1 00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:05,880 Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet, as a production 2 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:12,960 Speaker 1: of My Heart Radio and Unboss Creative. I'm Bridget Tod 3 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:14,840 Speaker 1: and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet. 4 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:21,160 Speaker 1: Ten people died, including three children, and hundreds more were 5 00:00:21,200 --> 00:00:25,720 Speaker 1: injured at rapper Travis Scott's Astro World music festival in Houston, Texas. 6 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:30,560 Speaker 1: Firsthand video footage on social media shows young people pleading 7 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:33,120 Speaker 1: with crew members to stop the performance because people in 8 00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:37,320 Speaker 1: the crowd were unresponsive, but authorities say Travis Scott continued 9 00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:40,360 Speaker 1: to perform for thirty seven minutes after Houston police and 10 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:42,960 Speaker 1: firefighters were called to what had been deemed a mass 11 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:46,239 Speaker 1: casualty event. Travis Scott even brought out rapper Drake for 12 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:49,240 Speaker 1: a guest appearance as many in the crowd screamed for help. 13 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:52,239 Speaker 1: It's not clear if Travis Scott knew the severity of 14 00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:55,320 Speaker 1: the situation, but Scott does have a history of inciting 15 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:58,320 Speaker 1: crowds into dangerous behavior at his concerts. He's even faced 16 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 1: charges for it at past concerts and Live Nation, the 17 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:05,240 Speaker 1: company behind Astro World has a long history of safety violations. 18 00:01:05,920 --> 00:01:08,840 Speaker 1: As the footage coming out of the event is horrifying, 19 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:12,400 Speaker 1: and because of Travis Scott's fan base. This was happening 20 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 1: to very young people, kids. I was getting winded, I 21 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:18,000 Speaker 1: was using all the energy I had left in me, 22 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:20,679 Speaker 1: and I came to the point where I was accepting 23 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:23,839 Speaker 1: my dead. In a statement, Travis Scott says he didn't 24 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 1: know people had died until after he left the stage. 25 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:29,040 Speaker 1: He also announced what he called a partnership with the 26 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:31,560 Speaker 1: therapy app Better Help to provide a free month of 27 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:35,080 Speaker 1: therapy to those impacted by the tragedy, which on space 28 00:01:35,160 --> 00:01:37,880 Speaker 1: may sound great, but Better Help has also been called 29 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:40,120 Speaker 1: out for its murky policies regarding how they used the 30 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:43,360 Speaker 1: data of clients and how they treat mental health services 31 00:01:43,360 --> 00:01:46,160 Speaker 1: in general. Not to be clear, I am not an 32 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:50,120 Speaker 1: expert on digital health services, but Dr Michael Amato, our 33 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 1: show's producer and chief science officer, is Michael was a 34 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:57,320 Speaker 1: psychologist who does research on digital health interventions and he 35 00:01:57,440 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 1: leads the data team that supports digital products, which is 36 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 1: hundreds of thousands of people overcome addiction. Mike, can I 37 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 1: sit down with Jeff Gunther, a therapist who runs therapy 38 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:09,880 Speaker 1: then a resource to match people with diverse therapists, who 39 00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:12,680 Speaker 1: uses this platform on TikTok to warn people that apps 40 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:16,120 Speaker 1: like better Help might not be as good as they seem. 41 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:20,760 Speaker 1: I am Jeff gunther licensed professional counselor. So, Jeff, you 42 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:23,720 Speaker 1: run a resource called the Therapy Den. How did this 43 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:28,239 Speaker 1: resource come to be? Yeah, so I'm in a therapist 44 00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:32,000 Speaker 1: or practice in therapists. Two thousand five, I started a 45 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:36,359 Speaker 1: local therapist directory in Portland's that's where I live. And 46 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:41,240 Speaker 1: the Portland Therapist directory grew and I learned um about 47 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:43,359 Speaker 1: what therapists are wanting, on what clients are wanting when 48 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:46,359 Speaker 1: they're looking for a therapist. Then back like three or 49 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:48,960 Speaker 1: four years ago, I used all that knowledge to launch 50 00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:51,480 Speaker 1: therapy den dot com and it was sort of like 51 00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:58,760 Speaker 1: meant to counter another huge therapist directory, Psychology Today. Psychology Today. 52 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 1: You might be aware of their magazine. You'll find Psychology 53 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:06,080 Speaker 1: todayse magazines like in all of the therapist waiting rooms. 54 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:08,760 Speaker 1: One of the things I don't like about their magazine 55 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:13,799 Speaker 1: is that, basically, over the like many many decades that 56 00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 1: they've been producing their magazine, they primarily only have very 57 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:23,280 Speaker 1: good looking people on the cover, very skinny women, um 58 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 1: that are predominantly white. So um, there's no diversity on 59 00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 1: their magazine cover, and that transfers over to their therapist directory, 60 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:40,280 Speaker 1: which is sort of like always rankings number one on Google. Uh. 61 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 1: So they you can't go to psychology today and find 62 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:46,720 Speaker 1: a therapist that is competently trained in racial justice or 63 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:53,920 Speaker 1: and that is competently trained in treating transgender people or UM. 64 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:57,080 Speaker 1: For the longest time, you can search therapists by gender, 65 00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 1: and they only had male and female gender. So there 66 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:03,800 Speaker 1: was like I made therapy dender the Therapy then directory 67 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:06,320 Speaker 1: to kind of like challenge them and force them or 68 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:11,680 Speaker 1: encourage them to evolve. And psychology today has been slowly 69 00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 1: kind of evolving. UM. I don't think that they totally 70 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:18,080 Speaker 1: meet the needs of modern clients, but they're doing something 71 00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:21,080 Speaker 1: about it, and I'm happy about that. So Therapy then 72 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 1: was sort of like, all right, I'm gonna like try 73 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 1: to create this disruptive force in the therapist directory uh field, 74 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:32,159 Speaker 1: which like isn't very big um. And so that was 75 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:36,800 Speaker 1: the main agenda and then we can get into it. 76 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:39,120 Speaker 1: But like back in two thousand and fifteen, when like 77 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:42,279 Speaker 1: better Help and talk space started to become a thing, 78 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:45,640 Speaker 1: I was like, oh, okay, like there's somebody I need 79 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:48,120 Speaker 1: to target as well. I know when I was first 80 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:50,240 Speaker 1: looking for a therapist. A few years ago. I knew 81 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 1: that I wanted a black woman, and that's partially because 82 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 1: I had heard from my black girlfriends of these awful 83 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:58,600 Speaker 1: experiences of having to spend their time in therapy, you know, 84 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 1: educating their white rapiste about things like systemic racism. And 85 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:04,000 Speaker 1: I knew that I didn't want to do that. But 86 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:07,240 Speaker 1: finding a black woman therapist for me was incredibly difficult. 87 00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:10,839 Speaker 1: It was like finding a needle in a haystack. Yeah, exactly. 88 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:13,039 Speaker 1: That isn't how therapy should be. Like you should not 89 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:15,880 Speaker 1: be spending time that you're paying for to educate your 90 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:19,599 Speaker 1: client or educate your therapist on who you are, your culture, 91 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:23,719 Speaker 1: your background, the language that you use, where you're coming from. 92 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:27,760 Speaker 1: You know, your your religion, your ethnicity. So that's why 93 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 1: therapy then was created so that we can like create 94 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:31,960 Speaker 1: like a ton of filters so that you can like 95 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:35,120 Speaker 1: figure out how you can find a therapist that already 96 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:39,600 Speaker 1: matches with you and in lots of different ways. Um. 97 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 1: And also I've like taken a stance on like here 98 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:45,840 Speaker 1: are a ton of different questions that clients should be 99 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:50,720 Speaker 1: asking their therapist in the first session. If you're if 100 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 1: you're black, and you're seeing a therapist that's white, you 101 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:56,480 Speaker 1: need to ask that that therapist like what makes you 102 00:05:56,520 --> 00:05:58,599 Speaker 1: How can you competently treat me? What do you know 103 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:01,000 Speaker 1: about my ethnicity? How do you feel when if I'm 104 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:03,720 Speaker 1: going to talk about how racist white people are, Like 105 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:08,120 Speaker 1: what do you think about you know, the black lives matters, 106 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 1: and like all the protests and like there's just like 107 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:14,440 Speaker 1: hundreds of like questions that you could ask your therapist 108 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:16,120 Speaker 1: to make sure that they are a good fit for you. 109 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:17,680 Speaker 1: And I don't think that a lot of clients know 110 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:21,120 Speaker 1: that they can like interview their therapist on that first 111 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:24,480 Speaker 1: session and ask that therapists tell me, like the specific 112 