WEBVTT - NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte Talks Ukraine

0:00:02.360 --> 0:00:06.920
<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news not.

0:00:07.080 --> 0:00:11.639
<v Speaker 2>Richard, thank you for talking to Bloomberg in these very seats. Yesterday,

0:00:11.760 --> 0:00:14.360
<v Speaker 2>Vladimir Lensky sort of sat and told me that the

0:00:14.400 --> 0:00:19.280
<v Speaker 2>one thing he wanted was he wanted American troops in

0:00:19.640 --> 0:00:23.080
<v Speaker 2>Ukraine after after any kind of piece is called. His

0:00:23.079 --> 0:00:26.080
<v Speaker 2>first preference, of course, was NATO, but his second thing

0:00:26.120 --> 0:00:27.920
<v Speaker 2>was the necessity of having Americans there.

0:00:28.400 --> 0:00:30.200
<v Speaker 1>Do you agree with that? Can I be.

0:00:30.320 --> 0:00:32.520
<v Speaker 3>Totally open with you. I'm not sure that this vice

0:00:32.560 --> 0:00:35.559
<v Speaker 3>to discuss future peace deals through the media. I mean,

0:00:35.600 --> 0:00:38.040
<v Speaker 3>if I was, you're telling me that if you're Vladimir,

0:00:38.080 --> 0:00:40.720
<v Speaker 3>Vladimir's putting, you're sitting in a reclining chair, smoking your

0:00:40.760 --> 0:00:43.680
<v Speaker 3>big cigar, and you can tick the boxes yes or not,

0:00:43.880 --> 0:00:46.440
<v Speaker 3>territory given up, yes or not, NATO or whatever. I mean,

0:00:47.040 --> 0:00:49.120
<v Speaker 3>let's not do that. But we have to focus on

0:00:49.200 --> 0:00:52.000
<v Speaker 3>is to get him, vladimirs. Lensky in the best possib

0:00:52.000 --> 0:00:55.200
<v Speaker 3>opposition to start those talks. And what helps, for examples,

0:00:55.240 --> 0:00:57.920
<v Speaker 3>what Trump did this morning, President Trump in announcing or

0:00:58.000 --> 0:00:59.400
<v Speaker 3>yesterday announcing this.

0:00:59.360 --> 0:01:02.320
<v Speaker 1>Extra sanction package on Russia. That's the way forward. And

0:01:02.360 --> 0:01:03.840
<v Speaker 1>you think that you can have a real effect.

0:01:03.960 --> 0:01:07.080
<v Speaker 3>Absolutely if the Europeans will also help. They're doing a lot,

0:01:07.120 --> 0:01:10.240
<v Speaker 3>but they could work vis your magazine conjunction. And then

0:01:10.280 --> 0:01:12.280
<v Speaker 3>of course we also have to see what the Ukraine

0:01:12.440 --> 0:01:15.600
<v Speaker 3>needs more in terms of weapons supplying. I guess if

0:01:15.640 --> 0:01:18.240
<v Speaker 3>the US continues that the Europe has to pay more

0:01:18.280 --> 0:01:21.000
<v Speaker 3>for those weapons, which is on illogical, and of course

0:01:21.000 --> 0:01:22.080
<v Speaker 3>we have to spend more here in.

0:01:22.000 --> 0:01:22.640
<v Speaker 1>This part of the world.

0:01:23.200 --> 0:01:24.600
<v Speaker 2>This morning, I think you said that you know, this

0:01:24.720 --> 0:01:26.240
<v Speaker 2>is Europe's problem, it's not Trump's.

0:01:26.240 --> 0:01:27.360
<v Speaker 1>We shouldn't be blaming him.

