1
00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:04,200
Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

2
00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:07,160
Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

3
00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:10,719
Speaker 1: today's best minds, and Ted Cruz has been caught on

4
00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:14,800
Speaker 1: tape describing step two of the plot to overturn the election.

5
00:00:15,160 --> 00:00:18,480
Speaker 2: We have an interesting show for you today, veeps.

6
00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:22,240
Speaker 1: Dave Mandel will talk to us about his new show,

7
00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:26,480
Speaker 1: The White House Blumbers, which is out now on HBO Max.

8
00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:30,200
Speaker 1: Then we'll talk to Semaphore's Ben Smith about his new

9
00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:31,160
Speaker 1: book Traffic.

10
00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:32,959
Speaker 2: But first we have.

11
00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:37,320
Speaker 1: The author of Lucky, How Joe Biden Barely won the Presidency,

12
00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:44,760
Speaker 1: NBC's John Allen. Welcome back to Fast Politics, your friend

13
00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:45,800
Speaker 1: of mine.

14
00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:49,280
Speaker 3: John Allen, Wally, what a introduction.

15
00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:54,840
Speaker 1: We're very enthusiastic here, team because it is the Sunday

16
00:00:54,880 --> 00:01:01,640
Speaker 1: after the White House Correspondence dinner weekend bonanza of political

17
00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:06,760
Speaker 1: journalists and the politicians who don't necessarily like them.

18
00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:10,000
Speaker 4: I think that's fair. Uh schmoozing.

19
00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:14,960
Speaker 3: I mean it's everybody wants to schmooz, schmoozing, plus a

20
00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:16,040
Speaker 3: couple of celebrities.

21
00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:21,800
Speaker 1: It's pretty brutal. So the celebrities were John Legend and

22
00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:22,679
Speaker 1: Christy Tegen.

23
00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:24,440
Speaker 4: It's pretty good. Celebrities.

24
00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:28,720
Speaker 3: I think that's good celebrities. I also saw Jerry O'Connell

25
00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:33,520
Speaker 3: and Rebecca Remain. Yeah, I saw that Rosario Dawson for

26
00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:35,880
Speaker 3: a little while. She was very good to her, like

27
00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:36,600
Speaker 3: very cool.

28
00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:40,199
Speaker 1: Let's talk about real stuff, because the only thing more

29
00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:42,319
Speaker 1: boring than media.

30
00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:46,720
Speaker 4: Coverage is media party coverage.

31
00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:50,400
Speaker 1: So instead, but it's a good explainer for why John

32
00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:53,240
Speaker 1: Allen and I might sound low energies that we have

33
00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:56,160
Speaker 1: stayed it very late and I had to take.

34
00:01:56,040 --> 00:01:56,560
Speaker 4: The train home.

35
00:01:56,560 --> 00:02:00,760
Speaker 1: But I want to talk to you about pretty interesting mourning.

36
00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:07,080
Speaker 1: A lot of talk about this debt ceiling drama, so

37
00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:09,600
Speaker 1: I want to like talk through what happened last week

38
00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:13,040
Speaker 1: because it's pretty interesting. The Speaker of the House, one

39
00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:19,120
Speaker 1: Kevin McCarthy, handsome genius, and by handsome I mean whatever,

40
00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:22,400
Speaker 1: and genius I mean whatever, decided he was going to

41
00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:26,320
Speaker 1: pass a new budget. Right, He's passed his budget through

42
00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:26,799
Speaker 1: the House.

43
00:02:27,639 --> 00:02:32,320
Speaker 3: He's passed his debt ceiling fix, which is basically to

44
00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:34,919
Speaker 3: raise the debt ceiling and cut a whole bunch of spending.

45
00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:38,600
Speaker 1: Right to twenty percent non discretionary spending.

46
00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:41,079
Speaker 3: Right twenty percent, I think discretionary, but.

47
00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:44,760
Speaker 1: Yes, not twenty percent of all non military spending.

48
00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:45,880
Speaker 4: Does that sound right to you?

49
00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:48,440
Speaker 3: I'm not sure, Billy, honestly.

50
00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:52,320
Speaker 4: Well, something to that effect. It sounds like a lot.

51
00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:56,560
Speaker 3: That sounds like a lot. So I mean, basically, what

52
00:02:56,600 --> 00:02:59,840
Speaker 3: you've got here is the House moving forward with some

53
00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:02,320
Speaker 3: it's debt on arrival in the Senate, but it gives

54
00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:05,120
Speaker 3: the House, from a political standpoint, the ability to stay

55
00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:07,760
Speaker 3: that they have passed something that would raise the debt ceiling,

56
00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:11,000
Speaker 3: and so that puts the bonus on the Senate and

57
00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:14,679
Speaker 3: the President Biden to some extent to counter. Of course,

58
00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:17,919
Speaker 3: the Senate and President Biden would like to counter with

59
00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:20,480
Speaker 3: just raise the debt ceiling and don't cut a whole

60
00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:21,440
Speaker 3: bunch of programs.

61
00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:24,280
Speaker 1: Now again, I want to pause here because even you're

62
00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:27,600
Speaker 1: a straight reporter, which is one of the many things

63
00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:30,440
Speaker 1: we love about you. But I need to add here

64
00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:35,120
Speaker 1: that when a Republican as president, Republicans just tend to

65
00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:38,840
Speaker 1: pay our bills. I mean, passing the debt ceiling is

66
00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:41,000
Speaker 1: in fact just paying.

67
00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:43,640
Speaker 3: We've already in heard these debts. So the question is

68
00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:47,160
Speaker 3: will the United States honor its debts and pay service

69
00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:50,200
Speaker 3: on its debts, or will the United States choose not

70
00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:53,840
Speaker 3: to honor and pay service on its debts and potentially

71
00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:57,920
Speaker 3: crash the economy, not only our economy, but potentially the

72
00:03:57,960 --> 00:03:58,880
Speaker 3: global economy.

73
00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:01,480
Speaker 2: Right anyway, Yes, so continue on.

74
00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:04,680
Speaker 1: So the goal here as Republicans are to get give

75
00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:08,840
Speaker 1: themselves cover so that they can't say they didn't try.

76
00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:11,280
Speaker 3: Correct. Not only does it give them cover, but I

77
00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:13,720
Speaker 3: mean they actually have put something forward. Right, So there

78
00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:16,200
Speaker 3: is something that has passed the House. Right, You've got

79
00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:19,520
Speaker 3: a pretty simple process and theory for passing laws past

80
00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:23,599
Speaker 3: the House, past the Senate. Maybe something different passes the Senate.

81
00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:26,800
Speaker 3: You negotiate between the two chambers, and then you send

82
00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:29,000
Speaker 3: something to the president. So the House has now done

83
00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:32,200
Speaker 3: that initial step. And without having done that step, if

84
00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:34,800
Speaker 3: they hadn't done that at all, then President Biden the

85
00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:37,599
Speaker 3: Senate would be able to basically trash the Republicans for

86
00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:40,240
Speaker 3: not having done anything to raise the debt ceiling. So

87
00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:43,800
Speaker 3: from a political argument standpoint, they have moved forward. But

88
00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:46,080
Speaker 3: to the point you were making before, it's not just

89
00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:49,119
Speaker 3: a debt ceiling increase, but you're talking about three point

90
00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:53,880
Speaker 3: six trillion dollars of cuts over the next decade, all

91
00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:58,000
Speaker 3: in discretionary spending. So discretionary is the spending that's done

92
00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:01,560
Speaker 3: annually by Congress rather than and the mandatory spending, the

93
00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:05,000
Speaker 3: sort of autopilot programs like Medicare and Social Security.

94
00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:08,880
Speaker 1: Right, And I just want to point out, so, now

95
00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:11,599
Speaker 1: what happens now with this? They take us a Senate,

96
00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:14,880
Speaker 1: it dies, They take this to Biden. I mean, this

97
00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:18,560
Speaker 1: is sort of their hope of like their sort of

98
00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:22,440
Speaker 1: foray into trying to get Biden to cut spending as

99
00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:27,039
Speaker 1: a way to not have to crash the economy.

100
00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:29,560
Speaker 3: Well, correct, I mean the next step is for the

101
00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:32,400
Speaker 3: Senate to try to pass something, and that's going to

102
00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:36,120
Speaker 3: be difficult because you have fifty Democratic senators, and one

103
00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:40,279
Speaker 3: of those Democratic senators, Joe Manchin, is publicly out there

104
00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:43,119
Speaker 3: saying very loudly that he believes that the White House

105
00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:47,240
Speaker 3: should negotiate with McCarthy on spending cuts. So I don't

106
00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:49,400
Speaker 3: think you can expect that it's likely to be very

107
00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:51,320
Speaker 3: quick that the Senate would be able to pass a

108
00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:54,800
Speaker 3: debt ceiling and increase that doesn't include spending cuts. So

109
00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:58,359
Speaker 3: there will probably be some internal negotiation among the Democrats

110
00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:01,200
Speaker 3: where Chuck, Schumer and Mansion sit in a room or

111
00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:03,839
Speaker 3: trade paper and trying to figure out what it is

112
00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:05,160
Speaker 3: Joe Manchin can vote for.

113
00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:07,760
Speaker 1: So let's talk about Joe mangic for me, because Joe

114
00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:10,800
Speaker 1: Manchin is in a very precarious spot. He is going

115
00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:14,280
Speaker 1: to run against Jim Justice or for president.

116
00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:15,200
Speaker 4: Oh God.

117
00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:19,920
Speaker 1: The West Virginia Republican governor is wildly popular. He used

118
00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:23,440
Speaker 1: to be a Democrat because everyone in West Virginia used

119
00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:26,039
Speaker 1: to be a Democrat, as the place is crazy. He

120
00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:30,279
Speaker 1: is now a Republican. He has a bulldog called baby Girl.

121
00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:31,880
Speaker 1: People really like him.

122
00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:32,559
Speaker 4: Is that fair?

123
00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:36,000
Speaker 3: I think all of those things are fair. He's well liked.

124
00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:38,719
Speaker 3: He has a primary on the Republican side.

125
00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:41,960
Speaker 1: He's very rich, and he owns the Greenbrier, and he's

126
00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:45,480
Speaker 1: like one of the more famous famous West Virginians.

127
00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:47,080
Speaker 4: Who is his primary.

128
00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:51,080
Speaker 3: A congressman named Alex Moody from West Virginia who is

129
00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:55,040
Speaker 3: very well regarded by the Freedom Caucus types and some

130
00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:58,480
Speaker 3: of the Club for Growth conservatives. So there could be

131
00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:00,920
Speaker 3: a fight in that primary. Justice together, as he said,

132
00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:03,640
Speaker 3: it's very popular in the state and he's very wealthy,

133
00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:06,359
Speaker 3: So it would be a surprise if he lost that primary.

134
00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:09,720
Speaker 3: But it wouldn't be a shock if he lost that primary.

135
00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:12,280
Speaker 3: I was to say there's a non zero chance that

136
00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:14,960
Speaker 3: he could lose the primary, but if he wins the primary,

137
00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:19,640
Speaker 3: Justice again very popular statewide elected official. Mansion's popularity seems

138
00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:22,760
Speaker 3: to have been dwindling some over recent years, in part

139
00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:27,440
Speaker 3: because he supported what Biden called the Inflation Reduction Act last.

140
00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:30,880
Speaker 1: Year, which he's now really turned on and he's sort

141
00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:33,480
Speaker 1: of trying Monday Morning quarterback about.

142
00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:36,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, and honestly, that bill was written to satisfy Joe

143
00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:39,080
Speaker 3: Manchell because it's the only way they can make it law, right.

144
00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:41,120
Speaker 3: I mean, you could have called it the Mansion Inflation

145
00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:42,920
Speaker 3: Bill if you'd wanted to, right.

146
00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:47,040
Speaker 1: So I want to ask you, now we have this

147
00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:48,400
Speaker 1: Joe Mansion.

148
00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:51,440
Speaker 4: He's turned on this bill.

