1 00:00:15,410 --> 00:00:24,610 Speaker 1: Pushkin. They're exhausted. Many haven't slept properly for days, but 2 00:00:24,730 --> 00:00:29,570 Speaker 1: the fraud talks go round and round. Thirty people have 3 00:00:29,690 --> 00:00:34,290 Speaker 1: been hospitalized from overwork. The interpreters are about to leave. 4 00:00:34,970 --> 00:00:38,610 Speaker 1: World leaders are making each other cry. Others are threatening 5 00:00:38,650 --> 00:00:45,170 Speaker 1: to walk out. Welcome to the Kyoto International Conference Center. 6 00:00:46,050 --> 00:00:50,730 Speaker 1: It's December nineteen ninety seven, and for ten long days, 7 00:00:51,130 --> 00:00:55,050 Speaker 1: representatives from one hundred and fifty eight nations have been 8 00:00:55,090 --> 00:00:59,450 Speaker 1: in the ancient Japanese city trying to strike the world's 9 00:00:59,530 --> 00:01:07,530 Speaker 1: first legally binding climate agreement. This is the third conference 10 00:01:07,690 --> 00:01:13,610 Speaker 1: of the Parties. COP three, an alliance of small islands, 11 00:01:13,650 --> 00:01:16,410 Speaker 1: makes the case for swift action in the face of 12 00:01:16,530 --> 00:01:21,290 Speaker 1: rising sea levels. Oil producing countries demand compensation for potential 13 00:01:21,330 --> 00:01:26,290 Speaker 1: loss of income. Developed nations express concern about the economic 14 00:01:26,370 --> 00:01:29,890 Speaker 1: impact of moving away from fossil fuels, while delegates from 15 00:01:29,930 --> 00:01:33,530 Speaker 1: developing countries argue they shouldn't be held responsible for the 16 00:01:33,570 --> 00:01:37,730 Speaker 1: mess made by the industrialized West. There are breakout sessions, 17 00:01:38,010 --> 00:01:44,290 Speaker 1: huddles and corridors, walkouts, squabbles about wording and punctuation, and 18 00:01:44,410 --> 00:01:51,730 Speaker 1: ultimately stasis. Now it's three pm on the final day 19 00:01:51,930 --> 00:01:58,090 Speaker 1: of the conference. Delegates are dropping like flies. Raoul Estrada 20 00:01:58,250 --> 00:02:04,170 Speaker 1: o Uela, the Argentinian diplomat chairing COP three, has disappeared 21 00:02:04,850 --> 00:02:10,130 Speaker 1: and no targets have been agreed. Don Hurlman, lobbyists for 22 00:02:10,250 --> 00:02:15,730 Speaker 1: the oil companies, rubs his hands with glee. I'm Tim Harford, 23 00:02:16,130 --> 00:02:42,850 Speaker 1: and you're listening to portionary tales right now. Delegates from 24 00:02:42,890 --> 00:02:47,490 Speaker 1: around the world are meeting in Belame, Brazil for COP thirty. 25 00:02:48,410 --> 00:02:52,730 Speaker 1: There they'll seek to reinforce global cooperation and seek to 26 00:02:52,850 --> 00:02:58,290 Speaker 1: speed up the implementation of existing UN climate agreements and commitments. 27 00:02:58,930 --> 00:03:03,010 Speaker 1: But audiences in New York are being invited to go 28 00:03:03,090 --> 00:03:04,130 Speaker 1: back in time. 29 00:03:04,890 --> 00:03:07,210 Speaker 2: I think we're going to agree on one thing. The 30 00:03:07,290 --> 00:03:11,330 Speaker 2: times you live in are truly awful. There's food shortages, 31 00:03:11,530 --> 00:03:16,490 Speaker 2: runaway inflation, culture wars, real wars, brace riots, fake news, 32 00:03:16,570 --> 00:03:21,290 Speaker 2: consain insurrections, global pandemics, and on top of all of that, 33 00:03:22,890 --> 00:03:26,410 Speaker 2: a planet in a literal meltdown. And if you're a 34 00:03:26,410 --> 00:03:29,530 Speaker 2: guy like me looking at a time like now, the 35 00:03:29,610 --> 00:03:33,450 Speaker 2: main thing you think is wow, Man, the nineteen nineties 36 00:03:33,490 --> 00:03:34,610 Speaker 2: were freaking glorious. 37 00:03:38,810 --> 00:03:43,170 Speaker 1: That was Don Perlman, as played by Stephen Counkan in 38 00:03:43,210 --> 00:03:48,810 Speaker 1: the play Kyoto about the historic Third COP After sellout 39 00:03:48,890 --> 00:03:52,530 Speaker 1: runs in Stratford upon Avon and London, the Royal Shakespeare 40 00:03:52,530 --> 00:03:56,210 Speaker 1: Company's production is currently on stage at the Lincoln Center 41 00:03:56,410 --> 00:04:00,610 Speaker 1: in New York. Kyoto was written by Joe Robertson and 42 00:04:00,730 --> 00:04:04,250 Speaker 1: Joe Murphy, and I am delighted to say that Joe 43 00:04:04,290 --> 00:04:08,090 Speaker 1: Robertson is with me now. Joe, welcome to Cause Retales. 44 00:04:08,450 --> 00:04:10,770 Speaker 3: Thank you so much him. It's an absolute pleasure. Huge 45 00:04:10,770 --> 00:04:12,490 Speaker 3: fan of the podcast and of all your work, So 46 00:04:12,570 --> 00:04:13,290 Speaker 3: thanks for having us. 47 00:04:13,370 --> 00:04:15,850 Speaker 1: Oh, it's a pleasure. It's terrific to have you on 48 00:04:15,890 --> 00:04:20,650 Speaker 1: the show. So the inner machinations of an international climate conference. 49 00:04:21,130 --> 00:04:25,450 Speaker 1: I don't scream theatrical thriller, but that is what you've created. 50 00:04:25,570 --> 00:04:28,210 Speaker 1: So how did you come across this story and what 51 00:04:28,330 --> 00:04:29,930 Speaker 1: convinced you of the dramatic potential. 52 00:04:30,370 --> 00:04:33,650 Speaker 3: We had an interest in polarization. This was a good 53 00:04:33,690 --> 00:04:36,250 Speaker 3: few years ago now and looking around at a sort 54 00:04:36,290 --> 00:04:40,730 Speaker 3: of coarsening public discourse and an ever more divided society 55 00:04:41,250 --> 00:04:46,170 Speaker 3: where conversation felt, you know, more strained and more difficult 56 00:04:46,170 --> 00:04:48,650 Speaker 3: to have, and we wanted to write about that and 57 00:04:48,650 --> 00:04:50,530 Speaker 3: find a way of talking about that in a dramatic 58 00:04:50,530 --> 00:04:53,570 Speaker 3: and exciting way, and actually stumbled on the story of 59 00:04:53,650 --> 00:04:59,330 Speaker 3: Kyoto by accident, and we're immediately inspired by this parable 60 00:04:59,370 --> 00:05:02,250 Speaker 3: of agreement, and it felt to us like that spoke 61 00:05:02,890 --> 00:05:06,530 Speaker 3: quite amazingly to this very divided world that we live in. 62 00:05:06,570 --> 00:05:08,090 Speaker 3: You know, how do you get that many people to 63 00:05:08,130 --> 00:05:13,130 Speaker 3: agree on any let't alone something as difficult and contentious 64 00:05:11,610 --> 00:05:16,290 Speaker 3: as laws and climate laws, which have tentacles in every 65 00:05:16,330 --> 00:05:19,130 Speaker 3: part of our society. Now, at that point, we didn't 66 00:05:19,130 --> 00:05:21,290 Speaker 3: know it'd make an exciting play, but we've started talking 67 00:05:21,290 --> 00:05:24,370 Speaker 3: to people who were involved, to diplomats and delegates and 68 00:05:24,450 --> 00:05:28,610 Speaker 3: ministers and scientists from many countries and from all across 69 00:05:28,650 --> 00:05:30,890 Speaker 3: the divide, and in every one of those conversations were 70 00:05:30,930 --> 00:05:33,490 Speaker 3: struck by the drama and the emotion and the jeopardy 71 00:05:33,530 --> 00:05:36,370 Speaker 3: of these negotiations to often go on till early in 72 00:05:36,450 --> 00:05:40,130 Speaker 3: the morning, the intrigue, the back corridor deals, but above 73 00:05:40,210 --> 00:05:43,770 Speaker 3: all a real dedication and devotion and pride in what 74 00:05:43,810 --> 00:05:46,490 Speaker 3: they do. And that then inspired us to go, if 75 00:05:46,490 --> 00:05:48,450 Speaker 3: we can translate that and put it on a stage, 76 00:05:48,570 --> 00:05:50,730 Speaker 3: that might be a really great thing to do as writers. 77 00:05:51,410 --> 00:05:54,090 Speaker 1: The conference is nineteen ninety seven, end of nineteen ninety seven, 78 00:05:54,090 --> 00:05:56,970 Speaker 1: but the play begins a little earlier. Than that. So 79 00:05:57,050 --> 00:06:01,930 Speaker 1: the end of the Reagan administration conversations happening around nineteen 80 00:06:02,050 --> 00:06:07,250 Speaker 1: ninety just paint us a picture of the climate conversation 81 00:06:07,890 --> 00:06:09,050 Speaker 1: in the early nineteen nineties. 