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Enjoy the episode Gamsite Media. On the night 11 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:51,000 Speaker 2: of the shooting in the West End March sixteenth, two thousand, 12 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:54,680 Speaker 2: Atlanta Police detective Brett Zimbrick was working in his cubicle. 13 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:58,000 Speaker 2: It was a Thursday, and Brett's shift ran from three 14 00:00:58,040 --> 00:00:59,640 Speaker 2: pm to eleven pm. 15 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:03,880 Speaker 3: Thursday nights were Fridays for most of us. We had 16 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:06,880 Speaker 3: either Friday and Saturday off or at Sunday and Monday off, 17 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:08,840 Speaker 3: So Thursday night was a Friday night for me. 18 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:11,920 Speaker 4: So that you're kind of like winding down, getting ready 19 00:01:11,959 --> 00:01:12,880 Speaker 4: for the weekend, right. 20 00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:15,280 Speaker 3: And a weekly tradition is to go to the local 21 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 3: drinking establishment and all the cops that are off on 22 00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:21,240 Speaker 3: Friday would show up and you know, have a beer 23 00:01:21,319 --> 00:01:26,640 Speaker 3: or two and start the weekend that way. 24 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:31,959 Speaker 2: Brett was about to head out and get a beer 25 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:34,640 Speaker 2: with his buddies when one of the Fulton County Sheriff's 26 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:38,039 Speaker 2: deputies on duty in the West End, Algernon English, made 27 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 2: a distress call on his radio. He and his partner 28 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 2: and Rickie Kinchin were taking fire and Kenchin was down. 29 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 2: English said he and Kinchin were at an address on 30 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 2: Oak Street. Brett grabbed his keys and rushed toward the 31 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:11,519 Speaker 2: West End because it was a cop who had been shot. 32 00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 2: He told me everyone was responding, bolting from their desks 33 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:18,519 Speaker 2: for their cars. Brent knew that when he arrived he 34 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:21,120 Speaker 2: would be in charge of the crime scene. On the 35 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:24,239 Speaker 2: drive across the city, he was listening to his police radio. 36 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 3: It's chaotic. 37 00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:29,480 Speaker 5: It's a zoo for real. 38 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 3: I mean, you have no idea that they had no 39 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:35,520 Speaker 3: idea where the shooter was, or if it was somebody 40 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:38,400 Speaker 3: that was getting high ground on them or whatever. But 41 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:42,320 Speaker 3: their priority at that point was to get medical assistance 42 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:44,040 Speaker 3: to the officers that were down. 43 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:47,360 Speaker 4: And having worked so many homicides by that point, is 44 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 4: this a heightened level of emotion and chaos. 45 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:54,679 Speaker 3: Because it's an officer who was involved, right, Because back 46 00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:57,640 Speaker 3: in two thousand, unlike today, you know, it was a 47 00:02:57,639 --> 00:03:00,680 Speaker 3: big deal to shoot the cops. Now not so much, 48 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:03,680 Speaker 3: but back then it was a big deal. If the 49 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:05,919 Speaker 3: cops were shot, then this was somebody that was really 50 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:11,120 Speaker 3: desperate or you know, angry, whatever, but there was, you know, 51 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 3: some passion behind the event of shooting law enforcement. 52 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:21,079 Speaker 2: It's still a big deal to shoot a police officer. 53 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:24,360 Speaker 2: But I think I get what Brett is saying. The 54 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 2: uprisings of the past few years have brought the police 55 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:30,240 Speaker 2: as an institution. The police has this unimpeachable arm of 56 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:33,919 Speaker 2: law and order down to a much more human size. 57 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:36,280 Speaker 2: Respect for the position isn't what it used to be, 58 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 2: and that has to sting. By the time Brett arrived 59 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:43,040 Speaker 2: at the scene in the West End, the two deputies 60 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:46,240 Speaker 2: who were shot, English and Kenchin, they were already in 61 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:48,600 Speaker 2: ambulances on their way to the hospital. 62 00:03:55,920 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 5: Brett was a methodical. 63 00:03:57,040 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 2: Cop, not the running gun type, the trim white guy 64 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 2: in his late thirties who prided himself on being smarter 65 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 2: than the next guy. His eyes were immediately drawn to 66 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:09,240 Speaker 2: all the evidence the police would need to collect and organize. 67 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:12,040 Speaker 2: Cops fanned out in the neighborhood to canvas for even 68 00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 2: more evidence and knock on doors asking if anyone had 69 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 2: seen or. 70 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:16,560 Speaker 5: Heard what happened. 71 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:20,120 Speaker 2: But most of the Muslims who lived nearby, the members 72 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:22,240 Speaker 2: of the mass died, they weren't talking. 73 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:26,920 Speaker 3: There wasn't a whole lot of onlookers for this event, 74 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 3: which was rare. 75 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 4: Did the lack of onlookers mean anything to. 76 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:35,440 Speaker 3: You, Well, it wasn't a shock. I don't think it 77 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:38,760 Speaker 3: was the West End. It was the corner store there 78 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 3: at West End Place. So it was one of those 79 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 3: neighborhoods where there wasn't a whole lot of late night 80 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:48,480 Speaker 3: you know, shenanigans. 81 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:48,920 Speaker 5: I see. 82 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:51,600 Speaker 4: So it's kind of representative of the folks there are 83 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:53,800 Speaker 4: not really out in the street at. 84 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:57,280 Speaker 3: That hour, right, Yeah, the West End is kind of 85 00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:02,160 Speaker 3: you know, controlled, Right, It was a different neighborhood, right. 86 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:05,839 Speaker 2: Brett focused on the physical evidence at the scene, dozens 87 00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:08,320 Speaker 2: of shell casings and bullets lit up by the street 88 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:11,839 Speaker 2: lights and lying in the grass. There was a small 89 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:16,600 Speaker 2: stack of paper, four pages or so stapled together. Only 90 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:19,960 Speaker 2: the top sheet was initially visible white paper with black 91 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:24,040 Speaker 2: type and an image of a sheriff's batch. The page 92 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 2: was covered with splotches of blood, and there was a 93 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:30,920 Speaker 2: bullet hole right through the center. It was a warrant, 94 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:35,760 Speaker 2: please arrest this subject. The first paragraph said the deputies 95 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:43,279 Speaker 2: had been out looking for someone. There is perhaps no 96 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 2: greater emblem of the promise of the American criminal legal 97 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 2: system than the warrant. A document that grants officers of 98 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:52,839 Speaker 2: the law the power to jail people, to search them, 99 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:56,160 Speaker 2: to take their property after a judge approves. That's the 100 00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:59,119 Speaker 2: bedrock of our legal system. What our constitution and court's 101 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:04,360 Speaker 2: promise police power with constraint, with judicial oversight and the 102 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:08,159 Speaker 2: interest of public safety. Cops aren't supposed to just break 103 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 2: down doors, or search cars, or detain people whenever they please. 