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Speaker 1: Does it scare you that it's over? Governor's race ends and.

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Speaker 2: I gotta sell by day. I'm a milk cart man.

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Speaker 1: My whole childhood is my side. The Republicans were the suits,

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Speaker 1: right we flipped. Now the Democrats are the suits of

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Speaker 1: the schools and the establishment. Why are we bombing boats

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Speaker 1: in the Caribbean? Why are we bulldozing the East Wing?

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Speaker 1: Why do you care so much about your peace pride?

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Speaker 1: They three trips overseas and no trips to Red America.

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Speaker 1: Trump is for once making a normal politician mistake. Hey, Tim,

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Speaker 1: thank you so much for taking the time.

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Speaker 2: By the way, and I know it's taking the time

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Speaker 2: because as seen on TV, Tim Miller, every time I

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Speaker 2: turn on cable, how many hits a day do you

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Speaker 2: do with MS? How many? Oh?

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Speaker 1: I'm doing more bullwerd YouTube pits than MS too. I'm

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Speaker 1: just grinding. This is a content grind, all right, I'm

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Speaker 1: down here in the content minds. I'm just shoveling away. Okay,

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Speaker 1: Now it's not you know, there's harder jobs. You know,

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to shoveling coal. But it's it's you know,

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Speaker 1: it's a grind.

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Speaker 2: So what is it? I mean? Seriously in terms of

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Speaker 2: content now, in order to stay relevant and sort of

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Speaker 2: stay in, you know, just the stream of consciousness. I mean,

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Speaker 2: give us a sense of your day. What's your you

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Speaker 2: wake up, what's your morning routine? How does it start?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, part of the reason why you see me

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Speaker 1: a lot is you're on Pacific time. I don't do

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Speaker 1: any morning MS MS now. We're coming it ms now

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Speaker 1: now because I tape the Daily Board pod every day

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Speaker 1: at nine Central, and so luckily my husband's taking my

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Speaker 1: daughter to school most days. He's gone this week, so

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Speaker 1: I gotta, I gotta. I'm like reading Twitter, reading acts

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Speaker 1: and driving on doing unsafe driving to school this week.

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Speaker 1: But uh, you know, usually like seven to nine, I'm

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Speaker 1: just seeing everything that's out there, reading, consuming tape the

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Speaker 1: pod at nine every day and then it's like off

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Speaker 1: to the races.

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Speaker 2: Man.

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Speaker 1: I'm like just just either consuming other people's stuff or

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Speaker 1: taping stuff until the evening. I do a little parenting

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Speaker 1: after that, you know, this little child time, and after

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Speaker 1: dinner she goes to bed, and then I sit in

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Speaker 1: front of a TV. My husband usually does a weave

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Speaker 1: gummy and puts on something he likes or if basketball

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Speaker 1: is on, uput on basketball, and then I'm just like multitasking,

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Speaker 1: double screening, a little TV, mostly mostly preparing for the

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Speaker 1: next day.

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Speaker 2: What's your when you prepare for the morning the morning up?

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Speaker 2: What are you reading? Are you reading the Economists or

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Speaker 2: is it just Wall Street journal blogs? What do you?

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Speaker 2: What do you? What's your morning read?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good question. I mean I do. I

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Speaker 1: do all the newsletters just to see what everything you're

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Speaker 1: about to hear me being a former Republican right now,

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Speaker 1: you know who's good at still even at this day

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Speaker 1: and age is Drudge. Drudge tells you what is out there,

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Speaker 1: and I like and it's just a good way for

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Speaker 1: me to like because then I'm reading all the different

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Speaker 1: outlets because because he's already curated that ship for me.

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Speaker 1: So shout out to Drudge. But you know, I read

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Speaker 1: the poltico ACXS morning newsletters, all the other ones that

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Speaker 1: people do. Ours Bowlarks morning newsletter is good and uh.

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Speaker 1: And you know, I'm also like trying to listen to

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Speaker 1: like what other like newsmakers were doing, you know, if

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Speaker 1: you were doing somebody else's show, like I go to

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Speaker 1: listen to that you're showing two X speed, you know,

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Speaker 1: so you're a chipmunk voice. Try to hear what you like,

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Speaker 1: what you guys are talking about, Like what the other

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Speaker 1: big podcast interviews were from the day before. I want

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Speaker 1: to hear other people were talking about whatever my guest

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Speaker 1: has done recently. I'm listening to what they're doing, so

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Speaker 1: and then I'm also like Maga, Like I'm deep in

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Speaker 1: the Maga verse. I kind of switch back and forth.

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Speaker 1: Right now, I'm on to ban I do banning. Tim

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Speaker 1: Dillon's podcast Candice is kind of my little treat because

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Speaker 1: I just want to hear, you know, which French Israeli

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Speaker 1: assassins are coming together this week? Who else do I do? Sometimes?

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Speaker 1: Patrick Bett David, you gotta know what the Maga freaks

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Speaker 1: are talking about too.

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Speaker 2: No, I love that. What about are you a Fox?

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Speaker 2: I mean a nighttime when your husband's on that gummy

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Speaker 2: and there's no Denver Nugget game. I mean you're flipping

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Speaker 2: over to to.

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Speaker 1: You know, I don't. I don't subject my family to

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Speaker 1: this stuff, like just for their mental health and for

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Speaker 1: the sake of everybody's Like, I don't watch a ton

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Speaker 1: of cable because you know that's on the TV. It's

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Speaker 1: like usually it's tough. That's in my ear. So like

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Speaker 1: that's why I'm more podcast focused, Like I will, you know,

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Speaker 1: there's Fox clips going around on social I'll watch those.

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Speaker 1: I'm a Fox guy on the plane, So people sitting

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Speaker 1: next to me on the plane, if they don't recognize me,

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Speaker 1: they might think I'm a maga because that's the planes

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Speaker 1: and hotels. Is when I get my Fox, I can

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Speaker 1: kind of binge that way see what those guys are

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Speaker 1: talking about. And that's about my only, my only Fox exposure.

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Speaker 2: What I'm curious just in terms of the Bulwark itself,

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Speaker 2: I mean, imagine when how long ago did you guys

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Speaker 2: start the bull Wark? How old is it now?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it started as like a literally a side hustle

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Speaker 1: back about God six years ago now coming up on

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Speaker 1: the twenty in twenty nineteen, basically a year before twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty election, and the Weekly Standard is that old kind

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Speaker 1: of neo kon magazine got shut down. The owner of

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Speaker 1: Philly in Shoots was not happy that Bill Crystal and

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Speaker 1: Jolie Sykes and some others were were speaking out against Trump,

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Speaker 1: you know, and they wanted to get and good graces

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Speaker 1: of Trump, and so they shut down the magazine and

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Speaker 1: my colleague now Sarah Longwell, was trying to start something

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Speaker 1: new and it wasn't really getting off the ground. And

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Speaker 1: then and then when the Weekly Standard shut down, she

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Speaker 1: grabbed a couple of those guys and asked them to

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Speaker 1: help her start something. Then me and her world friends,

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Speaker 1: she asked me if I could, I could also help out.

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Speaker 1: A couple months later, and so it started then, and

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Speaker 1: I think that all of us kind of thought it

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Speaker 1: was a thing that we do to the twenty twenty election.

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Speaker 1: It was just something like, hey, we want to have

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Speaker 1: a home for never Trumper's, you know, somewhere where they

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Speaker 1: could gather do news and commentary. Maybe we could have

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Speaker 1: a platform to from our perspective, explain why and people

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Speaker 1: should move away again from Trump. And this was so

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Speaker 1: during the Biden Biden Trump first election and it just

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Speaker 1: like took off by accident. And this is going to

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Speaker 1: feel like a humble brag, but like we weren't even

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Speaker 1: really trying to create a media company, but it just

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Speaker 1: really connected with people. I think it was when you

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Speaker 1: hear from people, it's mostly that like it just felt

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Speaker 1: like we weren't shitting them, you know, we aren't. We

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Speaker 1: weren't We're not like a typical political pundit. I'm not

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Speaker 1: trying to looking for my next job, you know, all

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Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. The fact that we were former

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Speaker 1: Republicans and we were kind of without a home gave

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Speaker 1: us like a freedom that allowed us to be a

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Speaker 1: little bit more blunt, I think than what you see

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Speaker 1: from other stuff out there. And and the audience led

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Speaker 1: us basically, but like took off and and it went

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Speaker 1: from being a side hustle to a real company, you know,

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Speaker 1: a couple of years in and we uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: kind of flipped the switch from it being like a

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Speaker 1: nonprofit thing that we were doing because we wanted to

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Speaker 1: speak out against Trump to an actual media effort.

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Speaker 2: And when you were there, were you sort of wearing

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Speaker 2: a couple of hats? Were you still doing consulting? Were

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Speaker 2: you still doing all the usual work?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, initially I was still doing consulting. I was doing

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Speaker 1: still MSS, but less I was like a guest person

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Speaker 1: on the circus, So I was doing some media. So

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Speaker 1: but I had some PR clients and then I had

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Speaker 1: some political clients. Like, like I said, it wasn't like

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Speaker 1: a tradition. I didn't really see myself as a media

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Speaker 1: person or a journalist at the time. I you know,

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Speaker 1: in twenty twenty. In additionally the bullwork, I was doing

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Speaker 1: Republican Voters against Trump, which was like a full time job.

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Speaker 1: I was like, it was a political I was a

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Speaker 1: political director of that, and we did a bunch of

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Speaker 1: that was one of a grassroots effort to get videos

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Speaker 1: from people who used to be Republicans to explain why

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Speaker 1: they weren't voting for Trump in twenty twenty. And so,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's basically after that election. I can't remember

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Speaker 1: the exact timeline, but a little while when we realized

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Speaker 1: it was resonating with people that I just said, no, okay,

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Speaker 1: I'm done. So I got rid of all my PR stuff,

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Speaker 1: stopped doing all, you know, and just you know, I

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Speaker 1: got some good advice form a mentor who's just like,

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Speaker 1: you can't do both well, like he got to pick

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Speaker 1: a route, and so you know, I kind of myself

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Speaker 1: and others of the Bulwark sort of decided, okay, we're

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Speaker 1: going to lean into this, and I couldn't be happier. Man.

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Speaker 1: I got to tell you, every time PR flax sends

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Speaker 1: me a pitch, like I want you to get my

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Speaker 1: boss on your podcast. I feel bad. I just it

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Speaker 1: just warms my soul. I'm like, this was this could

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Speaker 1: have been me. There's an alternate timeline where I'm begging,

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm begging Gavin. I'm like, hey, well you

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Speaker 1: have my client, the CEO is just trying to do

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Speaker 1: thought leadership. Well you have them on the Gavin Newsom show,

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Speaker 1: you know. And and so I'm happy about that life switch.

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Speaker 1: It's been good to me, you know what it was.

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Speaker 2: But when when did that switch happen with you? I mean,

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Speaker 2: obviously you grew up, and I don't know if some

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Speaker 2: of the origin stories are true that you literally got

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Speaker 2: goosebumps watching a Bob Dole speech. That's true, by the way,

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Speaker 2: this of course you probably said it because no one

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Speaker 2: has ever uttered those words in history.

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Speaker 1: So that's true. Good OPO. One of the other things

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Speaker 1: in my origin story is I started a Republican APO

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Speaker 1: Research FORERV, and that's the dark part of the origin story.

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Speaker 1: So we don't need to go through that whole timeline.

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Speaker 1: But that's good OPO on me. I know it when

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Speaker 1: I see it. It was true. Man, I look, I

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Speaker 1: told that story. I think in part because I think

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Speaker 1: that everybody that gets you know, there's a reason that

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Speaker 1: I think people are cynical about politics is because a

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Speaker 1: lot of people in politics are cynical, you know, and

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Speaker 1: they become cynical over time. But pretty much everybody that

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Speaker 1: gets into politics got into it because at the start

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Speaker 1: there was like a little ember of something that was real.

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Speaker 1: And like I was a little bit for Bob Dole.

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Speaker 1: For me, I mean, I'm a little cheeky, but I

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Speaker 1: did get I did get goosebumps watching Bob Dole. I

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Speaker 1: do remember that. And uh, but you know, I believed

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Speaker 1: in like the America is a shining city on the hill.

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Speaker 1: We like, uh, free markets and free people and you know,

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Speaker 1: back to back World War two champ put World War

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Speaker 1: champs and all of that. Like I believe that as

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Speaker 1: a young Republican like I was into that part of

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Speaker 1: that America is great and that we should try to

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Speaker 1: live up to the ideals that the country has espoused.

