1 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:20,599 Speaker 1: Bodybacks with Joseph Scott Morgan. Early in the morning on 2 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:26,240 Speaker 1: October the nineteenth, twenty nineteen, in a little town in Idaho, 3 00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:32,680 Speaker 1: a lady who was in her late forties was found deceased, 4 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:37,320 Speaker 1: and for whatever reason still remains a mystery to this day, 5 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:41,559 Speaker 1: the decision was made for an autopsy not to be performed. 6 00:00:42,520 --> 00:00:46,760 Speaker 1: That lady's name is Tammy Day Belle, and her case 7 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:52,800 Speaker 1: is critical and a much broader investigation that's going on. 8 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:55,840 Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, the absence of an autopsy 9 00:00:55,880 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 1: in that case could have severe repercussions moving forward. Today 10 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:08,680 Speaker 1: we're going to be discussing autopsies, what they are, who 11 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:12,640 Speaker 1: makes the determination as to when they occur, And I'm 12 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 1: going to tell you a little bit about my background 13 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:20,800 Speaker 1: with autopsis. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybags. 14 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:28,560 Speaker 1: I've been involved in death investigation for the majority of 15 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 1: my adult life, either working in the morgue, out of 16 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:36,080 Speaker 1: the field as an investigator or now as an academic 17 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 1: talking about medical legal death investigation every single day that 18 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:45,760 Speaker 1: I walk into school. And my friend Jackie Howard, who 19 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:48,720 Speaker 1: is the executive producer of Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. 20 00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 1: Jackie We've talked about autopsies a lot, haven't we we have, Joe, 21 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 1: And the more that we talk about it, the more 22 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 1: that I want to know. As we'd laid out our 23 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 1: plans for what we wanted to discuss today, the questions 24 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:04,880 Speaker 1: just started pouring. So I figure the best place to 25 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 1: start is with a simple question, what is an autopsy? 26 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 1: An autopsy is essentially, there's another way to put this, 27 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:19,400 Speaker 1: it's essentially a post mortem examination. And that's in a 28 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:25,240 Speaker 1: very very broad sense. But when you hear the term autopsy, 29 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:29,440 Speaker 1: it conjures up images of an old, dilapidated morgue. You've 30 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 1: got more personnel running about, there's coolers where bodies are 31 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:37,400 Speaker 1: stored in generally a stainless steel table, and that's not 32 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:42,120 Speaker 1: too far off the mark. But we have to understand 33 00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:48,200 Speaker 1: that when we conduct an autopsy, we are trying to 34 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:52,600 Speaker 1: determine what exactly happened, what brought about the death of 35 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:57,600 Speaker 1: an individual that was not necessarily otherwise explained. And so 36 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 1: when you begin to go down this in the autopsy suite, 37 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:06,519 Speaker 1: you know some people, interestingly enough, historically they've they've referred 38 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:10,360 Speaker 1: to in the historic record as doctors that do autopsies. 39 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:13,639 Speaker 1: They will refer to them as surgical pathology, and surgical 40 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 1: pathology now means like you've got a doctor that goes 41 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:18,680 Speaker 1: up to surgery that's a pathologist and they look at 42 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:22,400 Speaker 1: frozen sections of tumors that have been removed from people. 43 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:24,480 Speaker 1: They'll look at them instantaneously and try to give you 44 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:27,960 Speaker 1: a diagnosis. But there is a part to surgical pathology 45 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:33,280 Speaker 1: that goes along with autopsy examinations where a pathologists will 46 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:38,360 Speaker 1: engage in literally the dissection or pro section of human 47 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:42,200 Speaker 1: remains to try to determine what exactly brought about to death. 48 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:47,920 Speaker 1: Because it absent those clinical diagnoses that you arrive at 49 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:52,840 Speaker 1: by virtue of doing these examinations, you don't actually have 50 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:58,880 Speaker 1: a final or a fatal diagnosis. The biggest questions that 51 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 1: families have, that communities have is absolutely what happened, How 52 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:08,360 Speaker 1: did they die, When did they die, What was the 53 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:11,040 Speaker 1: mechanism that brought about their death, and hopefully through an 54 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:14,000 Speaker 1: autopsy you can make that determination. One of the things 55 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:16,560 Speaker 1: that you said just then, Joe, really caught my attention, 56 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 1: and it was having to do with when an autopsy 57 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:23,320 Speaker 1: has done and when is it not done. I find 58 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:26,240 Speaker 1: it really interesting in the Tammy day Bell case. As 59 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:31,839 Speaker 1: you mentioned that an autopsy was not initially done, who 60 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:35,840 Speaker 1: determines that and why would you not? I mean, I know, 61 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 1: in certain especially in the elderly, when it's thought to 62 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:43,359 Speaker 1: be natural causes, they don't necessarily do an autopsy to 63 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:46,559 Speaker 1: try to figure out why this person died. So who 64 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:50,120 Speaker 1: makes that determination and why? Well, ultimately it's going to 65 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:53,840 Speaker 1: be the lead medical legal authority in a jurisdiction. And 66 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 1: you got to back up and understand that in the 67 00:04:56,400 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 1: United States in particular, we have two separate types of systems. Here. 68 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:06,080 Speaker 1: You have corner systems, which are elected officials and they're 69 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 1: not necessarily always physicians. As a matter of fact, most 70 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 1: of the the time they're not physicians. People will be surprised 71 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:15,040 Speaker 1: to hear that. And then you have medical examiner systems, 72 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:20,600 Speaker 1: which are essentially run by physicians who many times are 73 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 1: in fact forensic mythologists. So it really varies from state 74 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:29,599 Speaker 1: to state who's going to make the determination. Most of 75 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:32,880 Speaker 1: the time, the state statute, that is, the state law 76 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:38,240 Speaker 1: will dictate who has the authority to make a decision 77 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:41,280 Speaker 1: about an autopsy. And contrary to popular belief, I hear 78 00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:44,520 Speaker 1: and famously with the Tammy day Belle case, it was 79 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:48,240 Speaker 1: stated that it was the family's wishes not to have 80 00:05:48,279 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 1: an autopsy performed in her case and be kind of 81 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 1: sitting there scratching her head and saying, I got a 82 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:56,360 Speaker 1: healthy young woman here that's out and running every day 83 00:05:56,400 --> 00:05:59,600 Speaker 1: and seems vibrant and healthy. Why in the world would 84 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:04,360 Speaker 1: you not one an autopsy? And there's a many layers 85 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:08,480 Speaker 1: to that. Families don't want to think about their family 86 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:11,159 Speaker 1: members undergoing this procedure. They don't want to think about 87 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:13,840 Speaker 1: everything that's involved with it. They just want to go 88 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:18,680 Speaker 1: to the funeral home with the remains. But unfortunately, if 89 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:22,159 Speaker 1: it's not done, and it's not done in a timely fashion, 90 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:25,000 Speaker 1: one or two things is going to happen. Either you'll 91 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 1: never have answers to those questions, or in Tammy Davell's case, 92 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 1: she had been in balm transport to another state and 93 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:36,000 Speaker 1: had been buried. Even after her body is exhumed, in 94 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:39,159 Speaker 1: that case, any kind of findings that there may have 95 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:42,080 Speaker 1: been originally are going to be so compromised by that 96 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 1: time it's really going to be difficult to make heads 97 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:49,480 Speaker 1: or tails. So most of the time it will be 98 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:53,440 Speaker 1: depended upon what the medical legal authority again back to 99 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 1: medical examin or corner views as the best interest at 100 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:01,400 Speaker 1: that point in time to come up with an answer, 101 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:05,880 Speaker 1: scientific valid answer to try to determine what brought about 102 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:11,200 Speaker 1: this person's sudden death. And it is not dependent upon 103 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:16,880 Speaker 1: what the family wants. Okay, now that sounds cruel, but 104 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:20,360 Speaker 1: you know most of the time families are in no 105 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:23,400 Speaker 1: position to make that decision. And also they're a greater 106 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:25,920 Speaker 1: interest at work here. And we can go down the list. 107 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 1: You got a homicide, this happened. Family is not going 108 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:32,280 Speaker 1: to have any weight given to their protest about an 109 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:35,120 Speaker 1: autopsy not being performed in that case because it's obvious. 