104 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:14,880 Speaker 2: This is an idea that goes back to the Bill 105 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:21,359 Speaker 2: of Rights. It's also an idea that hasn't worked in 106 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:24,800 Speaker 2: everyone's favor. And that night in the West End, someone 107 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:28,480 Speaker 2: deemed it all worthy of destruction. Maybe they thought they 108 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:31,640 Speaker 2: were exempt, or that police and the legal system were 109 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 2: only out to get them. In any case, they shot 110 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:37,400 Speaker 2: it all up. All of the criminal procedure wrapped up 111 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:40,800 Speaker 2: in that document, bloodied it. If this were a piece 112 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:43,719 Speaker 2: of fiction. Maybe you'd find the symbolism too heavy handed, 113 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:47,839 Speaker 2: too literal, maybe even melodramatic, like something out of an 114 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:51,599 Speaker 2: old Western. A warrant shot through the center, along with 115 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:55,080 Speaker 2: the deputies who carried it. But this is in fact 116 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:58,280 Speaker 2: what happened. Someone shot up the system and then got 117 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:06,840 Speaker 2: the hell out of dodge. Printed on that bloody to 118 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:12,160 Speaker 2: rest warrant was the name Jamil Abdellah Alamin. The warrant 119 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:16,520 Speaker 2: was for man Jamil. There was a physical description black 120 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 2: mail six feet five inches tall, one hundred and eighty 121 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:23,360 Speaker 2: seven pounds, with gray eyes and brown hair, and a 122 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 2: note of caution the subject could be armed. From Campside Media, 123 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 2: Tenderfoot TV, and iHeart podcasts, This is Radical, I'm Mosty's Secret, 124 00:07:46,520 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 2: episode two, Heroes and Villains. About a year before the shootout, 125 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:14,080 Speaker 2: AmAm Jamil was driving a green Ford Explorer in Cobb County, 126 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:18,040 Speaker 2: a suburban county just north of Atlanta. The suv had 127 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 2: a dealer license played on it, and a local police 128 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:23,960 Speaker 2: officer spotted the vehicle, turned on his patrol lights and 129 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 2: pulled a Mamjamil over. The officer said in court that 130 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:33,120 Speaker 2: when he asked for license and registration, a Maam Jamil's 131 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:37,400 Speaker 2: hands were shaking. The paperwork didn't check out. The explorer 132 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:41,200 Speaker 2: had been reported stolen, so the officer took him to jail, 133 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:43,440 Speaker 2: where he stayed a few hours until he posted bond. 134 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 2: I should note here that years later the traffic stop 135 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:51,320 Speaker 2: was ruled unconstitutional. There was no probable cause for the stop, 136 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:54,439 Speaker 2: and a Mam Demial was never convicted of anything related 137 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 2: to it. 138 00:08:57,480 --> 00:08:57,960 Speaker 5: Anyway. 139 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:01,120 Speaker 2: In January of two thousand, he had a court dat 140 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:03,880 Speaker 2: in the case, but there was an ice storm and 141 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 2: the judge delayed the proceedings by two hours. A Mam 142 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 2: Jamial never showed up, and the judge issued a warrant 143 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 2: for his arrest. That was the warrant that the deputies 144 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:16,040 Speaker 2: had with them on the night of the shootout. It 145 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:19,920 Speaker 2: was why they were in the West End. When Atlanta 146 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:23,480 Speaker 2: Police Detective Brett Ziembrick saw that warrant, now bloodied and 147 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:26,240 Speaker 2: with a boat hole in it, he logically concluded that 148 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:31,000 Speaker 2: a Ma'am Jamil was his main suspect. After Brett got 149 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:34,079 Speaker 2: up the next morning, he learned that Deputy Algernon English 150 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:37,760 Speaker 2: was awake and ready to talk. English and Deputy Ricky 151 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 2: Kinchin had both been through surgery. Kenchin was hit at 152 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:45,520 Speaker 2: least six times, English at least three times. Brett went 153 00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:49,199 Speaker 2: to English's room at the hospital to interview him. 154 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:52,640 Speaker 3: He's remarkably alert. 155 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:54,440 Speaker 5: I was shocked that he was. 156 00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:01,160 Speaker 3: I mean, not upbeat, but his attitude was, you know, 157 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:03,679 Speaker 3: me and my partner got shot. We got to get 158 00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:05,680 Speaker 3: the bad guy. I need to tell you my side 159 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:10,360 Speaker 3: of the story. You know, he wasn't like TV guy 160 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 3: and lighten in the hospital with you know, hoses coming 161 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:15,160 Speaker 3: out of his nose and mouth and all that stuff. 162 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:20,160 Speaker 3: He was, you know, surprisingly alert and upbeat for what 163 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 3: had happened to him. 164 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:26,520 Speaker 2: Zimbert began to interview English on March sixteenth, two thousand. 165 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:30,199 Speaker 2: English's workday began at around two thirty in the afternoon. 166 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:33,439 Speaker 2: He went to the Sheriff's office in downtown Atlanta for 167 00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:35,760 Speaker 2: a roll call, where he was assigned to ride with 168 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 2: Deputy Kenchin. They were given fifteen warrants to execute for 169 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:42,560 Speaker 2: their shift that ended at midnight, and they'd consider themselves 170 00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:44,880 Speaker 2: lucky if they were able to find even one person 171 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:47,559 Speaker 2: and arrest them. That was the nature of the work. 172 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:51,960 Speaker 2: Kenchin and English had worked together before. They made something 173 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:55,559 Speaker 2: of a balanced pair Kenchin, a thirty five year old 174 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:58,040 Speaker 2: black deputy with a thin mustache who was known for 175 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:00,520 Speaker 2: his charm. He was the more senior of the two 176 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:04,720 Speaker 2: had worked in the department for at least seven years. English, 177 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:07,439 Speaker 2: who was also black, had been there for just three 178 00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:11,360 Speaker 2: years before that, he was in the Marine Corps. After 179 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:13,680 Speaker 2: Kinchin and English had been out for about three hours, 180 00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:16,600 Speaker 2: they ate dinner at a wingspot in Atlanta called JR. 181 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:17,600 Speaker 5: Crickets. 182 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:20,720 Speaker 2: After the meal, Kinchin called his wife to check in 183 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:23,720 Speaker 2: and the two deputies drove their marked carr a Crown 184 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:25,319 Speaker 2: Victoria to the West End. 185 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:32,880 Speaker 6: So he had them eating lunch. We approached the location 186 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:34,200 Speaker 6: from Oak Street. 