Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news not.
Speaker 2: Richard, thank you for talking to Bloomberg in these very seats. Yesterday,
Speaker 2: Vladimir Lensky sort of sat and told me that the
Speaker 2: one thing he wanted was he wanted American troops in
Speaker 2: Ukraine after after any kind of piece is called. His
Speaker 2: first preference, of course, was NATO, but his second thing
Speaker 2: was the necessity of having Americans there.
Speaker 1: Do you agree with that? Can I be.
Speaker 3: Totally open with you. I'm not sure that this vice
Speaker 3: to discuss future peace deals through the media. I mean,
Speaker 3: if I was, you're telling me that if you're Vladimir,
Speaker 3: Vladimir's putting, you're sitting in a reclining chair, smoking your
Speaker 3: big cigar, and you can tick the boxes yes or not,
Speaker 3: territory given up, yes or not, NATO or whatever. I mean,
Speaker 3: let's not do that. But we have to focus on
Speaker 3: is to get him, vladimirs. Lensky in the best possib
Speaker 3: opposition to start those talks. And what helps, for examples,
Speaker 3: what Trump did this morning, President Trump in announcing or
Speaker 3: yesterday announcing this.
Speaker 1: Extra sanction package on Russia. That's the way forward. And
Speaker 1: you think that you can have a real effect.
Speaker 3: Absolutely if the Europeans will also help. They're doing a lot,
Speaker 3: but they could work vis your magazine conjunction. And then
Speaker 3: of course we also have to see what the Ukraine
Speaker 3: needs more in terms of weapons supplying. I guess if
Speaker 3: the US continues that the Europe has to pay more
Speaker 3: for those weapons, which is on illogical, and of course
Speaker 3: we have to spend more here in.
Speaker 1: This part of the world.
Speaker 2: This morning, I think you said that you know, this
Speaker 2: is Europe's problem, it's not Trump's.
Speaker 1: We shouldn't be blaming him.
Speaker 3: There's many people here whining and complaining about Trump, and
Speaker 3: I would say the problem is not Trump for the
Speaker 3: US polem is Europe. The problem is Europe because at
Speaker 3: the moment we are not spending enough. Trump is also
Speaker 3: pointed when the US is supplying a lot of weaponry
Speaker 3: into Ukraine, that we could pay more of the financial
Speaker 3: burden of that than we are doing currently. And he
Speaker 3: has always consistently been clear about the fact that he
Speaker 3: feels that we are under the US umbrella here and
Speaker 3: not paying enough for that. And luckily, thanks to him
Speaker 3: in the first term, we are paying more. But with
Speaker 3: the present level of spending, we will not keep ourselves safe.
Speaker 2: If we can both agree that more spending would be good.
Speaker 2: Isn't there a sort of bigger issue behind it. It's
Speaker 2: not so much the levels of spending, it's the way
Speaker 2: it's done at the moment. It's such a mess of
Speaker 2: competing people, with competing tanks.
Speaker 1: Everything's a bit of it.
Speaker 2: Is there more to be gained by actually having more
Speaker 2: cohesive spending better done than the actual number?
Speaker 3: No, it's and then I'm afraid it is end to
Speaker 3: number and it will have to be really much more
Speaker 3: than we're spending now in this part of natal and
Speaker 3: by the way, in Canada, so that those not on
Speaker 3: two percent this year have to reach the two percent.
Speaker 3: We cannot create it any longer. And then collectively we
Speaker 3: will decide later this year what exactly the new number
Speaker 3: should be, but it will be much more than a
Speaker 3: two percent. And you're right at the same time on
Speaker 3: the innovation, on joining procurement, on getting the big contracts done.
Speaker 3: We have the defense in this show based the defense industry,
Speaker 3: we have to be much better. And by the way,
Speaker 3: on this last issue, we also need the US to
Speaker 3: step up because also the US defense in your showbase
Speaker 3: is not producing enough. We are from Europe now spending
Speaker 3: out of eighty billions in twenty twenty two buying from
Speaker 3: the US. That could be much more if the US produced.
Speaker 2: More About the idea that this is actually part of
Speaker 2: a sort of bigger contest. You've got later on one side,
Speaker 2: we've got Russia, China, Iran on the other. What is
Speaker 2: your you've come into this job, what is your view
Speaker 2: of that set up at the moment that those two
Speaker 2: of pousing forces.