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Speaker 1: And Bob Dole did that in his speech, and so

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Speaker 1: did all the Republicans in their convention speeches that I

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Speaker 1: watched as a kid and then growing up. And I

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Speaker 1: think that to me was the thing about Trump was

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Speaker 1: like it brought back a little bit of my earnestness,

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Speaker 1: because you know, you get into politics, you start working

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Speaker 1: for candidates, you start spinning on behalf of them, you

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Speaker 1: start bullshitting on behalf of them. You care more about winning,

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Speaker 1: you know, losing the game of it, than you care

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Speaker 1: about while you got into it. I think this happened

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Speaker 1: to a lot of people, and Trump got in there,

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Speaker 1: and I was like, wait a minute, all the things,

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Speaker 1: all the reasons that got that I was earnest about

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Speaker 1: this at the start. He's not for any of those things.

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Speaker 1: He's shitting on all of those things, you know, And

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Speaker 1: I think that in suddenly that was I hate to

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Speaker 1: give Trump credit or anything like that was like a

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Speaker 1: gift to me, to I kind of get me. I

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Speaker 1: think back focused on the things that I actually, like,

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Speaker 1: genuinely cared about, rather than like the stupid politics of politics.

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Speaker 2: And your politics were aligned in that spirit sort of

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Speaker 2: compassionate conservatism, rallying the armies of compassion, breaking the toll

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Speaker 2: booth down in the middle class, sort of Bushisms, but

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Speaker 2: with Jeb Bush formally with huntsmen and some goodnatorial campaigns

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Speaker 2: Nikki Haley and others. So you know, was it I mean,

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Speaker 2: was it the escalator and Trump or did it come

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Speaker 2: after the escalator in twenty fifteen and Trump where you

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Speaker 2: started listening to this or was it those debates with

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Speaker 2: Jeb and where you like, who the hell is this reck?

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Speaker 2: Who's this d Rex?

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Speaker 1: God? I wanted to get up there and debate and

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Speaker 1: to debate him, you know, I know honestly, man, this

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Speaker 1: is why like sometimes Dan, Democrats or liberals or whatever

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Speaker 1: will come up to me and be like, thank you

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Speaker 1: for doing this, for your courage and standing out, Like

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Speaker 1: it wasn't that for me. It just wasn't a close call.

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Speaker 1: Like I didn't like Trump from the second. I didn't

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Speaker 1: like him back in twenty twelve. You mentioned the Huntsman campaign.

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Speaker 1: Remember in twenty twelve, Romney went to Vegas to get

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Speaker 1: Trump's endorsement. I'm with Huntsmen at the time. I end

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Speaker 1: up being with Romney in the general, but I'm a

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Speaker 1: Huntsman in the primary and we're mocking him. We mocked

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Speaker 1: him both internally and publicly. To public, I was like,

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Speaker 1: this is embarrassing, Like why are you doing this? Like

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Speaker 1: this guy is a phony, he's a racist, and you

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Speaker 1: know we shouldn't be coddling up to him, and so

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Speaker 1: I didn't like him way before the escalator and like

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Speaker 1: and it went, and his whole campaign to me was

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Speaker 1: just an affront to everything that I shared about. I

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Speaker 1: didn't here's an admission against interests because I'm so be

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Speaker 1: like a political analyst. I didn't believe he could win

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Speaker 1: up until the minute he did. I just did it.

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Speaker 1: I even thought in the primary. I was like, eventually,

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Speaker 1: when it gets down to Trump against Cruise or Trump

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Speaker 1: against Rubio, people will come to their senses. I just

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Speaker 1: I misjudged him totally as a political force initially, I mean,

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Speaker 1: no longer obviously, but I know he was. I found

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Speaker 1: him totally repulsive in every level from the second I

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Speaker 1: saw him.

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Speaker 2: And so it begs then the question that you in

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Speaker 2: some respect to answer. There wasn't a moment in that

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Speaker 2: campaign then where you said this guy's gonna win. I mean,

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Speaker 2: you kept I imagine seeing those moments like there's no,

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Speaker 2: he's not a war hero, comments McCain. There's no way

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Speaker 2: this guy gets through until he did.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, No, I mean no, I would say, yeah, I

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Speaker 1: guess I would say this, and I knew he was

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Speaker 1: going to beat us, like October. So don't get me wrong,

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Speaker 1: I didn't think Trump was a total joke, Like I

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Speaker 1: just I felt like and I knew that the Republican

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Speaker 1: Party was a base of support for him. I just

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Speaker 1: didn't know if it was fifty plus one, you know.

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Speaker 1: And to me, the moment actually was after Jeb had

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Speaker 1: already lost and I was working on an anti Trump

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Speaker 1: superpack at the time. And you remember that debate with

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Speaker 1: Rubio where Rubio like makes fun of him and says

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Speaker 1: he's got small hands, but Rubyo basically says he has

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Speaker 1: a small dick, the current Secretary of State. And I

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Speaker 1: was like, I watched that debate and I thought, Okay,

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Speaker 1: this is the moment that it turns for him, right

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Speaker 1: Like Trump has lost the alpha. People will be like, okay,

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Speaker 1: we can't go with this con We'll pivot, you know,

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Speaker 1: the voters will pivot back. And the opposite happened. Rubio

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Speaker 1: ends apologizing to him, Trump gains more. And for me,

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Speaker 1: it was at that moment I was like, oh man,

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Speaker 1: he's going to win the primary for sure, and the general.

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Speaker 1: I again, and he did lose the popular vote in

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Speaker 1: the general. I think that the thing that I missed

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Speaker 1: looking back because there was never a moment I thought

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Speaker 1: Hillary's gonna win. I'll just admitut it. The thing that

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Speaker 1: I missed is that I thought that there's always this

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Speaker 1: thing I went back to in twenty twelve after Romney lost,

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Speaker 1: where Stuart Stevens, who's a fellow never Trumper, was Romneys

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Speaker 1: chief strategist. He said during our kind of autopsy process,

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Speaker 1: he's like, look, Romney got the same amount of the

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Speaker 1: white vote that that Reagan got in his landslide election

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Speaker 1: and he lost, and he's like, there's not much that

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Speaker 1: much more juice to squeeze out of the white vote.

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Speaker 1: Like we're doing We're maximum we're maximizing. We got to

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Speaker 1: do better with with with voters of color. And so

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Speaker 1: I just kind of thought that, like Trump was never

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Speaker 1: going to be able to get, you know, enough vote

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Speaker 1: from minority communities. And little did we know in twenty

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Speaker 1: sixteen that the white vote we weren't even close to

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Speaker 1: the mass. Like Trump got a working class white vote

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Speaker 1: that was just off the charts, and he just totally

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Speaker 1: changed how you know, the the coalitions and and then

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Speaker 1: obviously in twenty four we could talk about this, he

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Speaker 1: ends up doing better with working class black and brown

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Speaker 1: voters do. But you know, so for me like that,

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Speaker 1: I just I just misjudged, you know, that whether there'd

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Speaker 1: be enough votes for somebody like him, This total mistake.

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Speaker 2: I want to go back to his appeal and try

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Speaker 2: to get a little forensics in terms of your own

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Speaker 2: deeper relationship to understanding the why he's he's as successful

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Speaker 2: as he is. But I'm curious. You know, you wrote

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Speaker 2: a book, best selling book, and you you it was

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Speaker 2: a humorous book. It was very insightful book. It was

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Speaker 2: universally praised for being just self critical and honest and

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Speaker 2: reflective in terms of just the mask that so many

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Speaker 2: people put on, and a lot of people's faces grew

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Speaker 2: into him. Yours didn't necessarily grow into it. You you

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Speaker 2: you felt some complicity as a Republican, but you started

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Speaker 2: to recognize these larger trend lines and in these deviations

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Speaker 2: from sort of traditional conservatism and the like. But walk

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Speaker 2: us through that, just I mean, I know this is

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Speaker 2: old territory for you, and I don't want to pave

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Speaker 2: over the cowpath over and over on this, but but

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Speaker 2: I am curious just your own reflections on just why

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Speaker 2: others decided to sell I don't want to say it,

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Speaker 2: but I got some needpads behind me, the Trump the

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Speaker 2: Trump's signature, sary needpads. Why they decided just to bend

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Speaker 2: the knee. Sell out is you wrote about it, but

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Speaker 2: maybe you could eliminate us a little bit.

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Speaker 1: More sure, And I focused on the DC political class.

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Speaker 1: So answer that question based on that. I do think

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Speaker 1: it's totally different if you're analyzing voters, like why did

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Speaker 1: voter like where euro compoters go for him? Like why

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Speaker 1: did DC political class get put on the k e pats?

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Speaker 1: And I think back to one of the conversations I

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Speaker 1: had with like a consultant for the book, and he

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Speaker 1: wasn't one of the main characters in the books. He

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Speaker 1: didn't want to go on the record, he's on background.

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Speaker 1: But I still did a bunch of those interviews anyway,

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Speaker 1: just because, like you know, as soon as you learn things,

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Speaker 1: when people are just telling you the truth, if they

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Speaker 1: don't think their name is going to be on it.

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Speaker 1: And he said, he said, do you look man, And

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Speaker 1: he's like, my I'm doing ads for Republican candidates. My

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Speaker 1: wife is mad at me. All my friends think, you know,

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Speaker 1: all her friends think I'm a racist, Like it's creating

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Speaker 1: problems in our life, like everybody's shit talking us every

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Speaker 1: you know, and and he's like, you know, I feel

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Speaker 1: like I know he's a clown, but the only choice

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Speaker 1: I have is to like look at the one or

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Speaker 1: two things that I agree with them on and like

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Speaker 1: really hold on to those and ride heard with him.

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Speaker 1: And I felt like that was like the most revealing

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Speaker 1: conversation I had because it's like pretty embarrassing thing to say.

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Speaker 1: Actually he said that. I was kind of like, you

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Speaker 1: realize that I'm still going to know you said this

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Speaker 1: even though I'm not going to put your name on it.

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Speaker 1: But anyway, I thought it was honest, and it was

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Speaker 1: an honest moment. I think that there's just a club.

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Speaker 1: You get into a club in DC, and you don't

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Speaker 1: you don't want to have to admit that, like your

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Speaker 1: side is the bad side. You know, you want to

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Speaker 1: still have you want you want to still have career.

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Speaker 1: You know, part of its money, of course, part of

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Speaker 1: its access to power. Part of it's the feeling of relevance.

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Speaker 1: I think, particularly for kind of men, their job is

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Speaker 1: so tied to kind of their significance as a person,

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Speaker 1: you know, and their their self esteem, and I think

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Speaker 1: like that that was it. It's more of just like

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Speaker 1: a cultural element of d C where it was like

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Speaker 1: it was easier for people to say I'm going to

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Speaker 1: go along with something that I know is bad at

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Speaker 1: some level than it is to say, Okay, I screwed up.

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Speaker 1: I was wrong. Or is it that it is to say, oh, man,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to go out into the wilderness. I'm going

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Speaker 1: to go take a job, a different job. You know

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Speaker 1: that that makes that is less important seeming right, Like,

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Speaker 1: I think that that was a lot of it. And

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Speaker 1: you see this with the politicians and Washington too, you know,

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Speaker 1: like they they just want to be in the mix.

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Speaker 1: Like that is the phrase I kept coming back to

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Speaker 1: more than anything. I think that every a lot of

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Speaker 1: different careers have different issues. You know, if you're in

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Speaker 1: Hollywood you want to be famous, if you're in New

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Speaker 1: York and finance you want to have money. In politics,

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Speaker 1: all of us we have it, man, I have it.

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Speaker 1: Like is this kind of sense of I want to

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Speaker 1: be in the mix. I want to feel like I'm

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Speaker 1: mad or you know, and and sometimes that's more important.

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Speaker 1: I don't know what you think about this, even than

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Speaker 1: like having power, because like having power has like responsibility

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Speaker 1: associated with it, like being around power, and like being

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Speaker 1: being able to feel like you're you know, sort of

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Speaker 1: bs in with people and you know the inside scoop

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Speaker 1: that's easy, Like that's that's feeling important without having responsibility.

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Speaker 1: And to me, you know, there are a lot of

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Speaker 1: different reaces for different people, but that's the one that

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Speaker 1: I think describes why most of these guys stuck around

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Speaker 1: with him.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I remight have just in terms of just the

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Speaker 2: parents of power you and having power of Hovelle who

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Speaker 2: said that when you became president Czechoslovakia it de geniused him.

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Speaker 2: He talked about the constraints of office and that at

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Speaker 2: the peak of his influence. Uh, he had the kind

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Speaker 2: of influence that Gandhi had and never served today as

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Speaker 2: prime minister, king never served today as president, and that

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Speaker 2: was moral authority. And of course time in jail. He

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Speaker 2: talked about fact he was more powerful in many respects

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Speaker 2: in jail than he was as president of his reflective country.