82 00:06:09,650 --> 00:06:11,970 Speaker 3: During the nineteen eighties it had started to really really 83 00:06:12,010 --> 00:06:14,770 Speaker 3: gather pace. There was a big summit in Villias in 84 00:06:14,810 --> 00:06:17,810 Speaker 3: the Austrian Alps with leading scientists coming together in the 85 00:06:17,890 --> 00:06:20,330 Speaker 3: late eighties, you know, with great concerns about what the 86 00:06:20,370 --> 00:06:23,050 Speaker 3: climate models and the meteorological models were showing about a 87 00:06:23,090 --> 00:06:26,570 Speaker 3: warming world, and there was a great deal of suspicion 88 00:06:26,650 --> 00:06:30,290 Speaker 3: that man made omissions were influencing those trends that they 89 00:06:30,290 --> 00:06:32,890 Speaker 3: were seeing and odd of that group then was formed 90 00:06:33,410 --> 00:06:37,050 Speaker 3: in nineteen eighty eight, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, 91 00:06:37,370 --> 00:06:40,610 Speaker 3: which was a un body that was tasked with bringing 92 00:06:40,610 --> 00:06:43,570 Speaker 3: together all the available science at that time and producing 93 00:06:43,570 --> 00:06:45,930 Speaker 3: the sort of report that they could then share with 94 00:06:46,090 --> 00:06:48,930 Speaker 3: governments and ministers all around the world, you know, with 95 00:06:48,970 --> 00:06:51,490 Speaker 3: their summary of the best available evidence and their advice 96 00:06:51,530 --> 00:06:53,370 Speaker 3: about you know, how much of a problem this really 97 00:06:53,450 --> 00:06:56,050 Speaker 3: was to worry about. Although there was strong evidence there 98 00:06:56,090 --> 00:06:58,090 Speaker 3: wasn't a smoking gun, there was a lot of work 99 00:06:58,130 --> 00:07:00,410 Speaker 3: going on to try and understand it, you know, with 100 00:07:00,530 --> 00:07:03,130 Speaker 3: nascent computer models to try and to try and figure out. 101 00:07:03,210 --> 00:07:05,290 Speaker 1: Yeah, climate's complicated, you know, even. 102 00:07:05,130 --> 00:07:07,890 Speaker 3: Today, there are trillions and trillions of inputs. It's a vast, 103 00:07:08,010 --> 00:07:11,610 Speaker 3: vast system, you know. Distilling the evidence into a clear 104 00:07:11,650 --> 00:07:14,090 Speaker 3: thing that not only they can understand, but that everyone 105 00:07:14,090 --> 00:07:16,570 Speaker 3: can understand is sort of one of the major problems 106 00:07:16,570 --> 00:07:17,810 Speaker 3: at the heart of this discussion. 107 00:07:17,850 --> 00:07:20,650 Speaker 1: I think you've told the caution metale really and what 108 00:07:20,650 --> 00:07:23,330 Speaker 1: we do on caution detales is we try to find 109 00:07:23,370 --> 00:07:26,370 Speaker 1: some vivid character at the heart of the story that 110 00:07:26,410 --> 00:07:29,290 Speaker 1: will help us bring it out of the realms of 111 00:07:29,330 --> 00:07:33,010 Speaker 1: the abstract and to really introduce a figure that can 112 00:07:33,450 --> 00:07:36,610 Speaker 1: help our listeners understand the story and they can follow 113 00:07:36,810 --> 00:07:40,370 Speaker 1: the decisions of this person. The person you chose, I 114 00:07:40,370 --> 00:07:44,010 Speaker 1: think is quite interesting. You chose a man called Don Perlman, 115 00:07:44,050 --> 00:07:47,450 Speaker 1: who's a real person, but he wasn't an environmentalist, he 116 00:07:47,490 --> 00:07:51,730 Speaker 1: wasn't a politician. He was a lobbyist for the oil industry. 117 00:07:51,930 --> 00:07:56,210 Speaker 1: So might choose him as the person through whose eyes 118 00:07:56,250 --> 00:07:57,650 Speaker 1: you're viewing much of the story. 119 00:07:57,970 --> 00:08:00,050 Speaker 3: You know, as we were researching and we spoke to 120 00:08:00,210 --> 00:08:02,770 Speaker 3: scores of people, read every book and sort of report 121 00:08:02,770 --> 00:08:05,330 Speaker 3: that we could find, learned the language and the lingo 122 00:08:05,410 --> 00:08:08,010 Speaker 3: of climate and of the un It's a lot of acronyms, 123 00:08:08,330 --> 00:08:11,290 Speaker 3: and we kept discover this name, Don Pulman, often in footnotes, 124 00:08:11,330 --> 00:08:14,090 Speaker 3: often as sort of vague references. There's not much about 125 00:08:14,170 --> 00:08:17,370 Speaker 3: him online or in the literature. And the more we 126 00:08:17,370 --> 00:08:19,690 Speaker 3: spoke to people, the more we understood that he wasn't 127 00:08:20,090 --> 00:08:23,490 Speaker 3: an American lobbyist. He'd worked in the Reagan administration and 128 00:08:23,530 --> 00:08:26,170 Speaker 3: the Department of Energy under Don Hodell as a sort 129 00:08:26,210 --> 00:08:30,050 Speaker 3: of chief of staff, and after George HW. Bush's election, 130 00:08:30,370 --> 00:08:33,890 Speaker 3: went into the private sector and started representing a wide array, 131 00:08:33,930 --> 00:08:38,730 Speaker 3: although basically unknown, group of oil companies and oil producing states. 132 00:08:38,890 --> 00:08:43,010 Speaker 3: And he was an absolutely brilliant strategist, a brilliant lawyer, 133 00:08:43,050 --> 00:08:45,890 Speaker 3: a brilliant mind. Because we wanted to write a story 134 00:08:45,890 --> 00:08:48,850 Speaker 3: about agreement and a story about climate, which is often 135 00:08:49,650 --> 00:08:51,610 Speaker 3: it can be earnest and it can be serious, and 136 00:08:51,650 --> 00:08:55,050 Speaker 3: it can be you know, lofty, the idea of writing 137 00:08:56,050 --> 00:08:58,370 Speaker 3: a story of agreement told through the lens of this 138 00:08:58,450 --> 00:09:01,250 Speaker 3: agent of disagreement at the heart of it felt like 139 00:09:01,450 --> 00:09:04,690 Speaker 3: quite an exciting dramatic device that could undermine some of 140 00:09:04,690 --> 00:09:09,330 Speaker 3: that earnestness but also show what he and other lobbyists 141 00:09:09,490 --> 00:09:12,850 Speaker 3: like him back then, but also to this day, how 142 00:09:12,930 --> 00:09:17,050 Speaker 3: they operate within the multilateral systems which decide everything from 143 00:09:17,050 --> 00:09:20,050 Speaker 3: climate to trade to you know, you name it. How 144 00:09:20,090 --> 00:09:23,290 Speaker 3: they operate within those systems to obfuscate and stall and 145 00:09:23,410 --> 00:09:26,650 Speaker 3: direct the outcome of those negotiations. And there are not 146 00:09:26,690 --> 00:09:30,890 Speaker 3: many people as effective as Don Palman doing that. He 147 00:09:31,010 --> 00:09:33,730 Speaker 3: really was a thorn in the side of those trying 148 00:09:33,770 --> 00:09:36,530 Speaker 3: to find a way to move the world forward. At 149 00:09:36,570 --> 00:09:37,130 Speaker 3: that time. 150 00:09:37,650 --> 00:09:39,930 Speaker 1: You can't look away from him on stage. It's it's 151 00:09:39,930 --> 00:09:43,410 Speaker 1: a fantastic performance. I come at this from a slightly 152 00:09:43,410 --> 00:09:46,730 Speaker 1: different angle, which is for my book The Data Detective, 153 00:09:46,930 --> 00:09:52,050 Speaker 1: It became very interested in misinformation and disinformation and the 154 00:09:52,130 --> 00:09:56,330 Speaker 1: fact that some of these tactics were first used by 155 00:09:56,770 --> 00:09:59,930 Speaker 1: the tobacco industry. Who I mean, it's not quite the 156 00:09:59,930 --> 00:10:01,930 Speaker 1: same problem, but it's a similar problem, which is like, 157 00:10:02,250 --> 00:10:05,650 Speaker 1: there's an emerging scientific and census that your products are 158 00:10:05,730 --> 00:10:10,450 Speaker 1: killing your customers, although you know, what is the science, 159 00:10:10,610 --> 00:10:12,570 Speaker 1: what is a consensus? All of this sort of stuff. 160 00:10:12,970 --> 00:10:15,610 Speaker 1: And I was quite struck by the fact that John 161 00:10:15,650 --> 00:10:19,530 Speaker 1: Perlman in the play, his wife in her closing monologue, 162 00:10:20,490 --> 00:10:22,250 Speaker 1: says that he thrives on uncertainty. 