1 00:00:11,119 --> 00:00:14,440 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Thoughts Podcast. 2 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:18,640 Speaker 1: I'm Tracy Allaway and I'm Joe wisn't thal So, Joe, 3 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:22,840 Speaker 1: do you think it's fair to say that people are angry? Yes, 4 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:26,560 Speaker 1: for many reasons. I would say that as a fair 5 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:29,800 Speaker 1: characterization of how a lot of people feel these day. Yeah, 6 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:34,400 Speaker 1: and obviously people are angry about a wide variety of 7 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:36,959 Speaker 1: different things. But I gotta say, both you and I 8 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:39,559 Speaker 1: live a lot of our lives on social media, and 9 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:43,760 Speaker 1: I always feel like that you can sense public anger 10 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:48,080 Speaker 1: by some of the replies on platforms like Twitter. People 11 00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:51,479 Speaker 1: just get i don't know, much more responsive and much 12 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:56,320 Speaker 1: more outspoken and angrier. That's the only word for it. Yeah. 13 00:00:56,360 --> 00:00:59,840 Speaker 1: I mean there's a lot of very legitimate reasons to 14 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:02,840 Speaker 1: be angry. I'll just say, And it's not going to 15 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:05,280 Speaker 1: take care of uh, you know, it's not going to 16 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 1: eliminate anger. But I just keep thinking, Boy, it would 17 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:11,039 Speaker 1: be really good for people if we could get a 18 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:14,000 Speaker 1: vaccinata for this virus, said, people could get it outside 19 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 1: and a chance to return to something resembling normal life, 20 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:22,520 Speaker 1: Because I think the combination of everything that's going on 21 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:30,040 Speaker 1: these days, the economic destruction, angered police, violent, the frustration 22 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:34,319 Speaker 1: that people have of being inside. People need a break, 23 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:37,880 Speaker 1: and it's clearly not a good not a good moment 24 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:40,399 Speaker 1: right now for a lot of people. Yeah, I think 25 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:42,640 Speaker 1: a lot of people are sitting at home with nothing 26 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:46,039 Speaker 1: else to do except sort of see with anger, and 27 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:48,840 Speaker 1: a lot of that is coming out now. But even 28 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:52,440 Speaker 1: before the coronavirus crisis, I think it's fair to say 29 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 1: that people were getting angrier, or at least, you know, 30 00:01:55,560 --> 00:02:00,280 Speaker 1: whenever we had a populist politician suddenly voted into office, 31 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:04,920 Speaker 1: people would explain that through anger. Well, everyone's angry, So 32 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:07,360 Speaker 1: of course this is going to happen. After the two 33 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:11,200 Speaker 1: thousand eight financial crisis, lots of people were angry at 34 00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 1: the financial system and the bankers. So it feels like 35 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:19,760 Speaker 1: this general trend of public anger has been building up 36 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:22,239 Speaker 1: for a long time and maybe is sort of the 37 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:26,720 Speaker 1: year when when it tipped over into um well, when 38 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 1: it tipped into the public in a in a very 39 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:32,200 Speaker 1: obvious way. I think that's fair. I mean, I think 40 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 1: like post great Financial crisis, and maybe you could arguably 41 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 1: trace it to the aftermath of the Iraq War in 42 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:45,720 Speaker 1: the US. Those two things, the slow recovery, weak wage growth, 43 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:50,240 Speaker 1: polarizing impacts of media. It's been a it feels like 44 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 1: that's a trend that has been with us for a while, 45 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:56,520 Speaker 1: and it feels like, if anything, the only real effect 46 00:02:56,560 --> 00:02:59,359 Speaker 1: on that from the current crisis, it's just been an 47 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:05,320 Speaker 1: excelerant exactly. But you know, people get angry about different things, 48 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:09,840 Speaker 1: but rarely do hear people sort of take a step 49 00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:14,480 Speaker 1: back to consider why that anger exists or what are 50 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:17,760 Speaker 1: the overarching trends that are driving that anger. So we 51 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:22,400 Speaker 1: know people are upset about inequality, they're upset about racism, 52 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:26,240 Speaker 1: they're upset about corruption, things like that. Those are sort 53 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:30,280 Speaker 1: of individual things to be upset about, but what are 54 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 1: the trends driving those overall dynamics, right, and what are 55 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:38,880 Speaker 1: the consequences of them long term? Because you know, one 56 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:41,000 Speaker 1: of the things that we've been talking about on some 57 00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:47,080 Speaker 1: recent episodes is could this crisis create a policy ship, 58 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:51,240 Speaker 1: like meaningful changes from the way economic policy was conducted 59 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 1: pre crisis to post crisis, and a lot of that 60 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 1: look politicians, they are they're responsive to the public mood. 61 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:01,920 Speaker 1: And one of the interesting questions to my mind is 62 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 1: whether the changing public mood uh means that it's hard 63 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 1: to go back to the status quo or do we 64 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 1: just find a way to just sort of return to normal. 65 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 1: I think it's a huge question, and again one that 66 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:16,360 Speaker 1: has a lot of implications for the economy and asset 67 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 1: prices and markets. So I think even something is nebulous 68 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:23,200 Speaker 1: as a public anger, it's a pretty important thing to 69 00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:25,320 Speaker 1: wrap our head around, even if you're just sort of 70 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 1: looking at this from a pure sort of dollar since 71 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 1: since standpoint, Yeah, I think that's exactly right. And I'm 72 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:33,840 Speaker 1: glad you brought up the policy angle because I think 73 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 1: weirdly people seem to forget that the whole point of economics, 74 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 1: aside from explaining the way the economy works, is actually 75 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:45,560 Speaker 1: to boost prosperity and well being of people. Um And 76 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:49,159 Speaker 1: funnily enough, you don't you don't often see that said 77 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:52,120 Speaker 1: explicitly in economics. So today we are going to be 78 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 1: talking about what economics can teach us about why people 79 00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:01,360 Speaker 1: are so angry at the moment. And well, there's your clue. 80 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:04,560 Speaker 1: For our guest, We're going to bring on Eric Lonergan. 81 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:09,560 Speaker 1: He's the co author of a book appropriately titled Angry Nomics. 82 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 1: So Eric, thanks so much for coming on the podcast. Again, 83 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:16,040 Speaker 1: it's a real pleasure. Great, it talked about you. I'm 84 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:18,400 Speaker 1: just listening here intently. I mean, I should just just 85 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:21,000 Speaker 1: interview you guys on Anger, because I think you guys 86 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:23,240 Speaker 1: have got to work out. Great. Okay, Well it was 87 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:28,800 Speaker 1: nice talking to you. Appreciate you. No, what tell us 88 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:32,760 Speaker 1: about your new book? What's the what's the deal? Cool? Well, 89 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:36,680 Speaker 1: as you know, Mark and I are economists. You know, 90 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:39,400 Speaker 1: he's a he's a professor Brown University and political economy. 