187 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:36,520 Speaker 2: This is a recording of English while he was still 188 00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:39,840 Speaker 2: in the hospital. English said that he and Kenchin pulled 189 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 2: up in front of the address that was on the warrant, 190 00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:44,040 Speaker 2: the corner store in the West End run by a 191 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 2: man Jamil. 192 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:48,200 Speaker 6: We noticed that there was no life running in the store. 193 00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:50,760 Speaker 6: In the back on the deck, there was no life 194 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:52,040 Speaker 6: indicating someone was there. 195 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:55,760 Speaker 2: English and Kensin drove off. Kenchin was behind the wheel, 196 00:11:56,480 --> 00:11:59,160 Speaker 2: and then in the rear view mirror he saw black 197 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:02,480 Speaker 2: Mercedes pull up next to the store. A man stepped 198 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:05,040 Speaker 2: out of the vehicle and onto the sidewalk. He was 199 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 2: wearing a trench coat and a skull cap of some kind, 200 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:09,800 Speaker 2: and he looked like he was taller than six feet, 201 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:11,599 Speaker 2: which fit the description. 202 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:12,240 Speaker 3: On the warrant. 203 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:16,960 Speaker 2: Kenchin turned their car around and drove back. The deputies 204 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:19,320 Speaker 2: pulled up in front of the other car, so the 205 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:22,480 Speaker 2: Sheriff's crowned Vic and the Mercedes were facing each other, 206 00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:28,679 Speaker 2: their headlights on. English told Kenchin, Okay. 207 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:29,560 Speaker 5: We're going to count to three. 208 00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 2: They opened their doors and got out, and I. 209 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:38,720 Speaker 6: Needed to notice the gentlemen. I couldn't see his right hand, 210 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 6: so I said, sir, I need to see. 211 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:44,800 Speaker 2: Your right hand, Kenchin. At the driver's side of the 212 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:47,680 Speaker 2: crown Vic. He was sort of diagonal to the man, 213 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:50,480 Speaker 2: but English was facing him straight on. 214 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:54,120 Speaker 6: My mom always told me look a man in his eye, 215 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:55,679 Speaker 6: always looking man. 216 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:58,000 Speaker 5: Is so. 217 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:01,959 Speaker 6: Because I was looking at him in his eyes and 218 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:03,880 Speaker 6: I remember him gray eyes, so I couldn't man, I 219 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:06,719 Speaker 6: remember that face, that face, that cold face, so I 220 00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:11,600 Speaker 6: couldn't forget that. That's when he frowned at me and 221 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:17,000 Speaker 6: he noted me with yeah him all and me aggressive 222 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:21,520 Speaker 6: metal like yeah, and introduced the black O fault rifle 223 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:23,720 Speaker 6: and start firing at me. 224 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:27,320 Speaker 2: The first round hit English in the hip nearest holster. 225 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:29,360 Speaker 2: It's stung and burned. 226 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:33,720 Speaker 6: I realized, Oh, this is this real life. It's not 227 00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:34,559 Speaker 6: really a dream. 228 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:35,720 Speaker 7: It's happened. 229 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:37,880 Speaker 6: It was happening so fast because he didn't give him 230 00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:39,520 Speaker 6: a chance of doing anything else. 231 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 2: At some point, the pepper spray cannisterer on English's hip 232 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:45,800 Speaker 2: had been hit and the chemical was in his eyes. 233 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:50,520 Speaker 2: He drew his pistol, a forty caliber glock, and fired back. 234 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:52,079 Speaker 5: He said he hit the man. 235 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:56,560 Speaker 2: In these moments, the way English tells it, the situation 236 00:13:56,679 --> 00:13:59,239 Speaker 2: brought him right back to was training in the Marine Corps. 237 00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:02,839 Speaker 2: He he determined he was facing a terrorist attack because 238 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:05,760 Speaker 2: terrorists are trained to kill, and they know that cops 239 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:08,839 Speaker 2: wear bulletproof vests, so they shoot at the waist and 240 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:14,199 Speaker 2: the hips of their targets. English also figured it was 241 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:17,800 Speaker 2: an ambush and he was outgunned, facing a rifle with 242 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:21,120 Speaker 2: a pistol. He was inside what he was trained to 243 00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:24,360 Speaker 2: call the kill zone. The only way to survive was 244 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:26,800 Speaker 2: to get out of there, and to do that he 245 00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:29,720 Speaker 2: had to run through it. So he dashed between the 246 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 2: cars and I. 247 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:34,240 Speaker 6: Was running and I was screaming and yelling and firing 248 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:37,640 Speaker 6: back at him and trying to get out of the 249 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 6: kill zone. 250 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:42,480 Speaker 2: He ended up across the street, lying in the grass 251 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:45,120 Speaker 2: next to the mast shit. He could feel that he'd 252 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:46,280 Speaker 2: been shot in the arm too. 253 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 5: English called out for Kenchin. 254 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:52,720 Speaker 2: Then he heard more assault rifle fire and shots from 255 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:56,360 Speaker 2: a smaller gun. When it stopped, English thought the man 256 00:14:56,480 --> 00:14:59,480 Speaker 2: was walking towards him, coming over to finish him off. 257 00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 6: I was screaming, yelling, please don't shoot me, no more. 258 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:05,040 Speaker 6: Don't shoot me no more, don't shoot me no more. 259 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:12,400 Speaker 2: But there was no more gunfire. English was lying in 260 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:15,960 Speaker 2: the grass, curled in the fetal position. He couldn't feel 261 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:19,000 Speaker 2: his legs. His radio mic was still attached to his 262 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:22,240 Speaker 2: shoulder and he turned his head to speak into it. 263 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:27,400 Speaker 6: It was like America just came over. He just came 264 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:34,680 Speaker 6: to the fence, and I said, my God said talking tall, 265 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 6: just talk to everybody. Can let the whole one know 266 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:39,040 Speaker 6: what's going on. 267 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 5: So I just I. 268 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 6: Just pressed the mic and just start talking and give 269 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:43,720 Speaker 6: him the rest. 270 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:48,640 Speaker 2: The location where we were, English heard a car start 271 00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:53,160 Speaker 2: and drive off. Other law enforcement arrived moments later. They 272 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:55,240 Speaker 2: found Keenchin lying in the middle of the street and 273 00:15:55,320 --> 00:16:02,000 Speaker 2: English in the grass next to the mast. The morning 274 00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:06,520 Speaker 2: after the shootout at the hospital, Brett Zimbrick the detective, 275 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:09,560 Speaker 2: he had a photo lineup of six men, one of 276 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:12,640 Speaker 2: them a man Jamial. He wanted to see if English 277 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:15,240 Speaker 2: could id the man he said he looked in the 278 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:19,160 Speaker 2: eye the man who shot him in Keinchin. According to 279 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:22,240 Speaker 2: his report, Brett didn't ask English if he'd seen anyone 280 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:26,280 Speaker 2: else with a gun before Brett showed English the lineup. 