Speaker 1: My colleagues, We'll stop commenting on everything I get as
Speaker 1: people and meeting. Why does my coworker keep taking credit
Speaker 1: for all my ideas? Have any wisdom for me? Hi?
Speaker 1: I'm Alison Green. Welcome to the Aska Manager Podcast. Right
Speaker 1: answer questions from listeners about life at work, everything from
Speaker 1: what to say if you're allergic to your coworkers perfume
Speaker 1: to what to do if you drink too much at
Speaker 1: the company party. Let's get started. Being around negative people
Speaker 1: who complain all the time can be exhausting, and when
Speaker 1: that negative person is your coworker and you're trapped in
Speaker 1: an office with them, it can be really draining not
Speaker 1: to be able to get away from this constant flow
Speaker 1: of complaints. And that is the situation that today's collar
Speaker 1: is in. Hi and welcome to the show. Hi, thank
Speaker 1: you for helping me. Allison. Well, let's see you have
Speaker 1: a pretty intractable problem here, So let's see if you
Speaker 1: still feel that way at the end of the show.
Speaker 1: So you have a co worker who is incredibly negative.
Speaker 1: She's a bookkeeper who comes in a few times a month,
Speaker 1: and she shares an office with you when she does,
Speaker 1: and she complains constantly about life and about work, and
Speaker 1: to really paint a picture here. In your letter to me,
Speaker 1: you wrote that her negative rants go on and on
Speaker 1: to the point that, to quote your letter, I want
Speaker 1: to take a shower from the negativity in the room.
Speaker 1: When she leaves, I open windows and vacuum and play
Speaker 1: happy music. I'm not exaggerating, Nope. You you also wrote,
Speaker 1: I feel like this is a non consensual therapy relationship,
Speaker 1: and she just expects me to be her therapist, and
Speaker 1: you're looking for a way to set boundaries with her
Speaker 1: and maybe talk to her about the negativity without hurting
Speaker 1: her feelings, or at least in a way that is
Speaker 1: socially acceptable to say. Am I getting all that right?
Speaker 1: That is exactly right she and you know I should say,
Speaker 1: because the letter was written in a point of frustration,
Speaker 1: that she is a lovely person like overall, like I mean,
Speaker 1: she's she has such a great heart, and she's such
Speaker 1: a great human being. It's just that mindset is so
Speaker 1: negative that just some stuff comes out, and so I
Speaker 1: don't That's part of the reason. I just really don't
Speaker 1: want to hurt her feelings or I don't I want
Speaker 1: to be more socially conscious of her just because um,
Speaker 1: you know, she is lovely, just just hard to be with.
Speaker 1: It's really draining, I think, to be around someone who
Speaker 1: is just so negative, and it's especially hard at work
Speaker 1: where you need to focus and you're this trapped, captive
Speaker 1: audience who can't just walk away because you've got to
Speaker 1: sit there and try to work. How long has this
Speaker 1: been going on? This is I've been with this company
Speaker 1: for almost three years and it's twice a month for
Speaker 1: three years, um, and she'll come in for a couple
Speaker 1: of hours twice a month, which thankfully it's not every
Speaker 1: day like it was every day. I don't know if
Speaker 1: I could have stayed with the company, but like, you know,
Speaker 1: twice a month is like, but yeah, it's a while, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean it's a blessing. I guess that it's only
Speaker 1: twice a month, but if it's really intense, I bet
Speaker 1: it feels like a lot. What kinds of things does
Speaker 1: she complain about? Oh my gosh. I mean it can
Speaker 1: go from something that's going on, you know. Sometimes it's
Speaker 1: just sharing something in her life with her, you know,
Speaker 1: marriage or her household, or guests coming into stay, or
Speaker 1: her recent trip on. Sometimes it's just local news in
Speaker 1: the area. Sometimes it's national news. I mean, it's pretty
Speaker 1: much if I a conversation topic comes up, it's going
Speaker 1: to go in a negative direction. I think occasionally I'll
Speaker 1: find a couple of safe topics that she can that
Speaker 1: like it's only like semi negative, where it's not as bad.