91 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 1: Mark Blythe is your co author. That's right, Yeah, Mark 92 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:45,440 Speaker 1: Blood the co author, and we gotta got to know 93 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:47,880 Speaker 1: each other. I think we met at a hedge fund 94 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:51,720 Speaker 1: conference ten years ago or something, and we just really 95 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:54,720 Speaker 1: hit it off. We had a lot in comment. We 96 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:58,160 Speaker 1: used to enjoy arguing and debating amongst ourselves, and we 97 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:00,320 Speaker 1: thought we had a kind of explanation for what was 98 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:02,480 Speaker 1: going on in the world, and we thought we'd write 99 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:05,479 Speaker 1: a book as a series of dialogues. And at one 100 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:07,840 Speaker 1: point Mark, we were about the third of the way through, 101 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:10,200 Speaker 1: to be honest, and he said, he said, what about Anger? 102 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:13,080 Speaker 1: And it was just one of those moments where we've 103 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:17,240 Speaker 1: just sort of paused and suddenly the kind of intellectual 104 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:21,599 Speaker 1: juice has got flowing because we suddenly realized, God, we 105 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:25,400 Speaker 1: don't really know anything about anger, right, It's just something 106 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:28,400 Speaker 1: that we all assume we know because at one level 107 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 1: we're all familiar with it. Even children know what anger is. 108 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:35,160 Speaker 1: And yet we found ourselves completely inarticulate on the subject. 109 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 1: And that is really interesting when you get something that's 110 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:42,240 Speaker 1: so commonplace and yet I couldn't tell you if you know, 111 00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:45,560 Speaker 1: I suddenly think, well, why do people get angry? You know, 112 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:49,880 Speaker 1: why anger rather than some other reaction? What types of 113 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:52,240 Speaker 1: anger are there? Is anger? Anger a good thing or 114 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:56,640 Speaker 1: a bad thing? Um? Suddenly I found I realized how 115 00:06:56,680 --> 00:07:00,520 Speaker 1: ignorant I was, and then we started. We decided to 116 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:02,800 Speaker 1: go off and research it, and it became a sort 117 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:07,040 Speaker 1: of fascinating pursuit, and that was really on the result 118 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 1: of that pursuit is the book. So before we talk 119 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:15,240 Speaker 1: about why people get angry, I'm curious, like you know, 120 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:18,480 Speaker 1: Tracy mentioned, you know, like we Tracy and I have 121 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:22,640 Speaker 1: jobs that basically consist of city at our computers all day, 122 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:26,440 Speaker 1: and you know, reading the news and writing emails and 123 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:30,640 Speaker 1: looking at Twitter, etcetera. Perhaps not the best way to 124 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:34,000 Speaker 1: view the world or view something like anger. Certainly feels 125 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:37,600 Speaker 1: like people are angrier than they have in the past, 126 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:44,120 Speaker 1: and they're certainly pretty compelling reasons why that anger is legitimate. 127 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:47,680 Speaker 1: But is that is our perception of the world accurate, 128 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:51,000 Speaker 1: like our people getting angrier? And how do you go 129 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:55,640 Speaker 1: about quantifying or actually answering that question. Yeah, so I 130 00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:57,480 Speaker 1: think that I think I said yes and no answer. 131 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:00,680 Speaker 1: I mean, I think anger is something that has existed 132 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 1: as long as there have been human beings, and that 133 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:05,560 Speaker 1: in of itself is an interesting question which maybe we'll 134 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:08,600 Speaker 1: get to touch upon, but that it must clearly serve 135 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:11,400 Speaker 1: some kind of function. And then there's another issue, which 136 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 1: is why is anger so prevalent currently? Is it particularly prevalent? 137 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 1: And I think we wouldn't say this is the angriest 138 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:25,000 Speaker 1: of times we've observed, really when things go significantly wrong economically, 139 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:27,720 Speaker 1: when there's as we just we described the economy in 140 00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:30,560 Speaker 1: the book as kind of hardware and software, and that 141 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:33,600 Speaker 1: the capitalist system in the sense is your hardware, and 142 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:37,120 Speaker 1: we've we've written new software every time it's had a 143 00:08:37,160 --> 00:08:40,640 Speaker 1: major crash. And every time you have a major crash, 144 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 1: because it affects people's lives, you get a kind of 145 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:48,200 Speaker 1: angry reaction and to some extent. What's interesting about you know, 146 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:50,200 Speaker 1: you referred in the production to two thousand eight and 147 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:52,760 Speaker 1: the Great Financial crisis is we would say there hasn't 148 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:55,200 Speaker 1: been a rewriting of the code. So in a sense, 149 00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:59,280 Speaker 1: the anger has just continued to bubble away under the 150 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:04,360 Speaker 1: surface and still hasn't been really addressed. Um. But I 151 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:07,240 Speaker 1: think the most in some ways the most interesting aspect 152 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:12,680 Speaker 1: of the book, which which people might find enlightening, is 153 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:17,679 Speaker 1: the different types of anger. So you know, and if 154 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:21,720 Speaker 1: you read the literature and anger, the original ideas about 155 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:24,240 Speaker 1: anger could date all the way back to Aristotle, and 156 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 1: to be honest, there there are still the main view 157 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:29,880 Speaker 1: of anger, even if you look at neuroscience today, and 158 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:33,079 Speaker 1: this is the idea of moral outrage, um. And this 159 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:35,559 Speaker 1: is kind of what Tracy was alluding to with Black 160 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:40,240 Speaker 1: Lives matter or you know, extinction rebellion. Even if you 161 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 1: think of you know, the views post financial crisis about 162 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:45,760 Speaker 1: the financial system. So these are this is a kind 163 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:51,160 Speaker 1: of ethical reaction to a perceived injustice or wrongdoing. But 164 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 1: that's really only one type of anger, maybe the one 165 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:57,160 Speaker 1: that people are sort of most obviously familiar with. What 166 00:09:57,280 --> 00:10:01,599 Speaker 1: could reference Eric, you mentioned this and I'm going to 167 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:04,720 Speaker 1: buy it, But what's the why do people get angry? 168 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:10,120 Speaker 1: What's the sort of evolutionary benefit of getting angry about something? Okay, Well, 169 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 1: so there seemed to us to be broadly the typology 170 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:15,920 Speaker 1: of anger that we came up with. So so we 171 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:17,840 Speaker 1: kind of then once we got to this point where 172 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:20,680 Speaker 1: we said, right, let's try and understand this thing, we 173 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:22,200 Speaker 1: realized we have to do a whole load of reading. 174 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:24,440 Speaker 1: So we kind of went away for six months and 175 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:29,599 Speaker 1: just read truckloads of research on on anger and that, 176 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:34,040 Speaker 1: which is fascinating. But there's no uniform, unifying typology. So 177 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 1: nowhere could we find a clear distinction of the different types. 178 00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:40,720 Speaker 1: So to cut along story short, we observed really the 179 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 1: following typology. First of all, this public and private anger, 180 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 1: and they appear to be opposites, and we can we 181 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:48,320 Speaker 1: can come back to that distinction. But the interesting one 182 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:51,720 Speaker 1: is between the types of public anger. So there appear 183 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:55,240 Speaker 1: to be two types of public anger. One is moral outrage, 184 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 1: which we've just described, and the other one, which we 185 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:01,600 Speaker 1: came to in the most is both obvious is and 186 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:04,679 Speaker 1: kind of mysterious, right, which, so we did a big 187 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 1: data search of news stories by categorized by anger, and 188 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:12,560 Speaker 1: the second most frequent type of news story which cites 189 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:17,440 Speaker 1: anger refers to angry sports fans. Mhm. Now, as soon 190 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:19,480 Speaker 1: as you say that, I mean, anybody who goes to 191 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 1: any sporting event immediately goes of course, did you really 192 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:26,120 Speaker 1: have to do a data certainty me, it's blinding the 193 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:29,720 Speaker 1: obviously when Marshall arrived uh and said show me this 194 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:32,560 Speaker 1: this strange human emotion at work, you know, I just 195 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:34,720 Speaker 1: go down and take them to watch a football match. 