281 00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:28,160 Speaker 2: He wanted to make sure that English would make a 282 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:31,240 Speaker 2: choice based solely on his memory from that night, So 283 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:33,280 Speaker 2: Brett asked English some questions. 284 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:36,240 Speaker 3: Had you seen TV? No, has anybody told you who 285 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:37,000 Speaker 3: you were going after? 286 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:37,240 Speaker 7: No? 287 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:39,000 Speaker 3: Has anybody told you who shot you? 288 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 7: No? 289 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:41,720 Speaker 5: Do you know who you were going after? 290 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:45,480 Speaker 3: And that, to me was important because if he would 291 00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:47,240 Speaker 3: have said that, then there would have been some question 292 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 3: on the lineup. He never mentioned it. He didn't have 293 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:54,600 Speaker 3: any idea who this man was, so the lineup was 294 00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:55,760 Speaker 3: a pure lineup. 295 00:16:56,360 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 2: Brett concluded that English didn't know of a man Jamil 296 00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:01,720 Speaker 2: before that night, that he hadn't seen him on TV, 297 00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 2: that he didn't remember h Rap Brown from some history 298 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:08,040 Speaker 2: class that he didn't know about the rotten relationship between 299 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:11,199 Speaker 2: Rapp and the police, so Brett showed him the lineup. 300 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:15,960 Speaker 3: He looks at the lineup and immediately goes to alamine 301 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:17,920 Speaker 3: and says, that's the guy. I said, that's the guy. 302 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:20,320 Speaker 3: What he says, that's the guy that shot me and 303 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:20,840 Speaker 3: my partner. 304 00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:25,919 Speaker 2: Actually, he said, that's the motherfucker who shot me and 305 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:32,760 Speaker 2: my partner. By that afternoon, Brett went to a judge 306 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:35,399 Speaker 2: for warrance to arrest a Maam Jamil on charges of 307 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:39,480 Speaker 2: aggravated assault for shooting Kensin and English, but he had 308 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:41,920 Speaker 2: to go back later that day to get the warrant updated. 309 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:46,800 Speaker 2: English survived, but Kenchin had died in the hospital. Now 310 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:51,399 Speaker 2: Ma'am Jamil was wanted for murder. English's account is not 311 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:57,240 Speaker 2: without detractors, and rightfully so. There are inconsistencies, some that 312 00:17:57,320 --> 00:17:59,520 Speaker 2: even suggest that a Maam Jamial wasn't the person who 313 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:03,280 Speaker 2: shot the day, but law enforcement tends to trust an 314 00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:07,480 Speaker 2: injured officer their account can generate appointed and powerful energy 315 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:14,840 Speaker 2: to catch the alleged criminal at almost any cost. For 316 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:17,280 Speaker 2: most of the twenty years I've been a journalist, I've 317 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:20,919 Speaker 2: covered the criminal court system in America. We have an 318 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:26,040 Speaker 2: adversarial system prosecutors and police officers against alleged criminals and 319 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:29,159 Speaker 2: their lawyers, And I'm starting to think that's at the 320 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:32,360 Speaker 2: root of something I keep bumping into while reporting this story. 321 00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:36,840 Speaker 2: And us versus them, mentality, good guys versus bad guys, 322 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:42,120 Speaker 2: even some cosmic battle between righteousness and evil are countless 323 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:47,120 Speaker 2: TV crime dramas, only reinforced and heighten the stakes when 324 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:50,840 Speaker 2: people enter this territory. In their thinking, something is lost 325 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:53,360 Speaker 2: about how they see the human beings on the other side. 326 00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:56,679 Speaker 2: Something beautiful that I believe, which is that nearly all 327 00:18:56,720 --> 00:18:58,879 Speaker 2: of us have a heroic impulse to do what we 328 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:02,920 Speaker 2: think is good. Sure some people are thwarted and get 329 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:04,320 Speaker 2: it really really twisted. 330 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:06,200 Speaker 5: Still we all have it. 331 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:10,439 Speaker 2: But law enforcement, I wonder how much they see that. 332 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:13,919 Speaker 2: What I most often heard from them and working on 333 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:17,119 Speaker 2: the story was some version of the good versus evil philosophy. 334 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:20,120 Speaker 2: Maybe if your whole job is looking for people you're 335 00:19:20,119 --> 00:19:23,920 Speaker 2: told or bad guys, you're going to believe they're inherently bad. 336 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:27,640 Speaker 2: Some people definitely do awful things to others, don't get 337 00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:31,720 Speaker 2: me wrong, but losing sight of human goodness, staying entrenched 338 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:35,400 Speaker 2: in that adversarial system. It limits any chance of finding 339 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:45,080 Speaker 2: common cause justice and that deeper sense the US versus 340 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:49,000 Speaker 2: them mentality. It fosters camaraderie and loyalty. 341 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:50,520 Speaker 5: On each side. 342 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:52,719 Speaker 2: In the hours after the shootout in the West End, 343 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:55,560 Speaker 2: Brett Zimbrick was feeling some of the pressure that comes 344 00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:58,600 Speaker 2: with that pressure to look out for his fellow cops. 345 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:02,159 Speaker 2: It took Brett less than twenty four hours to get 346 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:04,399 Speaker 2: an arrest warrant for a Ma'am Jamil for shooting the 347 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:05,200 Speaker 2: two deputies. 348 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:09,680 Speaker 3: Some investigations, you know, bad guys there on the scene 349 00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:14,879 Speaker 3: gets taken into custody. Others, you know, it takes days, weeks, months, 350 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:21,640 Speaker 3: sometimes years for it to be law enforcement that was shot. 351 00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:27,520 Speaker 3: It was probably pretty important for morale and confidence in 352 00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:30,760 Speaker 3: the police department that we got warrants quick. I'm sure 353 00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:34,719 Speaker 3: cops appreciate the fact that we work quick and efficiently 354 00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:37,639 Speaker 3: and diligently to get the bad guys off the street. 355 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 2: So it wasn't just law enforcement in Atlanta that was 356 00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:45,240 Speaker 2: paying special attention to the case. It would have been 357 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:48,959 Speaker 2: law enforcement around the country at all levels. That's because 358 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:51,679 Speaker 2: a Ma'am Jamil had a reputation with law enforcement that 359 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:54,200 Speaker 2: began to develop when he was still a trap Brown. 360 00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:57,480 Speaker 2: I want to go back to a story about how 361 00:20:57,480 --> 00:21:01,679 Speaker 2: that reputation crystallized, how cops came to view him something 362 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 2: like an enemy. It helps explain some of the ways 363 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:08,000 Speaker 2: law enforcement acted in the days after the shootout as 364 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:12,600 Speaker 2: they chased down a man Jamil. In nineteen seventy one, 365 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:14,879 Speaker 2: during a period when Rap was in hiding in on 366 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:18,000 Speaker 2: the FBI's most wanted list, he and three other men, 367 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 2: also Black Power activists, carried gans into a club in Manhattan. 