Speaker 1: But like, sometimes she can get so worked up on
Speaker 1: stuff that she'll get emotional, even over stuff, which can
Speaker 1: be really hard to deal with when I'm trying to
Speaker 1: take calls or handle stuff at work as well. Fascinating.
Speaker 1: I feel like I've had a few people like this
Speaker 1: in my life, maybe not to this extent, because as
Speaker 1: we get into the details that you shared in your letter,
Speaker 1: I think it really sounds a lot worse than the
Speaker 1: way chronic complainers usually present. But I think in general
Speaker 1: it's so unpleasant to be around. But the thing that
Speaker 1: is fascinat aeting to me is that for the complainer,
Speaker 1: a lot of the time, it doesn't seem to be
Speaker 1: unpleasant to them at all. It's almost like they get
Speaker 1: some kind of enjoyment from the complaining, but it's not
Speaker 1: clear why. To some extent, I kind of think maybe
Speaker 1: they just have a different tolerance for unpleasant conversation. Like
Speaker 1: A really minor example of this is that my mother
Speaker 1: loves to complain about frustrating customer service experiences, Like I
Speaker 1: don't know why that's her thing, but she loves it,
Speaker 1: and she takes real joy in recounting in great detail
Speaker 1: the frustrating conversation that she had with the phone company
Speaker 1: or with the plumber. And when I say she takes
Speaker 1: joy in it, she really seems to love it, like
Speaker 1: I guess that it's venting, but with her, it seems
Speaker 1: like a form of storytelling that she finds interesting and entertaining,
Speaker 1: but which I find highly stressful to listen to. I mean,
Speaker 1: I have my own annoying customer service experiences and I
Speaker 1: don't need the stress of anyone else's. And she especially
Speaker 1: likes to call me after I've had a really long
Speaker 1: and stressful work day and launch into these lengthy diatribes.
Speaker 1: So I eventually had to ban her from doing it
Speaker 1: because it really does stress me out. And I think
Speaker 1: she was baffled by that because she doesn't find it stressful,
Speaker 1: she's entertained by talking about it, so she can't relate.
Speaker 1: So I wonder, is your sense that your coworker is
Speaker 1: sort of a happy grump in that way. I mean,
Speaker 1: I don't know that it right, that's exactly what's up.
Speaker 1: I'm glad you've pinpointed that because that's yeah, that's exactly it.
Speaker 1: And I love that too, because it's always it's always
Speaker 1: like when you know, like you really don't need it too,
Speaker 1: like you're like, you know, I really didn't need this today,
Speaker 1: like I I have. I'm working on my own stuff here.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I love your I love your story about
Speaker 1: your mom there. That's awesome because I do think there
Speaker 1: are some people where they're not a happy crump, like
Speaker 1: their energy is just all dirt clouds totally aside from
Speaker 1: the actual content of what they're saying. But then there
Speaker 1: are these people who like really do seem to take
Speaker 1: a lot of pleasure in the negative stuff that they're sharing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: absolutely fascinating. Now, when he said before that it feels
Speaker 1: like she wants you to be her therapist. Is she
Speaker 1: also like trying to get you to talk through her
Speaker 1: problems with you or does she just want someone to listen. Well,
Speaker 1: what's interesting is that she treats it like she wants
Speaker 1: me to talk through it with her, but she doesn't
Speaker 1: actually want that. So what will happen is when we
Speaker 1: are talking, I'm she'll just start on a on a
Speaker 1: monologue about something like maybe, um, you know, she had
Speaker 1: an argument with her husband the night before, so she'll
Speaker 1: start talk. She'll just be like, oh, my husband sucks.
Speaker 1: And then she'll just start arguing, like saying like we
Speaker 1: have this argument, she's so annoying and all of that,
Speaker 1: and she'll like get try to get my confirmation, Like
Speaker 1: she'll be like isn't that terrible? Like isn't that the worst? Um?
Speaker 1: And I'm just like and sometimes it's I've tried where
Speaker 1: I'm just like sure, yeah, and then like I just
Speaker 1: changed topics. Um. I do a lot of just body language.
Speaker 1: It's like I'm not interested in hearing more. Sometimes I'm like,
Speaker 1: you know, um, I don't know. It sounds like he's right.