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:27,839 Speaker 1: training that you've received, talk talk to me about like 113 00:06:27,839 --> 00:06:31,200 Speaker 1: the supervisors and the consultation groups that you're in. So 114 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:33,040 Speaker 1: I know that, so that I know that you can 115 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:36,839 Speaker 1: competently treat me. So that's a whole thing. Yeah. I 116 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:40,919 Speaker 1: love that you're giving clients and just people the like 117 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:44,200 Speaker 1: empowering them with a language and tools to to advocate 118 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:47,800 Speaker 1: for themselves. I love that. So you talked about your 119 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 1: relationship with these therapy apps that have really become ubiquitous 120 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:54,560 Speaker 1: in the last few years, things like better Help and 121 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 1: Talk space. You know, when I first heard about these apps, 122 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 1: they did really seem like an accessible way for folks 123 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 1: to access my therapists. But so many therapists I've heard 124 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:07,080 Speaker 1: from do not like these apps. Can you tell me 125 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:11,880 Speaker 1: why that is? Yeah, but let's start there. Like, you're right, 126 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:16,720 Speaker 1: the accessibility that these apps have like tapped into it 127 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:20,120 Speaker 1: is so incredibly difficult, and I wish it wasn't. It's 128 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 1: a systemic issue. But it's so incredibly difficult for somebody 129 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:25,240 Speaker 1: to just like find a therapist it's a good match 130 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 1: for them. Um, There's a ton of searching that you 131 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:30,680 Speaker 1: have to do. There's confusing insurance that you have to 132 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 1: like wade through. Um, it can be expensive. There's like 133 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:39,000 Speaker 1: a ton of roadblocks. So many therapists are booked, especially 134 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 1: because everybody in the world decided to get therapy at 135 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:45,000 Speaker 1: the saying goddamn time, which is totally fine. I get it, 136 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:49,160 Speaker 1: I understand. I love that you're getting therapy. Um, but 137 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:53,680 Speaker 1: therapists are so busy, so you're just like you. Even 138 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:55,520 Speaker 1: if you find a therapist who is a good match, 139 00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 1: it's incredibly frustrating because they might not have any openings. 140 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 1: But then better how talk space cerebral other apps like 141 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 1: that have come along, and they're just say, hey, click 142 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:09,440 Speaker 1: a button. We are the uber of therapy. Download app, 143 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:12,280 Speaker 1: click this button, check the terms of service, don't worry 144 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 1: about reading and it's confusing anyways, and we will set 145 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:18,160 Speaker 1: you up with a therapist. Just and the therapist. Is 146 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:19,920 Speaker 1: it gonna Is that a good match? I don't know. 147 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:23,960 Speaker 1: We hope so maybe. Uh. But like they've tapped into 148 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:26,640 Speaker 1: the accessibility of part where it's just like it it's 149 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:30,120 Speaker 1: so understandable, like people are getting so frustrated, so of 150 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:32,800 Speaker 1: course they're going to go to these apps, especially like 151 00:08:32,920 --> 00:08:36,640 Speaker 1: in younger people that are used to doing that. Yeah, 152 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 1: that is an excellent point that they really did identify 153 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:44,319 Speaker 1: a true need that exists out there. Of it's difficult 154 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:48,200 Speaker 1: to find a therapist. And we talk a lot on 155 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:51,320 Speaker 1: this show about bad things that the internet and tech 156 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:53,439 Speaker 1: bring to us, but I'm talking to Bridget the other day. 157 00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 1: One of the things you mentioned was how her favorite 158 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:59,240 Speaker 1: stories are about the great things that the internet does 159 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:02,520 Speaker 1: to like bring the people together or help somebody be 160 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 1: seen or find whatever it is that they're looking for. 161 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:09,000 Speaker 1: And it really seems like they sort of zeroed in 162 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 1: on that and it is a real need that they've addressed. 163 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:17,319 Speaker 1: It is. It's a real need. And on the platforms 164 00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:21,959 Speaker 1: there are actually amazing therapists, Like my beef is not 165 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:26,960 Speaker 1: with the therapists that are contracted to provide therapy. Uh 166 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:32,240 Speaker 1: there they are like trained at um you know, and 167 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:36,680 Speaker 1: licensed and they're they're great. Uh So, yeah, they tap 168 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 1: into a need and somebody needed to do it. And 169 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:44,480 Speaker 1: it's because like because therapists and private practice cannot all 170 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:46,960 Speaker 1: get their ship together. We're all running our own little 171 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:51,840 Speaker 1: individual small businesses. Um, so we can't all come together 172 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:54,120 Speaker 1: and like figure out how to solve this problem. And 173 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:56,880 Speaker 1: it's not just therapistic being to come together. It's just 174 00:09:57,000 --> 00:09:59,720 Speaker 1: like so many layers of everything that needs to come 175 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:01,959 Speaker 1: together in order to fix this. So these tech companies, 176 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:04,520 Speaker 1: which are super savvy, they're the ones that did it. 177 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:07,839 Speaker 1: So bravo, I hate you. You compared these apps to 178 00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:10,480 Speaker 1: Uber and you know, it's one of those things like 179 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 1: should getting a therapist, should starting the journey to like 180 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:18,320 Speaker 1: deal with your trauma, unpack your issues? Should that look 181 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:21,839 Speaker 1: like an Uber business model that we know has so 182 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:25,319 Speaker 1: much exploitation, whether it's the exploitation of drivers, the exploitation 183 00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:29,640 Speaker 1: of writer writer details and writer privacy. Should should that 184 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:33,520 Speaker 1: relationship mimic uber and I would argue, no, it shouldn't. 185 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:36,840 Speaker 1: That accessibility is good. The idea of having a therapist 186 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 1: at your fingertips sounds great, but when you actually think 187 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:43,839 Speaker 1: about it harder, you're like, wait, should therapy be the 188 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:46,680 Speaker 1: same be a similar kind of business framework as something 189 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:48,840 Speaker 1: like an uber where you can get a ride at 190 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:51,680 Speaker 1: the push of a button. And maybe this driver isn't 191 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:54,080 Speaker 1: being treated well and maybe they aren't being super careful 192 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:56,360 Speaker 1: with my data. Who knows, I don't know. The answers 193 00:10:56,440 --> 00:10:58,679 Speaker 1: might be buried in the third page of some you know, 194 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:01,959 Speaker 1: murky privacy documents somewhere, Like I'm not really sure. Should 195 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 1: getting into a relationship with a therapist really be the 196 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:07,439 Speaker 1: same way that it is when you just like hail 197 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 1: a taxi to your home? Yeah? I mean no, I 198 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:13,360 Speaker 1: think not at all. And because like you know, if 199 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:17,719 Speaker 1: someone's deriving you from the restaurant to your home, like 200 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:21,199 Speaker 1: I don't know, I guess that person can kind of 201 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:24,199 Speaker 1: be anybody as long as they're like good enough. You know, 202 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:26,760 Speaker 1: they're not going to bother you, They're gonna like be 203 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 1: quiet whatever, they'll they'll do what they need to do 204 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:30,880 Speaker 1: to get you from like point A to point B. 205 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:33,319 Speaker 1: But when you're looking for a therapist, it's not just 206 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 1: like are they good enough? Are they going to talk 207 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:38,839 Speaker 1: to your listen, it's like are they actually qualified to 208 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:41,959 Speaker 1: treat you? Do they understand your experience in a like 209 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:45,719 Speaker 1: deep way? Um? And you need to shop around for 210 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 1: therapists and talk to multiple therapists in order to find 211 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 1: somebody who's a good enough match. Um And instead of 212 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:55,199 Speaker 1: just being handed one like Uber would do, or like 213 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:58,560 Speaker 1: talk space or better help does so. No, I don't 214 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:05,120 Speaker 1: think so, but there are um apps and um tech 215 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:08,760 Speaker 1: companies that like understand that better help is not doing 216 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:12,439 Speaker 1: this well and somebody else needs to do it better. UM. 217 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 1: So there is a like a newer app that's I 218 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:17,640 Speaker 1: think it's maybe just in like Florida or Georgia right 219 00:12:17,679 --> 00:12:21,440 Speaker 1: now called Hurdle. Have you ever heard of Hurdle? Yeah, 220 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:24,120 Speaker 1: it's I just heard about it. And they contacted me 221 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:27,400 Speaker 1: to like let me know about what they're doing. UM 222 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:29,719 Speaker 1: And they contacted me because they're like, hey, can you 223 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:35,120 Speaker 1: sponsor us on TikTok? And they said, uh no, but 224 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:38,720 Speaker 1: only because it's sort of like conflicts with therapy then 225 