Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet, as a production
Speaker 1: of My Heart Radio and Unboss Creative. I'm Bridget Tod
Speaker 1: and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet.
Speaker 1: Ten people died, including three children, and hundreds more were
Speaker 1: injured at rapper Travis Scott's Astro World music festival in Houston, Texas.
Speaker 1: Firsthand video footage on social media shows young people pleading
Speaker 1: with crew members to stop the performance because people in
Speaker 1: the crowd were unresponsive, but authorities say Travis Scott continued
Speaker 1: to perform for thirty seven minutes after Houston police and
Speaker 1: firefighters were called to what had been deemed a mass
Speaker 1: casualty event. Travis Scott even brought out rapper Drake for
Speaker 1: a guest appearance as many in the crowd screamed for help.
Speaker 1: It's not clear if Travis Scott knew the severity of
Speaker 1: the situation, but Scott does have a history of inciting
Speaker 1: crowds into dangerous behavior at his concerts. He's even faced
Speaker 1: charges for it at past concerts and Live Nation, the
Speaker 1: company behind Astro World has a long history of safety violations.
Speaker 1: As the footage coming out of the event is horrifying,
Speaker 1: and because of Travis Scott's fan base. This was happening
Speaker 1: to very young people, kids. I was getting winded, I
Speaker 1: was using all the energy I had left in me,
Speaker 1: and I came to the point where I was accepting
Speaker 1: my dead. In a statement, Travis Scott says he didn't
Speaker 1: know people had died until after he left the stage.
Speaker 1: He also announced what he called a partnership with the
Speaker 1: therapy app Better Help to provide a free month of
Speaker 1: therapy to those impacted by the tragedy, which on space
Speaker 1: may sound great, but Better Help has also been called
Speaker 1: out for its murky policies regarding how they used the
Speaker 1: data of clients and how they treat mental health services
Speaker 1: in general. Not to be clear, I am not an
Speaker 1: expert on digital health services, but Dr Michael Amato, our
Speaker 1: show's producer and chief science officer, is Michael was a
Speaker 1: psychologist who does research on digital health interventions and he
Speaker 1: leads the data team that supports digital products, which is
Speaker 1: hundreds of thousands of people overcome addiction. Mike, can I
Speaker 1: sit down with Jeff Gunther, a therapist who runs therapy
Speaker 1: then a resource to match people with diverse therapists, who
Speaker 1: uses this platform on TikTok to warn people that apps
Speaker 1: like better Help might not be as good as they seem.
Speaker 1: I am Jeff gunther licensed professional counselor. So, Jeff, you
Speaker 1: run a resource called the Therapy Den. How did this
Speaker 1: resource come to be? Yeah, so I'm in a therapist
Speaker 1: or practice in therapists. Two thousand five, I started a
Speaker 1: local therapist directory in Portland's that's where I live. And
Speaker 1: the Portland Therapist directory grew and I learned um about
Speaker 1: what therapists are wanting, on what clients are wanting when
Speaker 1: they're looking for a therapist. Then back like three or
Speaker 1: four years ago, I used all that knowledge to launch
Speaker 1: therapy den dot com and it was sort of like
Speaker 1: meant to counter another huge therapist directory, Psychology Today. Psychology Today.
Speaker 1: You might be aware of their magazine. You'll find Psychology
Speaker 1: todayse magazines like in all of the therapist waiting rooms.
Speaker 1: One of the things I don't like about their magazine
Speaker 1: is that, basically, over the like many many decades that
Speaker 1: they've been producing their magazine, they primarily only have very
Speaker 1: good looking people on the cover, very skinny women, um
Speaker 1: that are predominantly white. So um, there's no diversity on
Speaker 1: their magazine cover, and that transfers over to their therapist directory,
Speaker 1: which is sort of like always rankings number one on Google. Uh.
Speaker 1: So they you can't go to psychology today and find
Speaker 1: a therapist that is competently trained in racial justice or
Speaker 1: and that is competently trained in treating transgender people or UM.
Speaker 1: For the longest time, you can search therapists by gender,
Speaker 1: and they only had male and female gender. So there
Speaker 1: was like I made therapy dender the Therapy then directory
Speaker 1: to kind of like challenge them and force them or
Speaker 1: encourage them to evolve. And psychology today has been slowly
Speaker 1: kind of evolving. UM. I don't think that they totally
Speaker 1: meet the needs of modern clients, but they're doing something
Speaker 1: about it, and I'm happy about that. So Therapy then
Speaker 1: was sort of like, all right, I'm gonna like try
Speaker 1: to create this disruptive force in the therapist directory uh field,
Speaker 1: which like isn't very big um. And so that was
Speaker 1: the main agenda and then we can get into it.
Speaker 1: But like back in two thousand and fifteen, when like
Speaker 1: better Help and talk space started to become a thing,
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, okay, like there's somebody I need
Speaker 1: to target as well. I know when I was first
Speaker 1: looking for a therapist. A few years ago. I knew
Speaker 1: that I wanted a black woman, and that's partially because
Speaker 1: I had heard from my black girlfriends of these awful
Speaker 1: experiences of having to spend their time in therapy, you know,
Speaker 1: educating their white rapiste about things like systemic racism. And
Speaker 1: I knew that I didn't want to do that. But
Speaker 1: finding a black woman therapist for me was incredibly difficult.
Speaker 1: It was like finding a needle in a haystack. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: That isn't how therapy should be. Like you should not
Speaker 1: be spending time that you're paying for to educate your
Speaker 1: client or educate your therapist on who you are, your culture,
Speaker 1: your background, the language that you use, where you're coming from.
Speaker 1: You know, your your religion, your ethnicity. So that's why
Speaker 1: therapy then was created so that we can like create
Speaker 1: like a ton of filters so that you can like
Speaker 1: figure out how you can find a therapist that already
Speaker 1: matches with you and in lots of different ways. Um.
Speaker 1: And also I've like taken a stance on like here
Speaker 1: are a ton of different questions that clients should be
Speaker 1: asking their therapist in the first session. If you're if
Speaker 1: you're black, and you're seeing a therapist that's white, you
Speaker 1: need to ask that that therapist like what makes you
Speaker 1: How can you competently treat me? What do you know
Speaker 1: about my ethnicity? How do you feel when if I'm
Speaker 1: going to talk about how racist white people are, Like
Speaker 1: what do you think about you know, the black lives matters,
Speaker 1: and like all the protests and like there's just like
Speaker 1: hundreds of like questions that you could ask your therapist
Speaker 1: to make sure that they are a good fit for you.
