1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:27,320 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of I Heart Radio. Welcome 2 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:30,560 Speaker 1: back to the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always 3 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:35,839 Speaker 1: so much for tuning in. We're hearkening back in some 4 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:39,599 Speaker 1: ways to the days of nostalgia. Here with with our 5 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:44,400 Speaker 1: one and only super producer, Mr Max Williams. I'm Ben. 6 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:47,080 Speaker 1: I wanted to start with a question. No, I don't 7 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:49,120 Speaker 1: know if we ever talked about this. Did you ever 8 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:51,280 Speaker 1: go to summer camp? Yeah? I grew up in the 9 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:54,480 Speaker 1: Methodist Church and my my dad was a choir master, 10 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:57,279 Speaker 1: music ministers what they call it officially, So I went 11 00:00:57,320 --> 00:00:59,760 Speaker 1: to a lot of church summer camps, which you're similar, 12 00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:05,040 Speaker 1: if mildly indoctrinating, UM. But they have you know, swimming 13 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:08,200 Speaker 1: and crafts and all the usual summer camp kind of 14 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:11,600 Speaker 1: activities that we think of. UM. But then there's also 15 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:16,000 Speaker 1: that undercurrent of kind of ideology that sort of plays 16 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 1: into it, especially at an age where I wasn't sure 17 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:20,800 Speaker 1: which direction I was going in terms of like being 18 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:23,240 Speaker 1: a true believer or whatever. So I always kind of 19 00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:25,319 Speaker 1: felt a little off, and now thinking back, it feels 20 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:28,000 Speaker 1: even more off. You know, I had the same experience 21 00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:30,560 Speaker 1: because I went to a lot of camps that were 22 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:33,559 Speaker 1: in retrospect, because my boy Scout troop was a bunch 23 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:37,959 Speaker 1: of like X marines and ex or current police officers 24 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:42,600 Speaker 1: and military types. Looking back, the stuff they had us 25 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 1: doing was pretty unsafe and probably somewhat illegal. But like you, 26 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 1: I had a I I spent some time locked up 27 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 1: in a church summer camp one year. I did not 28 00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 1: cotton to it. And I've just been thinking about all 29 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 1: those activities because there are so many different kinds of 30 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:04,680 Speaker 1: summer camps, and I love that you pointed out that 31 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:07,720 Speaker 1: often in hindsight, we can see that there was an 32 00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:11,320 Speaker 1: agenda to some of these things, even if the kids 33 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:14,360 Speaker 1: didn't really get it. Max, you and I were talking 34 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:16,680 Speaker 1: briefly off air about some of this. Were you a 35 00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:19,200 Speaker 1: summer camp guy? Yeah, I mean kind of in the 36 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 1: same way that Nol was. I mean, Alex and I, 37 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:24,600 Speaker 1: like our parents are really into the church, so into 38 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:26,720 Speaker 1: those like none of those like you know, oh, you're 39 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:28,880 Speaker 1: gonna go off to the woods for a few months 40 00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:31,800 Speaker 1: and stay away like fabled summer camps of the nineteen 41 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:35,960 Speaker 1: fifties or something like that, But yeah, like, hey, go 42 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:40,960 Speaker 1: there and uh play volleyball and chess and learn about 43 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 1: Jesus Christ type summer camps. And that's not you know, 44 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:47,760 Speaker 1: it's not too too far off from what we're talking 45 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:52,360 Speaker 1: about today. Um NPR has a really cool story where 46 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:56,160 Speaker 1: they include the description of a twenty five minutes silent, 47 00:02:56,360 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 1: black and white archival video from the U s. National 48 00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:03,280 Speaker 1: Ark Hives that shows exactly we're describing. In ninety seven 49 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:08,120 Speaker 1: boys just frolicking and making braided bracelets and you know, 50 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 1: archery and fun and all of this stuff, and the 51 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:13,680 Speaker 1: cats skills and mountain and upstate New York, you know, 52 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:18,120 Speaker 1: camping and horsing around in the mud and like you said, Max, 53 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 1: playing chess and checkers and shooting guns and all that 54 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 1: good stuff. And then oh, what's that a Nazi flag? 55 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:29,000 Speaker 1: You say? Okay, wait a minute, double check what's going 56 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:33,920 Speaker 1: on here in America? I understand, Ben, help us understand. 57 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:37,120 Speaker 1: Oh boy, yeah, so this is the thing. This is 58 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 1: today's episode. We tricked you a little bit with the 59 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:44,120 Speaker 1: nostalgia of submery camps, but it is a true story, 60 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:47,760 Speaker 1: you know, and it's something that history often forgets. There 61 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:51,840 Speaker 1: was a lot of support, a surprising amount of support 62 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:54,760 Speaker 1: for Nazism in the US, and this was kind of 63 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:58,480 Speaker 1: normalized for some people in the thirties, in the kind 64 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:02,560 Speaker 1: of interwar years years after World War One, but before 65 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:07,080 Speaker 1: World War Two, a lot of people who lived in 66 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:12,120 Speaker 1: different countries but had German ancestry got into the idea 67 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:17,080 Speaker 1: of forming citizen groups that would spread what they euphemistically 68 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:21,440 Speaker 1: called German virtues around the world. And they were trying 69 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:24,720 Speaker 1: to get public support in their neck of the global 70 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:28,039 Speaker 1: woods for the goals of the Nazi Party and no 71 00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:31,919 Speaker 1: help me out here, lean on your skills as a 72 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:35,960 Speaker 1: former young German boy. This had a name. It was 73 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:39,719 Speaker 1: the German American Bund in the US, formed in nineteen 74 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:43,480 Speaker 1: thirty six, but they had a German name as well. 75 00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:48,559 Speaker 1: I asked the Amaica Deutsche Volksbundre, so you may recall 76 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:51,400 Speaker 1: then you and I participated in a really great interview 77 00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:54,800 Speaker 1: with a journalist by the name of Jonathan Kats, not 78 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:58,400 Speaker 1: doctor Kats from from Comedy Central fame, who wrote a 79 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:01,200 Speaker 1: book about a guy named Smet Lee. Butler, Um, we're 80 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:03,599 Speaker 1: not to go into that now. It's a really cool story, 81 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 1: I don't of itself. That may well be worth an 82 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:08,159 Speaker 1: episode of this show too. But um. He talks a 83 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:11,160 Speaker 1: lot about the Bund and how it in some small 84 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:14,920 Speaker 1: way led to the formation of the House un American 85 00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:17,920 Speaker 1: Committee or who act we love a good acronym here 86 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 1: on Ridiculous History, which of course was about ferreting out communists, 87 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 1: uh and socialists you know, um hiding in plain sight. 88 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 1: But yeah, it's true it was that was because of 89 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:32,920 Speaker 1: the idea of this insidious you know, outward influence that 90 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:37,600 Speaker 1: was potentially corrupting the youth. Yeah. Absolutely, there was a 91 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:41,960 Speaker 1: concern of the idea of a fifth column, whether that 92 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:47,720 Speaker 1: be Nazis, socialist communists. Weirdly enough, during this era of 93 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:50,360 Speaker 1: American history, a lot of people didn't have a problem 94 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:53,359 Speaker 1: with fascism. But you'll have to check out that interview. 