0:01:27.560 --> 0:01:31.400
<v Speaker 3>There's many people here whining and complaining about Trump, and

0:01:31.440 --> 0:01:32.960
<v Speaker 3>I would say the problem is not Trump for the

0:01:33.040 --> 0:01:35.720
<v Speaker 3>US polem is Europe. The problem is Europe because at

0:01:35.760 --> 0:01:38.360
<v Speaker 3>the moment we are not spending enough. Trump is also

0:01:38.480 --> 0:01:40.880
<v Speaker 3>pointed when the US is supplying a lot of weaponry

0:01:40.920 --> 0:01:44.560
<v Speaker 3>into Ukraine, that we could pay more of the financial

0:01:44.560 --> 0:01:47.640
<v Speaker 3>burden of that than we are doing currently. And he

0:01:47.680 --> 0:01:49.840
<v Speaker 3>has always consistently been clear about the fact that he

0:01:49.920 --> 0:01:52.800
<v Speaker 3>feels that we are under the US umbrella here and

0:01:52.840 --> 0:01:55.560
<v Speaker 3>not paying enough for that. And luckily, thanks to him

0:01:55.560 --> 0:01:58.200
<v Speaker 3>in the first term, we are paying more. But with

0:01:58.320 --> 0:02:02.320
<v Speaker 3>the present level of spending, we will not keep ourselves safe.

0:02:02.320 --> 0:02:04.800
<v Speaker 2>If we can both agree that more spending would be good.

0:02:05.320 --> 0:02:07.440
<v Speaker 2>Isn't there a sort of bigger issue behind it. It's

0:02:07.520 --> 0:02:09.480
<v Speaker 2>not so much the levels of spending, it's the way

0:02:09.520 --> 0:02:11.480
<v Speaker 2>it's done at the moment. It's such a mess of

0:02:11.520 --> 0:02:14.079
<v Speaker 2>competing people, with competing tanks.

0:02:14.680 --> 0:02:15.560
<v Speaker 1>Everything's a bit of it.

0:02:15.880 --> 0:02:18.080
<v Speaker 2>Is there more to be gained by actually having more

0:02:18.560 --> 0:02:21.280
<v Speaker 2>cohesive spending better done than the actual number?

0:02:21.360 --> 0:02:23.239
<v Speaker 3>No, it's and then I'm afraid it is end to

0:02:23.360 --> 0:02:26.680
<v Speaker 3>number and it will have to be really much more

0:02:26.760 --> 0:02:29.240
<v Speaker 3>than we're spending now in this part of natal and

0:02:29.280 --> 0:02:31.360
<v Speaker 3>by the way, in Canada, so that those not on

0:02:31.400 --> 0:02:33.440
<v Speaker 3>two percent this year have to reach the two percent.

0:02:33.560 --> 0:02:36.080
<v Speaker 3>We cannot create it any longer. And then collectively we

0:02:36.120 --> 0:02:38.359
<v Speaker 3>will decide later this year what exactly the new number

0:02:38.400 --> 0:02:39.959
<v Speaker 3>should be, but it will be much more than a

0:02:40.000 --> 0:02:43.000
<v Speaker 3>two percent. And you're right at the same time on

0:02:43.040 --> 0:02:47.000
<v Speaker 3>the innovation, on joining procurement, on getting the big contracts done.

0:02:47.160 --> 0:02:49.520
<v Speaker 3>We have the defense in this show based the defense industry,

0:02:49.760 --> 0:02:51.880
<v Speaker 3>we have to be much better. And by the way,

0:02:51.960 --> 0:02:54.040
<v Speaker 3>on this last issue, we also need the US to

0:02:54.080 --> 0:02:57.359
<v Speaker 3>step up because also the US defense in your showbase

0:02:57.480 --> 0:03:01.200
<v Speaker 3>is not producing enough. We are from Europe now spending

0:03:01.200 --> 0:03:04.400
<v Speaker 3>out of eighty billions in twenty twenty two buying from

0:03:04.440 --> 0:03:08.360
<v Speaker 3>the US. That could be much more if the US produced.

0:03:07.960 --> 0:03:10.800
<v Speaker 2>More About the idea that this is actually part of

0:03:10.840 --> 0:03:14.200
<v Speaker 2>a sort of bigger contest. You've got later on one side,

0:03:14.280 --> 0:03:17.320
<v Speaker 2>we've got Russia, China, Iran on the other. What is

0:03:17.320 --> 0:03:19.320
<v Speaker 2>your you've come into this job, what is your view

0:03:19.320 --> 0:03:21.880
<v Speaker 2>of that set up at the moment that those two

0:03:21.919 --> 0:03:23.239
<v Speaker 2>of pousing forces.