110 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:36,800 Speaker 1: But you have to document it if you're going to 111 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:39,200 Speaker 1: prosecute a case. And then you have these kind of 112 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:42,800 Speaker 1: mysterious circumstances where you don't have any answers. And Joe, 113 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 1: let me ask you something here in relating to what 114 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:49,400 Speaker 1: you're talking about. Can an autopsy be done even though 115 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 1: the family doesn't want it to be? I mean, like 116 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 1: in this case, the family said that an autopsy was 117 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 1: not necessary here, it could the corner or the medical 118 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 1: personnel have said, then, no, we're doing an autopsy anyway. 119 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:04,680 Speaker 1: They have authority under state law to do that. They 120 00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 1: can say, well, I respect what you're saying, I understand 121 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:10,560 Speaker 1: why you might not want one done, but there's bigger 122 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:14,280 Speaker 1: interest at work here. We have to make a determination 123 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:17,120 Speaker 1: about manner and cause of death here and find out 124 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 1: what exactly happened, and there's reasons why you do that. 125 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 1: First off, it's a mystery that you have to have 126 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:26,480 Speaker 1: an answer for the corner or the medical examiner is 127 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:28,120 Speaker 1: going to be the one that actually, you know, you 128 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:30,800 Speaker 1: hear the term of death certificate. People don't think about 129 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:34,559 Speaker 1: that that means that death is being certified. Okay, Well, 130 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:39,040 Speaker 1: if you don't have a reason that is put forth 131 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:42,160 Speaker 1: as a result of a pathology finding where you're looking 132 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:45,640 Speaker 1: for disease or some kind of mechanism of death, what 133 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:47,640 Speaker 1: are you going to list as a cause of death 134 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:53,439 Speaker 1: gunshot wound or MIoD cardial infarction or lung cancer, leukemia, 135 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:55,800 Speaker 1: or whatever it is the person has going on in 136 00:08:55,880 --> 00:08:59,360 Speaker 1: dwelling within their body or some kind of external event 137 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:01,720 Speaker 1: that occurred to bring about their death. If you don't 138 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:06,080 Speaker 1: go in and actually examine that and make a note 139 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:10,120 Speaker 1: of that and make an absolute diagnosis, how are you 140 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:11,400 Speaker 1: going to do that. How are you going to list 141 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:13,240 Speaker 1: the cause of death? I mean, you can't just like 142 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 1: it doesn't just come to you psychically out of the air. 143 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:20,360 Speaker 1: You have to see it. It's a scientific procedure, it's 144 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:22,960 Speaker 1: a study. And then how are you going to list 145 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 1: the manner of death? We've only got five that choose 146 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:32,360 Speaker 1: from natural, suicide, homicide, unexplained, undetermined. You've got all of 147 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:35,000 Speaker 1: those that you have to choose from as well. So 148 00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:38,199 Speaker 1: if you have nothing to put on the death certificate, 149 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 1: you're gonna have a death certificate. It's going to remain 150 00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 1: probably incomplete for a protracted period of time because you're 151 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:49,480 Speaker 1: asking for the official to put down an official diagnosis 152 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 1: and an official manner of death that they don't have 153 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 1: any insight into. And of course the autopsy itself is 154 00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:59,560 Speaker 1: the best way to do that. Gloria sadder Field having 155 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:03,720 Speaker 1: to do the case of the Murdles over in South Carolina, 156 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 1: Gloria Sadderfield, the murds housekeeper, reportedly tripped over dogs going 157 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:15,760 Speaker 1: down the stairs outside the home the brick stairway, Yet 158 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:18,800 Speaker 1: her cause of death, if I'm not mistaken, was listed 159 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:21,440 Speaker 1: as natural causes. Yeah, it is super bizarre, you know, 160 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:23,960 Speaker 1: particularly with the case of Glorious Sadderfield. You've got a 161 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 1: woman that had obviously sustained some type of very specific 162 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:31,079 Speaker 1: head trauma that brought her to the hospital. And one 163 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:33,720 Speaker 1: of the ways I teach my students, there's that old 164 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 1: point that we talk about, and I don't know, folks, 165 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 1: I'm not going to recite the whole thing. I'll spare 166 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:41,640 Speaker 1: spare the audience that the old the old point that goes, 167 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:44,160 Speaker 1: you know, for the one of a nail, the shoe 168 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 1: was lost. For the one of the shoe, a horse 169 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:48,920 Speaker 1: was lost. For the one of a horse, a rider 170 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:51,280 Speaker 1: was lost, a message was lost, and so forth and 171 00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:53,840 Speaker 1: so on. So you have a genesis in the beginning 172 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:58,559 Speaker 1: as to how all of these dominoes begin to fall. 173 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:02,920 Speaker 1: And in Sadderfield's case, well, what brought her to the hospital. 174 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:06,240 Speaker 1: Was it that she had a cardiac event? Was that 175 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:11,880 Speaker 1: she had a stroke, Was that she got struck by lightning? Well, 176 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:17,079 Speaker 1: none of the above. She fell and sustained head trauma. 177 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:20,800 Speaker 1: But yet they're listing this whole event as a natural event. 178 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:25,400 Speaker 1: And here's what's crazy about that case is that a 179 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:30,160 Speaker 1: private attending physician signed her death certificate. And this case 180 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:35,920 Speaker 1: was never reported to the corner. Listen, if a person 181 00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:38,679 Speaker 1: rolls into the hospital as a result of a traumatic 182 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 1: event and they don't exit that hospital and they die 183 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:44,480 Speaker 1: inside the walls, and I don't care how long they've 184 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 1: been in the hospital. If they come in as a 185 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:50,040 Speaker 1: result of trauma and that trauma's directly related to their death, 186 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:53,679 Speaker 1: that is a reportable case. And it's my understanding the 187 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:57,320 Speaker 1: case was never even reported to the coroner. And that's 188 00:11:57,320 --> 00:12:00,400 Speaker 1: a problem because the corner is not aware, they can't 189 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:03,480 Speaker 1: make a decision about whether or not an autopsy should 190 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:05,319 Speaker 1: be performed. Or she had been in for a while, 191 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:09,079 Speaker 1: so they're going to request the records and examine the records, 192 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 1: all of the imaging, everything that comes along with that, 193 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:14,640 Speaker 1: and they'll sign the death certificate. But you know, a 194 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:18,560 Speaker 1: private physician can't list a traumatic cause of death, and 195 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:21,679 Speaker 1: they can't qualify a traumatic cause of death. So a 196 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:25,640 Speaker 1: private physician can't say blunt force trauma and the manner 197 00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:28,840 Speaker 1: of death is homicide or accident. That'll get rejected most 198 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 1: of the time. That's going to be rejected by the 199 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:33,880 Speaker 1: state Health department or whoever handles all of the paperwork, 200 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:37,240 Speaker 1: the public health agency that handles a paperwork for the state, 201 00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:40,000 Speaker 1: and that's why it always goes back to the corner. 