196 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:37,360 Speaker 1: And that was the really interesting moment, was when we 197 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:40,240 Speaker 1: suddenly discovered this, these two types of public anger. And 198 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 1: when you start to look into the research, there isn't 199 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:46,120 Speaker 1: really specific research and angry football fans as a kind 200 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:49,160 Speaker 1: of anger phenomenon. There's lots of research on football fans, 201 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:52,680 Speaker 1: but we started to look at it and work work 202 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:56,680 Speaker 1: out what function are they serving? And I started to 203 00:11:56,720 --> 00:11:59,120 Speaker 1: go to football matches and watch how fans were behaving 204 00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:01,040 Speaker 1: all the time, and I was interested in the football. 205 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:04,240 Speaker 1: And what was really interesting is they regulate their own 206 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:06,959 Speaker 1: team as much as they attack the opposition. So I 207 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:08,680 Speaker 1: don't know if you're familiar with this, but but certainly 208 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:10,720 Speaker 1: you'll see them shouting at their own players because they're 209 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 1: not They're not loyal enough or committed enough. We're saying 210 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:15,599 Speaker 1: I have been a season hit ticket holder for you, 211 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 1: or you should be singing. So this this whole loyalty 212 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:24,240 Speaker 1: identity regulation. And so we realize that there's this kind 213 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:28,520 Speaker 1: of there's an anger of angels, which is regulates our 214 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:31,160 Speaker 1: norms on our values and our sense of injustice. And 215 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:34,400 Speaker 1: then there's the anger of devils, which is tribal energy, 216 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:39,640 Speaker 1: and they are literally opposites because one requires us to 217 00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:42,480 Speaker 1: be ethical and the other one requires us to be 218 00:12:42,559 --> 00:12:46,080 Speaker 1: completely a moral and destroy the other. That is the 219 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:49,040 Speaker 1: functional role of kind of tribal energy. And if you 220 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:52,600 Speaker 1: put it in kind of as an economist, I'm immediately thinking, well, 221 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:55,680 Speaker 1: what function is this serving? And I realized it solves 222 00:12:55,679 --> 00:12:58,480 Speaker 1: the collective action problem. I've done a lot of studying 223 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:01,720 Speaker 1: of moral philosophy. The philosophy is kind of always a 224 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:04,400 Speaker 1: collective action problem because you can free ride in a 225 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:06,800 Speaker 1: sense you want other people to obey the norms and 226 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:09,280 Speaker 1: then reach from yourselves a bit like paying taxes. As 227 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:12,360 Speaker 1: long as every gales based your tax, you know, the 228 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:16,199 Speaker 1: individual is incentivized to a Vada taxation. So ethical questions 229 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:19,360 Speaker 1: are are are collective action ones? And what's really interesting 230 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:22,400 Speaker 1: is this idea of loss of temper is that we're 231 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:25,040 Speaker 1: threatening you with violence. So if you break our norm 232 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:27,880 Speaker 1: don't keep doing that. If you ignore us and carry 233 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 1: out this injustice, there's going to be a consequence. And 234 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:33,439 Speaker 1: you absolutely see that with with something like Black Lives Matter. 235 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:37,480 Speaker 1: There's a great reference to this by Cornell West where 236 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:39,520 Speaker 1: he was on CNN. I don't know if you've seen 237 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:43,120 Speaker 1: the YouTube video, it's it's well worth watching, and he says, 238 00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:45,680 Speaker 1: what would it say about our society if people weren't 239 00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:50,240 Speaker 1: out in the streets enraged and protesting when they've witnessed 240 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:54,079 Speaker 1: this level of police brutality. And that is actually Aristotle's 241 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:57,760 Speaker 1: view of anger. It's an appropriate response and a measure 242 00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:01,160 Speaker 1: of our sense of ethics and values. So that's the 243 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:04,000 Speaker 1: one function. Now the other one, why the hell do 244 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:07,200 Speaker 1: we do we go all tribal? And I think that's 245 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:10,000 Speaker 1: because for most of human evolution we existed under conditions 246 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:13,120 Speaker 1: of scarcity. And this is really interesting when you map 247 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:16,200 Speaker 1: it onto politics, because how did the tribal is manipulate you? 248 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:19,920 Speaker 1: Is they give you a false sense of scarcity. You know, 249 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 1: immigrants are taking your jobs, that bins are affecting your wages. Um, 250 00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:30,000 Speaker 1: it's almost boils down to land rights. So I think 251 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 1: that the reason, from an evolutionary perspective, we formed these 252 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 1: kind of tribal groups is because periodically we did actually 253 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 1: have to go to war because there was a scarcity 254 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 1: of resource. And we still have that highly that instinct 255 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:48,240 Speaker 1: which is we're on the verge of triggering so easily, 256 00:14:49,240 --> 00:15:07,000 Speaker 1: which is this kind of tribal identity. So the title 257 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:11,640 Speaker 1: of the book is angry Nomics, and you've broken down 258 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:14,720 Speaker 1: anger into these sort of two types of categories. There's 259 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 1: the tribal instinct keeping uh people online a sort of 260 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:22,320 Speaker 1: solution of the collective action problem, and then moral anger 261 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 1: about anger directed at injustice. But talk to us further. 262 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:29,800 Speaker 1: I mean, obviously you just mentioned the sort of the 263 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:34,040 Speaker 1: history that all humans have with scarcity. But why angry nomics? 264 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:37,680 Speaker 1: How else does it sort of apply to our understanding 265 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:41,080 Speaker 1: of the economy, particularly today's economy. Yeah, well so so 266 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 1: the so the other really interesting kind of discovery when 267 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:47,640 Speaker 1: we went on this journey is you have these two faces, 268 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 1: this this angelic and devilish face of public anger, which 269 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:55,520 Speaker 1: which which I think plays a role in our political economy, 270 00:15:56,480 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 1: which is very important. But then you also have pry 271 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:02,920 Speaker 1: at anger, which is which occurs in our personal lives, 272 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:07,000 Speaker 1: which again seems to be qualitatively different to public anger. 273 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:09,280 Speaker 1: So in other ways, if you stop somebody on an 274 00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:12,560 Speaker 1: extinction rebellion protest and you say why are you angry, 275 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:15,560 Speaker 1: they're just as likely to say, well, why aren't you angry? 