163 00:10:23,250 --> 00:10:25,930 Speaker 3: I mean, you know, you spoke about punctuation earlier. It's 164 00:10:25,930 --> 00:10:28,490 Speaker 3: all about the question mark. You know, He and his 165 00:10:28,530 --> 00:10:31,210 Speaker 3: associates didn't need to present a sort of a coherent 166 00:10:31,250 --> 00:10:34,210 Speaker 3: idea of the science that conflicted with the ones that 167 00:10:34,250 --> 00:10:36,530 Speaker 3: the UN scientists and scientists around the world were trying 168 00:10:36,530 --> 00:10:38,570 Speaker 3: to formulate. It just needed to be a question mark. 169 00:10:38,610 --> 00:10:41,730 Speaker 3: And that was enough to sew doubt in a subject 170 00:10:41,810 --> 00:10:44,810 Speaker 3: as dense and as opaic as climate, where it's hard 171 00:10:44,930 --> 00:10:48,290 Speaker 3: enough to you know, for climate scientists to understand what's 172 00:10:48,330 --> 00:10:51,810 Speaker 3: going on, it's very easy to sew that down and 173 00:10:51,810 --> 00:10:55,610 Speaker 3: sew that discord. You know, uncertainty is very fertile soil 174 00:10:55,730 --> 00:10:59,290 Speaker 3: for someone as smart and as brilliant as Don Perlman 175 00:10:59,330 --> 00:11:00,010 Speaker 3: to operate in. 176 00:11:00,250 --> 00:11:03,170 Speaker 1: Yeah, the people who are hearing the message smoking will 177 00:11:03,210 --> 00:11:05,490 Speaker 1: give you countcer, smoking will give you heart disease. All 178 00:11:05,530 --> 00:11:08,050 Speaker 1: these fossil fuels they're warming the planet that will lead 179 00:11:08,090 --> 00:11:11,490 Speaker 1: to extreme weather. You listen to that and and you 180 00:11:11,530 --> 00:11:15,610 Speaker 1: think to yourself, do I have to believe that? Or 181 00:11:15,850 --> 00:11:18,130 Speaker 1: is there some room for doubt? And who wants to 182 00:11:18,170 --> 00:11:20,050 Speaker 1: believe it? Who wants to believe the cigarettes are killing them? 183 00:11:20,050 --> 00:11:22,930 Speaker 1: Who wants to believe that they can't fly on holiday 184 00:11:23,010 --> 00:11:25,250 Speaker 1: or drive their car anymore. You don't want to believe that. 185 00:11:25,890 --> 00:11:28,610 Speaker 1: So very often people are just desperate to find a 186 00:11:28,650 --> 00:11:32,410 Speaker 1: reason to delay, not even necessarily to do nothing, but 187 00:11:32,450 --> 00:11:33,690 Speaker 1: to do nothing. 188 00:11:33,690 --> 00:11:37,330 Speaker 3: Yet absolutely, and that applies in our personal lives in 189 00:11:37,410 --> 00:11:40,690 Speaker 3: terms of our behavior, but also on a global multilateral level. 190 00:11:41,130 --> 00:11:44,010 Speaker 3: I was talking to Tim Latimer, who's a US climate negotiator. 191 00:11:44,050 --> 00:11:45,450 Speaker 3: He came to see the show the other day and 192 00:11:45,810 --> 00:11:49,570 Speaker 3: now teachers negotiation, and he was saying, imagine getting one 193 00:11:49,650 --> 00:11:51,930 Speaker 3: hundred and seventy people in a room and asking them 194 00:11:51,970 --> 00:11:54,610 Speaker 3: to agree on where to go for dinner. Yeah, with 195 00:11:54,650 --> 00:11:57,890 Speaker 3: all their dietary requirements and their intolerances and analogies and 196 00:11:57,930 --> 00:12:00,730 Speaker 3: preferences and cuisines. How impossible it would be to choose 197 00:12:00,730 --> 00:12:02,850 Speaker 3: a restaurant Now times out by a million. When each 198 00:12:02,890 --> 00:12:06,970 Speaker 3: person is representing millions, potentially hundreds of millions of people, 199 00:12:07,090 --> 00:12:11,210 Speaker 3: and these vast complicated, inter connected economies and societies which 200 00:12:11,210 --> 00:12:13,610 Speaker 3: are hard to change at the best of times. Then 201 00:12:13,650 --> 00:12:17,970 Speaker 3: what you're phasing is this impossible task of bringing about agreement. 202 00:12:18,330 --> 00:12:21,290 Speaker 3: And so you throw someone like Don Perlman or these 203 00:12:21,330 --> 00:12:25,690 Speaker 3: other lobbyists into those scenarios. It becomes very easy in 204 00:12:25,730 --> 00:12:28,850 Speaker 3: a way for those negotiations to be deraled because of 205 00:12:28,930 --> 00:12:32,290 Speaker 3: the impossibility of the outcome that is desired. 206 00:12:33,050 --> 00:12:36,570 Speaker 1: Well, Don Perlman and lobbyists like him didn't get things 207 00:12:36,730 --> 00:12:40,290 Speaker 1: all their own way. After the break, we will talk 208 00:12:40,330 --> 00:12:43,330 Speaker 1: about some of the tactics that they used, but we 209 00:12:43,370 --> 00:12:47,330 Speaker 1: will also be talking about how the small island nations 210 00:12:47,890 --> 00:12:57,810 Speaker 1: found their voice to fight back. Stay with us. We're 211 00:12:57,850 --> 00:13:01,250 Speaker 1: back and I'm talking to Joe Robertson, the co writer 212 00:13:01,450 --> 00:13:05,970 Speaker 1: of the hit play Kyoto. Joe, one of the challenges 213 00:13:06,090 --> 00:13:10,930 Speaker 1: both for people seeking consensus on climate, but also for 214 00:13:11,050 --> 00:13:14,410 Speaker 1: you and the other Joe, while you were writing the 215 00:13:14,490 --> 00:13:18,330 Speaker 1: play is that so many people involved. The cast of 216 00:13:18,410 --> 00:13:21,250 Speaker 1: characters is enormous. We had one hundred and fifty eight 217 00:13:21,370 --> 00:13:26,330 Speaker 1: nations represented at Kyoto. So how did you decide who 218 00:13:26,410 --> 00:13:27,930 Speaker 1: you were going to focus on and who was going 219 00:13:27,970 --> 00:13:29,010 Speaker 1: to fade into the background. 220 00:13:29,410 --> 00:13:31,770 Speaker 3: My co writer Joe and I went through a whole 221 00:13:31,810 --> 00:13:34,250 Speaker 3: process of Okay, how do you tell this story in 222 00:13:34,290 --> 00:13:36,570 Speaker 3: the most effective way possible. It was really important to 223 00:13:36,610 --> 00:13:42,490 Speaker 3: represent this growing, ever strengthening body of developing countries, which 224 00:13:42,530 --> 00:13:44,930 Speaker 3: is represented by the block, the G seventy seven in 225 00:13:44,970 --> 00:13:47,690 Speaker 3: the UN, you know, and they become an ever more 226 00:13:47,690 --> 00:13:51,330 Speaker 3: important voice in these negotiations. So we compressed, you know, 227 00:13:51,490 --> 00:13:54,770 Speaker 3: about one hundred and twenty countries down into into three 228 00:13:54,850 --> 00:13:58,730 Speaker 3: or four. Tanzania who led the G seventy seven, China, 229 00:13:58,810 --> 00:14:02,290 Speaker 3: which obviously remains one of the most important countries involved 230 00:14:02,290 --> 00:14:05,610 Speaker 3: in these negotiations. And then as you say that, the 231 00:14:05,650 --> 00:14:08,730 Speaker 3: small island States, which played a crucial role in this 232 00:14:08,770 --> 00:14:11,250 Speaker 3: whole history and still due to this day because the 233 00:14:11,250 --> 00:14:14,170 Speaker 3: problem with climate is it's you know, a little less 234 00:14:14,170 --> 00:14:16,010 Speaker 3: so now, but it was then a sort of a 235 00:14:16,050 --> 00:14:18,250 Speaker 3: future thing, you know, this is something down the line 236 00:14:18,330 --> 00:14:20,530 Speaker 3: we have to be worried about. And for the island 237 00:14:20,610 --> 00:14:22,930 Speaker 3: states that wasn't true. It was an immediate threat to 238 00:14:22,970 --> 00:14:26,050 Speaker 3: their states, to the health, to the continuing life of 239 00:14:26,090 --> 00:14:29,210 Speaker 3: their islands. And in nineteen ninety two they come together 240 00:14:29,250 --> 00:14:31,890 Speaker 3: and form a block, a new block, the Alliance of 241 00:14:31,890 --> 00:14:34,810 Speaker 3: Small Island States, which is like a firework set off 242 00:14:34,810 --> 00:14:37,810 Speaker 3: in the middle of the UN. Coming together and forming 243 00:14:37,890 --> 00:14:41,050 Speaker 3: this huge alliance is they become much more difficult to ignore, 244 00:14:41,250 --> 00:14:43,730 Speaker 3: and they become the moral compass of the negotiations. 245 00:14:44,090 --> 00:14:45,850 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it's an amazing moment in the play. 246 00:14:45,890 --> 00:14:46,810 Speaker 1: It's really dramatic. 247 00:14:47,290 --> 00:14:51,610 Speaker 4: The conditional tense is no longer sufficient for us. Sea 248 00:14:51,690 --> 00:14:56,530 Speaker 4: level rise will threaten survival. Western Samoa rises. 249 00:14:56,570 --> 00:14:58,450 Speaker 1: First they support Cua bar. 250 00:14:58,610 --> 00:15:02,690 Speaker 4: It will drown our crops. Then the Republic of Nauru 251 00:15:02,850 --> 00:15:05,890 Speaker 4: seconds this and wanted in the minute it will salinas 252 00:15:06,010 --> 00:15:08,290 Speaker 4: our fresh water supplies. 253 00:15:08,010 --> 00:15:12,530 Speaker 2: Followed by tid and Tobago, the Bahamas, Barbadoes, Bangala that it. 254 00:15:12,650 --> 00:15:17,170 Speaker 4: Will bleach our coral reefs and kill our mangrove forests. 255 00:15:17,210 --> 00:15:23,050 Speaker 1: Tanzania spans with the island states that developing world will. 256 00:15:22,890 --> 00:15:26,930 Speaker 4: No longer be brushed aside. It will erode our coast lines. 257 00:15:27,170 --> 00:15:31,450 Speaker 4: It will destroy our homes, Mauritious, Saint Lucian. It will 258 00:15:31,450 --> 00:15:35,570 Speaker 4: displace us from our lands, the Cook Islands, the Malty. 259 00:15:35,290 --> 00:15:40,130 Speaker 4: It is displacing us the Federated States of Micromedia. We 260 00:15:40,170 --> 00:15:42,330 Speaker 4: will not drown in silence. 