Speaker 1: Started three half months ago.
Speaker 3: Two early conclusion is one, we are safe now, not
Speaker 3: in five years if you don't spend more. And second
Speaker 3: on your question, this is not a conflict between Russia
Speaker 3: and Ukraine or Russia Europe. Is really a geopolitical issue
Speaker 3: because of North Korea, China and Iran. And that's why
Speaker 3: we need to get to a good deal. And we
Speaker 3: can only get to a good deal if you don't
Speaker 3: negotiate through the media.
Speaker 1: And the good deal means.
Speaker 3: That you will not have put in high fiving with
Speaker 3: Skimiumon and Chia Chinping and the mulas in around. It's
Speaker 3: crucial that we come out stronger, that the US, the
Speaker 3: West is upcoming out on top.
Speaker 1: And what about the way it looks.
Speaker 2: I mean the amount of money we are spending on
Speaker 2: defense and procurement compared with what China, and how do you.
Speaker 1: Think that stacks up a real problem.
Speaker 3: But there is an issue on spending, and of course
Speaker 3: a Russia is not spending one third of a state
Speaker 3: budget on defense.
Speaker 1: Also China is ramping up.
Speaker 3: But when you look at the output of the defense
Speaker 3: industrial base, China is producing now five six times or
Speaker 3: the US is producing. As a collective NATO, we are
Speaker 3: producing in a full year in terms of ammunition, which
Speaker 3: is crucial. What's Russia's producing in three months?
Speaker 1: This is not sustainable.
Speaker 3: And that's why I'm saying for four or five years,
Speaker 3: we cannot defend ourselves if we don't get these two
Speaker 3: things right.
Speaker 1: To spending and the defense product of the problem. And
Speaker 1: you used to be the Prime Minister of the Netherlands
Speaker 1: for a very long time, isn't the problem?
Speaker 2: How difficult it is to convert factories weaponry towards things.
Speaker 1: Putin's got this huge advantage.
Speaker 2: You can simply take a car factory and turn it
Speaker 2: into making tanks or whatever.
Speaker 3: That's true, but we have seen in the past if
Speaker 3: we can do it. Look at the United States in
Speaker 3: the Second World War that when Roosevelts decided to enter
Speaker 3: the war after Pearl Harbor, that the US was able
Speaker 3: to ramp up the industry production because basically putting the
Speaker 3: whole to the US on a war footing. The minimum
Speaker 3: we now have to do is to move into a
Speaker 3: warm mindset. Our mindset should be we are not literally
Speaker 3: at war. Yes, through hybrids and cyber attacks and assassination
Speaker 3: attempts and gemming off airplanes, there's a lot happening there
Speaker 3: which we have to fight back on, but we are
Speaker 3: not in a real hard work at the moment. But
Speaker 3: we need to get to the mindset, and the mindset
Speaker 3: will then also make it possible for us to get
Speaker 3: on our industry based more on a war footing.
Speaker 2: One last thing on mindset, Trump all this rhetoric, tariff's.
Speaker 1: All these things.
Speaker 2: Can you think of any military alliance in history that
Speaker 2: has survived with one set of people issuing tariff threats
Speaker 2: and things on others. It's very hard, I think, to
Speaker 2: think of that as an alliance when there's so.
Speaker 1: Much friction within it.
Speaker 3: And it also helps you to get these debates going,
Speaker 3: and I've seen some actually come out up in Commissioned
Speaker 3: saying we have to buy more oral and more LNG
Speaker 3: from the US. So they are reacting, they are stepping up.
Speaker 3: And when you look at defense spending, I mean it
Speaker 3: is a big deficit in terms of Europe buying so
Speaker 3: much work from the US and the US buying from Europe.
Speaker 1: So it is a bit of a mixed picture.
Speaker 3: But in the end that Trump is starting that debate
Speaker 3: is good and he will always do it in his
Speaker 3: own way, which is mister door in his hand coming in.
Speaker 3: But that's okay because that makes it possible for you
Speaker 3: then to come to an agreement. I'm not too work.
Speaker 2: Well, let's say a good nature and on Mark Rutter,
Speaker 2: thank you very much for talking to us.