368 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:26,080 Speaker 2: Most if not all, the customers at the bar were black. 369 00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:29,040 Speaker 2: The four men held them up, hit them for cash 370 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:32,800 Speaker 2: and jewelry. When police arrived, Rap fled and the chase 371 00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:35,119 Speaker 2: led police to the roof of a nearby apartment building. 372 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:39,520 Speaker 2: An officer shot and wounded Rap and carried him bleeding 373 00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:42,560 Speaker 2: down thirteen flights of stairs to the street, not knowing 374 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:48,040 Speaker 2: who he was. There was gambling happening at the club, 375 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:51,919 Speaker 2: and at the trial, Rap's defense tried to introduce evidence 376 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:54,439 Speaker 2: that the police were on the take and covering up 377 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:58,680 Speaker 2: a legal activity. It was never proven, but stealing from 378 00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:00,920 Speaker 2: a corrupt syndicate might have been motive for Rap and 379 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:04,439 Speaker 2: the other men. The whole episode, including a blow by 380 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:07,560 Speaker 2: blow account of the chase and the shooting, was chronicled 381 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:10,080 Speaker 2: in a New York magazine story written by a retired 382 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:13,840 Speaker 2: police commissioner. It celebrated the officer who shot Rap is 383 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:22,200 Speaker 2: a hero. Decades later, in two thousand, bred Zimberg got 384 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 2: a call from that same officer. 385 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:25,800 Speaker 5: What did he say? 386 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:28,399 Speaker 3: He was just checking on the officers. He was just like, hey, man, 387 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:31,720 Speaker 3: I'm the one that you know was involved in that shootout, 388 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:35,439 Speaker 3: shot him, arrested him. He said he was, you know, 389 00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:38,720 Speaker 3: you know, the old cop thing. He tried to be 390 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:40,399 Speaker 3: a badass. You know, like if I'd have known then 391 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:42,359 Speaker 3: what I know now, I'd have shot him more or something, 392 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:46,320 Speaker 3: you know whatever, something like that. 393 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:49,560 Speaker 2: That New York cop and maybe others in law enforcement, 394 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:52,560 Speaker 2: they seem to think Rap was a violent criminal out 395 00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:53,040 Speaker 2: to get them. 396 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:57,080 Speaker 5: Specifically, I'd have shot him more, the officer told Brett. 397 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:01,359 Speaker 2: A homicide. To prevent a homicide, a bad guy dies, 398 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:04,560 Speaker 2: so a good guy lives. It's a pernicious way of 399 00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:08,119 Speaker 2: thinking that can spin out of control. It does remind 400 00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:10,560 Speaker 2: me of how one of a man Jamil supporters, Belal 401 00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:13,560 Speaker 2: Sunni Ali said the deputy killed in the West End 402 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:16,240 Speaker 2: deserved what he got coming into their neighborhood like that 403 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:20,480 Speaker 2: saw him as a cop and nothing more. To me, 404 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:25,400 Speaker 2: it's the same kind of essentialism. Deputy English didn't want 405 00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:27,960 Speaker 2: to be interviewed for this story. A friend of his 406 00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:30,320 Speaker 2: passed on the message to me that English has moved 407 00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:33,280 Speaker 2: on and also that he forgave that guy a long 408 00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:37,200 Speaker 2: time ago, referring to a man Jamil. We wrote to 409 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:42,200 Speaker 2: Kinchin's family, but we couldn't reach them. Still, I want 410 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:44,560 Speaker 2: to take a moment to acknowledge a life that was lost. 411 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:52,560 Speaker 2: We were able to talk to a union leader for 412 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:54,960 Speaker 2: the Fulton County Sheriff's Office who worked with Kenchin in 413 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:58,119 Speaker 2: the county jail. He said that Kenchin was a jokester, 414 00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:00,960 Speaker 2: that he could burn you and you until you wanted 415 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:03,119 Speaker 2: to punch him, and then he would back off and 416 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:06,400 Speaker 2: have everyone laughing, including you the target of the jokes. 417 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:11,000 Speaker 2: The killing of Keensin it had ripple effects. He had 418 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:14,600 Speaker 2: a wife and two daughters. We know from court documents 419 00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:17,959 Speaker 2: that he left his family angry and depressed. I can 420 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:27,159 Speaker 2: only hope that they are finding peace. So back to 421 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:30,200 Speaker 2: the aftermath of the shooting in the west End. Brett 422 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:33,240 Speaker 2: had gotten the warrants for Ma'am Jamil's arrest. His job 423 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:37,440 Speaker 2: was mostly done, but Ma'am Jamil was still missing. Enter 424 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:41,239 Speaker 2: James Ergus, a US Marshal at the time. James had 425 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:43,439 Speaker 2: made a life's work of being a good guy chasing 426 00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:47,480 Speaker 2: bad guys. Before James joined the Marshals, he was in 427 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:50,919 Speaker 2: the US Special Forces, deployed in the Middle East and Somalia, 428 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:53,680 Speaker 2: jumping out of planes and flying in a dangerous places 429 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:55,600 Speaker 2: and helicopters, that kind of thing. 430 00:24:56,320 --> 00:25:00,440 Speaker 7: I really joined the military because I just thought I 431 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:02,399 Speaker 7: didn't know whether I was a coward or not. And 432 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:05,080 Speaker 7: all I can tell you to this day is not yet. 433 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:09,480 Speaker 2: James said, he's good with a rifle. He's short and muscled, 434 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:12,560 Speaker 2: built like a running back, like someone who was good 435 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:15,399 Speaker 2: at chasing people. And that's what he did when he 436 00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:18,080 Speaker 2: joined the Marshals. A big part of their job is 437 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:21,520 Speaker 2: arresting fugitives. It makes James tierry to think about it. 438 00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:26,480 Speaker 7: The Marshal Service and the guys and gals that work 439 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:30,280 Speaker 7: with the Marshal Service have the single best job that 440 00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:38,080 Speaker 7: you can have in enforcement. They get to go hunt 441 00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:43,040 Speaker 7: people that harm their community. They get to go give 442 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:45,280 Speaker 7: that person to someone else, and then they get to 443 00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:48,800 Speaker 7: hunt another person that harms someone in their community, and 444 00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:52,760 Speaker 7: it's all good work. You can't want to do something 445 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:56,480 Speaker 7: more than stop people from hurting people, and you get 446 00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:59,000 Speaker 7: to be in a position to do that. That's the 447 00:25:59,040 --> 00:25:59,800 Speaker 7: best thing ever. 448 00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:05,159 Speaker 2: It is this idea of hunting people. I'm troubled by it. 449 00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:08,600 Speaker 2: I have to say, I'm a writer. Words matter to me. 450 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:11,480 Speaker 2: I'm going to assume that James isn't out there looking 451 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:13,760 Speaker 2: for a kill. But for me, a hunt is something 452 00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:16,439 Speaker 2: that ends in a loss of life, So I'm not 453 00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:18,760 Speaker 2: going to use that word anyway. 