149
00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:54,560
Speaker 1: He has become sort of the I mean, I don't

150
00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:57,920
Speaker 1: know if you saw there was a Republican on Dana

151
00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:01,880
Speaker 1: Bash's show, hersyn show this morning talking about how he's

152
00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:04,960
Speaker 1: going to negotiate with Mansion, and Mansion was going to

153
00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:08,560
Speaker 1: be the key. He's become sort of the Republican favorite

154
00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:10,120
Speaker 1: because I think they think they.

155
00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:11,360
Speaker 4: Have him, which they may.

156
00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:15,480
Speaker 1: But I want to ask you, like, I mean, this

157
00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:19,640
Speaker 1: is just nonsensical, right, I Mean, is there some reason

158
00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:24,400
Speaker 1: why mansion is the go to here.

159
00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:27,840
Speaker 3: Well, number one, because Joe Manchin realizes that the fifty

160
00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:30,640
Speaker 3: Democratic member Senate, he has a whole lot of leverage

161
00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:32,400
Speaker 3: if he holds down on things right, So it puts

162
00:08:32,440 --> 00:08:33,840
Speaker 3: them at the center of the discussion.

163
00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:37,400
Speaker 1: Right, But isn't it it's fifty one. It's just that

164
00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:41,160
Speaker 1: one of the senators doesn't want to resign.

165
00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:43,280
Speaker 3: Well, it's yeah, I mean the point of the margin

166
00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:48,360
Speaker 3: is so small here that Joe Manchin has effective.

167
00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:50,840
Speaker 1: Right, But you could have fifty one if dii FI

168
00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:51,600
Speaker 1: would resign.

169
00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:55,439
Speaker 4: But I understand that she is eighty nine and has

170
00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:58,079
Speaker 4: no plans to return, so why should she be pressured

171
00:08:58,080 --> 00:08:58,480
Speaker 4: to resign?

172
00:08:58,600 --> 00:08:59,080
Speaker 2: Continue?

173
00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:00,560
Speaker 4: Sorry, going to say the.

174
00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:02,520
Speaker 3: Margins very small. Of course, we don't know what Senator

175
00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:05,480
Speaker 3: Cinema from Arizona will do in any given situation. I mean,

176
00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:07,880
Speaker 3: there are, for lack of a vetter, trump cats and

177
00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:11,480
Speaker 3: dogs that Chuck Schumer has to manage in order to

178
00:09:11,559 --> 00:09:14,800
Speaker 3: get to the majority vote that he needs to pass

179
00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:18,320
Speaker 3: things right. And to your point, because Diane Feinstein has gone,

180
00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:21,800
Speaker 3: you effectively have fifty Democratic senators right now, and if

181
00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:25,360
Speaker 3: you turn that into forty nine Democratic senators because a

182
00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:28,160
Speaker 3: mansion or a cinema decides they're not going to vote

183
00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:31,600
Speaker 3: for a clean debt ceiling or for any other particular thing,

184
00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:33,520
Speaker 3: then you know you no longer have the ability to

185
00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:34,400
Speaker 3: pass legislation.

186
00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:36,760
Speaker 1: I don't know if you read that McKay copp and

187
00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:42,480
Speaker 1: Kirsten Cinema piece, but he interviewed her and she didn't

188
00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:44,280
Speaker 1: necessarily say she was going to run again.

189
00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:45,600
Speaker 4: Do you think she's going to run again?

190
00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:47,720
Speaker 3: I think she will take a look at what the

191
00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:51,440
Speaker 3: polls tell her about the ability to win either a

192
00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:54,559
Speaker 3: Democratic primary or the general election in Arizona, and may

193
00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:57,920
Speaker 3: ultimately make a decision based on whether there's any chance

194
00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:00,439
Speaker 3: of her winning. I think it is difficult for her

195
00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:01,800
Speaker 3: to do both of those things.

196
00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:05,880
Speaker 1: So let's talk out this debt ceiling drama. This happens now.

197
00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:08,680
Speaker 1: It looks like July. The Treasury is saying it happens

198
00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:09,080
Speaker 1: in July.

199
00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:11,800
Speaker 4: What do you think this looks like? Now?

200
00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:14,480
Speaker 3: I'm not sure I have family friendly words to describe

201
00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:15,760
Speaker 3: what this looks like right now?

202
00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:17,440
Speaker 4: So good is what you're saying?

203
00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:19,679
Speaker 3: Yeah, what I'm saying is that like the word that

204
00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:22,960
Speaker 3: I would use to describe it starts with cluster. Look

205
00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:25,880
Speaker 3: at say, July. There's always some ability the Treasury Department

206
00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:29,880
Speaker 3: to forestall and using emergency measures, extraordinary measures or whatever

207
00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:32,959
Speaker 3: to forestall default. You never know exactly what's going to

208
00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:35,599
Speaker 3: come in revenue wise, so not going to affect the

209
00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:39,280
Speaker 3: real zero hour, meaning if there are more revenues than

210
00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:42,280
Speaker 3: they expect in, that zero hour gets pushed back. If

211
00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:45,040
Speaker 3: there are less revenues than they expect in, the zero

212
00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:48,600
Speaker 3: hour moves up earlier on the calendar. But Hairess moves slowly.

213
00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:52,880
Speaker 3: And anybody who thinks that number one, they will resolve

214
00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:56,880
Speaker 3: this before they absolutely have to, or number two, that

215
00:10:57,080 --> 00:10:59,120
Speaker 3: it will be easy to do has not watched this

216
00:10:59,200 --> 00:10:59,959
Speaker 3: process play out.

217
00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:04,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I mean I think we've really seen that.

218
00:11:04,679 --> 00:11:08,360
Speaker 1: I mean, I think there were periods when these Republicans

219
00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:14,080
Speaker 1: were a little more focused on kind of the sort

220
00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:17,600
Speaker 1: of more traditional behavior, but now it seems unlikely to

221
00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:21,240
Speaker 1: make that. These Republicans, they're not really incentivized to make

222
00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:22,800
Speaker 1: a deal with the Democrats.

223
00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:26,840
Speaker 3: Well, the Republican base has become increasingly populist over time,

224
00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:30,080
Speaker 3: and that's sort of changed the nature of the Republican

225
00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:33,400
Speaker 3: Party's elected officials in terms of what they see as

226
00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:35,880
Speaker 3: I mean, it needs and what they're most worried about

227
00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:39,200
Speaker 3: it at a given moment is that somebody will primary them,

228
00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:41,680
Speaker 3: sort of from the populist side, no matter how populous

229
00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:45,760
Speaker 3: they are. And they are less concerned about what donors,

230
00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:49,920
Speaker 3: major corporations or on Wall Street think, because while those

231
00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:53,760
Speaker 3: people fund campaigns, they are not usually in the position

232
00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:57,800
Speaker 3: to take these members out, whereas the sort of grassroots

233
00:11:57,840 --> 00:11:58,840
Speaker 3: based elector it is.

234
00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:03,800
Speaker 2: Right, So I want to ask you, like, what happens now?

235
00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:07,360
Speaker 3: I mean, it's a great question. I've watched the fiscal

236
00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:12,040
Speaker 3: cliff lay out, yeah, right, like during the Obama administration

237
00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:15,440
Speaker 3: in particular, and there's at one point like the incentives

238
00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:18,760
Speaker 3: for everybody where like whether default happened, and actually there was,

239
00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:22,280
Speaker 3: they briefly went beyond the deadline once. The problem is

240
00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:26,480
Speaker 3: that there's not an easy answer here that makes everybody happy,

241
00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:30,760
Speaker 3: or at least makes everybody not curious. So I think

242
00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:32,640
Speaker 3: the next step is for the Senate to pass something.

243
00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:34,240
Speaker 3: If Chuck Schuber can figure out how to pass the

244
00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:36,880
Speaker 3: dead ceiling with no spending cuts, then he'll do that,

245
00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:38,840
Speaker 3: but I think that will be very difficult for him

246
00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:41,880
Speaker 3: to do. So then the question is whether it's spending

247
00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:44,520
Speaker 3: cuts or tax increases, Like, what is it that they

248
00:12:44,559 --> 00:12:48,760
Speaker 3: can do to offset future deficits? I think tax increases

249
00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:50,920
Speaker 3: are off the table because you've got a Republican House.

250
00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:54,120
Speaker 3: So are there spending cuts that the Democrats can find

251
00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:57,840
Speaker 3: that they are happy with that make Joe Manchin happy

252
00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:00,600
Speaker 3: that in the event Dianne Feinstein is able to come

253
00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:03,400
Speaker 3: back for a vote or whatnot, But basically make all

254
00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:06,360
Speaker 3: of the Democrats happy. Can they find that and can

255
00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:08,320
Speaker 3: they do it quickly so that they can kind of

256
00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:11,679
Speaker 3: go from whatever their strongest position is, and maybe their

257
00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:14,679
Speaker 3: strongest position is they just blame the Republicans for a

258
00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:17,720
Speaker 3: default and watch everything burn. But I don't think that's

259
00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:20,840
Speaker 3: really the interests of an incumbent president. I think anybody

260
00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:23,400
Speaker 3: who's sitting in a position of power at a time

261
00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:26,880
Speaker 3: and everything burns down is pretty vulnerable. And by the

262
00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:29,200
Speaker 3: same token, anybody who's not sitting in a position of

263
00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:32,679
Speaker 3: powers in a much stronger place if everything starts to

264
00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:33,319
Speaker 3: burned own.

265
00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:37,439
Speaker 1: I mean, I think Republicans want to see it burn anyway,

266
00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:39,960
Speaker 1: because these are people who and again, I know you're

267
00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:42,160
Speaker 1: a straight reporter, so I'm not going to try to

268
00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:44,880
Speaker 1: ask your opinion, but it is my opinion that a

269
00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:47,360
Speaker 1: lot of these people would like to drown the federal

270
00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:52,240
Speaker 1: government in the bathtub, So burning it down works for that.

271
00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:54,160
Speaker 4: If that's your worldview.

272
00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:56,000
Speaker 3: Well, I think I would say that there are sort

273
00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:58,679
Speaker 3: of two different factors or two different things going on here.

274
00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:02,360
Speaker 3: What is absolutely there's a strong element of the Republican

275
00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:04,880
Speaker 3: Party that believes what Grover north Christ once said, which

276
00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:07,080
Speaker 3: is that he would like to shrink government down to

277
00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:09,679
Speaker 3: the size that he could drive in the baptop, right,

278
00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:11,240
Speaker 3: like that was what he wanted to do. And I

279
00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:13,640
Speaker 3: think there is a significant amount of support for that view,

280
00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:16,800
Speaker 3: generally speaking, in the Republican Party. But you know, the

281
00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:18,959
Speaker 3: other piece of it is, I think there are a

282
00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:21,720
Speaker 3: lot of Republicans who believe that if they are sitting

283
00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:25,480
Speaker 3: in power, like putting aside the fact that there are

284
00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:27,120
Speaker 3: a number of Republicans that would like to see the

285
00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:30,440
Speaker 3: United States not default because they are patriots and want

286
00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:33,200
Speaker 3: a strong economy and all those things, putting that aside

287
00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:35,040
Speaker 3: from it just from a political level, like I said,

288
00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:39,360
Speaker 3: anybody who's in office, if everything crumbles, if there's a

289
00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:42,680
Speaker 3: global recession, if the US the full faith and credit

290
00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:43,840
Speaker 3: of the United States.

291
00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:46,520
Speaker 1: Is they're all going to get the blame ultimately, but

292
00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:48,680
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter. I mean that involves a kind of

293
00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:53,000
Speaker 1: forethought which a lot of these legislators may not have

294
00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:56,800
Speaker 1: because there are Republicans. Again, since you're straight reporting, you

295
00:14:56,840 --> 00:14:59,960
Speaker 1: can just listen and you don't have to agree or disagree.

296
00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:04,120
Speaker 1: But I'm just saying that if your general gestalt is

297
00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:07,240
Speaker 1: kill the federal government, that does help.

298
00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:09,920
Speaker 3: Molly. I appreciate being window dressing on the show.

299
00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:16,880
Speaker 1: So we'll see some kind of response to this in

300
00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:20,960
Speaker 1: the Senate and then a lot of fighting until.