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Speaker 2: I'm taking liberties here, but it's in the spirit of

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Speaker 2: what you're saying in terms of just being.

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Speaker 1: In the one example. This will resonate with you. But

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Speaker 1: like I don't know. I think about There's a quote

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Speaker 1: from Chris Christy was on like a different podcast. I

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Speaker 1: was listening to him and he's like, you leave the

430
00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:57,760
Speaker 1: governor's office and the lights turn off and nobody's calling

431
00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:00,280
Speaker 1: you anymore. And he's and he's talking about it is

432
00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:03,000
Speaker 1: like as he's describing, and I think he wants sympathy,

433
00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:04,919
Speaker 1: but it sounds kind of like sad. It's just like

434
00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:07,000
Speaker 1: he's saying, like, this is the hardest thing I had

435
00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:08,359
Speaker 1: to deal with. I had to deal with all this stuff.

436
00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:10,639
Speaker 1: Like the most hard thing was like I left drum

437
00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:12,879
Speaker 1: thlocket and nobody called me. And I think that all

438
00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:14,520
Speaker 1: those guys in the Senate, in the House and women,

439
00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:17,800
Speaker 1: they look at Cheney and Adam Kinsinger and some of

440
00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:20,560
Speaker 1: your listeners that look at them and say, man, how

441
00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:22,280
Speaker 1: that is so great. They'll be able to tell their

442
00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:23,840
Speaker 1: kids that they did this great thing and they have

443
00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:26,240
Speaker 1: all this recognition. But the guys in the Hill look

444
00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:28,359
Speaker 1: at and they say, what does Liz Cheney do in

445
00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:31,639
Speaker 1: the morning, Like is she doing She's just being a

446
00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:34,320
Speaker 1: mother and a great Like she doesn't have a job. Now,

447
00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:37,880
Speaker 1: nobody's calling her and nobody's you know that, like that

448
00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:41,920
Speaker 1: like feeling of importance is the ticket for a lot

449
00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:43,240
Speaker 1: of these guys.

450
00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:45,520
Speaker 2: It so resonates with me. I'll never forget the first

451
00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:47,520
Speaker 2: speach I gave when I was mayor elect, and I

452
00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:49,760
Speaker 2: did the same as governor elect. I said, I'm the

453
00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:53,040
Speaker 2: future ex mayor at San Francisco. I said the same thing,

454
00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:56,760
Speaker 2: a future ex governor. Having that mindset of the temporary

455
00:20:56,840 --> 00:20:58,760
Speaker 2: nature of this, but also the freedom that comes from

456
00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:00,720
Speaker 2: that and not trying to hold on to that and

457
00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:03,320
Speaker 2: become someone you're not. It's so, I mean, I've seen that.

458
00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:06,240
Speaker 2: I've seen It's interesting, Chris said that, Governor Christie, but

459
00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:09,199
Speaker 2: I've seen that over all my life. I've seen that,

460
00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:12,639
Speaker 2: And you're right, it's there is a you develop a

461
00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:14,720
Speaker 2: little empathy for it. I know people call it pathetic,

462
00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:17,520
Speaker 2: et cetera, but it is what it is. And you're right.

463
00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:19,680
Speaker 2: People are, you know, punch drunk there. They live way

464
00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:23,240
Speaker 2: past their prime and they're just desperate to be something,

465
00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:26,040
Speaker 2: and they've forgotten that it's not about being something.

466
00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:27,800
Speaker 1: About going to scare you a little bit? Does it

467
00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:31,200
Speaker 1: scare you that it's over governor's race ends? And yeah,

468
00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:31,600
Speaker 1: you know you.

469
00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:34,120
Speaker 2: Got to I gotta sell by date. I'm a milk

470
00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:36,679
Speaker 2: carton man. I mean, I'm well aware of it. And

471
00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:38,760
Speaker 2: everyone's talking about who's the next governor. You're like, I

472
00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:41,560
Speaker 2: don't want to talk about it because it's honestly, it's hard.

473
00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:44,000
Speaker 2: It's like, give jesus, I'm still governor. I'm still but

474
00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:46,160
Speaker 2: I had the gift and I don't want to get

475
00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:48,080
Speaker 2: too much into me here at all into me. But

476
00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:51,160
Speaker 2: the gift was having gone through this as an ex mayor.

477
00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:54,800
Speaker 2: And I'll never forget. I mean literally walking downstairs as

478
00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:57,240
Speaker 2: everyone was walking upstairs, all the press and everybody else,

479
00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:01,119
Speaker 2: including ninety percent of my old staff for the new mayor. Uh,

480
00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:04,400
Speaker 2: and they're swearing in. It was like no one cared. Literally,

481
00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:08,360
Speaker 2: game over. They care. You thought they cared about what

482
00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:12,280
Speaker 2: you thought two days prior two days later. Yeah, don't matter,

483
00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:16,000
Speaker 2: which proves that you know your status today. You know,

484
00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:18,320
Speaker 2: a little bit of humility, a little bit of grace.

485
00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:22,639
Speaker 2: It's the desk, it's the phone. It ain't about you, brother, Uh,

486
00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:25,119
Speaker 2: you know, and and you come and go, you.

487
00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:28,639
Speaker 1: Know, yeah, and that's it. You want. I feel like

488
00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:30,480
Speaker 1: people want something. When they asked you about this wire,

489
00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:32,679
Speaker 1: Republicans went along with them. Something a little deeper than that,

490
00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:35,600
Speaker 1: because it like feels so shallow. That's like, really, that's it.

491
00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:37,920
Speaker 1: They just want to They just want to feel important

492
00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:40,440
Speaker 1: and get phone calls and go on Air Force one.

493
00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:43,360
Speaker 1: And it's like, yeah, that's what it is for most

494
00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:43,560
Speaker 1: of them.

495
00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:46,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's a it should be. I'm with you,

496
00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:48,400
Speaker 2: And I think the people that thrive are the ones

497
00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:50,840
Speaker 2: that have a sense of meaning, purpose, mission, and are

498
00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:54,160
Speaker 2: willing to buck conventional wisdom. Say what they think, take risks,

499
00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:58,800
Speaker 2: learn from their mistakes, make mistakes, be accountable and evolve

500
00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:02,600
Speaker 2: this and grow be human. And I you know, I

501
00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:05,000
Speaker 2: hope politics are starting to reward a little bit of that.

502
00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:08,240
Speaker 2: And it pulls me back. Now do you think part

503
00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:13,359
Speaker 2: of Trump's secret sauce is that perception that I don't

504
00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:16,800
Speaker 2: need this, I'm so rich, I'd rather be golfing. I'm

505
00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:19,239
Speaker 2: doing this for you. How many times he said that

506
00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:22,840
Speaker 2: in debates, so many times he's trying to bloviate, you

507
00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:24,680
Speaker 2: know that he was able to sell that, at least

508
00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:25,119
Speaker 2: to people.

509
00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:28,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, they're coming after me, like I'm the one

510
00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:31,479
Speaker 1: standing between them, coming after you. All that kind of stuff.

511
00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:35,600
Speaker 1: I do. Look, and Trump has a lot of skills.

512
00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:38,280
Speaker 1: You know, I hate to give him any credit for anything,

513
00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:40,560
Speaker 1: but like he's won twice, so like you have to

514
00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:43,160
Speaker 1: just acknowledge it, right and say what can we learn

515
00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:45,120
Speaker 1: from it? Sometimes I worry that democrats like learn about

516
00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:47,920
Speaker 1: the wrong things because he's like he does so much

517
00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:50,960
Speaker 1: right and it's like what is actually resonating? And and

518
00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:54,720
Speaker 1: I think that like the sense that he's not a

519
00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:59,280
Speaker 1: conventional politician has benefited him so much, and it's just

520
00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:02,520
Speaker 1: and and a lot of it is like, let's the

521
00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:05,159
Speaker 1: old Supreme Court line about porn, like you know, when

522
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:08,320
Speaker 1: you see it, like it's hard. Like sometimes sometimes traditional

523
00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:12,600
Speaker 1: politicians feel like they're not that politician y. Sometimes outsiders

524
00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:15,080
Speaker 1: can sound kind of traditional, right, like it's it's a

525
00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:18,160
Speaker 1: little bit there's not a Trump for a million reasons,

526
00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:20,399
Speaker 1: does not seem like he's a normal politician. And at

527
00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:23,880
Speaker 1: this day and age, we could get a sociologist out

528
00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:25,800
Speaker 1: here or figure out why it is, whether it's our

529
00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:32,200
Speaker 1: phones or globalism or whatever, Like people feel un served

530
00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:38,320
Speaker 1: by traditional politicians. And I could argue against people on that.

531
00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:41,320
Speaker 1: I can yell it's on blue in the face about

532
00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:43,840
Speaker 1: how like yeah, life, it's like there's bad things about

533
00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:47,560
Speaker 1: America today. But like in the grand scheme of things,

534
00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:49,440
Speaker 1: you know, we've been served pretty well by the post

535
00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:51,600
Speaker 1: World War two establishing an order. Like you can make

536
00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:54,320
Speaker 1: all those cases, but it's just like that, people feel

537
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:57,840
Speaker 1: what they feel, and people feel let down by regular politics,

538
00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:02,280
Speaker 1: regular politicians. They're looking for people that have you know,

539
00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:07,840
Speaker 1: that can that present as being outside of that, and

540
00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:10,760
Speaker 1: Trump just does like that's just you know, he just

541
00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:13,040
Speaker 1: has that. He doesn't have to try. He exudes it.

542
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:16,280
Speaker 1: And so I think that's benefited him a great deal

543
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:18,280
Speaker 1: when you look.

544
00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:21,240
Speaker 2: Back, you know, and we speak of learning lessons and

545
00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:25,480
Speaker 2: trying to understand and absorb success and failure in politics,

546
00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:27,880
Speaker 2: do you do you think? I mean, and I don't

547
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:29,560
Speaker 2: want to, we don't have to go too far down

548
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:32,119
Speaker 2: the rabbit hole of the Democratic Party. But you know,

549
00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:35,639
Speaker 2: the forensics around why Harris may have lost, and you know,

550
00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:40,960
Speaker 2: and everybody's theories of the incumbency penalty or interest rates

551
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:43,479
Speaker 2: or it's inflation scars, or is you know, is it

552
00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:48,439
Speaker 2: insufficient you know, differentiation between what was perceived to be

553
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:50,840
Speaker 2: the incumbent Biden or the timing of his departure in

554
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,080
Speaker 2: one hundred and seven days et cetera. Do you look

555
00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:56,880
Speaker 2: back though more deeply that the parties. There's trend lines

556
00:25:57,440 --> 00:25:59,960
Speaker 2: that have become more headlines today that go back down

557
00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:02,840
Speaker 2: kides with our party, with my party, where we've kind

558
00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:05,679
Speaker 2: of lost our way, And what are those issues if

559
00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:07,720
Speaker 2: you if you feel that way, what are the issues

560
00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:11,480
Speaker 2: that you think that you would identify that we should

561
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:12,760
Speaker 2: be more I think sensitive too.

562
00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:15,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, people love hearing from X Republicans tell them what

563
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:17,880
Speaker 1: Democrats should do, but I'm going to do it anyway.

564
00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:22,480
Speaker 1: So there are two things that stand out to me.

565
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:25,920
Speaker 1: Like one is just that I could speak of from

566
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:30,800
Speaker 1: being as a former Republicans, as Democrats ability to compete

567
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:35,000
Speaker 1: in red states. It's just like it doesn't feel like

568
00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:37,639
Speaker 1: Democrats are even trying anymore. And it feels like the

569
00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:41,119
Speaker 1: Democrats got out of touch culturally with what was happening

570
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:46,399
Speaker 1: in red states. And I understand why, you know, I like,

571
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:49,119
Speaker 1: there's a lot of things I think that you know,

572
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:51,920
Speaker 1: you can look at the progress starting with U back

573
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:53,800
Speaker 1: as mayor of San Francisco all the way through that

574
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:56,439
Speaker 1: of Democrats pushing forward gay rights, and like you can

575
00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:59,399
Speaker 1: talk about a lot of stuff and say, hey, you know,

576
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:01,720
Speaker 1: a moment in a racial reckoning and like all you know,

577
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:05,000
Speaker 1: go through all these issues climate dealing with climate change,

578
00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:07,639
Speaker 1: like there are good reasons for all of it, but

579
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:10,320
Speaker 1: eventually you get to a point where it's like, man,

580
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:16,000
Speaker 1: Democrats can't really even compete right now in Iowa, Florida, Texas, Ohio.