Speaker 1: Like when I'm like just finding any way to change
Speaker 1: the subject. Sometimes I just changed the subject. But like
Speaker 1: if i'm if I'm asking her outright like how you know, well,
Speaker 1: what did you do? Like how did that happen? And
Speaker 1: she'll she'll just start making it like talking worse about it,
Speaker 1: like I don't know how to explain it completely, but
Speaker 1: like she just kind of keeps It's it's almost like
Speaker 1: she wants my confirmation about how terrible it is, but
Speaker 1: she doesn't actually want me to help her with the problem,
Speaker 1: and she just wants to vent. As you're saying it,
Speaker 1: I'm thinking how funny it would be if you actually
Speaker 1: just like double down on the negativity. I don't actually
Speaker 1: recommend this, but like, it's interesting. There was one time
Speaker 1: where we were talking um and she was complaining about
Speaker 1: some people who were visiting and they've been there for
Speaker 1: way too long. They were just kind of staying in
Speaker 1: her house and she doesn't have she's not very good
Speaker 1: at setting boundaries with people, and so what she what
Speaker 1: was happening is these people were just staying at her
Speaker 1: house and she's like, my husband's just telling me that
Speaker 1: I should just tell them to leave. And I was like,
Speaker 1: I agree with your husband, you need to tell them
Speaker 1: to leave. And she's like and she just had a
Speaker 1: huge argument with her husband over this, and she was
Speaker 1: like she just kind of gave me this like startled look,
Speaker 1: and then she just kept going like talking about how
Speaker 1: terrible it is that they're there. And I'm like, all right,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go file stuff like all right then, yeah,
Speaker 1: So it really does make me wonder that what would
Speaker 1: happen if you were like, yeah, your husband is a
Speaker 1: huge oh my gosh. Right. I think she'd just be like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I agree with you, and then she'd like tell me
Speaker 1: more stories about it. I'm like, I don't want to
Speaker 1: keep this going so alight that happen to think about it, though,
Speaker 1: Let's talk about what you have tried to do, because
Speaker 1: I know from your letter that you have tried a
Speaker 1: whole bunch of different strategies and none of them have worked.
Speaker 1: So will you run through what you've tried so far? Absolutely?
Speaker 1: I can do that. So one thing I've tried is
Speaker 1: finding some certain safe subjects that work. That's like food.
Speaker 1: For example, we can talk about food. I'm I'm I'm vegan,
Speaker 1: and she's fascinated with that, so we talk about that
Speaker 1: sometimes and she'll tell me about a restaurant she went to.
Speaker 1: I'm in Like the complainings minimal there, so it kind
Speaker 1: of makes it less negative, but it is, and actually
Speaker 1: like there's no positive subjects with her. Sometimes I'm just
Speaker 1: I make sure I'm really busy with other things, and
Speaker 1: I like save up. There's certain work that I can't
Speaker 1: do when she's there, so I just save up the
Speaker 1: work that I have to do when she's there, um,
Speaker 1: which it works okay, but sometimes she just like monologues
Speaker 1: in between, Like I'll make a phone call and I'll
Speaker 1: get off the call and then she'll just monologue at
Speaker 1: me for a little bit um while she's working, or
Speaker 1: she'll just talk to herself, like if I'm going and
Speaker 1: filing in the other room, she'll just like throw She'll
Speaker 1: be like complaining about the work she's doing, or like
Speaker 1: why does he do this? What's this? In the retorting
Speaker 1: questions that sound like she actually wants me to like
Speaker 1: jump in, but she doesn't, And I have to keep
Speaker 1: checking because I kind of need to know what she
Speaker 1: needs sometimes to take a lunch when she's there, And
Speaker 1: though it's not always, I'm not able to do it
Speaker 1: all the time. Sometimes I told you about just disagreeing
Speaker 1: with her, like, um, you know my husband should just
Speaker 1: tell them to leave, and I'm like, yeah, I agree
Speaker 1: with your husband. She just kind of moves on. I'll
Speaker 1: ask her what she you know, the big thing is
Speaker 1: the thing where she'll be complaining. I'll say, you know,
Speaker 1: what are you gonna do? About that, and she'll go,
Speaker 1: I don't know, and then she'll continue to rant, and
Speaker 1: sometimes she'll just rant about how she doesn't know what
Speaker 1: to do, but she doesn't actually want to know what
Speaker 1: to do. She just wants to complain about how she
Speaker 1: does know what to do. And then sometimes I'll say like, hey,
Speaker 1: I can't talk right now, I need to do this work.