301
00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:23,760
Speaker 3: July, and before you see a response, you'll probably see

302
00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:26,920
Speaker 3: the White House in the Senate just bash the House, right,

303
00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:28,680
Speaker 3: I mean, until the Senate can figure out what it's

304
00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:32,120
Speaker 3: going to do. You're going to have Biden and Schumer

305
00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:36,840
Speaker 3: and all of the other Democrats basically say that the Republicans'

306
00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:40,240
Speaker 3: offer is not serious and that they are pushing America

307
00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:43,520
Speaker 3: toward default because they're not serious. And they will. But

308
00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:46,360
Speaker 3: anybody's guesses how the public reads all of it. I

309
00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:48,680
Speaker 3: suppose most of it will be through a partisan lens

310
00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:51,280
Speaker 3: as to who's at fault for things. But to the

311
00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:54,800
Speaker 3: extent that they are persuadable Americans out there the Democrats

312
00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:57,240
Speaker 3: will do their best to persuade Americans, and the Republicans

313
00:15:57,240 --> 00:16:00,160
Speaker 3: are playing games with default and not being serious and

314
00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:02,960
Speaker 3: know what they've passed in the House is pushing the

315
00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:05,440
Speaker 3: country closer to the fault, not further away from it.

316
00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:09,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I mean that seems right, John Allen? What

317
00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:10,520
Speaker 4: is keeping you up at night?

318
00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:14,239
Speaker 3: Besides this, I've been traveling with basically following the Republican

319
00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:17,200
Speaker 3: presidential primary campaign a lot lately. So I was just

320
00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:22,240
Speaker 3: in Manchester, New Hampshire with Donald Trump on Wednesday and

321
00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:25,200
Speaker 3: Thursday of this week. He was there Thursday, basically been

322
00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:26,760
Speaker 3: to a whole bunch of Trump events, a couple of

323
00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:29,480
Speaker 3: DISSANTUS events. What keeps me up at night is like,

324
00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:30,400
Speaker 3: how do I cover this?

325
00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:32,600
Speaker 4: How do I get to Tallahassee?

326
00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:35,560
Speaker 3: Right? I have not been to Tallahassee during this presidential cycle.

327
00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:38,000
Speaker 3: I have been there before. I'm perfectly happy to go

328
00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:41,080
Speaker 3: to Tallahassee if and when it's necessary. But what keeps

329
00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:42,920
Speaker 3: me up at night is like, how to cover this

330
00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:46,160
Speaker 3: presidential primary the right way and how to cover the

331
00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:49,600
Speaker 3: general election because I also do coverage of Biden and

332
00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:53,160
Speaker 3: the Democrats. How to cover this campaign in a way

333
00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:55,360
Speaker 3: that is most useful for readers.

334
00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:57,560
Speaker 1: John Allen, thanks for joining us.

335
00:16:57,680 --> 00:16:59,280
Speaker 3: Thank you. John bost.

336
00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:05,560
Speaker 1: Day of Mandel is the producer and director of The

337
00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:10,760
Speaker 1: White House Plumbers. Welcome back, Too Fast Politics, my friend

338
00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:11,840
Speaker 1: and yours.

339
00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:12,399
Speaker 2: Dave Mandell.

340
00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:18,600
Speaker 1: Hey, I'm back so the White House Plumbers. You're here

341
00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:21,440
Speaker 1: to publicize The White House Plumbers, which I have actually

342
00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:25,000
Speaker 1: seen and is incredible. First, I want to ask you,

343
00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:29,320
Speaker 1: how did you find yourself in White House Plumbers Land?

344
00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:31,879
Speaker 5: I found myself in White House Plumbers Land in a

345
00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:35,080
Speaker 5: really sort of strange way because it really goes back

346
00:17:35,119 --> 00:17:39,520
Speaker 5: to when VEEP ended, and in a funny way, the

347
00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:45,360
Speaker 5: last thing I was necessarily looking for was more politics,

348
00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:49,320
Speaker 5: you know what I mean right, More incompetent, power hungry people.

349
00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:49,520
Speaker 1: You know.

350
00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:52,359
Speaker 5: It was not what I was looking for. Per Se

351
00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:55,679
Speaker 5: and two of the writers from VEEP, Alex Gregory and

352
00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:58,640
Speaker 5: Pete Pike, had been working on and they had put

353
00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:02,080
Speaker 5: this together with Woody and Justin, and they had put

354
00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:05,040
Speaker 5: together the first script and they were asking you to

355
00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:06,920
Speaker 5: put together a little writer's room, which is a very

356
00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:09,159
Speaker 5: typical thing, which, by the way, is one of the

357
00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:11,720
Speaker 5: things I believe that the writer's bill will be striking

358
00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:14,520
Speaker 5: about next month. So I went in to help, and honestly,

359
00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:16,320
Speaker 5: I was not mad about this. I want to be

360
00:18:16,359 --> 00:18:18,320
Speaker 5: really clear, this is this is a thing that's a

361
00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:20,800
Speaker 5: problem in our industry. But in this case, this is

362
00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:24,040
Speaker 5: two friends asking me to come help and HBO asking

363
00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:26,399
Speaker 5: me to come help, both of whom I like and

364
00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:29,479
Speaker 5: want to help. So I went in to you know,

365
00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:31,960
Speaker 5: just sort of help them with what they had, and

366
00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:35,920
Speaker 5: a week later we had the shape of the five

367
00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:39,520
Speaker 5: episodes and I was the director. And I'm not quite

368
00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:42,679
Speaker 5: sure how any of that happened. Yeah, amazing, sort of

369
00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:45,280
Speaker 5: very ass backwards, but in a great way.

370
00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:49,280
Speaker 2: So yeah, so explained us what the journey there was.

371
00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:52,200
Speaker 5: Well, it's sort of a two part thing, and obviously

372
00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:54,960
Speaker 5: there's a small break for COVID as well, because this

373
00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:58,960
Speaker 5: goes all the way back to before the before the shutdown. So,

374
00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:02,800
Speaker 5: you know, the director, I'm working with the writers, I'm

375
00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:05,439
Speaker 5: i'm I'm helping to shape it, I'm helping to guide it.

376
00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:08,000
Speaker 5: And then as we get going, I start trying to

377
00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:10,240
Speaker 5: put together, you know, the team. You know, I'm trying

378
00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:13,840
Speaker 5: to hire the production designer, the DP, and I'm starting

379
00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:16,639
Speaker 5: to sort of both think and talk about what I

380
00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:18,960
Speaker 5: wanted to look like, what I wanted to feel like.

381
00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:21,679
Speaker 5: And the big thing on this one, among other things,

382
00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:25,200
Speaker 5: was also the tone, because it's a very unique tone.

383
00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:29,239
Speaker 5: It's very funny, but it's not jokey like Deep. I mean,

384
00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:31,400
Speaker 5: you've seen it. It's not we don't write we don't

385
00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:34,520
Speaker 5: write jokes. There's not you know, there's not those written

386
00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:38,680
Speaker 5: jokes that obviously Deep was famous for. This is it's

387
00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:41,439
Speaker 5: a character thing. It is very serious. It's you know,

388
00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:45,720
Speaker 5: we're talking about the president of the United States basically

389
00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:50,680
Speaker 5: committing illegal acts, trying to subvert democracy, trying to subvert

390
00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:53,680
Speaker 5: the will of the people. And yet at the same time,

391
00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:57,199
Speaker 5: even though this is serious business, you cannot help but

392
00:19:57,359 --> 00:20:01,600
Speaker 5: laugh as we sort of dug Deep. We're into the details.

393
00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:04,000
Speaker 5: And so when you find out I thought I was

394
00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:06,959
Speaker 5: a Watergate expert, and all of a sudden, I'm reading

395
00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:09,840
Speaker 5: and finding out about the fact that there were actually

396
00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:14,159
Speaker 5: four Watergate break ins, that they actually they broke in,

397
00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:17,800
Speaker 5: planted the bugs once the bugs didn't work, and they

398
00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:21,520
Speaker 5: had to go back in, and you kind of start laughing,

399
00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:25,080
Speaker 5: and it's an uncomfortable laugh, but you are laughing, and

400
00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:28,280
Speaker 5: I just kind of say, it's a really funny tragedy,

401
00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:31,520
Speaker 5: but at all times, even though it's funny, again, the

402
00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:33,760
Speaker 5: horrible tragedy that well, I don't know, you know, just

403
00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:37,320
Speaker 5: just the nightmare. That was what that president tried to do.

404
00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:40,399
Speaker 5: So that's what a director does in a nutshell and

405
00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:42,520
Speaker 5: you start casting, you start putting it all together.

406
00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:46,560
Speaker 1: Is this the first major movie you've directed?

407
00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:49,240
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, you know, they call it. It's so funny.

408
00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:51,280
Speaker 5: They call it. Everything has a category in a name,

409
00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:54,360
Speaker 5: so they call it like a limitary, that's what they

410
00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:56,840
Speaker 5: call it. Yes, but this is the first time that

411
00:20:56,920 --> 00:21:00,720
Speaker 5: I've actually sort of I guess it's funny that I directed.

412
00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:03,320
Speaker 5: I directed a lot of VP and I and I

413
00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:07,080
Speaker 5: loved directing VP, but it had a house style, you know,

414
00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:10,120
Speaker 5: it looked VIEP looks a certain way I've directed. Curb

415
00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:12,840
Speaker 5: your enthusiasm, it looks a certain way. This is the

416
00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:15,520
Speaker 5: first time I actually directed something where I could sort

417
00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:18,240
Speaker 5: of have fun with the look. You know, the seventies

418
00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:20,520
Speaker 5: and I don't mean fun. You know, we were we

419
00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:24,960
Speaker 5: get our best to avoid you know, mustard yellow turtlenecks,

420
00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:28,600
Speaker 5: you know, the seventies cliches. But I was able to

421
00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:32,440
Speaker 5: kind of like dig deep into my favorite like seventies movies,

422
00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:35,439
Speaker 5: like you know, Marathon Man, a Parallax View and of

423
00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:39,119
Speaker 5: course all the President's men, right and kind of you know,

424
00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:43,119
Speaker 5: embrace the seventies a bit, but through you in a

425
00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:45,760
Speaker 5: perfect world, through a modern lens. So yeah, I.

426
00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:50,879
Speaker 1: Wondered if you could talk a little bed about I

427
00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:53,840
Speaker 1: want to say the lessons from Watergate for.

428
00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:57,480
Speaker 5: Me, what I think, and this is this is America.

429
00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:00,159
Speaker 5: America has a problem which it has sort of like know,

430
00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:03,720
Speaker 5: short term memory loss, which is different than the short

431
00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:06,199
Speaker 5: term memory loss I have in my real life at

432
00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:08,879
Speaker 5: this point, which is to say, yeah, I mean I

433
00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:11,320
Speaker 5: literally you know, it's like I'll sit there and be like,

434
00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:13,480
Speaker 5: who's that person? And then I'll think about it for

435
00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:15,520
Speaker 5: a while, and then when I think about something else,

436
00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:17,479
Speaker 5: I'm like, oh, now I remember their name. But anyway,

437
00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:19,359
Speaker 5: here's what happens. I mean, it's again, it's sort of

438
00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:22,320
Speaker 5: a little history lesson. We had Watergate and they you know,

439
00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:25,200
Speaker 5: they found out about it, and you know, we elected

440
00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:29,400
Speaker 5: Jimmy Carter, and we passed a whole bunch of ethics things,

441
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:32,480
Speaker 5: you know, epic new ethics laws, you know, in the

442
00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:35,680
Speaker 5: in the house and stuff. And then I think there's

443
00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:39,440
Speaker 5: this just mistake of thinking we fixed it, we sanded it,

444
00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:41,880
Speaker 5: and it's kind of you know, it's kind of like Obama.

445
00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:45,679
Speaker 5: It's like we elected Obama and we solved racism. Yeah,

446
00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:52,199
Speaker 5: and guess what it turns out you do. And so

447
00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:54,639
Speaker 5: there's this thing that kind of went on with Trump.