454 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:19,720 Speaker 5: That's James. 455 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:22,479 Speaker 2: After the shooting in the West End, he got an 456 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:25,040 Speaker 2: early morning call there was going to be a meeting 457 00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:29,479 Speaker 2: of federal, state, and local law enforcement. James said that 458 00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:31,960 Speaker 2: since he knew it was about two deputies who were shot, 459 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:35,160 Speaker 2: two people working in law enforcement, he would have tried 460 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:37,400 Speaker 2: to get into that meeting even if he wasn't invited. 461 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:39,440 Speaker 2: He just wanted to be involved. 462 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:45,639 Speaker 7: Every agency and representatives from every single agency in Metro 463 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:48,480 Speaker 7: Atlanta or at the meeting. Everything was really a blur. 464 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:51,040 Speaker 7: All this information was coming in. Everybodys trying to figure 465 00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:55,159 Speaker 7: it out. And they pretty much called out Alaman as 466 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:57,840 Speaker 7: being the target. Investigation right away. 467 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:01,199 Speaker 2: James and the Marshall's got a manage meals records and 468 00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:04,320 Speaker 2: the phone records of some people close to him. Then 469 00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:08,440 Speaker 2: he worked the phones himself. He called colleagues to access databases, 470 00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:10,440 Speaker 2: and he fielded calls from other law enforcement. 471 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:14,440 Speaker 7: We would burn through phone batteries, like we all had 472 00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:17,480 Speaker 7: multiple cell phones, and we had them because you'd be 473 00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:20,080 Speaker 7: on one so much that the battery would die on 474 00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:22,000 Speaker 7: it and you'd have to charge it and couldn't stay 475 00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:23,920 Speaker 7: You'd be talking on it and it's plugged in and 476 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:24,879 Speaker 7: it wouldn't stay charged. 477 00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:30,000 Speaker 2: On March seventeenth, less than twenty four hours after the shootout, 478 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:32,680 Speaker 2: an alert went out to law enforcement around the country. 479 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:36,439 Speaker 2: It said be on the lookout for Jamil Abdullah el Amine. 480 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:42,000 Speaker 2: Other notices warned he was armed and dangerous. News outlets 481 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:44,720 Speaker 2: were reporting he was a suspect in the shooting, a 482 00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:47,840 Speaker 2: man Jamil must have known he was being pursued. I 483 00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:50,600 Speaker 2: don't know much about what AmAm Jamil was doing, but 484 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:52,800 Speaker 2: the FBI listened in on calls from at least to 485 00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:55,160 Speaker 2: one of his phones, and we were able to get 486 00:27:55,200 --> 00:28:03,439 Speaker 2: some recordings. Yeah, the calls were very short and they're vague. 487 00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:08,880 Speaker 1: I mean that that leads to the huhl, that leads 488 00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:09,600 Speaker 1: to the back back. 489 00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:12,600 Speaker 2: Then it's hard to understand what's going on, but everyone 490 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 2: on the phone seemed tense. 491 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:16,800 Speaker 3: Picked the other brother up first, and then make sure 492 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:18,400 Speaker 3: man better, make sure ain't. 493 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:18,960 Speaker 6: Nobody behind him? 494 00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:19,760 Speaker 4: Okay. 495 00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:23,840 Speaker 7: So like what time you come uh bottom of awl? 496 00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:25,040 Speaker 4: Yeah, picked the. 497 00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:29,360 Speaker 7: Other brother and makes you ain't no better behind you man, Okay. 498 00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:33,120 Speaker 2: I wonder if ma'am Jamil felt like he was really 499 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:36,160 Speaker 2: going to get away, like there were enough people out 500 00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:39,360 Speaker 2: there on his side to spirit him to safety. I 501 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:41,840 Speaker 2: don't know exactly how the FEDS eventually figured out the 502 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:44,920 Speaker 2: general area where he was. My best theory is that 503 00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:47,640 Speaker 2: it was a combination of human informants and surveillance of 504 00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:50,680 Speaker 2: his phone. They zeroed in on a rural area in 505 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:53,480 Speaker 2: Alabama where ma'am Jamil had helped set up a mass 506 00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:55,680 Speaker 2: j it. It was the same place that in the 507 00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:59,560 Speaker 2: sixties a man Jamil rap at the time helped inspire 508 00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:01,680 Speaker 2: people to stand up to the white establishment. In the 509 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:06,720 Speaker 2: local sheriff James and the Marshalls, and dozens of FBI agents. 510 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:11,240 Speaker 2: They were going to get a ma'am genial in the 511 00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:24,480 Speaker 2: black belt in Lowndes County. So in March two thousand, 512 00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:27,720 Speaker 2: just a few days after the shootout, a bunch of 513 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:30,479 Speaker 2: men with guns descended on the flatlands and pine forests 514 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:34,200 Speaker 2: of Lowndes County, Alabama. The officers had explicit orders from 515 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:41,360 Speaker 2: the government find Jamil Alamine within Lowndes County. James, Ergus, 516 00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:45,120 Speaker 2: the US Marshall, and the other federal agents. They were 517 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:48,520 Speaker 2: focused on the tiny city of Whitehall, population just a 518 00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:51,600 Speaker 2: few thousand. It was where Ma'am Jamil was hoping to 519 00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:55,960 Speaker 2: grow and lead another Muslim community. Back in the sixties, 520 00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:59,160 Speaker 2: Whitehall had been a center of Snick's voter registration campaigns 521 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:01,760 Speaker 2: in Lowndes County, but black people never took over the 522 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,760 Speaker 2: reins of power there. It led a local activist to 523 00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:07,960 Speaker 2: incorporate Whitehall. If they couldn't control the county, at least 524 00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:11,280 Speaker 2: black people could control their own city. It was community 525 00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:15,240 Speaker 2: self determination and black power and practice not unlike a 526 00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:22,560 Speaker 2: Ma'am Jamial's West End. To help them find a Mam Jmial, 527 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:25,840 Speaker 2: James and his Marshall colleagues were using a surveillance technology 528 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:30,160 Speaker 2: called a cell site simulator. The Marshals and FBI they 529 00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:33,280 Speaker 2: had a mam Jamal's number. If he turned on his phone, 530 00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:35,760 Speaker 2: the cell site simulator could give them a general sense 531 00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:38,240 Speaker 2: of where he was, but when he made a call, 532 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:40,960 Speaker 2: they could get a more precise location based on the 533 00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:44,360 Speaker 2: strength of the signal and which direction it was coming from. 534 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:47,560 Speaker 2: James and most of the FEDS were stationed outside of Whitehall, 535 00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:49,960 Speaker 2: so when a mam jamial made a call, they would 536 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:52,640 Speaker 2: rush toward the signal, but when he hung up, the 537 00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:55,040 Speaker 2: signal would drop out and they'd have to start over. 538 00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:01,400 Speaker 7: So we would get over there, and by the time 539 00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:05,520 Speaker 7: that you'd get over there, the hit wouldn't be there 540 00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:08,880 Speaker 7: and you couldn't figure out exactly where it was. So 541 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:11,960 Speaker 7: we would drive back, and I think that day it happened 542 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:14,160 Speaker 7: a couple of times and we all looked at each 543 00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:16,160 Speaker 7: other and we're We're like, we're not doing that anymore. 