261 00:15:42,450 --> 00:15:46,570 Speaker 1: A tidal wave of resentments old and new for the 262 00:15:46,610 --> 00:15:53,050 Speaker 1: conference hall. Another dramatic moment is the confrontation between your 263 00:15:53,250 --> 00:15:58,410 Speaker 1: anti hero Don and a scientist Dr Ben Santa is 264 00:15:58,450 --> 00:16:02,370 Speaker 1: a real character who's represented in the play. What does 265 00:16:02,370 --> 00:16:07,290 Speaker 1: Santa tell the conference and how does Don deal with him. 266 00:16:07,490 --> 00:16:09,770 Speaker 3: With climate, what you would expect is as a missions rise, 267 00:16:09,770 --> 00:16:12,490 Speaker 3: sociould the temperature. That's the theory, right, that's the hypothesis, 268 00:16:12,530 --> 00:16:14,650 Speaker 3: and that's what's been happening basically since the start of 269 00:16:14,690 --> 00:16:18,410 Speaker 3: the industry revolution. But because correlation is not causation, you 270 00:16:18,490 --> 00:16:20,890 Speaker 3: have to find something really unique that is causing that. 271 00:16:20,970 --> 00:16:22,770 Speaker 3: Until then it could be you could write it down 272 00:16:22,770 --> 00:16:24,730 Speaker 3: to solar flares or other things. And what they discover 273 00:16:24,850 --> 00:16:28,170 Speaker 3: in nineteen ninety five Ben Santa and his colleagues discover 274 00:16:28,730 --> 00:16:31,890 Speaker 3: while the lower atmosphere is warming, the upper atmosphere is cooling. 275 00:16:32,370 --> 00:16:34,810 Speaker 3: They really figure out that man made emissions sort of 276 00:16:34,810 --> 00:16:37,570 Speaker 3: sit between the lower and the upper atmosphere, trapping heat, 277 00:16:38,050 --> 00:16:40,610 Speaker 3: causing the lower atmosphere to warm and the upper atmosphere 278 00:16:40,850 --> 00:16:44,290 Speaker 3: to cool. And that is what they call a fingerprint. 279 00:16:44,490 --> 00:16:47,970 Speaker 3: And it becomes the moment when the scientists feel it 280 00:16:48,010 --> 00:16:51,250 Speaker 3: is clear enough to say we can now confidently say 281 00:16:51,370 --> 00:16:54,370 Speaker 3: that man made emissions are influencing the global climate. And 282 00:16:54,370 --> 00:16:59,330 Speaker 3: this finds expression in chapter eight of the second IPCC assessment. 283 00:16:59,450 --> 00:17:02,450 Speaker 3: In nineteen ninety five, Ben is asked to write chapter 284 00:17:02,530 --> 00:17:06,170 Speaker 3: eight to bring together the evidence what is causing these changes? 285 00:17:06,210 --> 00:17:08,290 Speaker 3: In the climate, and so he sums it up in 286 00:17:08,290 --> 00:17:10,850 Speaker 3: twelve words, which go down in the history of all 287 00:17:10,850 --> 00:17:13,890 Speaker 3: of these negotiations and of climate law. The balance of 288 00:17:13,890 --> 00:17:18,450 Speaker 3: evidence suggests a discernible human influence on global climate. And 289 00:17:18,490 --> 00:17:22,450 Speaker 3: it's all hinges on that one word, discernible. And there's 290 00:17:22,490 --> 00:17:25,450 Speaker 3: this very famous moment. It's actually in Madrid. They're arguing 291 00:17:25,490 --> 00:17:27,930 Speaker 3: over the adjective, and Don is there. He's right in 292 00:17:27,930 --> 00:17:30,690 Speaker 3: the room, and as are lots of other stakeholders, and 293 00:17:31,050 --> 00:17:33,530 Speaker 3: they debate what this word could be. And I think 294 00:17:33,610 --> 00:17:37,690 Speaker 3: they go through twenty eight possible adjectives, starting with appreciable, 295 00:17:37,730 --> 00:17:43,330 Speaker 3: then through observable, moderate, applausible, detectable, visible, identifiable, noticeable, until 296 00:17:43,330 --> 00:17:46,650 Speaker 3: they land on this word discernible. The balance of evidence 297 00:17:46,650 --> 00:17:50,690 Speaker 3: suggests a discernable human influence on global climate. And that's 298 00:17:50,770 --> 00:17:53,130 Speaker 3: the moment. That's the moment when they can say it's true. 299 00:17:53,170 --> 00:17:56,890 Speaker 3: And what Don and his associates do is essentially commit 300 00:17:56,890 --> 00:18:00,410 Speaker 3: a character assassination on Ben Center. This is before climate Gate, 301 00:18:00,450 --> 00:18:03,650 Speaker 3: before the big cases of misinformation we've seen. They accuse 302 00:18:03,730 --> 00:18:07,170 Speaker 3: Ben of changing details within the chapter that were agreed 303 00:18:07,210 --> 00:18:10,010 Speaker 3: in the room for publication. Now, what he was doing 304 00:18:10,010 --> 00:18:14,450 Speaker 3: actually was just sort of fulfilling IPCC formatting regulations so 305 00:18:14,490 --> 00:18:17,130 Speaker 3: that all the chapters of the book areligned. But they 306 00:18:17,250 --> 00:18:21,090 Speaker 3: used those little referencing changes, punctuation changes, word changes to 307 00:18:21,290 --> 00:18:24,610 Speaker 3: argue that actually he was committing fraud against the population 308 00:18:24,690 --> 00:18:27,890 Speaker 3: of the world. It kind of destroys Ben's life. That 309 00:18:27,930 --> 00:18:31,410 Speaker 3: the stories are horrible. The Nazi Party of Germany publishes 310 00:18:31,490 --> 00:18:33,490 Speaker 3: an address on the Internet. It's one of the first 311 00:18:33,530 --> 00:18:35,570 Speaker 3: dock things we can actually find in the history of 312 00:18:35,610 --> 00:18:37,690 Speaker 3: the Internet. They tried to get him tried at the 313 00:18:37,770 --> 00:18:42,290 Speaker 3: Hague for crimes against humanity, alongside congressional investigations and threats 314 00:18:42,330 --> 00:18:44,730 Speaker 3: to his job, and his son sleeps with a wooden 315 00:18:44,770 --> 00:18:46,850 Speaker 3: sword next to his bed because he's so scared of 316 00:18:47,090 --> 00:18:50,450 Speaker 3: people putting dead rats on his doorstep. And in that moment, 317 00:18:51,050 --> 00:18:53,650 Speaker 3: that's when I think the battle between the sort of 318 00:18:53,650 --> 00:18:55,970 Speaker 3: the climate deniers and those who believe in all this 319 00:18:56,090 --> 00:18:59,330 Speaker 3: gets really toxic, and it's the beginning of a new 320 00:18:59,410 --> 00:19:01,730 Speaker 3: chapter in these culture wars. 321 00:19:02,930 --> 00:19:07,650 Speaker 1: I was curious about the power that Don had in reality, 322 00:19:07,890 --> 00:19:11,250 Speaker 1: so in the play, he's really pulling a lot of 323 00:19:11,250 --> 00:19:14,090 Speaker 1: the strings. As this one really memorable scene where there's 324 00:19:14,090 --> 00:19:16,970 Speaker 1: a Japanese proposal and he basically goes to the Chinese 325 00:19:17,130 --> 00:19:20,050 Speaker 1: delegate and says, he realized this is really an American proposal. 326 00:19:20,530 --> 00:19:22,330 Speaker 1: These guys are playing with you. And then he goes 327 00:19:22,370 --> 00:19:23,890 Speaker 1: to the Americans to go he realized this is really 328 00:19:23,890 --> 00:19:28,250 Speaker 1: a Chinese proposal. He torpedoes everything because everybody believes him. 329 00:19:28,770 --> 00:19:31,450 Speaker 1: I was curious to what extent you know, exaggerated that 330 00:19:31,450 --> 00:19:34,530 Speaker 1: for dramatic effect, and to what extent you really think, 331 00:19:35,010 --> 00:19:36,970 Speaker 1: actually know it? What's this one guy? And if it 332 00:19:36,970 --> 00:19:39,730 Speaker 1: hadn't been for this one guy, everything would have been smooth. 