448
00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:57,040
Speaker 5: And I'm sure you were you you heard it a

449
00:22:57,119 --> 00:23:01,120
Speaker 5: thousand times from people where when Trump sort of popped up,

450
00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:04,040
Speaker 5: there was this sense that like from people of like,

451
00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:08,480
Speaker 5: oh my god, this is new. We've never seen anything

452
00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:11,480
Speaker 5: like this, this is this is oh my god, this

453
00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:15,720
Speaker 5: where did this come from? All something? It's never been

454
00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:18,920
Speaker 5: like this? And the honest answer is it has it

455
00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:21,840
Speaker 5: has been like this. And we can just draw a

456
00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:28,159
Speaker 5: direct line from Watergate, right too, Donald Trump. The same paranoia,

457
00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:33,719
Speaker 5: the same war on the press, the same abuses of power,

458
00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:37,679
Speaker 5: and in some cases abuses of power where you didn't

459
00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:41,160
Speaker 5: you didn't even need to bother abusing power. One could

460
00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:44,960
Speaker 5: make the argument just and I guess the honest answer,

461
00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:47,919
Speaker 5: the lessons of Watergate in a perfect world, or at

462
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:51,160
Speaker 5: least of this project are maybe and this is kind

463
00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:53,120
Speaker 5: of what you know, you and John actually were talking

464
00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:55,879
Speaker 5: about the other night on TV John Allen is to

465
00:23:55,920 --> 00:24:01,040
Speaker 5: hopefully one remind people what Watergate was, this even happened,

466
00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:03,680
Speaker 5: because I think there are people that you know, don't

467
00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 5: know Watergate, don't know Nixon. Maybe they know the word gate,

468
00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:09,439
Speaker 5: but you know, to them it's like I don't know

469
00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:13,720
Speaker 5: Kanye Gate or whatever. You know. We did an episode,

470
00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:16,680
Speaker 5: we did an episode of Meat that was all about Gates,

471
00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:20,120
Speaker 5: and of course we did ours was the Gate? See

472
00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:21,520
Speaker 5: you next Tuesday Gate? Yeah?

473
00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:23,119
Speaker 2: Yes, but I give.

474
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:23,760
Speaker 4: Away the end.

475
00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:25,359
Speaker 2: They all said it.

476
00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:28,959
Speaker 5: Sorry, they all said it exactly. But you know, we

477
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:31,280
Speaker 5: did lots of talking in that episode about it. It's

478
00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:33,120
Speaker 5: not a gate, it's a gate. It's not a gate,

479
00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:35,680
Speaker 5: it's a gate. Well what is a gate? Well, here

480
00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:38,000
Speaker 5: we are Watergate. So I don't know. I guess My

481
00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:41,879
Speaker 5: honest answer is to a hope people remember this went on,

482
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:45,000
Speaker 5: and you know, and in the perfect world, remind people

483
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:47,760
Speaker 5: about like what it means to abuse power. I know

484
00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:50,240
Speaker 5: that that for me is the biggie and then the

485
00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:53,119
Speaker 5: other thing to me when I look at Watergate, when

486
00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:55,040
Speaker 5: I look at Hunt and Liddy, because this is very

487
00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:57,119
Speaker 5: much you know, this is the story of this is.

488
00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:58,720
Speaker 2: Really the Hunt and Liddy story.

489
00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:02,120
Speaker 5: Yeah, yes, exactly like they to me, and I don't

490
00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:04,960
Speaker 5: know it's the fawn bird. But to me, the other

491
00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:07,520
Speaker 5: big topic that I want people to take away from

492
00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:11,800
Speaker 5: this is this the sort of the birth of true believerism.

493
00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:15,239
Speaker 5: That these these people who in the name of in

494
00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:19,440
Speaker 5: this case Nixon and the Republican Party and whatnot, put

495
00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:25,640
Speaker 5: their their lives and family secondary to the cause that

496
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:30,280
Speaker 5: they they're so there's such you know, holy warriors of

497
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:34,840
Speaker 5: this sort of Nixonian cause that they don't even realize

498
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:38,680
Speaker 5: the damage that they're doing to themselves, let alone the country.

499
00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:40,600
Speaker 5: And I just think this is you know, we talk

500
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:45,200
Speaker 5: about partisanship right now in America, but it's more than partisanship.

501
00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:49,920
Speaker 5: It is this crazy true believerism that just polluted the waters.

502
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:52,680
Speaker 5: And so that's another thing that I guess I kept

503
00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:55,120
Speaker 5: thinking a lot about as we were doing this thing.

504
00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:57,959
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, that seems really clear when you watch it.

505
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:02,159
Speaker 1: And the other thing that I'm was drunk by was,

506
00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:04,679
Speaker 1: you know, the little bit of a difference between the

507
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:05,120
Speaker 1: two men.

508
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:08,239
Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, it's interesting. Hunt was kind of a

509
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:10,520
Speaker 5: has been I mean, that's the busiest way of saying it.

510
00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:15,199
Speaker 5: He had been important, and now there's this sort of

511
00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 5: almost desperation to matter again, and that's kind of what

512
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:21,879
Speaker 5: drives him a little bit. You know. On set, we

513
00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:24,840
Speaker 5: talked a lot about almost like a Willy Lowman as

514
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:29,480
Speaker 5: kind of death of a salesman, desperation to be important,

515
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:32,760
Speaker 5: and Lyddy is almost the flip side. Lyddy's a a

516
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:37,040
Speaker 5: never was, but he's equally desperate to matter, you know

517
00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:39,639
Speaker 5: what I mean. He's bounced around, he failed out of

518
00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:43,440
Speaker 5: the FBI, he kind of you know, tried running for government.

519
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:47,240
Speaker 5: He kind of just wanted to be important. In some ways,

520
00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:51,359
Speaker 5: he's an incredibly modern figure because in nineteen seventy two

521
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:55,880
Speaker 5: he's a guy that wants to be famous and doesn't

522
00:26:56,000 --> 00:27:01,040
Speaker 5: care even if he becomes famous. For the nineteen seventy

523
00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:04,800
Speaker 5: two equivalent of getting out of a limo and flashing

524
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:07,600
Speaker 5: his ball, you know what I mean, Like he didn't Yeah,

525
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,480
Speaker 5: he didn't care how it happened. He just wanted it

526
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:14,320
Speaker 5: to happen, and that he wants to matter. He also,

527
00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:18,040
Speaker 5: in that desperation that kind of pours out of both

528
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:21,280
Speaker 5: of them, is just like a like a dangerous TNT

529
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:24,159
Speaker 5: kind of you know, kind of mix I don't know.

530
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:26,160
Speaker 5: So that's that's one of the things that I think

531
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:28,720
Speaker 5: kind of interesting. And by the way, in the end,

532
00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:30,439
Speaker 5: and I guess we are jumping to the end, but

533
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:32,280
Speaker 5: again I like to you know, one of the things

534
00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:35,280
Speaker 5: we joked a lot about is there's no season too.

535
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:39,439
Speaker 5: Everybody goes to Dale except Nixon. He resigned. But in

536
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:42,720
Speaker 5: the end, Lyddy such as it is, gets what he

537
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:46,000
Speaker 5: wanted in a way. He becomes sort of infamous and

538
00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:49,480
Speaker 5: famous and he's a you know, he becomes a punchline

539
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:56,120
Speaker 5: on Johnny Carson for sticking to his insane guns. That's well,

540
00:27:56,400 --> 00:28:00,159
Speaker 5: do the Hunt family. Hunt just ruined his family and

541
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:03,760
Speaker 5: you cannot watch again. You cannot watch what these guys do,

542
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 5: and your brain just jumps to the you know, the

543
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:10,600
Speaker 5: Michael Cohnes of the world, these guys that he's gonna

544
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:13,520
Speaker 5: take care of me. He loves me. Oh you know,

545
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:17,040
Speaker 5: I'm his favorite. He gave me a gold star on

546
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:22,120
Speaker 5: you know, there's a moment in the show in episode

547
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:24,639
Speaker 5: four where things are starting to go wrong, you know,

548
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 5: think the public has found out about it. Things are

549
00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:29,000
Speaker 5: starting to the walls are starting to close in a

550
00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:32,000
Speaker 5: little bit. But they're watching Election night of course, you know,

551
00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:36,200
Speaker 5: Nixon is destroying McGovern and you know, Lydia is bragging

552
00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:39,400
Speaker 5: to his family about a memo that he sent the

553
00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:43,120
Speaker 5: president that he's heard second hand as the President gave

554
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:46,560
Speaker 5: an a plus two. And it's like a small little boy,

555
00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:49,520
Speaker 5: you know, in a very very sort of I don't

556
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:52,400
Speaker 5: want to say sad, because we should not have sympathy

557
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:54,880
Speaker 5: for these guys, but it is sad, you know what

558
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:58,000
Speaker 5: I mean, like like maybe occasionally a little empathy if

559
00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:00,680
Speaker 5: we did our job, but never s empathy, if that,

560
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 5: If that.

561
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:04,120
Speaker 1: Makes sense, Yeah, yeah, I want to ask you, let's

562
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:06,920
Speaker 1: talk about the writer's strike because this is super interesting.

563
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:08,959
Speaker 2: What is going on over there.

564
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:12,640
Speaker 5: Well, you know, they're negotiating right now as of I

565
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:16,840
Speaker 5: think last week, the Writer's Guild, which I am a member.

566
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:19,120
Speaker 5: I'm a member the Writer's Guild and the Director's Guild

567
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:22,520
Speaker 5: and the Screen Actors Guild oddly enough, but right now

568
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:25,959
Speaker 5: we'll talk about the Writers Guild. We have voted to

569
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:30,640
Speaker 5: allow our we've approved the strike by an overwhelming percentage,

570
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:33,280
Speaker 5: and in some ways, from what I can tell, that's

571
00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 5: when the negotiations actually begin. When everybody realizes you could strike,

572
00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:41,880
Speaker 5: is when the negotiations begin. But you know, there's a

573
00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 5: lot of issues. Since the move to streaming, among other things,

574
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:49,000
Speaker 5: shows have gotten way shorter, so number, you know, like

575
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:51,280
Speaker 5: now your average show, you know, it does like you

576
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:54,160
Speaker 5: know what, six episodes or something like that, as opposed

577
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:56,920
Speaker 5: to the twenty two you used to do. Studios are

578
00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 5: increasingly doing rooms and mini rooms where they'll put a

579
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:04,760
Speaker 5: room together and really almost come up with the six

580
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:09,240
Speaker 5: episodes then not hire a staff, not bring people in,

581
00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:13,080
Speaker 5: you know, not. So your average writer is working on

582
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:17,760
Speaker 5: shows that are on TV, but they have no residuals

583
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 5: because they're on streaming. They don't actually give you a

584
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 5: decent paychecks or not a lot of episodes. Maybe it's

585
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:27,560
Speaker 5: figured out in this mini room, which is a flat see,

586
00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:30,720
Speaker 5: you know, it's all this, it's these various things, so

587
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:33,080
Speaker 5: that writers are just not you know bring you know,

588
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:35,800
Speaker 5: are just not being able to. In some cases, writers

589
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:38,680
Speaker 5: that I've known for a long time, guys in their

590
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:42,200
Speaker 5: fifties that are no longer earning the living that they

591
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:46,040
Speaker 5: were able to make. And I'm not talking about Hawaiian vacations.

592
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:49,640
Speaker 1: These are the bread and butter writers who are not famous.

593
00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:54,280
Speaker 5: Yes, exactly, exactly, Yes, and then there's the things that

594
00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:57,560
Speaker 5: we're not even really talking about yet, which, of course,

595
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:02,040
Speaker 5: is AI right, which is, if you don't think that

596
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:05,920
Speaker 5: studios are trying to figure out can AI write a script,

597
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:09,120
Speaker 5: you're wrong. I'll just leave it at that. And they're

598
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:11,640
Speaker 5: going to do what they always do, which is they

599
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:15,240
Speaker 5: claim anything that's new. They always go, oh, it's new technology,

600
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 5: don't worry about it. It's of course, And the honest

601
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:21,520
Speaker 5: answer is they're they're you know, they're they're pleading a

602
00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:25,040
Speaker 5: little bit of poverty with studios because of obviously the

603
00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:28,440
Speaker 5: stock prices are down, and the stock prices are down

604
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:32,960
Speaker 5: because they've made certain business decisions. They went all in

605
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:37,160
Speaker 5: on streaming, they've done these giant mergers and all these things,

606
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:41,000
Speaker 5: and you know, I didn't tell them to do any

607
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:45,040
Speaker 5: of those things, so you know, I don't remember the

608
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:48,520
Speaker 5: writers getting a vote on any of that. So anyway,

609
00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:51,560
Speaker 5: I think rightly in the sense of I don't know

610
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 5: any other way to make a difference in these negotiations

611
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:58,280
Speaker 5: than to strike. However, I am not looking forward to

612
00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:00,360
Speaker 5: the strike, but I will strike, and I don't know

613
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:02,600
Speaker 5: house to put it. So that's kind of where we are.