Speaker 1: And I don't think that a lot of clients know
Speaker 1: that they can like interview their therapist on that first
Speaker 1: session and ask that therapists tell me, like the specific
Speaker 1: training that you've received, talk talk to me about like
Speaker 1: the supervisors and the consultation groups that you're in. So
Speaker 1: I know that, so that I know that you can
Speaker 1: competently treat me. So that's a whole thing. Yeah. I
Speaker 1: love that you're giving clients and just people the like
Speaker 1: empowering them with a language and tools to to advocate
Speaker 1: for themselves. I love that. So you talked about your
Speaker 1: relationship with these therapy apps that have really become ubiquitous
Speaker 1: in the last few years, things like better Help and
Speaker 1: Talk space. You know, when I first heard about these apps,
Speaker 1: they did really seem like an accessible way for folks
Speaker 1: to access my therapists. But so many therapists I've heard
Speaker 1: from do not like these apps. Can you tell me
Speaker 1: why that is? Yeah, but let's start there. Like, you're right,
Speaker 1: the accessibility that these apps have like tapped into it
Speaker 1: is so incredibly difficult, and I wish it wasn't. It's
Speaker 1: a systemic issue. But it's so incredibly difficult for somebody
Speaker 1: to just like find a therapist it's a good match
Speaker 1: for them. Um, There's a ton of searching that you
Speaker 1: have to do. There's confusing insurance that you have to
Speaker 1: like wade through. Um, it can be expensive. There's like
Speaker 1: a ton of roadblocks. So many therapists are booked, especially
Speaker 1: because everybody in the world decided to get therapy at
Speaker 1: the saying goddamn time, which is totally fine. I get it,
Speaker 1: I understand. I love that you're getting therapy. Um, but
Speaker 1: therapists are so busy, so you're just like you. Even
Speaker 1: if you find a therapist who is a good match,
Speaker 1: it's incredibly frustrating because they might not have any openings.
Speaker 1: But then better how talk space cerebral other apps like
Speaker 1: that have come along, and they're just say, hey, click
Speaker 1: a button. We are the uber of therapy. Download app,
Speaker 1: click this button, check the terms of service, don't worry
Speaker 1: about reading and it's confusing anyways, and we will set
Speaker 1: you up with a therapist. Just and the therapist. Is
Speaker 1: it gonna Is that a good match? I don't know.
Speaker 1: We hope so maybe. Uh. But like they've tapped into
Speaker 1: the accessibility of part where it's just like it it's
Speaker 1: so understandable, like people are getting so frustrated, so of
Speaker 1: course they're going to go to these apps, especially like
Speaker 1: in younger people that are used to doing that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that is an excellent point that they really did identify
Speaker 1: a true need that exists out there. Of it's difficult
Speaker 1: to find a therapist. And we talk a lot on
Speaker 1: this show about bad things that the internet and tech
Speaker 1: bring to us, but I'm talking to Bridget the other day.
Speaker 1: One of the things you mentioned was how her favorite
Speaker 1: stories are about the great things that the internet does
Speaker 1: to like bring the people together or help somebody be
Speaker 1: seen or find whatever it is that they're looking for.
Speaker 1: And it really seems like they sort of zeroed in
Speaker 1: on that and it is a real need that they've addressed.
Speaker 1: It is. It's a real need. And on the platforms
Speaker 1: there are actually amazing therapists, Like my beef is not
Speaker 1: with the therapists that are contracted to provide therapy. Uh
Speaker 1: there they are like trained at um you know, and
Speaker 1: licensed and they're they're great. Uh So, yeah, they tap
Speaker 1: into a need and somebody needed to do it. And
Speaker 1: it's because like because therapists and private practice cannot all
Speaker 1: get their ship together. We're all running our own little
Speaker 1: individual small businesses. Um, so we can't all come together
Speaker 1: and like figure out how to solve this problem. And
Speaker 1: it's not just therapistic being to come together. It's just
Speaker 1: like so many layers of everything that needs to come
Speaker 1: together in order to fix this. So these tech companies,
Speaker 1: which are super savvy, they're the ones that did it.
Speaker 1: So bravo, I hate you. You compared these apps to
Speaker 1: Uber and you know, it's one of those things like
Speaker 1: should getting a therapist, should starting the journey to like
Speaker 1: deal with your trauma, unpack your issues? Should that look
Speaker 1: like an Uber business model that we know has so
Speaker 1: much exploitation, whether it's the exploitation of drivers, the exploitation
Speaker 1: of writer writer details and writer privacy. Should should that
Speaker 1: relationship mimic uber and I would argue, no, it shouldn't.
Speaker 1: That accessibility is good. The idea of having a therapist
Speaker 1: at your fingertips sounds great, but when you actually think
Speaker 1: about it harder, you're like, wait, should therapy be the
Speaker 1: same be a similar kind of business framework as something
Speaker 1: like an uber where you can get a ride at
Speaker 1: the push of a button. And maybe this driver isn't
Speaker 1: being treated well and maybe they aren't being super careful
Speaker 1: with my data. Who knows, I don't know. The answers
Speaker 1: might be buried in the third page of some you know,
Speaker 1: murky privacy documents somewhere, Like I'm not really sure. Should
Speaker 1: getting into a relationship with a therapist really be the
Speaker 1: same way that it is when you just like hail
Speaker 1: a taxi to your home? Yeah? I mean no, I
Speaker 1: think not at all. And because like you know, if
Speaker 1: someone's deriving you from the restaurant to your home, like
Speaker 1: I don't know, I guess that person can kind of
Speaker 1: be anybody as long as they're like good enough. You know,
Speaker 1: they're not going to bother you, They're gonna like be
Speaker 1: quiet whatever, they'll they'll do what they need to do
Speaker 1: to get you from like point A to point B.
Speaker 1: But when you're looking for a therapist, it's not just
Speaker 1: like are they good enough? Are they going to talk
Speaker 1: to your listen, it's like are they actually qualified to
Speaker 1: treat you? Do they understand your experience in a like
Speaker 1: deep way? Um? And you need to shop around for
Speaker 1: therapists and talk to multiple therapists in order to find
Speaker 1: somebody who's a good enough match. Um And instead of
Speaker 1: just being handed one like Uber would do, or like
Speaker 1: talk space or better help does so. No, I don't
Speaker 1: think so, but there are um apps and um tech
Speaker 1: companies that like understand that better help is not doing
Speaker 1: this well and somebody else needs to do it better. UM.