202 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:42,680 Speaker 1: But if the corner is not aware of it, the 203 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:45,080 Speaker 1: death has not been reported, it's going to be a 204 00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 1: problem going forward. So then the question begs to be 205 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:54,680 Speaker 1: answered once a decision is made to do an autopsy, 206 00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:57,120 Speaker 1: is what kind of an autopsy is there going to be? 207 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:01,959 Speaker 1: If it's an autopsy, is it always the same you 208 00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:06,320 Speaker 1: start with a through Z or are there truly different 209 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:10,240 Speaker 1: kinds of autopsies? There are different degrees to autopsies. When 210 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 1: you bring a body into a morgue, for instance, you 211 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:16,840 Speaker 1: can do what's called an external examination, which means that 212 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:21,679 Speaker 1: the body will be completely photographed as is upon arrival. 213 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 1: That means with clothing on. Okay, some places actually do 214 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 1: X rays just so that they have them. You disrobe 215 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:35,600 Speaker 1: the body, the pathologist and their assistant do a complete 216 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:39,680 Speaker 1: and total examination of the body unclothed. Then in addition 217 00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:43,079 Speaker 1: to that, you're going to draw samples for toxicology, and 218 00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:46,000 Speaker 1: what these are going to be is you'll draw what's 219 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 1: referred to as hard blood. Most of the time you're 220 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:49,920 Speaker 1: going to try to end this as externally and it's 221 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:52,679 Speaker 1: drawn from the A order. So folks will find their 222 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:56,640 Speaker 1: collar bone on the left hand side and go down 223 00:13:56,880 --> 00:14:00,239 Speaker 1: the intercostal spaces, which is kind of the muscle inween 224 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:03,600 Speaker 1: each rib group, and go down about the third intercostal 225 00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:07,000 Speaker 1: space in the ribs on the front side, okay, adjacent 226 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:10,280 Speaker 1: to the sternum. There will be a needle inserted there 227 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:12,200 Speaker 1: and it will go into the A order, which is 228 00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:15,240 Speaker 1: the big vessel that comes off the curved vessel that 229 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:17,720 Speaker 1: comes off of the top of the heart. And it 230 00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:19,920 Speaker 1: takes practice to learn how to do this, but over 231 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:22,960 Speaker 1: a period of time's we do it by touch. It's 232 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:25,160 Speaker 1: something that we can do. And then you draw blood 233 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:28,400 Speaker 1: out of that area, and then we take another needle 234 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:31,680 Speaker 1: and we draw externally. We will draw urine, and finally 235 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:34,880 Speaker 1: we'll draw vitreous fluid which comes from the eye, and 236 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 1: all of those fluids are submitted for toxicology and we'll 237 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 1: run the entire panel. But to the broader question here, 238 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:46,720 Speaker 1: that's the first kind of stop along the continuum where 239 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:51,320 Speaker 1: we're doing an external examination and it doesn't rise to 240 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:53,800 Speaker 1: the same level as a full autopsy or even a 241 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 1: partial autopsy, which I'm not a fan of, but you 242 00:14:57,280 --> 00:15:00,360 Speaker 1: just do the external examination. You draw the fluids, and 243 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:03,080 Speaker 1: then those are submitted generally to either a local hospital 244 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:05,960 Speaker 1: or state crime lab, and you run a drug panel, 245 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:08,960 Speaker 1: and you already have a suspicion. If you're going to 246 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:11,480 Speaker 1: do an external examination, you already have a suspicion that 247 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:13,800 Speaker 1: you might know what cause of death is, but you 248 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 1: just want to rule out everything else, any kind of 249 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:19,040 Speaker 1: external trauma. Maybe the person died and they weren't found 250 00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:21,960 Speaker 1: for a while, and then you'll move forward. Maybe you 251 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:24,440 Speaker 1: can even get the private physician. If it's a natural death, 252 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 1: which if you're not doing an autopsy, it's probably a 253 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:30,080 Speaker 1: natural death. The private physician can sign the death certificate 254 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:33,080 Speaker 1: and they'll list a specific cause of death. Again, back 255 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 1: to acute mild cardial infarction, which is essentially a fancy 256 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:39,760 Speaker 1: way of saying a heart attack, and that is a 257 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:43,360 Speaker 1: natural classified as a natural death. Now you'll have events 258 00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:47,000 Speaker 1: that pathologists will make a decision or the enemy of 259 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:48,680 Speaker 1: the corner will make a decision. We're only going to 260 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 1: a partial autopsy. And I have a problem with this 261 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 1: because it's like you've got one foot in the water 262 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:57,400 Speaker 1: and one foot in the boat. If you're going to 263 00:15:57,520 --> 00:16:00,520 Speaker 1: do it, commit to it, do it. And they're even 264 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:05,240 Speaker 1: cases like if you have suicides, for instance, subject has 265 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:08,240 Speaker 1: sustained a gunshot one of the head, they might only 266 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:12,640 Speaker 1: in certain jurisdictions they might actually only only open the head, 267 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:16,000 Speaker 1: for instance, and retrieve a projectile, and then they don't 268 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:18,880 Speaker 1: touch the rest of the body. And that's a problem. 269 00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:23,160 Speaker 1: It can be a problem everybody needs to understand. Foundationally, 270 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:27,560 Speaker 1: in the medical legal world, our supposition is this, and 271 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:31,560 Speaker 1: everything that we do we work under this big banner 272 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:35,880 Speaker 1: that says every death, some deaths, not a few deaths. 273 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 1: We from jump Street. We go forward with this idea 274 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 1: that every death is in fact a homicide until we 275 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:49,240 Speaker 1: can prove otherwise. Okay, Because if you start out at 276 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:53,440 Speaker 1: that really intense high level of trying to make a 277 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:57,000 Speaker 1: determination about homicide, as you kind of make your way 278 00:16:57,080 --> 00:17:00,880 Speaker 1: through these checklists that we have, you get to the 279 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:03,880 Speaker 1: next level maybe accent or suicide, and then you get 280 00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:07,040 Speaker 1: to maybe natural and you've kind of checked the boxes 281 00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:09,400 Speaker 1: along the way. You have to be able to effectively 282 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:11,440 Speaker 1: rule all these things out. So back to this idea 283 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:14,000 Speaker 1: of a partial autopsy. If you're only going to do 284 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:17,199 Speaker 1: a partial autopsy, why why not go ahead and do 285 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:20,160 Speaker 1: the entire autopsy. In that way, it's complete. It's only 286 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:22,359 Speaker 1: going to take you maybe another forty five minutes to 287 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:26,160 Speaker 1: an hour to get everything done, and it can lead 288 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:28,720 Speaker 1: to problems down the road. You'll have people saying, well, 289 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 1: they had this problem or they had that problem, why 290 00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:33,720 Speaker 1: didn't you look at this? And while you have the 291 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:36,240 Speaker 1: body there in front of you, you go ahead and 292 00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:57,480 Speaker 1: you do the whole thing. I engage in these discussions 293 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:00,760 Speaker 1: many times with my students at Jackson's a pre teach 294 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:03,720 Speaker 1: and they'll say, how'd you know, Professor Morgan, how did 295 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:05,840 Speaker 1: you get into this environment, how'd you start doing this? 296 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:07,720 Speaker 1: How did you start working in the more or why 297 00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:10,000 Speaker 1: did you choose to be in the Morgan, Let me 298 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:14,280 Speaker 1: tell you something and hear me right. The best classroom 299 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 1: that I've ever been in, and I've paid a lot 300 00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:20,119 Speaker 1: of money for tuition over the years, the best classroom 301 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:23,200 Speaker 1: that I was ever in that I was actually paid 302 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:25,200 Speaker 1: to be in as opposed to having to pay tuition 303 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:29,560 Speaker 1: for was an autopsy room. I learned more about death 304 00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:33,400 Speaker 1: investigation than I ever did out on a scene with 305 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 1: a deceased person or sitting around having coffee with an 306 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:40,359 Speaker 1: old investigator and they're telling war stories. I've learned more 307 00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:44,040 Speaker 1: in the autopsy suite, actually getting my hand study and 308 00:18:44,119 --> 00:18:47,880 Speaker 1: being there to actually see these things before me demonstrated, 309 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:50,239 Speaker 1: to see the mechanisms that are involved, to see all 310 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:54,520 Speaker 1: of the underlying disease. You can't have a better environment 311 00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:57,480 Speaker 1: in which to learn in Okay, then lay this out 312 00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:02,560 Speaker 1: for me, Joe, you were talking for about a full autopsy. 