333 00:19:39,850 --> 00:19:43,170 Speaker 3: Yeah, there is an element of dramatization. Everything is as 334 00:19:43,210 --> 00:19:46,210 Speaker 3: much as possible based on the research. We got a 335 00:19:46,210 --> 00:19:49,410 Speaker 3: lot of information from brilliant book Merchants of Doubt. The 336 00:19:49,490 --> 00:19:52,130 Speaker 3: sequence you describe is early in the play when we're 337 00:19:52,170 --> 00:19:55,330 Speaker 3: sort of showing that the toolbox of tactics that people 338 00:19:55,450 --> 00:19:58,050 Speaker 3: liked Don, and it wasn't just Don, but Don was 339 00:19:58,170 --> 00:20:00,490 Speaker 3: very much at the forefront, and you know, probably the 340 00:20:00,530 --> 00:20:03,170 Speaker 3: most effective of all of these kinds of lobbyists. So 341 00:20:03,210 --> 00:20:06,250 Speaker 3: that's called double diplomacy, sort of playing countries off against 342 00:20:06,290 --> 00:20:09,810 Speaker 3: each other. They challenged the science, they emphasize the costs 343 00:20:09,850 --> 00:20:13,130 Speaker 3: of action, and for Don, most importantly being present in 344 00:20:13,210 --> 00:20:16,530 Speaker 3: every single second. Almost no one else in that entire 345 00:20:16,570 --> 00:20:19,090 Speaker 3: period of time was every second of the talks more 346 00:20:19,130 --> 00:20:21,250 Speaker 3: than him, and that includes some of the heads of 347 00:20:21,250 --> 00:20:25,690 Speaker 3: delegations and that level, that sort of total immertion in 348 00:20:25,730 --> 00:20:29,130 Speaker 3: every detail, every word, every meeting. He was so ahead 349 00:20:29,130 --> 00:20:31,410 Speaker 3: of everybody else that he knew the rules of procedure, 350 00:20:31,490 --> 00:20:33,130 Speaker 3: you know, back to front, you could quote it. He 351 00:20:33,210 --> 00:20:35,970 Speaker 3: knew how to play the system. He had these alliances 352 00:20:35,970 --> 00:20:38,970 Speaker 3: with states as well as with individual delegates. I mean, 353 00:20:39,450 --> 00:20:43,290 Speaker 3: a good example is in Berlin. He realizes that in 354 00:20:43,290 --> 00:20:45,130 Speaker 3: the rules of procedure there's a problem. How do you 355 00:20:45,170 --> 00:20:48,050 Speaker 3: adopt a protocol is a big question. And in the 356 00:20:48,090 --> 00:20:50,690 Speaker 3: convention that was agreed in nineteen ninety two, it only 357 00:20:50,690 --> 00:20:53,730 Speaker 3: said that each country has one vote. And so through 358 00:20:53,730 --> 00:20:56,850 Speaker 3: his proxies in the Saudi Arabian delegation, they bring it 359 00:20:56,930 --> 00:20:59,290 Speaker 3: up and they say, well, you know what majority is required? 360 00:20:59,370 --> 00:21:01,730 Speaker 3: Is it two thirds? Is you know, three quarter majority 361 00:21:01,770 --> 00:21:04,610 Speaker 3: or whatever? And when it's clear that there is no clarity, 362 00:21:04,650 --> 00:21:07,530 Speaker 3: they bracket the rule. It's rule twenty two. I believe 363 00:21:07,970 --> 00:21:11,010 Speaker 3: they bracket the rule. It means it's no longer sort 364 00:21:11,010 --> 00:21:14,530 Speaker 3: of enshrined, it's up for debate and without voting rule. 365 00:21:14,650 --> 00:21:17,330 Speaker 3: It meant that every decision, every sort of adoption of 366 00:21:18,090 --> 00:21:21,570 Speaker 3: a protocol could essentially be vetoed by an individual country. 367 00:21:21,650 --> 00:21:24,450 Speaker 3: One country could stand up at the end object and 368 00:21:24,770 --> 00:21:26,970 Speaker 3: you know, to go back to our analogy, that would 369 00:21:26,970 --> 00:21:28,850 Speaker 3: mean that one hundred and sixty nine people didn't get 370 00:21:28,890 --> 00:21:32,250 Speaker 3: dinner if one person objected to the restaurant. That rule 371 00:21:32,330 --> 00:21:35,050 Speaker 3: still applies to this day. Even at COP thirty this 372 00:21:35,130 --> 00:21:37,970 Speaker 3: year in Blem and Brazil, they will be operating under 373 00:21:38,010 --> 00:21:40,570 Speaker 3: a consensus model of agreement that began, you know, as 374 00:21:40,610 --> 00:21:43,050 Speaker 3: a result of Don and the OPEC states back in 375 00:21:43,130 --> 00:21:44,010 Speaker 3: nineteen ninety five. 376 00:21:44,290 --> 00:21:46,770 Speaker 1: So we've been talking about the anti hero. Let us 377 00:21:46,770 --> 00:21:49,370 Speaker 1: talk about a surprising hero, a man who I think 378 00:21:49,410 --> 00:21:52,690 Speaker 1: will be known to British listeners, certainly British listeners of 379 00:21:52,730 --> 00:21:57,650 Speaker 1: my age. John Prescott President, who was the deputy Prime 380 00:21:57,650 --> 00:22:01,490 Speaker 1: Minister of the UK elected with Tony Blair in nineteen 381 00:22:01,610 --> 00:22:04,970 Speaker 1: ninety seven, so he'd only been deputy Prime Minister for 382 00:22:05,010 --> 00:22:08,450 Speaker 1: about six months when the Kyoto talks happened. Tell us 383 00:22:08,490 --> 00:22:10,090 Speaker 1: about press and the role he played. 384 00:22:11,050 --> 00:22:13,650 Speaker 3: He has this sort of reputation, you know, as the 385 00:22:13,690 --> 00:22:17,130 Speaker 3: one who connects with voters with his fist as it were, and. 386 00:22:16,650 --> 00:22:19,050 Speaker 1: Somebody threw an egg it in and he just punched 387 00:22:19,090 --> 00:22:19,650 Speaker 1: the guy. 388 00:22:19,690 --> 00:22:23,130 Speaker 3: On the election trail. Yeah, he's a bit, you know, 389 00:22:23,170 --> 00:22:26,170 Speaker 3: a little bit of a joke sometimes, but in researching 390 00:22:26,250 --> 00:22:28,810 Speaker 3: the play, what we realized he was absolutely integral to 391 00:22:29,010 --> 00:22:31,650 Speaker 3: the success of Kyoto. His history of negotiation went all 392 00:22:31,690 --> 00:22:34,450 Speaker 3: the way back to his youth when he was working 393 00:22:34,450 --> 00:22:36,850 Speaker 3: in the Merchant Navy in the Union and his job 394 00:22:36,890 --> 00:22:40,770 Speaker 3: would be to to mediate between sailors and the companies 395 00:22:40,810 --> 00:22:43,810 Speaker 3: and between sort of raw in factions within the union 396 00:22:43,890 --> 00:22:46,570 Speaker 3: and put down riots of thousands of sailors who were 397 00:22:46,650 --> 00:22:49,050 Speaker 3: drunk and refusing to go back aboard. And so he 398 00:22:49,090 --> 00:22:52,130 Speaker 3: comes with this amazing ability to sort of cajole and 399 00:22:52,170 --> 00:22:56,170 Speaker 3: with a huge amount of resilience, but also intellect understanding 400 00:22:56,250 --> 00:22:59,410 Speaker 3: how to listen, how to find out people's bottom lines, 401 00:22:59,450 --> 00:23:01,890 Speaker 3: how to keep them talking, how to find roots through 402 00:23:02,490 --> 00:23:05,570 Speaker 3: when things seemingly are intractable. And you know, he did 403 00:23:05,610 --> 00:23:07,650 Speaker 3: the same in the Labour Party in the nineteen nineties, 404 00:23:07,650 --> 00:23:09,730 Speaker 3: from sort of an old labor to it new labor. 405 00:23:10,010 --> 00:23:12,570 Speaker 3: He was this sort of mediator in the center of that, 406 00:23:12,690 --> 00:23:15,290 Speaker 3: and he was central in Kyoto. So he arrives. I 407 00:23:15,330 --> 00:23:17,610 Speaker 3: think it's the Netherlands is supposed to be representing the 408 00:23:17,650 --> 00:23:20,770 Speaker 3: EU in the negotiations, and the EU negotiates as a 409 00:23:20,810 --> 00:23:23,490 Speaker 3: block of fifteen countries at that time, and the Netherlands 410 00:23:23,530 --> 00:23:27,050 Speaker 3: just doesn't turn up. So he is unexpectedly becomes the 411 00:23:27,130 --> 00:23:31,570 Speaker 3: lead negotiator for the European Union. And his big slogan, 412 00:23:31,650 --> 00:23:33,690 Speaker 3: his big sort of creed occur was We've just got 413 00:23:33,690 --> 00:23:36,410 Speaker 3: to keep walking and talking, and that's what he does. 414 00:23:36,450 --> 00:23:38,970 Speaker 3: He manages to get Japan up to six percent, he 415 00:23:39,010 --> 00:23:42,010 Speaker 3: manages to get America on board. He's in all the 416 00:23:42,010 --> 00:23:45,370 Speaker 3: backrooms and corridors. He famously makes the Japanese delegate cry 417 00:23:45,450 --> 00:23:47,890 Speaker 3: because of the power of his persuasion. And when we 418 00:23:47,890 --> 00:23:51,290 Speaker 3: spoke to Raul Strada, he said John was a warrior. 419 00:23:51,370 --> 00:23:55,250 Speaker 1: But despite his best efforts, there were still a huge disagreements. 420 00:23:55,250 --> 00:23:57,930 Speaker 1: And I think this is not just about disinformation or 421 00:23:57,930 --> 00:24:02,890 Speaker 1: trouble making. Was a fundamental clash of interests between China 422 00:24:03,170 --> 00:24:08,370 Speaker 1: and America. China this huge developing nation now by far 423 00:24:08,490 --> 00:24:11,370 Speaker 1: the world's largest emitter of carbon dioxide, but at the 424 00:24:11,490 --> 00:24:14,370 Speaker 1: time they were not. But everyone could see it was 425 00:24:14,370 --> 00:24:17,530 Speaker 1: on the way, and they felt that it was unfair 426 00:24:17,730 --> 00:24:21,050 Speaker 1: that they should have to curtail their ambitions when the 427 00:24:21,090 --> 00:24:23,690 Speaker 1: world had basically been polluted by the Americans and the Europeans, 428 00:24:23,690 --> 00:24:26,530 Speaker 1: not by them. Meanwhile, the Americans are looking over their 429 00:24:26,530 --> 00:24:28,370 Speaker 1: shoulder at the Chinese and saying, well, why do we 430 00:24:28,410 --> 00:24:31,290 Speaker 1: have to curtail our emissions if these guys China and 431 00:24:31,290 --> 00:24:34,650 Speaker 1: India don't do anything? And it led to I think, 432 00:24:34,730 --> 00:24:36,130 Speaker 1: genuine deadlock for a long time. 433 00:24:36,530 --> 00:24:39,570 Speaker 3: It seems to me this is the central tension at 434 00:24:39,570 --> 00:24:42,610 Speaker 3: the heart of the climate movement since the very beginning 435 00:24:42,690 --> 00:24:46,130 Speaker 3: and to this day. You know, it's about whose responsibility 436 00:24:46,770 --> 00:24:49,690 Speaker 3: is this problem to solve? And you know China and 437 00:24:49,770 --> 00:24:53,330 Speaker 3: India and lots of developing nations who you know, at 438 00:24:53,330 --> 00:24:55,890 Speaker 3: that moment were developing at pace doing what the West 439 00:24:55,930 --> 00:24:58,850 Speaker 3: had done one hundred years before. Their central argument was, 440 00:24:59,010 --> 00:25:00,290 Speaker 3: we didn't cause this problem. 