Speaker 1: So there is a like a newer app that's I
Speaker 1: think it's maybe just in like Florida or Georgia right
Speaker 1: now called Hurdle. Have you ever heard of Hurdle? Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's I just heard about it. And they contacted me
Speaker 1: to like let me know about what they're doing. UM
Speaker 1: And they contacted me because they're like, hey, can you
Speaker 1: sponsor us on TikTok? And they said, uh no, but
Speaker 1: only because it's sort of like conflicts with therapy then
Speaker 1: where I'm trying to connect people. So it's anyways, I
Speaker 1: love them and what they're doing, what they started out
Speaker 1: doing where they're like paying therapists, Well we should talk
Speaker 1: about that with Better Help um, because they're not uh,
Speaker 1: and they're like making sure that all the therapists on
Speaker 1: the platform are competently trained in racial justice and social
Speaker 1: justice and their trans competent and queer competent and and
Speaker 1: they're continuously going through trainings um there and so like
Speaker 1: they're doing it the right way. So there are apps
Speaker 1: and services out there that are starting to do it
Speaker 1: the right way. But Better Help and Talk Space they're
Speaker 1: like these first movers that have amazing marketing, especially Better
Speaker 1: Help uh and and yeah, so it might be hard
Speaker 1: to compete with them. It's it's interesting that you say
Speaker 1: that they have better marketing, you know, because I've looked
Speaker 1: at your TikTok's and I think one of the big
Speaker 1: criticisms is how they harvest people's data and use it
Speaker 1: for marketing and advertising. And uh, you know, I clicked
Speaker 1: through I read their privacy form and yeah, they're just
Speaker 1: using all of your data, including your communications with your
Speaker 1: counselor for third party marketing, and so it made me wonder,
Speaker 1: like how much of their business model is actual therapy
Speaker 1: delivery and how much are they in advertising them exactly? Yes,
Speaker 1: they get so much amazing personal data on your mental
Speaker 1: health information, who you are, when was your you know,
Speaker 1: are you suicidal? When was your last suicide attempt? How
Speaker 1: much money do you make? Uh? Where do you live? Um,
Speaker 1: what are your pronouns? What's your sexual orientation? Uh, what's
Speaker 1: your gender? Like there's They get the most detailed information
Speaker 1: about how much, how often you're talking to your therapist,
Speaker 1: if you're meeting your therapistical, if you're married, counseling goals,
Speaker 1: like so much stuff, Um, incredibly valuable. I don't know
Speaker 1: like how much money they make off of it, or
Speaker 1: if they make any money off it, if they're making
Speaker 1: all of their money off of that, but they that
Speaker 1: that information is incredibly valuable, and they did. Um, they
Speaker 1: were a little bit more clear a few months ago
Speaker 1: when I made one of my first TikTok videos about
Speaker 1: them and going through their privacy policy about like all
Speaker 1: information that they collect since I sort of like exposed
Speaker 1: them and it's got you know, over a million views
Speaker 1: of their privacy policy. And they've changed their privacy policy
Speaker 1: to make it so much more vague and so much
Speaker 1: more confusing and actually gives them so much more leeway
Speaker 1: when it comes to like sharing your data. They can
Speaker 1: share your data with their corporate partners. Do you know
Speaker 1: who their corporate partners are? Fuck? No, who the funk knows?
Speaker 1: I have no idea. They don't list them. They can
Speaker 1: share it with their ad network. You know who's in
Speaker 1: their ad network? I have no fucking idea. Probably a
Speaker 1: ton of people. Um, they can. They can use it
Speaker 1: for marketing purposes and whatever the hell they want to
Speaker 1: use it for. Um. So we don't know why what
Speaker 1: they're using for exactly. We don't know who they're sharing
Speaker 1: it with. We don't know how much money they're making
Speaker 1: off of it. And the only way that you can
Speaker 1: use their act is if you check off the terms
Speaker 1: of service, which like allows them to use all this information. Um,
Speaker 1: I would love it if they gave you an option
Speaker 1: to not like sell your data on my like HBO
Speaker 1: Max subscription. There's a little check box that says, are
Speaker 1: we allowed? Can we like use your third party data?
Speaker 1: And can just be like Nope, better help doesn't do that,
Speaker 1: and why would they ever do it because they're probably
Speaker 1: making a ton of money. Something else that I'd like
Speaker 1: to mention is that you know they're able to sell
Speaker 1: your information to third parties, and so if they sold
Speaker 1: your information to a company like Facebook, then you think
Speaker 1: about all the different data that we know that Facebook
Speaker 1: is able to collect, combined with whatever they have from
Speaker 1: your your relationship with your counselor through better health, it
Speaker 1: becomes clearer just like we're not talking about little bits
Speaker 1: and pieces of data. They really can mine and harvest
Speaker 1: a real composite like portrait of who you are and
Speaker 1: sell that for profit. And I just I'm I just
Speaker 1: fundamentally believe that that is not how a relationship with
Speaker 1: a mental health specialist should look and and and to me,
Speaker 1: there is not another word for that other than like exploitation.
Speaker 1: And like I guess, I really see it as this
Speaker 1: kind of capitalistic mining of the most sensitive stuff about
Speaker 1: us so that corporate interests can get better pockets. And
Speaker 1: it's just so depressing and demoralizing. God, it is, it
Speaker 1: really is. Let's take a quick break at our back.
Speaker 1: So you might be thinking, what about hippop the health
Speaker 1: Insurance Portability and Accountability Act, a law that created national
Speaker 1: standards to protect patient health information from being disclosed without consent.
Speaker 1: Doesn't HIPPA prevent our health information from being used to
Speaker 1: sell things? In this case, the answer is not really.
Speaker 1: Our producer Mike works with health information, and that means
Speaker 1: he spends a lot of time dealing with hippop Here's
Speaker 1: what he had to say. I work within the constraints
Speaker 1: of HIPPA every day, and I think it's probably one
Speaker 1: of the most misunderstood laws in America. People think HIPPA
Speaker 1: protects all of their health information all of the time,
Speaker 1: but it doesn't. HIPPA only applies to a very narrow
Speaker 1: set of actors and circumstances. Basically, it applies to healthcare
Speaker 1: providers and their contractors. Better Health is neither of those things.
Speaker 1: In a page on their website convincingly titled online Therapy Services,
Speaker 1: are they legit question mark, they repeatedly used phrases like
Speaker 1: HIPPO compliant therapists. What they don't say is that the
Speaker 1: therapists are bound by HIPPA because they're providing healthcare. But
Speaker 1: Better Health the platform is not because they aren't providing healthcare.