276 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:19,600 Speaker 1: Because look at the environmental degradation that's occurring. You know, 277 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:22,920 Speaker 1: there's no concern for future generations. Look at the destruction 278 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:25,720 Speaker 1: to damage the human cost of suffering. Right, So they 279 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:29,880 Speaker 1: give you reasons, and they are almost there's almost a 280 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:33,720 Speaker 1: pride associated with the moral righteousness. Now, if you can 281 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:37,160 Speaker 1: imagine if you have a colleague who comes in to work, 282 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:40,720 Speaker 1: if we ever come into work again or just suddenly 283 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:44,480 Speaker 1: starts appearing on Twitter ranting and raving at everybody, um, 284 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:46,680 Speaker 1: you might take them to one side and say, listen, 285 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:51,080 Speaker 1: is everything okay? Right? So, in our private lives, anger 286 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:54,840 Speaker 1: is usually indicative of something that's going wrong internally. That's 287 00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:58,000 Speaker 1: not uniformly the case, but but very often. So we've 288 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:01,480 Speaker 1: kind of now got a macro and a growth, and 289 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 1: we were then interested in how do how does this 290 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:09,120 Speaker 1: public and private anger interact with the economy. And so 291 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:12,359 Speaker 1: we've got a kind of macro political economy story, and 292 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 1: then we've got a microeconomic consequences, which we think maybe 293 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:20,760 Speaker 1: some of the changes in our micro economies have actually 294 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:26,080 Speaker 1: had consequences for stress levels, anxiety, the epidemic that's occurring 295 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:28,200 Speaker 1: if you look in mental health in the developed world, 296 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:32,920 Speaker 1: there may be economics might have contributed to those philomenals. 297 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:36,239 Speaker 1: So one of the things I always wonder, particularly with 298 00:17:36,359 --> 00:17:40,640 Speaker 1: reference to US politics, is why so many people get 299 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:45,720 Speaker 1: really angry about policies that would seemingly actually benefit them 300 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:49,440 Speaker 1: as a social group. So you know, for instance, Republican 301 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:53,640 Speaker 1: voters have traditionally been told that big government is very, 302 00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:57,600 Speaker 1: very bad, even though they would arguably benefit from additional 303 00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:02,000 Speaker 1: government spending. What is your study of anger tell you 304 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:06,920 Speaker 1: about that dynamic? I mean, that is a great question. 305 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:09,720 Speaker 1: And actually nobody has asked me that. I've been doing 306 00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:11,879 Speaker 1: a lot of stuff on the book, and nobody has 307 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 1: asked me that, And that is a really interesting question. Um, 308 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:19,080 Speaker 1: And maybe a couple of observations because I don't have 309 00:18:19,119 --> 00:18:21,959 Speaker 1: a complete answer to that, but I have some thoughts 310 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:23,639 Speaker 1: and I'd be interested to know what you guys think, 311 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:27,840 Speaker 1: because that's a really interesting question. One is that I 312 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:30,600 Speaker 1: think part of the reason we are seeing so much 313 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:33,879 Speaker 1: anger in our politics at the moment is what Mark 314 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:36,800 Speaker 1: and I have thought of as a kind of identity vacuum, 315 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:39,720 Speaker 1: which is, if you go back twenty or thirty years ago, 316 00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:45,200 Speaker 1: people were very motivated by intellectual ideas in their politics. 317 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:48,200 Speaker 1: You know, the right and the left really meant something 318 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 1: where you pro the state or pro the market. Um, 319 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:56,840 Speaker 1: you know, did you want to privatize industries or nationalized industries? 320 00:18:57,080 --> 00:19:00,600 Speaker 1: And you felt that your political representatives were really making 321 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:04,480 Speaker 1: a they represented you in a real sense, but also 322 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:06,639 Speaker 1: they would make a difference if they got into power. 323 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:08,399 Speaker 1: And we think one of the things that happens is 324 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:11,119 Speaker 1: when when the move towards the center for once the 325 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:14,239 Speaker 1: better term or just kind of this liberal consensus in 326 00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:17,679 Speaker 1: the economic sense of the word liberal, meant that we 327 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:21,080 Speaker 1: lost our motivation so people, and you can see this 328 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:25,080 Speaker 1: empirically in terms of voter turnout. Now, the political class, 329 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:28,879 Speaker 1: the political elite are still incentivized to get electric, so 330 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:31,639 Speaker 1: they have to find the means to motivate us. And 331 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:34,359 Speaker 1: someone like Trump is really phenomenal at this if you 332 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:37,440 Speaker 1: look at it through the lens of angry nomics, because 333 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:40,520 Speaker 1: angry people are more likely to vote, and elections are 334 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:43,760 Speaker 1: won by minorities. And he he only needs to motivate 335 00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:46,080 Speaker 1: a d thousand people to win the presidential election, which 336 00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:48,760 Speaker 1: is what he did. If he can trigger that AD 337 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:54,280 Speaker 1: thousand angry people, uh, he can win. And he he 338 00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:59,600 Speaker 1: will effortlessly switch between moral outrage and tribal rage, so 339 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:01,600 Speaker 1: he'll go out of the rust bait at rust belt 340 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:05,439 Speaker 1: and actually use ethical arguments. I mean, I am your voice, 341 00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:10,720 Speaker 1: he I'm your representative, I am listening to you. Um. 342 00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:13,880 Speaker 1: And then you know, talking about the industrialization, the decline 343 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:18,680 Speaker 1: of American manufacturing, the fact that the the elites in 344 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:21,040 Speaker 1: Washington aren't listening to you, aren't paying at any attention 345 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:23,959 Speaker 1: to you. These are all effectively ethical arguments. And then 346 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 1: he will effortlessly switch to talking about marauding Mexicans and 347 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:32,480 Speaker 1: building walls in a constituency where there is tension associated 348 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:35,639 Speaker 1: with ethnicity or where these issues are are relevant. So 349 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:39,040 Speaker 1: I think that's where there's there's no doubt that in 350 00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:42,560 Speaker 1: that sense we are being manipulated. However, even though there 351 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:47,919 Speaker 1: is a clear distinction analytically between moral outrage and tribal energy, 352 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:51,560 Speaker 1: as as we all know when you get involved in politics, 353 00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 1: and I think this is particularly insightful in America. What 354 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:58,880 Speaker 1: starts off as sort of disagreements over policies very quickly 355 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:02,600 Speaker 1: become of that part of tribal identity. So that's something 356 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:06,160 Speaker 1: that does intrigue me is how our propensity to take 357 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:10,280 Speaker 1: sides is so strong that even when it comes to 358 00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:14,360 Speaker 1: issues of ethics, we almost want to be on a site, right, 359 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:17,560 Speaker 1: and so politics can very quickly to say and I 360 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:19,720 Speaker 1: think that's one of the ways you actually get people 361 00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:24,080 Speaker 1: to support things that are against their interests is by 362 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:28,639 Speaker 1: giving them the impression that you're on their side. So 363 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:30,760 Speaker 1: one of the I mean, one of the interesting things 364 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:35,879 Speaker 1: about the Trump phenomenon is that despite his ability to 365 00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:40,199 Speaker 1: appeal to different types of anger, which is a politician, 366 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:45,800 Speaker 1: he's extremely good at and arguably channeling a lot of 367 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:50,560 Speaker 1: people's