544 00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:16,880 Speaker 7: We can't. 545 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:21,000 Speaker 2: We can't be here with all the agents and vehicles around. 546 00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:23,560 Speaker 2: James figured a mam jamil must have known the Feds 547 00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:26,680 Speaker 2: were there, and the more time passed, the more likely 548 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:28,720 Speaker 2: it was that someone would come pick him up and 549 00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:32,280 Speaker 2: take him across the country or out of the country, 550 00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:35,120 Speaker 2: so James and his two Marshall colleagues drove to Whitehall. 551 00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:38,480 Speaker 2: They backed their black Chevy Tahoe into the edge of 552 00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:44,000 Speaker 2: a thicket and waited. Late in the day on March twentieth, 553 00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:45,280 Speaker 2: they picked up another call from a. 554 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:46,360 Speaker 5: Man Jamial's phone. 555 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:49,840 Speaker 2: It was a strong, clear signal and it showed that 556 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:50,800 Speaker 2: the phone was close. 557 00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:55,719 Speaker 5: The Marshals drove out of the woods. 558 00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:58,760 Speaker 2: They radioed the FBI to let them know what was happening. 559 00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:00,920 Speaker 7: They were like, can you It was like we could 560 00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:03,320 Speaker 7: lose a signal again, and we lose a signal again. 561 00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:04,880 Speaker 7: We're right back where we were before. We don't know 562 00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:06,320 Speaker 7: if he's not moving, We don't know, you know what 563 00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:07,040 Speaker 7: I mean, We don't know. 564 00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:10,480 Speaker 2: After the Marshalls drove onto the road, they realized they 565 00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:12,680 Speaker 2: were headed in the wrong direction and they made a 566 00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:15,280 Speaker 2: U turn. A mam Demial was still on the phone 567 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:17,520 Speaker 2: and the signal kept getting stronger, and all of. 568 00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:19,560 Speaker 7: Sudden we see him and we all see him at 569 00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:21,920 Speaker 7: the same time. He's standing right at the edge of 570 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:23,960 Speaker 7: a little shed at the edge of the woodline. 571 00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:27,480 Speaker 2: James remembers seeing a Mam Demial out of the right 572 00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:30,960 Speaker 2: side of the suv standing next to a ship, which 573 00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:34,680 Speaker 2: was near a small, one story white house. A little 574 00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:37,320 Speaker 2: further back was a wooded area. James said, a mam 575 00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:40,320 Speaker 2: Jamial was wearing a hat, probably a Koofi, and a 576 00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:41,160 Speaker 2: light colored thoat. 577 00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:45,480 Speaker 7: So we drove right toward the shed and that's exactly 578 00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:50,040 Speaker 7: where it was, and he he looked exactly like every 579 00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:52,320 Speaker 7: picture that you'd ever seen him. I mean, there was 580 00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:56,400 Speaker 7: instantaneous recognition, and that I can't say that that's always 581 00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:56,880 Speaker 7: the case. 582 00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:00,720 Speaker 2: As they pulled up, a man Demial began to head 583 00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:04,120 Speaker 2: towards the woods nearby. The marshals guy out of the 584 00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:07,960 Speaker 2: suv yelled, they wear police, and almost immediately James said 585 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:10,640 Speaker 2: he heard about three to five gunshots from a rifle. 586 00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:14,120 Speaker 2: He and the other marshals found cover and they watched 587 00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:15,840 Speaker 2: a man Jamil disappear. 588 00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:16,880 Speaker 5: Into the woods. 589 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:21,400 Speaker 2: People living in Whitehall witness this confrontation. One of them 590 00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:24,800 Speaker 2: said he saw the fed shooting. When my colleague, producer 591 00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:29,400 Speaker 2: Johnny Kaufman, contacted him, he confirmed his account but never 592 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:33,120 Speaker 2: agreed to a recorded interview. James is clear that a 593 00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:36,480 Speaker 2: man Jamil shot at him and the other marshals. Three 594 00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:38,400 Speaker 2: shellcasings were found at the scene and linked to a 595 00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:42,240 Speaker 2: man Jamial. But at this point I've accepted that I'll 596 00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:48,200 Speaker 2: never know for sure what happened during this confrontation. Anyway, 597 00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:51,000 Speaker 2: after the gunfire and after a mam Jamial went into 598 00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:54,560 Speaker 2: the woods, James and the Marshals stopped their pursuit. They 599 00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:57,680 Speaker 2: didn't follow him. The FBI agent had already arrived at 600 00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:00,600 Speaker 2: the scene, many more would be there soon, and they 601 00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:03,640 Speaker 2: began to surround the woods. They called in a dog 602 00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:05,840 Speaker 2: tracking team that was based about an hour away at 603 00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:07,160 Speaker 2: an Alabama state prison. 604 00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:10,400 Speaker 7: We knew he was in the woods. We knew he 605 00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:12,960 Speaker 7: didn't have anybody else with him. He doesn't have a car. 606 00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:17,080 Speaker 7: There's nowhere for him to go. We've got the area contained. Basically, 607 00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:18,680 Speaker 7: we don't want to run in there after him, because 608 00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:20,200 Speaker 7: you're going to mess up the track for the dog. 609 00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:25,040 Speaker 2: The FBI searched the shed in the White House next 610 00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:28,160 Speaker 2: to it, the small Muslim community in Whitehall that a 611 00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:31,080 Speaker 2: mam Jamil had established. At some point, they had been 612 00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:34,800 Speaker 2: using the house as a mass hit. Inside, the FBI 613 00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:38,400 Speaker 2: found water jugs, a pizza hut box, toilet paper, and 614 00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:41,120 Speaker 2: a mattress. It seemed like a mam Jamial had been 615 00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:45,480 Speaker 2: hiding out there. I'm often wondering what a Mam Demial 616 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:47,800 Speaker 2: must have been thinking at different moments like this one, 617 00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:51,480 Speaker 2: when he was on the run in Whitehall and now 618 00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:54,719 Speaker 2: in the woods, surrounded by the Feds. He must have 619 00:34:54,760 --> 00:35:00,279 Speaker 2: been scared. But what's scared a most being killed, being 620 00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:04,279 Speaker 2: locked up and sort of losing to law enforcement. I 621 00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:06,800 Speaker 2: don't know. And I also don't know if he expected 622 00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:09,840 Speaker 2: someone to come pick him up on the edge of 623 00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:13,440 Speaker 2: the woods. James was worried about that and the possibility 624 00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:15,959 Speaker 2: that he might have to track down a Maneamial somewhere else. 625 00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:18,319 Speaker 7: The guys are going to the woods if they can 626 00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:21,440 Speaker 7: get away from law enforcement, they'll call somebody and they'll 627 00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:23,040 Speaker 7: have them come pick them up. The run out the woods, 628 00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:24,319 Speaker 7: jumping the car and they'll drive off. 629 00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:28,839 Speaker 2: It was dark out when the dog team arrived, two 630 00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:32,399 Speaker 2: handlers and their beagles. A few hours had passed since 631 00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:36,200 Speaker 2: James first spotted a man Jamial. The most detailed acount 632 00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:37,920 Speaker 2: of what happened in the woods probably comes from a 633 00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:41,160 Speaker 2: document we have. It's an affidavit signed by Ron Campbell, 634 00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:44,920 Speaker 2: an FBI agent based in Atlanta. Campbell and two other 635 00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:47,080 Speaker 2: agents went into the woods with a dog team to 636 00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:51,280 Speaker 2: protect them. Overhead was a helicopter with the big. 637 00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:52,000 Speaker 5: Light on the bottom. 