Speaker 1: They're simply connecting you with the providers, and so they
Speaker 1: are bound only by the terms of service you accept
Speaker 1: by creating an account. Hippo was signed into law in
Speaker 1: around the same time Bill Clinton was describing the Internet
Speaker 1: as an information super highway. It's authors never imagined all
Speaker 1: the ways the Internet would revolutionize how we access healthcare.
Speaker 1: And so we've come to this place where most Americans
Speaker 1: believe their private health information is eagally protected. But that's
Speaker 1: just not always true. In reality, many of the digital
Speaker 1: services we use have no greater legal obligation to protect
Speaker 1: information about our health and information about what TV shows
Speaker 1: we like to watch or what types of sneakers we
Speaker 1: want to buy. So the question is are we okay
Speaker 1: with for profit tech companies like better help setting the
Speaker 1: president around privacy and digital health services, because that's where
Speaker 1: we're at. And one of the questions that I get
Speaker 1: all the time, because you're right, they know you intimately,
Speaker 1: like so many things about you, And the question I
Speaker 1: get is like, how is this not a hip of violation?
Speaker 1: What is making this okay? So if you are my
Speaker 1: client and you're seeing me in my private practice, I'm
Speaker 1: your therapist. Um, all the notes that I write on
Speaker 1: you is actually your property. That's all yours. You can
Speaker 1: go to your therapist. You can be like, give you
Speaker 1: my notes, and a therapist legally has to hand that
Speaker 1: over to you. That's all of your medical information and
Speaker 1: we need to give it. So if a if my
Speaker 1: client came in, it was like, Jeff, give me all
Speaker 1: of the notes, even keeping on me, and I give
Speaker 1: it over to them. They could take all those all
Speaker 1: that mental health information and they could sell it to
Speaker 1: an advertiser. They can give it to Facebook. As a client,
Speaker 1: you can do whatever you want with your with your
Speaker 1: medical information. And that's what's happening. When you sign up
Speaker 1: for Better Help. You're saying, okay, um, all of the
Speaker 1: like information that I'm providing to this therapist is mine,
Speaker 1: and now I'm giving it to you Better Help. You
Speaker 1: can do whatever you want with it. So that's another
Speaker 1: way that they're able to get around it. And so
Speaker 1: one of my big things was like, oh, you know,
Speaker 1: but I can suck over Better Help if I can
Speaker 1: like go to the state licensing boards and all of
Speaker 1: the states I'd start with like California and New York
Speaker 1: and be like okay, y'all, uh therapists are seeing these clients,
Speaker 1: and they know that the client information that we like
Speaker 1: ethically legally have to keep confident dential is being given
Speaker 1: to better help and given to like advertisers. Should these
Speaker 1: therapists be allowed to provide therapy and better help? Should
Speaker 1: this therapists be disciplined or have their license taken away?
Speaker 1: Not that I want to get those license taken away,
Speaker 1: but maybe I can like put pressure on better help. Um.
Speaker 1: And the problem is is that, like what I just mentioned,
Speaker 1: it's the client information and they can hand it over.
Speaker 1: There also is somebody something in hippa where like hippa
Speaker 1: is just like everything has to say confidential unless maybe
Speaker 1: it's used for marketing purposes and it's anonymised, So like
Speaker 1: they also have that like a gray area. There's so
Speaker 1: many things that are protecting better help. It seems though
Speaker 1: that like stepping back to harvest all of this personal
Speaker 1: information about somebody's mental health and then use it to
Speaker 1: make advertising revenue, it just feels wrong, right, like oh
Speaker 1: there's that. Yeah, it just doesn't sit well. It just
Speaker 1: doesn't feel okay. Um, that shouldn't be happening obviously, like
Speaker 1: abows your therapist nows anonymizing your info and selling it
Speaker 1: to advertisers, I would lose my license, uh and I
Speaker 1: should Um, that just shouldn't be a part of the
Speaker 1: therapy process. But we're in this like funky, weird, shitty
Speaker 1: capitalist whatever time where like that's okay, and they're incredibly
Speaker 1: protected and they're going to probably continue to do that.
Speaker 1: And better help is you know, they interacted with me
Speaker 1: a little bit by like leaving some comments on some
Speaker 1: of my TikTok videos, and now they have they're just
Speaker 1: ignoring me, which is probably a very good business decision
Speaker 1: on their then, because like, who the funk am? I?
Speaker 1: I mean, you did, like your TikTok's had an impact
Speaker 1: when you were describing how they changed their you know,
Speaker 1: their privacy policy. For a hot second, I thought you
Speaker 1: were gonna say they, you know, because of my tiktoks
Speaker 1: that got millions of views and they changed their privacy
Speaker 1: policy for the better. But then it was like, oh,
Speaker 1: they just made it even more vague. No, because of me,
Speaker 1: I made it worse for everybody. But like pointing this
Speaker 1: out there was like, cool, we need to be real
Speaker 1: fucking shady now, So you're welcome America. When I saw
Speaker 1: the news out of Texas. It had a really deep
Speaker 1: impact on me in a way that I almost can't
Speaker 1: even articulate why. There was something about the videos that
Speaker 1: were coming out of it that just really hit me
Speaker 1: in a way that you know, you think that you're
Speaker 1: desensitized to tragedy and disaster, but something about those videos
Speaker 1: really stuck with me. And I think seeing like the
Speaker 1: live stream with an Apple logo on it, where I
Speaker 1: knew that young people were facing really scary circumstances, I
Speaker 1: really can't shake the the deep disturbed way that that
Speaker 1: how disturbing that was to me, Like I I don't
Speaker 1: know why I've not been able to sort of like
Speaker 1: move past it, but I have not. And when I
Speaker 1: woke up again and saw that Travis Scott was partnering
Speaker 1: with Better Help, that really it just seemed like a
Speaker 1: cherry on top of this exploitation cake where these young
Speaker 1: people had really been deeply exploited in the deepest, deepest
Speaker 1: ways for profit, to to make money for corporate interest,
Speaker 1: whether we're talking about Live Nation, Travis Scott, the organizer's
Speaker 1: Apple streaming platforms, whatever. And then in the aftermath of
Speaker 1: that horrific traumatic tragedy, what they were being offered was
Speaker 1: just another way to serve them up to be further
Speaker 1: mind and exploited. And it was it was like it
Speaker 1: broke my brain. I couldn't even conceptualize the depths to
Speaker 1: how broken so many systems are where that's the thing
Speaker 1: they're being offered and even still one month of it.
Speaker 1: So it's like it's already shitty what they're being offered,
Speaker 1: but it's not even that long. Some of these kids
Speaker 1: probably have like complex PTSD. It takes longer than a
Speaker 1: month to treat that. What were your thoughts on that partnership? Yeah, garbage.