313 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:08,640 Speaker 1: Explain that to me. And how long does an autopsies 314 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:11,960 Speaker 1: take you Remember how I'd mentioned we talked about an 315 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:17,120 Speaker 1: external examination. Well, every autopsy starts off with an external examination. Now, 316 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:19,840 Speaker 1: in some cases where you have what you suspect is 317 00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 1: natural disease, it might begin an end with that and 318 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:26,600 Speaker 1: then the body will be released. However, a full autopsy 319 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:29,480 Speaker 1: will in fact start with an external examination, and you 320 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:33,919 Speaker 1: go from stem to stern relative to the overall status 321 00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:36,720 Speaker 1: of the body. All of this is made nota throughout 322 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:40,040 Speaker 1: the examination. I mean measurements. We go into great detail 323 00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:42,280 Speaker 1: relative to measurements, and a lot of this is actually 324 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:46,359 Speaker 1: dictated by particularly if you've got traumatic cases, say, for instance, 325 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:49,240 Speaker 1: like with Ellen Greenberg where she was stabbed. Some people 326 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:51,240 Speaker 1: have said twenty times, some people have said more than 327 00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:54,920 Speaker 1: twenty times. You've got so much trauma there that each 328 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:59,400 Speaker 1: individual insult that she has externally has to be measured 329 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:02,680 Speaker 1: in orient it anatomically. Say, for instance, if someone has 330 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:05,400 Speaker 1: been let's just say somebody has been shot to the 331 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:08,520 Speaker 1: right of their sternum, which is the hard plate of 332 00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:11,320 Speaker 1: the breastbone on the anterior chest. They've been shot to 333 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:15,520 Speaker 1: the right. Well, just for that gunshot wound alone, you 334 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:18,520 Speaker 1: would have to get a measurement first off of the 335 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:22,919 Speaker 1: overall circumference of the wound itself, and then you have 336 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:25,840 Speaker 1: to measure Some people do from two points, some people 337 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:28,600 Speaker 1: do from three, like from if it's on the right 338 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:31,920 Speaker 1: side of the sternom, you would do a measurement from 339 00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:34,520 Speaker 1: the center of the wound to the apex of the 340 00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:36,560 Speaker 1: right shoulder, and then maybe from the center the wound 341 00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:38,400 Speaker 1: to the apex of the left shoulder, and then from 342 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:39,920 Speaker 1: the center of the wound to the top of the head. 343 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:42,720 Speaker 1: That takes time. And then if you have somebody to 344 00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:47,359 Speaker 1: stabbed multiple times, shot multiple times, each one of those 345 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:51,639 Speaker 1: injuries dictates the speed at which you can do is 346 00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:54,120 Speaker 1: because you want to do a thorough examination. And I've 347 00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:56,480 Speaker 1: had people that have been stabbed well in excess of 348 00:20:56,800 --> 00:20:59,800 Speaker 1: one hundred times, and you can just imagine the external examination, 349 00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:04,639 Speaker 1: I'll loan it is a herculean task, to say the least, 350 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:07,200 Speaker 1: and then you might have three or four other autopsies 351 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:09,040 Speaker 1: that you're going to have to do that day. But 352 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:13,280 Speaker 1: once you get done with the external examination, then the 353 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 1: body is of course, you're on a stainless steel autopsy table, 354 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:18,600 Speaker 1: and these are either fixed on the floor or their 355 00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:21,280 Speaker 1: own rollers where and they're kind of set at a 356 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:24,800 Speaker 1: pitch because you're going to lose fluid and the fluid 357 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:28,240 Speaker 1: will run down the stainless steel table either into a 358 00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:31,320 Speaker 1: pre established drain that you have on a fixed table 359 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:33,880 Speaker 1: or into this big kind of catch off sink. It's 360 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:36,679 Speaker 1: a working station that you have, and all of that 361 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:40,200 Speaker 1: fluid is washed away and you'll have multiple autopsy stations. 362 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:42,800 Speaker 1: You go to one of these really big shops in 363 00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:46,679 Speaker 1: large metropolitan areas and they might have the ability to 364 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:49,960 Speaker 1: have five autopsies, say for instance, going on at one time, 365 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:54,680 Speaker 1: and you might have multiple physicians, multiple autopsy assistance photographers, 366 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:58,320 Speaker 1: everybody doing these examinations all at one time. Particularly if 367 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:00,760 Speaker 1: you're talking about like a mass casual event or if 368 00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:03,879 Speaker 1: it's a really really busy day. And so after the 369 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:08,920 Speaker 1: external examination is done, essentially the chest and the abdomen 370 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:12,920 Speaker 1: are opened and we use what's referred to as a 371 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:17,159 Speaker 1: standard Y incision, and so it forms a Y where 372 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:21,560 Speaker 1: you make a diagonal cut from the apex of the 373 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:24,440 Speaker 1: left shoulder the apex of the right shoulder down to midsternal. 374 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:28,239 Speaker 1: And why is that Joe, Well, because it enables us 375 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:35,560 Speaker 1: to effectively remove back or retract that external layer of tissue, 376 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:38,840 Speaker 1: which includes skin, the subc fat, all of the muscle 377 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:42,960 Speaker 1: tissue that's in dwelling, and it reveals everything. And also 378 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:45,920 Speaker 1: the body is on what's called it's blocked in the back. 379 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:48,800 Speaker 1: You have kind of these rubber blocks. You put them 380 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:52,520 Speaker 1: beneath the shoulder blades and it hyper extends hyper extends 381 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:54,399 Speaker 1: the chest so that the shoulders kind of fall to 382 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 1: the side. The body really opens up, and you can 383 00:22:56,359 --> 00:23:00,639 Speaker 1: appreciate once you get the body open, you can shape 384 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:04,520 Speaker 1: all of the viscera and that's the internal structures very well. 385 00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:06,880 Speaker 1: They can all be visualized in place, and you want 386 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:09,080 Speaker 1: to be able to see it. I mean, just imagine, 387 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:13,200 Speaker 1: if you will. You've got someone that has been shot 388 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:18,080 Speaker 1: and let's say they're shot in the left side. If 389 00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:22,879 Speaker 1: people will put their finger beneath their armpit on the 390 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:27,119 Speaker 1: left side, and that bullet travels from the left and 391 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:31,960 Speaker 1: it travels maybe slightly upward from below to above, and 392 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:35,280 Speaker 1: it almost transects the body, which means it cuts across 393 00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:37,280 Speaker 1: the entirety of the middle line of the body, and 394 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:40,720 Speaker 1: it exits out beneath the right armpit. You've got all 395 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:43,080 Speaker 1: of these structures that are impacted, and let's think what 396 00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:45,840 Speaker 1: structures might be. Well, you've got the left lung, which 397 00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:49,359 Speaker 1: has only two lobes because the heart's on the left side. 398 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:52,040 Speaker 1: It may go through the heart, then it's going to 399 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:55,280 Speaker 1: go through the right lung, which has got three lobes, 400 00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:58,640 Speaker 1: and then it's going to exit through all of that tissue. 