441 00:25:00,450 --> 00:25:00,850 Speaker 2: You did. 442 00:25:01,410 --> 00:25:04,410 Speaker 3: You have enjoyed the status of economic superpower built on 443 00:25:04,450 --> 00:25:07,330 Speaker 3: the limitless use of fossil fuels. Why should we be 444 00:25:07,370 --> 00:25:09,890 Speaker 3: denied the same You have caused the problem, it must 445 00:25:09,930 --> 00:25:11,930 Speaker 3: be yours to solve. And at the same time we 446 00:25:11,970 --> 00:25:15,010 Speaker 3: should be allowed to develops as fast and as quickly 447 00:25:15,050 --> 00:25:17,730 Speaker 3: as you did using the same resources that you did, 448 00:25:17,770 --> 00:25:20,810 Speaker 3: and how you've squared that circle is the fundamental problem 449 00:25:20,890 --> 00:25:22,450 Speaker 3: of solving climate change. 450 00:25:23,410 --> 00:25:27,490 Speaker 1: So on the final day of the conference, the Chinese 451 00:25:27,770 --> 00:25:30,370 Speaker 1: are threatening to walk out, the Americans are threatening to 452 00:25:30,370 --> 00:25:33,490 Speaker 1: walk out, the Europeans are dancing around numbers, the island 453 00:25:33,570 --> 00:25:37,410 Speaker 1: nations are reminding everybody that they're very survival depends on 454 00:25:38,090 --> 00:25:43,010 Speaker 1: radical emission cuts, and the Saudi Arabians are demanding compensation 455 00:25:43,090 --> 00:25:46,130 Speaker 1: for potential loss of earnings. It's utter chaos and to 456 00:25:46,170 --> 00:25:50,930 Speaker 1: capital the chairman of COP three has disappeared. So where 457 00:25:50,970 --> 00:25:53,890 Speaker 1: is a strata canon agreement be reached and do we 458 00:25:54,010 --> 00:25:58,810 Speaker 1: need global unanimity to cut emissions? Find out? After the 459 00:25:58,850 --> 00:26:09,050 Speaker 1: break we are back and I am talking to Joe Robertson, 460 00:26:09,490 --> 00:26:12,970 Speaker 1: who is one of the writers of the play Kyoto. 461 00:26:13,770 --> 00:26:17,010 Speaker 1: So it is the final day of the Kyoto Conference. 462 00:26:17,330 --> 00:26:22,530 Speaker 1: It is hurtling towards disaster. And Joe, you've had the 463 00:26:22,570 --> 00:26:25,770 Speaker 1: privilege of interviewing many of the people who were there 464 00:26:26,090 --> 00:26:29,410 Speaker 1: on that day. What did they tell you about the atmosphere. 465 00:26:30,330 --> 00:26:34,050 Speaker 3: It's a mixture of sort of PTSD and sort of 466 00:26:34,210 --> 00:26:39,290 Speaker 3: utter excitement. So Estrada, the chairman, he disappears and he 467 00:26:39,290 --> 00:26:42,210 Speaker 3: he actually goes for a naw wise man. The wise 468 00:26:42,250 --> 00:26:45,130 Speaker 3: man absolutely and has an app goes back to his hotel, 469 00:26:45,130 --> 00:26:47,290 Speaker 3: has dinner with his wife, Letitia, and then comes back 470 00:26:47,290 --> 00:26:49,450 Speaker 3: to a conference center, which is a bit like Dawn 471 00:26:49,450 --> 00:26:51,690 Speaker 3: of the Dead. You know, you've got delegates literally sprawled 472 00:26:51,690 --> 00:26:55,450 Speaker 3: out a sleep Coffee is run out, food has run out. 473 00:26:55,490 --> 00:26:57,930 Speaker 3: There's rumors that toilet roll is running out as well. 474 00:26:58,410 --> 00:27:01,810 Speaker 3: The conference staff are clearing away furniture because they've got 475 00:27:01,810 --> 00:27:03,610 Speaker 3: an event the next morning. Some people say there was 476 00:27:03,610 --> 00:27:05,650 Speaker 3: a wedding next morning with a bride and groom waiting. 477 00:27:06,450 --> 00:27:09,610 Speaker 3: So when you enter this final negotiation with Estrada, who's refreshed, 478 00:27:09,650 --> 00:27:12,210 Speaker 3: he just absolutely powers through. They don't start the final 479 00:27:12,210 --> 00:27:15,730 Speaker 3: SESSI until about eleven fifteen at night. The interpreters leave 480 00:27:15,770 --> 00:27:18,650 Speaker 3: after midnight, so suddenly people have got to sort of 481 00:27:18,650 --> 00:27:22,250 Speaker 3: translate between themselves. Then the president of the conference, the 482 00:27:22,290 --> 00:27:27,010 Speaker 3: Japanese president of the host, hiroshi Oki, suddenly resigns in 483 00:27:27,010 --> 00:27:29,010 Speaker 3: the middle of the final session. He just takes off 484 00:27:29,050 --> 00:27:30,410 Speaker 3: his badge and says, I've got to go back to 485 00:27:30,410 --> 00:27:33,250 Speaker 3: Tokyo because my prime minister is facing a confidence vote. 486 00:27:33,450 --> 00:27:35,570 Speaker 3: So he heads off to the Bullet train. They spend 487 00:27:35,570 --> 00:27:38,650 Speaker 3: about four or five hours arguing over emissions trading, which 488 00:27:38,730 --> 00:27:41,410 Speaker 3: is just one paragraph in one article of twenty eight, 489 00:27:42,010 --> 00:27:44,730 Speaker 3: and then when that is finally a compromises agreed at 490 00:27:44,770 --> 00:27:48,010 Speaker 3: about four am or something, they then start an article 491 00:27:48,050 --> 00:27:50,650 Speaker 3: one through twenty eight and spend another sort of six 492 00:27:50,730 --> 00:27:55,090 Speaker 3: hours going line by line through every sentence of the protocol. 493 00:27:55,450 --> 00:27:57,850 Speaker 3: The scenes are sort of fascical but kind of amazing. 494 00:27:58,210 --> 00:28:00,610 Speaker 4: We could separate the paragraph dash. 495 00:28:00,490 --> 00:28:03,770 Speaker 1: From the article on commitments comma to create an interim 496 00:28:03,850 --> 00:28:06,330 Speaker 1: arrangement question mark, not without. 497 00:28:06,090 --> 00:28:09,570 Speaker 4: Bracing the ellipses with an apostrophic comma, so we can 498 00:28:09,650 --> 00:28:13,210 Speaker 4: properly parenthesize the quotation mark exclamation mark. Point well made, 499 00:28:13,250 --> 00:28:17,810 Speaker 4: mister Chairman Comma. We object to italicizing the close rackets 500 00:28:17,850 --> 00:28:19,690 Speaker 4: to colon the question mar. 501 00:28:19,810 --> 00:28:22,770 Speaker 1: They are arguing over commas, but they're not only arguing 502 00:28:22,810 --> 00:28:25,810 Speaker 1: over commas because you know, whether developing countries participate or not. 503 00:28:26,450 --> 00:28:27,810 Speaker 1: It's like that's not a side issue. 504 00:28:27,850 --> 00:28:30,970 Speaker 3: Absolutely, And just prior to the actual conference itself, the 505 00:28:31,050 --> 00:28:35,650 Speaker 3: US Senate had voted unanimously not to ratify any protocolic 506 00:28:35,690 --> 00:28:38,770 Speaker 3: greeding Kyoto that didn't include developing countries. So you have 507 00:28:38,890 --> 00:28:41,610 Speaker 3: from the get go, the sort of damocles hanging over 508 00:28:41,650 --> 00:28:44,930 Speaker 3: the conference, because without that, America won't ratify. And you know, 509 00:28:44,970 --> 00:28:47,930 Speaker 3: if America doesn't ratify, what's the point in having a protocol. 510 00:28:48,450 --> 00:28:50,690 Speaker 3: And the commas, you know, commas are really important in 511 00:28:50,730 --> 00:28:54,210 Speaker 3: this process. As a writer, commas are about punctuation, is 512 00:28:54,250 --> 00:29:00,090 Speaker 3: about creating clarity in climate negotiations, They're actually about creating ambiguity. 513 00:29:00,610 --> 00:29:03,850 Speaker 3: A comma allows for a slight ambiguity in a sense 514 00:29:03,890 --> 00:29:06,610 Speaker 3: that allows two different delegations to go home and claim victory. 515 00:29:07,170 --> 00:29:11,330 Speaker 1: And there's this dramatic moment where Raoul Strada is just 516 00:29:11,410 --> 00:29:15,170 Speaker 1: gaveling his way through. He's hammering one clause after another. 