614
00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:06,080
Speaker 1: The studios want the strike though, too, because then they

615
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:07,240
Speaker 1: can do force majure.

616
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:11,360
Speaker 5: That is obviously our own paranoia, which is it allows

617
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:14,360
Speaker 5: them to get out of a lot of deals that

618
00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:17,360
Speaker 5: they don't want to be in, and again it clears

619
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:19,480
Speaker 5: the debt sheet. You know, you start doing that kind

620
00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:22,200
Speaker 5: of stuff because look, at the end of the day,

621
00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:25,560
Speaker 5: they're just you know, it's stock price, stock price, stock price.

622
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:29,240
Speaker 5: It's sort of a very strange kind of ghost of

623
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:33,320
Speaker 5: I don't know, like Jack Welch's late eighties ge of,

624
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:35,480
Speaker 5: like it's how do we get the stock price up?

625
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:38,360
Speaker 5: Who cares if we destroy research and development? You know

626
00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:42,040
Speaker 5: what I mean? So I don't know. That's as someone

627
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:46,000
Speaker 5: not involved in the negotiations but obviously is trying to

628
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 5: pay attention. That's my sense of it.

629
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:50,960
Speaker 2: How long do you think this strike is going to last?

630
00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:55,200
Speaker 5: For whatever reason? The last one was fifteen years ago,

631
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:59,120
Speaker 5: which I oddly remember, we can't actually, Yeah, it's a

632
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:02,800
Speaker 5: strange one. My daughter was born during it, and so

633
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:06,560
Speaker 5: oddly it was a very strange thing that not having

634
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:10,240
Speaker 5: work dealt well for the birth of my daughter, helping

635
00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 5: my wife after the birth, so she was a fan.

636
00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:16,840
Speaker 5: But that one went on a little bit you know

637
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:19,760
Speaker 5: that was God, is that like seven months or something

638
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:22,760
Speaker 5: like that, or I think something like that. I may

639
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:25,720
Speaker 5: be wrong in my memory that's what it was, but

640
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:28,520
Speaker 5: I'm sure I'm wrong. I guess I just imagine it

641
00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:30,600
Speaker 5: will be. It will be something like that.

642
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:30,920
Speaker 3: Again.

643
00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:34,320
Speaker 5: The interesting difference here is the Director's Guild. Again, as

644
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:37,840
Speaker 5: I said, I'm also a member or who are finding

645
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:42,280
Speaker 5: some of the same issues, especially in terms of the

646
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:46,160
Speaker 5: shorter shows and things of that nature. Their contract runs

647
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:50,840
Speaker 5: out in June. And while of course neither I find

648
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:53,240
Speaker 5: that neither guild ever really wants to help each other

649
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:57,440
Speaker 5: in this case, the fact that these things have lined

650
00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 5: up might be something that helps perhaps bring it to

651
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:02,640
Speaker 5: an end.

652
00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:03,640
Speaker 3: But who knows.

653
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:07,800
Speaker 1: You know, very interesting. So what's next for you? Can

654
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:09,839
Speaker 1: you do another politics show?

655
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:10,320
Speaker 2: Please?

656
00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:13,839
Speaker 5: I mean, this is the funny thing, you know, As

657
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:15,280
Speaker 5: I said to you, you know, when I got involved

658
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:17,600
Speaker 5: in White House Plumbers, it wasn't the goal and I

659
00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:18,319
Speaker 5: can't I.

660
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:19,600
Speaker 4: Know we needed.

661
00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:22,600
Speaker 2: I'm sorry to whine gone.

662
00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:24,960
Speaker 5: No whine away. I know you know you know I

663
00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:27,000
Speaker 5: love it and I'm final way. I'm sorry to get

664
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:28,279
Speaker 5: to see you in New York. But after we did

665
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:31,200
Speaker 5: the New York screening. We went down to DC and

666
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:31,719
Speaker 5: it was.

667
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:35,520
Speaker 1: No I know, I heard it was amazing. Everyone I

668
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:37,320
Speaker 1: know was there and said it was incredible.

669
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 5: It was crazy. But I do have to say this.

670
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:41,440
Speaker 5: Can I tell you one little story about the screening

671
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:42,399
Speaker 5: in DC?

672
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 2: Please?

673
00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:46,160
Speaker 5: I'm not making this up. And it was so nerve wracking.

674
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:51,400
Speaker 5: Sally Quinn and Bob Woodward at the screening to watch

675
00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:54,160
Speaker 5: our little Watergate show. How insane is that?

676
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:55,200
Speaker 4: Yeah? Why not?

677
00:34:55,600 --> 00:35:00,440
Speaker 5: Yeah? And that to me was far more nerve racking

678
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:03,120
Speaker 5: than the New York screening, where, of course everyone that

679
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:05,480
Speaker 5: I ever went to, like harras Man with you know

680
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:10,960
Speaker 5: what I mean? You know, Bob Woodward watching your watching

681
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:14,359
Speaker 5: mister Watergate, watching your Watergate thing, you just you feel

682
00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:16,680
Speaker 5: like an idiot. But they both dug it, which was

683
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:19,760
Speaker 5: really cool. But I love DC. I love the world.

684
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:22,439
Speaker 5: The honest answer is much in the way I think

685
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:26,520
Speaker 5: this is related but different to meep it would be

686
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:29,719
Speaker 5: about finding something that was, you know, a different take

687
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:32,239
Speaker 5: on things, you know what I mean, I've had this.

688
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:34,240
Speaker 5: I don't know, I have this bit of an idea

689
00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:38,520
Speaker 5: that almost goes the other way about people that and

690
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:41,680
Speaker 5: I'm not talking west Wing, but I'm talking about people

691
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:45,200
Speaker 5: that actually are trying to get something done, if that

692
00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:47,800
Speaker 5: makes any sense, A little bit.

693
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:50,120
Speaker 2: Like the state level or something.

694
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:52,480
Speaker 5: What it's like but but yeah, but at the same time,

695
00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:54,680
Speaker 5: not parks and wreck either, you know what I mean,

696
00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:57,439
Speaker 5: but something about what it's like to try and take

697
00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:01,480
Speaker 5: a project on like and rying get something done, but

698
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:03,879
Speaker 5: at the same time one of these projects that's kind

699
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:07,640
Speaker 5: of impossible, like how like like if it was about

700
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:12,399
Speaker 5: like fixing education or solving homelessness, you know what I mean,

701
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:17,160
Speaker 5: where inherently there is both a perhaps a sadness and

702
00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:20,240
Speaker 5: a funny sadness to the whole thing. Anyway, I don't

703
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:23,719
Speaker 5: that's ay. Those are those are bits and pieces of

704
00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:26,360
Speaker 5: nothing that I'm pitching you. Will you buy it? Do

705
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:27,920
Speaker 5: you like it? No?

706
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:30,600
Speaker 1: But I mean yes, I'll buy it. And it's good

707
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:32,040
Speaker 1: because I have no money so.

708
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 5: Perfect that's I don't be on strike anyway, so it's fine. Yeah.

709
00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:38,960
Speaker 1: I mean, that's the thing that you realize when you're

710
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:41,839
Speaker 1: in DC is that most of these people came there

711
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:43,000
Speaker 1: to do something good.

712
00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:44,239
Speaker 5: Twelve half of them.

713
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:47,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's but you know, and they really

714
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:48,760
Speaker 1: are idealistic.

715
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:51,919
Speaker 5: No, came to do something, yes, exactly and they still

716
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:54,839
Speaker 5: have that idealism and then of course, sadly there is

717
00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:56,080
Speaker 5: that other fifty p.

718
00:36:57,600 --> 00:36:58,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's amazing.

719
00:36:58,960 --> 00:36:59,160
Speaker 1: Yeah.

720
00:36:59,280 --> 00:36:59,760
Speaker 2: So whoa.

721
00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:01,880
Speaker 1: I I'm so delighted to get to have you on

722
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:03,520
Speaker 1: the podcast. I'm such a fan.

723
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:06,520
Speaker 5: Oh my god, And thank you for watching the whole

724
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:09,480
Speaker 5: damn thing. I really meant so much when you watched

725
00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:09,919
Speaker 5: it own.

726
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:11,840
Speaker 2: Oh no, it's so good.

727
00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:14,160
Speaker 5: Oh, thank you. I appreciate it.

728
00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:17,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love it. I'm a huge, huge fan.

729
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:22,160
Speaker 1: And you and Julia have both really thrown yourself into

730
00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:25,839
Speaker 1: like doing important work for democracy, and you know, you've

731
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:30,279
Speaker 1: been involved in Wisconsin and all these small state area

732
00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:34,400
Speaker 1: fights that have really that will really add up to something.

733
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:38,680
Speaker 5: That is the hope, and we keep hammering away together separately.

734
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:41,040
Speaker 5: One of the good things aside, I mean, there were

735
00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:42,880
Speaker 5: many good things that came out of this last cycle.

736
00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:45,239
Speaker 5: Some of them were the fact that for the first time,

737
00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:47,680
Speaker 5: it feels like Democrats are starting to focus on the

738
00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:50,719
Speaker 5: state level and realizing how important it is, you know

739
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:53,720
Speaker 5: what I mean, and how a single a single Supreme

740
00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:57,520
Speaker 5: Court seat in Wisconsin can make a difference. And hopefully

741
00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:00,440
Speaker 5: that helps because you know, shows like yours that you

742
00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:03,080
Speaker 5: keep telling the audience this is important. This is important.

743
00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:05,520
Speaker 5: So thank you right back at how about that?

744
00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:08,799
Speaker 2: Oh so mutual? Thank you?

745
00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:15,200
Speaker 1: Thanks Hi, It's Mollie and I am wildly excited that

746
00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:20,080
Speaker 1: for the first time, Fast Politics, the show you're listening

747
00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:22,840
Speaker 1: to right now, is going to have merch for sale

748
00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:28,880
Speaker 1: over at shop dot Fastpoliticspod dot com.

749
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:30,839
Speaker 2: You can now buy.

750
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:36,200
Speaker 1: Shirts, hats, hoodies, and toe bags with our incredible designs.

751
00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:38,160
Speaker 2: We've heard your cries.

752
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:41,080
Speaker 1: To spread the word about our podcast and get a

753
00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:46,799
Speaker 1: tow bag with my adorable Leo the Rescue Puppy on it.

754
00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:48,920
Speaker 2: And now you can.

755
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:56,560
Speaker 1: Grab this merchandise only at shop dot fastpoliticspod dot com.

756
00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:58,120
Speaker 2: Thanks for your support.

757
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:04,279
Speaker 1: Ben Smith is the editor in chief of Semaphore and

758
00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:08,880
Speaker 1: the author of Traffic, Genius, Rivalry, and Delusion in the

759
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:10,920
Speaker 1: billion dollar Race to Go Viral.

760
00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:13,280
Speaker 2: Welcome to Fast Politics, Ben.

761
00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:14,759
Speaker 6: Smith, thanks so much for having me, Mala.

762
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:17,440
Speaker 2: We're delighted to have you. You are the editor in.

763
00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:22,399
Speaker 1: Chief of Semophore and also the author of Trump Pick.

764
00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:25,040
Speaker 1: First of all, why did you decide to write this book?

765
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:27,600
Speaker 1: And where were you working at the times? Where were

766
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:28,760
Speaker 1: you when this happened?

767
00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:31,600
Speaker 7: Yeah, you know, when I left BuzzFeed in twenty nineteen

768
00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:33,640
Speaker 7: to go to the New York Times. I mean, there

769
00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:35,560
Speaker 7: was this pandemic, and so we all had a little

770
00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:38,240
Speaker 7: extra time on our hands, and I suppose time to reflect,

771
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:41,040
Speaker 7: and I guess I sort of wound up thinking like, huh,

772
00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:43,880
Speaker 7: what was that? Like what just happened? Like what was

773
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:46,160
Speaker 7: this whole era we all just kind of lived through?

