker 1: the devil? Or were they pushing the case because according 569 00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:07,759 Speaker 1: to law in some communities, the inquisitors or the accusers 570 00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:10,400 Speaker 1: got a piece of the person's estate when they were 571 00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:15,359 Speaker 1: found to be a witch. It's definitely possible, right, And uh, yeah, man, 572 00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:18,319 Speaker 1: you gotta think about literacy rates as well in in 573 00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:22,279 Speaker 1: general for certain regions where things are happening historically, and 574 00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:25,800 Speaker 1: also the people who can read the stuff that is 575 00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:29,000 Speaker 1: being written. Um, there are a lot of times the 576 00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:33,399 Speaker 1: people who can make the laws or enact justice right 577 00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:35,960 Speaker 1: or something to that effect. And when there's a written 578 00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:40,080 Speaker 1: document that says it's an accusatory document, it's going to 579 00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:44,120 Speaker 1: stand out with the people who are looking to to 580 00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:48,359 Speaker 1: root out heresy, to root out things that would go 581 00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:51,840 Speaker 1: against the church and or the the well, the state, 582 00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:56,200 Speaker 1: sometimes the nation, but usually the church. And in several 583 00:39:56,200 --> 00:40:00,880 Speaker 1: of the cases above, despite these salient historical questions. We 584 00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:04,600 Speaker 1: have found cooperating sources that appear to confirm some basic 585 00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:10,400 Speaker 1: and disturbing truths. And just with this small collection of examples, 586 00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:17,279 Speaker 1: we have illustrated that the concept of serial murderers predates 587 00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:23,000 Speaker 1: the term serial killer. The same psychosis are are present, 588 00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:26,719 Speaker 1: if not prevalent, and we will never know how many 589 00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:30,920 Speaker 1: serial murderers existed. We don't have a particularly sharp understanding 590 00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:34,600 Speaker 1: of how many exists today. However, we can surmise that 591 00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:38,280 Speaker 1: this practice and these people have been with humanity since 592 00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:42,640 Speaker 1: before the dawn of modern history, a dark shadow following 593 00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:48,120 Speaker 1: behind our species from the day the first Homo sapiens emerged. Yeah, 594 00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:51,160 Speaker 1: and uh, oh my god, and let's uh, let's bring 595 00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:54,880 Speaker 1: something else up here really fast. We we we've been 596 00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:58,440 Speaker 1: talking about serial murders and serial killers and how many 597 00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:01,400 Speaker 1: may exist right now. Well, there's a person that we 598 00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:06,840 Speaker 1: talked to through the Zodiac Killer show named Peter Vronsky, 599 00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:11,439 Speaker 1: and he brings up a very fascinating idea here. He 600 00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:15,560 Speaker 1: believes that when there's economic downturn, especially on a wide 601 00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:19,760 Speaker 1: scale in any region or globally even or just in 602 00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:25,680 Speaker 1: a town, the the probability of creating a future serial 603 00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:30,320 Speaker 1: killer who is going through this, uh, the economic downturn, 604 00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:33,560 Speaker 1: all the realities that you face when that's happening. He 605 00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:37,240 Speaker 1: believes that you increase the probability of creating serial killers. 606 00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:41,000 Speaker 1: And in his opinion, he wrote a book called Sons 607 00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:44,759 Speaker 1: of Kine, and in it he describes how because of 608 00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:49,520 Speaker 1: the financial crisis from two thousand seven two eight, we're 609 00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:52,960 Speaker 1: actually creating a new generation of serial killers, or we 610 00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:58,400 Speaker 1: have generated essentially a new season of serial killers that 611 00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:02,640 Speaker 1: will emerge ten twenty years from now. And he believes 612 00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:05,560 Speaker 1: that that economic downturn at least in some way helped 613 00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:10,520 Speaker 1: to create those serial killers. Fascinating stuff, faster, fascinating. I'd 614 00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:12,840 Speaker 1: love to I'd love to check out this book. I'd 615 00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:15,040 Speaker 1: love to learn more about his work. Let us know 616 00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:17,880 Speaker 1: if you've read this book, and let let us know 617 00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:20,680 Speaker 1: what your take is. Do you think that's correlation, do 618 00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:25,080 Speaker 1: you think it's causation. Which killers do you think should 619 00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:28,360 Speaker 1: be remembered or learned from in the modern day. What 620 00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:31,680 Speaker 1: are other ancient serial killers that you think your fellow 621 00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:35,440 Speaker 1: listeners should hear about. Who, if anyone, do you believe 622 00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:41,160 Speaker 1: was falsely accused due to the politics or the power 623 00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:44,640 Speaker 1: games of the time. Let us know. 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