0:03:23.080 --> 0:03:24.160
<v Speaker 1>Started three half months ago.

0:03:24.280 --> 0:03:28.120
<v Speaker 3>Two early conclusion is one, we are safe now, not

0:03:28.240 --> 0:03:30.440
<v Speaker 3>in five years if you don't spend more. And second

0:03:30.520 --> 0:03:34.040
<v Speaker 3>on your question, this is not a conflict between Russia

0:03:34.560 --> 0:03:39.160
<v Speaker 3>and Ukraine or Russia Europe. Is really a geopolitical issue

0:03:39.160 --> 0:03:42.200
<v Speaker 3>because of North Korea, China and Iran. And that's why

0:03:42.240 --> 0:03:44.080
<v Speaker 3>we need to get to a good deal. And we

0:03:44.120 --> 0:03:46.000
<v Speaker 3>can only get to a good deal if you don't

0:03:46.000 --> 0:03:47.840
<v Speaker 3>negotiate through the media.

0:03:47.960 --> 0:03:49.320
<v Speaker 1>And the good deal means.

0:03:49.080 --> 0:03:53.600
<v Speaker 3>That you will not have put in high fiving with

0:03:53.880 --> 0:03:57.440
<v Speaker 3>Skimiumon and Chia Chinping and the mulas in around. It's

0:03:57.520 --> 0:04:01.000
<v Speaker 3>crucial that we come out stronger, that the US, the

0:04:01.120 --> 0:04:02.480
<v Speaker 3>West is upcoming out on top.

0:04:02.920 --> 0:04:04.240
<v Speaker 1>And what about the way it looks.

0:04:04.320 --> 0:04:06.720
<v Speaker 2>I mean the amount of money we are spending on

0:04:06.840 --> 0:04:10.120
<v Speaker 2>defense and procurement compared with what China, and how do you.

0:04:10.040 --> 0:04:12.000
<v Speaker 1>Think that stacks up a real problem.

0:04:12.320 --> 0:04:14.640
<v Speaker 3>But there is an issue on spending, and of course

0:04:14.880 --> 0:04:16.840
<v Speaker 3>a Russia is not spending one third of a state

0:04:16.839 --> 0:04:17.799
<v Speaker 3>budget on defense.

0:04:18.200 --> 0:04:19.840
<v Speaker 1>Also China is ramping up.

0:04:19.839 --> 0:04:21.760
<v Speaker 3>But when you look at the output of the defense

0:04:21.760 --> 0:04:25.240
<v Speaker 3>industrial base, China is producing now five six times or

0:04:25.279 --> 0:04:28.480
<v Speaker 3>the US is producing. As a collective NATO, we are

0:04:28.480 --> 0:04:31.120
<v Speaker 3>producing in a full year in terms of ammunition, which

0:04:31.200 --> 0:04:35.320
<v Speaker 3>is crucial. What's Russia's producing in three months?

0:04:36.160 --> 0:04:37.120
<v Speaker 1>This is not sustainable.

0:04:37.120 --> 0:04:38.839
<v Speaker 3>And that's why I'm saying for four or five years,

0:04:39.000 --> 0:04:41.320
<v Speaker 3>we cannot defend ourselves if we don't get these two

0:04:41.360 --> 0:04:41.800
<v Speaker 3>things right.

0:04:41.839 --> 0:04:44.240
<v Speaker 1>To spending and the defense product of the problem. And

0:04:44.320 --> 0:04:46.000
<v Speaker 1>you used to be the Prime Minister of the Netherlands

0:04:46.000 --> 0:04:47.680
<v Speaker 1>for a very long time, isn't the problem?

0:04:47.920 --> 0:04:52.559
<v Speaker 2>How difficult it is to convert factories weaponry towards things.

0:04:52.760 --> 0:04:54.080
<v Speaker 1>Putin's got this huge advantage.

0:04:54.120 --> 0:04:56.520
<v Speaker 2>You can simply take a car factory and turn it

0:04:56.560 --> 0:04:57.919
<v Speaker 2>into making tanks or whatever.