774
00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:48,480
Speaker 7: And yeah, and I guess it sort of had a

775
00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:50,759
Speaker 7: little extra time on my hands because of the pandemic

776
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:53,719
Speaker 7: to report it out, and so spent a lot of

777
00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:56,080
Speaker 7: time digging into kind of the origin. What I see

778
00:39:56,120 --> 00:39:58,440
Speaker 7: is sort of the origin story of this moment.

779
00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:02,160
Speaker 1: So I want to I ask you, first of all,

780
00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:05,080
Speaker 1: I mean, this book is just about to come out

781
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:06,760
Speaker 1: or has just come out, right.

782
00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:09,080
Speaker 7: Yeah, traffic's out. May second, explain.

783
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:12,160
Speaker 1: To our listeners what happened with BuzzFeed and where it

784
00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:15,000
Speaker 1: is now, because that and it just happened and it

785
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:16,200
Speaker 1: seems relevant.

786
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:18,759
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean, it makes me really sad they had

787
00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:21,160
Speaker 7: made the decision to shut down BuzzFeed News, which I

788
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:23,479
Speaker 7: helped start in twenty twelve last week.

789
00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:24,759
Speaker 6: I think, you know, I.

790
00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:27,200
Speaker 7: Would say we did not you know, when I was there,

791
00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:29,719
Speaker 7: we were this venture backed startup that was focused on

792
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:32,560
Speaker 7: growth and not on making money, and by the time

793
00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:36,120
Speaker 7: I left, we were the news department was attempting to

794
00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:37,760
Speaker 7: make money and it was not something I was perfectly

795
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:39,759
Speaker 7: good at. I think, you know, they were making some

796
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:42,080
Speaker 7: progress on building a business, but at the same time,

797
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:45,520
Speaker 7: the fundamental issue is that we'd built this media company

798
00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:48,439
Speaker 7: for social media, for this, for the for the social

799
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:51,400
Speaker 7: media age, which is clearly drawn to some kind of

800
00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:53,319
Speaker 7: an end, and I think, you know, I think our

801
00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:56,000
Speaker 7: fundamental bed at Buzfeed in some ways was that the

802
00:40:56,040 --> 00:40:58,920
Speaker 7: social networks in twenty twelve were what kind of cable

803
00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:01,840
Speaker 7: had been in the eighties, this new form of distribution,

804
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:03,560
Speaker 7: and that there was going to be a new wave

805
00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:06,000
Speaker 7: of content that came with this new form of distribution.

806
00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:08,960
Speaker 7: I think that metaphor didn't kind of quite play out

807
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:09,359
Speaker 7: that way.

808
00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:13,960
Speaker 2: It's pretty interesting. Also, I'm married to a venture.

809
00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:16,360
Speaker 1: Capitalist, so every day he's like, media companies are terrible,

810
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:20,000
Speaker 1: they're terrible businesses, They're terrible, and I'm always like, this

811
00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:23,600
Speaker 1: is what we all do, right, So I'm just curious, like,

812
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:28,840
Speaker 1: was this sort of fantasy that social media would somehow

813
00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:31,200
Speaker 1: make regular media more profitable.

814
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:34,080
Speaker 7: No, I think The idea was that not a fantasy,

815
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:37,400
Speaker 7: that social media would dramatically change society and would be

816
00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:39,879
Speaker 7: where lots of people got their information, and that if

817
00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:42,080
Speaker 7: you built, you know, the way cable had, and that

818
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:45,720
Speaker 7: if you built a news organization, say that was focused

819
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:48,560
Speaker 7: on getting the word at through social media, you could

820
00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:50,959
Speaker 7: reach a big audience. The question of how you would

821
00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:54,080
Speaker 7: make money off that, I think obviously was not something

822
00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:58,000
Speaker 7: we exactly solved. And I think you know, the cable companies,

823
00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:00,480
Speaker 7: as you think about it now, created an ecosystem which

824
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:02,520
Speaker 7: they made money, but you know ESPN makes a lot

825
00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:06,600
Speaker 7: of money too. The social media companies prefer user generated content,

826
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:10,759
Speaker 7: which is free to anything professionally created. And I think

827
00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:13,040
Speaker 7: actually one of their problems was they got if you

828
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:15,160
Speaker 7: look back now at their decline, is they kind of

829
00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:17,960
Speaker 7: got stuck in this world of low quality content while

830
00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:19,680
Speaker 7: we all went off to watch Netflix and HBO.

831
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:24,360
Speaker 1: It's interesting because you see this again and again with

832
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:29,239
Speaker 1: whatever psychodrama Elan is acting out on Twitter, where he's like,

833
00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:31,120
Speaker 1: you know, we can just have people do it. We

834
00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:34,520
Speaker 1: don't need to pay for content. So you do definitely

835
00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:36,920
Speaker 1: see he's sort of doubling down on that.

836
00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:39,160
Speaker 7: I mean that's not just elon. Twitter never wanted to

837
00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:41,040
Speaker 7: pay for content. They flirted with it here and there.

838
00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:43,120
Speaker 7: But you know, the beauty from the Twitter perspective was

839
00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:45,359
Speaker 7: we were all working for them for free. I don't

840
00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:47,600
Speaker 7: think Elan is doing a particularly good job running Twitter,

841
00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:51,080
Speaker 7: and it's obviously pretty off the rails. I do think

842
00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:53,680
Speaker 7: that it was already decline. It like it was losing

843
00:42:53,719 --> 00:42:56,360
Speaker 7: its cultural relevance. The company was losing we had not

844
00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:58,080
Speaker 7: figured out a way to make money even at the

845
00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:01,279
Speaker 7: peak of its cultural relevance. I think has probably kind

846
00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:04,120
Speaker 7: of accelerated its decline and given it a shove. But

847
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:05,839
Speaker 7: you know, the thing with these social networks is they're

848
00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:08,760
Speaker 7: kind of you know, they're social institutions. They're like bars

849
00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:10,719
Speaker 7: or nightclubs. You go to it for a while because

850
00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:12,719
Speaker 7: all your friends are there, and then they all leave

851
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:14,440
Speaker 7: and go to podcasts, and so you go there.

852
00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:14,880
Speaker 6: I don't know.

853
00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:19,040
Speaker 1: It is an interesting problem that's sort of like because

854
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:24,600
Speaker 1: so much, so much of content content distribution, and certainly

855
00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:25,840
Speaker 1: this is not true for the New York Times of

856
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:28,600
Speaker 1: the Washington Post, but it's it's true for pretty much

857
00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:34,960
Speaker 1: everybody else is on these social networks. And also aggregation sides, right.

858
00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:35,600
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's right.

859
00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:37,239
Speaker 7: I mean I think I think you know less than

860
00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:39,560
Speaker 7: it used to be, but certainly, yeah, I think you

861
00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:41,239
Speaker 7: know they were. If you think about it, it's not just

862
00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:43,640
Speaker 7: sort of news, right. If you think about the extent

863
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:46,640
Speaker 7: which the social networks just sort of like splashed through

864
00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:50,279
Speaker 7: societies and family life and everything politics and everything else

865
00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:52,040
Speaker 7: in the twenty tens, it's pretty amazing.

866
00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:54,719
Speaker 1: Because I don't feel this way, but I think some

867
00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:57,960
Speaker 1: people really do. Do you feel that the social media

868
00:43:58,400 --> 00:43:59,880
Speaker 1: was kind of a blight?

869
00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:02,239
Speaker 7: I do not, Like, I mean, I think that there's

870
00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:07,080
Speaker 7: always this impulse to sort of romanticize what came before

871
00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:10,480
Speaker 7: and this golden age that's gone. I mean, I think

872
00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:13,400
Speaker 7: social media did a lot of harm. But also I

873
00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:15,759
Speaker 7: think it's a little hard for people to remember now

874
00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:19,920
Speaker 7: how like sclerotic and corrupt the American media of like

875
00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:22,320
Speaker 7: the Iraq era was. Do we think social media to

876
00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:26,960
Speaker 7: anything quite as bad as cheerleading the Iraq war image

877
00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:29,480
Speaker 7: interesting question, I think if you think about like just

878
00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:30,920
Speaker 7: sort of you know, this is sort of maybe a

879
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:34,520
Speaker 7: dumb thought experiment, but it's interesting to think about what

880
00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:36,719
Speaker 7: it would have been like to try to lead the

881
00:44:36,719 --> 00:44:40,280
Speaker 7: country into war with Iraq with iraqis on the ground

882
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:43,720
Speaker 7: tweeting videos of what they were seeing, when Bush was saying,

883
00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:46,960
Speaker 7: well we believe there's a yellow cake refining site in

884
00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:51,279
Speaker 7: this place, or if the sort of marginal voices who

885
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:53,440
Speaker 7: got who only could get into the conversation by way

886
00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:56,600
Speaker 7: of McClatchy had been making the case in the sort

887
00:44:56,640 --> 00:44:59,680
Speaker 7: of like often bizarrely level playing field of social media

888
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:00,800
Speaker 7: that I think.

889
00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:03,840
Speaker 1: Is ultimately the big question, right, is he is a

890
00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:06,839
Speaker 1: closed system less problematic than an open one?

891
00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:07,160
Speaker 3: Right?

892
00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:10,200
Speaker 7: I think it's all pretty problematic. Well, you know, like

893
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:13,000
Speaker 7: I think people like to imagine that well we can

894
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:15,480
Speaker 7: just solve that. We just he'll just solve this whole thing.

895
00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:20,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a lot of antagonism towards new newness, right

896
00:45:20,239 --> 00:45:24,000
Speaker 1: the printing press, the newspaper. So I do agree that

897
00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:28,680
Speaker 1: it's certainly true. You talk about gawker Nick Detton, is

898
00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:31,359
Speaker 1: I mean I know him a bit. I'm curious, like,

899
00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:34,080
Speaker 1: you know, you see him now and he's just a.

900
00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:36,920
Speaker 2: Completely different person from that experience.

901
00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:41,240
Speaker 1: I am curious what your sort.

902
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:43,440
Speaker 2: Of take on that, if you could talk about that.

903
00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:46,120
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean Nick was one of was this pioneering

904
00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:48,600
Speaker 7: figure of the early Internet who had started something that

905
00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:51,280
Speaker 7: kind of was almost Google Reader, yeah, in the early

906
00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:54,319
Speaker 7: early aughts in San Francisco, and then come to New

907
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:56,400
Speaker 7: York to kind of I mean, he had in some

908
00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:59,000
Speaker 7: ways quite dark vision for the Internet, that it was

909
00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:02,080
Speaker 7: a place where, you know, where both journalists could say

910
00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:05,640
Speaker 7: the things, say the kind of like dark searing truths

911
00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:07,680
Speaker 7: that they would never print, but that they you know,

912
00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:09,480
Speaker 7: would say to each other in bars that that's what

913
00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:12,799
Speaker 7: could be on the Internet, and that people who pretended

914
00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:17,360
Speaker 7: to care about high minded policy or whatever could actually

915
00:46:17,680 --> 00:46:20,480
Speaker 7: see the kind of prurient gossip that's what they really wanted,

916
00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:22,520
Speaker 7: and that the Internet would sort of free the kind

917
00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:25,000
Speaker 7: of you know, more elemental parts of human nature, which

918
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:27,759
Speaker 7: is probably true, and built this media empire kind of

919
00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:30,520
Speaker 7: around that idea, and Gawker was the signature, you know,

920
00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:34,120
Speaker 7: the signature brand of it, you know, with this sensation

921
00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:37,000
Speaker 7: on the New York media scene in two thousand and three,

922
00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:37,680
Speaker 7: four five.

923
00:46:38,040 --> 00:46:39,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, So what do you think now?

924
00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:42,400
Speaker 1: And I mean I also think like Drudge, but I

925
00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:45,879
Speaker 1: want to know more is to sort of aggregate aggregation

926
00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:47,480
Speaker 1: kind of situation.

927
00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:49,560
Speaker 2: But I want to know, what do you think now?