638 00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:56,200 Speaker 2: The men went from the woods across the road and 639 00:35:56,239 --> 00:35:59,879 Speaker 2: into a waste deep swamp. Campbell fell and he got 640 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:03,040 Speaker 2: separated from the dogs and the other agents. It was 641 00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:05,520 Speaker 2: a black deputy with the Loundes County Sheriff's Office who 642 00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:08,919 Speaker 2: ultimately spotted a Maam Jamial. He was from the same 643 00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:11,440 Speaker 2: office that h. Rapp Brown and his fellow snake activists 644 00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:14,880 Speaker 2: had been so focused on back in the sixties. The 645 00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:17,279 Speaker 2: deputy saw him walking across the road back near the 646 00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:20,359 Speaker 2: city of Whitehall. He pulled his gun out and told 647 00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:23,200 Speaker 2: a Mam Jmial to lay on the ground, and he did. 648 00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:26,480 Speaker 2: Most of the other agents showed up and surrounded a 649 00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:31,560 Speaker 2: Mam Jmial. He was on the ground, handcuffed. James Ergas said, 650 00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:33,480 Speaker 2: he looked tired and worn out. 651 00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:38,920 Speaker 7: He was very quiet at least when I got to him, 652 00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:40,920 Speaker 7: and I probably got it to him within a I 653 00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:43,239 Speaker 7: would say, within a minute or two of him coming 654 00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:46,080 Speaker 7: out of the woods. He wasn't combato or anything. 655 00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:51,000 Speaker 2: Then two things happen within minutes that have inspired claims 656 00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:53,600 Speaker 2: that a Maam Jamial was framed. They're part of the 657 00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:57,560 Speaker 2: reason I decided to look into the case. First, a 658 00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:01,280 Speaker 2: medic checked a Mam Demial for injuries. Remember that Deputy 659 00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:05,040 Speaker 2: English said he shot his assailant in the West End. Well, 660 00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:07,640 Speaker 2: the medic didn't find any wounds on a Mam Jamial, 661 00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:11,719 Speaker 2: he hadn't been shot, and moments later, as a Mam 662 00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:16,320 Speaker 2: Jamil was still on the ground defenseless, Campbell, the FBI 663 00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:19,960 Speaker 2: agent who fell behind, he showed up. He kicked a 664 00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:22,400 Speaker 2: Ma'am Jamil and said this is what we do to 665 00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:28,879 Speaker 2: cop killers. Then Campbell spit at him and cursed him out. 666 00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:34,640 Speaker 2: Campbell had a history. Earlier in his career, he shot 667 00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:36,959 Speaker 2: an African American Muslim in the back of the head 668 00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:40,680 Speaker 2: and killed him. It was a man law enforcement had 669 00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:44,840 Speaker 2: been after for assaulting two officers. Campbell's story was that 670 00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:47,360 Speaker 2: he fired because the man had a gun, and a 671 00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:50,400 Speaker 2: gun was recovered after the shooting, but it didn't have 672 00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:53,000 Speaker 2: any fingerprints on it, and witnesses. 673 00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:54,240 Speaker 5: Alleged it had been placed. 674 00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:57,920 Speaker 2: An internal investigation cleared Campbell and he was never charged 675 00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:01,719 Speaker 2: for anything related to the incident. The same night of 676 00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:05,560 Speaker 2: Ma'am Jamil was arrested after Campbell had kicked him. One 677 00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:08,239 Speaker 2: of the dog handlers found the pistol along Campbell's path 678 00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:12,160 Speaker 2: through the woods, and the next day law enforcement found 679 00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:15,600 Speaker 2: a semi automatic rifle. Both weapons were linked to the 680 00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:17,920 Speaker 2: shootout in the West End, but as far as I 681 00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:20,960 Speaker 2: can tell, there were no fingerprints on either of them. 682 00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:24,879 Speaker 2: We contacted both dog handlers and Campbell, but they didn't 683 00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:30,120 Speaker 2: agree to interviews. For Defenders of a Man Jamil, it 684 00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:33,040 Speaker 2: was easy to imagine all kinds of devious scenarios about 685 00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:35,120 Speaker 2: what Campbell might have done in those moments he was 686 00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:39,960 Speaker 2: alone in the woods, especially because the FBI had targeted 687 00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:41,360 Speaker 2: rap at least once before. 688 00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:46,040 Speaker 7: The bomb was so bad that it totally eviscerated the car, 689 00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:50,280 Speaker 7: and most people argue that and Brown was the target. 690 00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:56,360 Speaker 2: Why wouldn't people imagine they'd do it again that In 691 00:38:56,440 --> 00:39:19,200 Speaker 2: the next episode of Radical. Radical is a production of 692 00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:24,320 Speaker 2: Campside Media, Tenderfoot TV, and iHeart Podcasts. Radical was reported 693 00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:28,520 Speaker 2: and written by Johnny Kaufman and me Mossey's Secret Johnny 694 00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:30,000 Speaker 2: Coaufman is our senior producer. 695 00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:32,400 Speaker 5: Sheba Joseph is our associate producer. 696 00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:37,120 Speaker 2: Editing by Eric Benson, Johnny Coffin, Emily Martinez. 697 00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:37,400 Speaker 5: And Matt Cher. 698 00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:42,400 Speaker 2: Fact checking by Sophie Hurwitz, Kaylin Lynch and Layla Dos. 699 00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:45,880 Speaker 2: Original music by Kyle Murdoch and by Ray Murray of 700 00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:50,280 Speaker 2: Organized Noise. Sound design and mixing by Kevin Seaman. Recording 701 00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:51,800 Speaker 2: by Ewan Leed trem Ewen. 702 00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:53,239 Speaker 5: And Sheba Joseph. 703 00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:59,120 Speaker 2: Campside Media's operations team is Doug Slaywan, Ashley Warren, Eliah Papes, 704 00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:01,439 Speaker 2: Destiny Dingle, and Sabina Mera. 705 00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:03,959 Speaker 5: The executive producers at. 706 00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:08,400 Speaker 2: Campside Media are Josh Dean, Vanessa, Gregoriatis, Adam Hoff, and 707 00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:14,400 Speaker 2: Matt Cheer. For Tenderfoot TV, executive producers are Donald Albright 708 00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:18,680 Speaker 2: and Payne Lindsay. The executive producers at iHeart Podcasts are 709 00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:22,600 Speaker 2: Matt Frederick and Alex Williams, with additional support from Trevor Young,