581
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:18,760
Speaker 1: How do you how do you become a national party

582
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:22,200
Speaker 1: if you don't have a message for those folks. And

583
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:24,680
Speaker 1: and I think that there's been a lot of complacency

584
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:28,080
Speaker 1: about that, and like rather than just like really accepting

585
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:32,679
Speaker 1: it and saying, hey, you know, what can we do

586
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:34,720
Speaker 1: to communicate to people in these states that we care

587
00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:36,920
Speaker 1: about them and center them and like put them forward.

588
00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:39,639
Speaker 1: You know, I think that's funny. Centering. I just use

589
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:43,280
Speaker 1: this kind of lefty word. And democrats understand it like

590
00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:49,000
Speaker 1: every other context, the importance of of representation and and

591
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:54,359
Speaker 1: and centering of every demographic group except conservative Americans or

592
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:56,959
Speaker 1: men and young men, right, Like, you know, it's like

593
00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:59,040
Speaker 1: you get what you get what you have to show

594
00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:01,359
Speaker 1: up in black communities, You get why you have to

595
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:04,640
Speaker 1: show up to talk to you know, seniors, You get

596
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:07,919
Speaker 1: like you name the group, Okay, we'll show up and

597
00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:11,960
Speaker 1: demonstrate that you care about red America, and I just

598
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:14,440
Speaker 1: like I'm trying to think of who, like Beto was

599
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:16,080
Speaker 1: the last person that I thought like, I actually really

600
00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:19,520
Speaker 1: tried to do that without like losing his center as

601
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:21,359
Speaker 1: a as a liberal or progressive. How are you to

602
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:23,760
Speaker 1: find himself? He showed up and they knew he showed up.

603
00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:26,639
Speaker 1: He tried to make it part of his brand. And

604
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:28,399
Speaker 1: he only lost my three in Texas. It was the

605
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:31,200
Speaker 1: best race in Texas they've had. Say, there's something about that,

606
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:33,760
Speaker 1: just like showing up and trying. The other thing is

607
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:38,640
Speaker 1: just accepting like heterodoxy in general on different stuff. And

608
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:40,760
Speaker 1: this is my big thing, man. Like I got into

609
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,640
Speaker 1: an argument with our friends of Cricket media on stage

610
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:46,680
Speaker 1: with a bunch of different Democratic strategists. When I made

611
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:50,720
Speaker 1: the point, I was like Trump moderated and some things

612
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:52,240
Speaker 1: like a lot of Democrats don't want to accept that.

613
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:54,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, or so no, it's true. There are a couple

614
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:55,040
Speaker 2: of issues where you're.

615
00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:57,360
Speaker 1: Right, and so what did he do though? He ran

616
00:28:57,400 --> 00:28:59,720
Speaker 1: against the establishment of the party from the left end

617
00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:02,200
Speaker 1: the right, He's like the established the party has been

618
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:05,040
Speaker 1: too weak on immigration and crime and racial or whatever.

619
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 1: I'm going to run to the right of them on that,

620
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:14,000
Speaker 1: but on war, on social security and medicaid, our medicare,

621
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:17,040
Speaker 1: rather on gay issues even a little bit. He ran

622
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:19,520
Speaker 1: to the left and said, oh, no, the party has

623
00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:21,600
Speaker 1: been wrong about this, and didn't just say he was

624
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:23,560
Speaker 1: moderate about it. He's like, no, these guys are idiots.

625
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:25,440
Speaker 1: They're starting to take away your social security, They're getting

626
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:28,240
Speaker 1: putting in stupid wars. These guys are idiots. So he

627
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 1: ran to the left aggressively. And I just think that

628
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:37,240
Speaker 1: if you just look at the last ten years of Clinton, Biden, Harris,

629
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 1: all good people, none of people have any issue with

630
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:42,400
Speaker 1: They all kind of ran as status quo. And if

631
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:45,360
Speaker 1: you look at the big candidates for Senate and governor's races,

632
00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:47,840
Speaker 1: most of them all ran as like various versions of

633
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 1: like kind of mainstream liberalism whatever you however defined. And

634
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:55,000
Speaker 1: I just think that the Democrats, when they think about

635
00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:56,560
Speaker 1: opening up the tent, it needs to be more than

636
00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:58,920
Speaker 1: about just like accepting people like me, but like really

637
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 1: opening up the tent and like thinking about how you

638
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:04,960
Speaker 1: can run against the establishment in certain ways, and whether

639
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:07,760
Speaker 1: that's on economics or on foreign policy. You know, you

640
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:09,480
Speaker 1: can have somebody on the show to be like, really

641
00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 1: it goes back to Clinton and corporatism, so we to

642
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:16,960
Speaker 1: have cared more about working class stuff. Maybe maybe I

643
00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:19,040
Speaker 1: guess I'm just saying I'm open to any of those things.

644
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:21,440
Speaker 1: But what I would like to see is the Democrats say, Okay,

645
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:25,000
Speaker 1: people feel like the party is not representing them, we

646
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:27,440
Speaker 1: need to run against what the party has been doing

647
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:30,840
Speaker 1: to show people that we that we hear them. And

648
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 1: I think I feel like it could be on a

649
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:34,360
Speaker 1: lot of different things. I think maybe it's cultural issues,

650
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:37,480
Speaker 1: maybe it's economic issues, maybe it's foreign policy. I don't

651
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:39,440
Speaker 1: what I mean, is it is it gun issues?

652
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:41,120
Speaker 2: Where do you see? I mean, just in terms of

653
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:43,239
Speaker 2: breaking them down and breaking it down a little bit

654
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:47,520
Speaker 2: more pragmatically on a subset of issues. I obviously we

655
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 2: get into the whole pronoun issue, the cultural normancy, the

656
00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:55,280
Speaker 2: issues around trans rights and sports, But I mean, where

657
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:57,320
Speaker 2: do you start to see the contours of that or

658
00:30:57,760 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 2: or is it are we way off? Is it more

659
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:02,440
Speaker 2: just the populism of a Bernie in an AOC and

660
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:05,920
Speaker 2: my dummy that meets sort of a bandoned maga base.

661
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:09,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I guess my answer to this is

662
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:14,080
Speaker 1: we should try different stuff and see what sticks and

663
00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:17,160
Speaker 1: like let let one thousand followers balloom, right, and like

664
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:18,920
Speaker 1: instead of trying the same thing over and over again,

665
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:20,200
Speaker 1: like what's the definition of insanity?

666
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:20,480
Speaker 2: Right?

667
00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:24,160
Speaker 1: Like I look at I would answer your question like

668
00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:26,760
Speaker 1: if I could make a lab candidate like of you know,

669
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:29,840
Speaker 1: if you get into Madden or NBA a two K

670
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:31,600
Speaker 1: where you have to create your own candidate, like if

671
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:34,720
Speaker 1: you created your own person. And these are not my

672
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:37,800
Speaker 1: personal views, So I'm just assessing what I think would

673
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:40,920
Speaker 1: be smart politics. Like I would think that a candidate

674
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:45,240
Speaker 1: that like run that has some bernieish like on economics

675
00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:49,880
Speaker 1: of saying, hey, we're going to run against the billionaire's

676
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:52,240
Speaker 1: class and we're gonna, you know, create a new text

677
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:56,440
Speaker 1: bracket for the top zero point one percent. Uh. And also,

678
00:31:56,600 --> 00:32:01,720
Speaker 1: by the way, I think that we, you know, should

679
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:05,840
Speaker 1: really be supportive of our police and law enforcement and

680
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:08,080
Speaker 1: like and I'm not just gonna say this, I'm gonna

681
00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:09,800
Speaker 1: make one of the centering things of my campaign that

682
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:11,640
Speaker 1: we fund a lot of We put a ton of

683
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:14,000
Speaker 1: money into the cops, and I have cops behind me

684
00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:17,400
Speaker 1: on stage when I'm doing events. And also on foreign policy,

685
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:19,680
Speaker 1: I think maybe we should, like you know, Trump is

686
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 1: terrible and irresponsible and he sucked up to all the dictators.

687
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 1: Or there's one thing that he's right about it maybe

688
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:29,560
Speaker 1: we should spend a little bit less. That's not my politics,

689
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:31,239
Speaker 1: by the way, what I just laid out, but like

690
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:34,680
Speaker 1: that's something that's like totally different than what we're seeing

691
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,880
Speaker 1: from democrats. I mean you you know, you could say

692
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:39,600
Speaker 1: people paid lip service to any of that. There's the

693
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:42,200
Speaker 1: James carvel op ed recently where he was like, you

694
00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:46,160
Speaker 1: should be populist and you should make sure that everybody

695
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:48,280
Speaker 1: knows it, and like that is to me like a

696
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 1: big thing, right, Like, so I don't I'm less prescriptive

697
00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:55,400
Speaker 1: on I think it's just defund the police. I think

698
00:32:55,400 --> 00:33:00,000
Speaker 1: it's just you know whatever, corporism or you know whatever

699
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:02,040
Speaker 1: are the typical things you'd hear. I just just woke,

700
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:06,800
Speaker 1: like I think that it's it's more just like people

701
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:10,440
Speaker 1: want to hear from somebody, Like people want to hear

702
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:16,240
Speaker 1: from candidates like are are authentic and passionate about what

703
00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:19,480
Speaker 1: they're passionate about? You, I guess the last time. One

704
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:22,640
Speaker 1: example of this is I get like red state democrats

705
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 1: running calling me sometimes like what should I do? What

706
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:26,880
Speaker 1: should I do? Nobody ever listens to me, so we'll

707
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:28,840
Speaker 1: see this will be maybe they will not. I'm sang

708
00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:31,800
Speaker 1: it on your podcast. The I'm like, pick whatever issue

709
00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:33,360
Speaker 1: it is that you agree with Trump for the most

710
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:36,080
Speaker 1: on and talk about that all the time, and like

711
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:38,400
Speaker 1: you can be a mainstream Democrat on everybody else on

712
00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:41,040
Speaker 1: everything else, but talk about it all the time. Don't

713
00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 1: just like put it on your page, you know, just

714
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:45,800
Speaker 1: maybe like this is the one thing that Democrats were

715
00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:47,880
Speaker 1: wrong about that he was right about. And I and

716
00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:52,200
Speaker 1: you know, I think that just as a political strategy

717
00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:58,040
Speaker 1: seems to me like potentially more fruitful than being very

718
00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:01,320
Speaker 1: prescriptive about this sort of never ending fight between the

719
00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:05,040
Speaker 1: Hillary and the Burney people. You know, what do you.

720
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:08,880
Speaker 2: Make in that context? And so much of a substance

721
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:12,560
Speaker 2: and obviously policy that marks a value proposition and a

722
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 2: lens to which you see the world and obviously connect

723
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:20,560
Speaker 2: with voters in that respect or or or repel voters

724
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:25,160
Speaker 2: depending on that perspective. What about the asymmetry in terms

725
00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:29,040
Speaker 2: of ability to communicate that message at scale. It's one

726
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:30,560
Speaker 2: thing to be out there on a stump speech in

727
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 2: a town hall, to be Beato's so good in those

728
00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:36,320
Speaker 2: settings and over and over and rep rep, Rep, Rep, Rep. Rep.

729
00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:41,560
Speaker 2: It's another what's sunshine and highlighted, you know with Rachel

730
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:46,120
Speaker 2: Maddow versus what's highlighted with Sean Hannity and the asymmetry

731
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:48,239
Speaker 2: on the Hannity side of that equation. Well, maybe not

732
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:53,719
Speaker 2: with Rachel, but she's the anomaly. But the dominance they

733
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:56,760
Speaker 2: have in terms of those propaganda networks to shape shift

734
00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:01,200
Speaker 2: and to flood the zone terms of a counter narrative,

735
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:05,640
Speaker 2: what do you make of this the communications environment that

736
00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:06,280
Speaker 2: we're in today.

737
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:08,080
Speaker 1: I think I have a little bit of a different

738
00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:10,879
Speaker 1: view than what some of the others have said. Unlike

739
00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:14,719
Speaker 1: the Democratic autopsy, I don't think that there's like a

740
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:18,160
Speaker 1: huge shortage out there. And I say this with love,

741
00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:22,239
Speaker 1: like democratic propaganda, like pro democratic I don't know. I

742
00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:26,040
Speaker 1: mean there's a lot of stuff. I frankly, I think

743
00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:28,920
Speaker 1: that the Biden administration probably could have used more criticism

744
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:32,000
Speaker 1: from inside the left media probably would have been a

745
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:35,200
Speaker 1: more helpful thing for the party than for the Biden

746
00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:40,640
Speaker 1: administration to have more cheerleaders. Here's what where I think

747
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:42,120
Speaker 1: the big miss is. I was just looking at this

748
00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:43,440
Speaker 1: yesterday or at the end of the year, so you

749
00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:48,120
Speaker 1: see all the lists, like the top ten Spotify podcasts,

750
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:50,799
Speaker 1: neither of us are on there. I'm going to tell you,

751
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:57,600
Speaker 1: and and we were the number four most searched congrass.