95 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:55,960 Speaker 1: That's right. It was kind of the flavor of the 96 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:57,560 Speaker 1: week in a lot of ways. It was sort of 97 00:05:57,640 --> 00:06:00,760 Speaker 1: like an alternative sort of uh not regress to that's 98 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 1: definitely well. I mean it could have been seen that 99 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:04,680 Speaker 1: way by some that it was a you know, the 100 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:08,080 Speaker 1: idea that, um, the American dream and capitalism were sort 101 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:11,080 Speaker 1: of a failed experiment, and there were some looking to 102 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:14,040 Speaker 1: protect what was theirs and the super rich, that we're 103 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 1: looking for another system that might safeguard those things. A 104 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 1: k a their own money. Um. But that's again a 105 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:23,560 Speaker 1: discussion for another day. The goal, or at least the 106 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:27,919 Speaker 1: membership of the America Deutsche volks Bund was called the 107 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:31,440 Speaker 1: Bund moving Forward was um that it was described itself 108 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:35,280 Speaker 1: as an organization of patriotic Americans of German stock. And 109 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:38,040 Speaker 1: like you said, Ben, the goal was to proliferate what 110 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:44,200 Speaker 1: was it, German ideals or German virtue. That word is 111 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:47,920 Speaker 1: is interesting, Yeah, yeah, And they're not talking about postcards 112 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:50,600 Speaker 1: of Berlin or anything like that. They're talking about something 113 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:55,800 Speaker 1: much more dangerous. Yeah. The WHO Act was looking for 114 00:06:55,960 --> 00:06:59,240 Speaker 1: so called fifth columns of fifth columns kind of Cold 115 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:02,480 Speaker 1: War term, a group within a country at war who 116 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:06,480 Speaker 1: are sympathetic to or working for the enemies. But that 117 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:11,200 Speaker 1: haddn't quite reached a boil yet. Adolf Hitler thirties, you 118 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 1: know who he is. We don't need to give an 119 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:16,800 Speaker 1: intro on that particular super villain. Uh. He was over 120 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 1: across the pond in Germany at this time. He was 121 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:23,440 Speaker 1: trying to fire up the population of Germany to be 122 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:28,240 Speaker 1: more agro right to other nations to start invading and 123 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:34,000 Speaker 1: persecuting minorities in Germany itself. And Nazis were already doing 124 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:39,400 Speaker 1: horrific things in the country, but there were Nazi sympathizers 125 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:42,480 Speaker 1: in the Bund in the US who had started these 126 00:07:42,520 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 1: summer camps because they wanted Nazism to be like Wu Tang. 127 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:51,240 Speaker 1: They wanted it to be for the kids and as right. 128 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:53,960 Speaker 1: And that clip that we we mentioned at the top 129 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:57,800 Speaker 1: is footage of an actual Nazi youth camp, Nazi summer 130 00:07:57,840 --> 00:08:02,320 Speaker 1: camp in Wyndham, New York. And this was just one 131 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:05,600 Speaker 1: of several that came out across the country. They were 132 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 1: sponsored by German loyalists, especially like the leader of the Bund, 133 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 1: a man named Fritz koon Uh. And you know, we'll 134 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 1: get into we'll get into some of their numbers, but 135 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:21,280 Speaker 1: just know, like with any extremist group, there's a lot 136 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:24,560 Speaker 1: of debate on how many people were actually members versus 137 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 1: how many people the Bund claimed were members. Well let's 138 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:32,440 Speaker 1: not forget I mean, if anything positive could be said 139 00:08:32,440 --> 00:08:34,839 Speaker 1: of Hitler, now that's not how we want to frame 140 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 1: that at all. He was a really good marketer, you 141 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:40,440 Speaker 1: know him and his you know Gebals and his whole team. 142 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:44,120 Speaker 1: They understood how to change hearts and minds, you know, 143 00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:46,520 Speaker 1: like your description the idea of them firing up their 144 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:48,800 Speaker 1: base in a country that had been ravaged by the 145 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:51,080 Speaker 1: First World War. They were sort of right for the 146 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:54,280 Speaker 1: picking to sort of create these nationalistic ideas. Uh, they 147 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:56,200 Speaker 1: were a little bit of an easier target and a 148 00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:58,280 Speaker 1: lot of bit of an easier target. But let's not 149 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:01,240 Speaker 1: forget that Hitler was thinking egg. He wanted to take 150 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:03,600 Speaker 1: over the world, and in order to do that, he 151 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:05,559 Speaker 1: needed to change hearts and minds. And what better way 152 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:08,680 Speaker 1: to do that than with the kiddies, Uh, with the 153 00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 1: artifice of beated necklaces and bracelets and archery and swimming 154 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:18,079 Speaker 1: and fun and Nazi salutes on us soil right and 155 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 1: learning uh, pro Nazi songs, propaganda stuff like that. There 156 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:29,320 Speaker 1: was a post on the National Archives which describes how 157 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:33,839 Speaker 1: the bund grew to include more than seventy local chapters, 158 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:37,320 Speaker 1: and they also say that the probably one of the 159 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:40,880 Speaker 1: best known examples of the organization's activities, or one of 160 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:45,080 Speaker 1: their biggest things they did, was a pro Nazi rally 161 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 1: in nine nine at Madison Square Garden. Twenty thousand people 162 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:55,880 Speaker 1: showed up and they just you know, were on one 163 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:59,839 Speaker 1: level or another sympathetic to the aims of the Nazi Party, 164 00:09:59,840 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 1: and this is happening while uh, this is happening while 165 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:07,800 Speaker 1: Hitler declares war on Poland and then also as on 166 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:10,840 Speaker 1: some funk around and find out with Britain and France. Well, 167 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 1: and I mean, I think you know, correct me. If 168 00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:15,560 Speaker 1: I'm wrong, then you're the international affairs guy. But I 169 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:18,760 Speaker 1: mean the US and after World War One had kind 170 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 1: of decided to take a step back a little bit 171 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:23,040 Speaker 1: and maybe be a little more isolationist, and was gonna 172 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:25,560 Speaker 1: be hard pressed to jump right in to, you know, 173 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 1: come to the aid of these other countries unless it 174 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:31,680 Speaker 1: was just like dire and what it ultimately became, which 175 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:34,280 Speaker 1: was a humanity. They they just could not do something 176 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:36,280 Speaker 1: at the once we discovered what was really going on 177 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 1: in Germany. So at this point, America's sort of turning 178 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:43,120 Speaker 1: a bit of a blind guy. Unless I'm oversimplifying. Well, 179 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:45,840 Speaker 1: you know, I don't think you're oversimplifying too much, man, 180 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:49,400 Speaker 1: Because there were there was a stark division. There were 181 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:52,679 Speaker 1: people saying, let's get our own house in order before 182 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:58,080 Speaker 1: we start sending American citizens to die overseas in foreign countries. 