Speaker 1: And then she, like I said earlier, she just does
Speaker 1: the little comments like she'll be working and she'll be like,
Speaker 1: why does he work it this way? Or why does
Speaker 1: this happen this way? Or you know, what's this supposed
Speaker 1: to be? And I don't know, like what I'm supposed
Speaker 1: to jump in on and what I'm not. So I'll
Speaker 1: just be listening to her talking in the other room
Speaker 1: and then she'll just yell my name, and I'll I'll
Speaker 1: jump in and I'll be like, oh right, sorry, wasn't listening.
Speaker 1: Let's take a quick break here and then come back
Speaker 1: and talk about what to do. One of the things
Speaker 1: that was so fascinating to me about your letter is
Speaker 1: that you have already tried the things that I would
Speaker 1: normally suggest that you try, and that in most cases
Speaker 1: would have some effect on the person but she is
Speaker 1: impervious to all of the normal things that you would
Speaker 1: try in this situation. The thing about asking her, so
Speaker 1: what do you plan to do about whatever negative thing
Speaker 1: she's complaining about? Sometimes can work really well because I
Speaker 1: mean clearly not here, but but sometimes it will get
Speaker 1: the person out of venting mode. And honestly, sometimes the
Speaker 1: reason it works is not because it actually shifts them
Speaker 1: into action mode, but because it makes you an unsatisfying
Speaker 1: person to vent to. Because if someone just wants to
Speaker 1: vent and they keep hearing in response, well, so what
Speaker 1: are you going to do about it? Often they will
Speaker 1: take their venting somewhere else because you're no fun to
Speaker 1: vent to at that point. But that apparently did not
Speaker 1: work with her. I learned that from you, Alison, so
Speaker 1: that's why I did it. Let you down. This is terrible.
Speaker 1: It works in other areas too, It's worked before, just
Speaker 1: not with this particular person. Okay, see, she's very she's
Speaker 1: very tricky. It's interesting. I do think there are up
Speaker 1: at different options that you can still try. Um, let's
Speaker 1: talk more about the strategy of being busy with work
Speaker 1: while she's there. So if you directly say I can't
Speaker 1: talk now, I have to focus on work, she just
Speaker 1: starts talking out loud to herself, right, yes, exactly when
Speaker 1: that happens. Have you ever tried saying, Hey, I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: but I've got to focus over here. Can I ask
Speaker 1: you not to talk to yourself while I'm working? I
Speaker 1: have not asked her to do that. Would you feel
Speaker 1: comfortable doing that? Because I think it's a reasonable thing
Speaker 1: to do, But I also know that it's the kind
Speaker 1: of thing that some people feel awkward about doing. I
Speaker 1: think she would be really annoyed with me, But I'm
Speaker 1: kind of okay with that, So, um, i'd be comfortable
Speaker 1: asking her to be quiet. It's funny, I haven't even
Speaker 1: really thought of doing that, but yeah, that's I could
Speaker 1: definitely ask her to hey, could you not talk to yourself?
Speaker 1: That would probably help that she might even do it.
Speaker 1: She just might just be really annoyed in the process.
Speaker 1: But I mean, I'm okay with that. Yeah. I think
Speaker 1: you may have to get any of these to work.
