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Speaker 1: In about two years. My little babies, as I call them,

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Speaker 1: aren't going to be fifteen. And I couldn't help but

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Speaker 1: think about that when I first read about the case

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Speaker 1: of Melanie Lions, she just turned fifteen. It was her birthday.

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Speaker 1: She celebrated at the movies, and then she was stabbed dead.

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Speaker 1: Sled that so ken just for a moment. She celebrated

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Speaker 1: at the movie theater with her friends, and then she

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Speaker 1: was stabbed dead. Sometimes facts and cases are so difficult

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Speaker 1: it's hard to even say them out loud. And it

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Speaker 1: was so hard for me the first year or so

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Speaker 1: that I began trying felonies. You know, up to then,

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Speaker 1: I've been drawing up indictments over in GV Justice, looking

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Speaker 1: at appeals deadbeat dads. When you stand up in front

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Speaker 1: of a jury and have to explain horrible details of

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Speaker 1: horrible cases, it hurts. And you know that sitting right

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Speaker 1: behind you on a row one his victim's family. And

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Speaker 1: that's what we have today because with me is a

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Speaker 1: very very special guest, Melanie Lyon's grandmother, Missilanda Lamonia. With

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Speaker 1: me an all star panel. But first I want you

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Speaker 1: to take a listen to this Oh love Jews christ

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Speaker 1: Walmart on the flock. Yeah, he just heard, uh not

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Speaker 1: just natural sound, that sound of what happened in the

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Speaker 1: local Walmart. That was actually post on Facebook live as

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Speaker 1: it was happening. So not only did these perps, there's

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Speaker 1: really no other word for them stab the little girl

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Speaker 1: in Walmart. They posted it and the way they talked

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Speaker 1: about her, We just stabbed that. And I'm just gonna

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Speaker 1: say it like I would have to tell a jury,

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Speaker 1: we just stabbed that bitch in her heart. We don't

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Speaker 1: give a a little fifteen year old girl with me

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Speaker 1: an All Star panel. Stephanie Pogonis, reporter Fox Business and

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Speaker 1: Fox News. Phil Chalmer's true crime writer, counter homicide trainer,

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Speaker 1: author of Inside the Mind of a Teen Killer and

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Speaker 1: The Teen Killer Whisperer. Doctor Tim Gallagher, the medical examiner

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Speaker 1: for the State of Florida at pathcaremad dot com. Robert Crispin,

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Speaker 1: private eye, longtime in law enforcement, now runs Crispin Investigations

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Speaker 1: dot com. Doctor Jen host of Couples Therapy VH one,

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Speaker 1: the Doctor Jin Show series XIM and author of the

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Speaker 1: Relationship Fixed on Amazon. Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor, author I've

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Speaker 1: Read Flags and host of today with doctor Wendy on

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Speaker 1: KC BQ. You can find her at Wendy Patrick PhD

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Speaker 1: dot com. But first I want to go to our

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Speaker 1: very special guest, and that is the grandmother of Melanie Lyons,

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Speaker 1: just fifteen years old, missy Alanda Lamonia, ma'am, thank you

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Speaker 1: for being with us, Miss Lamonia. I'm just imagining you

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Speaker 1: on the front road. Behind me is I'm giving an

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Speaker 1: opening statement to a jury. And it hurts me that

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Speaker 1: you heard those girls running out of Walmar talking that

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Speaker 1: way about your granddaughter. And I felt much the same

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Speaker 1: way when I went to the murder trial when my

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Speaker 1: fiancee was murdered and I saw the way that people

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Speaker 1: were handling his bloody clothes. They meant so much to

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Speaker 1: me and they meant so little to them. When you

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Speaker 1: hear that audio footage, what, Miss Lamonia, what goes through

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Speaker 1: your mind? Hurt? Pain, unimaginable pain, hurt. This is my

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Speaker 1: first time hearing it. Bill betrayal. I can't even explain.

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Speaker 1: It also hurts me, miss Yolanda, because they don't seem

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Speaker 1: to have any remorse. They're not upset at all. They're almost,

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Speaker 1: well not almost, they're gleeful, a bunch of paintings. Tell

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Speaker 1: me something I want to hear about Melanie in life.

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Speaker 1: Tell me about her as a girl, because she just

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Speaker 1: I know, she loved riding horses, she loved music. I

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Speaker 1: know a lot about her, but I want to know more. Melanie.

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Speaker 1: Her fath course was January twenty seven oh six. Melanie

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Speaker 1: is the second daughter of my son Diedrick Lines. Melanie

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Speaker 1: lived in Late Charles but my son and her mother

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Speaker 1: had John Carson John Classidy. Of course, my son being disabled,

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Speaker 1: I disabled veteran PDSDS lived with me and so Melanie

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Speaker 1: spot lots of time time here in what we call

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Speaker 1: the country. The country is a little area outside the

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Speaker 1: city Donald Gravel Road where you can find horses walking

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Speaker 1: into front yard. You have chickens, you have goats, you

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Speaker 1: have ducks and I mean everything. She stays together like

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Speaker 1: one little family. Well this is what Melanie enjoyment was.

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Speaker 1: She would get up in the morning, of course, and

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Speaker 1: her things to jump on, get on a pair of

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Speaker 1: boots on matter if it was my carboard boots, her

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Speaker 1: grandfather carboard boots, any boots she's available, she gets on.

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Speaker 1: The ranger was custo lot utunity vehicle or the four roll.

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Speaker 1: Is she going to back and should feed the animals.

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Speaker 1: It was her day all day. She rides back and

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Speaker 1: forth on the range and outside in the pasture with

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Speaker 1: the animals. And this was melanie routine every day when

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Speaker 1: she was here in the country. Of course, Melanie was

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Speaker 1: kind of quiet, on the quiet side of reserved, very compassionate.

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Speaker 1: She didn't talk very much and she was able to

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Speaker 1: get her point across. Melanie. She was very attached to

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Speaker 1: her grandmother, and it's like she wanted to be a grandmother.

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Speaker 1: It's like she's seen herself. I mean, I'd also seen

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Speaker 1: myself and her. She U wouldn't mingle much. She came

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Speaker 1: to live with me, went to schooling Welsh Louisiana. When

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Speaker 1: she reached the age of unhen she was in sixth grade.

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Speaker 1: Melanie enjoyed school here. She enjoyed riding the bus because

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Speaker 1: she was used to riding the bus, drop off on

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Speaker 1: the grab the road. She would get off and immediately

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Speaker 1: coming the house and take I read that all school

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Speaker 1: clothes off, change out and get on her pro carboy

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Speaker 1: buns belt booker. I mean, she was on top of

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Speaker 1: the world. This was her one day two weeks after

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Speaker 1: she started schooling. Welch. She came home, she's she had

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Speaker 1: a little tide bear in her hand. She had a

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Speaker 1: little note in her hand, and I come in. She said,

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Speaker 1: my mom, this is for you. I say, what do

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Speaker 1: you mean? This is for me? I say, what is it?

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Speaker 1: She said, here? And I received the tedded bear former

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Speaker 1: and I opened a little note. But that is dear Melanie.

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Speaker 1: I love you? Do you love me? This my number?

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Speaker 1: Call me after homework. And I said, well, Melanie, come back.

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Speaker 1: This is a little boy, right. I wanted that, my

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Speaker 1: little boy. Hen So I took it and I put

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Speaker 1: it on the shelf in the little room and I

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Speaker 1: left it there just to see him. Charlie see what

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Speaker 1: she was gonna go back and read it. I go

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Speaker 1: back and take it and called a number and sit

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Speaker 1: there and sit there for months until one of my

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Speaker 1: little grandsons came and he decided he wanted to take

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Speaker 1: the head off whatever he's playing with it. He wanted

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Speaker 1: to open it for candy and it. But Melanie, I've

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Speaker 1: never heard of race a voice. Even when I correct

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Speaker 1: one things, Melanie never fasst back. She never had anything

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Speaker 1: to say. And when she did something wrong, and I

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Speaker 1: would raise my boys. She would never cry, but there's

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Speaker 1: always a little till. And in return she would come

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Speaker 1: and she would either geta a little piece of king,

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Speaker 1: or give my grass for water, picks me some my

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Speaker 1: favorite coup later or something and bring it to me

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Speaker 1: because she realized that she hurt my mom feelings. Melanie, Um,

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Speaker 1: of course you got. We went on through the year.

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Speaker 1: She ended up going back home. Her mom wanted her

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Speaker 1: to come and stay, and I asked her a year

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Speaker 1: after she stayed with her mom, can she come back?

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Speaker 1: A little boy came when he want the oldest son.

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Speaker 1: He wants to come back and stay of the country.

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Speaker 1: And I said, well, Melody, what do you want to do?

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Speaker 1: I say, Melody, do you want to come back and stay?

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Speaker 1: She said, but I do m I said, well, a Melody,

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Speaker 1: you can play sports. And then we got sports and

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Speaker 1: things to go on. She did on more. I just

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Speaker 1: wanted to be to be out there and just be

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Speaker 1: I in the country, she said. I want to drive.

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Speaker 1: And then because we had a little range is more

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Speaker 1: like a little car, he said, I just want to

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Speaker 1: be out there in the country, and I just want

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Speaker 1: to drive and just be out here, I said, Melanie

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Speaker 1: got little things for little girls to do. They have

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Speaker 1: little dances, they have look things to me to go too.

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Speaker 1: Of course you would go to the movies, but her

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Speaker 1: grandfather and I would take them to the movies, and

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Speaker 1: we would bring them to the movies and and we

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Speaker 1: would go shit way in the top because in the

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Speaker 1: movies they kick in the back of the chair. Is

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Speaker 1: no peace with them, the kids going to be kids.

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Speaker 1: But Melanie never got into any she went to school,

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Speaker 1: she never got into anything. Never had to be in

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Speaker 1: the sons of the authors or no notes from home

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Speaker 1: like the kids or anything. She was just a little

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Speaker 1: choir reserve, nor melonie loving little Melanie climb stories with

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Speaker 1: Nancy Grace, guys with me as our very special guest,

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Speaker 1: as Yolanda Lamonia, Miss Lamonia, as Melanie Lion's grandma. And

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Speaker 1: when you talked about the gravel road, it reminded me

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Speaker 1: of the dirt road, the red dirt road I grew

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Speaker 1: up on. And the way you're describing Melanie, you know,

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Speaker 1: with horses and chickens, and we didn't think anything about

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Speaker 1: singing a chicken in somebody's yard. And I mean that's

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Speaker 1: just the way we grew up. And now you know,

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Speaker 1: if city residents saw a chicken in somebody's yard did

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Speaker 1: do a backflip, you know, they they just don't get

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Speaker 1: it right. And the way you're describing Melanie just reminds

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Speaker 1: me so much of Lucy, my little girl. She brought

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Speaker 1: home a note from some little boy said the same thing,

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Speaker 1: I love you? Do you love me? Chick? Yes? No.

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Speaker 1: She folded it up and put it away, and she's

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Speaker 1: never never looked at it again. It just reminded me

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Speaker 1: so much of her, and my grandmother, who I also

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Speaker 1: called Mama, helped raise us. My grandmother Lucy that I'm

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Speaker 1: named my daughter after. And so the things you're telling

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Speaker 1: me just sound like a wonderful childhood, just idealic and

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Speaker 1: it just doesn't jive Miss Lammonia with what happened to her.

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Speaker 1: I just who were these horrible girls that chased her?

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Speaker 1: I don't mean their names. I know their names. I'm

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Speaker 1: not going to say them because they're juveniles. But who

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Speaker 1: were they to Melanie? Were they in the same class,

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Speaker 1: the same school? Why did they hate Melanie? I have

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Speaker 1: no answers for that. I know Melanie doing to hurt Melanie.

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Speaker 1: I don't mind the steady Melanie. You really know, there

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Speaker 1: was more or less on prints with Melanie's a little

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Speaker 1: sister and in the past, Melanie a little sister in

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Speaker 1: one of these girls, I'm gonna call it a perpetrator

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Speaker 1: had under the altercation. It wasn't physical, but Melanie's mom

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Speaker 1: went to go like a mother and discuss the altercation

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Speaker 1: with the other momm Well, okay, the perpetrator's mom decides

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Speaker 1: she wants to get physical. So Melanie's mom tols and

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Speaker 1: they went on back home and they tried to resolved

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Speaker 1: they see them, but he couldn't resolve it. So this

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Speaker 1: had been an ongoing little dispute. Was the hurricane and

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Speaker 1: the pandemic can all come into it. I kind of lost.

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Speaker 1: I'm with Melanie. She wasn't coming as much because my

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Speaker 1: arm had my husband and all, and then social distances

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Speaker 1: and this pandemic had everything was just an uproar. So

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Speaker 1: Melanie was there, so it was only communicate through phone

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Speaker 1: and texts. Well, when the hurricane came to Louisiana and

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Speaker 1: then the second hurricane they had, Melanie and her family

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Speaker 1: become displaced. So Melanie went through New Orleans and from

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Speaker 1: New Orleans they end up in Dallas. So when I

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Speaker 1: heard back from Melanie, she was in Dallas, and so,

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Speaker 1: being that wasn't communicate only through phone and text, Melanie

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Speaker 1: called me on her birthday and she was like, my mom,

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Speaker 1: where are you doing? I say, where are you being?

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Speaker 1: She says my birthday? And I was like, oh my, Melanie,

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Speaker 1: I know it's your birthday. Really who does that? And

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Speaker 1: she started to assen and and I was like, she said,

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Speaker 1: I said, what are you going to do? She's like,

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Speaker 1: I'm mother the movies. I say, well, Melanie, who are

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Speaker 1: going to the movies? She said all of us? And

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Speaker 1: I was like, yeah, but you better be careful because

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Speaker 1: they got the pandemic out there. To make sure y'all.

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Speaker 1: I wear y'all a mask because I said kids were

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Speaker 1: spreading the virus. And she just laughed and she's like,

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Speaker 1: oh wppo. I said, he's right here. She said tell

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Speaker 1: him I love your mama. I love you too, and

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Speaker 1: she moves a little kids and she hung up in

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Speaker 1: My husband and how I'll be continued out doing we

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Speaker 1: had to do. We had to go make sure, we

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Speaker 1: gonna shoot and do other things. It's some Hartsteed and

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Speaker 1: I got a call back about about an hour or

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Speaker 1: two later and it was from Nelande's lam and she

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Speaker 1: was faked mister Lane because he called me miss Lamb.

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Speaker 1: Melanie just got stabbed at Walmart. Ilanie got stamped at Walmart.

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Speaker 1: I think that, I said, when anotherane got stabbed at Walmart.

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Speaker 1: Mother is at the movies. She said, when she got

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Speaker 1: stabbed at Mommart. And they're bringing into the hospital. So

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Speaker 1: I who up the phone. I started putting my clothes

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Speaker 1: on and everything, and I told my husband's life Anoanie

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Speaker 1: got a stabbed. I don't know how serious it is,

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Speaker 1: but we need to go to the hospital. So by

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Speaker 1: time I got out to sell, let me call her

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Speaker 1: back to mom back. So I called him mom back

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Speaker 1: and I was like, well anything, how she she said,

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Speaker 1: like it's serious. They told me they don't want him

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Speaker 1: in the back. They just told me that they're working

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Speaker 1: on a like working on a tub. Look at my

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Speaker 1: husband and that Needately, I turned a television on when

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Speaker 1: I had the news flash homicide at high Highway fourteen

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Speaker 1: and late Chaws Walmart. Look at my husband's life homicide.

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Speaker 1: I called Melanie my back and she said, yes, she's gone.

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Speaker 1: They chilled my baby on her birthday I just went

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Speaker 1: to pieces. It's just unbelievable because I just spoke with Melanie.

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Speaker 1: Half of was she went to the movies. She got

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Speaker 1: to the movies. The Little Sister. They paid to for

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Speaker 1: the movies. They paid their fee for the movies. They

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Speaker 1: they see that a Marble Girls was there up, which

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Speaker 1: Melanie really didn't know the girls marb was there. They started,

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Speaker 1: Let's run, Let's go, let's go, Let's go where they

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Speaker 1: got light at. So when they come outside, they went

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Speaker 1: to the Let's go to Walmart, so they ran to Walmart.

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Speaker 1: So of course when they got in Walmart, Melanie went on.

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Speaker 1: She was in Walmart with on the birthday fees and

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Speaker 1: her movie fees and her birthday money. She proceeds buy

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Speaker 1: can and buy things in the Walmart. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: We're transpired. After that, I don't know. I didn't see

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Speaker 1: any of the videos. I was able to refuse to

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Speaker 1: see any of them. My daughter in Melanie's aunt and

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Speaker 1: uncles was playing a video in the house where I

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Speaker 1: can hear him. The only thing that I heard on

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Speaker 1: the video was Melanie's screamed. She say, I'm believing I

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Speaker 1: did hear that part and that it's all of her.

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Speaker 1: I didn't see anything or anything in I don't understand.

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Speaker 1: I couldn't figure out wherever it's everybody in Walmart? What's

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Speaker 1: the shoppers, where's the security? Then I started heard he

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Speaker 1: advent in pieces of a story like the little girl's

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Speaker 1: in a warm or they charged their cell phones. They

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Speaker 1: communicate on the cellphones like walking talking and it's just

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Speaker 1: the only without and retreat the knife and to feel

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Speaker 1: the need to she need the in Melody's life. And

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Speaker 1: two days later after this, three days later, my daughter

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Speaker 1: went in over to Melody's mom my things over to

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Speaker 1: try to comfort her and the little sisters. That and Breton,

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Speaker 1: I need to talk to you, he told Breton. She says,

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Speaker 1: and any the girls didn't come to fight. Melody came

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Speaker 1: to fight me. Melodie didn't know. So you're telling me

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Speaker 1: these girls twelve thirteen and fourteen or after Melanie's little sister,

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Speaker 1: I would I understand, and back when the mother, when

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Speaker 1: the mother went to the accusers how to try to

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Speaker 1: resolve the matter. Melody at that time was hearing and

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Speaker 1: like I say, the country with me, Miss Lamanna. Since

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Speaker 1: the time of her death after the Walmart attack, what

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Speaker 1: has been going through your mind. M let's just try

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Speaker 1: to trying to process it, um, trying to figure out

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Speaker 1: how can a thirteen year old have so much anger,

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Speaker 1: so much anger to still the need to use a

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Speaker 1: knife to end someone else's life. As I was getting pieces,

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Speaker 1: they was telling me the video on you know the

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Speaker 1: language they was using Melanie, I've never heard Melanie used

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Speaker 1: that type language at all. Like I said, he really

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Speaker 1: spoke and for them the approach Melody with that type language.

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Speaker 1: I mean, Melanie was scared and she knew being as

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Speaker 1: she ran for Walmart at that time. They didn't come

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Speaker 1: to shake her head nor hookah. It was kind of

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Speaker 1: with something else in your mind, and she had to

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Speaker 1: prepare herself. Do you feel that Melanie has tried to

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Speaker 1: contact you or give you peace after her death? A

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Speaker 1: sign peace? I do have peace with it. I lost

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Speaker 1: our daughter at eight years old. Her name was Delane

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Speaker 1: Nicole Lines. Melanie name is Melanie's Delane Lines. And I

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Speaker 1: feel like Molie was here God gave her to me.

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Speaker 1: Paul Walt, I love her, but he loved the victor

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Speaker 1: he loved the most. And I feel like she's in

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Speaker 1: a better place than a better Farty and I I've

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Speaker 1: confident no one because she left me with fond memories,

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Speaker 1: I'd be able to go on. What do you think,

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Speaker 1: Miss Lamonia, should happen to these girls their ages twelve, thirteen,

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Speaker 1: thirteen and fourteen. I feel less though, I mean, I

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Speaker 1: know what the doing off systems. It's to the age

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Speaker 1: of twenty one, and all of them in coming together

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Speaker 1: will only be a matter of seventy years. And even

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Speaker 1: with that, they have like um programs in place where

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Speaker 1: they can go through the programs and get out on

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Speaker 1: good behavior. Per se. I feel like a perpetrator should

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Speaker 1: spend every day for a juvenile sentence in the juveniles

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Speaker 1: to teaching facility by herself with the Bible and a

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Speaker 1: picture melody. Amen to that, Miss Slammonia. What is your message,

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Speaker 1: Miss Slammonia, to other parents, to me, I'm a parent

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Speaker 1: of two thirteen year old children, a message not only

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Speaker 1: to the parents or to the community that I stand

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Speaker 1: firm as well as open minded to any steps in

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Speaker 1: the community as a whole to take back on you.

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Speaker 1: It's time It's time to go in. Open those cell phones,

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Speaker 1: look at those clausets, pull up those natresses, look in

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Speaker 1: the shoe boxes, it's time to get involved and take

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Speaker 1: back all kids and our youth. So I would hate

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Speaker 1: to see another Melonie. The meteor is raising the kids

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Speaker 1: hard to take them back. Miss Ammonia. Please know that

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Speaker 1: ever since I heard about Melanie Delna, I heard about you,

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Speaker 1: You've been mentioned and every time she's mentioned in your

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Speaker 1: connection to her is so strong. So many people, including

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Speaker 1: myself and my family, I've been praying about you and

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Speaker 1: about Melanie. I just know that for what bit of

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Speaker 1: encouragement it is deep in prayer for her family, including you.

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Speaker 1: Climb stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we were talking about

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Speaker 1: the death of just a beautiful young girl. Her name

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Speaker 1: Melanie Delightne Alliance as you heard, raised up in the country,

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Speaker 1: and as soon as she was in big city living,

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Speaker 1: everything went sideways in the worst way. Take a listen

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Speaker 1: to this, mohamma anyhow, and I don't give really got

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Speaker 1: Wait if he killed killed, did she killed she kill nobody?

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Speaker 1: If she killed she kill the beach, Oh no she

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Speaker 1: did not. We means they knew it. But but yeah,

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Speaker 1: we're sorry. We're sorry for saying everything. Girl, yah know,

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Speaker 1: I mean say ya know, we're not getting my wife.

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Speaker 1: I just start going off, but I'm just saying, yeah, sorry, Yeah.

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Speaker 1: We saw women say Aali. We apologized, Yeah, I told him,

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Speaker 1: We're sorry. But then they go on to say, just

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Speaker 1: stabbed somebody at Walmart. We just stadd that bcch in

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Speaker 1: her heart and we don't give an f It goes

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Speaker 1: on and on and on, and what you're hearing is

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Speaker 1: later postings after the stabbing photos video continuing to be

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Speaker 1: posted straight out to Stephanie Pogona's digital reporter, Fox Business

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Speaker 1: and Fox News. Stephanie, first of all, to you and

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Speaker 1: the rest of the panel, I want to thank you

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Speaker 1: for being with us and waiting until I finished speaking

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Speaker 1: with the grandma and Slimonia because I didn't want her

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Speaker 1: to hear everything that we were going to talk about

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Speaker 1: and it would make her hurt even more. So thank

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Speaker 1: you for being so gracious, Stephanie, And to the rest

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Speaker 1: of you. Stephanie, what's happening to the four girls and

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Speaker 1: if you could tell us what you know went down

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Speaker 1: that night? Absolutely, it's so like you said, and like

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Speaker 1: miss Lamonia said, there was a fight at a movie theater.

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Speaker 1: It seemed to continue to the lake Charles Walmart. As

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Speaker 1: you can hear in that awful, heartbreaking video fight breaks out.

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Speaker 1: These four girls, not all of them are even teenagers.

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Speaker 1: One is a preteen twelve years old. They allegedly begin

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Speaker 1: to attack this fifteen year old victim, Melanie, with might

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Speaker 1: I add, a weapon that appears to have been stolen

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Speaker 1: from the Walmart according to police, and then they seemed

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Speaker 1: to go on and brag about it in video. So

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Speaker 1: I was just speaking with the Sheriff's office this morning,

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Speaker 1: and they will not tell me because of these four

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Speaker 1: perpetrators ages whether they are still in custody. They also

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Speaker 1: will not share with me whether any of these girls

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Speaker 1: have a criminal history, but I will say that within

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Speaker 1: I believe it was three hours of this stabbing in

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Speaker 1: the Walmart, police had already identified at least one of

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Speaker 1: the suspects, had her name, had her photograph, and they

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Speaker 1: so far have really attributed that to the social media activity.

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Speaker 1: You know, if they were adults, Wendy Patrick, I would say,

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Speaker 1: what a bunch of idjits for posting their crimes online.

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Speaker 1: But these are not adults. I know for a fact.

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Speaker 1: The two thirteen year olds, one of them charged with

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Speaker 1: the actual martyr wielding the knife, and the fourteen year

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Speaker 1: old can be tried as adults, and I'm not sure

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Speaker 1: in that jurisdiction whether the twelve year old cannot be

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Speaker 1: tried as an adult. That would mean most jurisdictions is

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Speaker 1: that they would be tried for murder as a group,

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Speaker 1: all for one and one for all. They would serve

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Speaker 1: eighteen to twenty one and give jail, then they'd be

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Speaker 1: transferred to adult jail. What do you think is going

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Speaker 1: to happen, Wendy Patrick, Yeah, you know, you chewed it

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Speaker 1: up to exactly right. Those are the issues that of

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Speaker 1: court's going to look at it with respect to what's

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00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:24,560
Speaker 1: going to happen to these kids. There will be much

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00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:28,000
Speaker 1: made of the reality that they actually, as Miss Lamonius said,

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Speaker 1: they appeared to be raised by the social media, and

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Speaker 1: one wonders whether that desensitization will be raised by the

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Speaker 1: defense as some sort of a mitigant to their behavior.

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Speaker 1: On the other hand, that you and I as prosecutors

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Speaker 1: could see how the bragging afterwards being a sign at

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Speaker 1: the time might exactly be the type of aggravan that

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Speaker 1: might lead a you know them, to argue in court

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Speaker 1: that these girls knew exactly what they were doing and

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Speaker 1: therefore should be charged as adults if, as you say,

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Speaker 1: that's permissible in the jurisdiction. So I think it both ways.

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Speaker 1: That horrific video that they made afterwards bragging about the crime,

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Speaker 1: joining me doctor Tim Gallagher Medical exam or the State

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Speaker 1: off Florida at PATHCAREMD dot com dotor Gallagher. As I recall,

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Speaker 1: the little girl was stabbed in the upper torso possibly

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Speaker 1: the neck. Would she have even been alive at the

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Speaker 1: time she got to the hospital or would this have

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Speaker 1: been a sudden death? Well, it certainly a difficult to knowing.

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Speaker 1: It may have actually been closer to the heart. Jackie's

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Speaker 1: telling me brick, yes, go ahead right. It's actually without

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Speaker 1: exact details on where she was stabbed and what organs

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Speaker 1: were injured, is difficult to say. If she was stabbed

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Speaker 1: in her lung for instant that that lung cavity would

425
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:50,160
Speaker 1: begin to fill up with blood, but she would have

426
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:53,920
Speaker 1: the use of her other lung which would prolong her life.

427
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:56,760
Speaker 1: So if she was just stabbed in the lung, then yes,

428
00:30:56,840 --> 00:30:59,400
Speaker 1: it would be very reasonable to expect that she was

429
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:02,680
Speaker 1: alive when she went to the hospital. If she was

430
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:07,720
Speaker 1: stabbed directly in the heart, no chances are she would

431
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:15,040
Speaker 1: have desanguinated or bled out probably within thirty seconds or

432
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:17,760
Speaker 1: or certainly less than a minute, you know. But one

433
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:19,440
Speaker 1: point that I do want to make you know, while

434
00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:21,920
Speaker 1: we do have the listeners that you know again that

435
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:26,920
Speaker 1: we we criticize Walmart and Target, you know, for coming

436
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:30,080
Speaker 1: into our neighborhoods and kind of taking over, but a

437
00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:33,720
Speaker 1: lot of crimes have been solved by the video surveillance

438
00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:36,440
Speaker 1: cameras that they have, and we see that in our

439
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:42,120
Speaker 1: office quite often, that suspects are caught quite readily, quite

440
00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 1: frequently and quite h quite vast because of the video

441
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:52,200
Speaker 1: surveillance cameras that these superstores used, you know, and we

442
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:54,640
Speaker 1: are we have access to that, and then we can

443
00:31:54,680 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 1: actually corroborate the injuries, who did what At the time,

444
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:03,640
Speaker 1: I'm of autopsy, so I just want to comment on

445
00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 1: their good, high quality surveillance systems that they use in

446
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:12,160
Speaker 1: capturing these suspects. I said a million times, Doctor Gallagher

447
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:15,760
Speaker 1: that NASA could take hints from Target and Walmart regarding

448
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:20,280
Speaker 1: their video. You're absolutely correct, and that was the case

449
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:24,240
Speaker 1: here as well, and also thanks to them posting it online.

450
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:27,840
Speaker 1: Doctor jen Man, you can find her not only on

451
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:31,320
Speaker 1: serious except she's also the author of Relationship Fixed on Amazon.

452
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:34,560
Speaker 1: Doctor jan I'm just thinking about this girl who was

453
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:36,960
Speaker 1: really not even a part of this fight. It was

454
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 1: they were coming after the little sister, according to the grandmother,

455
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:45,280
Speaker 1: and what she went through. She's unarmed in a walmart,

456
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:49,120
Speaker 1: there's nobody around to help, and she's lying there on

457
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:54,680
Speaker 1: the floor, attacked by this girl gang twelve, thirteen, thirteen,

458
00:32:54,680 --> 00:33:00,880
Speaker 1: and fourteen years old. And they sound wild old. They

459
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:06,360
Speaker 1: just sound wild, almost gleeful. I think one of the

460
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:09,120
Speaker 1: things that stands out to me. And you know, this

461
00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:13,720
Speaker 1: poor girl's grandmother, you know, you can just hear this

462
00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:17,880
Speaker 1: sorrow at the heartbreak in her voice, and she said,

463
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:21,080
Speaker 1: you know, where did the anger come from? With these girls?

464
00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:23,840
Speaker 1: To me as a therapist, it's not just where did

465
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:26,040
Speaker 1: the anger come from, but where did the lack of

466
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:30,400
Speaker 1: a conscience come from? And typically that comes from one

467
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:33,520
Speaker 1: of two places. It's either nature or nurtured. You know,

468
00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:37,000
Speaker 1: there are these rare cases where someone is just born

469
00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:41,600
Speaker 1: without a conscience, but that's highly, highly unusual, and that

470
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:46,000
Speaker 1: this group of girls all found each other. What it

471
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:48,840
Speaker 1: makes me wonder is what in the world was going

472
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:53,000
Speaker 1: on at home? Because we are typically born with empathy.

473
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 1: We are born with an understanding of when we inflict pain,

474
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:01,240
Speaker 1: what that pain feels like for another person. But what

475
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:04,240
Speaker 1: stands out to me as a therapist is this group

476
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:09,759
Speaker 1: of girls. These young girls have no conscience, have no empathy,

477
00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:23,840
Speaker 1: and that is quite shocking. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

478
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:29,320
Speaker 1: to Phil Schalmer is true crime writer or counter homicide trainer,

479
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:33,520
Speaker 1: or criminal profiler and author of Inside the Mind of

480
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:39,200
Speaker 1: a Teen Killer and The Team Killer Whisperer on Amazon. Phil,

481
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:40,680
Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. I want to hear

482
00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:43,920
Speaker 1: your thoughts on this. Sure. Wow, it's first of all,

483
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:47,520
Speaker 1: it's sad, and I appreciate having the victim's family own

484
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:49,880
Speaker 1: because that keeps us centered on why we all do

485
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:53,360
Speaker 1: what we do. This is not just about cases and crimes.

486
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:56,400
Speaker 1: It's about hurting families, and that's why I do what

487
00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:59,920
Speaker 1: I do. My top two causes of why kids kill,

488
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:03,080
Speaker 1: you know doing this for thirty five years is there's

489
00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:07,120
Speaker 1: two things no father, the fatherless home and an unstable home.

490
00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:10,280
Speaker 1: And as the last guest just said, I think there's

491
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:12,040
Speaker 1: got to be something at home, and that's what the

492
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:15,439
Speaker 1: sheriff setting this press conference set. This starts at home,

493
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:17,600
Speaker 1: and we all as a community. They've had like multiple

494
00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:20,800
Speaker 1: team murders there in the last few months in that county.

495
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:23,680
Speaker 1: And it starts at home. And so that's what we're doing,

496
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:25,600
Speaker 1: trying to trying to do this work to trying to

497
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:30,560
Speaker 1: get parents to get more involved in mister. Of course

498
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:36,720
Speaker 1: people learn behavior at home. But um, I guess the

499
00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:40,440
Speaker 1: divorce stats are over fifty percent of American marriages and

500
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:47,040
Speaker 1: a divorce, So the number of abused children as skyrocketed.

501
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:54,439
Speaker 1: But those children are not committing teen murders. These are

502
00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:58,120
Speaker 1: so I think you can blame mommy and daddy just

503
00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:03,600
Speaker 1: so far. I mean, the first thing out of your mouth, Chalmers,

504
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:08,080
Speaker 1: is home. Yeah, of course behavior is learned at home,

505
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:12,520
Speaker 1: but not stabbing somebody dead in the aisle of the walmart.

506
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:15,360
Speaker 1: You don't learn that at home. It is it's shocking,

507
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 1: and you know it takes a multiple causes contribute to this,

508
00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:22,319
Speaker 1: but it does start at home. And you know, a

509
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:25,319
Speaker 1: kid raising a good home usually doesn't end up in

510
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:27,960
Speaker 1: this situation. But you're you're right. I mean I was

511
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:30,240
Speaker 1: raising an abuse at home as well, and I turned

512
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:32,800
Speaker 1: out to be a law abiding citizen. So that happens

513
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:36,360
Speaker 1: a lot. But if you have enough of these contributing factors,

514
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:39,320
Speaker 1: you can head down this way and this is a

515
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:43,600
Speaker 1: very violent generation. Fiveteen murders a day every day in

516
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:46,319
Speaker 1: this country, and you know we have to do a

517
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:49,520
Speaker 1: better job at trying to prevent these crimes. To Robert Crispin,

518
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:51,840
Speaker 1: private eye, former law enforcement, you can find him at

519
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:58,080
Speaker 1: Crispin's Investigations dot com. Robert, you were a law enforcement

520
00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:02,080
Speaker 1: before you became a PI, and during your time as

521
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:06,920
Speaker 1: law enforcement, you saw a lot of juvenile crime. Sometimes

522
00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:10,640
Speaker 1: I have argued to juries that juvenile felons are even

523
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:14,080
Speaker 1: worse than adult felons because they haven't even formed a

524
00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:20,640
Speaker 1: conscious yet. They don't completely grasp how awful what they're

525
00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:26,239
Speaker 1: doing is. Like an adult would have some awareness that

526
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:28,480
Speaker 1: they could get the death penalty or go to jail

527
00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:31,400
Speaker 1: for the rest of their life. They're taking another human's

528
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:36,640
Speaker 1: life away. They're causing intense pain and awake of suffering.

529
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:40,319
Speaker 1: An adult may have an inkling of all that at

530
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:43,480
Speaker 1: the time of a murder or before a murder, but juveniles,

531
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:47,719
Speaker 1: they're invincible. They don't get it. So sometimes I think

532
00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:51,400
Speaker 1: that makes them even more dangerous. It does, and some

533
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:55,000
Speaker 1: of the issues is in some of these video games.

534
00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:57,880
Speaker 1: Believe it or not, these video games that these juveniles

535
00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:02,719
Speaker 1: are playing glorified killing, well by shooting people in the head.

536
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:06,359
Speaker 1: Any type of video games that are out there, not

537
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:08,160
Speaker 1: up to speed on a whole bunch of them. But

538
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:11,560
Speaker 1: there's a lot of video games out there that parents

539
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:15,360
Speaker 1: don't even want their kids playing because they glorify homicide,

540
00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:18,080
Speaker 1: They glorify beating people up. These kids don't have a

541
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:21,080
Speaker 1: perception of what reality is and they don't realize that,

542
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:23,800
Speaker 1: you know, walking in and stabbing someone in the heart

543
00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:27,200
Speaker 1: is putting them in prison. They don't realize that it's

544
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:32,640
Speaker 1: ending their life, and they don't realize the traumatic you know,

545
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:35,640
Speaker 1: things that are happening to their families. It's over and

546
00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:38,680
Speaker 1: it's all because they think it's reality because they see

547
00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:40,680
Speaker 1: it on video games. They see it with all their

548
00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:44,200
Speaker 1: friends talking about it, not realizing what the ramifications are

549
00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:47,319
Speaker 1: of all this. Do you agree with that, Phil Chalmers, Oh,

550
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:51,120
Speaker 1: definitely do. It's video games, but it's it's the entire

551
00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:53,160
Speaker 1: I was telling you that, not who I'm going to

552
00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:56,000
Speaker 1: ensue that. It's the violent culture these kids live in.

553
00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:59,760
Speaker 1: The videos that they watch NonStop on YouTube of people

554
00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:03,640
Speaker 1: being assaulted and beaten and leaken. As you've heard, it's

555
00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:07,680
Speaker 1: the video games, it's the violent music videos. Listen, we

556
00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:12,640
Speaker 1: all grew up in a kinder, gentler time. The rape, torture,

557
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:15,520
Speaker 1: sodomy and murder that these kids are groping is unheard of.

558
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:19,319
Speaker 1: Does it affect all kids? Know? Doesn't affect some kids? Absolutely?

559
00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:23,000
Speaker 1: To Stephanie pegun as digital reporter, Fox Business and Fox News,

560
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:26,520
Speaker 1: Stephanie again, thank you for being with us, What's going

561
00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:29,680
Speaker 1: to happen to the purpse? So that's a good question,

562
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:34,240
Speaker 1: and it really depends on how the court system chooses

563
00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:39,200
Speaker 1: to go forward with these young women, especially considering their age.

564
00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:43,080
Speaker 1: Whether they're tried an adult court as adults were as juveniles,

565
00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:45,640
Speaker 1: it will make a world at difference in this case.

566
00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:49,480
Speaker 1: I believed Stephanie Paguna said, if they're tried as juveniles,

567
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:53,000
Speaker 1: I mean to max say, the very max I could

568
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:56,359
Speaker 1: get would be till they're twenty one, and of course

569
00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:59,080
Speaker 1: that would be seven years for the thirteen year old,

570
00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:03,360
Speaker 1: six years for the four no, eight years, then seven

571
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:06,920
Speaker 1: years and then for one nine years. I doubt they

572
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:09,879
Speaker 1: would even do that long. Another thing to consider here

573
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:12,440
Speaker 1: and a question that I don't have the answer to

574
00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:15,040
Speaker 1: But you've got to wonder is the criminal history that

575
00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:18,680
Speaker 1: any of these young girls have. The fact that and

576
00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:21,280
Speaker 1: I don't have an answer to this, but the fact

577
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:25,840
Speaker 1: that the police department knew one of these teenager's names

578
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:30,040
Speaker 1: before they even arrested her, it makes you wonder whether

579
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:32,480
Speaker 1: she did have a history, and if so, that could

580
00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:35,399
Speaker 1: contribute to any sort of discipline going Well, I can't

581
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:38,719
Speaker 1: guarantee you, Stephanie Pulgogness, your instinct is correct. There is

582
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:44,320
Speaker 1: no way in hubl that this is the very first

583
00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:47,840
Speaker 1: brush with the law for at least one of these girls.

584
00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:50,440
Speaker 1: You don't just go from reading a book in the

585
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:53,759
Speaker 1: library to stealing a knife off a display at Walmart

586
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:57,279
Speaker 1: and stabbing somebody dead. You don't go zero to one

587
00:40:57,360 --> 00:41:00,799
Speaker 1: hundred and ten. Nbah, just like that. You're right? Who

588
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:04,280
Speaker 1: did I hear jumping in? Was said Landy or doctor Jane?

589
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:07,719
Speaker 1: It was Landy? Go ahead, you know, Nancy, this case

590
00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:10,200
Speaker 1: is going to come down to a battle of the experts.

591
00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:12,799
Speaker 1: You are going to have a psychologist, like some of

592
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:15,120
Speaker 1: our illustrious guests here, that are going to be able

593
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:18,080
Speaker 1: to explain, well, this is why these girls didn't appreciate

594
00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:21,160
Speaker 1: the nature and the wrongfulness of their actions, and then

595
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:25,040
Speaker 1: the prosecution's going to bring their own psychologists or psychiatrist

596
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:28,879
Speaker 1: in to talk about brain development and how that would

597
00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:33,000
Speaker 1: have made them liable, even though even given their tender

598
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:37,920
Speaker 1: young ages, so much of what we've discussed, the video games,

599
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:40,640
Speaker 1: the culture, the reality that, as you say, you don't

600
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:43,640
Speaker 1: go from zero to eighty in a minute, all of

601
00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:46,400
Speaker 1: those types of things are going to be really put

602
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:49,440
Speaker 1: through a lens of brain development for a jury in

603
00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:52,879
Speaker 1: order to decide and to really understand how in the

604
00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:56,160
Speaker 1: world does the twelve or thirteen and fourteen year old

605
00:41:56,320 --> 00:42:00,840
Speaker 1: resort to this type of violence. We wait as justice

606
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:04,960
Speaker 1: sun falls. Nancy Gray's Crime Story, signing off Goodbye Friend,