517 00:29:15,650 --> 00:29:16,610 Speaker 1: The article remains. 518 00:29:16,610 --> 00:29:19,490 Speaker 4: I say, it's agree. You can't just gavel through. I 519 00:29:19,690 --> 00:29:23,570 Speaker 4: just did article two talk about high wire chairmanship. I 520 00:29:23,610 --> 00:29:28,050 Speaker 4: see no objection. So agreed. We're already agreed on Article three, 521 00:29:28,290 --> 00:29:32,450 Speaker 4: thank god. So on to article four. The USA has 522 00:29:32,490 --> 00:29:38,970 Speaker 4: the floor. We object the missing preposition in the fourth line. Please, 523 00:29:39,130 --> 00:29:42,290 Speaker 4: the US will blow up the talks for a missing preposition. 524 00:29:43,170 --> 00:29:44,570 Speaker 4: I'm gatherling agree. 525 00:29:45,210 --> 00:29:47,570 Speaker 3: By the end, he's gathering through, and you can hear that. 526 00:29:47,770 --> 00:29:50,810 Speaker 3: You can hear the delegates going agreed, agreed, and it 527 00:29:50,890 --> 00:29:55,010 Speaker 3: sort of rises into this crescendo of people through both 528 00:29:55,050 --> 00:29:58,050 Speaker 3: exhaustion but also realizing, oh my god, it's going to happen. 529 00:29:58,410 --> 00:30:01,250 Speaker 3: They're willing it in. They're willing this moment of agreement 530 00:30:01,370 --> 00:30:04,290 Speaker 3: into existence, and I think at about ten point fifteen 531 00:30:04,410 --> 00:30:07,010 Speaker 3: something like that, Raoul is able to bring down his 532 00:30:07,130 --> 00:30:10,530 Speaker 3: gavel using the sort of the fa lines. I recommend 533 00:30:10,810 --> 00:30:15,450 Speaker 3: the Kyoto Protocol for adoption by unanimity, and that's the 534 00:30:15,490 --> 00:30:17,770 Speaker 3: moment that the Kyoto Protocol is agreed. 535 00:30:18,290 --> 00:30:20,690 Speaker 1: It's almost like a magic trick when you see it 536 00:30:20,730 --> 00:30:25,010 Speaker 1: on stage and they do agree. In the end, of course, 537 00:30:25,650 --> 00:30:30,490 Speaker 1: the US Senate doesn't ratify the protocol. On the one hand, 538 00:30:30,730 --> 00:30:34,970 Speaker 1: you have presented us with this kind of amazing moment, 539 00:30:35,010 --> 00:30:37,890 Speaker 1: and you've shown all attention and you've shown what it 540 00:30:37,930 --> 00:30:43,810 Speaker 1: took to each agreement. But given what then followed, how 541 00:30:43,930 --> 00:30:47,330 Speaker 1: enthusiastic should we be about about that moment of agreement. 542 00:30:47,570 --> 00:30:50,530 Speaker 3: There are big debates about this, and you know, especially now, 543 00:30:50,570 --> 00:30:53,290 Speaker 3: I think as global multilateralism is in doubt, and some 544 00:30:53,330 --> 00:30:55,970 Speaker 3: people say it's dead in a world of strong men 545 00:30:56,010 --> 00:30:58,930 Speaker 3: and in a world of sort of of a declining 546 00:30:58,970 --> 00:31:04,330 Speaker 3: international cooperation. But as you know, Kyoto is undoubtedly like 547 00:31:04,370 --> 00:31:06,970 Speaker 3: an amazing moment of the proof of what can happen 548 00:31:07,010 --> 00:31:10,970 Speaker 3: when countries do come together. Now, America didn't ratify, but 549 00:31:11,410 --> 00:31:14,450 Speaker 3: the fact that they didn't walk out allowed this moment 550 00:31:15,130 --> 00:31:17,490 Speaker 3: to exist on the international stage, for it to become 551 00:31:17,570 --> 00:31:20,850 Speaker 3: this line in the sand, and most of the developed 552 00:31:20,890 --> 00:31:23,970 Speaker 3: world ratify, with the exception of a couple. By and large, 553 00:31:24,250 --> 00:31:28,730 Speaker 3: all of them really met their targets and many exceeded 554 00:31:28,770 --> 00:31:31,370 Speaker 3: their targets. No one can say things are going well 555 00:31:31,370 --> 00:31:34,050 Speaker 3: in climate I think without Kyoto we'd be in a 556 00:31:34,170 --> 00:31:39,090 Speaker 3: much worse position, and on the continuum of multilateral negotiations 557 00:31:39,170 --> 00:31:42,050 Speaker 3: that leads to Copenhagen and then through to Paris, which 558 00:31:42,090 --> 00:31:44,370 Speaker 3: is when the developing world finally really does come on 559 00:31:44,450 --> 00:31:48,450 Speaker 3: board in this substantial way in twenty fifteen, we would 560 00:31:48,530 --> 00:31:51,290 Speaker 3: not be where we are today without that moment. 561 00:31:51,730 --> 00:31:53,170 Speaker 1: On the other hand, just from the point of view 562 00:31:53,170 --> 00:31:56,850 Speaker 1: of climate change, and look at the UK's emissions for example, 563 00:31:56,890 --> 00:31:59,890 Speaker 1: so our emissions carbon DIYX had emissions per capita are 564 00:31:59,970 --> 00:32:03,210 Speaker 1: lower than they were in eighteen sixty because we stopped 565 00:32:03,210 --> 00:32:05,290 Speaker 1: burning coal and we switched a natural gas which is 566 00:32:05,330 --> 00:32:07,490 Speaker 1: cleaner and then we've reduced a lot of natural gas, 567 00:32:07,490 --> 00:32:08,970 Speaker 1: and now there's a lot of wind, and there's a 568 00:32:09,210 --> 00:32:12,290 Speaker 1: lot of solar, and also a lot of stuff is 569 00:32:12,290 --> 00:32:15,130 Speaker 1: more efficient. And there's a similar story to be told 570 00:32:15,170 --> 00:32:20,330 Speaker 1: about many developed countries. So although global emissions are still 571 00:32:20,330 --> 00:32:23,170 Speaker 1: near a peak, there's a lot of progress been made, 572 00:32:23,330 --> 00:32:26,250 Speaker 1: and a lot of that progress seems to be technology driven. 573 00:32:27,650 --> 00:32:30,410 Speaker 1: And I'm just wondering how much of this actually can 574 00:32:30,450 --> 00:32:32,690 Speaker 1: we credit Kyoto for, and how much of it is 575 00:32:32,850 --> 00:32:35,730 Speaker 1: just you know, well, actually it was German solar subsidies, 576 00:32:35,730 --> 00:32:39,450 Speaker 1: it was Chinese industrial policy, it was the UK's dash 577 00:32:39,450 --> 00:32:41,810 Speaker 1: for gas, and actually none of it really was about 578 00:32:42,570 --> 00:32:43,650 Speaker 1: this global agreement. 579 00:32:44,250 --> 00:32:47,090 Speaker 3: I wouldn't be so bold as to say without Kyoto 580 00:32:47,170 --> 00:32:50,050 Speaker 3: that those things wouldn't have happened. But back in the eighties, 581 00:32:50,210 --> 00:32:51,530 Speaker 3: no one would have been able to tell you what 582 00:32:51,530 --> 00:32:54,290 Speaker 3: climate change was. But what this process did, and what 583 00:32:54,370 --> 00:32:57,090 Speaker 3: the human beings at the heart of this process did, 584 00:32:57,250 --> 00:32:59,770 Speaker 3: was to bring this into the public consciousness and into 585 00:32:59,770 --> 00:33:04,090 Speaker 3: the political policymaking consciousness in a way which became completely 586 00:33:04,130 --> 00:33:06,810 Speaker 3: impossible to ignore. And there is a before and an 587 00:33:06,810 --> 00:33:09,290 Speaker 3: after Kyoto, and we live in an after Kiot to 588 00:33:09,330 --> 00:33:11,810 Speaker 3: a world, where the threads run through all elements of 589 00:33:11,850 --> 00:33:14,610 Speaker 3: policy making all around the world, and some amazing, some 590 00:33:14,650 --> 00:33:17,570 Speaker 3: of the most amazing human beings I've ever met, but flawed, 591 00:33:17,890 --> 00:33:21,250 Speaker 3: working in systems which are human systems which are flawed, 592 00:33:21,810 --> 00:33:25,970 Speaker 3: trying to influence human behavior which is flawed. But they 593 00:33:26,010 --> 00:33:28,450 Speaker 3: are the best we have. They are the best structures 594 00:33:28,450 --> 00:33:30,450 Speaker 3: that we have, you know, the United Nations, and that 595 00:33:30,570 --> 00:33:35,410 Speaker 3: the idealism of the multilateral process is I think, you know, 596 00:33:35,530 --> 00:33:38,850 Speaker 3: this is where as an artist comes out. I think beautiful, 597 00:33:39,130 --> 00:33:43,490 Speaker 3: because I think the ambition of those structures is so noble. 598 00:33:44,090 --> 00:33:45,930 Speaker 3: And yes, you can criticize them, and they can be 599 00:33:45,930 --> 00:33:48,970 Speaker 3: criticized as talking shops and all the rest. But when 600 00:33:49,010 --> 00:33:51,930 Speaker 3: we meet the people involved who have devoted and dedicated 601 00:33:51,930 --> 00:33:54,530 Speaker 3: their whole lives to just nudging the dial a little 602 00:33:54,890 --> 00:33:57,570 Speaker 3: as much as they possibly can, that really inspires me 603 00:33:57,610 --> 00:33:59,530 Speaker 3: and leaves me with a huge amount of admiration. 