Speaker 1: You may have to accept that she's going to be
Speaker 1: a little annoyed with you, but that that's okay. I mean,
Speaker 1: her being annoyed with you is not the worst thing
Speaker 1: in the world. You're really annoyed with her, right now,
Speaker 1: that's true, spread out a little bit. Yeah. I think
Speaker 1: often people don't think to just be very direct about
Speaker 1: that because when someone is sort of already acting in
Speaker 1: a way that is outside the bounds of like the
Speaker 1: social contract that we normally have with each other about
Speaker 1: what isn't isn't okay, behavior like what she's doing is
Speaker 1: sort of outside those bounds, and I think when someone
Speaker 1: is it can be hard for the other person, you
Speaker 1: in this case, to to even know what to do
Speaker 1: because this person isn't playing by the same rules that
Speaker 1: you're used to people playing by. So I'm not surprised
Speaker 1: that it hasn't that you haven't thought, Oh, I could
Speaker 1: just ask that, but I would, I would try that,
Speaker 1: you know, say you know, hey, I'm sorry, I've got
Speaker 1: to focus over here. Can I ask you to not
Speaker 1: talk while I'm working? And then if she starts back up,
Speaker 1: and she might because I suspect it's deeply ingrained habit
Speaker 1: with her, you can remind her. I mean, you can say, Jane,
Speaker 1: I really need to focus on what I'm doing. I've
Speaker 1: got to ask you to stop doing that, and you can,
Speaker 1: you know, you can be nice about it you can.
Speaker 1: It can sound like fake, exasperated or whatever tone works
Speaker 1: for the relationship. You might need to do it a
Speaker 1: few times in order to kind of train her, maybe
Speaker 1: even more than a few times, but I bet if
Speaker 1: you did it enough, it would eventually help. That's a
Speaker 1: good point too. Yeah, And you know, it's interesting as
Speaker 1: you're saying this, because she's been doing this for a
Speaker 1: couple of years. I wonder I'm kind of wondering if
Speaker 1: maybe a big picture conversation before that might be helpful,
Speaker 1: like to talk to about hey, sometimes you know, and
Speaker 1: sometimes honestly, like there's times where I don't have as
Speaker 1: much work to do when she's there because I'm still waiting.
Speaker 1: I'm kind of waiting on her, So they're going to
Speaker 1: be times where that won't be the case. But while
Speaker 1: I'm working, maybe she'll be able to calm down or
Speaker 1: I can save up work then and do it more
Speaker 1: when she's around. So I kind of love that. And
Speaker 1: maybe even just something as as you're saying this, I'm
Speaker 1: just thinking of like, hey, like sometimes when you're talking
Speaker 1: aloud to yourself, it might be I get distracted. Could
Speaker 1: you would you mind just not talking out loud to
Speaker 1: yourself like that, it's really hard for me to focus.
Speaker 1: That's perfect, it's polite. She may still be annoyed, but
Speaker 1: it's it's really I mean, any outside observer looking at
Speaker 1: that would say that's a perfectly reasonable, polite request. It's
Speaker 1: a place of work. You know that there's a recourse
Speaker 1: that we have to make of each other. Sometimes I
Speaker 1: like the idea of you doing that kind of big
Speaker 1: picture like, hey, sometimes this is distracting, and then in
Speaker 1: the moment, if it's continuing to happen, you can say like, hey,
Speaker 1: I've got to ask you to to rain that in
Speaker 1: or hold that down, and she'll have that framework that
Speaker 1: you've already set up of understanding what you're asking. I
Speaker 1: kind of love that. It also kind of it makes
Speaker 1: the problem that she's talking and not what how negative
Speaker 1: she is, because I'm not going to change that about her.
Speaker 1: So but I can have her talk list, which is
Speaker 1: which is an improvement. So yes, absolutely, And I think
Speaker 1: I want to talk a little bit more about worrying
Speaker 1: that she might be annoyed, because I think so often
Speaker 1: that constrains people. And she's similar to yours, um where
Speaker 1: people feel like I've I've exhausted all the things that
Speaker 1: I feel polite saying, the person is still engaging in
Speaker 1: the problematic behavior, so now I'm out of options. But
Speaker 1: I think sometimes to get this kind of thing to stop,
Speaker 1: you have to get creative and not feel constrained by
Speaker 1: the same etiquette that you would follow with someone behaving
Speaker 1: more normally. And it's possible she won't even find it
Speaker 1: rude because clearly she's not using the same etiquette playbooks.