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:42,079 Speaker 1: where I'm trying to connect people. So it's anyways, I 226 00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:44,559 Speaker 1: love them and what they're doing, what they started out 227 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 1: doing where they're like paying therapists, Well we should talk 228 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:50,600 Speaker 1: about that with Better Help um, because they're not uh, 229 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:53,480 Speaker 1: and they're like making sure that all the therapists on 230 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 1: the platform are competently trained in racial justice and social 231 00:12:57,480 --> 00:13:00,439 Speaker 1: justice and their trans competent and queer competent and and 232 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 1: they're continuously going through trainings um there and so like 233 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:07,640 Speaker 1: they're doing it the right way. So there are apps 234 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 1: and services out there that are starting to do it 235 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:13,720 Speaker 1: the right way. But Better Help and Talk Space they're 236 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:18,600 Speaker 1: like these first movers that have amazing marketing, especially Better 237 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:23,079 Speaker 1: Help uh and and yeah, so it might be hard 238 00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:28,319 Speaker 1: to compete with them. It's it's interesting that you say 239 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:32,840 Speaker 1: that they have better marketing, you know, because I've looked 240 00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:36,320 Speaker 1: at your TikTok's and I think one of the big 241 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:41,400 Speaker 1: criticisms is how they harvest people's data and use it 242 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:45,400 Speaker 1: for marketing and advertising. And uh, you know, I clicked 243 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:48,480 Speaker 1: through I read their privacy form and yeah, they're just 244 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:51,560 Speaker 1: using all of your data, including your communications with your 245 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:56,360 Speaker 1: counselor for third party marketing, and so it made me wonder, 246 00:13:56,840 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 1: like how much of their business model is actual therapy 247 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:04,920 Speaker 1: delivery and how much are they in advertising them exactly? Yes, 248 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:09,680 Speaker 1: they get so much amazing personal data on your mental 249 00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:12,760 Speaker 1: health information, who you are, when was your you know, 250 00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:15,600 Speaker 1: are you suicidal? When was your last suicide attempt? How 251 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:19,360 Speaker 1: much money do you make? Uh? Where do you live? Um, 252 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:24,360 Speaker 1: what are your pronouns? What's your sexual orientation? Uh, what's 253 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:29,120 Speaker 1: your gender? Like there's They get the most detailed information 254 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:31,920 Speaker 1: about how much, how often you're talking to your therapist, 255 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:34,640 Speaker 1: if you're meeting your therapistical, if you're married, counseling goals, 256 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 1: like so much stuff, Um, incredibly valuable. I don't know 257 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:41,640 Speaker 1: like how much money they make off of it, or 258 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:43,360 Speaker 1: if they make any money off it, if they're making 259 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:46,160 Speaker 1: all of their money off of that, but they that 260 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:51,040 Speaker 1: that information is incredibly valuable, and they did. Um, they 261 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 1: were a little bit more clear a few months ago 262 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 1: when I made one of my first TikTok videos about 263 00:14:57,160 --> 00:14:59,840 Speaker 1: them and going through their privacy policy about like all 264 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:04,000 Speaker 1: information that they collect since I sort of like exposed 265 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 1: them and it's got you know, over a million views 266 00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:09,680 Speaker 1: of their privacy policy. And they've changed their privacy policy 267 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 1: to make it so much more vague and so much 268 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:17,600 Speaker 1: more confusing and actually gives them so much more leeway 269 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:20,440 Speaker 1: when it comes to like sharing your data. They can 270 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:22,840 Speaker 1: share your data with their corporate partners. Do you know 271 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:25,760 Speaker 1: who their corporate partners are? Fuck? No, who the funk knows? 272 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:28,040 Speaker 1: I have no idea. They don't list them. They can 273 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 1: share it with their ad network. You know who's in 274 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:33,040 Speaker 1: their ad network? I have no fucking idea. Probably a 275 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 1: ton of people. Um, they can. They can use it 276 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 1: for marketing purposes and whatever the hell they want to 277 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:42,840 Speaker 1: use it for. Um. So we don't know why what 278 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:45,000 Speaker 1: they're using for exactly. We don't know who they're sharing 279 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:46,760 Speaker 1: it with. We don't know how much money they're making 280 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:48,800 Speaker 1: off of it. And the only way that you can 281 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 1: use their act is if you check off the terms 282 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:57,480 Speaker 1: of service, which like allows them to use all this information. Um, 283 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:00,360 Speaker 1: I would love it if they gave you an option 284 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:04,000 Speaker 1: to not like sell your data on my like HBO 285 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:07,400 Speaker 1: Max subscription. There's a little check box that says, are 286 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 1: we allowed? Can we like use your third party data? 287 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:12,080 Speaker 1: And can just be like Nope, better help doesn't do that, 288 00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:13,760 Speaker 1: and why would they ever do it because they're probably 289 00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:16,200 Speaker 1: making a ton of money. Something else that I'd like 290 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:19,800 Speaker 1: to mention is that you know they're able to sell 291 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 1: your information to third parties, and so if they sold 292 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:26,520 Speaker 1: your information to a company like Facebook, then you think 293 00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 1: about all the different data that we know that Facebook 294 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:32,280 Speaker 1: is able to collect, combined with whatever they have from 295 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:35,200 Speaker 1: your your relationship with your counselor through better health, it 296 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:38,520 Speaker 1: becomes clearer just like we're not talking about little bits 297 00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:42,080 Speaker 1: and pieces of data. They really can mine and harvest 298 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:45,520 Speaker 1: a real composite like portrait of who you are and 299 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:48,840 Speaker 1: sell that for profit. And I just I'm I just 300 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:53,000 Speaker 1: fundamentally believe that that is not how a relationship with 301 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:55,360 Speaker 1: a mental health specialist should look and and and to me, 302 00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 1: there is not another word for that other than like exploitation. 303 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:01,120 Speaker 1: And like I guess, I really see it as this 304 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:07,840 Speaker 1: kind of capitalistic mining of the most sensitive stuff about 305 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:11,960 Speaker 1: us so that corporate interests can get better pockets. And 306 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 1: it's just so depressing and demoralizing. God, it is, it 307 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:31,600 Speaker 1: really is. Let's take a quick break at our back. 308 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:36,040 Speaker 1: So you might be thinking, what about hippop the health 309 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:39,840 Speaker 1: Insurance Portability and Accountability Act, a law that created national 310 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:43,520 Speaker 1: standards to protect patient health information from being disclosed without consent. 311 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:46,720 Speaker 1: Doesn't HIPPA prevent our health information from being used to 312 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:49,880 Speaker 1: sell things? In this case, the answer is not really. 313 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 1: Our producer Mike works with health information, and that means 314 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:55,880 Speaker 1: he spends a lot of time dealing with hippop Here's 315 00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:58,520 Speaker 1: what he had to say. I work within the constraints 316 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 1: of HIPPA every day, and I think it's probably one 317 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 1: of the most misunderstood laws in America. People think HIPPA 318 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:06,000 Speaker 1: protects all of their health information all of the time, 319 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:09,440 Speaker 1: but it doesn't. HIPPA only applies to a very narrow 320 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:13,800 Speaker 1: set of actors and circumstances. Basically, it applies to healthcare 321 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:17,600 Speaker 1: providers and their contractors. Better Health is neither of those things. 322 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:21,880 Speaker 1: In a page on their website convincingly titled online Therapy Services, 323 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:25,440 Speaker 1: are they legit question mark, they repeatedly used phrases like 324 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:28,840 Speaker 1: HIPPO compliant therapists. What they don't say is that the 325 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:31,920 Speaker 1: therapists are bound by HIPPA because they're providing healthcare. But 326 00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:34,880 Speaker 1: Better Health the platform is not because they aren't providing healthcare. 327 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:38,199 Speaker 1: They're simply connecting you with the providers, and so they 328 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:40,560 Speaker 1: are bound only by the terms of service you accept 329 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:44,200 Speaker 1: by creating an account. Hippo was signed into law in 330 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:47,879 Speaker 1: around the same time Bill Clinton was describing the Internet 331 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:52,159 Speaker 1: as an information super highway. It's authors never imagined all 332 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:55,240 Speaker 1: the ways the Internet would revolutionize how we access healthcare. 