928
00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:51,480
Speaker 2: Is the sort of future of this.

929
00:46:51,719 --> 00:46:53,719
Speaker 1: I mean in a way, I don't know how we

930
00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:55,120
Speaker 1: could go backwards.

931
00:46:55,560 --> 00:46:57,399
Speaker 7: There are weird little ways, and things feel like they

932
00:46:57,560 --> 00:47:00,600
Speaker 7: specifically are going backwards. Like the Drudge Report you mentioned

933
00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:03,440
Speaker 7: is which which had sort of been swamped by the

934
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:06,359
Speaker 7: scale of the of Facebook, is now back to being

935
00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:09,320
Speaker 7: kind of the biggest you know, political refer on the internet.

936
00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:09,839
Speaker 4: Right.

937
00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:12,640
Speaker 1: And I have to say, even as you know, a

938
00:47:12,680 --> 00:47:16,840
Speaker 1: pretty partisan opinion columnist, I have a big place in

939
00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:17,800
Speaker 1: my heart for Drodge.

940
00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:20,760
Speaker 7: So go figure, oh, a genius editor.

941
00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:21,080
Speaker 3: Right.

942
00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:24,480
Speaker 7: And you know, people who you remember as bloggers, Matthew,

943
00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:28,279
Speaker 7: you know, Matt Iglesias Andrew Sullivan are now sending sub

944
00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:30,560
Speaker 7: stacks that are in some ways very much in that tradition.

945
00:47:30,560 --> 00:47:32,720
Speaker 7: But I actually think, in a way like the reason

946
00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:34,880
Speaker 7: that they're working now, and the reason that shows like

947
00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:37,720
Speaker 7: this work is that, you know, back in two thousand

948
00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:40,239
Speaker 7: and three, the challenge that everybody was trying to solve

949
00:47:40,360 --> 00:47:43,200
Speaker 7: is like, wow, like I'm stuck reading two newspapers and

950
00:47:43,239 --> 00:47:46,360
Speaker 7: if only I could have more opinions and more diversity

951
00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:48,840
Speaker 7: of opinions and all sorts of different people talking to

952
00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:50,200
Speaker 7: me all the time, wouldn't that be cool?

953
00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:51,200
Speaker 1: Right?

954
00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:53,040
Speaker 6: Yeah, I found it was fun, and.

955
00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:55,760
Speaker 7: Now I think it's like, oh my god, shut up everything,

956
00:47:55,800 --> 00:47:58,000
Speaker 7: and now it's everything everywhere, all at once, and people,

957
00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:02,080
Speaker 7: regular consumers and you and me probably feel totally overwhelmed

958
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:06,160
Speaker 7: and are looking for voices we can trust and kind

959
00:48:06,160 --> 00:48:09,759
Speaker 7: of get where they're coming from, to give us new

960
00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:12,839
Speaker 7: information and to sort through everything out there and help

961
00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:15,160
Speaker 7: us know what to look at and what to read

962
00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:16,600
Speaker 7: and to some degree what to trust.

963
00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:20,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, certainly that's what it seems like. I want

964
00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:25,040
Speaker 1: to ask you about what you're doing now with some.

965
00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:27,600
Speaker 7: Before so some forurs very much rooted kind of that

966
00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:31,080
Speaker 7: perception of what people of what's driving people crazy about

967
00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:35,080
Speaker 7: the media right now, which is the sense that you're

968
00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:37,359
Speaker 7: just overwhelmed by incoming and that a lot of it

969
00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:39,680
Speaker 7: has motives that you can't totally figure out. And so

970
00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:42,040
Speaker 7: what we're trying to do is say, it's very kind

971
00:48:42,080 --> 00:48:44,320
Speaker 7: of human exercise if like I cover media, you know,

972
00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:46,640
Speaker 7: if I'm writing about media, like I'm going to tell

973
00:48:46,640 --> 00:48:48,560
Speaker 7: you what the scoop is that I got, you know

974
00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:52,040
Speaker 7: that you know, Fast Politics is about to be acquired

975
00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:54,680
Speaker 7: by NBC News or whatever, and then I will tell

976
00:48:54,719 --> 00:48:56,239
Speaker 7: you what I think about it, which is that it's

977
00:48:56,280 --> 00:48:58,959
Speaker 7: obviously a catastrophic mistake for NBC News.

978
00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:01,440
Speaker 6: They'll probably destroy the whole thing. But I'm not like,

979
00:49:01,719 --> 00:49:02,880
Speaker 6: but I'm also going to struck.

980
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:06,160
Speaker 7: We literally structure articles in a way that says this

981
00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:08,840
Speaker 7: first part is true and the second part is my opinion,

982
00:49:08,880 --> 00:49:10,799
Speaker 7: and I could be wrong somebody else who thinks it's

983
00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:13,359
Speaker 7: a great idea, and so and here and by the way,

984
00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:15,520
Speaker 7: and there's this other behavior, and I think it's a

985
00:49:15,520 --> 00:49:17,719
Speaker 7: real opportunity, which is, I don't know, if you find this,

986
00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:20,040
Speaker 7: I'll read an article in a publication I love and

987
00:49:20,120 --> 00:49:22,560
Speaker 7: trust and think, ah, this is probably true. But I'm

988
00:49:22,560 --> 00:49:24,759
Speaker 7: going to go ahead and google the subject and read

989
00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:27,200
Speaker 7: seven more articles on it so I can triangulate what

990
00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:29,560
Speaker 7: really happened. Right, And so we're also trying to do

991
00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:32,840
Speaker 7: a really good job of curating, you know, news and

992
00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:35,680
Speaker 7: journalism around the things we're writing about so that you

993
00:49:35,680 --> 00:49:36,359
Speaker 7: don't have to do that.

994
00:49:36,560 --> 00:49:38,600
Speaker 1: I mean, I think about that all the time, right, Like,

995
00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:42,000
Speaker 1: you know, I'm on the opinion side. But my problem

996
00:49:42,040 --> 00:49:44,400
Speaker 1: is not when I read opinion columns. My problem is

997
00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:47,160
Speaker 1: when I read straight news. I'm like, what does this

998
00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:50,520
Speaker 1: person really think? And what are they leaving out and

999
00:49:50,560 --> 00:49:52,319
Speaker 1: what are they putting in that might not even be

1000
00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:55,320
Speaker 1: germane and just because it's what they're interested in.

1001
00:49:55,640 --> 00:49:57,759
Speaker 7: And you're a sophisticated reader. But I think a lot

1002
00:49:57,840 --> 00:50:00,840
Speaker 7: of readers are pretty sophisticated and do read an article

1003
00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:04,640
Speaker 7: in a newspaper and think, huh, like this reporter obviously

1004
00:50:04,719 --> 00:50:06,560
Speaker 7: knows a lot. They probably have an opinion. I don't

1005
00:50:06,600 --> 00:50:07,879
Speaker 7: know what it is, but I can kind of guess

1006
00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:09,840
Speaker 7: what it is based on which quote they chose to

1007
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:12,680
Speaker 7: use and which fact. And I kind of rather they

1008
00:50:12,719 --> 00:50:14,480
Speaker 7: didn't play that game and just told me so.

1009
00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:17,440
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm not that sophisticated reader. I actually

1010
00:50:17,480 --> 00:50:21,160
Speaker 1: feel like I'm very naive. But one of the issues

1011
00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:24,279
Speaker 1: I always feel because I'm on the opinion side, it's

1012
00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:25,279
Speaker 1: over for me, right.

1013
00:50:25,320 --> 00:50:28,080
Speaker 2: I can't write straight news, everyone would think go as.

1014
00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:30,840
Speaker 1: Bias, And you know, I can interview, but it really

1015
00:50:30,880 --> 00:50:32,160
Speaker 1: has to be in that.

1016
00:50:32,120 --> 00:50:34,960
Speaker 2: Sort of opinion sphere, which is fine.

1017
00:50:35,160 --> 00:50:40,080
Speaker 1: But when you have your reporters writing these opinion parts,

1018
00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:42,600
Speaker 1: doesn't that mean that they kind of can't go back

1019
00:50:42,640 --> 00:50:43,839
Speaker 1: to straight news after that?

1020
00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:46,160
Speaker 7: Well, I mean, I think you know, there are a

1021
00:50:46,239 --> 00:50:48,480
Speaker 7: lot of different flavors of journalism. The kind of stuff

1022
00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:51,240
Speaker 7: we're doing is really a lot of it is beat reporting,

1023
00:50:51,239 --> 00:50:54,960
Speaker 7: where I'm not asking them to say my opinion is

1024
00:50:55,000 --> 00:50:57,960
Speaker 7: that these people are discussing monsters, right, I'm asked them

1025
00:50:57,960 --> 00:51:01,120
Speaker 7: to say my analysis is that the collapse of SVB

1026
00:51:01,360 --> 00:51:03,520
Speaker 7: means that this other bank is the next one to go.

1027
00:51:04,320 --> 00:51:08,160
Speaker 7: It's more more and I would say more analytical, although

1028
00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:10,719
Speaker 7: I think that these sort of boundaries between analysis and

1029
00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:12,760
Speaker 7: opinion are pretty pretty porous.

1030
00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:17,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I feel like analysis is like just

1031
00:51:17,200 --> 00:51:21,880
Speaker 1: a way to trick straight journalists into giving their opinion

1032
00:51:22,280 --> 00:51:23,680
Speaker 1: and then getting in trouble.

1033
00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:25,640
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, honestly, I guess I think that.

1034
00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:28,440
Speaker 7: To me, what's really important is that supporters are trying

1035
00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:30,240
Speaker 7: to figure out what's going on, and it really open

1036
00:51:30,280 --> 00:51:32,799
Speaker 7: to the possibility that they're wrong, Like, and I mean

1037
00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:35,279
Speaker 7: not on the reporting on the facts, but if you're

1038
00:51:35,320 --> 00:51:38,520
Speaker 7: going to have a provocative piece of analysis, it might

1039
00:51:38,560 --> 00:51:39,000
Speaker 7: be wrong.

1040
00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:40,520
Speaker 6: If there's no way it.

1041
00:51:40,440 --> 00:51:43,480
Speaker 7: Could be wrong, it's not interesting, it's been all and

1042
00:51:43,480 --> 00:51:45,480
Speaker 7: people and I just I want people who are open

1043
00:51:45,520 --> 00:51:47,400
Speaker 7: to that possibility, and I do think that limits my

1044
00:51:47,480 --> 00:51:48,080
Speaker 7: pool a bit.

1045
00:51:48,280 --> 00:51:52,640
Speaker 1: Can you sort of explain where you sort of see

1046
00:51:53,360 --> 00:51:54,280
Speaker 1: sebafore going.

1047
00:51:54,360 --> 00:51:56,279
Speaker 7: Now, Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, we feel

1048
00:51:56,280 --> 00:51:59,640
Speaker 7: pretty good about how people, you know, the reception we've had,

1049
00:51:59,680 --> 00:52:01,520
Speaker 7: and I think we're going to I think in our

1050
00:52:01,880 --> 00:52:03,840
Speaker 7: sort of like long term vision of the place, we

1051
00:52:03,880 --> 00:52:08,120
Speaker 7: do really think these are global questions and that increasingly

1052
00:52:08,640 --> 00:52:11,160
Speaker 7: global people are going to want to get outside a

1053
00:52:11,239 --> 00:52:14,839
Speaker 7: kind of parochial news environment and understand the relationship between

1054
00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:15,680
Speaker 7: the US and China and.

1055
00:52:15,640 --> 00:52:16,239
Speaker 6: Things like that.

1056
00:52:16,960 --> 00:52:19,719
Speaker 7: But we also justin and I like, have not been

1057
00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:21,640
Speaker 7: through this a few times and are being very careful

1058
00:52:21,719 --> 00:52:23,520
Speaker 7: not to bite off more than we can chew. And

1059
00:52:23,560 --> 00:52:25,279
Speaker 7: so we've launched in two places in the US and

1060
00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:28,040
Speaker 7: its Sub Saharan Africa, and I think in the medium term,

1061
00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:30,200
Speaker 7: I think there's a lot of opportunity elsewhere, but are

1062
00:52:30,200 --> 00:52:32,560
Speaker 7: also trying to really just try to get good at

1063
00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:33,200
Speaker 7: what we're doing.