Speaker 1: But even if she does think it's a little rude
Speaker 1: or something that's okay. I mean, it's not like you're
Speaker 1: calling her a jerk. You're telling her that you need
Speaker 1: to focus on work, and you'll be doing it more
Speaker 1: assertively than you have previously. But again, I mean the
Speaker 1: reason for that is that her behavior is so out
Speaker 1: of the norm. So I think it's okay to do
Speaker 1: something that doesn't feel perfectly polite here because she's created
Speaker 1: a situation where you're sort of force too. None of
Speaker 1: that is to say that what we're talking about isn't polite.
Speaker 1: I mean, the sort of conversation that you're proposing is
Speaker 1: very polite. I think where you might start feeling less
Speaker 1: polite is if you have to do those follow up
Speaker 1: reminders where you're like, hey, you've got to keep it
Speaker 1: down over there, But that's really okay to do. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's a really good point. Um, Now if that doesn't work,
Speaker 1: because I want to be realistic that she so far
Speaker 1: has seemed immune to all reasonable tactics. M one other thing,
Speaker 1: I mean, our headphones an option you could explain at
Speaker 1: the outset, Hey have started wearing headphones because they helped
Speaker 1: me concentrate, And then maybe you could just play music
Speaker 1: and block her out while she's there. That's something I
Speaker 1: would have done, except that I'm it's just not an
Speaker 1: option where she is so because I have to take
Speaker 1: calls at the other So I switched desks and all
Speaker 1: my music and anything I would normally play because I'm
Speaker 1: I'm very fortunately get to work alone a lot at
Speaker 1: the time, so I play music all the time in
Speaker 1: the office, but I don't get to I don't get
Speaker 1: to do that when she's there. So got it? Okay? Um, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm it might be that at some point you've got
Speaker 1: to figure you can cut down on some of this
Speaker 1: by telling her directly, but that there's always going to
Speaker 1: be something that you can't get away from. If you
Speaker 1: need to interact with her. But taking it from like
Speaker 1: if it's a ten, now, taking it down to a
Speaker 1: four would probably still be a huge improvement in your
Speaker 1: quality of lice. Yeah, especially because it's only twice a month,
Speaker 1: Like you know, tend to a four. I can work
Speaker 1: with the four. So we'll pause here for a quick
Speaker 1: break and then we'll be right back. So we were
Speaker 1: talking about addressing it head on, about the talking, but
Speaker 1: I think potentially you could also address the negativity. Like
Speaker 1: I would start with just the talking piece of it
Speaker 1: and see where that gets you. If that gets you
Speaker 1: down to a four, then great, But if she if
Speaker 1: it doesn't really take care of the problem, and there's
Speaker 1: still lots of negativity being exuded into your space, and
Speaker 1: you want to talk about the negativity. In theory, I'm
Speaker 1: hesitating here because if you were around her daily, I
Speaker 1: would say to definitely do what I'm about to advise.
Speaker 1: Since you're not, I don't know that it's worth it.
Speaker 1: But in theory, at some point you could say something
Speaker 1: to her like, hey, I don't know if you realize
Speaker 1: how often you've vent here about things that you feel
Speaker 1: really negatively about. But it's a lot and it can
Speaker 1: be really tough to work around that. And you know,
Speaker 1: I try to keep a more positive energy in here
Speaker 1: and always being so negative as making my own job unpleasant.