Speaker 1: I thought it was a dumpster fire. I thought it was.
Speaker 1: I felt the same way that you felt. So, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's like a bunch of you know, corporations creating trauma
Speaker 1: and then sending those traumatized kids to Better Help where
Speaker 1: they're going to like mind their data and make a
Speaker 1: ton of money. Uh. It's it was disturbing, it was upsetting,
Speaker 1: and it reminded me of when Better Help used to.
Speaker 1: I still think they kind of do this, but back
Speaker 1: in nineteen they were going to all the therapist directories
Speaker 1: out there that attract, you know, the clients that are
Speaker 1: looking for therapists, and they were just trying to like
Speaker 1: either buy them up or quote unquote partner with them
Speaker 1: in order to like take all of their business um
Speaker 1: and like direct those those users into the Better Help
Speaker 1: ecosystem um. And so they approached me when I like
Speaker 1: launched therapy then and they're like, hey, can we go
Speaker 1: ahead and uh take like therapist profiles and add them
Speaker 1: to your directory so that if any of the people
Speaker 1: that are using your directory that uh, you know, find
Speaker 1: they could like find one of our Better Help therapists
Speaker 1: and then create services or create you know, start therapy
Speaker 1: with them. And every time somebody signs up for Better
Speaker 1: Help through therapy, then it will pay you three hundred
Speaker 1: dollars UM, which is a ton of money. Uh. And
Speaker 1: because they're like, you could potentially make eighty thousand dollars
Speaker 1: a month because we've like made had the steal, created
Speaker 1: the steal with other therapist directories that are the same
Speaker 1: size as yours. Uh. And I know those therapist directories
Speaker 1: and I know the owners and some of them are
Speaker 1: buddies of mine. So I was like talking to them
Speaker 1: about like what went on, and those therapist directories were
Speaker 1: like basically taken over and just used as like a
Speaker 1: funnel in order to like, you know, get even more
Speaker 1: people to sign up for Better Help. Uh. So you
Speaker 1: don't really own your therapist directory anymore. They just sort
Speaker 1: of like take it over because they put thousands and thousands,
Speaker 1: twenty thousand different therapist profiles or something like on on
Speaker 1: your directory. Uh. And it's also like therapy done is
Speaker 1: about like matching people with like a good competent therapist
Speaker 1: that you know is a good fit, and Better Help
Speaker 1: can't do that at all. It's a therapy now. Um
Speaker 1: So it didn't feel okay, it allowed like loose control,
Speaker 1: Like it just didn't feel like a good match at all.
Speaker 1: And I like started to That's when I started to
Speaker 1: really learn about their privacy policy and the data mining
Speaker 1: and ship like that. And I would imagine that like
Speaker 1: all the marketing that they do that Better Help does,
Speaker 1: and all the podcasts and NPR and ship like that,
Speaker 1: all of those companies are probably getting like a very
Speaker 1: nice kick back because Better Help was like, hey, on average,
Speaker 1: we make twelve hundred dollars, We bring in twelve hundred
Speaker 1: dollars when somebody signs up for Better Help, we are
Speaker 1: very much willing to like pay you three hundred dollars
Speaker 1: when we collect twelve hundred dollars. Also, we're going to
Speaker 1: pay the therapist ship, so like it's not even like
Speaker 1: we have like too much of an overhead cost. You
Speaker 1: talk about how the therapists are just not only are
Speaker 1: they not paid what like like a comparable amount that
Speaker 1: they can make in private practice or elsewhere, but also
Speaker 1: you know they're paying I learned from your tiktoks they're
Speaker 1: sometimes paid by the word, and so once they hit
Speaker 1: their word count, they kind of have to decide if
Speaker 1: they want to continue treating a client who very well,
Speaker 1: maybe in crisis, basically out of the goodness of their
Speaker 1: heart because they care about this client. For free um
Speaker 1: clients can access their therapists twenty four hours a day,
Speaker 1: seven days a week, which sounds really good in theory,
Speaker 1: but then you're like, should you have access to your
Speaker 1: therapist seven I would say no, that maybe you should
Speaker 1: have some some boundaries around how you access your therapists.
Speaker 1: It's kind of stunning to hear about how much money
Speaker 1: they must be taking in via how much money gets
Speaker 1: spent gets given to their actual therapists who are like
Speaker 1: doing the work of sustaining this platform. Yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: the therapists are getting maybe around thirty a little less
Speaker 1: than thirty dollars an hour. Um. Ideally, if you're a
Speaker 1: therapist and you're seeing clients who want to get at
Speaker 1: least a hundred dollars an hour, that's what we're like
Speaker 1: aiming for, if not more if you live in like
Speaker 1: more expensive cities. Um. But but it helps, like we
Speaker 1: will pay you up to fifty dollars an hour if
Speaker 1: you work more hours per week, So if you work
Speaker 1: up to fifty hours a week, you'll get our top pay,
Speaker 1: which is fucking bonkers. I don't even understand why that's
Speaker 1: a pay scale that exists. Like work fifteen hours, get
Speaker 1: thirty dollars or less an hour, work up to fifty
Speaker 1: hours a week more. I don't know. That's the whole
Speaker 1: fucking thing. I hate that. Uh. And then it's they
Speaker 1: pay you based on word counts, so you can't go
Speaker 1: over the word count that they like provide. If you
Speaker 1: do start like providing more support, if you start texting
Speaker 1: more support and going over the word count, you're working
Speaker 1: for fucking free therapist. They're not going to pay you
Speaker 1: for it. So maybe they're paying you thirty dollars an hour,
Speaker 1: but it's actually a lot less if you like feel
Speaker 1: like you need to give even more support or to
Speaker 1: that client. Um. And of course, just like uber and
Speaker 1: Left or whatever, like you're not getting benefits your contract.
Speaker 1: You're not like getting paid time off. You know, like
Speaker 1: you have to provide all of your equipment and you know.
Speaker 1: So it's just like it's a bunch of bullshit that
Speaker 1: therapists are getting exploited, and they're able to exploit these
Speaker 1: therapists that are usually like fresh out of grad school
Speaker 1: or just looking for a little part time work or something.