333 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:58,000 Speaker 1: And so we've come to this place where most Americans 334 00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:01,440 Speaker 1: believe their private health information is eagally protected. But that's 335 00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:04,600 Speaker 1: just not always true. In reality, many of the digital 336 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:07,639 Speaker 1: services we use have no greater legal obligation to protect 337 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:11,160 Speaker 1: information about our health and information about what TV shows 338 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:13,119 Speaker 1: we like to watch or what types of sneakers we 339 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:16,600 Speaker 1: want to buy. So the question is are we okay 340 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:19,639 Speaker 1: with for profit tech companies like better help setting the 341 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:23,280 Speaker 1: president around privacy and digital health services, because that's where 342 00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:25,720 Speaker 1: we're at. And one of the questions that I get 343 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 1: all the time, because you're right, they know you intimately, 344 00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:32,920 Speaker 1: like so many things about you, And the question I 345 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:35,919 Speaker 1: get is like, how is this not a hip of violation? 346 00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:40,960 Speaker 1: What is making this okay? So if you are my 347 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:44,760 Speaker 1: client and you're seeing me in my private practice, I'm 348 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:47,840 Speaker 1: your therapist. Um, all the notes that I write on 349 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:51,719 Speaker 1: you is actually your property. That's all yours. You can 350 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 1: go to your therapist. You can be like, give you 351 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:57,440 Speaker 1: my notes, and a therapist legally has to hand that 352 00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:00,080 Speaker 1: over to you. That's all of your medical information and 353 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:02,800 Speaker 1: we need to give it. So if a if my 354 00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 1: client came in, it was like, Jeff, give me all 355 00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:07,920 Speaker 1: of the notes, even keeping on me, and I give 356 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:10,600 Speaker 1: it over to them. They could take all those all 357 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:12,920 Speaker 1: that mental health information and they could sell it to 358 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:16,400 Speaker 1: an advertiser. They can give it to Facebook. As a client, 359 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:18,639 Speaker 1: you can do whatever you want with your with your 360 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:21,639 Speaker 1: medical information. And that's what's happening. When you sign up 361 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:24,720 Speaker 1: for Better Help. You're saying, okay, um, all of the 362 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:28,399 Speaker 1: like information that I'm providing to this therapist is mine, 363 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:31,200 Speaker 1: and now I'm giving it to you Better Help. You 364 00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:33,720 Speaker 1: can do whatever you want with it. So that's another 365 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 1: way that they're able to get around it. And so 366 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:37,680 Speaker 1: one of my big things was like, oh, you know, 367 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:41,399 Speaker 1: but I can suck over Better Help if I can 368 00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:45,800 Speaker 1: like go to the state licensing boards and all of 369 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:48,360 Speaker 1: the states I'd start with like California and New York 370 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:54,200 Speaker 1: and be like okay, y'all, uh therapists are seeing these clients, 371 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:58,119 Speaker 1: and they know that the client information that we like 372 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:02,040 Speaker 1: ethically legally have to keep confident dential is being given 373 00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:05,920 Speaker 1: to better help and given to like advertisers. Should these 374 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:08,840 Speaker 1: therapists be allowed to provide therapy and better help? Should 375 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:11,880 Speaker 1: this therapists be disciplined or have their license taken away? 376 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:14,280 Speaker 1: Not that I want to get those license taken away, 377 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:17,439 Speaker 1: but maybe I can like put pressure on better help. Um. 378 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:21,879 Speaker 1: And the problem is is that, like what I just mentioned, 379 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 1: it's the client information and they can hand it over. 380 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:28,560 Speaker 1: There also is somebody something in hippa where like hippa 381 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:31,840 Speaker 1: is just like everything has to say confidential unless maybe 382 00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:35,639 Speaker 1: it's used for marketing purposes and it's anonymised, So like 383 00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:39,359 Speaker 1: they also have that like a gray area. There's so 384 00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:43,160 Speaker 1: many things that are protecting better help. It seems though 385 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:47,120 Speaker 1: that like stepping back to harvest all of this personal 386 00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:51,240 Speaker 1: information about somebody's mental health and then use it to 387 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:55,720 Speaker 1: make advertising revenue, it just feels wrong, right, like oh 388 00:21:55,840 --> 00:22:00,399 Speaker 1: there's that. Yeah, it just doesn't sit well. It just 389 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:04,760 Speaker 1: doesn't feel okay. Um, that shouldn't be happening obviously, like 390 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:08,000 Speaker 1: abows your therapist nows anonymizing your info and selling it 391 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:11,119 Speaker 1: to advertisers, I would lose my license, uh and I 392 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:13,520 Speaker 1: should Um, that just shouldn't be a part of the 393 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:17,919 Speaker 1: therapy process. But we're in this like funky, weird, shitty 394 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:22,720 Speaker 1: capitalist whatever time where like that's okay, and they're incredibly 395 00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:24,920 Speaker 1: protected and they're going to probably continue to do that. 396 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:28,760 Speaker 1: And better help is you know, they interacted with me 397 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:31,159 Speaker 1: a little bit by like leaving some comments on some 398 00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:34,119 Speaker 1: of my TikTok videos, and now they have they're just 399 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:37,480 Speaker 1: ignoring me, which is probably a very good business decision 400 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:39,960 Speaker 1: on their then, because like, who the funk am? I? 401 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:45,040 Speaker 1: I mean, you did, like your TikTok's had an impact 402 00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:47,639 Speaker 1: when you were describing how they changed their you know, 403 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:50,760 Speaker 1: their privacy policy. For a hot second, I thought you 404 00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:53,120 Speaker 1: were gonna say they, you know, because of my tiktoks 405 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:55,480 Speaker 1: that got millions of views and they changed their privacy 406 00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:57,280 Speaker 1: policy for the better. But then it was like, oh, 407 00:22:57,359 --> 00:23:00,520 Speaker 1: they just made it even more vague. No, because of me, 408 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:04,879 Speaker 1: I made it worse for everybody. But like pointing this 409 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:06,800 Speaker 1: out there was like, cool, we need to be real 410 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:11,320 Speaker 1: fucking shady now, So you're welcome America. When I saw 411 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:14,640 Speaker 1: the news out of Texas. It had a really deep 412 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:17,720 Speaker 1: impact on me in a way that I almost can't 413 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:20,760 Speaker 1: even articulate why. There was something about the videos that 414 00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:23,520 Speaker 1: were coming out of it that just really hit me 415 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:26,800 Speaker 1: in a way that you know, you think that you're 416 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:30,880 Speaker 1: desensitized to tragedy and disaster, but something about those videos 417 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:34,399 Speaker 1: really stuck with me. And I think seeing like the 418 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:37,240 Speaker 1: live stream with an Apple logo on it, where I 419 00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:44,119 Speaker 1: knew that young people were facing really scary circumstances, I 420 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:49,320 Speaker 1: really can't shake the the deep disturbed way that that 421 00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:52,320 Speaker 1: how disturbing that was to me, Like I I don't 422 00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:53,680 Speaker 1: know why I've not been able to sort of like 423 00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:56,960 Speaker 1: move past it, but I have not. And when I 424 00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:00,399 Speaker 1: woke up again and saw that Travis Scott was partnering 425 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:03,879 Speaker 1: with Better Help, that really it just seemed like a 426 00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:08,200 Speaker 1: cherry on top of this exploitation cake where these young 427 00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:13,760 Speaker 1: people had really been deeply exploited in the deepest, deepest 428 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:17,440 Speaker 1: ways for profit, to to make money for corporate interest, 429 00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 1: whether we're talking about Live Nation, Travis Scott, the organizer's 430 00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:25,119 Speaker 1: Apple streaming platforms, whatever. And then in the aftermath of 431 00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:30,159 Speaker 1: that horrific traumatic tragedy, what they were being offered was 432 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:32,440 Speaker 1: just another way to serve them up to be further 433 00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:35,680 Speaker 1: mind and exploited. And it was it was like it 434 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:39,359 Speaker 1: broke my brain. I couldn't even conceptualize the depths to 435 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:42,800 Speaker 1: how broken so many systems are where that's the thing 436 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:45,480 Speaker 1: they're being offered and even still one month of it. 437 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:47,720 Speaker 1: So it's like it's already shitty what they're being offered, 438 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:49,840 Speaker 1: but it's not even that long. Some of these kids 439 00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:53,480 Speaker 1: probably have like complex PTSD. It takes longer than a 440 00:24:53,560 --> 00:25:00,440 Speaker 1: month to treat that. What were your thoughts on that partnership? Yeah, garbage. 