Speaker 1: But you know, as I'm saying this, I feel like
Speaker 1: it's maybe too much for someone who's just in there
Speaker 1: a few times a month. It might be, although it
Speaker 1: could help if she gets really on a roll like
Speaker 1: where she's really getting negative, I can kind of stop
Speaker 1: and say, hey, you know, like we're kind of trying
Speaker 1: to work here and this is getting into a really
Speaker 1: negative space, and um, you know, I totally get that
Speaker 1: you're in paining of stuff going on, but you know,
Speaker 1: maybe you need to go and find figure out. Like
Speaker 1: you know, I don't want to say like go get
Speaker 1: professional help, but find a way to say, like, hey,
Speaker 1: like if you need somewhere to event like this, this
Speaker 1: is not something that I'm trained to do. Um, you know,
Speaker 1: and I can say it like that even and you
Speaker 1: know she's probably going to hate that, but like, you know,
Speaker 1: if if she's feeling the need to come and have
Speaker 1: a non consensual therapist, maybe she needs a real therapist,
Speaker 1: which she does not have. So you know, that might
Speaker 1: be something to say. But I think that's something I
Speaker 1: would need to be really careful with it to be
Speaker 1: about timing, especially so I don't even know that I
Speaker 1: would say it, but like that might be something to
Speaker 1: just have ready to go in my mind. I love
Speaker 1: so much about what you just said, for I think
Speaker 1: the wording itself is really good and that sort of
Speaker 1: general concept and I'll so your point about timing but
Speaker 1: have is exactly right. But thinking it through beforehand, like
Speaker 1: thinking if I, if there ever is an opening to
Speaker 1: say this, how do I want to say it? Then
Speaker 1: if there is that opening, you're ready to go and
Speaker 1: you're not just kind of winging it, because I think
Speaker 1: with these trickier conversations, if you do just wing it
Speaker 1: in the moment, sometimes it comes out really differently than
Speaker 1: than how you want to do. So No, but I
Speaker 1: think I think that's great, and I think there's there's
Speaker 1: a less warmal option to which is just like Jane,
Speaker 1: I can't handle the negativity today, and I'm banning you
Speaker 1: from negative topics while you're here. So I love that
Speaker 1: that would be good because she totally she'd probably laugh
Speaker 1: and then like we'd be over it, and then she
Speaker 1: get negatively, Hey, exactly, Yes, I kind of love that
Speaker 1: that might help too, So you could try that, and
Speaker 1: that doesn't make it like a big thing, Like now
Speaker 1: I'm having this serious conversation with you, you're just kind
Speaker 1: of throwing it off, and it's it's hard to argue
Speaker 1: with that. You know, what's she gonna say? Like, no,
Speaker 1: I will talk about negative topics while I'm here. I
Speaker 1: love that. That would probably make a huge difference. Oh good, Okay,
Speaker 1: so there's something to definitely try. And really, I mean
Speaker 1: like if you do say it and then you feel
Speaker 1: kind of rude having said it, it might get through
Speaker 1: to her where nothing else is. And again, like she's
Speaker 1: the one who's being rude here, so you don't need
Speaker 1: to dance around it out of politeness. Yeah, and I
Speaker 1: mean it might be helpfully you know how of a
Speaker 1: place that she goes twice a month where instead of
Speaker 1: she's just venting, it becomes like a happy place to
Speaker 1: go where we just have fun. So and I imagine
Speaker 1: she doesn't have I know that a lot of friends
Speaker 1: don't spend a lot of time with her because of this.
Speaker 1: This is her whole life. So maybe just having twice
Speaker 1: a month where we can have fun, this might be
Speaker 1: it might be good for her, and I suspect you
Speaker 1: will have to do those reminders a bunch, you know.
Speaker 1: I don't think you're going to say it once and
Speaker 1: it's going to be solved. I think it's you're going
Speaker 1: to have to keep it up. But if you can
Speaker 1: do it in kind of a fun, joking way where
Speaker 1: she doesn't, it doesn't feel like a personal attack. You're
Speaker 1: just like, hey, we're negativity free in this space today,
Speaker 1: maybe it'll work. The other stuff I wanted to mention
Speaker 1: to look at is just whether there are changes that
Speaker 1: you can make to the physical environment, like do you
Speaker 1: have to be in the same space as her, does
Speaker 1: she have to come into the office at all, that
Speaker 1: sort of stuff. In terms of changing the physical environment.
Speaker 1: My boss is very understanding, and there's been I've done
Speaker 1: a couple of things in that area that wasn't in
Speaker 1: my original list that I sent you, which was He's
Speaker 1: just very He's so supportive of this. UM. I think
Speaker 1: he when I first came in, UM, there was a
Speaker 1: point where he he noticed that I was because sometimes
Speaker 1: he'll send me on errands out of the office, where
Speaker 1: I was kind of asking, hey, do you have any errands?