752
00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:00,680
Speaker 1: I'll take what I can gress. I don't know, I

753
00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:03,920
Speaker 1: don't know. Pulling up we talked, but here's and then

754
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:07,439
Speaker 1: all the exact name is. What I observed was that

755
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:15,920
Speaker 1: like the the right leaning cultural stuff is dominates. You know,

756
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:18,839
Speaker 1: it's not like Fox right. It's not like the top

757
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:22,200
Speaker 1: podcasts are not Fox podcast It's not like Sean Hannity's podcast.

758
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:23,600
Speaker 1: Nobody listens to that. Here we go, I got it

759
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:28,400
Speaker 1: right now, Joe Rogan, theovon are one and two Sean

760
00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:31,000
Speaker 1: Ryan Show, but you'll probably spent four.

761
00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:33,520
Speaker 2: For four hours with him. Remarkable guy.

762
00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:37,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, actually that's right stuff, Huberman Lab that's right wing.

763
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:40,399
Speaker 1: And then you've got Tucker which is which is more

764
00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:42,480
Speaker 1: like kind of cultural right stuff now, I mean like

765
00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:45,200
Speaker 1: a race of conspiracy Land, and Tucker's going so crazy.

766
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:47,480
Speaker 1: So there you go. I mean you look at that

767
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:50,200
Speaker 1: and it's like, well the Daily is on there, it's

768
00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:53,200
Speaker 1: the New York Times podcast, so that's just news left,

769
00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:57,000
Speaker 1: kind of center left news. It's reality information. So I

770
00:36:57,120 --> 00:37:00,520
Speaker 1: just look at that. In my takeaway is man, during

771
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:03,000
Speaker 1: the Obama years, I was on the I was on

772
00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:04,600
Speaker 1: the losing side of this one too, because I was

773
00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:07,560
Speaker 1: a Republican then, like the Democrats dominated the culture, right,

774
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:10,680
Speaker 1: Obama's on ESPN doing his pick and doing his marsh

775
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:14,560
Speaker 1: Madness picks, and like athletes around and there weren't podcasts,

776
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:16,960
Speaker 1: weren't like proliferating them. But you know, if you looked

777
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:19,960
Speaker 1: at like what athletes and musicians and you know, these

778
00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:22,680
Speaker 1: huge cultural figures, they're all pro Obama.

779
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:23,080
Speaker 2: You know.

780
00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:25,960
Speaker 1: The the Republican response to that was like that pathetic

781
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:28,839
Speaker 1: maccain ad that we did. It was like you're a celebrity,

782
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:32,360
Speaker 1: you're too popular. Yeah, yeah, that's how you win votes,

783
00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:35,000
Speaker 1: so you know, but that we had nothing, so that's

784
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:36,439
Speaker 1: what we did. But he tried to make it seem

785
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:39,360
Speaker 1: like he had a big ego. So that is the

786
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:44,200
Speaker 1: big shift to me. And and you know, I think

787
00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:45,640
Speaker 1: that and where.

788
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:47,120
Speaker 2: Was I mean, tim, where was that shift? When did

789
00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:48,840
Speaker 2: that shift? When do you start to see that shift occur?

790
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:51,560
Speaker 2: Is it the culture personality? Is it the shiny object

791
00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:54,719
Speaker 2: that's Obama in his unique ability to capture that? Is

792
00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:57,040
Speaker 2: it the shiny object of Trump and his ability to

793
00:37:57,040 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 2: capture that on the on the flip side Kennedy Center Honors,

794
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:01,279
Speaker 2: we can get to that and all the rest.

795
00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:05,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, a little person personality and both like objectively Obama.

796
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:10,040
Speaker 1: If you just look at the candidate's Obama, McCain, Obama, Romney, Trump, Clinton, Trump, Biden, Trump, Commall,

797
00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:11,400
Speaker 1: whatever you think about it, and be like, who is

798
00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:14,520
Speaker 1: who is like the bigger personality? It was Obama, Obama,

799
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:17,160
Speaker 1: Trump or Trump, right, and so the bigger personality one

800
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:20,520
Speaker 1: four out of five. So that's part of it. I

801
00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:22,920
Speaker 1: think that there was also and you got into this

802
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:24,520
Speaker 1: at the pot at the beginning of the year when

803
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:26,800
Speaker 1: you're trying to you know, when you try to Charlie

804
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:29,839
Speaker 1: and others of like where was. I think that there's

805
00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:32,440
Speaker 1: a big COVID shift, and I think that there was

806
00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:34,200
Speaker 1: kind of a back a lot and people are in

807
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:37,040
Speaker 1: their home, people are frustrated. A lot of this was unfair.

808
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:39,440
Speaker 1: So I'm this, I'm just saying this is an observer

809
00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:42,040
Speaker 1: not as not as right because like two man people

810
00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:44,560
Speaker 1: died of COVID. The Republican standal COVID poorly. Ronda Santis

811
00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:47,759
Speaker 1: was maybe the worst COVID governor besides Andrew Cuomo. Like so,

812
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:52,760
Speaker 1: you know, they're terrible policies. But culturally, there's this sense

813
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:55,760
Speaker 1: that like the left was wanting people to stay inside,

814
00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:58,719
Speaker 1: keeping people from doing stuff. There's a backlash that just happens,

815
00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:01,880
Speaker 1: like and there's a backlash to it. And Rogan was

816
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:03,879
Speaker 1: at the forefront of that. But there are a bunch

817
00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:06,799
Speaker 1: of others, like a lot of the comedians, And I

818
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:08,680
Speaker 1: think you tie that a little bit. This is you know,

819
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:12,719
Speaker 1: I'm not a woke critic. I think a lot of

820
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:16,160
Speaker 1: that is stupid, frankly, but like you tie it into

821
00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:19,239
Speaker 1: the fair or not. Comedians were feeling like also they're

822
00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:22,560
Speaker 1: being stifled a little bit, and they're like, there's cancel culture.

823
00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:26,400
Speaker 1: I just I think that happened, like whether it was

824
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:30,520
Speaker 1: fair or unfair, people felt that way. And these new

825
00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:35,520
Speaker 1: cultural figures emerge who were anti establishment, you know, going

826
00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:39,320
Speaker 1: against you know who the suits were. My whole childhood

827
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:41,600
Speaker 1: is my side. The Republicans were the suits, you know,

828
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:44,120
Speaker 1: and it's like we flipped, right, we flipped. Now the

829
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:46,920
Speaker 1: Democrats are the suits at the schools and the establishment

830
00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:50,279
Speaker 1: and the Republicans became, you know, the ones who are

831
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:53,520
Speaker 1: like go out you know, who cares about the disease,

832
00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:55,279
Speaker 1: you know, go out there and party and make out

833
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:58,719
Speaker 1: with whoever you want to say you're racist jokes, and

834
00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 1: like we can think that's bad as a culture, but

835
00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:06,520
Speaker 1: that is it happened, right, And so how do the

836
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:08,719
Speaker 1: Democrats kind of grab some of that back in a

837
00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:10,280
Speaker 1: way that it's still core to values?

838
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:10,520
Speaker 2: Right?

839
00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:13,960
Speaker 1: How can you how can you be anti establishment again?

840
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:18,200
Speaker 1: How can you engage culturally with whether it's comedians or

841
00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:23,040
Speaker 1: you know, fitness or what across sports? Across bord Pablo

842
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:24,800
Speaker 1: how many Pablo Tori is doing this kind of a

843
00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:27,759
Speaker 1: lefty sports you know in space, Like there's how do

844
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:28,359
Speaker 1: you do it?

845
00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:28,839
Speaker 2: How do you?

846
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:33,800
Speaker 1: And I think to me, if like the the anti

847
00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:37,680
Speaker 1: mega movement broadly defined, like that is our challenge more

848
00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:42,480
Speaker 1: than like let's have another left wing propaganda network, I

849
00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:44,840
Speaker 1: think it's I think we're fine on that front.

850
00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:48,239
Speaker 2: It's interesting and by the way, I appreciate that just

851
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:52,279
Speaker 2: sort of foundational perspective that it's not necessarily about a

852
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:55,399
Speaker 2: platform or a network necessarily just sort of amping up

853
00:40:56,040 --> 00:40:58,480
Speaker 2: our talking points, that it's it's a deeper cultural thing.

854
00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:01,000
Speaker 2: It's interesting when we read Charlie Kirk on that show.

855
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:03,480
Speaker 2: He made the point that many have made, but he

856
00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:06,000
Speaker 2: really reinforced it, and it gets to the next point

857
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:08,000
Speaker 2: I want to bring up with you. He talked about,

858
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:10,960
Speaker 2: you know, politics, this notion of being downstream from culture,

859
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:14,000
Speaker 2: but he said it is culture. It had morphed, it emerged,

860
00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:17,400
Speaker 2: and that extended in a conversation we had about a

861
00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:19,759
Speaker 2: year ago to the issue of men and boys, and

862
00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:22,400
Speaker 2: it's an issue I know you focused a lot on

863
00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:26,120
Speaker 2: and I was actually surprised. I didn't fully appreciate how

864
00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:28,640
Speaker 2: much time and energy had focused on turning point USA

865
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:31,120
Speaker 2: And how do you actually have been to some of

866
00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:34,880
Speaker 2: Charlie's events and you saw this thing emerging. You certainly

867
00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:37,560
Speaker 2: absorbed it. Obviously the rest of us woke up to it,

868
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:40,960
Speaker 2: and I hope the Democratic Party is waking up to it.

869
00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:45,640
Speaker 2: Multi ethnic, it's not just white men, but young folks, Galloway, others,

870
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:48,560
Speaker 2: Richard Reeves, so many that have been writing talking about this.

871
00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:50,960
Speaker 2: We've been highlighting this as well, and doing a lot

872
00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:53,400
Speaker 2: in my day job as governor dressed this issue. But

873
00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:55,759
Speaker 2: talk to me a little bit about what you've seen

874
00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:59,240
Speaker 2: in this space and how we can address that issue.

875
00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:02,439
Speaker 2: In the spirit of our conversation, just a moment ago

876
00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:02,799
Speaker 2: as well.

877
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:05,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I did. Every year I went at the end.

878
00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:06,680
Speaker 1: I think I'm a skip of this year. I just

879
00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:09,280
Speaker 1: can't take it. But I went to their year end fest.

880
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:13,680
Speaker 1: It's called America Fest as a turning point festival. I

881
00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:16,000
Speaker 1: did you ever see the movie Catch Me if you can? Yeah,

882
00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:19,200
Speaker 1: it's uh. I had running a little little joke with

883
00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:21,759
Speaker 1: Charlie about how like it was like Tom Hanks and

884
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:24,520
Speaker 1: Leo like they like we meet every Christmas. It's like

885
00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:27,200
Speaker 1: we're on opposites and I don't know who was the

886
00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:29,400
Speaker 1: cop and it was the thief. I guess maybe I

887
00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:30,680
Speaker 1: was the cop and he was the thief. But what

888
00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:33,120
Speaker 1: either way, Like it was like we every Christmas, like

889
00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:35,080
Speaker 1: a week before Christmas Day at that festival, I went

890
00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:38,200
Speaker 1: to Arizona and I usually write an article about it,

891
00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:40,640
Speaker 1: but usually it was like to watch and consume and talk,

892
00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:42,640
Speaker 1: and I could talk to the team and be like

893
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:44,359
Speaker 1: what is that? Like why are you coming to here?

894
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:47,160
Speaker 1: So it's very different than me being a young conservative

895
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:50,000
Speaker 1: like I was. I was an outlier. I was I

896
00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:52,880
Speaker 1: was a Michael J. Fox, you know, Alex P. Keaton,

897
00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:55,440
Speaker 1: you know like a little briefcase and the blue blazer

898
00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:58,080
Speaker 1: and like that was high school conservatives. When I was

899
00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:02,279
Speaker 1: growing up, high school conservatives like TPSA events. There was

900
00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:04,200
Speaker 1: like there were like basically two types of people there.