183 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:00,079 Speaker 1: And then there were other people were saying, well, this 184 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:05,040 Speaker 1: is a matter of moral compulsion. We as a moral 185 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:09,640 Speaker 1: and just society must fight injustice. And as we know, 186 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:14,080 Speaker 1: that changed, especially after the bombing of Pearl Harbor. But 187 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:16,400 Speaker 1: this is before then. This is before then, when there 188 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:19,120 Speaker 1: are still a lot of people were kind of doing 189 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:23,480 Speaker 1: a sort of dithering dance of centrism when they're saying, well, 190 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:26,960 Speaker 1: you know it's not we can't be so quick to judge. 191 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:31,360 Speaker 1: And these folks would end up sending their kids to 192 00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:36,000 Speaker 1: these camps. There would be anywhere between I think eight 193 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:38,680 Speaker 1: eight would be the youngest you would have a kid there. 194 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:41,720 Speaker 1: There were camps for boys and girls. Uh, the kids 195 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:44,760 Speaker 1: would be like eight to eighteen or so. And it's 196 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 1: really chilling. It looks like an alternate reality. It reminds 197 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:52,200 Speaker 1: me of the man in the High Castle. To see 198 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:57,120 Speaker 1: this footage of these kids in official uniforms waving banners 199 00:11:57,200 --> 00:12:01,440 Speaker 1: for Hitler Youth. It's it strange because it makes you 200 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:04,560 Speaker 1: wonder how history could have played out differently. It does, 201 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:07,840 Speaker 1: and it also brings to mind the excellent movie Jojo 202 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:11,960 Speaker 1: Rabbit Um that shows the kind of Hitler youth camps 203 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:15,640 Speaker 1: in Germany, which you know wouldn't have been that remarkably 204 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:19,120 Speaker 1: different from these, maybe a little bit heavier handed in 205 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:22,040 Speaker 1: terms of like you know, pushing the narrative and the 206 00:12:22,040 --> 00:12:24,120 Speaker 1: indoctrination levels and all that. And also like the way 207 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:26,240 Speaker 1: they depicted in the movie, they're like throwing handgarnaids and 208 00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:28,400 Speaker 1: stuff like that. I don't know that these camps were 209 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:31,280 Speaker 1: full on boot camps where they were doing like weapons drills. 210 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:33,680 Speaker 1: These they would have had to I think hide it 211 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:37,080 Speaker 1: a little more than that in these American versions, but 212 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:41,280 Speaker 1: the ulterior motive still holds true. And we started to 213 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:43,520 Speaker 1: see these pop up all over the place because, as 214 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 1: you said, we had seventy chapters of the Buon across 215 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:49,040 Speaker 1: the United States, and so we started to see these 216 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:51,480 Speaker 1: chapters of these camps popping up kind of near the 217 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:55,600 Speaker 1: major metro area hubs, you know, across the US. UM 218 00:12:55,640 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 1: we had Camp Hindenburg and Grafton, Wisconsin near Milwaukee, UM, 219 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 1: which was another Nazi youth family camps when they referred 220 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:07,839 Speaker 1: to as UM and kids were in fact dressed in 221 00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:10,360 Speaker 1: not of uniforms and they were doing some military type 222 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:14,800 Speaker 1: drills and marching and formations and you know, inspections and 223 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:17,080 Speaker 1: all of that stuff, and these flag raising ceremonies. So 224 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:19,199 Speaker 1: I might have been soft selling a little bit and 225 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:21,040 Speaker 1: may well have looked a lot like what it looked 226 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:24,280 Speaker 1: like in Jojo Rabbit. Yeah, and shout out of course 227 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:29,160 Speaker 1: to take out Watt, who is, by far and large, 228 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:33,560 Speaker 1: if you haven't seen Jojo Rabbit, the best represent the 229 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 1: like the best actor to play that role. I it 230 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 1: was such a third rail play that role, and he 231 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:43,520 Speaker 1: handed handled it beautifully. It managed to be funny and 232 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:47,880 Speaker 1: sad and beautiful and also paint if stylized, a pretty 233 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:50,199 Speaker 1: real picture of what it was like in that country 234 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:53,560 Speaker 1: at that time in history through the eyes of a child. Yeah. 235 00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:57,079 Speaker 1: This this is interesting because the Bund knew there would 236 00:13:57,120 --> 00:13:59,959 Speaker 1: be a limit to how far they could go before 237 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:03,839 Speaker 1: or they were regarded as like um the way you 238 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:07,800 Speaker 1: would regard ass secessionist militia, or like domestic terrorism, although 239 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:09,560 Speaker 1: they may not have used that word at the time. 240 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:12,480 Speaker 1: So the Bund denied that they were teaching these kids 241 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:17,560 Speaker 1: Nazi ideology. Again, they hid behind the linguistic pr shield 242 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:21,160 Speaker 1: of German virtues, but they were they were teaching the 243 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:23,840 Speaker 1: Nazi stuff. So if you look at just the broad 244 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:26,040 Speaker 1: strokes of this before we dig in a little more, 245 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:30,600 Speaker 1: you'll see that by the time World War two broke 246 00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:33,880 Speaker 1: out and these camps and retreats or whatever you want 247 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:36,800 Speaker 1: to call them were shut down. There were at least 248 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:41,040 Speaker 1: sixteen that we know about in the historical record, and 249 00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 1: they were all over the place, from l A to 250 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:47,960 Speaker 1: New Jersey, you name it. And there was this crazy moment. 251 00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:52,520 Speaker 1: You can find this mentioned in Unwritten Record dot blogs, 252 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:55,920 Speaker 1: dot archives dot gov. In the National Archives. One of 253 00:14:55,960 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 1: these films has a little intertitle kind of thing, interstitil 254 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:04,880 Speaker 1: thing that pops up where it has the line German 255 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:14,360 Speaker 1: boy who also belonged to us? But ben I was 256 00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:18,200 Speaker 1: once this young German boy belonged to them. No, no, 257 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:21,040 Speaker 1: because you weren't born born in the three Thank God 258 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 1: gave me a fright. Yeah, it's super, super, super sinister 259 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:27,680 Speaker 1: and unsettling. By the way, I wanted to backtrack to 260 00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:30,280 Speaker 1: something you mentioned a little while ago about that um 261 00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:32,360 Speaker 1: what do you call rally? I guess at Madison Square 262 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:36,280 Speaker 1: garden Um that was attended by I think twenty plus people. 263 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:42,000 Speaker 1: They Nazi saluted to a giant likeness of George Washington. 264 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:47,480 Speaker 1: Uh considered, well he was. He was beloved by the Nazis, 265 00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:49,480 Speaker 1: and I didn't know that he was considered to be 266 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:53,920 Speaker 1: like a fascist by the Nazi Party in a fascist 267 00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:56,720 Speaker 1: is a compliment is a compliment from them. But why 268 00:15:56,800 --> 00:15:58,720 Speaker 1: would they have thought that Ben Is it because of 269 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:00,840 Speaker 1: the idea of imperialism him or like was he a 270 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:04,240 Speaker 1: little bit more hawkish? Like what about George Washington could 271 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:09,800 Speaker 1: be construed with fascism. That's interesting because you can see 272 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:14,400 Speaker 1: a great code switch program on this. Uh. They ran 273 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:17,160 Speaker 1: a piece on this back in twenty nine about that 274 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:22,120 Speaker 1: Madison Square Garden rally. It's called when Nazis took Manhattan. 