Speaker 1: And yeah, twenty four hour access to a therapist clinically
Speaker 1: no not okay, that's not creating self reliance. Uh, you
Speaker 1: need to be able to kind of like go and
Speaker 1: do your thing and then be able to check back
Speaker 1: with your therapist. I understand why that's appealing though, but
Speaker 1: imagine understand that that therapist with a caseload of like
Speaker 1: ten fifty clients a week, You're they're getting pinned all
Speaker 1: the fucking time. So there's no way that a therapist
Speaker 1: is able. But like a therapist must have to it's
Speaker 1: in their contract that they have to respond within twenty
Speaker 1: four hours, no matter what day or time it is,
Speaker 1: which is not very realistic. Plus, um, there's this like
Speaker 1: thing where like if there's better help has like a
Speaker 1: flood of people signing up. They're like, Okay, I know
Speaker 1: that you have a ton of clients, but will you
Speaker 1: take these new clients? Will pay you more for these
Speaker 1: new clients, which sort of incentivizes therapists to drop their
Speaker 1: old clients they're not getting paid enough for in the
Speaker 1: first place, to then take the new clients. It's such
Speaker 1: a stupid, fucked up system. I hate it. Can you tell?
Speaker 1: It's so fucked up? And this is not how therapy
Speaker 1: therapy is meant to be. This is not how it
Speaker 1: should look to access mental health care. And you know,
Speaker 1: in the wake of the astronaut World thing, it's like
Speaker 1: it is a it's like an exploitation layer cake where
Speaker 1: the clients, the potential clients are going to be exploited,
Speaker 1: the therapists running the side are being exploited. Everybody is
Speaker 1: being exploited except for the tech overlords who like are
Speaker 1: possibly like making money from the people that are being
Speaker 1: referred from this tragedy. Honestly, talking to you has helped
Speaker 1: me make sense of why it made me so deeply,
Speaker 1: deeply angry and disgusted, like I had such a visceral reaction. Also,
Speaker 1: just that use of the word partnership, like you know,
Speaker 1: using this tragedy as a branding opportunity. I really found
Speaker 1: it deeply, deeply, like just disgusting. And I think talking
Speaker 1: to you is really made it so clear that yeah,
Speaker 1: that wasn't that wasn't. I was almost about to say,
Speaker 1: like an irrational response, that was a rational response, because
Speaker 1: it is really fucked up, but it is really disgusting. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a very rational response to a very irrational thing
Speaker 1: that's occurring. Totally. You've described all these numbers of like
Speaker 1: caseloads of forty or fifty patients a week, which like
Speaker 1: what a joke? How can you be providing like high
Speaker 1: quality of care. I haven't heard you say anything about
Speaker 1: like the evaluation process or uh, you know, any sort
Speaker 1: of quality control. Do you know if they do um?
Speaker 1: Like I just have to imagine that the quality of
Speaker 1: care that patients are receiving is pretty low with a
Speaker 1: caseload like that. But is that something that they look
Speaker 1: at or measure or talk about. Yeah, I don't know
Speaker 1: it's a good question. I've never come across any sort
Speaker 1: of like data or survey about the quality of care UM,
Speaker 1: So I don't know, And uh, I just feel I
Speaker 1: feel bad for everybody involved. I feel really bad for
Speaker 1: the therapist that are getting burnt out, that are kind
Speaker 1: of like forced to work longer or more hours. Um.
Speaker 1: And this is I don't know. I don't know if
Speaker 1: I can say this, So well whatever, UM, maybe we'll
Speaker 1: head it out. But there's uh, how can you say
Speaker 1: this if you want to if you're somebody that's seeing
Speaker 1: a better help therapist and you really like like your therapist,
Speaker 1: because there's a ton of really great therapists on there,
Speaker 1: and this conversation is upsetting or disturbing you, if you
Speaker 1: wanted to ask your better help therapist, if they have
Speaker 1: their own private practice and they are accepting glimps, then
Speaker 1: that's something you can ask them, and you can talk
Speaker 1: to them about the better health therapists obviously are not
Speaker 1: allowed to be like out of private practice. If you
Speaker 1: want to see me there and you know, even pay
Speaker 1: me if you like, pay that therapist the same amount
Speaker 1: that you're giving better help than what they're hourly rate
Speaker 1: has doubled or tripled you know by that time. Um
Speaker 1: so so, because I get a lot of like feedback like, oh,
Speaker 1: but I love my Better health therapists. Let's stick with
Speaker 1: that better health therapist. I'm so happy for you. Also,
Speaker 1: maybe you can see them in their private practice and
Speaker 1: get out of life better Help if you want to.
Speaker 1: I think I can say that. I'm pretty sure. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think that's good advice, because it sounds like you're
Speaker 1: being so clear that you're not trying to say that
Speaker 1: Better Help doesn't have great kick ass therapists on the platform,
Speaker 1: but that the platform itself does not support these therapists
Speaker 1: for giving the best quality of care that they can.
Speaker 1: And so there might be other ways to access that
Speaker 1: same therapist that you might love who's on Better Help
Speaker 1: in a way where they're not being sort of set
Speaker 1: up to give you not as good, not as good
Speaker 1: as care as you could be getting. Otherwise, m and
Speaker 1: your therapists in their private practice probably won't sell all
Speaker 1: your personal mental most likely they are not going to
Speaker 1: do that. More. After a quick break, let's get right
Speaker 1: back into it now. I'm not the only one who
Speaker 1: has a problem with Better Help partnership with Travis Scott
Speaker 1: in the wake of the Astro World tragedy. The response
Speaker 1: has not been good, and Better Help is working overtime
Speaker 1: to correct what they're calling misinformation about their platform. No,
Speaker 1: it's worth noting that Better Help waited until the partnership
Speaker 1: got negative reactions online to clarify pretty basic details about
Speaker 1: the arrangement. Frankly, making patient protection seems like kind of
Speaker 1: an afterthought. They released an f a Q where they
Speaker 1: say that people who use the free month of Better
Speaker 1: Help services will not be built after that month is up,
Speaker 1: and they say that Travis Scott isn't making any money
Speaker 1: from the partnership. Now, I've heard a lot of tech
Speaker 1: company corporate double speaking my day, and I'd like the
Speaker 1: company to clarify whether this also pertains to any business
Speaker 1: or philanthropic entities Travis Scott might be affiliated with. They
Speaker 1: also answer the frequently asked question, is information members enter
Speaker 1: on Better Health ever sold to advertising platforms or third parties?
