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Speaker 1: Pushkin.

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Speaker 2: Hello, Hello revisionist history listeners. Today we're diving into the

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Speaker 2: world of human interaction with the smallest of exchanges can

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Speaker 2: have profound impacts on our lives. That's right, we're talking

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Speaker 2: small talk. For the latest Pushkin audiobook, I was interviewed

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Speaker 2: by comedians and actresses Casey Wilson and Jessica Saint Clair

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Speaker 2: in the Art of Small Talk. They explore the joy

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Speaker 2: of everyday conversations, helping listeners turn the mundane into magic

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Speaker 2: through what some might call idle chit chat. They have

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Speaker 2: such great chemistry and say such insightful things that it

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Speaker 2: makes for an incredibly entertaining audiobook. So I'm happy to

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Speaker 2: share a clip of my contribution to the project right now,

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Speaker 2: and remember you can purchase The Art of Small Talk

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Speaker 2: at Pushkin dot fm slash audiobook. So let's sit back,

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Speaker 2: relax and learn from the masters of small talk. Casey

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Speaker 2: Wilson and Jessica Saint Clair.

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Speaker 3: Take it away, Chapter one, Why we need small Talk.

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Speaker 3: Much has been made of self care in the last decade. Hydration, here, yoga, there, gratitude,

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Speaker 3: journaling everywhere. It can be exhausting and when we don't

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Speaker 3: follow the so called rules we often feel guilty, which

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Speaker 3: has the reverse outcome for our overall well being.

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Speaker 1: Jess and I believe that small talk is both the

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Speaker 1: easiest and most important form of self care because of

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Speaker 1: its proven benefits on our mental and physical health.

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Speaker 3: Here's psychologist, author, and social science columnists for The Wall

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Speaker 3: Street Journal Susan Pinker giving her ted talk. The secret

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Speaker 3: to living longer could be your social life.

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Speaker 4: Face to face contact release is a whole cascade of neurotransmitters,

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Speaker 4: and like a vaccine, they protect you now, in the

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Speaker 4: present and well into the future. So simply making eye

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Speaker 4: contact with somebody, shaking hands, giving somebody a high five

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Speaker 4: is enough to release oxytocin, which increases your level of trust,

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Speaker 4: and it lowers your cortisol levels, so it lowers your stress.

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Speaker 4: And dopamine is generated, which gives us a little high

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Speaker 4: and it kills pain. It's like a naturally produced morphine.

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Speaker 1: It kills pain. Okay, So this all makes sense to

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Speaker 1: me because small talk is why I no longer fear

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Speaker 1: the dentist. For my entire life, I have been absolutely

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Speaker 1: terrified of the dentist because when I was little, I

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Speaker 1: got slapped for shocker talking too much in the chair.

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Speaker 1: I used to go under anesthesia for root canals, and

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Speaker 1: I had to get laughing gas for cleanings. I was

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Speaker 1: so scared.

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Speaker 3: What for cleanings is that even allowed for a price?

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Speaker 3: So it's off menu.

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Speaker 1: I never claimed to be relatable anyway. That's all in

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Speaker 1: the past, because this year I finally found a dental hygienis.

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Speaker 1: Shout out to Darwin, who likes the same TV shows

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Speaker 1: as I do. Once he and I get to chatting,

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Speaker 1: I'm too distracted by the feel good hormones rushing through

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Speaker 1: my body that I'm no longer scared at all. Small

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Speaker 1: talking with my new hygienist is my new laughing guest.

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Speaker 3: If anyone could maintain a steady stream of combo while

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Speaker 3: getting their teeth cleaned, it is you.

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Speaker 1: It's hard with all those sharp tools in your mouth,

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Speaker 1: but I make it work.

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Speaker 3: What an odd and yet beautiful endorsement of small talk.

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Speaker 1: It might be time for an intervention because Jessica and

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Speaker 1: I are addicted to small talk, which is okay because

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Speaker 1: as addictions go, and I have several, small talk is

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Speaker 1: a great one to have because it gets you high

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Speaker 1: as hell, and it's free.

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Speaker 3: And we're in good company. Case comedic legend with hair

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Speaker 3: like spun gold. Amy Poehler also takes advantage of every

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Speaker 3: opportunity she gets to use small talk.

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Speaker 5: I think anytime you can say thank you, thank you

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Speaker 5: for helping, thank you for coming. Uh, I see, I

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Speaker 5: see how hard you're working, you're doing a great any

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Speaker 5: kind of version of that, the tiniest bit of that.

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Speaker 3: I mean, you can say that and you can keep moving.