401 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:01,080 Speaker 1: And you have to track that wound see what structures 402 00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:04,520 Speaker 1: are impacted by this, because what you're looking for is 403 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:08,720 Speaker 1: when you make that final diagnosis of what led to death, 404 00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:12,679 Speaker 1: was it simply the lung that was impacted, was it 405 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:16,080 Speaker 1: the heart, or was it in total all of these 406 00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:19,400 Speaker 1: structures being impacted, Say, for instance, if it penetrated the heart, 407 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:22,000 Speaker 1: was that injury that was sustained as a result of 408 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:25,480 Speaker 1: that gunshot when sufficient to cause more of an instantaneous death, 409 00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:28,439 Speaker 1: or did this individual linger. What you're describing for me 410 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:34,600 Speaker 1: here is an autopsy is a lengthy procedure. Oh yeah, yeah, 411 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:38,160 Speaker 1: particularly when you've got these highly complex cases where you've 412 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 1: got multiple trauma. Now you might if you have a case, 413 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 1: for instance, where an individual is say it is very sad, 414 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:48,000 Speaker 1: but we do more of these than anything else. I 415 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:51,880 Speaker 1: would imagine as far as trauma goes, and those are suicides, Well, 416 00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:54,159 Speaker 1: you've got a single self inflicted gunshot when or at 417 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:57,480 Speaker 1: least you think that it might be. But remember our 418 00:24:57,520 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 1: starting point is every death is a homicide until we 419 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:03,200 Speaker 1: prove otherwise. You've got a single bullet in that case, 420 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:05,080 Speaker 1: and you track that bullet and lets say it's a 421 00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:07,880 Speaker 1: self inflicted gunshot wound to the head. Well, maybe they're 422 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:09,600 Speaker 1: right handed. It went from the right side of the 423 00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:11,119 Speaker 1: head to the left side of the head. Maybe it 424 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:13,560 Speaker 1: stayed in, maybe it exited. You're going to track that 425 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:17,800 Speaker 1: wound and beyond that, there's not too much more to discover. 426 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:20,400 Speaker 1: You're going to try to rule out any other kind 427 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:23,439 Speaker 1: of trauma that may or may not be present. And 428 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:30,400 Speaker 1: this again goes to another underlined principle within forensics, negative 429 00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:34,200 Speaker 1: findings are just as important as positive findings, So an 430 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:38,400 Speaker 1: absence of trauma is significant. Okay, all right, So if 431 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:41,480 Speaker 1: I can say at autopsy that there's no trauma to 432 00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:44,240 Speaker 1: the neck, well that's something that has to be made 433 00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:47,719 Speaker 1: note of. You cannot just assume that people will understand 434 00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:49,959 Speaker 1: there was no trauma to the neck, because if this 435 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:52,760 Speaker 1: thing were to go to court for whatever reason, one 436 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:55,600 Speaker 1: of the questions that's going to be asked of the 437 00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:59,359 Speaker 1: person conducting the autopsy is, well, you don't say any 438 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:02,639 Speaker 1: thing about what you saw with the neck. Does that 439 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:06,280 Speaker 1: mean that it didn't examine the neck or does that 440 00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:08,920 Speaker 1: mean that you didn't see anything? Why would you fail? 441 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:11,359 Speaker 1: I mean the next pretty significant, right, and you wind 442 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:13,800 Speaker 1: up looking like an idiot on the stand. So you 443 00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:16,840 Speaker 1: cover that you have to document that there was no 444 00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:19,080 Speaker 1: trauma to the neck, or that there was trauma to 445 00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:21,359 Speaker 1: the neck. All of it is part and parcel of 446 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:25,000 Speaker 1: a bigger picture. So you're right when you say that 447 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:28,159 Speaker 1: these things take time. It's not just the individual trauma 448 00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:30,080 Speaker 1: that you can see. You also have to document those 449 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:33,119 Speaker 1: things that are not there. And that's quite fascinating when 450 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:34,880 Speaker 1: you think about it. There's not too many other things 451 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:37,680 Speaker 1: in life that you document the absence of something in 452 00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:41,520 Speaker 1: that sense. I've always been fascinated by that one, that 453 00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:45,840 Speaker 1: one little point that's very significant in forensic pathology in particular, 454 00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:52,400 Speaker 1: you are describing autopsy suites in larger areas where they 455 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 1: can have multiple tables and autopsies going at the same time. 456 00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:58,880 Speaker 1: Given the amount of time that it seems to take 457 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 1: for each autopsy, and given how many deaths unfortunately that 458 00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:08,480 Speaker 1: most city see every day, the idea that we see 459 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 1: in some cop shows that hey, can you push this 460 00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:14,320 Speaker 1: to the top of the line. Does that work? I'm 461 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:16,480 Speaker 1: going to be I guess kind of cheeky here. I'm 462 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:18,520 Speaker 1: going to say that all depends on how many politicians 463 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:21,720 Speaker 1: called the official. Most of the time, you'd want to think, no, 464 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:25,680 Speaker 1: everybody awaits their turn. But if there are particular high 465 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:29,240 Speaker 1: profile cases that are going on that particular day. You 466 00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:31,920 Speaker 1: look back historically, I think, and you think about cases 467 00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:35,679 Speaker 1: like Ron Goldman for instance, and Nicole Brown Simpson, Well 468 00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:41,240 Speaker 1: that was at the La County corner where those examinations 469 00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:45,840 Speaker 1: were done. You would like to think that that particular 470 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:51,040 Speaker 1: forensic pathologists and their team that was involved in that 471 00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:54,520 Speaker 1: case would have been on those two cases, in those 472 00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:57,600 Speaker 1: two cases alone, and that they would have been given 473 00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:03,320 Speaker 1: as much time as possible. However, I don't think that 474 00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:06,199 Speaker 1: people appreciate the volume of cases that come through a 475 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:09,320 Speaker 1: shop like La County. That same day, they may have 476 00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:12,520 Speaker 1: had twenty other autopsies that had to be done. And 477 00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:16,119 Speaker 1: there is a finite number of forensic pathologists out there, 478 00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:19,000 Speaker 1: as a matter of fact, depend upon who you ask. 479 00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:21,440 Speaker 1: At any point in time, you'll hear numbers like five 480 00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:28,760 Speaker 1: to fifty or six hundred board certified forensic pathologist nationwide. Okay, 481 00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:32,080 Speaker 1: just let that sink in. There's and I'm not saying 482 00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:37,119 Speaker 1: forensic pathologists are smarter than a neurosurgeon, but there are 483 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:41,080 Speaker 1: more neurosurgeons out there practicing than there are forensic pathologists. 