441 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:02,000 Speaker 1: I thought it was a dumpster fire. I thought it was. 442 00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:05,000 Speaker 1: I felt the same way that you felt. So, yeah, 443 00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:08,800 Speaker 1: it's like a bunch of you know, corporations creating trauma 444 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:13,160 Speaker 1: and then sending those traumatized kids to Better Help where 445 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:14,960 Speaker 1: they're going to like mind their data and make a 446 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:18,880 Speaker 1: ton of money. Uh. It's it was disturbing, it was upsetting, 447 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:22,159 Speaker 1: and it reminded me of when Better Help used to. 448 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:24,200 Speaker 1: I still think they kind of do this, but back 449 00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:29,280 Speaker 1: in nineteen they were going to all the therapist directories 450 00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:31,960 Speaker 1: out there that attract, you know, the clients that are 451 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:34,680 Speaker 1: looking for therapists, and they were just trying to like 452 00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:37,960 Speaker 1: either buy them up or quote unquote partner with them 453 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:41,440 Speaker 1: in order to like take all of their business um 454 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:45,440 Speaker 1: and like direct those those users into the Better Help 455 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:50,119 Speaker 1: ecosystem um. And so they approached me when I like 456 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:53,520 Speaker 1: launched therapy then and they're like, hey, can we go 457 00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:57,920 Speaker 1: ahead and uh take like therapist profiles and add them 458 00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:01,240 Speaker 1: to your directory so that if any of the people 459 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:04,040 Speaker 1: that are using your directory that uh, you know, find 460 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:06,400 Speaker 1: they could like find one of our Better Help therapists 461 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:09,840 Speaker 1: and then create services or create you know, start therapy 462 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:15,080 Speaker 1: with them. And every time somebody signs up for Better 463 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:18,480 Speaker 1: Help through therapy, then it will pay you three hundred 464 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:22,639 Speaker 1: dollars UM, which is a ton of money. Uh. And 465 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:25,680 Speaker 1: because they're like, you could potentially make eighty thousand dollars 466 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:29,399 Speaker 1: a month because we've like made had the steal, created 467 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:31,560 Speaker 1: the steal with other therapist directories that are the same 468 00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:34,840 Speaker 1: size as yours. Uh. And I know those therapist directories 469 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:36,399 Speaker 1: and I know the owners and some of them are 470 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:38,439 Speaker 1: buddies of mine. So I was like talking to them 471 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:42,280 Speaker 1: about like what went on, and those therapist directories were 472 00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:45,240 Speaker 1: like basically taken over and just used as like a 473 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:48,120 Speaker 1: funnel in order to like, you know, get even more 474 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:51,040 Speaker 1: people to sign up for Better Help. Uh. So you 475 00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:53,920 Speaker 1: don't really own your therapist directory anymore. They just sort 476 00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:57,440 Speaker 1: of like take it over because they put thousands and thousands, 477 00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:01,280 Speaker 1: twenty thousand different therapist profiles or something like on on 478 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:07,080 Speaker 1: your directory. Uh. And it's also like therapy done is 479 00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:10,280 Speaker 1: about like matching people with like a good competent therapist 480 00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:12,120 Speaker 1: that you know is a good fit, and Better Help 481 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:15,040 Speaker 1: can't do that at all. It's a therapy now. Um 482 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:19,000 Speaker 1: So it didn't feel okay, it allowed like loose control, 483 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:21,399 Speaker 1: Like it just didn't feel like a good match at all. 484 00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:23,399 Speaker 1: And I like started to That's when I started to 485 00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:26,040 Speaker 1: really learn about their privacy policy and the data mining 486 00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:29,000 Speaker 1: and ship like that. And I would imagine that like 487 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:31,840 Speaker 1: all the marketing that they do that Better Help does, 488 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:34,520 Speaker 1: and all the podcasts and NPR and ship like that, 489 00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:37,520 Speaker 1: all of those companies are probably getting like a very 490 00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:41,040 Speaker 1: nice kick back because Better Help was like, hey, on average, 491 00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:43,879 Speaker 1: we make twelve hundred dollars, We bring in twelve hundred 492 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:47,239 Speaker 1: dollars when somebody signs up for Better Help, we are 493 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:51,080 Speaker 1: very much willing to like pay you three hundred dollars 494 00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:53,840 Speaker 1: when we collect twelve hundred dollars. Also, we're going to 495 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:56,520 Speaker 1: pay the therapist ship, so like it's not even like 496 00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:59,159 Speaker 1: we have like too much of an overhead cost. You 497 00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:02,760 Speaker 1: talk about how the therapists are just not only are 498 00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:06,639 Speaker 1: they not paid what like like a comparable amount that 499 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:09,200 Speaker 1: they can make in private practice or elsewhere, but also 500 00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:11,520 Speaker 1: you know they're paying I learned from your tiktoks they're 501 00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:14,239 Speaker 1: sometimes paid by the word, and so once they hit 502 00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:16,159 Speaker 1: their word count, they kind of have to decide if 503 00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:18,440 Speaker 1: they want to continue treating a client who very well, 504 00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:21,040 Speaker 1: maybe in crisis, basically out of the goodness of their 505 00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:24,000 Speaker 1: heart because they care about this client. For free um 506 00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:27,320 Speaker 1: clients can access their therapists twenty four hours a day, 507 00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:30,359 Speaker 1: seven days a week, which sounds really good in theory, 508 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:33,199 Speaker 1: but then you're like, should you have access to your 509 00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:36,440 Speaker 1: therapist seven I would say no, that maybe you should 510 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 1: have some some boundaries around how you access your therapists. 511 00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:42,480 Speaker 1: It's kind of stunning to hear about how much money 512 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:46,360 Speaker 1: they must be taking in via how much money gets 513 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 1: spent gets given to their actual therapists who are like 514 00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:53,960 Speaker 1: doing the work of sustaining this platform. Yeah, I mean 515 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:56,440 Speaker 1: the therapists are getting maybe around thirty a little less 516 00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:59,920 Speaker 1: than thirty dollars an hour. Um. Ideally, if you're a 517 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:01,800 Speaker 1: therapist and you're seeing clients who want to get at 518 00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:03,640 Speaker 1: least a hundred dollars an hour, that's what we're like 519 00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:06,160 Speaker 1: aiming for, if not more if you live in like 520 00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:10,600 Speaker 1: more expensive cities. Um. But but it helps, like we 521 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:14,760 Speaker 1: will pay you up to fifty dollars an hour if 522 00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:17,760 Speaker 1: you work more hours per week, So if you work 523 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:22,600 Speaker 1: up to fifty hours a week, you'll get our top pay, 524 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:27,240 Speaker 1: which is fucking bonkers. I don't even understand why that's 525 00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:30,680 Speaker 1: a pay scale that exists. Like work fifteen hours, get 526 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:33,600 Speaker 1: thirty dollars or less an hour, work up to fifty 527 00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:35,600 Speaker 1: hours a week more. I don't know. That's the whole 528 00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:38,880 Speaker 1: fucking thing. I hate that. Uh. And then it's they 529 00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:41,040 Speaker 1: pay you based on word counts, so you can't go 530 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,280 Speaker 1: over the word count that they like provide. If you 531 00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:48,080 Speaker 1: do start like providing more support, if you start texting 532 00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:50,800 Speaker 1: more support and going over the word count, you're working 533 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:53,320 Speaker 1: for fucking free therapist. They're not going to pay you 534 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:56,040 Speaker 1: for it. So maybe they're paying you thirty dollars an hour, 535 00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:58,600 Speaker 1: but it's actually a lot less if you like feel 536 00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:00,200 Speaker 1: like you need to give even more support or to 537 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:04,520 Speaker 1: that client. Um. And of course, just like uber and 538 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:07,560 Speaker 1: Left or whatever, like you're not getting benefits your contract. 539 00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:10,440 Speaker 1: You're not like getting paid time off. You know, like 540 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:13,280 Speaker 1: you have to provide all of your equipment and you know. 541 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:17,280 Speaker 1: So it's just like it's a bunch of bullshit that 542 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:20,200 Speaker 1: therapists are getting exploited, and they're able to exploit these 543 00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:23,120 Speaker 1: therapists that are usually like fresh out of grad school 544 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:25,480 Speaker 1: or just looking for a little part time work or something. 