Speaker 1: Now they answer this that emphatic no period. But that
Speaker 1: can't be the whole story because on their own privacy policy,
Speaker 1: in the section called Purposes for which Information is used,
Speaker 1: they say your information may be used to quote personalized
Speaker 1: website experience, including targeted offers and ads throughout our websites,
Speaker 1: third party sites, and via email or text message. They
Speaker 1: also say, quote, you may share your information with any
Speaker 1: subsidiaries or parent companies within our corporate group. So who
Speaker 1: are these other companies in your corporate group? And what
Speaker 1: products are being advertised? It's better help using your personal
Speaker 1: mental information to buy ads or sell ads. Why rely
Speaker 1: on such vague language when discussing something as important as
Speaker 1: our health and privacy? I believe Better Health is intentionally
Speaker 1: exploiting vague language and gray areas and their privacy policies
Speaker 1: to mislead the public, which under normal circumstances is bad,
Speaker 1: but it's especially egregious to do that after a tragedy.
Speaker 1: Do you feel like the public it is owed a
Speaker 1: little bit of transparency about this partnership. I feel like,
Speaker 1: especially given that the folks who were at that festival
Speaker 1: are are like a lot of them are young people.
Speaker 1: I feel like it is a public like a public
Speaker 1: good for Better Help and or Travis Scott to say, hey,
Speaker 1: we're doing this therapy, this therapy partnership for folks who
Speaker 1: were impacted by this tragedy. Here's who's making money on it?
Speaker 1: Here's how your data is going to be used, you
Speaker 1: know here like whether Travis got Better Help or both
Speaker 1: are making some sort of like cut or kickback. Do
Speaker 1: you feel like it's in the public interest for us
Speaker 1: to have that information in a transparent way? Oh my god. Yes.
Speaker 1: And like in my most recent TikTok video that's on
Speaker 1: Twitter and everywhere else. Uh, I'm saying that, like what's
Speaker 1: going on, Like, let's be clear here who's getting paid?
Speaker 1: Uh do how do you continue care after that one month?
Speaker 1: How much is it going to cost in order to
Speaker 1: like continue Like there's it's just also murky. Uh So, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I would love if there's more transparency around it. But
Speaker 1: the way that Better Help operates is just like they're
Speaker 1: very good at like making ship real vague um and
Speaker 1: unfortunately whenever I push against them or anyone pushes up
Speaker 1: against them, they just get even more vague and more
Speaker 1: vague and get into that great area. So hopefully this
Speaker 1: will like get more people to become concerned and ask
Speaker 1: them to be more transparent about what they're doing and
Speaker 1: the deal that's being set up. Travis Scott, Yeah, I
Speaker 1: just feel like we're in this age where things that
Speaker 1: technology that is meant to be like a wellness focused
Speaker 1: thing or a mental health focused thing, we're in this
Speaker 1: weird gray area where everything feels kind of scammy and
Speaker 1: like not really regulated. And so we have all of
Speaker 1: these apps that are sort of mental health ish or
Speaker 1: like wellness ish or like medical care ish, and you
Speaker 1: just have to act like are these regulated? Are they safe?
Speaker 1: Am I actually getting good information from like a competent
Speaker 1: trained medical health professional. I wonder like, do you feel
Speaker 1: the same way that we're in this sort of wild
Speaker 1: West where there are so many tech platforms offering us
Speaker 1: wellness or you know, medical care, but in this very
Speaker 1: gray area way, or they can sort of avoid having
Speaker 1: to answer some of these questions about you know, the
Speaker 1: quality of care that you're actually getting. Oh yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1: And and they're so savvy, they're so slick, they know
Speaker 1: exactly what they're doing. So you're just kind of like
Speaker 1: give this like these ish services and it works well enough.
Speaker 1: And also you know, uh, all these like podcasts or
Speaker 1: MPR whoever, like it's such a good look for them,
Speaker 1: like oh, therapy, you know, like it looks like there
Speaker 1: it's so nice to quote to quote partner with them
Speaker 1: because it's sort of like lifts their brand up, you know.
Speaker 1: So it's just like this feel good, lovely thing, but
Speaker 1: we don't know what's going on, like right behind the scenes.
Speaker 1: And MPR, fuck you, MPR. They're like, I hate that MPR.
Speaker 1: It's like running ads all over the place. I mean
Speaker 1: it's all over Oregon with like NPR and OPB over
Speaker 1: here where they're just I'm constantly hearing Better Health and
Speaker 1: I'm emailing NPR and Oregon Public Pockets. I'm like letting
Speaker 1: them know, like I want to be on your show.
Speaker 1: This is not okay. If you understood the values of
Speaker 1: this company, you would have a fucking aneurysm about it.
Speaker 1: But like they're not on thing to me, and they're
Speaker 1: not doing anything about it. So it's this weird like
Speaker 1: halo effect that happens when they do partner with the
Speaker 1: Better Help and like yeah, no, yeah, I don't know,
Speaker 1: I'm agreeing with everything that you're saying. So yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: and it's I mean, you said a melibal and and
Speaker 1: I know in the podcast based specifically that Better Help
Speaker 1: has a it's like one of those ubiquitous brands that
Speaker 1: you hear if you listen to podcast, you've definitely heard
Speaker 1: a better help add and I have you know, friends
Speaker 1: and colleagues who I'm sure do better help adds. And
Speaker 1: I'm not trying to like call anybody out, but I
Speaker 1: also feel like you have to take a little bit
Speaker 1: of responsibility for the for like not so it's not
Speaker 1: just a financial arrangement where they pay you and you
Speaker 1: read the ad. But if you sound like you're endorsing
Speaker 1: their their values and endorsing their practices, and if you're
Speaker 1: using your like MPR voice to make this service seem
Speaker 1: really good and progressive and like a good like a
Speaker 1: good idea, like, I do think we have to step
Speaker 1: back and some hard questions of ourselves about whether or
Speaker 1: not we're allowing brands whose values do not align with
Speaker 1: our own to be kind of brandwashed by our like
Speaker 1: you know, slick podcaster voice or you know, or be
Speaker 1: like the relationship that podcast listeners have with the with
Speaker 1: their hosts right like I feel like it's like it
Speaker 1: exploits the connection that listeners have with their favorite podcast
Speaker 1: host to make these to make brands that are not
Speaker 1: so good, uh seem like they're actually aligned with their values.
Speaker 1: I guess you said it totally. I keep on saying it.
Speaker 1: But like Better Health as one of the best marketing
Speaker 1: teams I've ever seen there, so good, and they know
Speaker 1: exactly when to turn off their comments on TikTok videos
Speaker 1: because oh they're totally fucking off because like all the
Speaker 1: TikTok ers are just like whoa, we don't like this.
Speaker 1: This isn't like thank you Jeff for like being transparent
Speaker 1: and like like blaming their privacy policy. We're doing a
Speaker 1: spam all their TikTok videos and you can't they block
Speaker 1: everybody like they know how to turn all that ship off. Um,
Speaker 1: so yeah, I think podcasters and everyone with their NPR
Speaker 1: voices like really need to think about And also, like
Speaker 1: I guarantee all these podcasters are not getting their therapy
Speaker 1: through Better Help, Like no way are they actually doing that.