901
00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:07,480
Speaker 1: One was there was a very Christian church revival element

902
00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:09,400
Speaker 1: to it, and then there was also like kind of

903
00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:11,879
Speaker 1: a friddy party element to it, and maybe a little

904
00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:14,480
Speaker 1: intermingling between the two. But like both of those were

905
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:18,319
Speaker 1: coming and they're having fun. Like they had fun at

906
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:20,040
Speaker 1: that at those festivals every year at the end of

907
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:21,439
Speaker 1: the year. I never had a fun at a single

908
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:23,600
Speaker 1: seapack when I was in college. I never went to

909
00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:27,080
Speaker 1: a single college Republican event that was fun. Those guys

910
00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:30,000
Speaker 1: were having fun and when but it was a lot

911
00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:34,880
Speaker 1: men we should just observe and so, okay, what is

912
00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:38,040
Speaker 1: happening with that? And like and I would ask them

913
00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:40,760
Speaker 1: a lot of those guys, like what are the issues

914
00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:43,680
Speaker 1: that brought you to this? And without a doubt and

915
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:47,000
Speaker 1: the old three legged Reagan stool frugal Dundell when I

916
00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:50,280
Speaker 1: was a kid was you know, social conservative, fiscal conservative,

917
00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:53,400
Speaker 1: foreign policy, strong military, tax cuts, and pro life to

918
00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:55,200
Speaker 1: short change, like those would be the three that you'd

919
00:43:55,239 --> 00:43:59,920
Speaker 1: hear most this. Yeah, this group opposite too many wars.

920
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:03,680
Speaker 1: I don't want to go into wars anymore, anti woke, strong,

921
00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:07,360
Speaker 1: you know, anti immigrant, some of the white replacement stuff

922
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:10,120
Speaker 1: gets into the scarier stuff. But like that's what they

923
00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:11,759
Speaker 1: would say, right, Like, those are the things that they

924
00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:15,600
Speaker 1: cared about. It wasn't cutting red tape, cutting taxes, government efficiency.

925
00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:18,520
Speaker 1: There's a little bit of pro life stuff, but wasn't

926
00:44:18,560 --> 00:44:22,359
Speaker 1: really you know, the other you know, guns doesn't really

927
00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:25,880
Speaker 1: come up, and certainly wasn't strong militaries the opposite. And

928
00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:29,719
Speaker 1: to me, that's like, okay, that needs to tell you something.

929
00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:31,239
Speaker 1: If you're on the other side of that, All right, well,

930
00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:33,840
Speaker 1: how can you reach those guys? The Democrats aren't going

931
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:37,200
Speaker 1: to reach the people that are concerned about the diversifying country. Okay,

932
00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:38,879
Speaker 1: like that some of those people are out of reach.

933
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:42,200
Speaker 1: But the other group, like guys like young men who

934
00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:45,359
Speaker 1: are just feeling I should have said financial insecurity, getting

935
00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:48,080
Speaker 1: jobs and stuff. Young men also young men who are

936
00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:49,719
Speaker 1: feeling like it's hard for them to go find a

937
00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:53,759
Speaker 1: job outside of college, who feel like, you know, the

938
00:44:55,040 --> 00:44:58,319
Speaker 1: establishment doesn't really care about them anymore, and they only

939
00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:01,719
Speaker 1: care about every other Demo a group except them. They're

940
00:45:01,719 --> 00:45:03,480
Speaker 1: worried about going off to war. They don't want to

941
00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:06,040
Speaker 1: be sent off to war. It feels like the Democratic

942
00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:08,520
Speaker 1: Party should have a message for that person, like you

943
00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:10,759
Speaker 1: know what I mean, Like they're not like some of

944
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:13,319
Speaker 1: them are unreachable. You know, I hear from Democrats now

945
00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:15,239
Speaker 1: I are like, why should we do this? Like why

946
00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:17,600
Speaker 1: talk to the Charlie Kirk people who cares they're not reachable.

947
00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:20,000
Speaker 1: It's like, no, there's some of those kids or the

948
00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:22,040
Speaker 1: red hat kids are going to be mega. You know,

949
00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:24,359
Speaker 1: some of them are unreachable obviously, but there is a

950
00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:28,719
Speaker 1: category of young men out there that feels, yeah, economically insecure.

951
00:45:28,719 --> 00:45:31,760
Speaker 1: It feels like they're not being heard, and they don't

952
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:37,920
Speaker 1: like the foreign wars and it's not hard. Feels like

953
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:42,120
Speaker 1: a you know, a cloned Obama could reach that person.

954
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:45,680
Speaker 1: You know, none of that is really that far away

955
00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:50,520
Speaker 1: from what Obama's message was. So I don't know. I

956
00:45:50,560 --> 00:45:53,680
Speaker 1: think that they're more reachable than people think. And a

957
00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:56,239
Speaker 1: lot of it is based on effort. It's based on

958
00:45:56,320 --> 00:46:02,480
Speaker 1: not actively alienating them and maybe you know, thinking about

959
00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:05,840
Speaker 1: the ways in which the Democratic Party's policies have have

960
00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:08,560
Speaker 1: you know, gotten them out of step with them.

961
00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:14,920
Speaker 2: Have you seen anything comparable emerging from the prism of

962
00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:18,279
Speaker 2: the left or even the center left? I mean, is

963
00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:22,399
Speaker 2: there anything not even close analogous to what turned out

964
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:25,479
Speaker 2: and is doing turning and turning on? Uh? These these

965
00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:27,520
Speaker 2: these conversations and people and events.

966
00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:30,960
Speaker 1: No, and I don't and you see the energy on

967
00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:33,120
Speaker 1: the left. I guess this is kind of a weird

968
00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:35,520
Speaker 1: comp But the closest one I could think of really

969
00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:38,760
Speaker 1: would have been the Gaza protests. Like that was engaging

970
00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:40,560
Speaker 1: a lot of young people. That wasn't really the Democratic Party.

971
00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:42,960
Speaker 1: That would be a left thing that was engaging young people.

972
00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:45,640
Speaker 1: It wasn't like a group or an event. But guess

973
00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:48,759
Speaker 1: my point is, like, what would be an exis you know,

974
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:51,640
Speaker 1: what would be a comp of something where it's like, okay,

975
00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:57,520
Speaker 1: you have democratic speakers and media personalities and what an

976
00:46:57,719 --> 00:47:01,839
Speaker 1: organizers come together and a bunch of young people meet

977
00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:06,200
Speaker 1: and they gather and they have fellowship and they that's

978
00:47:06,239 --> 00:47:10,279
Speaker 1: the acts probably like whatever, have fun? Like what would

979
00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:12,640
Speaker 1: be I mean, it's Zorn's campaign, there's a little bit

980
00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:14,520
Speaker 1: of that, right, Like, but I don't I don't see

981
00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:17,799
Speaker 1: any Yeah, it's an original campaign, right, Yeah, But I

982
00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:19,759
Speaker 1: don't see anybody trying to do that. And then the

983
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:23,239
Speaker 1: last article I wrote about last year's turning point, you know,

984
00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:26,399
Speaker 1: it was a lot of it was making fun of

985
00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:29,000
Speaker 1: some of the extreme speakers they had and in the

986
00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:31,520
Speaker 1: insanity of it and the tenuousness of the coalition. But

987
00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:33,319
Speaker 1: the very beginning of the article I just said, before

988
00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:36,200
Speaker 1: I make fun of these guys, you have to just

989
00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:39,120
Speaker 1: acknowledge that what they're doing here is there's something that

990
00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:42,000
Speaker 1: they're doing here and and create and actually gathering and

991
00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:46,520
Speaker 1: organizing and and and there's not there's not a comp

992
00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:47,000
Speaker 1: on the left.

993
00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:51,080
Speaker 2: No, and yeah, anyway, well again we can I have

994
00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:53,480
Speaker 2: much deeper into this, but to me, it's code read.

995
00:47:53,520 --> 00:47:55,319
Speaker 2: I mean, break the glass if it was any and

996
00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:57,360
Speaker 2: it's been said by others, but it's absolutely true if

997
00:47:57,360 --> 00:47:59,400
Speaker 2: this was any other and you implied it as it

998
00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:01,640
Speaker 2: relates to Democrats that seem to have a solution to

999
00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:05,319
Speaker 2: every problem and every constituency. But for whatever reason, young men,

1000
00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:09,439
Speaker 2: we feel like that's that's verboten because somehow it's taking away,

1001
00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:12,640
Speaker 2: it's somehow scarcity mindset, that it's going to somehow take

1002
00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:16,320
Speaker 2: away from our advocacy for women and girls. When in fact,

1003
00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:19,960
Speaker 2: advocacy for women and girls. You ask any mother, ask

1004
00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:22,960
Speaker 2: my wife. We have two young boys. I mean this

1005
00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:26,399
Speaker 2: for moms, this is one of the toughest issues they're

1006
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:29,359
Speaker 2: coming to grips with. What's happening with my boys, what's

1007
00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:32,319
Speaker 2: happening with these young men in particular.

1008
00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:34,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, whether it's going to roll back progress, which I

1009
00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:38,640
Speaker 1: can't I understand, like either for women or for you know,

1010
00:48:38,719 --> 00:48:43,000
Speaker 1: black and brown men. And it's just like, I just

1011
00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:45,960
Speaker 1: don't think that's that's the place that we're in right now.

1012
00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:48,400
Speaker 1: Like there's been a lot Like absolutely, it's great that

1013
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:50,080
Speaker 1: there's been a lot of progress. You just look at

1014
00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:53,480
Speaker 1: the college attainment right now, and like women are doing better,

1015
00:48:53,960 --> 00:48:56,359
Speaker 1: you know, I they just are And that's okay, Well

1016
00:48:56,960 --> 00:48:59,400
Speaker 1: that doesn't it doesn't mean that you want you know,

1017
00:48:59,480 --> 00:49:03,640
Speaker 1: I'm not at advocating for trad trad marriage like an

1018
00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:05,839
Speaker 1: he went back. But it's just like, Okay, how can

1019
00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:09,200
Speaker 1: you say to you know, you know, figure out how

1020
00:49:09,239 --> 00:49:14,160
Speaker 1: to communicate to young men, particularly you know, I feel

1021
00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:15,919
Speaker 1: like a lot of times this conversation is like about

1022
00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:18,480
Speaker 1: what's happening in elite schools. And I don't know about you,

1023
00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:20,120
Speaker 1: but I could not give a fuck less about what's

1024
00:49:20,120 --> 00:49:24,760
Speaker 1: happening at Harvard and Yale, and like the kids at Buddy,

1025
00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:30,560
Speaker 1: so trust me. Story about the kid who just missed

1026
00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:33,359
Speaker 1: the who is waitlisted at Yale and you know has

1027
00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:35,680
Speaker 1: to go to Kenyon instead. It's like that that kid

1028
00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:37,320
Speaker 1: is going to be fine, all right, Like that's not

1029
00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:40,200
Speaker 1: what you're worried about. It's like, it's it's the next one.

1030
00:49:40,239 --> 00:49:42,360
Speaker 1: And at that next group, it's a lot, it is

1031
00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:45,320
Speaker 1: a diverse group. It's like it's it's young, it's a

1032
00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:48,759
Speaker 1: state school, community college, like that type of young man.

1033
00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:52,680
Speaker 1: It feels like really like that they that they're lost

1034
00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:54,960
Speaker 1: right now. And the last thing you want to do,

1035
00:49:55,560 --> 00:49:58,960
Speaker 1: like the what's the worst case scenario that you thrust

1036
00:49:59,080 --> 00:50:02,279
Speaker 1: these guys into the arms of people who are selling

1037
00:50:02,320 --> 00:50:06,080
Speaker 1: them snake oil, like to Nick Fuentes or any of

1038
00:50:06,080 --> 00:50:08,239
Speaker 1: those guys, is that what we want, like to not

1039
00:50:08,560 --> 00:50:11,840
Speaker 1: to you know, be on our high horse. While you

1040
00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:14,640
Speaker 1: have a whole generation of young men that are attracted

1041
00:50:14,719 --> 00:50:19,560
Speaker 1: to a you know, racist, sexist ideology as does their

1042
00:50:19,640 --> 00:50:24,560
Speaker 1: outlet for their feeling of hopelessness. I don't think anybody

1043
00:50:24,640 --> 00:50:26,320
Speaker 1: wants that, So let's let's not do it.

1044
00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:30,040
Speaker 2: Let's signed up to you know that Andrew Tait and

1045
00:50:30,200 --> 00:50:33,480
Speaker 2: his brother's Hustler's university or something. Yeah, you know, I

1046
00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:35,640
Speaker 2: mean it's exactly who took over. And I think you're

1047
00:50:35,719 --> 00:50:37,360
Speaker 2: right the I mean sort of the origin. It's not

1048
00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:40,920
Speaker 2: the origin story, but it was certainly things accelerated pretty

1049
00:50:40,920 --> 00:50:45,680
Speaker 2: significantly during COVID, so many people online, all those algorithms

1050
00:50:45,719 --> 00:50:46,759
Speaker 2: sort of reinforcing.