Speaker 1: Right before she'd come in and he kind of picked
Speaker 1: up and he was like, how do you like working
Speaker 1: with with Jane? And I'm like, uh, well, it's kind
Speaker 1: of Tubby's like try again. I'm like, she's one of
Speaker 1: the most negative people I've ever met, and he's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I totally get that. I'm the same way and um,
Speaker 1: and so he actually if he has something for me
Speaker 1: to do, he usually tries to set it for when
Speaker 1: she's around to have me go out. And that's kind
Speaker 1: of why I've taken lunch is there too, because it
Speaker 1: gives me a break and then but like she has
Speaker 1: to come in the office and the way that it's
Speaker 1: set up is the same. Though. I'm really fortunate that
Speaker 1: there are there is an angle where I could be
Speaker 1: talking to my boss too, because he's i mean, even
Speaker 1: just the last last week, I went on a break
Speaker 1: and he needed me to do something. As I was
Speaker 1: coming back for my break, and he was on the
Speaker 1: phone with me outside of the office and he was like,
Speaker 1: I can hear in your voice you're frustrated. Take longer break,
Speaker 1: And he's like, don't go back to the office till
Speaker 1: like half an hour from now, and just gave me
Speaker 1: a free paid break and basically it was like, just
Speaker 1: don't worry about it, and it's he's very good about
Speaker 1: paying attention to work life balance that way, and just
Speaker 1: just like, don't worry about it. It's cool that way,
Speaker 1: you can be in a good space by the time
Speaker 1: she leaves. And he was totally helpful. So that's probably
Speaker 1: the closest thing to changes that could be made, got it.
Speaker 1: I like your boss at least in this right. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he's great, he's so Yeah, he's awesome. Yeah. I mean
Speaker 1: if she were, if she were daily and you were
Speaker 1: having to do this daily, I would be really curious
Speaker 1: about why he keeps her on because I would say
Speaker 1: this is worth changing bookkeepers over. But I can kind
Speaker 1: of see it if he doesn't have that much interaction
Speaker 1: and you're with a great bookkeeper, Yeah, I mean what
Speaker 1: she's she's technically fantastic and she doesn't interact with anybody
Speaker 1: with me, so she's pretty great for everyone else. Then
Speaker 1: it's not anything. I mean, he calls, he always calls,
Speaker 1: he takes what I've noticed, he has one phone call
Speaker 1: he makes to her every time she comes, and he
Speaker 1: like he listens and talks to her, and she does
Speaker 1: the same thing with him on the phone with me
Speaker 1: right there, I'll listen to I'll hear it, and uh yeah,
Speaker 1: he does one and then he's done, and that he
Speaker 1: doesn't pick up calls from the office except he knows
Speaker 1: I'm in there, So I think he has the same problem.
Speaker 1: People are very strange. Well, so that's basically my advice.
Speaker 1: Under ordinary circumstances, I would have a lot of confidence
Speaker 1: in it, except that, because you have tried all of
Speaker 1: these other very logical things to try without success, I
Speaker 1: am less confident in it than I normally would be.
Speaker 1: But I think that because this is about really directly
Speaker 1: telling her, like, hey, I need you to cut this out.
Speaker 1: Maybe it'll go better than the previous things have. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and you know, I kind of said even before we
Speaker 1: started recording that, like, if the answer to this was
Speaker 1: you know, there's no option here, you're just going to
Speaker 1: have to deal with it twice a month and be
Speaker 1: like I told you, I was like, it's fine if
Speaker 1: that's the result, because I totally get this is really
Speaker 1: a more difficult situation. But I feel like what you've
Speaker 1: given me is really helpful because, um, it's something that
Speaker 1: can at least make it better, which is totally great
Speaker 1: because you know it is only twice a month and
Speaker 1: we can I can always make it a little bring
Speaker 1: it from a ten to a four, and that's going
Speaker 1: to make a huge difference. Good. And I think that's
Speaker 1: a healthy attitude to have about its manager expectations. Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank
Speaker 1: you for having me. This is so helpful. Thanks for
Speaker 1: listening to the Ask a Manager Podcast. If you'd like
Speaker 1: to come on the show to talk through your own question,
Speaker 1: email it to podcast at Asking Manager dot org, or
Speaker 1: you can leave a recording of your question by calling
Speaker 1: eight five five six work. That's eight five five f
Speaker 1: T six nine seven five. You can get more ask
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Speaker 1: week with another one of your questions. M.