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Speaker 5: You don't have to, but that little arm squeeze as

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Speaker 5: it or can go a long way. And I know

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Speaker 5: for me, when someone does it for me, it's like

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Speaker 5: getting your tank filled.

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Speaker 3: Small talk does a body good. You'll be happy to

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Speaker 3: hear that. Small talk doesn't even have to be actual talk.

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Speaker 3: Will delve further into this later on, but a study

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Speaker 3: co authored by psychology professor Elizabeth Dunn from the University

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Speaker 3: of British Columbia discovered that even non verbal interactions with

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Speaker 3: strangers like smiling and making eye contact resulted in feelings

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Speaker 3: of belonging and increased happiness. And do you know what

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Speaker 3: increased feelings of belonging and happiness lead to a longer life.

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Speaker 3: Longevity is having a moment, hopefully a long moment, because

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Speaker 3: as it turns out the majority of us are searching

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Speaker 3: for that magical formula to keep us on this rock

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Speaker 3: a little long.

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Speaker 1: Which I'm personally not as concerned with because I believe

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Speaker 1: in past and future lives, so I know there's more

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Speaker 1: And where this came from.

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Speaker 3: Casey careful And while diet, exercise, and environment have long

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Speaker 3: been known factors towards longevity, Susan Pinker also says that

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Speaker 3: social interaction, including small talk, is the number one secret

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Speaker 3: to living a longer life, number one, number one and

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Speaker 3: yet not to be a bummer, but as a society

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Speaker 3: we have never been more siloed off and isolated. And

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Speaker 3: apparently while our collective mental health has been fraying for

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Speaker 3: a while, it got so much worse in twenty twenty.

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Speaker 3: Here's doctor Keltner, professor of psychology and the host of

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Speaker 3: the podcast The Science of Happiness.

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Speaker 6: COVID and the pandemic and the lockdown and hours on

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Speaker 6: screens in zoom and not seeing somebody's physical body and

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Speaker 6: making eye contact and touch and so forth, has I

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Speaker 6: think the most arming effects that it has had in

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Speaker 6: addition to like stunting academic growth and young kids, which

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Speaker 6: is now well documented, is it has stunted our emotional

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Speaker 6: connections with others. Right, and this is just the very

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Speaker 6: fabric of our social lives is to laugh with each other,

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Speaker 6: and cry with each other, and touch each other, hug

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Speaker 6: each other, high five each other.

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Speaker 1: News flash, screens are bad for you now. Normally, Jess,

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Speaker 1: I gotta tell you something. I am terrified of teens.

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Speaker 3: Oh me too.

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Speaker 1: I don't like.

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Speaker 3: Them, especially on Halloween.

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Speaker 1: But in this case I feel bad for them because

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Speaker 1: the increase in screen time for everyone seems to have

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Speaker 1: affected teens the worst. Common Sense Media did a study

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Speaker 1: with the University of Michigan in twenty twenty three which

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Speaker 1: found that on a typical day, half of US teens

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Speaker 1: receive almost two hundred and fifty notifications on their phones,

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Speaker 1: about a quarter of them during the school day.

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Speaker 3: That's about as many texts as I said my husband today. Sadly,

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Speaker 3: many of them remain unread.

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Speaker 1: Just text me, Jess. You know I'll hit you right back,

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Speaker 1: unless I'm disassociating in the bargain isle of a TJ

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Speaker 1: Max looking for oversized undies.

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Speaker 3: You can never have too many. But this is an

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Speaker 3: incredibly serious problem for young people. According to The Wall

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Speaker 3: Street Journal, some colleges are actually teaching classes on small

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Speaker 3: talk because young adults coming out of the pandemic have

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Speaker 3: literally forgotten how to strike up a conversation. Strange case,

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Speaker 3: you and I haven't had any incoming requests to teach

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Speaker 3: any of those courses.

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Speaker 1: Maybe that's because I spent most of my time at

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Speaker 1: NYU's Tiss School of the Arts flopping around on the floor,

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Speaker 1: sucking my thumb and pretending to be a piece of seaweed.

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Speaker 3: You paid one hundred and seventy five thousand dollars for that.

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Speaker 1: Didn't you talk about not getting a return on your investment.

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Speaker 3: It's not just young people who are feeling the effects

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Speaker 3: of this disconnection. Studies show that.

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Speaker 1: You love saying. Studies show don't you?

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Speaker 3: I really do?

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Speaker 1: And I notice you never really follow it up with

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Speaker 1: what studies and where which I respect to continue.