1051
00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:47,960
Speaker 1: And that's how I mean.

1052
00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:51,400
Speaker 2: I have my my young son and it's story that

1053
00:50:51,480 --> 00:50:54,040
Speaker 2: I share. But when he found out Charlie Kirk was

1054
00:50:54,040 --> 00:50:56,840
Speaker 2: coming on the podcast, he wanted to stay home from school.

1055
00:50:57,239 --> 00:50:59,200
Speaker 2: Not because he loved him, he just knew all about

1056
00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:03,120
Speaker 2: him because all his friends, that age cohort, that was

1057
00:51:03,160 --> 00:51:04,200
Speaker 2: everything on their YouTube.

1058
00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:06,120
Speaker 1: What else does he watch? You know, like what of

1059
00:51:06,160 --> 00:51:06,600
Speaker 1: the other stuff?

1060
00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:09,400
Speaker 2: I mean, it just it started with the games. And

1061
00:51:09,560 --> 00:51:11,200
Speaker 2: by the way, way why I went down to twitch

1062
00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:13,840
Speaker 2: con myself, and that's why we've had a lot of

1063
00:51:13,880 --> 00:51:16,759
Speaker 2: gamers on to talk about what's really happening with young

1064
00:51:16,840 --> 00:51:20,759
Speaker 2: folks and how they're being socially, how they are socially isolated.

1065
00:51:20,840 --> 00:51:23,040
Speaker 2: But it's not about the gaming. It's not about the platforms.

1066
00:51:23,080 --> 00:51:26,920
Speaker 2: It's about these underlying issues that we haven't substantially addressed.

1067
00:51:27,239 --> 00:51:30,759
Speaker 2: And to the extent, you're right that grievance is exploited

1068
00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:33,160
Speaker 2: by some on the right, and of course Trump was

1069
00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:35,440
Speaker 2: able to elect totally take advantage.

1070
00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:37,279
Speaker 1: Of that and just haven't tried. I'm glad you're doing

1071
00:51:37,280 --> 00:51:39,040
Speaker 1: the streamer stuff. This is like a blind spot for me.

1072
00:51:39,080 --> 00:51:40,640
Speaker 1: You know, I can only do what I can do, right.

1073
00:51:40,680 --> 00:51:43,839
Speaker 1: I can hang with the barstool Fridays with me. Yeah,

1074
00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:46,920
Speaker 1: you do a comedy bros. I can't do Fortnite Friday.

1075
00:51:47,000 --> 00:51:49,239
Speaker 1: Everybody's got a role to play. Yeah, you can do

1076
00:51:49,360 --> 00:51:53,040
Speaker 1: Fortnite Fridays. Like, So, THEO Van is one of these

1077
00:51:53,080 --> 00:51:56,600
Speaker 1: guys kind of comedian podcast Real road Rules. He's Louisiana.

1078
00:51:56,680 --> 00:51:58,640
Speaker 1: We have a mutual friend I met a couple of times.

1079
00:51:59,480 --> 00:52:03,839
Speaker 1: Like the idea that Theo Vonne is a Republican voter

1080
00:52:04,080 --> 00:52:06,680
Speaker 1: is crazy, Like there's no reason for this, Like he

1081
00:52:06,880 --> 00:52:09,680
Speaker 1: is just like he's a bro that wants to live

1082
00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:12,719
Speaker 1: his life and like not have people get on his back.

1083
00:52:12,880 --> 00:52:16,239
Speaker 1: And he is like what he's concerned about. It's health

1084
00:52:16,280 --> 00:52:18,560
Speaker 1: care issues in his life he's concerned about, like or

1085
00:52:18,640 --> 00:52:20,719
Speaker 1: not personally, but a family, Like he like the way

1086
00:52:20,800 --> 00:52:24,480
Speaker 1: that big pharma has taken advantage of people, and he's

1087
00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:27,600
Speaker 1: seen people health have health care bill issues, and you know,

1088
00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:32,400
Speaker 1: he doesn't like he is totally non ideological. Like, but

1089
00:52:33,000 --> 00:52:37,160
Speaker 1: the Republicans tried Trump on his podcast JD did RFK

1090
00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:41,520
Speaker 1: did he is a Republican now and they like, you know, worked.

1091
00:52:41,440 --> 00:52:44,040
Speaker 2: We're still negotiating the terms of which questions we're going

1092
00:52:44,080 --> 00:52:46,320
Speaker 2: to be asked. Is going to be only forty five minutes?

1093
00:52:46,400 --> 00:52:49,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, made the case to him and it's like

1094
00:52:49,480 --> 00:52:52,120
Speaker 1: and now you know they're like, but he's like hanging

1095
00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:55,799
Speaker 1: out with Trump and Ivanka and Jared. It's just like why,

1096
00:52:56,080 --> 00:52:58,040
Speaker 1: like this didn't have to It doesn't have to be

1097
00:52:58,280 --> 00:53:00,839
Speaker 1: like this, Like these people are not idea logical. They

1098
00:53:01,320 --> 00:53:05,279
Speaker 1: have concerns that are very well addressable by people that

1099
00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:09,120
Speaker 1: have liberal values if they just were communicated in a

1100
00:53:09,200 --> 00:53:11,799
Speaker 1: certain way and tried. I'd like to thinks at the top,

1101
00:53:11,880 --> 00:53:14,400
Speaker 1: it's like just to use the same lessons you get

1102
00:53:14,440 --> 00:53:16,360
Speaker 1: from reaching out to any not that they're not that

1103
00:53:16,400 --> 00:53:18,680
Speaker 1: he's a marginalized group, but reaching out to any other group.

1104
00:53:19,080 --> 00:53:23,000
Speaker 1: You know, it's just like showing up matters, representation matters.

1105
00:53:23,239 --> 00:53:26,640
Speaker 1: Just do like same for these guys gonna agree more.

1106
00:53:26,680 --> 00:53:29,040
Speaker 2: And it's it's just important and I want to just

1107
00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:32,879
Speaker 2: pull one more contemporary thread in this conversation, but it's

1108
00:53:33,120 --> 00:53:35,880
Speaker 2: important just to remind everybody that the trend lines is

1109
00:53:35,920 --> 00:53:38,120
Speaker 2: it relates to young folks. I mean, when we say

1110
00:53:38,200 --> 00:53:41,280
Speaker 2: co read, it's legitimately co red. If you're thirty years old,

1111
00:53:41,600 --> 00:53:44,320
Speaker 2: you're the first generation in the history of this country

1112
00:53:44,719 --> 00:53:48,160
Speaker 2: not doing better than your parents. You're one hundred percent.

1113
00:53:48,320 --> 00:53:50,840
Speaker 2: If you look at college graduation, it's going to be

1114
00:53:50,880 --> 00:53:53,719
Speaker 2: two to one at the UC's and csus here in

1115
00:53:53,800 --> 00:53:57,040
Speaker 2: the next five years women, which is fantastic, but two

1116
00:53:57,120 --> 00:54:00,840
Speaker 2: to one drop out rates. You see it rates. You know,

1117
00:54:00,960 --> 00:54:03,880
Speaker 2: deaths of despair, suicide rates. If you go to a morgue,

1118
00:54:04,520 --> 00:54:08,200
Speaker 2: you know five bodies, four of them are men from suicide.

1119
00:54:08,320 --> 00:54:12,360
Speaker 2: And it's all these major issues that are shaping things

1120
00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:15,000
Speaker 2: in more ways and more days. And I don't think again,

1121
00:54:15,320 --> 00:54:18,040
Speaker 2: our party, my party is doing enough to advance.

1122
00:54:18,120 --> 00:54:19,840
Speaker 1: It's probably going to make it worse, too, right, I

1123
00:54:19,960 --> 00:54:23,680
Speaker 1: mean probably right seems talk.

1124
00:54:23,520 --> 00:54:26,960
Speaker 2: About just that economic anxiety just briefly in terms of

1125
00:54:27,040 --> 00:54:31,360
Speaker 2: what it seems now Trump himself is recognizing that he

1126
00:54:31,400 --> 00:54:34,360
Speaker 2: has to reconcile that he appears now it's not just

1127
00:54:34,480 --> 00:54:37,239
Speaker 2: the wrecking ball on the East wing, but that he's

1128
00:54:37,239 --> 00:54:40,240
Speaker 2: took a wrecking ball to this economy and tariff impacts

1129
00:54:40,280 --> 00:54:43,480
Speaker 2: are starting to now float through to consumers, at least

1130
00:54:43,520 --> 00:54:46,120
Speaker 2: the anxiety at first, and now the reality of that

1131
00:54:46,640 --> 00:54:49,000
Speaker 2: we'll see. We saw it in terms of cost of

1132
00:54:49,400 --> 00:54:51,560
Speaker 2: Halloween candy. We're going to see it with the cost

1133
00:54:51,600 --> 00:54:55,040
Speaker 2: of Christmas toys. Trump himself this week is in Pennsylvania

1134
00:54:55,360 --> 00:54:58,480
Speaker 2: sort of a reset. How serious do you feel? I

1135
00:54:58,600 --> 00:55:00,919
Speaker 2: know Democrats were so prone it. This is it for Trump?

1136
00:55:01,000 --> 00:55:04,359
Speaker 2: This is it? Do you do you feel like though

1137
00:55:04,400 --> 00:55:07,320
Speaker 2: there is something the fact that Susie Wilds did direct

1138
00:55:07,360 --> 00:55:11,240
Speaker 2: Trump to focus a little less on his Peace Prize

1139
00:55:11,280 --> 00:55:13,279
Speaker 2: and maybe focus a little bit more on, you know,

1140
00:55:14,320 --> 00:55:15,279
Speaker 2: the seeds of a I do.

1141
00:55:16,440 --> 00:55:18,160
Speaker 1: Here's the good news. We've talked about all things the

1142
00:55:18,160 --> 00:55:20,960
Speaker 1: Democrats need to do better. Trump's about to make it

1143
00:55:21,040 --> 00:55:23,840
Speaker 1: easy if you just want to walk through the door. Honestly, Like,

1144
00:55:23,920 --> 00:55:25,879
Speaker 1: because you talk about that same group of people were

1145
00:55:25,920 --> 00:55:32,319
Speaker 1: talking about is like the A'm not the ideologically rigid

1146
00:55:32,360 --> 00:55:35,080
Speaker 1: conservative folks, all right, Like that's not what we we're

1147
00:55:35,080 --> 00:55:36,919
Speaker 1: talking That's not what I'm talking about is the people

1148
00:55:36,960 --> 00:55:42,040
Speaker 1: that came to Trump, disproportionately men, but not entirely, that

1149
00:55:43,320 --> 00:55:46,640
Speaker 1: felt like, you know, politics as usual wasn't serving them,

1150
00:55:46,960 --> 00:55:49,319
Speaker 1: that we were wasting too much money overseas, not taking

1151
00:55:49,360 --> 00:55:52,800
Speaker 1: care of people back here, that you know, we're caring

1152
00:55:52,840 --> 00:55:54,920
Speaker 1: too much about the people at the border and not

1153
00:55:55,000 --> 00:55:58,600
Speaker 1: people in this country, and that you know, he was

1154
00:55:58,680 --> 00:56:01,480
Speaker 1: going to fight the status quo on behalf of them

1155
00:56:01,680 --> 00:56:04,560
Speaker 1: and make their life better and easier and things maybe

1156
00:56:04,560 --> 00:56:07,759
Speaker 1: we get cheaper. That was like, has pitched a lot

1157
00:56:07,800 --> 00:56:11,400
Speaker 1: of those folks, right, and he's failing. He's doing opposite,

1158
00:56:11,480 --> 00:56:13,680
Speaker 1: and they're noticing, you know, and you look at that

1159
00:56:13,840 --> 00:56:15,560
Speaker 1: first row of people that I've noticed, you I. You

1160
00:56:15,640 --> 00:56:18,360
Speaker 1: watch those comedian pods, It's like Joe Rogan's not so

1161
00:56:18,480 --> 00:56:20,920
Speaker 1: sure about it lately. This guy Tim Dillon also doing

1162
00:56:20,920 --> 00:56:23,480
Speaker 1: a lot. Andrew Schultz, like all these guys were for

1163
00:56:23,560 --> 00:56:24,960
Speaker 1: Trump in the end, and they look at this in

1164
00:56:25,000 --> 00:56:29,120
Speaker 1: the same guy like, people, what is your focus on?