Speaker 1: Uh so yeah, you got me all round up. I agree.
Speaker 1: It's interesting you mentioned the you know, the halo effect there,
Speaker 1: and you know this moment that we're in where there
Speaker 1: are all these potentially scammy ish mental health services and
Speaker 1: it's it's like mental health it's only sort of recently
Speaker 1: become a thing that we all are talking about and
Speaker 1: acknowledging as like something that needs to be dealt with,
Speaker 1: but it's still like a very private personal thing. Uh.
Speaker 1: And I wonder that like contributes to the the viability
Speaker 1: of scams like this. What you know, maybe it's a scam,
Speaker 1: maybe it's not. But like when an actor is going
Speaker 1: to participate in delivering mental health services but not respect
Speaker 1: that like privacy piece of it and just you know,
Speaker 1: completely violate those norms in pursuit of profit. Uh, it's
Speaker 1: a pretty dangerous tech enabled place. One of the good
Speaker 1: things is that it's sort of like breaking it's mental
Speaker 1: health stigma is is like reducing Uh. So that's that's
Speaker 1: also one of the things that's like a good thing
Speaker 1: that's happening. But at what cost because there's like so
Speaker 1: much information and data sharing and like ads being directed
Speaker 1: more towards you because of this. So like yea for
Speaker 1: accessibility for like these stigmatis, these stigmatization Um. But like
Speaker 1: this is like profiting these huge tech companies so much
Speaker 1: and it's so upsetting and it's so disturbing and we
Speaker 1: need to talk even more about it. M m hm. Well,
Speaker 1: I mean so we we we don't funk with better health,
Speaker 1: but as we know, like it can be so hard
Speaker 1: to get access to with therapists, So like, what are
Speaker 1: some alternatives to services like better health that might be
Speaker 1: a little less scammy, uh and exploited. If folks out
Speaker 1: there want to access mental health services but don't know
Speaker 1: where to start. Um. I mean I'm biased, but I
Speaker 1: love therapy dem dot com. Uh start there. There's another
Speaker 1: therapist directory that I am in love with, Inclusive Therapists
Speaker 1: dot com um the same sort of vibe and mission
Speaker 1: and values of therapy dem dot com um. The thing
Speaker 1: is is, like you kind of have to be um
Speaker 1: okay or understand accepting of the fact that, like this
Speaker 1: is going to be a journey for you. Finding a
Speaker 1: therapist is going to take some time. And the reason
Speaker 1: it's going to take times because you need to find
Speaker 1: somebody who's a really good match and who can competently
Speaker 1: treat you. So you're gonna have to like interview three,
Speaker 1: four or five ten therapists possibly to like find somebody
Speaker 1: who's a good match for you. It's grueling and it
Speaker 1: sucks and I don't like it. But starting therapy don
Speaker 1: dot com Inclusive therapist dot com even just like googling
Speaker 1: somebody you know, like trying or going to psychology today,
Speaker 1: um dot com to like go through their therapist directory,
Speaker 1: buying a therapist at some private practice. Uh, you'll like
Speaker 1: the the quality of care is through the roof compared
Speaker 1: to the quality of care that you get from better help,
Speaker 1: just because the way the better help is like set up. Um,
Speaker 1: so have some patience, UM, really educate yourself. Ask all
Speaker 1: of the questions that you want, like how can you
Speaker 1: complemential train competently? Train me? What's your background? But also
Speaker 1: like if you want, you can be like are you married?
Speaker 1: Do you have kids? Are you from this city? Where
Speaker 1: do you hang out? Um? What what do you think about?
Speaker 1: Like who's your favorite sports team? Do you garden? Whatever
Speaker 1: the funk you want? Like? Are you like ask all
Speaker 1: the questions. Therapists don't have to answer all these questions,
Speaker 1: but I want you to ask all the questions that
Speaker 1: will make you feel more comfortable UM talking to that therapist.
Speaker 1: Ask them like do you diagnose? What do you think
Speaker 1: my diagnosis might be? What is treatment gonna look like? Um?
Speaker 1: Are you cool? Whatever you need to do? Uh? So
Speaker 1: you need to start therapy done dot com wherever the
Speaker 1: hell you want to start and then understand that you
Speaker 1: have to like go on a journey. Honestly, if it
Speaker 1: was not for your TikTok's I would not have known
Speaker 1: any of this. Like, I don't think there's a lot
Speaker 1: of resources out there to help people understand companies or
Speaker 1: platforms life, better health. And so I'm so I'm so
Speaker 1: glad that you're making the content that you are because
Speaker 1: I think that you're helping people take ownership over there,
Speaker 1: or you're empowering people to advocate for them so eloms
Speaker 1: and take ownership over how they access these services. And
Speaker 1: so I'm so grateful for you. Uh where can folks
Speaker 1: keep up with you? Yeah, so you can look for
Speaker 1: search for therapy then on TikTok and Twitter and Instagram. UM.
Speaker 1: I am also I produce a podcast called Swoon Love
Speaker 1: Lessons with Julian Gina. So Julian and Gina are UM
Speaker 1: sex therapists and experts, and every now and then I'll
Speaker 1: hop on and being on a podcast episode with them. UM,
Speaker 1: So you can find me. They're talking like giving love advice.
Speaker 1: I'm an amazing and giving love advice. Uh so so
Speaker 1: that's where you can find me, UM and you can
Speaker 1: personally email me at Hello at therapyv dot com if
Speaker 1: you have any questions. The astral World disaster has turned
Speaker 1: into a hotbed of conspiracy theories. In our next episode,
Speaker 1: we'll hear from researcher Abbey Richards about why this tragedy
Speaker 1: has resulted in satanic panic on social media platforms like TikTok.
Speaker 1: Got a story about an interesting thing in tech, or
Speaker 1: just want to say hi, You can reach us at
Speaker 1: hello at tang godi dot com. You can also find
Speaker 1: transcripts for today's episode at tang godi dot com. There
Speaker 1: Are No Girls on the Internet was created by me
Speaker 1: Bridget Tod. It's a production of iHeart Radio and Unboss
Speaker 1: creative Jonathan Strickland as our executive producer. Terry Harrison is
Speaker 1: our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer.
Speaker 1: I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If you want to help
Speaker 1: us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. For
Speaker 1: more podcasts from I heart Radio, check out the iHeart
Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts.