1 00:00:02,360 --> 00:00:06,920 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news not. 2 00:00:07,080 --> 00:00:11,639 Speaker 2: Richard, thank you for talking to Bloomberg in these very seats. Yesterday, 3 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:14,360 Speaker 2: Vladimir Lensky sort of sat and told me that the 4 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:19,280 Speaker 2: one thing he wanted was he wanted American troops in 5 00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:23,080 Speaker 2: Ukraine after after any kind of piece is called. His 6 00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:26,080 Speaker 2: first preference, of course, was NATO, but his second thing 7 00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:27,920 Speaker 2: was the necessity of having Americans there. 8 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:30,200 Speaker 1: Do you agree with that? Can I be. 9 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:32,520 Speaker 3: Totally open with you. I'm not sure that this vice 10 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:35,559 Speaker 3: to discuss future peace deals through the media. I mean, 11 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:38,040 Speaker 3: if I was, you're telling me that if you're Vladimir, 12 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:40,720 Speaker 3: Vladimir's putting, you're sitting in a reclining chair, smoking your 13 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:43,680 Speaker 3: big cigar, and you can tick the boxes yes or not, 14 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:46,440 Speaker 3: territory given up, yes or not, NATO or whatever. I mean, 15 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:49,120 Speaker 3: let's not do that. But we have to focus on 16 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 3: is to get him, vladimirs. Lensky in the best possib 17 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:55,200 Speaker 3: opposition to start those talks. And what helps, for examples, 18 00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:57,920 Speaker 3: what Trump did this morning, President Trump in announcing or 19 00:00:58,000 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 3: yesterday announcing this. 20 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 1: Extra sanction package on Russia. That's the way forward. And 21 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 1: you think that you can have a real effect. 22 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:07,080 Speaker 3: Absolutely if the Europeans will also help. They're doing a lot, 23 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:10,240 Speaker 3: but they could work vis your magazine conjunction. And then 24 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:12,280 Speaker 3: of course we also have to see what the Ukraine 25 00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 3: needs more in terms of weapons supplying. I guess if 26 00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:18,240 Speaker 3: the US continues that the Europe has to pay more 27 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:21,000 Speaker 3: for those weapons, which is on illogical, and of course 28 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 3: we have to spend more here in. 29 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:22,640 Speaker 1: This part of the world. 30 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:24,600 Speaker 2: This morning, I think you said that you know, this 31 00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:26,240 Speaker 2: is Europe's problem, it's not Trump's. 32 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:27,360 Speaker 1: We shouldn't be blaming him. 33 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:31,400 Speaker 3: There's many people here whining and complaining about Trump, and 34 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:32,960 Speaker 3: I would say the problem is not Trump for the 35 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:35,720 Speaker 3: US polem is Europe. The problem is Europe because at 36 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 3: the moment we are not spending enough. Trump is also 37 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:40,880 Speaker 3: pointed when the US is supplying a lot of weaponry 38 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:44,560 Speaker 3: into Ukraine, that we could pay more of the financial 39 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:47,640 Speaker 3: burden of that than we are doing currently. And he 40 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 3: has always consistently been clear about the fact that he 41 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 3: feels that we are under the US umbrella here and 42 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:55,560 Speaker 3: not paying enough for that. And luckily, thanks to him 43 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 3: in the first term, we are paying more. But with 44 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 3: the present level of spending, we will not keep ourselves safe. 45 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:04,800 Speaker 2: If we can both agree that more spending would be good. 46 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:07,440 Speaker 2: Isn't there a sort of bigger issue behind it. It's 47 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:09,480 Speaker 2: not so much the levels of spending, it's the way 48 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 2: it's done at the moment. It's such a mess of 49 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:14,079 Speaker 2: competing people, with competing tanks. 50 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:15,560 Speaker 1: Everything's a bit of it. 51 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:18,080 Speaker 2: Is there more to be gained by actually having more 52 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:21,280 Speaker 2: cohesive spending better done than the actual number? 53 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:23,239 Speaker 3: No, it's and then I'm afraid it is end to 54 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:26,680 Speaker 3: number and it will have to be really much more 55 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:29,240 Speaker 3: than we're spending now in this part of natal and 56 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:31,360 Speaker 3: by the way, in Canada, so that those not on 57 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:33,440 Speaker 3: two percent this year have to reach the two percent. 58 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:36,080 Speaker 3: We cannot create it any longer. And then collectively we 59 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:38,359 Speaker 3: will decide later this year what exactly the new number 60 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:39,959 Speaker 3: should be, but it will be much more than a 61 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:43,000 Speaker 3: two percent. And you're right at the same time on 62 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 3: the innovation, on joining procurement, on getting the big contracts done. 63 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:49,520 Speaker 3: We have the defense in this show based the defense industry, 64 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 3: we have to be much better. And by the way, 65 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 3: on this last issue, we also need the US to 66 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:57,359 Speaker 3: step up because also the US defense in your showbase 67 00:02:57,480 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 3: is not producing enough. We are from Europe now spending 68 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:04,400 Speaker 3: out of eighty billions in twenty twenty two buying from 69 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:08,360 Speaker 3: the US. That could be much more if the US produced. 70 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:10,800 Speaker 2: More About the idea that this is actually part of 71 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:14,200 Speaker 2: a sort of bigger contest. You've got later on one side, 72 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:17,320 Speaker 2: we've got Russia, China, Iran on the other. What is 73 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 2: your you've come into this job, what is your view 74 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 2: of that set up at the moment that those two 75 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:23,239 Speaker 2: of pousing forces. 76 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 1: Started three half months ago. 77 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:28,120 Speaker 3: Two early conclusion is one, we are safe now, not 78 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 3: in five years if you don't spend more. And second 79 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 3: on your question, this is not a conflict between Russia 80 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:39,160 Speaker 3: and Ukraine or Russia Europe. Is really a geopolitical issue 81 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:42,200 Speaker 3: because of North Korea, China and Iran. And that's why 82 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:44,080 Speaker 3: we need to get to a good deal. And we 83 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:46,000 Speaker 3: can only get to a good deal if you don't 84 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:47,840 Speaker 3: negotiate through the media. 85 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:49,320 Speaker 1: And the good deal means. 86 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 3: That you will not have put in high fiving with 87 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 3: Skimiumon and Chia Chinping and the mulas in around. It's 88 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:01,000 Speaker 3: crucial that we come out stronger, that the US, the 89 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 3: West is upcoming out on top. 90 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:04,240 Speaker 1: And what about the way it looks. 91 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:06,720 Speaker 2: I mean the amount of money we are spending on 92 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:10,120 Speaker 2: defense and procurement compared with what China, and how do you. 93 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:12,000 Speaker 1: Think that stacks up a real problem. 94 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 3: But there is an issue on spending, and of course 95 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:16,840 Speaker 3: a Russia is not spending one third of a state 96 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:17,799 Speaker 3: budget on defense. 97 00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:19,840 Speaker 1: Also China is ramping up. 98 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:21,760 Speaker 3: But when you look at the output of the defense 99 00:04:21,760 --> 00:04:25,240 Speaker 3: industrial base, China is producing now five six times or 100 00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:28,480 Speaker 3: the US is producing. As a collective NATO, we are 101 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:31,120 Speaker 3: producing in a full year in terms of ammunition, which 102 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 3: is crucial. What's Russia's producing in three months? 103 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:37,120 Speaker 1: This is not sustainable. 104 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:38,839 Speaker 3: And that's why I'm saying for four or five years, 105 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 3: we cannot defend ourselves if we don't get these two 106 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 3: things right. 107 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:44,240 Speaker 1: To spending and the defense product of the problem. And 108 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 1: you used to be the Prime Minister of the Netherlands 109 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 1: for a very long time, isn't the problem? 110 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:52,559 Speaker 2: How difficult it is to convert factories weaponry towards things. 111 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:54,080 Speaker 1: Putin's got this huge advantage. 112 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:56,520 Speaker 2: You can simply take a car factory and turn it 113 00:04:56,560 --> 00:04:57,919 Speaker 2: into making tanks or whatever. 114 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:00,720 Speaker 3: That's true, but we have seen in the past if 115 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:02,680 Speaker 3: we can do it. Look at the United States in 116 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:06,160 Speaker 3: the Second World War that when Roosevelts decided to enter 117 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:08,839 Speaker 3: the war after Pearl Harbor, that the US was able 118 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:13,599 Speaker 3: to ramp up the industry production because basically putting the 119 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:16,160 Speaker 3: whole to the US on a war footing. The minimum 120 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:17,839 Speaker 3: we now have to do is to move into a 121 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:21,479 Speaker 3: warm mindset. Our mindset should be we are not literally 122 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:25,320 Speaker 3: at war. Yes, through hybrids and cyber attacks and assassination 123 00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:28,160 Speaker 3: attempts and gemming off airplanes, there's a lot happening there 124 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:30,240 Speaker 3: which we have to fight back on, but we are 125 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:31,840 Speaker 3: not in a real hard work at the moment. But 126 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:34,000 Speaker 3: we need to get to the mindset, and the mindset 127 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:37,479 Speaker 3: will then also make it possible for us to get 128 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:39,680 Speaker 3: on our industry based more on a war footing. 129 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:45,760 Speaker 2: One last thing on mindset, Trump all this rhetoric, tariff's. 130 00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:45,839 Speaker 1: All these things. 131 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:49,320 Speaker 2: Can you think of any military alliance in history that 132 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 2: has survived with one set of people issuing tariff threats 133 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 2: and things on others. It's very hard, I think, to 134 00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:57,920 Speaker 2: think of that as an alliance when there's so. 135 00:05:57,920 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 1: Much friction within it. 136 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:02,719 Speaker 3: And it also helps you to get these debates going, 137 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:05,880 Speaker 3: and I've seen some actually come out up in Commissioned 138 00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 3: saying we have to buy more oral and more LNG 139 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:12,120 Speaker 3: from the US. So they are reacting, they are stepping up. 140 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 3: And when you look at defense spending, I mean it 141 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 3: is a big deficit in terms of Europe buying so 142 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:22,040 Speaker 3: much work from the US and the US buying from Europe. 143 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:24,240 Speaker 1: So it is a bit of a mixed picture. 144 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:26,400 Speaker 3: But in the end that Trump is starting that debate 145 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:28,479 Speaker 3: is good and he will always do it in his 146 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:31,920 Speaker 3: own way, which is mister door in his hand coming in. 147 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:34,880 Speaker 3: But that's okay because that makes it possible for you 148 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 3: then to come to an agreement. I'm not too work. 149 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:39,920 Speaker 2: Well, let's say a good nature and on Mark Rutter, 150 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:41,720 Speaker 2: thank you very much for talking to us.