1165
00:56:29,320 --> 00:56:31,960
Speaker 1: Like why are we bombing boats in the Caribbean, Why

1166
00:56:32,000 --> 00:56:34,680
Speaker 1: are we bulldozing you know, the East Wing? Why do

1167
00:56:34,719 --> 00:56:36,840
Speaker 1: you care so much about your peace prize? Why have

1168
00:56:37,000 --> 00:56:40,160
Speaker 1: made three trips overseas and no trips to Red America

1169
00:56:40,560 --> 00:56:43,279
Speaker 1: right like Trump is making. Trump is for once making

1170
00:56:43,320 --> 00:56:45,960
Speaker 1: a normal politician mistake. Trump's made a lot of his

1171
00:56:46,040 --> 00:56:49,640
Speaker 1: weird mistakes, you know, Trumpian stuff, gaffs and racist stuff,

1172
00:56:49,640 --> 00:56:52,399
Speaker 1: you know, but this is just normal politician mistakes. He's

1173
00:56:52,400 --> 00:56:54,800
Speaker 1: getting out of touch with what his voters want. And

1174
00:56:55,719 --> 00:56:58,480
Speaker 1: I think it's very real. And I think that people's

1175
00:56:58,600 --> 00:57:02,839
Speaker 1: economic insecurity right now is real. I think it's going

1176
00:57:02,880 --> 00:57:05,480
Speaker 1: to get worse probably for the combination of Trump's own

1177
00:57:05,520 --> 00:57:08,759
Speaker 1: policies and the AI stuff. I think it's going to

1178
00:57:08,800 --> 00:57:12,399
Speaker 1: make it even more challenging, you know, rather than getting better.

1179
00:57:13,120 --> 00:57:16,840
Speaker 1: And and you know, I just think that if those

1180
00:57:16,920 --> 00:57:19,760
Speaker 1: of us that want to move on from this can

1181
00:57:19,880 --> 00:57:22,720
Speaker 1: offer the can offer the people that were attracted to

1182
00:57:22,800 --> 00:57:28,720
Speaker 1: Trump an alternate alternative and say, hey, look, yeah, he

1183
00:57:28,840 --> 00:57:31,480
Speaker 1: promised you all this, didn't he didn't do it, I

1184
00:57:31,680 --> 00:57:33,440
Speaker 1: you know, rather than be like, oh, we told you so,

1185
00:57:34,880 --> 00:57:36,680
Speaker 1: it was obviously not going to do it. You got pulled.

1186
00:57:36,880 --> 00:57:38,320
Speaker 1: I like to do that from time to time, but

1187
00:57:38,400 --> 00:57:41,040
Speaker 1: I'm a podcaster's a politician shouldn't do that, you know

1188
00:57:41,080 --> 00:57:43,920
Speaker 1: what I mean. It's like, okay, instead of that just

1189
00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:49,640
Speaker 1: be like, hey, look, we heard heard you know you

1190
00:57:49,680 --> 00:57:51,800
Speaker 1: want to appeel to care about more about your problems

1191
00:57:51,840 --> 00:57:53,680
Speaker 1: than all this other stuff, and we're going to start

1192
00:57:53,720 --> 00:57:55,680
Speaker 1: doing that. I think it's a big opportunity. And I

1193
00:57:55,720 --> 00:57:58,240
Speaker 1: think that Trump has real problems, not like, oh the

1194
00:57:58,360 --> 00:58:01,160
Speaker 1: end is near, not like things won't be bad the

1195
00:58:01,240 --> 00:58:04,280
Speaker 1: next three years. They will be not. Well, it's impossible

1196
00:58:04,320 --> 00:58:06,920
Speaker 1: to j d Vance or Don Junior or whoever this

1197
00:58:07,080 --> 00:58:09,840
Speaker 1: the next president. It's possible, right, But it's like he's

1198
00:58:09,920 --> 00:58:12,560
Speaker 1: creating a real opportunity because he's losing people that were

1199
00:58:12,600 --> 00:58:16,240
Speaker 1: in his coalition on that economic stuff and also on

1200
00:58:16,280 --> 00:58:17,440
Speaker 1: the immigration stuff.

1201
00:58:18,000 --> 00:58:20,440
Speaker 2: And on immigration what and we didn't even get to healthcare,

1202
00:58:20,480 --> 00:58:24,640
Speaker 2: so was speaker Jeffries. Uh, you know scale of one

1203
00:58:24,720 --> 00:58:27,360
Speaker 2: to ten, is that a nine? Or is it or

1204
00:58:27,480 --> 00:58:29,240
Speaker 2: is it a one until we make it a nine?

1205
00:58:29,480 --> 00:58:30,960
Speaker 2: Because that's the political response.

1206
00:58:32,080 --> 00:58:35,479
Speaker 1: I mean, it was like teetering before. Not to gash

1207
00:58:35,560 --> 00:58:37,520
Speaker 1: you up or anything, but it was teetering before the

1208
00:58:37,600 --> 00:58:40,760
Speaker 1: redistricting move. I can tell you the there was a

1209
00:58:40,840 --> 00:58:43,040
Speaker 1: moment where it's like, if you guys in enact, if

1210
00:58:43,160 --> 00:58:45,640
Speaker 1: Virginia didn't act, if none of the state's just and

1211
00:58:45,720 --> 00:58:48,200
Speaker 1: if the Republicans went full throttle, which they ended up

1212
00:58:48,280 --> 00:58:51,920
Speaker 1: not doing for a variety of reasons and voting right,

1213
00:58:51,960 --> 00:58:55,200
Speaker 1: tech got overturned. There was a moment a couple of

1214
00:58:55,240 --> 00:58:57,520
Speaker 1: months ago where I was like with the nerd math

1215
00:58:57,640 --> 00:58:59,560
Speaker 1: nerds like looking at the maps, and it was like

1216
00:59:00,320 --> 00:59:02,480
Speaker 1: they might just be able to rig their way into

1217
00:59:02,840 --> 00:59:05,680
Speaker 1: to the fact that no matter how good the Democrats do,

1218
00:59:05,800 --> 00:59:08,400
Speaker 1: they can't get a majority. Like they were close to

1219
00:59:08,480 --> 00:59:11,920
Speaker 1: being able to rig the whole mat and and that crumbled.

1220
00:59:12,400 --> 00:59:15,240
Speaker 1: So kudos on that. So I think it's probably like

1221
00:59:16,360 --> 00:59:19,240
Speaker 1: a seven or eight, you know, I think that it's

1222
00:59:19,440 --> 00:59:22,280
Speaker 1: likely that who the hell knows what a year holds.

1223
00:59:22,600 --> 00:59:24,480
Speaker 1: A lot of things can happen between now and then.

1224
00:59:24,760 --> 00:59:26,480
Speaker 1: Part of that seven or eight is, who knows, maybe

1225
00:59:26,560 --> 00:59:30,840
Speaker 1: Jefferies has an insurgency, incident's own party, Like, you know,

1226
00:59:31,160 --> 00:59:34,120
Speaker 1: a lot of things can happen between now and next November.

1227
00:59:34,200 --> 00:59:35,920
Speaker 1: So I don't know about a nine, but I think

1228
00:59:35,960 --> 00:59:39,200
Speaker 1: things will good and scenio a lot of Jeffers.

1229
00:59:39,640 --> 00:59:42,600
Speaker 2: Jefferies is in there in six months if enough Republicans

1230
00:59:42,640 --> 00:59:43,560
Speaker 2: start to resign.

1231
00:59:43,400 --> 00:59:47,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, keep resigning. Yeah, and they know it, you know,

1232
00:59:47,440 --> 00:59:49,440
Speaker 1: they see it that it's not going to happen for them,

1233
00:59:49,560 --> 00:59:52,280
Speaker 1: and that's why a lot of them are resigning. So

1234
00:59:52,680 --> 00:59:55,520
Speaker 1: I think that's good news. I do worry, though, I'm

1235
00:59:55,560 --> 00:59:59,840
Speaker 1: the nervous Nelly podcaster. Yeah, But like I look back

1236
01:00:00,080 --> 01:00:05,840
Speaker 1: at twenty two and I think the big narrative out

1237
01:00:05,840 --> 01:00:08,200
Speaker 1: there was red wave, red wave. Then it didn't happen.

1238
01:00:08,600 --> 01:00:11,640
Speaker 1: And it didn't happen for two reasons. One was people

1239
01:00:11,680 --> 01:00:14,120
Speaker 1: were pissed by jobs there and there was there really

1240
01:00:14,280 --> 01:00:17,920
Speaker 1: was a turnout, particularly among women on the abortion issue.

1241
01:00:18,160 --> 01:00:20,800
Speaker 1: That should be noted. Also because Republicans nominated a bunch

1242
01:00:20,840 --> 01:00:23,800
Speaker 1: of lunatics and like and cost a couple of races

1243
01:00:23,840 --> 01:00:26,480
Speaker 1: that they didn't shouldn't have And I was in Arizona

1244
01:00:26,560 --> 01:00:29,120
Speaker 1: following that race closely, and there was Katie Hobbs had

1245
01:00:29,160 --> 01:00:31,000
Speaker 1: no business winning that race. For example, that was the

1246
01:00:31,000 --> 01:00:34,080
Speaker 1: Governor's race, centur race. But there are other examples of places,

1247
01:00:35,320 --> 01:00:37,080
Speaker 1: and so you come out of it, come out of there,

1248
01:00:37,120 --> 01:00:38,600
Speaker 1: and it's like, oh, it wasn't a red wave, this

1249
01:00:38,800 --> 01:00:42,760
Speaker 1: was great, things are going good. Biden nomics is fine,

1250
01:00:43,360 --> 01:00:45,880
Speaker 1: and we all see what happened. So and I just

1251
01:00:46,000 --> 01:00:47,840
Speaker 1: always looked back. I got an argue with the Biden

1252
01:00:47,880 --> 01:00:49,880
Speaker 1: person recently, where they're like, you know, it was reasonable

1253
01:00:49,880 --> 01:00:51,040
Speaker 1: for us to think it was good because there was

1254
01:00:51,080 --> 01:00:53,040
Speaker 1: no Red wave, and I was like, you lost the

1255
01:00:53,120 --> 01:00:55,640
Speaker 1: House that year. It wasn't that good of a year,

1256
01:00:56,040 --> 01:00:58,960
Speaker 1: Like you lost the House still, And so I just

1257
01:00:59,040 --> 01:01:01,320
Speaker 1: I don't want to get in a next year and

1258
01:01:01,440 --> 01:01:05,760
Speaker 1: have the Democrats get into complacency where it's like, if

1259
01:01:05,800 --> 01:01:07,600
Speaker 1: it's a really good year, Democrats should take the Senate.

1260
01:01:09,080 --> 01:01:10,840
Speaker 1: It's a really good year. They they shouldn't as be

1261
01:01:10,880 --> 01:01:13,080
Speaker 1: Speaker Jeffreyes, it should be Majority Leader Schumer if it's

1262
01:01:13,080 --> 01:01:15,160
Speaker 1: a really good year. And if the Democrats don't take

1263
01:01:15,200 --> 01:01:17,880
Speaker 1: the Senate in a year where Trump is fucking everything up,

1264
01:01:18,600 --> 01:01:20,160
Speaker 1: then that should tell you a little bit something about

1265
01:01:20,240 --> 01:01:22,000
Speaker 1: the Democrats will have more work to do to appeal

1266
01:01:22,040 --> 01:01:24,440
Speaker 1: to people in places like Iowa, Ohio, Texas, to go

1267
01:01:24,480 --> 01:01:26,640
Speaker 1: back to the beginning of our conversation, if we can't

1268
01:01:26,640 --> 01:01:30,000
Speaker 1: win any of those states. And so that would be

1269
01:01:30,240 --> 01:01:32,040
Speaker 1: my take on the midterms. I think things are looking

1270
01:01:32,080 --> 01:01:36,560
Speaker 1: good for the House, which is important, but I'm there

1271
01:01:36,560 --> 01:01:39,720
Speaker 1: should not be complacency about the status of the political

1272
01:01:39,920 --> 01:01:41,000
Speaker 1: status of the Democrats.

1273
01:01:41,000 --> 01:01:43,000
Speaker 2: I don't think, hey, man, well I'll take a seven,

1274
01:01:43,920 --> 01:01:46,960
Speaker 2: an eight for for a nine. But hell, the fact

1275
01:01:47,040 --> 01:01:50,000
Speaker 2: you brought up the Senate. Uh we will end on that.

1276
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Speaker 2: Tim Millar, thanks for being with us today.

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Speaker 1: All right, brother, I appreciate all the work you're doing

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Speaker 1: out there. Let's stay in touch. We've got to do

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Speaker 1: a flip sometime soon, all right.

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Speaker 2: I know we have to do. We absolutely have to do.

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Speaker 2: I haven't We haven't done that yet. I know.

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Speaker 1: Right, We'll see you.

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Speaker 2: Appreciate you.