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Speaker 3: Studies show that in twenty twenty three, one in three

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Speaker 3: adults age fifty to eighty reported feeling isolated from others,

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Speaker 3: which contributed to them experiencing fair to poor health. The

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Speaker 3: US Surgeon General has warned against what he calls an

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Speaker 3: epidemic of loneliness.

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Speaker 1: But it's not just screens that are to blame our boss.

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Speaker 1: If anyone can believe it is Malcolm Gladwell, journalist and

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Speaker 1: author of many New York Times bestsellers, including a book

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Speaker 1: called Talking to Strangers. He spoke to us about the

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Speaker 1: hurdles society is up against because of our lack of connection,

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Speaker 1: and how as a culture we've shifted from a front

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Speaker 1: porch to a backyard culture where we frantically build hedges

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Speaker 1: to ensure we will never come into contact with a

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Speaker 1: neighbor as long as we both shall live. I remember

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Speaker 1: when I was little, just people used to do something

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Speaker 1: absolutely horrifying and pop by, Yes, just pop on over unannounced,

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Speaker 1: and this felt welcome and fun. But today you'd be

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Speaker 1: locked up for that.

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Speaker 3: Growing up in New Jersey, my family used to eat

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Speaker 3: dinner on our front porch and chat with every stranger

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Speaker 3: who's strolled by. We are still close those friends, with

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Speaker 3: all of our neighbors past and present, but these days

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Speaker 3: we build up these hedges and hope to never get

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Speaker 3: even so much as a glimpse of another person, and

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Speaker 3: God forbids someone should knock on the door. Whenever my

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Speaker 3: daughter and I hear a sudden knock, we both freeze

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Speaker 3: and pray the offender will just go away, unless, of course,

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Speaker 3: it's an Amazon driver, and then I want all the

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Speaker 3: things I bought to fill the agonizing void of loneliness.

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Speaker 1: This is a true story. My friend, the comedy writer

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Speaker 1: Gary Jeannetti, once moved after his husband said hello to

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Speaker 1: a neighbor one high and he was gone. That's how

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Speaker 1: much he dreaded interacting with them. They moved.

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Speaker 3: Our world seems to be moving at the speed of light.

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Speaker 3: We're overwhelmed. We're overscheduled and overworked, which only makes my

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Speaker 3: adhd worse. Wait, what were we talking about, I don't know,

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Speaker 3: Oh right, we're moving too quickly. The idea of stopping

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Speaker 3: to chat with another person often feels inconceivable with all

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Speaker 3: we have on our plates. People feel like they don't

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Speaker 3: have time for the tiny pleasantries we also desperately need.

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Speaker 1: Malcolm also talked about another more surprising culprit for the

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Speaker 1: death of small talk.

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Speaker 2: The biggest blow to.

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Speaker 7: Small talk of our generation was the decline of smoking.

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Speaker 7: For two hundred years, casual conversation was organized around cigarettes,

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Speaker 7: and cigarettes are perfect for this. They are an opportunity

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Speaker 7: to go up to someone, you can share a cigarette,

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Speaker 7: you can like this cigarette and somebody to do with

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Speaker 7: your hands, which you need to do. But more than that,

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Speaker 7: it allows for pauses. Right, if I want to pause,

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Speaker 7: I stop and I take a puff of my cigarette, right,

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Speaker 7: and your mouth is occupied. You can't talk right, and

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Speaker 7: the other person is not expecting you to talk because

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Speaker 7: no one talks when this winter pulling on a cigarette.

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Speaker 7: So it's perfect you get so you can build in.

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Speaker 7: You can build your conversation around this kind of rock and.

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Speaker 1: It kind of lowers anxiety a little too, when you're

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Speaker 1: pulling in and you can face outward and not have

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Speaker 1: to be like staring at a top.

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Speaker 3: We lost the problem and it's sexy, and it's sexy.

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Speaker 7: And it's sexy. The clateral damage from the ending of

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Speaker 7: smoking is a is really quite considerable. I felt a

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Speaker 7: lot about this. Actually, yeah, we gained something immeasurable, which

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Speaker 7: was seven more years of life on average, but we

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Speaker 7: did lose all not as much as we gained, but still, like,

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Speaker 7: it's no use pretending this was a cost free exercise

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Speaker 7: in public health advancement.

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Speaker 3: So Malcolm saying the very thing that was killing us

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Speaker 3: was also keeping us alive. Yep, And now I want

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Speaker 3: a cigarette, you guys, can't smoke in here, Nathan.

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Speaker 1: We know I was joking, Nathan, so ess we now

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Speaker 1: know that small talk may be the key to keeping

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Speaker 1: us alive. So why aren't people doing it?

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Speaker 3: The answer is simple, people hate it.