545 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:29,720 Speaker 1: And yeah, twenty four hour access to a therapist clinically 546 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:33,240 Speaker 1: no not okay, that's not creating self reliance. Uh, you 547 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:34,640 Speaker 1: need to be able to kind of like go and 548 00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:36,280 Speaker 1: do your thing and then be able to check back 549 00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:39,080 Speaker 1: with your therapist. I understand why that's appealing though, but 550 00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:42,560 Speaker 1: imagine understand that that therapist with a caseload of like 551 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:48,000 Speaker 1: ten fifty clients a week, You're they're getting pinned all 552 00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:51,240 Speaker 1: the fucking time. So there's no way that a therapist 553 00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:53,960 Speaker 1: is able. But like a therapist must have to it's 554 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:56,680 Speaker 1: in their contract that they have to respond within twenty 555 00:30:56,720 --> 00:31:00,600 Speaker 1: four hours, no matter what day or time it is, 556 00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:05,960 Speaker 1: which is not very realistic. Plus, um, there's this like 557 00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:08,280 Speaker 1: thing where like if there's better help has like a 558 00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:10,960 Speaker 1: flood of people signing up. They're like, Okay, I know 559 00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:12,520 Speaker 1: that you have a ton of clients, but will you 560 00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:14,840 Speaker 1: take these new clients? Will pay you more for these 561 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:18,960 Speaker 1: new clients, which sort of incentivizes therapists to drop their 562 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:20,880 Speaker 1: old clients they're not getting paid enough for in the 563 00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:23,680 Speaker 1: first place, to then take the new clients. It's such 564 00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:27,440 Speaker 1: a stupid, fucked up system. I hate it. Can you tell? 565 00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:31,479 Speaker 1: It's so fucked up? And this is not how therapy 566 00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:33,120 Speaker 1: therapy is meant to be. This is not how it 567 00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:36,040 Speaker 1: should look to access mental health care. And you know, 568 00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:38,160 Speaker 1: in the wake of the astronaut World thing, it's like 569 00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:42,120 Speaker 1: it is a it's like an exploitation layer cake where 570 00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:45,160 Speaker 1: the clients, the potential clients are going to be exploited, 571 00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:48,120 Speaker 1: the therapists running the side are being exploited. Everybody is 572 00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:52,800 Speaker 1: being exploited except for the tech overlords who like are 573 00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:55,960 Speaker 1: possibly like making money from the people that are being 574 00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:59,320 Speaker 1: referred from this tragedy. Honestly, talking to you has helped 575 00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:01,640 Speaker 1: me make sense of why it made me so deeply, 576 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:06,160 Speaker 1: deeply angry and disgusted, like I had such a visceral reaction. Also, 577 00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:08,840 Speaker 1: just that use of the word partnership, like you know, 578 00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:12,920 Speaker 1: using this tragedy as a branding opportunity. I really found 579 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:17,960 Speaker 1: it deeply, deeply, like just disgusting. And I think talking 580 00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:21,600 Speaker 1: to you is really made it so clear that yeah, 581 00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:24,000 Speaker 1: that wasn't that wasn't. I was almost about to say, 582 00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:26,600 Speaker 1: like an irrational response, that was a rational response, because 583 00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:29,800 Speaker 1: it is really fucked up, but it is really disgusting. Yeah, 584 00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:33,080 Speaker 1: it's a very rational response to a very irrational thing 585 00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:37,280 Speaker 1: that's occurring. Totally. You've described all these numbers of like 586 00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:40,840 Speaker 1: caseloads of forty or fifty patients a week, which like 587 00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:43,240 Speaker 1: what a joke? How can you be providing like high 588 00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:46,000 Speaker 1: quality of care. I haven't heard you say anything about 589 00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:50,200 Speaker 1: like the evaluation process or uh, you know, any sort 590 00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:53,480 Speaker 1: of quality control. Do you know if they do um? 591 00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:56,320 Speaker 1: Like I just have to imagine that the quality of 592 00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:59,160 Speaker 1: care that patients are receiving is pretty low with a 593 00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:02,240 Speaker 1: caseload like that. But is that something that they look 594 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:05,120 Speaker 1: at or measure or talk about. Yeah, I don't know 595 00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:08,280 Speaker 1: it's a good question. I've never come across any sort 596 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:12,160 Speaker 1: of like data or survey about the quality of care UM, 597 00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:16,840 Speaker 1: So I don't know, And uh, I just feel I 598 00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:19,160 Speaker 1: feel bad for everybody involved. I feel really bad for 599 00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:21,360 Speaker 1: the therapist that are getting burnt out, that are kind 600 00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:24,360 Speaker 1: of like forced to work longer or more hours. Um. 601 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:28,360 Speaker 1: And this is I don't know. I don't know if 602 00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:32,400 Speaker 1: I can say this, So well whatever, UM, maybe we'll 603 00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:37,160 Speaker 1: head it out. But there's uh, how can you say 604 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:41,440 Speaker 1: this if you want to if you're somebody that's seeing 605 00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:44,520 Speaker 1: a better help therapist and you really like like your therapist, 606 00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:46,560 Speaker 1: because there's a ton of really great therapists on there, 607 00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:51,040 Speaker 1: and this conversation is upsetting or disturbing you, if you 608 00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:54,720 Speaker 1: wanted to ask your better help therapist, if they have 609 00:33:54,960 --> 00:34:01,240 Speaker 1: their own private practice and they are accepting glimps, then 610 00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:03,560 Speaker 1: that's something you can ask them, and you can talk 611 00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:06,760 Speaker 1: to them about the better health therapists obviously are not 612 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:09,440 Speaker 1: allowed to be like out of private practice. If you 613 00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:12,359 Speaker 1: want to see me there and you know, even pay 614 00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:14,920 Speaker 1: me if you like, pay that therapist the same amount 615 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:19,040 Speaker 1: that you're giving better help than what they're hourly rate 616 00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:22,359 Speaker 1: has doubled or tripled you know by that time. Um 617 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:25,880 Speaker 1: so so, because I get a lot of like feedback like, oh, 618 00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:28,200 Speaker 1: but I love my Better health therapists. Let's stick with 619 00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:31,200 Speaker 1: that better health therapist. I'm so happy for you. Also, 620 00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:33,800 Speaker 1: maybe you can see them in their private practice and 621 00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:35,640 Speaker 1: get out of life better Help if you want to. 622 00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:39,080 Speaker 1: I think I can say that. I'm pretty sure. Yeah, 623 00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:41,960 Speaker 1: I think that's good advice, because it sounds like you're 624 00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:44,080 Speaker 1: being so clear that you're not trying to say that 625 00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:48,040 Speaker 1: Better Help doesn't have great kick ass therapists on the platform, 626 00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:51,480 Speaker 1: but that the platform itself does not support these therapists 627 00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:54,160 Speaker 1: for giving the best quality of care that they can. 628 00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:56,759 Speaker 1: And so there might be other ways to access that 629 00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:59,680 Speaker 1: same therapist that you might love who's on Better Help 630 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:02,399 Speaker 1: in a way where they're not being sort of set 631 00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:04,719 Speaker 1: up to give you not as good, not as good 632 00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:09,719 Speaker 1: as care as you could be getting. Otherwise, m and 633 00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:13,160 Speaker 1: your therapists in their private practice probably won't sell all 634 00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:18,680 Speaker 1: your personal mental most likely they are not going to 635 00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:34,759 Speaker 1: do that. More. After a quick break, let's get right 636 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:37,600 Speaker 1: back into it now. I'm not the only one who 637 00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:40,440 Speaker 1: has a problem with Better Help partnership with Travis Scott 638 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:43,240 Speaker 1: in the wake of the Astro World tragedy. The response 639 00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:46,480 Speaker 1: has not been good, and Better Help is working overtime 640 00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:51,640 Speaker 1: to correct what they're calling misinformation about their platform. No, 641 00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:54,520 Speaker 1: it's worth noting that Better Help waited until the partnership 642 00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:58,880 Speaker 1: got negative reactions online to clarify pretty basic details about 643 00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:03,279 Speaker 1: the arrangement. Frankly, making patient protection seems like kind of 644 00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:06,239 Speaker 1: an afterthought. They released an f a Q where they 645 00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:08,480 Speaker 1: say that people who use the free month of Better 646 00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:11,799 Speaker 1: Help services will not be built after that month is up, 647 00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:14,719 Speaker 1: and they say that Travis Scott isn't making any money 648 00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:17,960 Speaker 1: from the partnership. Now, I've heard a lot of tech 649 00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:21,040 Speaker 1: company corporate double speaking my day, and I'd like the 650 00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:24,280 Speaker 1: company to clarify whether this also pertains to any business 651 00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:28,000 Speaker 1: or philanthropic entities Travis Scott might be affiliated with. They 652 00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:32,040 Speaker 1: also answer the frequently asked question, is information members enter 653 00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:35,960 Speaker 1: on Better Health ever sold to advertising platforms or third parties? 