1064
00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:34,680
Speaker 2: Right now Africa.

1065
00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:36,240
Speaker 1: It reminds me that there are a lot of places

1066
00:52:36,280 --> 00:52:40,000
Speaker 1: in America that have these kind of news deserts, and

1067
00:52:40,040 --> 00:52:42,360
Speaker 1: you see it more and more, and you see, for example,

1068
00:52:42,480 --> 00:52:45,760
Speaker 1: this child labor story, which I'm obsessed with, is happening

1069
00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:47,919
Speaker 1: all over the country, but it's happening at the state

1070
00:52:47,920 --> 00:52:51,360
Speaker 1: house level, and it's happening very quietly, and so because

1071
00:52:51,760 --> 00:52:54,480
Speaker 1: we don't have the same level of local coverage that

1072
00:52:54,520 --> 00:52:58,359
Speaker 1: we used to, things are happening and much faster. And

1073
00:52:58,560 --> 00:53:01,399
Speaker 1: this is my central anxiety in life, is that I'm

1074
00:53:01,480 --> 00:53:03,880
Speaker 1: just missing something that's right under my notes that like

1075
00:53:04,160 --> 00:53:07,760
Speaker 1: the George Santos story where you know, the American people

1076
00:53:08,040 --> 00:53:11,719
Speaker 1: in Nassau along Island elect as serial fabulous and know

1077
00:53:11,800 --> 00:53:12,480
Speaker 1: what notices.

1078
00:53:12,640 --> 00:53:14,759
Speaker 2: Do you have that anxiety or is it just me?

1079
00:53:15,160 --> 00:53:16,800
Speaker 7: Yeah, oh yeah, And I think, you know, it's interesting

1080
00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:21,319
Speaker 7: like people often say journalism is declining, news is declining.

1081
00:53:21,800 --> 00:53:24,120
Speaker 7: You know, look at all these jobs being destroyed in journalism,

1082
00:53:24,160 --> 00:53:26,440
Speaker 7: and it's not. That's actually not broadly true. Like in

1083
00:53:26,480 --> 00:53:30,200
Speaker 7: lots of spaces, podcastings booming, you know, or wasn't till recently.

1084
00:53:30,560 --> 00:53:33,759
Speaker 7: I think Washington reporting, financial reporting, tech reporting are all

1085
00:53:33,800 --> 00:53:39,279
Speaker 7: in great places. Local journalism is a catastrophic situation and

1086
00:53:39,480 --> 00:53:44,000
Speaker 7: a very specific problem, which is that in the United States, specifically,

1087
00:53:44,200 --> 00:53:46,319
Speaker 7: the sort of way the country was structured, the way

1088
00:53:46,320 --> 00:53:49,760
Speaker 7: the business is structure. These metro newspapers in every small, medium,

1089
00:53:49,840 --> 00:53:53,480
Speaker 7: large city, we're just incredible businesses that could hire hundreds

1090
00:53:53,480 --> 00:53:56,680
Speaker 7: of journalists. The Internet just pulled the rug out of that.

1091
00:53:56,760 --> 00:53:58,799
Speaker 7: I mean, the basic thing was if you wanted to

1092
00:53:58,840 --> 00:54:01,520
Speaker 7: sell a refrigerator and Clearland, the only way to reach

1093
00:54:01,600 --> 00:54:04,080
Speaker 7: refrigerator writers in Cleveland was the Cleveland Plain Dealer, and

1094
00:54:04,120 --> 00:54:06,279
Speaker 7: they could just make incredible amounts of money and employ

1095
00:54:06,400 --> 00:54:08,920
Speaker 7: lots of journalists. It's very hard to see a path

1096
00:54:08,960 --> 00:54:11,160
Speaker 7: back to anything like that. And there are these very

1097
00:54:11,239 --> 00:54:15,440
Speaker 7: I think good projects to rebuild small local things, local

1098
00:54:15,520 --> 00:54:18,960
Speaker 7: nonprofit things, but I think people like don't quite understand

1099
00:54:19,040 --> 00:54:22,120
Speaker 7: the scale of how incredible a business it was, and

1100
00:54:22,160 --> 00:54:25,080
Speaker 7: how many people it employed, and what kind of major,

1101
00:54:25,200 --> 00:54:28,359
Speaker 7: major part of civic life. These great newspapers with these

1102
00:54:28,440 --> 00:54:31,840
Speaker 7: huge buildings downtown play and I think, I mean, I

1103
00:54:31,840 --> 00:54:34,120
Speaker 7: feel nostalgia for that, but I also just do not

1104
00:54:34,200 --> 00:54:35,080
Speaker 7: see a path back.

1105
00:54:35,480 --> 00:54:38,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel nostalgia for that too. I mean the

1106
00:54:38,440 --> 00:54:41,120
Speaker 1: anxiety I have now we're just doing therapy for me,

1107
00:54:41,239 --> 00:54:44,479
Speaker 1: but it's very useful for me, so listeners aren't too bored.

1108
00:54:44,480 --> 00:54:48,640
Speaker 1: But the anxiety that I have about our current situation

1109
00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:52,279
Speaker 1: is like I came from magazines in the nineties and

1110
00:54:52,480 --> 00:54:57,719
Speaker 1: I lived through the just incredible, I mean spectacular meltdown

1111
00:54:58,000 --> 00:55:00,600
Speaker 1: of you know, these places that I thought of is

1112
00:55:00,719 --> 00:55:02,600
Speaker 1: like great institutions that.

1113
00:55:02,520 --> 00:55:05,200
Speaker 2: Are now you know, tiny fragments.

1114
00:55:05,440 --> 00:55:07,919
Speaker 1: So it does scare me, but I also do think

1115
00:55:08,000 --> 00:55:10,560
Speaker 1: I mean, are you a person who thinks AI is

1116
00:55:10,640 --> 00:55:13,440
Speaker 1: going to just completely put us all out of business?

1117
00:55:14,040 --> 00:55:17,680
Speaker 7: No, the things that are most interesting about journalism, which

1118
00:55:17,719 --> 00:55:22,440
Speaker 7: are new and gathering new information, you know, from sources

1119
00:55:23,160 --> 00:55:25,920
Speaker 7: and putting it in a kind of in a thoughtful context,

1120
00:55:26,280 --> 00:55:28,480
Speaker 7: are sort of the hardest things for these large language

1121
00:55:28,480 --> 00:55:31,520
Speaker 7: models to do. I think things like copy editing, it

1122
00:55:31,520 --> 00:55:33,000
Speaker 7: can be a very useful tool, But I don't think

1123
00:55:33,000 --> 00:55:35,360
Speaker 7: anybody looks at grammar lay, which is a great service,

1124
00:55:35,840 --> 00:55:37,560
Speaker 7: and says this is going to destroy journalism.

1125
00:55:37,719 --> 00:55:40,680
Speaker 2: Oh, my husband's obsessed with grammarly.

1126
00:55:41,200 --> 00:55:41,480
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1127
00:55:41,520 --> 00:55:43,239
Speaker 7: I mean, I mean, I'm not sure if that is

1128
00:55:43,280 --> 00:55:45,640
Speaker 7: technically artificial intelligence, but there'll be AI tools that do

1129
00:55:45,680 --> 00:55:47,880
Speaker 7: that better and better. But I don't think having fewer

1130
00:55:47,920 --> 00:55:50,360
Speaker 7: typos is going to destroy I mean maybe, I don't know,

1131
00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:53,520
Speaker 7: might even improve things, but their production roles that I

1132
00:55:53,520 --> 00:55:56,239
Speaker 7: think that'll probably affect. And then on the other end,

1133
00:55:56,239 --> 00:55:58,400
Speaker 7: I think there are huge opportunities. We've been using these

1134
00:55:58,440 --> 00:56:03,200
Speaker 7: AI tools for a nation and videos, which is prohibitively

1135
00:56:03,239 --> 00:56:05,680
Speaker 7: expensive for news organization. To do, you know, three four

1136
00:56:05,719 --> 00:56:08,160
Speaker 7: or five thousand dollars a minute if you're if you're trying,

1137
00:56:08,239 --> 00:56:10,279
Speaker 7: and so no one does it. And now we're working

1138
00:56:10,280 --> 00:56:11,880
Speaker 7: with this artist in Australia to do it in a

1139
00:56:11,880 --> 00:56:13,840
Speaker 7: way that I think makes the stuff better and is

1140
00:56:13,840 --> 00:56:14,760
Speaker 7: something we can afford.

1141
00:56:14,800 --> 00:56:17,160
Speaker 6: And so in sort of.

1142
00:56:17,080 --> 00:56:20,239
Speaker 7: The old fashioned internet ways, democratizing certain tools, and so,

1143
00:56:20,560 --> 00:56:22,359
Speaker 7: I mean, you know, I could I could be wrong.

1144
00:56:22,400 --> 00:56:25,399
Speaker 7: I've obviously been wrong before in this book, largely about that.

1145
00:56:25,480 --> 00:56:28,520
Speaker 7: But I think there's a lot of opportunity and I

1146
00:56:28,520 --> 00:56:32,120
Speaker 7: don't really see your job as Molly is particularly in danger.

1147
00:56:32,560 --> 00:56:36,040
Speaker 2: We will see hopefully you're right. Thank you, Ben Smith.

1148
00:56:36,280 --> 00:56:42,719
Speaker 7: Assuming this is Molly the moment full Jesse.

1149
00:56:42,680 --> 00:56:46,960
Speaker 8: Cannon Mai Jung fasts. So this Supreme Court, one might

1150
00:56:47,040 --> 00:56:50,600
Speaker 8: describe them as glacial moving. As old as they are.

1151
00:56:50,680 --> 00:56:52,080
Speaker 2: They're slow.

1152
00:56:52,440 --> 00:56:58,880
Speaker 1: Look, the truth is that if you are so busy,

1153
00:56:59,520 --> 00:57:05,000
Speaker 1: like my my friend and yours, Justice Samuel Alito, with

1154
00:57:05,520 --> 00:57:08,600
Speaker 1: finding the leaker who you're sure you know and it's

1155
00:57:08,680 --> 00:57:13,680
Speaker 1: certainly not you, and then you, like the one the

1156
00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:20,640
Speaker 1: only Justice Clarence Thomas, are so busy vacationing with billionaires,

1157
00:57:20,680 --> 00:57:23,200
Speaker 1: it's very hard to get the job done, but they're

1158
00:57:23,240 --> 00:57:24,040
Speaker 1: moving slowly.

1159
00:57:24,240 --> 00:57:29,040
Speaker 2: Honestly, when I saw this article, I thought, good, I'm

1160
00:57:29,240 --> 00:57:30,480
Speaker 2: slowing even more.

1161
00:57:31,680 --> 00:57:32,120
Speaker 3: Good point.

1162
00:57:32,120 --> 00:57:34,960
Speaker 8: Should we really be complaining that they've only done fifteen

1163
00:57:35,040 --> 00:57:37,720
Speaker 8: percent of cases and seventy five percent of the cases

1164
00:57:37,760 --> 00:57:38,720
Speaker 8: are still undecided.

1165
00:57:39,040 --> 00:57:43,040
Speaker 1: Take a load off, Get on Harlan Crowe's jet, have

1166
00:57:43,120 --> 00:57:43,880
Speaker 1: a little vak.

1167
00:57:44,320 --> 00:57:47,960
Speaker 2: Tom Thomas, we don't need you right now. You may

1168
00:57:48,000 --> 00:57:49,000
Speaker 2: be our moment.

1169
00:57:48,760 --> 00:57:51,440
Speaker 1: Of fuck Gray, but we suggest you take a vacation.

1170
00:57:52,560 --> 00:57:55,880
Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in

1171
00:57:55,920 --> 00:57:59,160
Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday and Friday to hear the best minds

1172
00:57:59,160 --> 00:58:02,400
Speaker 1: in politics make sense of all this chaos. If you

1173
00:58:02,520 --> 00:58:05,200
Speaker 1: enjoyed what you've heard, please send it to a friend

1174
00:58:05,240 --> 00:58:08,800
Speaker 1: and keep the conversation going. And again, thanks for listening.