0:04:58.240 --> 0:05:00.720
<v Speaker 3>That's true, but we have seen in the past if

0:05:00.720 --> 0:05:02.680
<v Speaker 3>we can do it. Look at the United States in

0:05:02.720 --> 0:05:06.160
<v Speaker 3>the Second World War that when Roosevelts decided to enter

0:05:06.200 --> 0:05:08.839
<v Speaker 3>the war after Pearl Harbor, that the US was able

0:05:08.880 --> 0:05:13.599
<v Speaker 3>to ramp up the industry production because basically putting the

0:05:13.600 --> 0:05:16.160
<v Speaker 3>whole to the US on a war footing. The minimum

0:05:16.160 --> 0:05:17.839
<v Speaker 3>we now have to do is to move into a

0:05:17.880 --> 0:05:21.479
<v Speaker 3>warm mindset. Our mindset should be we are not literally

0:05:21.480 --> 0:05:25.320
<v Speaker 3>at war. Yes, through hybrids and cyber attacks and assassination

0:05:25.400 --> 0:05:28.160
<v Speaker 3>attempts and gemming off airplanes, there's a lot happening there

0:05:28.160 --> 0:05:30.240
<v Speaker 3>which we have to fight back on, but we are

0:05:30.240 --> 0:05:31.840
<v Speaker 3>not in a real hard work at the moment. But

0:05:32.000 --> 0:05:34.000
<v Speaker 3>we need to get to the mindset, and the mindset

0:05:34.040 --> 0:05:37.479
<v Speaker 3>will then also make it possible for us to get

0:05:37.520 --> 0:05:39.680
<v Speaker 3>on our industry based more on a war footing.

0:05:39.839 --> 0:05:45.760
<v Speaker 2>One last thing on mindset, Trump all this rhetoric, tariff's.

0:05:45.320 --> 0:05:45.839
<v Speaker 1>All these things.

0:05:45.880 --> 0:05:49.320
<v Speaker 2>Can you think of any military alliance in history that

0:05:49.680 --> 0:05:53.320
<v Speaker 2>has survived with one set of people issuing tariff threats

0:05:53.360 --> 0:05:56.000
<v Speaker 2>and things on others. It's very hard, I think, to

0:05:56.040 --> 0:05:57.920
<v Speaker 2>think of that as an alliance when there's so.

0:05:57.920 --> 0:05:59.000
<v Speaker 1>Much friction within it.

0:06:00.000 --> 0:06:02.719
<v Speaker 3>And it also helps you to get these debates going,

0:06:03.040 --> 0:06:05.880
<v Speaker 3>and I've seen some actually come out up in Commissioned

0:06:05.880 --> 0:06:08.000
<v Speaker 3>saying we have to buy more oral and more LNG

0:06:08.600 --> 0:06:12.120
<v Speaker 3>from the US. So they are reacting, they are stepping up.

0:06:12.200 --> 0:06:15.440
<v Speaker 3>And when you look at defense spending, I mean it

0:06:15.520 --> 0:06:19.560
<v Speaker 3>is a big deficit in terms of Europe buying so

0:06:19.640 --> 0:06:22.040
<v Speaker 3>much work from the US and the US buying from Europe.

0:06:22.240 --> 0:06:24.240
<v Speaker 1>So it is a bit of a mixed picture.

0:06:24.240 --> 0:06:26.400
<v Speaker 3>But in the end that Trump is starting that debate

0:06:26.520 --> 0:06:28.479
<v Speaker 3>is good and he will always do it in his

0:06:28.520 --> 0:06:31.920
<v Speaker 3>own way, which is mister door in his hand coming in.

0:06:32.240 --> 0:06:34.880
<v Speaker 3>But that's okay because that makes it possible for you

0:06:35.000 --> 0:06:37.440
<v Speaker 3>then to come to an agreement. I'm not too work.

0:06:37.960 --> 0:06:39.920
<v Speaker 2>Well, let's say a good nature and on Mark Rutter,

0:06:40.160 --> 0:06:41.720
<v Speaker 2>thank you very much for talking to us.