anger, nothing much like has really changed from a 368 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:56,360 Speaker 1: sort of like economic policy perspective during his administration. I mean, like, yes, 369 00:21:56,880 --> 00:22:00,040 Speaker 1: the trade tension with China has been ratcheted up. It 370 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:05,639 Speaker 1: mostly it entails China buying more soybeans, and nothing fundamental 371 00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:09,120 Speaker 1: about our trading relationship with the world. Nothing major changing 372 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:13,719 Speaker 1: on the taxation front, except that wealthy people who you know, 373 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 1: are not the people that he's going talking about immigrants 374 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:20,800 Speaker 1: to they got a tax break and so forth. What 375 00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:24,320 Speaker 1: does it take for anger, the anger that we're all 376 00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:27,879 Speaker 1: talking about, to actually channel into Wow, this is a 377 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:30,760 Speaker 1: very different set of policies than the status quo, because 378 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:33,600 Speaker 1: right now, for all the rising anger in America, there's 379 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:37,440 Speaker 1: been a certain certain especially on the economic front, sort 380 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:41,639 Speaker 1: of established status quo of democratic and republican administrations. It 381 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:45,639 Speaker 1: just hasn't changed very much despite all kinds of changes 382 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:47,960 Speaker 1: to the world. Well, this is another great question, and 383 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:51,200 Speaker 1: in a sense that that the final third of the 384 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:55,600 Speaker 1: book tries to to say, Okay, what are we gonna 385 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 1: do about this? You know, are we just you know, 386 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:02,480 Speaker 1: we can't accept ultimately the populism and tribalism reigns. And 387 00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:05,520 Speaker 1: also because tribalism is a precursor ultimately to some form 388 00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:08,680 Speaker 1: of violence, that's the function it serves. And I think 389 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:13,439 Speaker 1: the challenge to politics now is actually to tap into 390 00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:19,080 Speaker 1: the moral outrage, but converted into ideas that are tangible, 391 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:23,280 Speaker 1: could across partisan device and will actually change people's daily lives, 392 00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:27,160 Speaker 1: so you can really motivate people to care about elections. 393 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:28,760 Speaker 1: And in a sense, I would say the challenge that 394 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:34,560 Speaker 1: Trump has posed to his opponents is where is your bravery? 395 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:37,920 Speaker 1: Because we we gener we need politicians who are willing 396 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:41,120 Speaker 1: to take risks and be brave. And I think there's 397 00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:43,360 Speaker 1: a great opportunity to do this because I think there 398 00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:48,640 Speaker 1: are three questions around which there is a huge consensus. 399 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:53,960 Speaker 1: One is about sustainable economic growth and sustaining the planet 400 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:56,840 Speaker 1: for future generations. Like I think there is an overwhelming 401 00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 1: local consensus that we need to do something about it. 402 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:03,160 Speaker 1: There's an overwhelming global consensus that the levels of inequality 403 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:06,760 Speaker 1: have reached a point that they are dysfunctional. It cannot 404 00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:10,399 Speaker 1: be an optimally functioning society where assets held by one 405 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:13,080 Speaker 1: percent of the population. That makes no sense. And the 406 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:15,680 Speaker 1: other area of complete agreement is that nobody thinks for 407 00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:18,440 Speaker 1: sessions are a good idea, apart from a few nutters. Okay, 408 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:22,160 Speaker 1: so there's so there are three huge issues. The problem 409 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:27,919 Speaker 1: is that no political party has got three policies that 410 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:31,359 Speaker 1: everybody understands which are going to change all of those 411 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:36,800 Speaker 1: really quickly. And I would blame I blame my own profession. 412 00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:39,640 Speaker 1: I blame the politicians. I blame the intellectuals. I blame 413 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:43,480 Speaker 1: the economists because we're all complaining. We can all identify 414 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:46,280 Speaker 1: what the problems are, but nobody has really put enough 415 00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:52,119 Speaker 1: thinking into simple cut across partisan lines, big changes to 416 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:54,320 Speaker 1: those mark as. It has a great line here, which 417 00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:57,080 Speaker 1: is he hates the word policy because you know policy, 418 00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:59,000 Speaker 1: you come up with thirty different policies to tweet this 419 00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:01,639 Speaker 1: and njuice into the And he says, what we need 420 00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:03,439 Speaker 1: to do. We need to be furniture makers. We need 421 00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:06,800 Speaker 1: to rearrange the furniture because it's furniture that determines the 422 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:09,800 Speaker 1: relationships between people and the conversations that they are and 423 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:12,240 Speaker 1: really changes things. And I think we need a major 424 00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:15,800 Speaker 1: change in how we've we've fixed our furniture right. We 425 00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:19,439 Speaker 1: need to rearrange the furniture and side so that people 426 00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:23,760 Speaker 1: care enough to get out and vote for matter. Ultimately, 427 00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:41,359 Speaker 1: what are ethical questions? So the onus, I mean the 428 00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:46,200 Speaker 1: onus on solving his anger problem is clearly on policymakers. 429 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:49,040 Speaker 1: But at the same time it feels like people are 430 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:55,199 Speaker 1: angry at the policymakers themselves. How do we rectify that 431 00:25:55,760 --> 00:26:00,360 Speaker 1: tension and is there room I guess for UM more 432 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:06,760 Speaker 1: like direct participation or populism in these policy solutions. And 433 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:09,480 Speaker 1: you know, I say that having observed that one of 434 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:13,440 Speaker 1: the things that Trump is very good at is disparaging experts, 435 00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:19,720 Speaker 1: disparaging UM public officials, casting doubt on those exact policymakers. 436 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:23,000 Speaker 1: Who's been really really good at that? So I don't know, 437 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:25,720 Speaker 1: how do you how do you get policymakers to solve 438 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:30,080 Speaker 1: the anger problem when they are the targets of anger themselves. Well, 439 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 1: I mean this, this probably reflects my bias, but I 440 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:35,560 Speaker 1: think we need I think there's been a vacuum of ideas. 441 00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:38,440 Speaker 1: So I think it's been far too easy to criticize 442 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 1: the politicians. Um. But but I just asked myself. You know, 443 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:45,320 Speaker 1: if I say, most of the mainstream politicians over the 444 00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:48,480 Speaker 1: last twenty years, they have not had an answer to 445 00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:51,080 Speaker 1: the environmental problem, they haven't had an answer to the 446 00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:54,240 Speaker 1: problem of recessions with just in another one with catastrophic 447 00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:56,840 Speaker 1: human costs associated with it, and they've done nothing about 448 00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:59,720 Speaker 1: any quality. So they should not be surprised. It's a 449 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:03,040 Speaker 1: plea to me. It's a failing of ideas and the mind, 450 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:05,919 Speaker 1: you know, and Joe has been a big promoter of 451 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:09,560 Speaker 1: the ideas of MMT, and I would say, other than MMT, 452 00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:12,200 Speaker 1: where are the ideas? You know? And I have huge 453 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:13,840 Speaker 1: you know, I've had I've had a to and fro 454 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:16,359 Speaker 1: relationship with them. But but you know, I'm a huge 455 00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:18,919 Speaker 1: fan of Stephanie Gelton. I think she's one of the 456 