604 00:34:00,130 --> 00:34:04,410 Speaker 1: Your play Kyoto begins with Don Perlman. It ends with 605 00:34:04,610 --> 00:34:07,970 Speaker 1: his widow looking back on what he did and reflecting 606 00:34:07,970 --> 00:34:11,330 Speaker 1: on his life. Do you think he ever regretted what 607 00:34:11,450 --> 00:34:11,810 Speaker 1: he did? 608 00:34:12,490 --> 00:34:16,050 Speaker 3: I think Don very very firmly believed that what he 609 00:34:16,090 --> 00:34:18,730 Speaker 3: was doing was right. You know, he's an old school Republican. 610 00:34:19,170 --> 00:34:22,410 Speaker 3: He owed everything to America. He's the son of immigrants 611 00:34:22,450 --> 00:34:24,410 Speaker 3: who gave him and his family everything. And I think 612 00:34:24,450 --> 00:34:28,450 Speaker 3: he saw in the negotiations an attempt to change a 613 00:34:28,490 --> 00:34:30,810 Speaker 3: world order that was to the detriment of the United 614 00:34:30,810 --> 00:34:33,770 Speaker 3: States of America, you know. And I think he thought 615 00:34:33,810 --> 00:34:36,530 Speaker 3: that the negotiations were less about the science and more 616 00:34:36,530 --> 00:34:40,330 Speaker 3: about America's place in the world. And he fought and 617 00:34:40,530 --> 00:34:43,130 Speaker 3: ultimately died on that hill, you know. And do I 618 00:34:43,170 --> 00:34:45,850 Speaker 3: think he would have changed as the science got clearer 619 00:34:45,890 --> 00:34:48,290 Speaker 3: and clearer. It was pretty clear in two thousand and 620 00:34:48,330 --> 00:34:50,250 Speaker 3: five when he died. But you know, maybe. 621 00:34:50,850 --> 00:34:52,650 Speaker 1: I mean, the interesting thing is, it's not just about 622 00:34:52,690 --> 00:34:55,370 Speaker 1: the science. Even if if you look at climate changes, 623 00:34:55,450 --> 00:34:58,890 Speaker 1: you go, burning fossil fuels definitely warms the atmosphere, it's 624 00:34:58,890 --> 00:35:02,090 Speaker 1: definitely going to cause trouble. It will cause extreme weather. 625 00:35:02,890 --> 00:35:05,610 Speaker 1: Even if you accept that, it doesn't necessarily mean you 626 00:35:05,690 --> 00:35:09,210 Speaker 1: have to act. You could still argue it's not not 627 00:35:09,330 --> 00:35:13,090 Speaker 1: worth the cost of abandoning fossil fuels, or you could 628 00:35:13,090 --> 00:35:15,210 Speaker 1: say it's worth abandoning the cost of fossil fuels. But 629 00:35:15,250 --> 00:35:18,570 Speaker 1: it's not our business. So I think even if you 630 00:35:18,610 --> 00:35:21,850 Speaker 1: accept the science, they're still room for disagreement. 631 00:35:22,170 --> 00:35:24,570 Speaker 3: Well, absolutely. I mean, we use a line that came 632 00:35:24,610 --> 00:35:26,810 Speaker 3: from Dr Shu kong Zong, who is the head of 633 00:35:26,850 --> 00:35:29,770 Speaker 3: the Chinese delegation for much of the nineties and in Kyoto, 634 00:35:30,210 --> 00:35:32,530 Speaker 3: and he says, China will not remain poor so that 635 00:35:32,570 --> 00:35:35,210 Speaker 3: the world can Breathe. You have in there the very problem. 636 00:35:35,370 --> 00:35:37,930 Speaker 3: And Don himself says, you know, someone says, you know, 637 00:35:38,050 --> 00:35:40,170 Speaker 3: is the science clear? And he says, well, what science, 638 00:35:40,530 --> 00:35:44,130 Speaker 3: political science, social science, economic science, It's not the right question. 639 00:35:44,570 --> 00:35:47,730 Speaker 3: Fossil fuels and our use of the natural resources of 640 00:35:47,770 --> 00:35:50,530 Speaker 3: this planet are a part of every single aspect of 641 00:35:50,530 --> 00:35:53,530 Speaker 3: our life, from transport to industry, to manufacturing to our 642 00:35:53,570 --> 00:35:57,490 Speaker 3: economies on every conceivable scale. It's so deep in every 643 00:35:57,890 --> 00:36:00,450 Speaker 3: aspect of our behavior on a personal level and on 644 00:36:00,450 --> 00:36:04,650 Speaker 3: a global level. So it's a complicated thing to solve it. 645 00:36:04,890 --> 00:36:10,490 Speaker 1: Indeed, so cautionly tales. We're all about true stories that 646 00:36:10,570 --> 00:36:14,810 Speaker 1: teach us lessons. And on the day that this conversation 647 00:36:15,010 --> 00:36:17,930 Speaker 1: is released should also be the last day of the 648 00:36:17,930 --> 00:36:24,010 Speaker 1: COP thirty conference in Brazil, I was curious what you 649 00:36:24,250 --> 00:36:29,170 Speaker 1: hope that delegates in blame might learn from the Kyoto 650 00:36:29,250 --> 00:36:32,490 Speaker 1: process and from all the previous cops. 651 00:36:32,490 --> 00:36:37,490 Speaker 3: Definitely have naps in the Prescott way, just keep walking 652 00:36:37,730 --> 00:36:40,410 Speaker 3: and talking. And I think that applies not just to 653 00:36:40,410 --> 00:36:42,810 Speaker 3: the cop, but to all of us in this really 654 00:36:42,810 --> 00:36:45,210 Speaker 3: difficult moment that the world is facing, when it feels 655 00:36:45,290 --> 00:36:49,170 Speaker 3: like multilateralism is at risk and it feels like conversation 656 00:36:49,330 --> 00:36:54,170 Speaker 3: between ourselves is at risk. What Kyoto shows me every 657 00:36:54,170 --> 00:36:56,090 Speaker 3: time I speak to the people involved and watch the 658 00:36:56,130 --> 00:36:59,890 Speaker 3: show is actually all we have is discussion, is conversation, 659 00:37:00,170 --> 00:37:02,730 Speaker 3: is the ability to talk and to work through our 660 00:37:02,770 --> 00:37:07,850 Speaker 3: problems and our issues, however intractable, however deeply felt, however entrenched. 661 00:37:08,050 --> 00:37:09,090 Speaker 3: Just keep walking and talking. 662 00:37:09,810 --> 00:37:12,450 Speaker 1: Joe Robertson, thank you so much for joining us on 663 00:37:12,530 --> 00:37:13,330 Speaker 1: Cautionary Tales. 664 00:37:13,890 --> 00:37:15,410 Speaker 3: Thank you so much, Tim. It's a pleasure. 665 00:37:22,930 --> 00:37:25,850 Speaker 1: As many of you know, I am a huge fan 666 00:37:26,050 --> 00:37:30,170 Speaker 1: of tabletop games, and Christmas is the perfect time to 667 00:37:30,170 --> 00:37:33,690 Speaker 1: be playing them. With that in mind, we have invited 668 00:37:33,730 --> 00:37:38,210 Speaker 1: the inventor of games such as Magic, the Gathering and 669 00:37:38,450 --> 00:37:42,730 Speaker 1: King of Tokyo, Richard Garfield, to join me for a 670 00:37:42,850 --> 00:37:48,690 Speaker 1: special episode of Cautionary Questions. Richard knows everything worth knowing 671 00:37:48,770 --> 00:37:52,250 Speaker 1: about game design, and he also has some questions for me, 672 00:37:52,850 --> 00:37:55,210 Speaker 1: but if you want to ask him a question, be 673 00:37:55,210 --> 00:37:58,890 Speaker 1: sure to get it into tales at Pushkin dot fm 674 00:37:59,130 --> 00:38:05,730 Speaker 1: by the end of the month. Cautionary Tales is written 675 00:38:05,770 --> 00:38:09,450 Speaker 1: by me Tim Harford, with Andrew Wright, Alice Fines, and 676 00:38:09,530 --> 00:38:13,850 Speaker 1: Ryan Dilly. It's produced by Georgia Mills and Marilyn Rust. 677 00:38:15,010 --> 00:38:17,290 Speaker 1: The sound design and original music are the work of 678 00:38:17,450 --> 00:38:22,370 Speaker 1: Pascal Wise. Additional sound design by Carlos San Juan at 679 00:38:22,370 --> 00:38:27,450 Speaker 1: Brain Audio and Dan Jackson. Bend A. Dafh Haffrey edited 680 00:38:27,450 --> 00:38:31,210 Speaker 1: the scripts. The show also wouldn't have been possible without 681 00:38:31,210 --> 00:38:36,090 Speaker 1: the work of Jacob Weisberg, Greta Cohne, Eric Sandler, Carrie Brody, 682 00:38:36,730 --> 00:38:42,650 Speaker 1: Christina Sullivan, Kira Posey, and Owen Miller. Cautionary Tales is 683 00:38:42,650 --> 00:38:46,130 Speaker 1: a production of Pushkin Industries. If you like the show, 684 00:38:46,450 --> 00:38:50,610 Speaker 1: please remember to share, rate and review. It really does 685 00:38:50,650 --> 00:38:53,570 Speaker 1: make a difference to us. And if you want to 686 00:38:53,610 --> 00:38:57,730 Speaker 1: hear it, add free and receive a bonus audio episode, 687 00:38:58,010 --> 00:39:02,770 Speaker 1: video episode and members only newsletter every month. Why not 688 00:39:02,850 --> 00:39:07,330 Speaker 1: join the Cautionary Club. To sign up, head to patreon 689 00:39:07,490 --> 00:39:11,690 Speaker 1: dot com slash Coorsetionary Club. That's Patreon p A t 690 00:39:12,010 --> 00:39:16,730 Speaker 1: R e o N dot com Slash Cautionary Club,