484 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:42,840 Speaker 1: And if you want that level of skill to be 485 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:45,560 Speaker 1: performed for an autopsy, you're going to have to really 486 00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:48,440 Speaker 1: look for these people and attract them to work in 487 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:51,240 Speaker 1: a particular area, because, let's face it, you go to 488 00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:55,040 Speaker 1: the large urban areas, people will apply for those jobs 489 00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:57,480 Speaker 1: and they will have availability, they'll have a need for 490 00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:00,320 Speaker 1: forensic pathologists. But you go to a more rural area, 491 00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:02,840 Speaker 1: they're not going to have access necessarily to a forensic 492 00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:05,880 Speaker 1: pathologist because there's so very few. It just the numbers 493 00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:10,600 Speaker 1: just dictate that, and so it's really an odd position 494 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker 1: to be in. And then even if you have a 495 00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 1: full staff, you get to these areas, these big urban 496 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:17,640 Speaker 1: areas where they have huge volumes of deaths and autopsies 497 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:21,520 Speaker 1: that have to be performed, those staffs are overworked many 498 00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:23,560 Speaker 1: many times, and it's hard to get people to come 499 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:25,680 Speaker 1: into the field. It looks really sexy on TV and 500 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:27,440 Speaker 1: people talk about it, and I have kids that come 501 00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:28,920 Speaker 1: to me all the time say they want to be 502 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:33,640 Speaker 1: a forensic pathologist. But what's fascinating is I've talked to 503 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 1: people over the years and one of the interesting things 504 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:38,800 Speaker 1: is is that when friends of pathologists go through their training, 505 00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:42,720 Speaker 1: it's one of those unique kind of educational journeys where 506 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:46,920 Speaker 1: the more education you get essentially the less you get paid. Okay, 507 00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:49,560 Speaker 1: so if you just stop at a fellowship or an 508 00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:53,480 Speaker 1: internship will be in a clinical pathologist and anatomical pathologist, 509 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:55,000 Speaker 1: you're work in a hospital, You're going to make a 510 00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:58,280 Speaker 1: lot more than the guy that goes on beyond that 511 00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:01,440 Speaker 1: training and doesn't one year fellowship up in forensic pathology, 512 00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:04,240 Speaker 1: and you're going to wind up working any more, work 513 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:06,960 Speaker 1: in a city, in an urban area most of the time, 514 00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:10,479 Speaker 1: dealing with most unpleasant cases you can imagine, and then 515 00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:12,840 Speaker 1: traveling around and going to court, and you're gonna get 516 00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:15,160 Speaker 1: paid as a government employee. That's kind of one of 517 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:18,040 Speaker 1: the little dynamics that you know that you're kind of 518 00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:21,920 Speaker 1: faced with in the medical legal community. Joe, you mentioned 519 00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:26,920 Speaker 1: surgeons just a second ago. Is an autopsy considered surgery? 520 00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:31,080 Speaker 1: I think for years it has been regarded as a 521 00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:34,560 Speaker 1: type of surgery, and you will hear the term autopsy surgeon, 522 00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:38,600 Speaker 1: particularly going back years and years. I love history, and 523 00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:42,440 Speaker 1: what's really kind of fascinating about the trajectory that you 524 00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:47,680 Speaker 1: see with gross anatomical dissection is that even up until 525 00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:51,440 Speaker 1: I guess probably the early eighteen hundreds, the first part 526 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:54,400 Speaker 1: of the nineteenth century, it was illegal in many places 527 00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:58,600 Speaker 1: to do dissections on human remains period. And you know, 528 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:01,240 Speaker 1: there's all kinds of stories about grave robbers that would 529 00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:03,800 Speaker 1: go and disinter bodies and they would bring them back 530 00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:06,880 Speaker 1: to medical schools and by the light of a whale 531 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:10,040 Speaker 1: oa lamp or whatever, medical students in order to try 532 00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:14,640 Speaker 1: to learn anatomy, would dissect these bodies that have been 533 00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:17,600 Speaker 1: removed from the ground just to try to understand anatomy. 534 00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:21,160 Speaker 1: And so it has not been something that has been 535 00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:24,520 Speaker 1: done for centuries and centuries and centuries because it was 536 00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:28,800 Speaker 1: so prohibited for so long. Now through the twentieth century 537 00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:31,480 Speaker 1: and obviously into the twenty first now you know autopsies 538 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:35,720 Speaker 1: are common. They are in necessity. A very small percentage 539 00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:37,680 Speaker 1: of the cases that a medical examiner or a corner 540 00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:40,640 Speaker 1: deal with are homicides. And that's what you always think 541 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:43,800 Speaker 1: about with people in my field, and that's not the case. 542 00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:46,800 Speaker 1: It's just not the lines share cases we deal with 543 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:52,120 Speaker 1: are some kind of natural event. If you don't have 544 00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:57,560 Speaker 1: an interest in natural disease pathology, looking at bodies where 545 00:31:57,560 --> 00:31:59,840 Speaker 1: you're trying to make a determination about manner and cause 546 00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:02,800 Speaker 1: it death, it's not going to be gunshot wounds. Most 547 00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:05,120 Speaker 1: of the time, you're going to be dealing with natural 548 00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:07,520 Speaker 1: disease and trying to make a determination. And there's beer 549 00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:10,640 Speaker 1: considerations here. Number One is the community in which these 550 00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:13,000 Speaker 1: people live. Did this person suddenly die because there's some 551 00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:15,840 Speaker 1: kind of public health issue. I was in Atlanta when 552 00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:17,560 Speaker 1: we were at the height of one of the biggest 553 00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:20,480 Speaker 1: TV scares in the nation. We were like the TV 554 00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:24,160 Speaker 1: capital of the nation in like the nineties or something, 555 00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:27,000 Speaker 1: and we had all of these people that were homeless 556 00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:29,320 Speaker 1: and other people that were dying of TV, and that's 557 00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:33,360 Speaker 1: a public health concern, and then you think about broad 558 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:36,280 Speaker 1: ranging other diseases that are out there. I started my 559 00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:38,680 Speaker 1: career at the height of the AIDS epidemic, and we 560 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:41,120 Speaker 1: were terrified to be in the morgue because we didn't 561 00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:42,880 Speaker 1: know what was going to happen if we stuck ourselves 562 00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:45,440 Speaker 1: with a dirty needle or cut ourselves with a dirty scalpel, 563 00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:48,600 Speaker 1: and that does happen. We've all been nick in the morgue. 564 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:52,400 Speaker 1: It's not as clean as people think, it's as necessarily precise. 565 00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:55,040 Speaker 1: It's like a standard of surgery, you know, when you 566 00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:57,920 Speaker 1: go into these environments because you're doing multiple cases, you're 567 00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:01,800 Speaker 1: doing them quickly. It's a different world to kind of 568 00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:05,560 Speaker 1: be a part of. But absolutely grateful that I was 569 00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:07,880 Speaker 1: part of that world because I learned more. Now I 570 00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:29,959 Speaker 1: have an opportunity to teach. When people found out what 571 00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:34,000 Speaker 1: I did for a living, i'd get one of two reactions. 572 00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:41,080 Speaker 1: Either people would lean in and want to hear more 573 00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:45,400 Speaker 1: because by our nature as humans, we have morbid curiosity 574 00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:50,200 Speaker 1: about things. Or I've actually answered the question of what 575 00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:52,960 Speaker 1: I did for a living at a party and had 576 00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:57,000 Speaker 1: people immediately turn on their heel and walk away. They 577 00:33:57,120 --> 00:34:00,600 Speaker 1: don't want to hear anything else about death. There's rarely 578 00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:04,560 Speaker 1: middle ground when that conversation starts. You know, I never 579 00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:07,680 Speaker 1: thought that I had a morbid curiosity about me, but 580 00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,520 Speaker 1: I have been proven wrong. The more I talk about you, 581 00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:15,160 Speaker 1: the more I want to know. So let's play twenty questions, 582 00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:19,080 Speaker 1: so to speak with Joe Scott Morgan. What makes a 583 00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:23,959 Speaker 1: person want to deal with dead bodies? And how do 584 00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:27,560 Speaker 1: you get into that profession? How do you get to 585 00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:31,400 Speaker 1: work in a morgue? For me, it was a curious 586 00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:35,640 Speaker 1: set of circumstances. Now it's really actually difficult to get 587 00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:38,759 Speaker 1: into a more to even view an autopsy because of 588 00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:41,160 Speaker 1: all of the health considerations and all these sorts of things. 589 00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:45,000 Speaker 1: But I happen to be working at a hospital in 590 00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:48,920 Speaker 1: security and working also as an ear tech while the 591 00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:52,839 Speaker 1: morgue in our parish down there was being renovated and 592 00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:55,520 Speaker 1: they started bringing bodies to our hospital to do the 593 00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:57,920 Speaker 1: autopsies for the parish, which is the same as a county, 594 00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:00,680 Speaker 1: and I became friends with the p well at the 595 00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:03,359 Speaker 1: coroner's office, and I would be the one that would 596 00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:05,239 Speaker 1: shuffle bodies in and out the door, and there were 597 00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:08,080 Speaker 1: a huge volume of them, and I just became friends 598 00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:10,719 Speaker 1: with these folks and started, believe it or not, I 599 00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:13,760 Speaker 1: started attending autopsies on my free time, not getting paid, 600 00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:15,640 Speaker 1: but I was just fascinated by it because I'd always 601 00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:18,359 Speaker 1: been a science guy. And the next thing I knew, 602 00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:21,520 Speaker 1: I was taking notes for them, and eventually they allowed 603 00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:23,840 Speaker 1: me to participate an autopsy. O go wait, wait, taking 604 00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:26,160 Speaker 1: notes for them? What does that mean? Well, I would 605 00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:29,000 Speaker 1: work as a scribe for the forensic pathologists. If you 606 00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:32,840 Speaker 1: can imagine the stupid young kid who had no background 607 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:38,600 Speaker 1: in it, but was willing to sit there with bloated, 608 00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:44,239 Speaker 1: decomposing remains. Horrible traumatic cases, the worst of the worst 609 00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:48,680 Speaker 1: cases you can possibly see. And I didn't necessarily retract 610 00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:51,160 Speaker 1: or retreat from it. And that's not always the circumstance 611 00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:53,160 Speaker 1: when people go to an autopsy for the first time. 612 00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:55,120 Speaker 1: I've had one of my best friends that became a 613 00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:59,680 Speaker 1: fantastic homicide investigator. I was in the middle of opening 614 00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:03,520 Speaker 1: gunshot wounded victim's head in the middle of it, and 615 00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:05,879 Speaker 1: he my friend just kind of back up. My friend 616 00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:10,080 Speaker 1: was actually a burglary detective in the jurisdiction where I 617 00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:12,200 Speaker 1: was working, and he and I had played golf together 618 00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:14,360 Speaker 1: over the years and whatnot, and he wanted to transition 619 00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:16,239 Speaker 1: the homicide. One of the requirements is you had to 620 00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:21,799 Speaker 1: go to autopsies. He'd never been and famously I'd used 621 00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:23,960 Speaker 1: that kind of high pitched saw it's called striker saw 622 00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:26,239 Speaker 1: and agitating saw its like cas saw, and I was 623 00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:29,320 Speaker 1: open to the skull and the friends of pathologists looked 624 00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:30,920 Speaker 1: up at me over his mask and he said, you 625 00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:32,840 Speaker 1: better check on him. And I looked over and my 626 00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:38,600 Speaker 1: friend was turning green. And he stood up. And he's 627 00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:41,879 Speaker 1: a big guy, I mean just really big, bold, tough guy. 628 00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:43,479 Speaker 1: He's the kind of guy you'd worn on your side. 629 00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:46,280 Speaker 1: There was a fight, and he's always dressed to the nines. 630 00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:49,479 Speaker 1: And he begins to back up and retreat away from 631 00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:53,439 Speaker 1: the autopsy area down a little hallway, and he collapsed 632 00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:56,960 Speaker 1: and went up against a tiled wall in this old 633 00:36:57,040 --> 00:36:59,719 Speaker 1: hospital and slid down the wall. I look back now 634 00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:02,279 Speaker 1: and I laugh at it, because I was covered. You 635 00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:04,480 Speaker 1: can't imagine. I was doing autopsy, had blood on me, 636 00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:06,520 Speaker 1: and we used to wear these big yellow gloves that 637 00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:10,520 Speaker 1: just made the blood pop even more. And he's my friend. 638 00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:13,560 Speaker 1: I was concerned. I thought he'd hurt his head. And 639 00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:17,720 Speaker 1: I was approaching him, walking toward him, saying, are you okay? 640 00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:21,400 Speaker 1: Are you okay? And he automatically still nauseated, and Dizzy 641 00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:23,759 Speaker 1: throws his hands up like I'm a monster, and he 642 00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:26,560 Speaker 1: says no, no, back away, back away, because I'm coming 643 00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:29,000 Speaker 1: at him and I've gotten blood all over, and it 644 00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:32,440 Speaker 1: was just it's one of those curious environments that only 645 00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:37,000 Speaker 1: certain people have the ability to be able to to 646 00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:43,799 Speaker 1: go into and maintain their focus. Well, that's the key. 647 00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:46,319 Speaker 1: It's hard to kind of measure that until you've been 648 00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:49,520 Speaker 1: in that environment. Some people think they want to do it, 649 00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:53,000 Speaker 1: but then they get in there and they realize from 650 00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:57,160 Speaker 1: jump Street that they don't have the And it's not 651 00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:00,600 Speaker 1: a judgment of them, it's just some people react differently 652 00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:04,520 Speaker 1: to seeing a human being that is being opened on 653 00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:08,400 Speaker 1: a table. And I think that's that's natural, but you 654 00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:10,839 Speaker 1: kind of, I think I've said that, you kind of 655 00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:14,080 Speaker 1: develop a callous to it. And I don't mean you 656 00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:17,319 Speaker 1: become callous. You just develop almost like if you're a 657 00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:20,680 Speaker 1: carpenter and you're swinging a hammer, your hands are suited 658 00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:23,000 Speaker 1: to that. After a period of time, you build up 659 00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:25,000 Speaker 1: a callous on your hands so you can handle the hammer. 660 00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:27,759 Speaker 1: And for us, we build up a kind of a 661 00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:30,920 Speaker 1: callous to those things that are required of us to do, 662 00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:32,680 Speaker 1: because who else you're going to get to do it? 663 00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:34,919 Speaker 1: You know, people say they want to do it, but 664 00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:37,440 Speaker 1: there's one thing about saying you want to do it, 665 00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:40,319 Speaker 1: and there's no part to it doing it. You know. 666 00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:42,799 Speaker 1: Over the course of my career, I wound up participating 667 00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:45,200 Speaker 1: in over seven thousand autopsy so I stuck around a 668 00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:49,920 Speaker 1: little while. That is a lot of bodies. You've seen 669 00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:54,080 Speaker 1: those bodies in all stages of things that would fit 670 00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:58,280 Speaker 1: inside a horror movie. Yeah, yeah, you have. And sometimes 671 00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:01,480 Speaker 1: if I happen to watch horror movie, which I generally don't, 672 00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:04,279 Speaker 1: I look at it immediately and say that doesn't look real. 673 00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:07,480 Speaker 1: All right, I'll say, wow, somebody really did their research this, 674 00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:10,320 Speaker 1: this looks very accurate. It's weird how you kind of 675 00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:12,240 Speaker 1: judge things like that when you know you've been involved 676 00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:14,839 Speaker 1: in a field. But yeah, you really do they run 677 00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:17,560 Speaker 1: the gamut. I talked about it in my memoir Blood 678 00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:20,360 Speaker 1: Beneath My Feet. I talked about a horrible kind of 679 00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:23,759 Speaker 1: event where we had a barge that capsized in the 680 00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:27,480 Speaker 1: Gulf of Mexico. They were trying to outrun a hurricane 681 00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:31,000 Speaker 1: that was inbound and they didn't make it, and I 682 00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:34,520 Speaker 1: think we had sixteen sixteen men that lost their lives, 683 00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:37,920 Speaker 1: and they came in slowly. They were able to be 684 00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:41,000 Speaker 1: recovered because they some of them weren't still on board 685 00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:44,160 Speaker 1: when the thing capsized. They went over, and of course 686 00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:47,080 Speaker 1: the bodies were sitting in the heat in the Gulf 687 00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:50,880 Speaker 1: of Mexico, subject to everything that's in the Gulf of Mexico, 688 00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:53,560 Speaker 1: and so you get partial remains, then you get intact 689 00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:57,000 Speaker 1: remains that are severely bloated and compromised. We had a 690 00:39:57,080 --> 00:40:00,920 Speaker 1: very small facility and did a highvolume of cases, and 691 00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:02,799 Speaker 1: we still had our other cases we had to do. 692 00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:06,799 Speaker 1: But we had to bring in a refrigerated truck and 693 00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:09,600 Speaker 1: store these bodies, and we had to do all kinds 694 00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:13,160 Speaker 1: of intense exams, I mean everything to removing the jaws 695 00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:16,560 Speaker 1: on the bodies, to do odent logical examinations, to try 696 00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:19,880 Speaker 1: to determine who these people were. And I was around 697 00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:21,759 Speaker 1: those bodies for so long, and this is not the 698 00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:24,160 Speaker 1: first time that had happened to me or on one 699 00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:26,680 Speaker 1: of my colleagues. I was around those bodies for so 700 00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:29,440 Speaker 1: many days, and in that environment, I couldn't get rid 701 00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:34,480 Speaker 1: of the smell. I couldn't. I literally wound up having 702 00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:39,160 Speaker 1: to shave my entire body because no matter how much 703 00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:42,000 Speaker 1: showered and bathed and all these sorts of things, even 704 00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:44,360 Speaker 1: using vinegar and all those things that they tell you, 705 00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:47,839 Speaker 1: I couldn't get rid of it. I think that part 706 00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:50,880 Speaker 1: of that goes to there's an actual physical thing that happens, 707 00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:53,720 Speaker 1: but I think there's a scarring. I think that happens 708 00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:56,440 Speaker 1: emotionally with that too, where you kind of bear that along. 709 00:40:56,880 --> 00:40:59,400 Speaker 1: And we had this kind of weird culture in the 710 00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:02,359 Speaker 1: medical community. We would walk up almost like you see 711 00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:05,600 Speaker 1: these apes in these National Geographic documentaries where they pick 712 00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:08,239 Speaker 1: at knits and that sort of thing, and we had this. 713 00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:10,839 Speaker 1: We would check one another before we would go out. 714 00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:12,839 Speaker 1: Maybe we'd gone out on a case where we had 715 00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:15,440 Speaker 1: a decomposing body and we would smell each other would say, 716 00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:16,920 Speaker 1: I've got to go talk to a family how do 717 00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:19,480 Speaker 1: I smell? And that's a weird just think about that 718 00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:22,839 Speaker 1: dynamic within an office and you become friends with these 719 00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:25,520 Speaker 1: people you know and say, yeah, do I smell bad? 720 00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:27,960 Speaker 1: And it's not because you haven't bathed or use the odorant, 721 00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:30,120 Speaker 1: but if you've been in the presence of a decomposed body, 722 00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:32,719 Speaker 1: you don't want to expose the public to that. And 723 00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:35,799 Speaker 1: so that's kind of a weird little nuance that we 724 00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:39,359 Speaker 1: have in our community. Joe, you were talking about your 725 00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:41,680 Speaker 1: friends and getting to be friends with these people and 726 00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:44,680 Speaker 1: how they deal with it, but how did your family 727 00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:51,080 Speaker 1: deal with it? Well, interesting little aside. My wife Kim, 728 00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:53,640 Speaker 1: that you know and have met and we've hung out 729 00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:56,319 Speaker 1: and y'all of friends. We actually met on a blind date, 730 00:41:56,760 --> 00:42:00,239 Speaker 1: and of course, being on a blind day, it's very 731 00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:04,120 Speaker 1: uncomfortably anyway. And when I look on a little aside here, 732 00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:05,920 Speaker 1: when I saw her, she's the most beautiful quick joys 733 00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:08,400 Speaker 1: in my life, and I'm thinking, you better make the 734 00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:10,360 Speaker 1: most of this, boy, or You're you're never gonna have 735 00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:12,400 Speaker 1: another shot with a woman that is this beautiful. And 736 00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:15,120 Speaker 1: we okay, enough of the brownie pot, enough of the 737 00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:18,440 Speaker 1: brownie points. Jack. Well, we went on we went on 738 00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:21,600 Speaker 1: a date, and after we went to a ball game together, 739 00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:25,640 Speaker 1: and afterwards we go to a restaurant, actually a pizza place, 740 00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:28,719 Speaker 1: and we're sitting across from one another having a conversation 741 00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:32,680 Speaker 1: and she's saying, now, tell me again, what is it 742 00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:36,160 Speaker 1: that you do for a living. And I'm sitting there 743 00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:39,560 Speaker 1: and I'm describing to her that I work for the 744 00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:43,520 Speaker 1: medical Examiner, which is like the corner and we go 745 00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:47,480 Speaker 1: out and examine the dead and make determinations about who 746 00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:50,800 Speaker 1: they are because they might be unidentified, and we also 747 00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:53,719 Speaker 1: do autopsies. That's that's the way we go about this. 748 00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:58,000 Speaker 1: And she's kind of sitting there with this open jawed 749 00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:01,560 Speaker 1: expression on her face, and I'm thinking, oh my gosh, 750 00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:04,520 Speaker 1: I've really blown this. And then all of a sudden, 751 00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:08,359 Speaker 1: she looks at me and she says, until I met you, 752 00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:11,600 Speaker 1: I never thought about death. And you know, you can 753 00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:14,920 Speaker 1: take anything you want to away from that story, but 754 00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:17,560 Speaker 1: it's not a good beginning to a blind date. But 755 00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:21,680 Speaker 1: she found it interesting because most people, most people out there, 756 00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:24,440 Speaker 1: they don't think about death. They think about their life. 757 00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:29,320 Speaker 1: And the same with my wife. She didn't think about death. 758 00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:33,719 Speaker 1: But when you're sitting there with someone that engages in 759 00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:37,560 Speaker 1: this work every single day. It suddenly comes to a 760 00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:40,000 Speaker 1: full form before you, and you have to consider it 761 00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:44,480 Speaker 1: one way or another. This is the bottom line for it. 762 00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:49,239 Speaker 1: It's horrible, horrible business, and you have to make a 763 00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:51,440 Speaker 1: decision of your own free will if you want to 764 00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:54,200 Speaker 1: be there or not. And if you decide to be there, 765 00:43:54,920 --> 00:43:57,640 Speaker 1: then you do the job to the best of your ability, 766 00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:00,360 Speaker 1: and you understand that you have a unique space that 767 00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:03,800 Speaker 1: you occupy providing a service that a few other people 768 00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:06,640 Speaker 1: are equipped to deal with. It doesn't mean that we're 769 00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:09,960 Speaker 1: any better than anybody else. It just means that we 770 00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:13,880 Speaker 1: have a set of skills that enable us to tolerate 771 00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:18,759 Speaker 1: that environment within reason. But on the human side of it, 772 00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:22,520 Speaker 1: and this happened to me, it wears on you. The 773 00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:30,240 Speaker 1: human mind is only equipped to deal with so much horror. 774 00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:35,719 Speaker 1: You're We're not created that way, We're not equipped that way. 775 00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:38,799 Speaker 1: You hit tolerances, and I know personally, I can't speak 776 00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:41,080 Speaker 1: for any of my colleagues, but I know personally I 777 00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:47,360 Speaker 1: paid a tremendous price with constant nightmares and panic attacks 778 00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:49,440 Speaker 1: and all those things that came along with a diagnosis 779 00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:53,960 Speaker 1: of PTDST At the end of my career. But even 780 00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:57,080 Speaker 1: though I went through all of that, I wouldn't trade 781 00:44:57,120 --> 00:45:02,759 Speaker 1: it for anything in the world because now I'm at 782 00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:06,600 Speaker 1: a point where I get to talk about it, where 783 00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:12,160 Speaker 1: I get to teach about it, and it is quite 784 00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:18,040 Speaker 1: possibly the best thing in the world for me. I'm 785 00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:21,720 Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body Backs.