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:22,120 Speaker 1: few economists he has done an extraordinary job at making 457 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:26,040 Speaker 1: these ideas accessible to people. And they've got real ideas 458 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 1: to which I think are broadly correct, which I agree 459 00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:33,719 Speaker 1: on the most important features with them, which could make 460 00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:35,760 Speaker 1: a real difference. And I think there's a group of 461 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:39,240 Speaker 1: people coming out of Europe who do as well. You know, 462 00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:41,719 Speaker 1: I think people like Philip Blaine at ECP. People are 463 00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:43,920 Speaker 1: even and I think the ideas of Mark Simon rhyn 464 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:46,520 Speaker 1: lewis there. There. There's a whole series of I think 465 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:50,800 Speaker 1: we've got three or four ideas Roger Farmer um, you know, 466 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:54,840 Speaker 1: on national wealth funds, on changing the way central banks operate, 467 00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:58,840 Speaker 1: on dual interest rates. These are really simple ideas that 468 00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:02,120 Speaker 1: would have a dramatic gampacts on our economies and societies, 469 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:05,480 Speaker 1: but they're very they're they're currently the domain of a 470 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:09,800 Speaker 1: tiny minority of thinkers they are spreading. But we need 471 00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:11,840 Speaker 1: to kind of wake up more generally and realize how 472 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:15,560 Speaker 1: origin today is. Tracy always trolls me for bringing up 473 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:18,240 Speaker 1: m MT, but this is the second This is the 474 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:21,320 Speaker 1: second episode in a row where I didn't bring it up, 475 00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:24,560 Speaker 1: but the guests did, like sort of like preempted. So 476 00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:27,679 Speaker 1: I just wanna you know, it's not always me who 477 00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:30,280 Speaker 1: brings it up, but you you you, I think you're 478 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:34,840 Speaker 1: colluding ahead of the episode, I'll tell you the text layer. 479 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:37,240 Speaker 1: I'm not sending d m s with Eric while we have, 480 00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:42,000 Speaker 1: but but I want to you said something really interesting 481 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:46,640 Speaker 1: and mmt aside, I do think you hit on something 482 00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:49,600 Speaker 1: really I think to hit on something really interesting, which 483 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:53,360 Speaker 1: is that I think you compare the quality of the 484 00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:57,600 Speaker 1: economic discussion this time around, uh, this crisis versus two 485 00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:00,800 Speaker 1: thousand and two. THO, it is some you better. There 486 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:04,880 Speaker 1: are so many like in the sort of like editorial pages, 487 00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:09,280 Speaker 1: in even politicians, central bankers. It just feels like there's 488 00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:12,200 Speaker 1: a higher quality of understanding. And maybe it's because of 489 00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:14,560 Speaker 1: we just went through the last crisis. Maybe it's because 490 00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:18,320 Speaker 1: of some sort of more heterodox thinkers having made headway 491 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:21,640 Speaker 1: in the mainstream debate. It just feels though that like 492 00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:25,920 Speaker 1: there is less crankery and a more sophisticated understanding of 493 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:29,560 Speaker 1: how these various policy tools work than we had ten 494 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:33,200 Speaker 1: years ago. And I'm curious if you feel the same way. Absolutely, 495 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:36,720 Speaker 1: it's a great observation. One of the you know, there 496 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:40,720 Speaker 1: there's things about human progress is you know, we CanCERN 497 00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:43,000 Speaker 1: disaster to our advantage. I mean, I think things would 498 00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:45,040 Speaker 1: be an awful lot worse now if we hadn't had 499 00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:49,000 Speaker 1: two thousand a night, ironically, because we've done an awful 500 00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:51,640 Speaker 1: lot of thinking since then, not nearly enough. You know, 501 00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:54,360 Speaker 1: I still think, you know, the whole of the monetary 502 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:58,800 Speaker 1: policy is absurd, which is why the hell we're trying 503 00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:03,160 Speaker 1: to in of ven on a vast scale and asset 504 00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:06,320 Speaker 1: markets to solve a really simple problem, which is trying 505 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:09,200 Speaker 1: to stabilize how so corporate incomes, which we should just 506 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:11,960 Speaker 1: do directly, and why we've wasted a decade not putting 507 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:14,520 Speaker 1: in place the infrastructure when you know, we have how 508 00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:16,760 Speaker 1: many articles do we have to write on this for 509 00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:18,280 Speaker 1: somebody to go, yeah, it might be a good idea 510 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:22,400 Speaker 1: to prepare for a recession, right exactly, it's ridiculous when 511 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:23,840 Speaker 1: you think about and then we end up saying, well, 512 00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:27,280 Speaker 1: the massive intervention in the corporate market and the equity market, 513 00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:31,440 Speaker 1: the vast amount of balance feed expansion, because we're hoping 514 00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:34,360 Speaker 1: about a tiny amount of it trickles over into the 515 00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:37,160 Speaker 1: real economy. But you know, that's on the negative side. 516 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:39,800 Speaker 1: But on the positive side, you're absolutely, absolutely right, the 517 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:45,280 Speaker 1: debate has has come forward considerably. Just on that note, 518 00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:49,480 Speaker 1: And you know, going back to your hardware versus software analogy, 519 00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:53,320 Speaker 1: what are the chances that after this crisis we get 520 00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:56,480 Speaker 1: some sort of hardware upgrade or you know, a real 521 00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:59,959 Speaker 1: dramatic shift in the economic system versus you know, an 522 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:06,560 Speaker 1: other short term software patch. I'm hopeful because I think 523 00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:10,040 Speaker 1: and again this is one of just the random, marbitrary 524 00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:13,360 Speaker 1: facts of life. Is so it's interesting we go through 525 00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:17,000 Speaker 1: the kind of history of of of capitalism and the 526 00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:21,320 Speaker 1: hardware crashes, and this the kind of capitalism one point 527 00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:24,160 Speaker 1: pre war, two point post war where you have the 528 00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 1: welfare state and then kind of mixed economy, and then 529 00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:28,440 Speaker 1: three point oh, which was kind of the year of 530 00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:32,360 Speaker 1: neoliberalism and kind of rolling back of the involvement of 531 00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:34,560 Speaker 1: the state. And we're really saying we need a four 532 00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:37,240 Speaker 1: point oh. And I think what's odd in the sense 533 00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:39,000 Speaker 1: is why didn't we get a four point out after 534 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:41,200 Speaker 1: the financial crisis. And for me, the reason for that 535 00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:43,000 Speaker 1: is we didn't have one to take off the shelf. 536 00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:46,120 Speaker 1: I mean, we had Kanes post war, and then we 537 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:49,120 Speaker 1: had Friedman in the eighties and nineties, so there actually 538 00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:52,200 Speaker 1: was there was a new operating system you could take 539 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:54,920 Speaker 1: off the shelf. I think the operating system is being 540 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:59,080 Speaker 1: constructed now, and it's part of the m m T debate. 541 00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:01,880 Speaker 1: It's part of the debate about sovereign wealth funds, national 542 00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:04,840 Speaker 1: wealth funds, these changes to monetary policy, whether it's helicopter 543 00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:10,040 Speaker 1: money in various sorts, and absolutely the challenge of sustainable growth. 