654 00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:40,320 Speaker 1: Now they answer this that emphatic no period. But that 655 00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:43,440 Speaker 1: can't be the whole story because on their own privacy policy, 656 00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:46,600 Speaker 1: in the section called Purposes for which Information is used, 657 00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:50,319 Speaker 1: they say your information may be used to quote personalized 658 00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:54,560 Speaker 1: website experience, including targeted offers and ads throughout our websites, 659 00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:58,440 Speaker 1: third party sites, and via email or text message. They 660 00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:01,719 Speaker 1: also say, quote, you may share your information with any 661 00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:05,960 Speaker 1: subsidiaries or parent companies within our corporate group. So who 662 00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:08,400 Speaker 1: are these other companies in your corporate group? And what 663 00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:12,000 Speaker 1: products are being advertised? It's better help using your personal 664 00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:15,919 Speaker 1: mental information to buy ads or sell ads. Why rely 665 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:19,480 Speaker 1: on such vague language when discussing something as important as 666 00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:23,239 Speaker 1: our health and privacy? I believe Better Health is intentionally 667 00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:26,320 Speaker 1: exploiting vague language and gray areas and their privacy policies 668 00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:29,960 Speaker 1: to mislead the public, which under normal circumstances is bad, 669 00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:33,720 Speaker 1: but it's especially egregious to do that after a tragedy. 670 00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:36,520 Speaker 1: Do you feel like the public it is owed a 671 00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:39,560 Speaker 1: little bit of transparency about this partnership. I feel like, 672 00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:43,280 Speaker 1: especially given that the folks who were at that festival 673 00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:45,319 Speaker 1: are are like a lot of them are young people. 674 00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:48,480 Speaker 1: I feel like it is a public like a public 675 00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:52,040 Speaker 1: good for Better Help and or Travis Scott to say, hey, 676 00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:55,080 Speaker 1: we're doing this therapy, this therapy partnership for folks who 677 00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:58,800 Speaker 1: were impacted by this tragedy. Here's who's making money on it? 678 00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:00,680 Speaker 1: Here's how your data is going to be used, you 679 00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:05,440 Speaker 1: know here like whether Travis got Better Help or both 680 00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:08,320 Speaker 1: are making some sort of like cut or kickback. Do 681 00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:10,920 Speaker 1: you feel like it's in the public interest for us 682 00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:16,200 Speaker 1: to have that information in a transparent way? Oh my god. Yes. 683 00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:19,480 Speaker 1: And like in my most recent TikTok video that's on 684 00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:23,600 Speaker 1: Twitter and everywhere else. Uh, I'm saying that, like what's 685 00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:27,120 Speaker 1: going on, Like, let's be clear here who's getting paid? 686 00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:32,239 Speaker 1: Uh do how do you continue care after that one month? 687 00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:34,360 Speaker 1: How much is it going to cost in order to 688 00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:38,319 Speaker 1: like continue Like there's it's just also murky. Uh So, Yeah, 689 00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:40,719 Speaker 1: I would love if there's more transparency around it. But 690 00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:43,279 Speaker 1: the way that Better Help operates is just like they're 691 00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:46,440 Speaker 1: very good at like making ship real vague um and 692 00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:49,279 Speaker 1: unfortunately whenever I push against them or anyone pushes up 693 00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:51,239 Speaker 1: against them, they just get even more vague and more 694 00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:54,320 Speaker 1: vague and get into that great area. So hopefully this 695 00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:58,319 Speaker 1: will like get more people to become concerned and ask 696 00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:00,239 Speaker 1: them to be more transparent about what they're doing and 697 00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:03,480 Speaker 1: the deal that's being set up. Travis Scott, Yeah, I 698 00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:06,680 Speaker 1: just feel like we're in this age where things that 699 00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:10,560 Speaker 1: technology that is meant to be like a wellness focused 700 00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:12,719 Speaker 1: thing or a mental health focused thing, we're in this 701 00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:16,680 Speaker 1: weird gray area where everything feels kind of scammy and 702 00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:19,239 Speaker 1: like not really regulated. And so we have all of 703 00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:23,480 Speaker 1: these apps that are sort of mental health ish or 704 00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:27,880 Speaker 1: like wellness ish or like medical care ish, and you 705 00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:30,800 Speaker 1: just have to act like are these regulated? Are they safe? 706 00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:33,880 Speaker 1: Am I actually getting good information from like a competent 707 00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:37,120 Speaker 1: trained medical health professional. I wonder like, do you feel 708 00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:39,080 Speaker 1: the same way that we're in this sort of wild 709 00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:43,040 Speaker 1: West where there are so many tech platforms offering us 710 00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:47,759 Speaker 1: wellness or you know, medical care, but in this very 711 00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:51,160 Speaker 1: gray area way, or they can sort of avoid having 712 00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:53,480 Speaker 1: to answer some of these questions about you know, the 713 00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:58,000 Speaker 1: quality of care that you're actually getting. Oh yeah, for sure. 714 00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:01,480 Speaker 1: And and they're so savvy, they're so slick, they know 715 00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:04,080 Speaker 1: exactly what they're doing. So you're just kind of like 716 00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:08,239 Speaker 1: give this like these ish services and it works well enough. 717 00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:13,040 Speaker 1: And also you know, uh, all these like podcasts or 718 00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:16,839 Speaker 1: MPR whoever, like it's such a good look for them, 719 00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:20,439 Speaker 1: like oh, therapy, you know, like it looks like there 720 00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:23,239 Speaker 1: it's so nice to quote to quote partner with them 721 00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:26,360 Speaker 1: because it's sort of like lifts their brand up, you know. 722 00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:29,320 Speaker 1: So it's just like this feel good, lovely thing, but 723 00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:32,280 Speaker 1: we don't know what's going on, like right behind the scenes. 724 00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:37,280 Speaker 1: And MPR, fuck you, MPR. They're like, I hate that MPR. 725 00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:41,160 Speaker 1: It's like running ads all over the place. I mean 726 00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:44,239 Speaker 1: it's all over Oregon with like NPR and OPB over 727 00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:46,880 Speaker 1: here where they're just I'm constantly hearing Better Health and 728 00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:50,759 Speaker 1: I'm emailing NPR and Oregon Public Pockets. I'm like letting 729 00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:52,359 Speaker 1: them know, like I want to be on your show. 730 00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:54,880 Speaker 1: This is not okay. If you understood the values of 731 00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:57,920 Speaker 1: this company, you would have a fucking aneurysm about it. 732 00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:02,080 Speaker 1: But like they're not on thing to me, and they're 733 00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:04,520 Speaker 1: not doing anything about it. So it's this weird like 734 00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:07,560 Speaker 1: halo effect that happens when they do partner with the 735 00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:10,080 Speaker 1: Better Help and like yeah, no, yeah, I don't know, 736 00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:13,319 Speaker 1: I'm agreeing with everything that you're saying. So yeah, yeah, 737 00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:15,200 Speaker 1: and it's I mean, you said a melibal and and 738 00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:20,040 Speaker 1: I know in the podcast based specifically that Better Help 739 00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:22,640 Speaker 1: has a it's like one of those ubiquitous brands that 740 00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:24,480 Speaker 1: you hear if you listen to podcast, you've definitely heard 741 00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:27,000 Speaker 1: a better help add and I have you know, friends 742 00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:29,480 Speaker 1: and colleagues who I'm sure do better help adds. And 743 00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:32,759 Speaker 1: I'm not trying to like call anybody out, but I 744 00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:35,440 Speaker 1: also feel like you have to take a little bit 745 00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:40,000 Speaker 1: of responsibility for the for like not so it's not 746 00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:42,600 Speaker 1: just a financial arrangement where they pay you and you 747 00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:45,800 Speaker 1: read the ad. But if you sound like you're endorsing 748 00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:49,359 Speaker 1: their their values and endorsing their practices, and if you're 749 00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:53,680 Speaker 1: using your like MPR voice to make this service seem 750 00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:56,600 Speaker 1: really good and progressive and like a good like a 751 00:41:56,680 --> 00:41:59,399 Speaker 1: good idea, like, I do think we have to step 752 00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:03,840 Speaker 1: back and some hard questions of ourselves about whether or 753 00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:07,239 Speaker 1: not we're allowing brands whose values do not align with 754 00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:10,960 Speaker 1: our own to be kind of brandwashed by our like 755 00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:14,680 Speaker 1: you know, slick podcaster voice or you know, or be 756 00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:17,880 Speaker 1: like the relationship that podcast listeners have with the with 757 00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:20,120 Speaker 1: their hosts right like I feel like it's like it 758 00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:26,000 Speaker 1: exploits the connection that listeners have with their favorite podcast 759 00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:29,120 Speaker 1: host to make these to make brands that are not 760 00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:33,760 Speaker 1: so good, uh seem like they're actually aligned with their values. 