275 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:25,880 Speaker 1: I think it was on all things considered, And I 276 00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:30,960 Speaker 1: was also confused by this because they definitely they definitely 277 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:35,840 Speaker 1: were praising Hitler, and they were definitely saying crazy anti 278 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:39,880 Speaker 1: Semitic stuff like stop Jewish domination of Christian like all 279 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:43,240 Speaker 1: the racist stuff you would imagine Nazis would do. They 280 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:46,760 Speaker 1: were doing that at the time. But I'm I think 281 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:49,880 Speaker 1: what they were maybe doing, and this is an opinion 282 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 1: code switch has as well. I think what they were 283 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:55,640 Speaker 1: doing was trying to have some slick branding and trying 284 00:16:55,640 --> 00:16:58,680 Speaker 1: to make people think, well, this is actually what the 285 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:04,480 Speaker 1: founding fathers would have always wanted. So since George Washington 286 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:07,639 Speaker 1: can't come back from the grave and say, you guys 287 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:11,800 Speaker 1: are nuts and bananas. They're just trying to put that 288 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:14,880 Speaker 1: ideology upon him. I see that does make a lot 289 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:16,320 Speaker 1: more sense, because I mean, I know he was an 290 00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:18,640 Speaker 1: imperfect dude and the slave owner and all that, and 291 00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:20,840 Speaker 1: you know, I had real bad teeth, but I have 292 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:24,920 Speaker 1: never really gotten any whiffs of of fascism from the guy. 293 00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:29,000 Speaker 1: You know, I also don't believe he would have understood 294 00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:32,720 Speaker 1: the term right. He would have understood dictatorship maybe, or 295 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:36,760 Speaker 1: absolute monarchy. But be that as me, who was not 296 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:40,800 Speaker 1: there to disagree with disagree with him, and this was 297 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:43,879 Speaker 1: powerful branding for them. At this point, we have to 298 00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:49,359 Speaker 1: introduce a wonderful author, Arnie Bernstein, who wrote a book 299 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 1: called Swastika Nation, Fritz Kohn and the Rise and Fall 300 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:56,399 Speaker 1: of the German American Bund. And Bernstein is one of 301 00:17:56,440 --> 00:18:01,320 Speaker 1: the researchers who points out the discrepping see in enrollment 302 00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:07,240 Speaker 1: because according to Bernstein's work, Bund membership never got higher 303 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:10,159 Speaker 1: than twenty five thousand people, but the entire time the 304 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:14,000 Speaker 1: organization claimed it was much much bigger. Yeah, that's pretty common. Um. 305 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:16,920 Speaker 1: He also goes on to say that the majority of 306 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:20,200 Speaker 1: the kids that were attending these camps were the grandchildren 307 00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:24,600 Speaker 1: or children of German immigrants and naturalized American citizens who 308 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:28,160 Speaker 1: were themselves members of the bonds. And you know, again 309 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:31,600 Speaker 1: it was kind of a community thing, right. It was like, Hey, 310 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:34,120 Speaker 1: send your kids to camp, get them out of your 311 00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:36,400 Speaker 1: hair for the summer. I mean in the same way 312 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:39,200 Speaker 1: that the church camps are that way, while still having 313 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 1: this underlying kind of purpose. Yeah, I mean not jumping here. 314 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:44,159 Speaker 1: It's like, you know, you kind of like you know, 315 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:47,920 Speaker 1: advertised it as being like, oh, yeah, like kids gain skills, 316 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:51,400 Speaker 1: you know, have fun, building relationships, might believe enough theism, 317 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:55,760 Speaker 1: but great, right, and that you know that happens sometimes, 318 00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:58,520 Speaker 1: like I had been in the past, I've been in 319 00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:03,919 Speaker 1: things that were weakened outings where you get to do 320 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:06,600 Speaker 1: stuff that kids think is cool, like oh, we're gonna 321 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:09,720 Speaker 1: get to go to a shooting range, we're gonna shoot guns. 322 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:12,680 Speaker 1: You're gonna learn all this fast cars, danger, fire and 323 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 1: knives stuff, And then part way through you're like, I 324 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:19,640 Speaker 1: think these folks might be a militia. I think that's 325 00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:22,000 Speaker 1: a lot of camo and that that's happened to me. 326 00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:23,520 Speaker 1: And I was, you know, I was a kid. I 327 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:26,880 Speaker 1: had no idea what their larger ideological motives are. And 328 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:30,199 Speaker 1: we have to say cultural, this is so weird. This 329 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:34,480 Speaker 1: is not a defensive Nazi summer camps. Cultural summer camps 330 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:37,240 Speaker 1: continue to be a thing in the US and across 331 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:41,200 Speaker 1: the world. Like it's like, imagine if you are if 332 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:45,360 Speaker 1: you if you have a kid who's interested in learning Japanese, 333 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:48,600 Speaker 1: you can send them to a Japanese summer camp and 334 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:52,800 Speaker 1: they'll have this awesome language immersion opportunity. These things aren't 335 00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:58,399 Speaker 1: necessarily evil, but what the Bund was doing was tremendously manipulative, 336 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:02,040 Speaker 1: and it shows us that history sometimes is on a 337 00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:05,320 Speaker 1: knife edge. Of these things. I said it earlier, but 338 00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:08,440 Speaker 1: they could have played out entirely differently. If you went 339 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:13,000 Speaker 1: to one and let's say you're some kind of like inspector, right, 340 00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:15,560 Speaker 1: and you're Uncle Sam has sent you there to make 341 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:20,360 Speaker 1: sure there's just German values, no like Nazi stuff, you 342 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:22,560 Speaker 1: would you would have first see a place that just 343 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:26,800 Speaker 1: had regular summer camp things. You know, you're making friendship bracelets, 344 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:30,520 Speaker 1: you're building fires, you're telling stories. You gotta you gotta 345 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:35,960 Speaker 1: swim buddy for safety and all that. But the express 346 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:38,560 Speaker 1: purpose of this, even though the Bund did not state 347 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:43,959 Speaker 1: it publicly, the express primary purpose of this was indoctrination 348 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:48,240 Speaker 1: to make kids good little arians, loyal first to the Bund, 349 00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:50,840 Speaker 1: but then all sort of Fritz Kon, the leader of 350 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:54,840 Speaker 1: the Bund, and then of course to Adolf Hitler. Yeah, 351 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:57,920 Speaker 1: by by proxy, I guess right. It's like a chain 352 00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:00,400 Speaker 1: of loyalty, you know. Um, one kind of feeds into 353 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:02,399 Speaker 1: the next, and you know, with what's the thing we 354 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:04,639 Speaker 1: always say, ben like usually in terms of social media, 355 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 1: if you're not paying for something, chances are you're the product, 356 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:09,520 Speaker 1: you know what I mean? Like that, these kids are 357 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:13,480 Speaker 1: a product. They're being turned out essentially under the guise 358 00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:16,920 Speaker 1: of free summer camp. And again, I'm sure a lot 359 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:18,800 Speaker 1: of the parents that sent their kids knew exactly what 360 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:21,480 Speaker 1: was going on, but some probably didn't. And at the time, 361 00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:25,359 Speaker 1: Nazism didn't have the sting that it does now because 362 00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:28,959 Speaker 1: you know, with the Holocaust and Germany under this regime 363 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:31,120 Speaker 1: in general, there's a lot of questions about who knew 364 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:33,679 Speaker 1: what when, um, and and a lot of people that 365 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:36,760 Speaker 1: could have easily talked themselves into believing it was just uh, 366 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:39,960 Speaker 1: you know about loyalty to their country without realizing the 367 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:42,000 Speaker 1: atrocities that were going on, even though you know, it 368 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:44,880 Speaker 1: became more and more clear as time went on, even 369 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:47,960 Speaker 1: when people wanted to bury their heads in the sand, 370 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:54,680 Speaker 1: which Ostriches don't actually do. Ostrich facts. So so there's 371 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:56,639 Speaker 1: this reminds me of something. It's a little bit of 372 00:21:56,640 --> 00:22:00,320 Speaker 1: a tangent, but I think it's um informative for a 373 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:07,880 Speaker 1: conversation today. In the like nineteen sixties, probably even more recently, 374 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:12,000 Speaker 1: the clan, the ku Klux Klan would try to indoctrinate 375 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:18,960 Speaker 1: people by having public events and giving them hot dogs, 376 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:21,240 Speaker 1: like you would you would go to a And I 377 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:24,520 Speaker 1: know this because people have experienced it have told me. 378 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:28,119 Speaker 1: You would hear these stories where you know, like picture 379 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:30,920 Speaker 1: there's a small town somewhere in Middle America, and there's 380 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:33,920 Speaker 1: a big to do because there's gonna be a gathering 381 00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:37,480 Speaker 1: from a group of local concerned citizens who are not 382 00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:40,239 Speaker 1: going to tell you they're the clan. Into like you 383 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:44,760 Speaker 1: get there and I'm like, I like hot dogs. Dogs 384 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:47,560 Speaker 1: are delicious. All you have to do is sign up 385 00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:50,160 Speaker 1: to support, sign up to show your support for these 386 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 1: concerned citizens, and then boom, you can have all the 387 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:56,600 Speaker 1: hot dogs what seems like a fair trade to me. Ben, Yeah, 388 00:22:56,720 --> 00:23:00,119 Speaker 1: until you try to join the military or something and 389 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:03,119 Speaker 1: you're on record as being a member of an extreme 390 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:07,840 Speaker 1: supremacy disorganization. So like, people can be tricked. And it's 391 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:11,200 Speaker 1: very important to note that a lot of these children, 392 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:13,840 Speaker 1: I would argue the majority these children didn't really have 393 00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:17,680 Speaker 1: agency in these decisions. Right. The tale as old as time. 394 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 1: Kids don't want to go to summer camp, and their 395 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:23,800 Speaker 1: parents make them, even though even though they typically forged 396 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:26,880 Speaker 1: some of the most long lasting friendships of their lives 397 00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:30,560 Speaker 1: and experienced first love, you know, and learned a couple 398 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:32,440 Speaker 1: of skills while they're at it. So, you know, kids 399 00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:35,680 Speaker 1: go to summer camp and just not Nazi summer camp. Yeah, 400 00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:39,320 Speaker 1: just camp. Do whatever you want kids, I don't care, 401 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:42,719 Speaker 1: it's summer. Do what you want. Yeah. Um, And if 402 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:46,119 Speaker 1: your parents give you a tough time, tell him, Ben Nolan. 403 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:49,119 Speaker 1: Max said it was fine. I'll write a note. I 404 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:52,680 Speaker 1: don't know, just just bends that. It's fine. Max said 405 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:54,960 Speaker 1: it's fine. Max said it's his favorite thing. He said 406 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:57,880 Speaker 1: it with his body language. Said it was fine. There 407 00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:02,960 Speaker 1: we go. Okay. Strickland at heart Radio dot com. Yes, Yes, 408 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:07,040 Speaker 1: our Complaint Department, the media, who cares, who knows. It's 409 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:09,760 Speaker 1: a mystery. But what's not a mystery is what ended 410 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:12,200 Speaker 1: up happening with these camps. We already I mean, it's 411 00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:14,320 Speaker 1: kind of not really much of a surprise that they 412 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:17,800 Speaker 1: ended up being completely shut down, you know, once all 413 00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:19,400 Speaker 1: of the stuff that we're talking about kind of came 414 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:23,199 Speaker 1: to light in terms of Hitler's mission, Yeah yeah, and 415 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:27,840 Speaker 1: dirty stuff about the camps came out themselves, even Nazism 416 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:32,320 Speaker 1: aside um. Bernstein shows that the intended the attendees, like 417 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:37,360 Speaker 1: the kids, were sometimes physically abused. They were used for 418 00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:40,840 Speaker 1: physical labor without their agreement, and this didn't come to 419 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:44,120 Speaker 1: light until those congressional hearings, which you can learn more 420 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:47,560 Speaker 1: about in that MPR article. The only I mentioned at 421 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:51,880 Speaker 1: the top. So, as you said, no, people are starting 422 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:55,080 Speaker 1: to get some bad vibes about this whole Nazi thing, 423 00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:58,120 Speaker 1: and they're starting to think, I don't know, man, maybe 424 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:04,239 Speaker 1: that's not white what George Washington would have wanted. You know, 425 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:07,280 Speaker 1: they're they're thinking of it in those terms. And this 426 00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:11,120 Speaker 1: is where we see this connection because as the US 427 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:14,720 Speaker 1: began to think more and more of Nazi Germany, as 428 00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:19,400 Speaker 1: this dangerous global power that needed to be stopped. They 429 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:24,119 Speaker 1: also started saying, well, do we have our own foxes 430 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:28,000 Speaker 1: in the hen house here? Because you know, these summer 431 00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:31,639 Speaker 1: camps are teaching people to be Nazis. Are Nazis not 432 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:36,119 Speaker 1: our enemies. And that's what leads to the inception or 433 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:39,400 Speaker 1: the creation of the House on American Activities Committee, who 434 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:44,000 Speaker 1: act uh. And ultimately McCarthy is m with the Red 435 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:46,720 Speaker 1: Scare and all that stuff, McCarthy ism of the Red 436 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:51,280 Speaker 1: Scare fame. Indeed, um, by the way, just total miniature tangent. 437 00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:55,320 Speaker 1: I recently subscribed to the Criterion channel. UM, and I've 438 00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:58,000 Speaker 1: just been going down these amazing, you know, old weird 439 00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:01,199 Speaker 1: art movie rabbit holes, and I watched an interview with 440 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:06,440 Speaker 1: the actor Sterling Hayden, who played General Ripper in Doctor 441 00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:08,760 Speaker 1: Strange Love. He was in Kubrick's first or one of 442 00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:11,000 Speaker 1: Kubrick's first films, The Killing. I've been a bunch of 443 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:13,159 Speaker 1: other stuff like John Houston movies and all that. But 444 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:15,320 Speaker 1: there's a really cool little interview with him. It's like 445 00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:17,240 Speaker 1: twenty five minute interview with him, like in his you know, 446 00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:19,679 Speaker 1: he's probably in the seventies standing on a balcony and 447 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:22,760 Speaker 1: I think San Francisco. But he was one of the people, 448 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:27,119 Speaker 1: one of the actors who informed on fellow actors. He 449 00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:31,080 Speaker 1: was himself a socialist and like actually named names, and 450 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:33,360 Speaker 1: he talks about that in this interview, about how much 451 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:35,240 Speaker 1: shame he felt for that and all of this stuff. 452 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:38,520 Speaker 1: So really interesting view into the uh to that period 453 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:40,640 Speaker 1: and into like kind of the mind of like this, 454 00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:45,280 Speaker 1: you know, big old Hollywood kind of luminary criterion is awesome. 455 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:50,280 Speaker 1: As as the templar said to Indie, you have chosen wisely, 456 00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:52,760 Speaker 1: so many different paths to go down whatever you're into. 457 00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:54,800 Speaker 1: I've been on a bit of a noir kick lately. 458 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:57,080 Speaker 1: I will tell you they have an amazing copy of 459 00:26:57,119 --> 00:26:59,879 Speaker 1: Carnival Souls. I've never seen that actually, and I know 460 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:01,760 Speaker 1: that's when my favorite film has been so I gotta 461 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:03,560 Speaker 1: I gotta put that on my list next. You know, 462 00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:06,199 Speaker 1: I know a lot about I know. I listened to 463 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:09,200 Speaker 1: your episode on Ephemeral. It was one of my favorites 464 00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:11,480 Speaker 1: that you guys have done. Also, the trash episode is 465 00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:14,200 Speaker 1: really good. I forgot to tell you that. Um, but yes, 466 00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:17,560 Speaker 1: Carnival Souls is actually one of the reasons that I 467 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:22,639 Speaker 1: finally ponied up the cash for criteria. Um. Everyone, Ephemeral, 468 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:25,040 Speaker 1: it is an amazing podcast. You can get it wherever 469 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:28,040 Speaker 1: you get your podcast from always be closed. Yeah you can. 470 00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:31,040 Speaker 1: We're fans, and I think, um, I think we've we've 471 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:33,399 Speaker 1: all max works on it, We've all appeared at some point, 472 00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:40,359 Speaker 1: and maybe one day Ephemeral will explore the homegrown Nazism. Dude, 473 00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:43,760 Speaker 1: this is the most cinematic of stories that we've covered 474 00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:46,080 Speaker 1: in recently. I'm surprised there's not a film based in 475 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:49,520 Speaker 1: one of these weird American Nazi summer camps. It just 476 00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:52,040 Speaker 1: feels listen to feel like an incredible setting for like 477 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:54,760 Speaker 1: a narrative film. I mean, a documentary be cool too, 478 00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:56,320 Speaker 1: but I feel like there's so many stories that could 479 00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:59,960 Speaker 1: be told. And picture the bullying and the horrible behavior 480 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:03,200 Speaker 1: you know that these kids would have exhibited, likely towards 481 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:05,520 Speaker 1: one another, because that's one thing that you're kind of 482 00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:08,720 Speaker 1: almost forced to be the hardest one. It's almost like 483 00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:12,000 Speaker 1: a prison environment. In some of these cases we mentioned 484 00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:16,000 Speaker 1: the abuse, they were also forced to do like hard labor, right, Yeah, 485 00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:18,760 Speaker 1: and imagine what these kids are taking with them back 486 00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:23,040 Speaker 1: to school, like for the ridiculous History movie Studio. I 487 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:25,560 Speaker 1: think stories do occur here. Actually, maybe I'll write a 488 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:29,399 Speaker 1: short story of a summer camp here um because I've 489 00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:32,920 Speaker 1: got the Bernstein book. But but this is a much 490 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:38,040 Speaker 1: darker film, I think already than the Trans Siberian ostrich Heist, 491 00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:41,600 Speaker 1: which I still think it's just our Oceans eleven. But 492 00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:46,440 Speaker 1: what we what we see here is that the Bund 493 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:52,120 Speaker 1: was getting less and less popular in the public eye. 494 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:55,040 Speaker 1: People were still participating in things, but they weren't talking 495 00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:58,479 Speaker 1: about it because it was no longer, you know, just 496 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:02,360 Speaker 1: an eccentric thing to be a Nazi. What you were 497 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:07,000 Speaker 1: the enemy and rightly so. And Bernstein says that the 498 00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:12,400 Speaker 1: big moment, the big death knell of the Bund, was 499 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:17,080 Speaker 1: the arrest of Fritz Kun the leader, in nineteen thirty nine. 500 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:27,120 Speaker 1: He got thrown in not for like ideological stuff, not 501 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:30,640 Speaker 1: for being a Nazi. He got put into prison for 502 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:35,640 Speaker 1: forgery and embezzlement. So class act all around, Mr k. Yeah, 503 00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:39,280 Speaker 1: and with that, you know, sounded the death knell more 504 00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:43,000 Speaker 1: or less of the Bund. And uh, the summer camps 505 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:45,760 Speaker 1: um as it all kind of went hand in hand 506 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:49,200 Speaker 1: with you know, these stories that were trickling out and Uh, 507 00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:51,960 Speaker 1: the days and weeks and months leading up to American 508 00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:54,800 Speaker 1: involvement in World War Two, the writing had been on 509 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:57,960 Speaker 1: the wall for a minute. And so of course, even 510 00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:01,120 Speaker 1: before the camps themselves were shut down, people who were 511 00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:04,040 Speaker 1: members of the Bund who maybe again we don't know 512 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:06,200 Speaker 1: what people knew when they knew it, weren't wise to 513 00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:09,280 Speaker 1: what was going on back home UH in Germany. Um. 514 00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:12,840 Speaker 1: And as the reputation of Nazism started taking a dive, 515 00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:17,200 Speaker 1: they started leaving the Bund in droves, and consequently their 516 00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:20,280 Speaker 1: kids went along with them. Of course, yeah, yeah, And 517 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:25,000 Speaker 1: so membership is declining. You could say that they ended 518 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:28,200 Speaker 1: in nineteen forty, but they've kind of continued into nineteen 519 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:31,400 Speaker 1: forty one. And by the time they ended, these were 520 00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:35,000 Speaker 1: the only people left were like, the hardcore died in 521 00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:39,480 Speaker 1: the wool Nazis, the loyalists, and the Bund officially disbanded 522 00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:42,800 Speaker 1: just a couple of days after the bombing of Pearl 523 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:46,680 Speaker 1: Harbor and the moment that Germany declared war against the 524 00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:51,800 Speaker 1: United States, which makes sense because there's only so much 525 00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:55,640 Speaker 1: you can spin with good pr and UH being a 526 00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:58,680 Speaker 1: fan club of a country that has just gone to 527 00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:02,240 Speaker 1: war with your country it's not a good look. It's 528 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:03,840 Speaker 1: not a good look. But if you do want a 529 00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:07,040 Speaker 1: good look at the chops, you can see some of 530 00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:10,200 Speaker 1: the ruins of these today. There's one, Um, there's one 531 00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:13,960 Speaker 1: in particular in Wayne, New Jersey. Right, there's a guy 532 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:17,000 Speaker 1: who's who's photographed the what's left of the camps and 533 00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:19,400 Speaker 1: you can you can see them now. They don't look 534 00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:25,080 Speaker 1: particularly um well kept. Uh, Wayne, New Jersey, home of 535 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:28,840 Speaker 1: Sopranos filming location Fountains of Wayne, which is a fountain store, 536 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:32,040 Speaker 1: also the place that the band Fountains of Wayne named 537 00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:36,480 Speaker 1: themselves after. Um. And it's interesting we have, like you said, 538 00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:39,160 Speaker 1: there's uh some posts on a website that guy Bill 539 00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:41,520 Speaker 1: Maloney has and on the website he comments on what 540 00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:44,680 Speaker 1: it felt like walking through the kind of weird, overgrown 541 00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:48,120 Speaker 1: ruins of this site, and he described it as puzzlement 542 00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:50,600 Speaker 1: and discomfort that a Hitler youth camp could be in 543 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:53,360 Speaker 1: any way acceptable in the US, even before the war. 544 00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:55,720 Speaker 1: It is especially disturbing that it is so close to 545 00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:58,480 Speaker 1: home and that the people involved would have been our neighbors. 546 00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:01,960 Speaker 1: Maybe some still are. Uh. And this is also from 547 00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:03,800 Speaker 1: that NPR piece that you mentioned. And if you want 548 00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:07,240 Speaker 1: to see pictures of uh some of these sites back 549 00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:10,480 Speaker 1: in the day at the height of their powers. Check 550 00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 1: out this article on the Atlantic American Nazis in the 551 00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:17,200 Speaker 1: nineteen thirties the German American Bund by Alan Taylor m 552 00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:21,320 Speaker 1: And As for what happened to those campers, you know, 553 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:23,920 Speaker 1: many are lost to history. You can understand why. It's 554 00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:26,880 Speaker 1: not something a bunch of people were drag about, right, 555 00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:30,120 Speaker 1: I don't think that's like a sid a grandpa's knee 556 00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:32,920 Speaker 1: and hear about the Nazi camp story. But we know 557 00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:38,160 Speaker 1: a few things about the more famous or infamous members 558 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:42,800 Speaker 1: of the German American Bund, such as Gustav Wilhelm character 559 00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:47,360 Speaker 1: who worked as a power plant designer in New York City. 560 00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:50,400 Speaker 1: He was a member of the Bund. He had been 561 00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:52,400 Speaker 1: one of the leaders at a camp in New York, 562 00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:56,600 Speaker 1: and in nineteen forty two, the FBI arrested him for 563 00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:59,720 Speaker 1: being a German spy. When people tell you who they are, 564 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:03,200 Speaker 1: you should believe them, you know. Yeah, Well, it's funny 565 00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:06,520 Speaker 1: you mentioned the whole fifth Column thing and the fact 566 00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:09,440 Speaker 1: that this whole Bund, you know, largely led to the 567 00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:12,320 Speaker 1: formation of the House on American Committee because they were 568 00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:15,200 Speaker 1: looking for people like that that we're trying to dismantle 569 00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:20,080 Speaker 1: our system from within. And it wasn't complete paranoid delusion. 570 00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:22,760 Speaker 1: You know, there were people out to do harm. But 571 00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:24,520 Speaker 1: the problem is when you paint with too broad a 572 00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:27,960 Speaker 1: brush and you create an environment of like informing on 573 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:30,480 Speaker 1: your neighbor and this sort of like you know, super 574 00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:34,960 Speaker 1: hostile paranoia, you get a lot of like um collateral damage, 575 00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:38,240 Speaker 1: even if even if your heart, your heart or whatever 576 00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:40,600 Speaker 1: is in the right place in trying to seek out 577 00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:43,520 Speaker 1: these elements that are in fact very toxic and damaging 578 00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:46,960 Speaker 1: to you know, American life. And as we know, McCarthy 579 00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:50,080 Speaker 1: was far from a perfect person. But yeah, you you're 580 00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:53,200 Speaker 1: making a great point. There is a complex situation. And 581 00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:57,960 Speaker 1: then what happened to Fritz kun Well in nine As 582 00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:01,600 Speaker 1: he said, he was convicted of embezzlement, He went to prison. 583 00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:06,840 Speaker 1: While he was in prison, the US provoked his American citizenship. 584 00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:11,080 Speaker 1: He was interned at a camp in Texas, a federal camp, 585 00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:14,640 Speaker 1: not a Nazi summer camp, and then he was later 586 00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:20,239 Speaker 1: deported to Germany. In so he made it out. But 587 00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:22,800 Speaker 1: a lot of these folks who attended these family retreats 588 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:26,880 Speaker 1: or these um summer camps as children. We don't know 589 00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:29,920 Speaker 1: who they are, and we may never know because we 590 00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:33,359 Speaker 1: still don't know exactly other than like estimates from people 591 00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:36,959 Speaker 1: like Bernstein, we don't know exactly how many people were 592 00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:40,399 Speaker 1: members of the Bund. But at this point, I think 593 00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:44,360 Speaker 1: we can all safely say Nazism is very bad. I 594 00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:46,720 Speaker 1: don't think that's I hope that's not a hot take anymore. 595 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:50,359 Speaker 1: And uh, yeah, I would I would like to think 596 00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:52,560 Speaker 1: not as well, my friend. But I think we can 597 00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:56,560 Speaker 1: also say that we're very fortunate in the US that 598 00:34:56,680 --> 00:35:00,600 Speaker 1: the public, uh and the government is imperfect as they 599 00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:04,360 Speaker 1: may be recognized the threat that this kind of stuff 600 00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:07,040 Speaker 1: could uh, this kind of stuff could hold. And now 601 00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:10,040 Speaker 1: you know, it's a question of a pendulum how far 602 00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:12,759 Speaker 1: is too far to swing because we've also you know, 603 00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:16,520 Speaker 1: we saw how HUAC went out of control, and we 604 00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:21,719 Speaker 1: know that there's been great debate before about the presence 605 00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:25,720 Speaker 1: of like militias or what this what kind of ideology 606 00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:30,040 Speaker 1: is someone's right to have versus when it becomes dangerous 607 00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:33,120 Speaker 1: or indeed seditious, you know, And I think that's a 608 00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:36,480 Speaker 1: conversation that continues today. Yeah, certainly, as like you always say, 609 00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:41,560 Speaker 1: been history as a flat circle. No way, palmssed. Yes, 610 00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:45,400 Speaker 1: history is a palimpsessed. Tell him, tell us initiated what 611 00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:48,040 Speaker 1: that word means? You can write over? So a pal 612 00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:53,680 Speaker 1: obsessed comes from the days of your when paper or 613 00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:56,200 Speaker 1: parchment or whatever you'd be writing on was like much 614 00:35:56,239 --> 00:35:58,800 Speaker 1: more expensive. Right there weren't drug stores. You can't just 615 00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:02,399 Speaker 1: go buy a college ruled notebook. Also, college ruled over, 616 00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:08,399 Speaker 1: wide ruled forever. I said it, uh take, we'll see um. So, 617 00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:12,480 Speaker 1: if you were working in an industry or you know, 618 00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:16,000 Speaker 1: this happened a lot in religious orders. You would write 619 00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:20,600 Speaker 1: something and you would need to find some more paper 620 00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:22,759 Speaker 1: to write something at a later day in time. What 621 00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:26,160 Speaker 1: you would do is you would remove the ink from 622 00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:28,319 Speaker 1: the thing you had already written on and make it 623 00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:30,520 Speaker 1: look like a blank page, and then you would just 624 00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:33,840 Speaker 1: right over where that old writing used to be. But 625 00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:37,719 Speaker 1: the impressions made by the original act of putting the 626 00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:41,040 Speaker 1: quill into the paper remains, so you could read the 627 00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:43,719 Speaker 1: message beneath it. And I think that's a wonderful analogy 628 00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:46,920 Speaker 1: for the evolution of history, kind of like in a 629 00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:49,919 Speaker 1: detective film where like the detective, you know, it takes 630 00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:52,440 Speaker 1: the notepad and the hotel room and scribbles on it 631 00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:56,359 Speaker 1: with pencil lightly so you can see the indentations of 632 00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:58,680 Speaker 1: what was written on the piece of paper above the 633 00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:02,480 Speaker 1: one that still remains. Absolutely yeah, yeah, the noir stuff 634 00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:05,719 Speaker 1: is paying off. This really is, man, This is where 635 00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:08,200 Speaker 1: oh wait, Max, Max, you gets something on your mind? 636 00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:10,680 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, I'm just thinking of a text message you 637 00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:12,719 Speaker 1: sent Nolan. I. I don't know if I can say 638 00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:17,720 Speaker 1: it on air, but earliest week about invisible ink, people 639 00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:20,000 Speaker 1: producing their own ink, and I don't think we can 640 00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:22,960 Speaker 1: go there yet. It's like it's like people are becoming 641 00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:28,239 Speaker 1: human squids. Let's just leave it at that. It's yeah, well, 642 00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:31,040 Speaker 1: spycraft is really out of the box. We'll just have 643 00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:34,880 Speaker 1: to say is if you figure in a spire tradecraft situation, 644 00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:40,239 Speaker 1: check the smell of the things you get sent. Okay, 645 00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:43,120 Speaker 1: we've gotta Yeah, this is a family show, so uh 646 00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:46,120 Speaker 1: I I suggest that we we call it a day. 647 00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:49,600 Speaker 1: We give a shout out to everybody who's been to 648 00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:53,160 Speaker 1: a weird summer camp. I'd love to hear some of 649 00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:56,319 Speaker 1: the strangest ones. You know. I was always I don't 650 00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:58,480 Speaker 1: know about you guys, but to your point about people 651 00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:02,759 Speaker 1: making friends, I was always low key envious of some 652 00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:07,400 Speaker 1: of my friends who grew up as Unitarian Universalists and 653 00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:10,680 Speaker 1: they all hung out with each other at this UU 654 00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:13,000 Speaker 1: camp and they're still all friends, and I'm like the 655 00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:15,839 Speaker 1: one guy who didn't go. You know, if I ever 656 00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:18,719 Speaker 1: had like a brush with religion in my younger days, 657 00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:20,360 Speaker 1: it was because I had some friends that went to 658 00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:23,880 Speaker 1: the Unitarian Church and they would like host like hardcore 659 00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:26,359 Speaker 1: shows and like you know, kind of alternative local rock 660 00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:29,320 Speaker 1: bands would play there, and it was just so cool 661 00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:33,120 Speaker 1: and everyone was so nice. I almost borderline wanted to 662 00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:35,839 Speaker 1: like be in that club, but I just can't make 663 00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:37,560 Speaker 1: the full buy in, even though it's like, you know, 664 00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:39,680 Speaker 1: it's one of these religions that kind of takes bits 665 00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:41,920 Speaker 1: and pieces from lots of different faiths and stuff, and 666 00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:44,480 Speaker 1: some people look at it more as like a philosophy 667 00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:47,920 Speaker 1: rather than like a full on, you know, hardcore religious beliefs. 668 00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:50,239 Speaker 1: So I always like to folks too, and lots of 669 00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:56,960 Speaker 1: atheist and agnostics who attend UH Unitarian Universalist precisely. Yeah, 670 00:38:57,080 --> 00:38:59,640 Speaker 1: and uh, we want to hear your stories of strange 671 00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:02,520 Speaker 1: summer camp experiences. Drop us a line ridiculous that I 672 00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:05,680 Speaker 1: heart media dot Com. Thanks as always to the one 673 00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:09,280 Speaker 1: and only Mr Max Williams. Thanks of course to Casey 674 00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:13,480 Speaker 1: pegram Le Bush, who has been in contact with us 675 00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:17,880 Speaker 1: regarding his activities and is doing quite well and can't 676 00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:20,520 Speaker 1: wait to chat with us on the air suit. That's 677 00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:24,000 Speaker 1: gonna happen sooner than later. Used thanks to Alex Williams 678 00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:26,880 Speaker 1: who composed this theme. Christopher Osciodas eaves, Jeff Coates here 679 00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:31,879 Speaker 1: in spirit. Jonathan Strickland, the notorious and dubious quister. It's 680 00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:35,080 Speaker 1: been a while since he's zoom bombed us, so um, 681 00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:38,080 Speaker 1: maybe we'll like, uh, you know, write our intentions on 682 00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:40,319 Speaker 1: a piece of paper and light it on fire and 683 00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:42,640 Speaker 1: put it in like, you know, some sort of ceremonial 684 00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:45,359 Speaker 1: vessel and see if he materialized. I kind of missed 685 00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:49,680 Speaker 1: the guy. Yeah yeah. Likewise, he and I are still 686 00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:53,120 Speaker 1: still taking shots at each other on Twitter. To check 687 00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:56,240 Speaker 1: that out, And uh, where can people view these Twitter 688 00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:59,200 Speaker 1: shots that are being fired? Ben? Oh? Yeah you can. 689 00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:01,759 Speaker 1: You can learn more about the research I'm doing for 690 00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:05,200 Speaker 1: any kind of secret adventures as well as misadventures over 691 00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:08,080 Speaker 1: on Twitter where I'm at Ben Bowling hs W dot com. 692 00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:10,359 Speaker 1: You can find me on Instagram where I'm at Ben 693 00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:13,759 Speaker 1: Bowling b O W L I N N. Noel, you 694 00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:16,400 Speaker 1: have an Instagram as well. I do. I have a Twitter. 695 00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:19,320 Speaker 1: It's at Embryonical. But I'm a lurker. I never post 696 00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:21,120 Speaker 1: um but I just figured I would say this, But 697 00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:23,080 Speaker 1: I don't think I'm a total lud eye. Now. I'm 698 00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:25,880 Speaker 1: mainly active on Instagram right, like to post lots of 699 00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:29,600 Speaker 1: memes and music crap that I'm working on and all 700 00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:31,600 Speaker 1: of that good stuff. And you can find that at 701 00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:35,799 Speaker 1: how Now Noel Brown, Maximilian, how about you, my man? 702 00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:39,480 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I'm on Twitter mostly lurking and trolling Ben 703 00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:43,480 Speaker 1: in the background, but I am at a t L 704 00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:48,080 Speaker 1: underscore Max Williams. He's a sinister Internet fellow. We'll see 705 00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:57,479 Speaker 1: you next time. Flix. For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, 706 00:40:57,600 --> 00:41:00,000 Speaker 1: visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or where 707 00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:01,880 Speaker 1: ever you listen to your favorite shows.