544 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:13,480 Speaker 1: So I think we're getting there. And the other thing 545 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:17,320 Speaker 1: that makes me optimistic about this, and this is always 546 00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:22,000 Speaker 1: the way humans operate is One good thing about reverting 547 00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:26,600 Speaker 1: to kind of nation level decision making is we have tens, 548 00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:29,680 Speaker 1: if not hundreds of nations experimenting with the same problems. 549 00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:32,600 Speaker 1: As soon as one of them takes a leap and 550 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:36,480 Speaker 1: embarks on one of these policies and it's shown to succeed, 551 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:40,360 Speaker 1: everybody else will copy because the risk for politicians shift 552 00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:43,280 Speaker 1: at the moment. Politicians are risk averse. You know, I'm 553 00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:44,960 Speaker 1: trying to get the Irish just set of a national 554 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:46,880 Speaker 1: wealthfund of the amount. It's so clear to me the 555 00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:48,800 Speaker 1: politicians want to wait until somebody else does it, so 556 00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:50,320 Speaker 1: they'll see how it works and then they'll do it. 557 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:53,480 Speaker 1: You know. But and and that's the but if somebody 558 00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:56,920 Speaker 1: does it and it works, the psychology completely changes because 559 00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:59,840 Speaker 1: suddenly then you're an idiot for not doing it right. 560 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:02,840 Speaker 1: It's a bit like investing. So I think we've got 561 00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:06,640 Speaker 1: half a chance. Now. There are some genuinely interesting ideas 562 00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:10,360 Speaker 1: out there that are relatively simple, would be very very effective, 563 00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:13,800 Speaker 1: and once somebody does them that there could easily be 564 00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:17,720 Speaker 1: a kind of domino and they become conventional wisdom to me, 565 00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:21,800 Speaker 1: And this is uh, you know, I've got obsessed with 566 00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:27,360 Speaker 1: his question, which is does the post crisis period actually change? 567 00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:29,600 Speaker 1: You know, I think, you know, from the perspective of markets, 568 00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:31,720 Speaker 1: which is what we talk about most of the time, 569 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:34,880 Speaker 1: we've sort of been in this world in which sort 570 00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:39,320 Speaker 1: of conventional central bank policy is primarily what we use. 571 00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:42,880 Speaker 1: And as you mentioned, historically, it's a very blunt tool 572 00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:47,480 Speaker 1: it's either interest rates or sort of propping up financial assets. 573 00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:51,200 Speaker 1: More broadly, it's not great for real economic growth. That 574 00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:55,640 Speaker 1: doesn't do that much for actually stabilizing household incomes or 575 00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:59,000 Speaker 1: business incomes, which is the key. And so to me, 576 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:02,920 Speaker 1: the big question Shin is do we get policies post 577 00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:07,560 Speaker 1: prices that are sustained. It really looked different from the 578 00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:11,560 Speaker 1: sort of like central bank rate policy dominated status quo, 579 00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:14,279 Speaker 1: and it sounds like, you know, you think there's a 580 00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:16,960 Speaker 1: real chance of that. I do, because I think the 581 00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:20,279 Speaker 1: difference reads to a decade ago is those policies are 582 00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:24,040 Speaker 1: now out there, so they the code has been written, 583 00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:26,319 Speaker 1: and it's just a question that you've taken it off 584 00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:29,920 Speaker 1: the shelf and upgrading because I think now we've had 585 00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:32,319 Speaker 1: enough time and there's been enough debate, and there's an 586 00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:35,960 Speaker 1: and there's a building consensus. I mean, you know, you 587 00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:38,319 Speaker 1: know this jokes because you followed some of my left 588 00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:40,120 Speaker 1: field ideas. But you know, when I first started about 589 00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:42,719 Speaker 1: by the idea of transferring cash to households, it was 590 00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:45,759 Speaker 1: a completely fringe idea for central pranks. You know, now 591 00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:49,160 Speaker 1: I've got Stanley Fisher philippil Brand writing a piece work 592 00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:52,400 Speaker 1: for black Rock saying the European central banks should think 593 00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:55,839 Speaker 1: about doing perpetual teltras that you know you've got. Those 594 00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:59,920 Speaker 1: two are probably about us conservative mainstream representation being call 595 00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:03,479 Speaker 1: as you can get. Still hasn't been done, but that's 596 00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:05,440 Speaker 1: a huge shift. I mean, if you look at the 597 00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:07,359 Speaker 1: debate about m MT, I mean when I first came 598 00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:10,560 Speaker 1: across m MT, you know, maybe ten than years ago, 599 00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:14,279 Speaker 1: it was complete fringe. Now most people go, it's like 600 00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:16,880 Speaker 1: Caine said, you know, first of all they dismiss you. 601 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:18,719 Speaker 1: Then then they say, that's what they always they thought 602 00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:22,000 Speaker 1: all along. A lot of what Stephanie has been arguing 603 00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:24,640 Speaker 1: people now. But but I always believe that, Yeah, now 604 00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:28,200 Speaker 1: you have US basketball players um talking about m m T. 605 00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:31,960 Speaker 1: We gotta again, we gotta get deal with the on 606 00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:35,480 Speaker 1: the program. But you know, I would like I'd like 607 00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:38,200 Speaker 1: them to embrace some bigger ideas though as well. You know, 608 00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:41,160 Speaker 1: I think they needed, they needed to look at what's 609 00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:44,200 Speaker 1: happening in Europe too, because I think there are you know, 610 00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:45,920 Speaker 1: and again, so to me, like one thing that's really 611 00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:49,640 Speaker 1: fascinating there if I can, like Stephanie to me, and 612 00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:53,719 Speaker 1: again this is testament to her insight focusing on institutional 613 00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:56,600 Speaker 1: functions was fall on about Europe. Now, I wasn't aware 614 00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:59,399 Speaker 1: of her work at the time, but kind of independently 615 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:02,319 Speaker 1: a number of us has come to a similar conclusion here, 616 00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:05,080 Speaker 1: because the problem in Europe is the Italy CAPTURENT money. 617 00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:07,880 Speaker 1: It's as simple as that. So the reason Italy has 618 00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:10,640 Speaker 1: a public death problem in Japan doesn't is because it 619 00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:13,480 Speaker 1: really can't create bank reserves. So it really it's almost 620 00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:16,880 Speaker 1: dependent on the kindness of strangers, the stranger being the 621 00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:20,799 Speaker 1: central Bank sitting in frankfurt Um in order to stabilize 622 00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:23,440 Speaker 1: it's it's market. But but it does mean in a 623 00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:26,600 Speaker 1: sense that you know a lot of the recommendations and 624 00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:29,960 Speaker 1: framework them, and we're advocating our contingent on the fact 625 00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:33,799 Speaker 1: that you can create bank reserves, and that really, to 626 00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:35,680 Speaker 1: me just doesn't work in Europe. We have to accept it. 627 00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:37,080 Speaker 1: You know, we're not going to change you think you're 628 00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:40,239 Speaker 1: not gonna reown the CB at a national level, so 629 00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:43,000 Speaker 1: that as a result we've had to think about different 630 00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:47,319 Speaker 1: ways of approaching these problems. Mhm. I have a more 631 00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:51,160 Speaker 1: philosophical question, which is, you know, your study of anger 632 00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:55,520 Speaker 1: basically shows that there's a reason it exists, So assuming 633 00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:58,400 Speaker 1: that we do get some sort of major shift in 634 00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:03,040 Speaker 1: policy that is supposed to make people more happy, do 635 00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:05,160 Speaker 1: you think people are just going to move on to 636 00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:10,080 Speaker 1: the next thing to be outraged about. Absolutely, you know, 637 00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:12,280 Speaker 1: I mean, this is what you do realize. I guess 638 00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:15,920 Speaker 1: one of the reasons humans keep on keep going ahead 639 00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:19,839 Speaker 1: is that we do focus on what's wrong. The bit 640 00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:21,880 Speaker 1: that really worries and I have to say is if 641 00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:26,080 Speaker 1: you read the social psychology literature on there's a there's 642 00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:30,080 Speaker 1: a theory called the minimal groups paradigm, which were studies 643 00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:33,919 Speaker 1: done in the nineties sixties, and they're completely convincing about 644 00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:37,160 Speaker 1: the little difference it takes to get people to form tribes. 645 00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:40,719 Speaker 1: So they did studies of children in classrooms and and 646 00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:43,960 Speaker 1: literally you can go put up a two paintings of 647 00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:46,520 Speaker 1: two abstract artists and say which painting do you like, 648 00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:48,400 Speaker 1: and split the room into two groups. So it's a 649 00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:51,719 Speaker 1: totally arbitrary distinction, and they will then make decisions to 650 00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:55,600 Speaker 1: punish the other group. And unfortunately, this is a real 651 00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:58,080 Speaker 1: challenge I think that we have as a society is 652 00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:01,800 Speaker 1: that we are it's such an instinct to form little 653 00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:05,319 Speaker 1: tribes and little groups, which is why I think the 654 00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:07,960 Speaker 1: only thing that we can do is make people aware 655 00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:10,280 Speaker 1: of that. I mean, I think that that exercise should 656 00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:13,279 Speaker 1: be taught in all schools to be very wary of 657 00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:16,560 Speaker 1: politicians telling you and people pushing you into a little 658 00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:19,880 Speaker 1: group or a tribe, because it's the antithesis of thought. 659 00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:23,520 Speaker 1: We need independence of thought and critical thought. And it's 660 00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:28,480 Speaker 1: ultimately the antithesis of ethical behavior because it's it's actually 661 00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:31,360 Speaker 1: a precursor for violence. And that's the bit that does worry, 662 00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:33,840 Speaker 1: and that's where I think, you know, the book is 663 00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:36,440 Speaker 1: trying to tackle multiple levels, and part of it our 664 00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:39,440 Speaker 1: practical solutions, but also part of it is about awareness. 665 00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:41,360 Speaker 1: And I think if you do study anger and you 666 00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:46,120 Speaker 1: look into how groups form, you know, you just realize 667 00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:49,120 Speaker 1: the extent which you yourself are vulnerable to tribalism, but 668 00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:51,520 Speaker 1: also the extent of which people are being manipulated all 669 00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:56,839 Speaker 1: of the time. Eric, that's been an absolutely fascinating conversation. 670 00:38:57,320 --> 00:38:59,720 Speaker 1: Thank you so much, and again, the book is angry 671 00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:03,800 Speaker 1: not Thank you, Eric. That was great. Well, thank you 672 00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:06,160 Speaker 1: both very much. I really really enjoyed it, and I 673 00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:09,799 Speaker 1: love your podcast. Well. I love everything that you guys did, 674 00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:20,799 Speaker 1: So keep up the good work. To kind of appreciate it. So, Joe, 675 00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:23,480 Speaker 1: I thought that was a really good discussion. And what 676 00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:26,720 Speaker 1: I really like about Eric's book is that he goes 677 00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:30,560 Speaker 1: into that psychology of anger and goes, you know, all 678 00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:34,680 Speaker 1: the way back to the early days of human beings 679 00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:39,320 Speaker 1: to sort of trace the evolutionary meaning and purpose of anger. 680 00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:42,640 Speaker 1: You don't get that in an economics book that often, no, 681 00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:45,239 Speaker 1: you don't, but I think his um, I think his 682 00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:48,920 Speaker 1: taxolomy of anger is sort of the difference between moral 683 00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:54,560 Speaker 1: righteous anger anger at injustice versus anger designed to keep 684 00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:57,680 Speaker 1: people in line is really interesting and useful because I think, 685 00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:02,480 Speaker 1: like anger, it kind of has an negative connotation or 686 00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:05,560 Speaker 1: it's a bad emotion. I mean, it feels bad, but 687 00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:08,319 Speaker 1: it's seen as something that you should avoid it. But 688 00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:11,920 Speaker 1: think about what its purposes. It's purposed in making the 689 00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:16,120 Speaker 1: world better in many cases is useful and again, you know, 690 00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:19,239 Speaker 1: just bring it back to our context, like what it 691 00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:23,040 Speaker 1: means for policy is gonna be a huge question. Yeah, 692 00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:25,919 Speaker 1: an instrument of change. And it's also interesting that Eric 693 00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:30,439 Speaker 1: thinks there is after the coronavirus crisis, a real possibility 694 00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:35,640 Speaker 1: of getting something substantial amended um in the economic system. 695 00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:38,480 Speaker 1: That's pretty interesting. Yeah, I'm hopeful for that because, like 696 00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:42,279 Speaker 1: I said, and it does feel like there's progress the 697 00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:44,680 Speaker 1: converce I remember, you know two eight like that. I 698 00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:47,120 Speaker 1: think about like the stuff I listened to back then 699 00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:50,680 Speaker 1: or the articles I've read. It's like, is terrible. This 700 00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:54,640 Speaker 1: sort of the economic discussion has come so far in 701 00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:57,360 Speaker 1: the last ten years that you know, eventually, I do 702 00:40:57,440 --> 00:41:02,120 Speaker 1: think there's a possibility that needs through to real action 703 00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:04,160 Speaker 1: that's not just a sort of tripling down on the 704 00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:07,919 Speaker 1: status quotes. So that could be good. Well, to be fair, 705 00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:11,319 Speaker 1: I think after the financial crisis, because it's sprung from 706 00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:15,120 Speaker 1: the banking system, there was so much focus on bank 707 00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:19,080 Speaker 1: policy after that, and you know, people wanted to dismantle 708 00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:20,960 Speaker 1: the banks and jail the bankers and all of that. 709 00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:24,000 Speaker 1: Whereas what's really unique about what we're seeing right now 710 00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:28,200 Speaker 1: is that the issues are stemming from the real economy. 711 00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:31,080 Speaker 1: So we're sort of seeing a debate forced about how 712 00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:39,720 Speaker 1: the real economy works, which is fascinating and possibly unprecedented. Great. Okay, well, 713 00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:43,200 Speaker 1: this has been another episode of the All Thoughts podcast. 714 00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:46,000 Speaker 1: I'm Tracy Halloway. You can follow me on Twitter at 715 00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:49,840 Speaker 1: Tracy Alloway. I'm Joe wi isn't thought. You can follow 716 00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:53,120 Speaker 1: me at the Stalwart and you can follow our guest 717 00:41:53,239 --> 00:41:57,799 Speaker 1: on Twitter, Eric Lawndergan. He's at Eric lawn Earth to End. 718 00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:02,280 Speaker 1: Follow our producer on Twitter, Laura Carlson at Laura M. Carlston. 719 00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:06,160 Speaker 1: The Bloomberg had a podcast, Francesca Levi at Francesca Today 720 00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:09,240 Speaker 1: and check out all of our podcasts under the handle 721 00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:11,240 Speaker 1: at podcast. Thanks for listening.