761 00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:38,680 Speaker 1: I guess you said it totally. I keep on saying it. 762 00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:41,520 Speaker 1: But like Better Health as one of the best marketing 763 00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:44,719 Speaker 1: teams I've ever seen there, so good, and they know 764 00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:48,080 Speaker 1: exactly when to turn off their comments on TikTok videos 765 00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:53,279 Speaker 1: because oh they're totally fucking off because like all the 766 00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:55,920 Speaker 1: TikTok ers are just like whoa, we don't like this. 767 00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:58,719 Speaker 1: This isn't like thank you Jeff for like being transparent 768 00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:01,680 Speaker 1: and like like blaming their privacy policy. We're doing a 769 00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:05,320 Speaker 1: spam all their TikTok videos and you can't they block 770 00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:09,719 Speaker 1: everybody like they know how to turn all that ship off. Um, 771 00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:13,760 Speaker 1: so yeah, I think podcasters and everyone with their NPR 772 00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:16,160 Speaker 1: voices like really need to think about And also, like 773 00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:20,800 Speaker 1: I guarantee all these podcasters are not getting their therapy 774 00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:24,400 Speaker 1: through Better Help, Like no way are they actually doing that. 775 00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:29,600 Speaker 1: Uh so yeah, you got me all round up. I agree. 776 00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:32,839 Speaker 1: It's interesting you mentioned the you know, the halo effect there, 777 00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:35,319 Speaker 1: and you know this moment that we're in where there 778 00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:41,440 Speaker 1: are all these potentially scammy ish mental health services and 779 00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:46,080 Speaker 1: it's it's like mental health it's only sort of recently 780 00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:49,480 Speaker 1: become a thing that we all are talking about and 781 00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:52,160 Speaker 1: acknowledging as like something that needs to be dealt with, 782 00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:56,080 Speaker 1: but it's still like a very private personal thing. Uh. 783 00:43:56,160 --> 00:44:02,480 Speaker 1: And I wonder that like contributes to the the viability 784 00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:05,719 Speaker 1: of scams like this. What you know, maybe it's a scam, 785 00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:08,719 Speaker 1: maybe it's not. But like when an actor is going 786 00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:14,560 Speaker 1: to participate in delivering mental health services but not respect 787 00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:17,440 Speaker 1: that like privacy piece of it and just you know, 788 00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:22,640 Speaker 1: completely violate those norms in pursuit of profit. Uh, it's 789 00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:26,319 Speaker 1: a pretty dangerous tech enabled place. One of the good 790 00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:29,640 Speaker 1: things is that it's sort of like breaking it's mental 791 00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:33,920 Speaker 1: health stigma is is like reducing Uh. So that's that's 792 00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:35,839 Speaker 1: also one of the things that's like a good thing 793 00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:41,520 Speaker 1: that's happening. But at what cost because there's like so 794 00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:45,400 Speaker 1: much information and data sharing and like ads being directed 795 00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:48,080 Speaker 1: more towards you because of this. So like yea for 796 00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:53,400 Speaker 1: accessibility for like these stigmatis, these stigmatization Um. But like 797 00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:58,080 Speaker 1: this is like profiting these huge tech companies so much 798 00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:01,800 Speaker 1: and it's so upsetting and it's so disturbing and we 799 00:45:01,880 --> 00:45:06,040 Speaker 1: need to talk even more about it. M m hm. Well, 800 00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:09,359 Speaker 1: I mean so we we we don't funk with better health, 801 00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:12,680 Speaker 1: but as we know, like it can be so hard 802 00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:15,359 Speaker 1: to get access to with therapists, So like, what are 803 00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:19,000 Speaker 1: some alternatives to services like better health that might be 804 00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:22,799 Speaker 1: a little less scammy, uh and exploited. If folks out 805 00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:25,800 Speaker 1: there want to access mental health services but don't know 806 00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:29,440 Speaker 1: where to start. Um. I mean I'm biased, but I 807 00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:34,280 Speaker 1: love therapy dem dot com. Uh start there. There's another 808 00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:38,879 Speaker 1: therapist directory that I am in love with, Inclusive Therapists 809 00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:43,160 Speaker 1: dot com um the same sort of vibe and mission 810 00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:47,440 Speaker 1: and values of therapy dem dot com um. The thing 811 00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:50,120 Speaker 1: is is, like you kind of have to be um 812 00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:54,880 Speaker 1: okay or understand accepting of the fact that, like this 813 00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:57,800 Speaker 1: is going to be a journey for you. Finding a 814 00:45:57,960 --> 00:46:00,560 Speaker 1: therapist is going to take some time. And the reason 815 00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:02,399 Speaker 1: it's going to take times because you need to find 816 00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:05,080 Speaker 1: somebody who's a really good match and who can competently 817 00:46:05,719 --> 00:46:08,879 Speaker 1: treat you. So you're gonna have to like interview three, 818 00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:12,640 Speaker 1: four or five ten therapists possibly to like find somebody 819 00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:14,960 Speaker 1: who's a good match for you. It's grueling and it 820 00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:17,680 Speaker 1: sucks and I don't like it. But starting therapy don 821 00:46:17,719 --> 00:46:20,640 Speaker 1: dot com Inclusive therapist dot com even just like googling 822 00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:23,960 Speaker 1: somebody you know, like trying or going to psychology today, 823 00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:27,200 Speaker 1: um dot com to like go through their therapist directory, 824 00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:31,680 Speaker 1: buying a therapist at some private practice. Uh, you'll like 825 00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:37,280 Speaker 1: the the quality of care is through the roof compared 826 00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:40,279 Speaker 1: to the quality of care that you get from better help, 827 00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:43,719 Speaker 1: just because the way the better help is like set up. Um, 828 00:46:44,719 --> 00:46:49,399 Speaker 1: so have some patience, UM, really educate yourself. Ask all 829 00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:51,920 Speaker 1: of the questions that you want, like how can you 830 00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:54,919 Speaker 1: complemential train competently? Train me? What's your background? But also 831 00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:58,160 Speaker 1: like if you want, you can be like are you married? 832 00:46:58,320 --> 00:47:01,319 Speaker 1: Do you have kids? Are you from this city? Where 833 00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:05,600 Speaker 1: do you hang out? Um? What what do you think about? 834 00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:09,040 Speaker 1: Like who's your favorite sports team? Do you garden? Whatever 835 00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:12,040 Speaker 1: the funk you want? Like? Are you like ask all 836 00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:14,800 Speaker 1: the questions. Therapists don't have to answer all these questions, 837 00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:16,960 Speaker 1: but I want you to ask all the questions that 838 00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:20,719 Speaker 1: will make you feel more comfortable UM talking to that therapist. 839 00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:22,839 Speaker 1: Ask them like do you diagnose? What do you think 840 00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:26,399 Speaker 1: my diagnosis might be? What is treatment gonna look like? Um? 841 00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:30,800 Speaker 1: Are you cool? Whatever you need to do? Uh? So 842 00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:34,680 Speaker 1: you need to start therapy done dot com wherever the 843 00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:36,680 Speaker 1: hell you want to start and then understand that you 844 00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:38,880 Speaker 1: have to like go on a journey. Honestly, if it 845 00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:41,520 Speaker 1: was not for your TikTok's I would not have known 846 00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:44,799 Speaker 1: any of this. Like, I don't think there's a lot 847 00:47:44,880 --> 00:47:49,160 Speaker 1: of resources out there to help people understand companies or 848 00:47:49,239 --> 00:47:51,480 Speaker 1: platforms life, better health. And so I'm so I'm so 849 00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:53,680 Speaker 1: glad that you're making the content that you are because 850 00:47:53,680 --> 00:47:57,040 Speaker 1: I think that you're helping people take ownership over there, 851 00:47:57,560 --> 00:48:00,280 Speaker 1: or you're empowering people to advocate for them so eloms 852 00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:03,600 Speaker 1: and take ownership over how they access these services. And 853 00:48:03,680 --> 00:48:06,400 Speaker 1: so I'm so grateful for you. Uh where can folks 854 00:48:06,480 --> 00:48:09,640 Speaker 1: keep up with you? Yeah, so you can look for 855 00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:15,520 Speaker 1: search for therapy then on TikTok and Twitter and Instagram. UM. 856 00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:20,480 Speaker 1: I am also I produce a podcast called Swoon Love 857 00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:24,080 Speaker 1: Lessons with Julian Gina. So Julian and Gina are UM 858 00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:28,000 Speaker 1: sex therapists and experts, and every now and then I'll 859 00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:31,440 Speaker 1: hop on and being on a podcast episode with them. UM, 860 00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:35,480 Speaker 1: So you can find me. They're talking like giving love advice. 861 00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:40,880 Speaker 1: I'm an amazing and giving love advice. Uh so so 862 00:48:41,160 --> 00:48:43,239 Speaker 1: that's where you can find me, UM and you can 863 00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:46,200 Speaker 1: personally email me at Hello at therapyv dot com if 864 00:48:46,239 --> 00:48:49,319 Speaker 1: you have any questions. The astral World disaster has turned 865 00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:52,320 Speaker 1: into a hotbed of conspiracy theories. In our next episode, 866 00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:55,600 Speaker 1: we'll hear from researcher Abbey Richards about why this tragedy 867 00:48:55,680 --> 00:48:59,240 Speaker 1: has resulted in satanic panic on social media platforms like TikTok. 868 00:49:04,440 --> 00:49:06,400 Speaker 1: Got a story about an interesting thing in tech, or 869 00:49:06,520 --> 00:49:08,360 Speaker 1: just want to say hi, You can reach us at 870 00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:10,640 Speaker 1: hello at tang godi dot com. You can also find 871 00:49:10,680 --> 00:49:13,400 Speaker 1: transcripts for today's episode at tang godi dot com. There 872 00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:15,000 Speaker 1: Are No Girls on the Internet was created by me 873 00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:17,960 Speaker 1: Bridget Tod. It's a production of iHeart Radio and Unboss 874 00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:21,600 Speaker 1: creative Jonathan Strickland as our executive producer. Terry Harrison is 875 00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:25,200 Speaker 1: our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer. 876 00:49:25,520 --> 00:49:28,200 Speaker 1: I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If you want to help 877 00:49:28,280 --> 00:49:31,200 Speaker 1: us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. For 878 00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:33,480 Speaker 1: more podcasts from I heart Radio, check out the iHeart 879 00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:36,040 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts.