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Speaker 1: And joining me now is the director of a film

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Speaker 1: that I have a feeling is going to become quite

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Speaker 1: famous here in the United States and is going to

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Speaker 1: become quite famous with anybody talking about the issues of

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Speaker 1: democracy and freedom authoritarianism. It is a documentary about George Orwell.

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Speaker 1: It's called two plus two equals five and it was

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Speaker 1: directed by Raoul Peck who joins me now. And Raoul

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Speaker 1: has a tremendous archive of terrific both films and documentaries,

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Speaker 1: and as I was saying to him earlier, there's essentially

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Speaker 1: as you many of my listeners know, I'm a huge

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Speaker 1: supporter of documentaries, been supporting Documentary Film Festival for shorts.

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Speaker 1: I think they've it's the new magazine piece what magazines

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Speaker 1: used to be. I think documentary shorts are replacing. But

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Speaker 1: sometimes you get a documentarian who's got some great journal

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Speaker 1: but probably needed a couple of.

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Speaker 2: Classes at film school. That is not the case with

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Speaker 2: two plus two equals five. This isn't a film, this

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Speaker 2: is art, this is cinema, and this is also a documentary.

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Speaker 2: Roll Peck joins me now, role it's a pleasure to

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Speaker 2: meet you.

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Speaker 3: Well, thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: So I could say that in some ways, you were

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Speaker 1: born to do these subject matters. To be born in

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Speaker 1: Haiti in the fifties, to be born in a country

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Speaker 1: that they were Colonialism and authoritarianism seem to be frequent

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Speaker 1: ills that make it very difficult. The fact that you

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Speaker 1: tackle topics like this, It feels like this is something

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Speaker 1: that you simply grew up ready to do. Am I

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Speaker 1: am I overstating things?

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Speaker 3: Well? In fact, the film came to me. It's an

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Speaker 3: offer from a universal ecutive and my friend Alex Gibney.

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Speaker 3: They had total access to all Well's body of work,

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Speaker 3: and as a filmmaker, this is not something you can

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Speaker 3: say no to, you know. And so I knew a

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Speaker 3: bit about all Well, like what we learn in school animal.

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Speaker 1: Farm, and.

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Speaker 3: So I knew that I could do something quite organic,

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Speaker 3: that you know, I would find myself into the subject.

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Speaker 3: But what I did not anticipate is that it would

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Speaker 3: become that antimate you know, politically amptimate, personally antimate, and

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Speaker 3: of course that my own history would play a part

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Speaker 3: in that.

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Speaker 1: I shouldn't be surprised that you picked the better word

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Speaker 1: to describe the feeling. Intimate is such a terrific description

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Speaker 1: of how I felt about it. It does it. It's big,

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Speaker 1: but it's small, right it is it is it is accessible.

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Speaker 3: Well, the the idea was again and and thank you

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Speaker 3: for the introduction about making the difference between you know,

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Speaker 3: journalism and filmmaking and documentary filmmaking. In France they use

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Speaker 3: the world the word creative.

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Speaker 4: Documentary was genuine, organic, historical you know documentary where people

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Speaker 4: would go somewhere for three years and make a film, uh,

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Speaker 4: you know, totally immersing themselves.

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Speaker 3: So I come more from that tradition.

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Speaker 1: Uh.

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Speaker 3: But but again it was important coming from a country

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Speaker 3: like Haiti, you know, where you somehow almost sensitive to

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Speaker 3: to the kind of you know, when power is starting

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Speaker 3: doing stuff that they're not supposed to do, you know.

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Speaker 3: And and and that's that felt very clearly alarming to

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Speaker 3: people like me, you know, or any person who grew

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Speaker 3: up in Latin America or in Africa. You know, we

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Speaker 3: we know the science yep. And And in the US,

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Speaker 3: unfortunately a lot of people are so convinced that the

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Speaker 3: democracy is so solid, you know, that they don't pay

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Speaker 3: as much attention to that it is.

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Speaker 1: This is a it happens all the time. It sometimes

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Speaker 1: takes an outsider to explain our explain ourselves to us.

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Speaker 1: I mean, one could argue it was a Frenchman one

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Speaker 1: hundred years ago, one hundred and forty years ago, with

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Speaker 1: democracy in America, who understood the power of our democracy

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Speaker 1: better than we did at the time. I mean to Tokolos,

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Speaker 1: to this day's it feels his analysis feels fresh. So

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Speaker 1: what I found obviously what made it. It's interesting you

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Speaker 1: said Alex Kidney came to you. I can't believe he

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Speaker 1: said he didn't want this for himself. Were you surprised?

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Speaker 3: No, you know, first of all, Alex have enough to do.

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Speaker 1: That's true. I just had him. I had him on here.

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Speaker 1: He did it. He is the only person that has

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Speaker 1: made campaign finance issues compelling filmmaking. I mean, he's very good.

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Speaker 3: Call Enron, you know, Wall Street or big money in

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Speaker 3: a way that you know, you really understand what he's

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Speaker 3: talking about. No, I think Alex was not that much.

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Speaker 3: In fact, his response to Johnny Fewings from Universal was,

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Speaker 3: you know, because they came to him as a producer, okay,

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Speaker 3: and and he say, well, if Raoul Pek is a director,

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Speaker 3: I will do it. And and that's how he you know,

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Speaker 3: he called me. He said yes without even asking me first.

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Speaker 3: But he knew I would go for it.

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Speaker 1: He already said yes. Yeah, by the way, round, I've

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Speaker 1: got a new project for you. Right, Oh, that's funny,

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Speaker 1: that's funny. Well, I tell you talking about a double

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Speaker 1: endorsement for someone like me Alex Gibne and you this

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Speaker 1: is this is uh you know you've got gold here.

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Speaker 3: Yes, no, and and with all well, we knew that

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Speaker 3: we would be in the middle of what is happening

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Speaker 3: right now in this country. And but also you know,

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Speaker 3: bear in mind that when I started writing about the

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Speaker 3: project and putting up we were still convinced that Kamala

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Speaker 3: Harris was going to become president.

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Speaker 1: Oh interesting, So because would this film not have been

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Speaker 1: released in Harris One?

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Speaker 3: Say it again?

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Speaker 1: Would you have released this film had Harris one?

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Speaker 2: Oh?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it would has been as important for me.

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Speaker 5: You know that That's the thing you know again, Uh,

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Speaker 5: my big problem with this old issue is that we

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Speaker 5: concentrate on President Trump as being of course it's it's

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Speaker 5: you know, nobody would have expect that democracy or a

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Speaker 5: semblance of democracy would go that far.

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Speaker 3: You know, all the rules would explode, that all the

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Speaker 3: you know, the bulwark you know, whether it's Congress, Justice Department, CIA, FBI,

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Speaker 3: you know, all those institutions that supposedly are there to

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Speaker 3: protect US and democracy, even though they didn't always regarding

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Speaker 3: countries like Haiti and all the places. But again for us,

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Speaker 3: when you come from abroad, from another continent, your relationship

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Speaker 3: with American democracy is at best bias. You know, when

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Speaker 3: I remember when I was a young boy, I never

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Speaker 3: could understand the dichotomy of a US president talking about freedom,

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Speaker 3: freedom of the press, freedom, you know, abas, corpus and

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Speaker 3: all those great democratic terms when they were supported supporting

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Speaker 3: dictatorship in my country, right, you know, so I grew

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Speaker 3: up the constructing that that she'sophrenic double language. So I

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Speaker 3: knew double speak before you know, I met Owell. Uh

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Speaker 3: you know, And and that's this thing that many countries

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Speaker 3: outside the United States have no difficulty understanding the contradiction

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Speaker 3: of the system itself. So or Weell goes at the

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Speaker 3: bottom of that. You know, he analyzed the whole metrics,

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Speaker 3: the whole system, the whole toolbox, and that is you know,

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Speaker 3: all his an important instrument to have to analyze what's

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Speaker 3: going on in your country.

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Speaker 1: Well, when you look at Orwell's past. I mean, here

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Speaker 1: he is in his you talk about that dichotomy of

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Speaker 1: the United States and then yet we support dictators in Haiti. Well,

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Speaker 1: it feels like that was a constant in the letters,

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Speaker 1: and this comes through in the letters that he sends

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Speaker 1: to both his wife and son. The contradiction of the

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Speaker 1: British with India, right, you know, being colonial at the

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Speaker 1: same time they wanted to be democratic, you know, and

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Speaker 1: that contradiction obviously inspired or Well and in some ways

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Speaker 1: it is what probably made you the perfect the perfect

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Speaker 1: curia for this. Well.

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Speaker 3: Indeed, you know what I thanksfully got very early in

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Speaker 3: the process is that I understood what it meant for

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Speaker 3: somebody like oh Well to go first of all, to

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Speaker 3: be born in Ninja because his father was a military

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Speaker 3: man in Ninja, so he got the air of another

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Speaker 3: place he got, you know, and it is a reason

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Speaker 3: also we can understand why at nineteen instead of going

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Speaker 3: to Cambridge or to Oxford, because he had finished his

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Speaker 3: study at Eton, you know the upscale, you know, you know,

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Speaker 3: Ivy League school, and he didn't go there but choose

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Speaker 3: to join the police in Burma, in Meyamah, you know,

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Speaker 3: so you can see there is a you know, a

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Speaker 3: will to go elsewhere, to discover something else, and there

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Speaker 3: is a sort of even something mentality. Of course, he

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Speaker 3: would realize very quickly that well, he's basically a policeman

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Speaker 3: in a colonial regime, and he went to write about

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Speaker 3: it in a time where you know, I would say,

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Speaker 3: the mainstream thinking was colonialism is totally normal. You know,

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Speaker 3: most Africa was still under colony in the in the thirties,

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Speaker 3: and the same Latin America were either colonized or on

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Speaker 3: the dictatorships.

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Speaker 1: You know, in the Middle East as well, was still

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Speaker 1: under some colonialism.

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Speaker 3: So for him to to write so sincerely, so transparently

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Speaker 3: about what he did as a policeman in in in

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Speaker 3: Burma is an incredible act of contrition, you know. And

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Speaker 3: and that closed him, uh, you know, brought him closer

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Speaker 3: to be somehow, and and I and I felt there

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Speaker 3: is a sort of confidence and and and you know,

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Speaker 3: you know, I I thought that his way of thinking,

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Speaker 3: you know, was much more closer to me than I

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Speaker 3: taught originally.

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Speaker 1: So you had the material is obviously the most important material.

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Speaker 1: And you I take it, were the letters correct?

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Speaker 3: Well, I use everything somehow, Sometimes it was just for

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Speaker 3: one little sentence, but I went. But the basis was

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Speaker 3: the essays why I write, which is, you know, an

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Speaker 3: essay that a magazine asked him to ask nine different

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Speaker 3: British writers to write about, you know, their writing, why

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Speaker 3: they are writing basically. And all El did something incredible

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Speaker 3: is really he dig He dug down deep, you know,

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Speaker 3: into his process and and the basis, you know, to

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Speaker 3: see you basically seeing the inspiration, the motivation, the very

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Speaker 3: intimate internal motivation for him to be as a writer,

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Speaker 3: and he analyzed it in a very candid and political

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Speaker 3: way as well. So that was the backbone of the

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Speaker 3: story I wanted to tell, you know, and again maybe

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Speaker 3: what you need to know is that I didn't just

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Speaker 3: plunge into such a story. I would have been totally

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Speaker 3: lost after a while because it's a lot of archive

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Speaker 3: and and writing. So I knew I had to choose

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Speaker 3: the men's story. And the man story for me was

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Speaker 3: all well in the last year of his life, struggling

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Speaker 3: to finish nineteen eighty four and not knowing that he

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Speaker 3: will be able to achieve it. You know, he's sake

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Speaker 3: of tuberculosis, He's in and out of sanatoriums and hospitals

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Speaker 3: and he's in a very bad shape. So for me,

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Speaker 3: that was the perfect dramatic storyline that then allows me

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Speaker 3: to go go everywhere else in his body of work

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Speaker 3: to add the layers.

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Speaker 1: So look, what I found interesting is you had archival footage,

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Speaker 1: you had news clips, you had movie clips, and did

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Speaker 1: you I thought you also had reenactments?

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Speaker 3: Correct, No, but I use a lot of graphic that

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Speaker 3: we design ourselves. No, in this particular film, we didn't

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Speaker 3: use reenactment.

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Speaker 1: Okay. The one place where I thought you might have

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Speaker 1: was during the Spanish Civil War that.

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Speaker 3: That was a clip. No, they were a clip of

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Speaker 3: ken Loach films, you know about the Spanish War. And no,

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Speaker 3: but we we No, we basically play sometimes with the photos.

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Speaker 3: But no, I did a lot of reenactment in my

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Speaker 3: previous film, Exterminate All the Roots. But again no, here

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Speaker 3: it was different, okay, and I use I mean that's

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Speaker 3: something I always did in my film because you know,

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Speaker 3: as a black person from Haidi, you know, we we

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Speaker 3: were absent from film history for a long time. So

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Speaker 3: in order to make historical film, I have to use

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Speaker 3: others material and I learned how to use it. I

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Speaker 3: learned to deconstruct before using it. And it's a matter

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Speaker 3: of you know what you choose exactly because you want to.

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Speaker 3: You know, that example of the photo in the film

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Speaker 3: with all well as a baby with the nanny. Why

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Speaker 3: this photo is so impactful for me because the nanny

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Speaker 3: is looking at the camera directly, and that creates a

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Speaker 3: totally different relationship. She's human, She's not, you know, just

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Speaker 3: a victim of an object. You know, she's you know,

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Speaker 3: looking at the camera gives her you know, a standing

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Speaker 3: you know, I exist, right, and so I learn to

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Speaker 3: make those choices, you know, and and to reconstitute my

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Speaker 3: own anthology, my own you know, filmography, you know, and

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Speaker 3: use choosing the idea of choosing everything that makes the

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Speaker 3: film more accurate, more stronger, you know. Again coming from

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Speaker 3: a Haiti or where you know, we have great sculptures

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Speaker 3: that use you know, everything from Robert tires and wood

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Speaker 3: and motor oil, et cetera to make incredible sculpture. I

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Speaker 3: think that's maybe something we learned to do, is to

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Speaker 3: to create a new art with with all sorts of material.

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Speaker 1: There's a reason results matter more than promises, just like

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Speaker 1: there's a reason Morgan and Morgan is America's largest injury

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Speaker 1: law firm. For the last thirty five years, they've recovered

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Speaker 1: twenty five billion dollars for more than half a million clients.

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Speaker 1: It includes cases where insurance companies offered next to nothing,

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Speaker 1: just hoping to get away with paying as little as possible.

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Speaker 1: Morgan and Morgan fought back ended up winning millions. In fact,

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Speaker 1: in Pennsylvania, one client was awarded twenty six million dollars,

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Speaker 1: which was a staggering forty times the amount that the

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Speaker 1: insurance company originally offered. That original offer six hundred and

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Speaker 1: fifty thousand dollars twenty six million, six hundred fifty thousand dollars.

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Speaker 1: So with more than one thousand lawyers across the country,

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Speaker 1: they know how to deliver for everyday people. If you're injured,

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Speaker 1: you need a lawyer. You need somebody to get your back.

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Speaker 1: Check out for the People dot com, Slash podcast, or

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Speaker 1: dial pound law, Pound five two nine law on your

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Speaker 1: cell phone. And remember all law firms are not the same,

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Speaker 1: So check out Morgan and Morgan. Their fee is free

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Speaker 1: unless they win. You know another way this could have

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Speaker 1: gone is you could have been approached to do a

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Speaker 1: new interpretation of nineteen eighty four and turn it into

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Speaker 1: a movie. So two question for you. One was that

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Speaker 1: an approach you had ever considered? In two how well

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Speaker 1: do you think the movie version has held up? And

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Speaker 1: is it does it need to be remade?

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Speaker 3: Well, first of all, it was clear that when your

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Speaker 3: you get access to the total body of work of

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Speaker 3: a writer. And this is something that never happened the girl.

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Speaker 3: You can buy a book or sometimes even a shop,

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Speaker 3: you know.

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Speaker 1: So the way I would say, you know, I P

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Speaker 1: is like such the right IP is this coin of

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Speaker 1: the realm these days in any sort of project, whether

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Speaker 1: fiction or nonfiction, And you had a lot of IP here, right, yeah.

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Speaker 3: Exactly, So I would never say, oh, I'll take this

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Speaker 3: little piece. Yeah, you know, no, And and you know

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Speaker 3: it's a sort of I didn't want to do a biography,

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Speaker 3: so but I wanted to make a film story. But

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Speaker 3: at the same time, the riches of this body of

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Speaker 3: work is what will enrich that movie. So in nineteen

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Speaker 3: eighty four was just one of it. But I could

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Speaker 3: also play with the at least four different filming of

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Speaker 3: nineteen eighty four, which also gave the film and another dimension,

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Speaker 3: you know, because you see how different generation dealt with

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Speaker 3: the novel. And to your question, I think the last

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Speaker 3: one is the most frightening one because it seems closer

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Speaker 3: to us, you know, in terms of the time. It

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Speaker 3: was shot in nineteen eighty four, it came out in

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Speaker 3: nineteen eighty four, and with incredible actors, you know, John Hart,

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Speaker 3: Richard Burton. But I knew as well V surely it

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Speaker 3: would be an important part of of of the film.

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Speaker 3: And but don't forget the idea that people have of

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Speaker 3: all well, is that he's a dystopi writer, you know,

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Speaker 3: writing about the future, almost like the.

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Speaker 1: Right the most pessimistic version of the future. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And then but it was never about that. It was

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Speaker 3: about something he went through himself, right, It was he

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Speaker 3: was just giving us, in the in the form of

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Speaker 3: a novel, his own fight throughout you know, authoritarian.

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Speaker 1: He was writing about the president. He wasn't writing about

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Speaker 1: the future. He was writing about the exactly.

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Speaker 3: So that was it's still so current because he went

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Speaker 3: to the ground of to the bottom of it, you know.

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Speaker 3: So it's it's that's why it's still so accurate, you know.

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Speaker 3: And and he was warning us, which is totally different.

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Speaker 3: You know, he was warning us what can happen if

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Speaker 3: we don't pay attention, because that that's how it happened.

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Speaker 1: And ultimately, I take it that's the way you want

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Speaker 1: this film to be received as a warning.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, it was like to put a mirror in front

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Speaker 3: of all of us and to see that, you know,

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Speaker 3: the king is naked, and and and it's not the

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Speaker 3: first time that that we have a king, naked king

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Speaker 3: in front of us. And we should learn to to

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Speaker 3: to decipher it. We should learn to to find ways

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Speaker 3: to fight it, you know. And and because that's the thing.

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Speaker 3: It never comes like one big moment, You know that

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Speaker 3: that's an illusion. It's it's comes by little things. And

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Speaker 3: those little things, by the way, they didn't start with

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Speaker 3: Trump administration, you know, even the first one.

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Speaker 1: You know, well, that's the point you seem to want

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Speaker 1: to make. You It's interesting when you, first of all,

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Speaker 1: you travel the world and different places that have essentially

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Speaker 1: lost freedom, right, and and and I really appreciate how

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Speaker 1: you do that, But it feels like with the American story,

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Speaker 1: you start with the Iraq war and the and the

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Speaker 1: lies behind that.

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Speaker 3: By example, it's like it's basically President Bush making a

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Speaker 3: speech about the bad guys in Iraq, you know, raping woman,

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Speaker 3: destroying men. You know, even the voice it's it's airy

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Speaker 3: in resemblance, you know. And and then you you can say,

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Speaker 3: oh my god, that they were basically pushing us, you know,

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Speaker 3: painting a picture. Not to say that Sadam Mussen was

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Speaker 3: a nice guys, that's what not saying. But it was

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Speaker 3: about going to war, you know. And and you know,

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Speaker 3: there was a time the word propaganda was perfectly accepted,

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Speaker 3: the word, you know, and that was exactly what it is.

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Speaker 1: That's what we did in World War two. People forget

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Speaker 1: the UNITEDS did a ton of propaganda.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you have to prepare the public opinion to go

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Speaker 3: to wall right and to send their kids to get killed.

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Speaker 3: And I will, so it's not new.

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Speaker 1: What I also appreciate about what you did because this

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Speaker 1: is something that I think in this country we're struck

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Speaker 1: where too many people are are almost get uh security

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Speaker 1: by thinking that authoritarianism is only a potential for the

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Speaker 1: quote other side politically, you know, they're the ones that

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Speaker 1: are What you do in this film is you move

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Speaker 1: around the world and show how regardless of whether this

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Speaker 1: is left wing authoritarianism or right wing authoritarianism, the path

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Speaker 1: towards those moments are eerily similar.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yes, and again the toolbox is always the same.

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Speaker 3: It's it starts with the words, with language, you know,

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Speaker 3: always as an incredible sentence for that, he said, the

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Speaker 3: degradation of language is the condition for the degradation of democracy.

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Speaker 3: So it always start there. It always starts with laws,

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Speaker 3: you know, because it's the state doing the work, you know,

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Speaker 3: so there is always the need to have some sort

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Speaker 3: of leverage, some sort of legal acceptance. So it's started

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Speaker 3: by law. Genocides always start by new decree about quotas,

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Speaker 3: about this you know, that sort of citizens, that kind

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Speaker 3: of citizen, or you know, out of the you know,

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Speaker 3: of the country, et cetera. So it's always a set

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Speaker 3: of rules. It's always a reappropriation of history to build

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Speaker 3: your on set of history.

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Speaker 1: Yes, the building of remaking history, that's another thing. Whether

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Speaker 1: it's now, whether it's putin, whether it's Trump right like

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Speaker 1: changing what you you know, changing history, revising and.

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Speaker 3: The notion of and fireability. You know, you're always right,

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Speaker 3: you know, even though we have proved that what you're saying, no,

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Speaker 3: it was not five hundred thousand people in your inauguration.

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Speaker 3: We have the pictures and you say, no, the pictures

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Speaker 3: are totally fake, et cetera. So you know, it's something

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Speaker 3: that in fact, you can't really argue with, you know,

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Speaker 3: and they get you confused, and the confusion is what

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Speaker 3: they want to do to.

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Speaker 1: Come to well, right, because it goes to this and

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Speaker 1: I feel this when I'm in the Middle East, and

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Speaker 1: I certainly have felt this when I've been to Moscow,

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Speaker 1: although I haven't been recently, but when you felt I

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Speaker 1: don't know if I would feel safe in Moscow right now.

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Speaker 1: But in general, when you talk to people, they'll say,

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Speaker 1: I don't know who to believe or what to believe

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Speaker 1: when you are in these places that have totally eroded

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Speaker 1: the media or totally eroded freedom of the press.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's one of the key toolbox as well. You

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Speaker 3: know that you you you don't know what words to use,

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Speaker 3: You don't know what they means anymore, you don't know

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Speaker 3: which word is dangerous. I'm not right.

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Speaker 1: They're not trying to convince you to believe this other thing.

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Speaker 1: They simply don't want you to believe anything.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Oh yeah, that's the ultimate goal. That's the ultimate goal.

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Speaker 3: They confuse you to, you know, to come up with

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Speaker 3: the phrase alternative facts. I mean that's a strong one. Literally, yes,

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Speaker 3: that's that's that's the definition of it, you know. So

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Speaker 3: uh and but one thing, maybe that's the first time

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Speaker 3: I'm going to speak about it because I want to

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Speaker 3: write something about it. It's it's the idea of you know, rhetoric,

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Speaker 3: you know, and that's the role of the press as well.

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Speaker 3: You know, the fact that once you start talking or

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Speaker 3: using the word that that group of people start putting

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Speaker 3: in in you know, in the in the opening, and

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Speaker 3: you start, even if you want to contract contradict it,

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Speaker 3: the mayor fact that you engage with it, you basically

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Speaker 3: are accepting it.

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Speaker 1: Well, take the phrase fake news. This actually began with

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Speaker 1: journalists going no, no, no, no, that's that's not real news.

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Speaker 1: That's fake news. And what does Trump do co opse

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Speaker 1: the language? Yeah, I'll tell you who the fake news.

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Speaker 1: You're the fake news.

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Speaker 3: And that works. He accused anybody of what he himself did.

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Speaker 3: Projection because you can't understand anything, you know. Imagine, you know,

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Speaker 3: a normal citizen, you know, trying to follow the news.

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Speaker 3: At one point he can't follow anymore. The confusion is

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Speaker 3: the point, right, Oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah, so yeah,

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Speaker 3: so the you know, who would think that the US

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Speaker 3: government administration would just decide that there is a number

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Speaker 3: of words that you're not supposed to use anymore and

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Speaker 3: take them out of any website, government website.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I doubt you're you know when you put

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Speaker 1: it like that, because that's exactly what's happened with quote

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Speaker 1: d the you know, sort of ridding the government of

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Speaker 1: quote unquote DEI. And you're right, it's like search and

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Speaker 1: replace words and literally, you know. It's funny about this, Raoul,

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Speaker 1: is that I've worked with some universities who are basically

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Speaker 1: trying to not be targets so the Trump administration, So

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Speaker 1: you know what they're doing literally searching for words and

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Speaker 1: phrases on their own websites and going get rid of it.

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Speaker 1: So everybody's participating now.

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Speaker 3: So so he won. You won already because that's what

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Speaker 3: rhetoric teach you that you know, as soon as you engage,

433
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:22,720
Speaker 3: you caught, you're caught.

434
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:27,320
Speaker 1: You' you're you're You've allowed it to you've allowed them

435
00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:30,280
Speaker 1: to get alive. You accepted the premise.

436
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:35,040
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, so you you you're weaker, you know so,

437
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:44,400
Speaker 3: and again Trump brought it to a really extremely explosive

438
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:49,440
Speaker 3: twine because like we are totally out of any sort

439
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:55,200
Speaker 3: of control. But you know, I remember Bill Clinton saying something.

440
00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:57,360
Speaker 3: I remember I did a film on the general side

441
00:29:57,360 --> 00:29:58,800
Speaker 3: of Rwanda, right.

442
00:29:58,920 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 1: I remember the.

443
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:06,479
Speaker 3: Spoke person for Clinton trying to wriggle herself out of

444
00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:11,240
Speaker 3: the definition of what the genocide is, right, and the

445
00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:14,479
Speaker 3: journalist was trying, yes, but you just say that and

446
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:17,480
Speaker 3: that's exactly what has happened. And then she would say, yes,

447
00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:22,800
Speaker 3: but the definition of genocide is and the jennialist would say, well,

448
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:26,360
Speaker 3: that's exactly what is happening. So it goes on and on.

449
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:31,000
Speaker 3: So you could see that they knew what words means

450
00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:34,840
Speaker 3: and they have to make you believe that, you know,

451
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:38,000
Speaker 3: the words are not what they say, you know, And

452
00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:42,200
Speaker 3: so during Clinton we could say yes, but there was

453
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:45,840
Speaker 3: still institutions, There was still but you know, this kind

454
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:50,320
Speaker 3: of thing they go very quickly, and when the civil

455
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:55,200
Speaker 3: society is start accepting certain thing, it can reproduce itself.

456
00:30:56,280 --> 00:31:00,360
Speaker 1: I'll be honest, there's a powerlessness that I sometimes feel

457
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:04,320
Speaker 1: about this, because you know, one of the things that

458
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:08,360
Speaker 1: today's journalists aren't fully appreciative of is that we don't

459
00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:13,640
Speaker 1: control our own distribution. Only a handful of people or

460
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 1: a handful of political excuse me, a handful of computer

461
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:22,720
Speaker 1: programs help control distribution, right we have? You know, it's

462
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:26,320
Speaker 1: just three or four big tech companies that account for

463
00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:29,640
Speaker 1: the ability to you know, get ninety percent of of

464
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:33,800
Speaker 1: words or pictures out there. Or even if you're an

465
00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:36,720
Speaker 1: independent journalist, you're more likely to be on one of

466
00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:41,719
Speaker 1: only two platforms in this country, Google's YouTube or sub stack. Well,

467
00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:44,520
Speaker 1: I mean what if they you know that that's a

468
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:51,880
Speaker 1: dangerous place to be. And frankly, I'm curious, are you

469
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:54,800
Speaker 1: having trouble distributing this film in this country?

470
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:59,880
Speaker 3: Well, we were lucky because one of our first invent

471
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:06,840
Speaker 3: was nail On, the big distributing company who you know,

472
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:10,560
Speaker 3: saw you know what kind of film that could be

473
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 3: uh and was was on board. So they bought the

474
00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:17,560
Speaker 3: film like four years ago. So we we knew that

475
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 3: we would have a theatrical distribution. And that was the

476
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:24,920
Speaker 3: idea of this film from the first image. I knew

477
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:30,280
Speaker 3: that I wanted the big screen, not something for for TV.

478
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 3: It was yeah, and and and also even you know,

479
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:38,480
Speaker 3: to fill in the room with other people to have

480
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:42,960
Speaker 3: that experience to be totally immersed with all well, because

481
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 3: that's what that's a performance. Damian Lewis, who is doing

482
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:50,720
Speaker 3: the voice, is not a narrator. He is all well.

483
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:52,320
Speaker 1: You are with him.

484
00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:56,680
Speaker 3: You you can feel his the way you know, his respiration,

485
00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:01,160
Speaker 3: et cetera. So it's an immersion in in always work

486
00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:05,040
Speaker 3: in his period. And and and he's talking to us

487
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:08,200
Speaker 3: like an old sage who's going to die. But he's

488
00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:14,360
Speaker 3: telling us is his most you know, important wisdom, you know,

489
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:17,720
Speaker 3: and and that you can only have that in the

490
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:21,280
Speaker 3: in the big dock room and with other people with you.

491
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 1: So you feel pretty good that this will this will

492
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 1: get good circulation, this will be stream Yeah, we are

493
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:28,719
Speaker 1: in mainstream platforms.

494
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:33,560
Speaker 3: Okay, we are in seventy markets already with third weeks.

495
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:37,400
Speaker 3: And we are you know, uh, you know, having the

496
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:41,800
Speaker 3: best record for a documentary film, which I.

497
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:43,760
Speaker 1: Don't know whether that's good or bad, right, I always

498
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:46,000
Speaker 1: say that that's right, that's it's good for you. But

499
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:49,320
Speaker 1: it's also there's a lot of us who are like, hey,

500
00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:52,560
Speaker 1: this this feels like a necessity in the moment.

501
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:54,720
Speaker 3: Yes, And and I could you know, I did a

502
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:57,320
Speaker 3: lot of Q and A in in New York in

503
00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:04,280
Speaker 3: La in uh uh, in Chicago and San Francisco so

504
00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:10,239
Speaker 3: uh and in other countries in the UK. So you

505
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:15,319
Speaker 3: can see how the people, you know, needed something like

506
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:19,160
Speaker 3: this because it allows them to put words and what

507
00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:25,320
Speaker 3: they are feeling to see some explanation. It's like describing

508
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:28,839
Speaker 3: a lot of things you have been feeling all those

509
00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:32,360
Speaker 3: last years that you cannot really because there is a

510
00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:36,400
Speaker 3: whole sort of confusion as well, you know, and you

511
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:41,440
Speaker 3: are being bombarded every day with images, with breaking news,

512
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:45,359
Speaker 3: with this and that nobody can I mean, journalists can

513
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:49,480
Speaker 3: hardly keep up with this. So he may imagine a

514
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:50,400
Speaker 3: general audience.

515
00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:55,520
Speaker 1: So you know, our biggest problem is people tuning out

516
00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:59,359
Speaker 1: right now. Yeah, that's the biggest difference between the first

517
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:03,480
Speaker 1: Trump term and the second Trump term is the passivity.

518
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:08,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, and and we are I understand that completely. And

519
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:11,840
Speaker 3: but at the same time, when people ask you, you

520
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:15,879
Speaker 3: know how you hopeful or you know, I say, well,

521
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:19,480
Speaker 3: it will depends on you because history will not wait

522
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:23,239
Speaker 3: for you. You will end up with something that eventually

523
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:28,279
Speaker 3: you didn't want and and you have no implication in it,

524
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:30,799
Speaker 3: You have no not the words to say to it.

525
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:35,320
Speaker 3: So that's you know, we we take democracy for granted.

526
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:38,759
Speaker 3: We take you know, freedom of speech for the granted right.

527
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:43,760
Speaker 3: And and you know, coming from countries that have had dictatorship,

528
00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:46,960
Speaker 3: we know that something it is something you have to

529
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:50,080
Speaker 3: fight for, you know, every day it's not you know,

530
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:54,000
Speaker 3: you can't just let it slow for one day, another day,

531
00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:58,719
Speaker 3: another week, and no, each time you let it, you

532
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:03,080
Speaker 3: let something past. It's a destruction, you know, and it's

533
00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:07,080
Speaker 3: going to be harder later to correct it, you know,

534
00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:11,399
Speaker 3: because people get used to to certain behaviors.

535
00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:12,960
Speaker 1: You know. So I still try to you know, when

536
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:15,880
Speaker 1: I get asked the question about how vulnerable our democracy is,

537
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:19,400
Speaker 1: I do say that, you know, our voters, the voters

538
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:23,560
Speaker 1: figured about eventually. The question is you know, how quickly?

539
00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:26,840
Speaker 1: And it's never as fast as you want. But I

540
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:30,440
Speaker 1: ground myself in that sort of maybe it's a belief,

541
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:33,560
Speaker 1: maybe it's a hope, you know that that we've we

542
00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:37,080
Speaker 1: got close before in history and we've always avoided this

543
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:43,000
Speaker 1: and there's still there's still plenty of time to avoid it.

544
00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:47,799
Speaker 3: But well, I think you you too quick on that.

545
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:52,400
Speaker 3: You know, the last election, if if vice president parents

546
00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:55,720
Speaker 3: would have decided otherwise.

547
00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:59,640
Speaker 1: We don't know where where would we has gone? Electoral

548
00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:05,239
Speaker 1: ex said yes, one person, one person behaving differently could

549
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:07,040
Speaker 1: have totally changed history.

550
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:13,560
Speaker 3: And then that's it. And then we don't know how

551
00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 3: fight would go. But we know that each time is

552
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:18,960
Speaker 3: because somebody were one.

553
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:33,320
Speaker 6: Let's say, no, that's not correct, I will not do it.

554
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:38,480
Speaker 1: But where I do feel really pessimistic. It's really happened

555
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:41,440
Speaker 1: in the last three or four weeks, and it is

556
00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:46,360
Speaker 1: a It was the debut of a new tool called Sora,

557
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:52,600
Speaker 1: the ability to make images right AI images. We are

558
00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:56,360
Speaker 1: already at the point on social media. We were there

559
00:37:56,960 --> 00:38:01,279
Speaker 1: basically there already. But now whatever you say, you're not

560
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 1: going to believe now online all of it. I you know,

561
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:08,799
Speaker 1: you have to question everything. And I, as I joke,

562
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:11,279
Speaker 1: I have older eyes, and I'll see people say, well,

563
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:13,560
Speaker 1: this is obviously made by AI. And I'm sitting there

564
00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:17,400
Speaker 1: going really uh oh if I can't see it, I

565
00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:21,560
Speaker 1: feel already as if I'm in trouble the fact this

566
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:24,200
Speaker 1: is coming out. I feel like your film's coming out,

567
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:29,320
Speaker 1: you're making you made it before this explosion of AI imagery,

568
00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 1: which is just going to transform visual honesty for the

569
00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:35,680
Speaker 1: for the rest of our lifetime.

570
00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:42,600
Speaker 3: At the same time, yeah, we need to know history.

571
00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:43,200
Speaker 1: You know.

572
00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:45,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, first of all, that's not the first time that

573
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:51,520
Speaker 3: even in the United States that the whole press I've

574
00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:56,239
Speaker 3: been captive of a few billionaires. That happened in the

575
00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:57,880
Speaker 3: beginning of the twentieth century.

576
00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:01,280
Speaker 1: No, it's where it's weirdly how why I have because

577
00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:03,760
Speaker 1: we did it once and we broke away right.

578
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:07,480
Speaker 3: Yes, and that's those circles come again and again because

579
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:12,000
Speaker 3: we live in the same kind of capitalistic society that

580
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:16,719
Speaker 3: is where technology, unfortunately is moved by profit. You know,

581
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:20,960
Speaker 3: we discovered new tools, and these tools as soon as

582
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:25,080
Speaker 3: it gets into business hands, you you get into a

583
00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:30,360
Speaker 3: totally irrational world where where it's about making profit. I

584
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:34,719
Speaker 3: remind you that a few years back, there was even

585
00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:38,839
Speaker 3: last year, I think there was a common decision of

586
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:44,960
Speaker 3: all the people working General Rating AI who said we

587
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:47,719
Speaker 3: need a pause. I know, I don't know if you

588
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:51,319
Speaker 3: remember that, I do, and nobody a month there was

589
00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:56,560
Speaker 3: a gold rush and they lost all barriers, they lost

590
00:39:56,640 --> 00:40:00,320
Speaker 3: all ethic and and it was so the pro problem

591
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:06,160
Speaker 3: is not the technology itself. The problem is regulation. It's rules.

592
00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:09,640
Speaker 3: Is that somebody say no, you're not you cannot just

593
00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:13,560
Speaker 3: and you know, use something to make money. No, matter

594
00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:17,960
Speaker 3: what the the damage it will cost to a society,

595
00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:21,799
Speaker 3: you know, and that way of thinking has it it's

596
00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:24,120
Speaker 3: the only way you can stop this. But you can't

597
00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:28,719
Speaker 3: just say, oh, we are lost the technology it's out there. No,

598
00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:32,359
Speaker 3: at one point, that's why your society is there. At

599
00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:35,680
Speaker 3: one point you say it's doing too much damage. We're

600
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:39,120
Speaker 3: gonna regulate it, you know, the same way you regulate drugs,

601
00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:44,080
Speaker 3: you try to regulate weapons. We still could do better,

602
00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:49,239
Speaker 3: but that's that's the clear path, you know. So, yes,

603
00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:53,560
Speaker 3: it's it's crazy, it's it's uh, you know it's saying

604
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:57,600
Speaker 3: you know, it's it's fear. It brings a lot of fear.

605
00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:01,600
Speaker 3: But you know, we shouldn't just feel that we can't

606
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:03,800
Speaker 3: do anything. Yes, we of course we can do something

607
00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:04,279
Speaker 3: about it.

608
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:09,759
Speaker 1: No, I'm I I sort of my weird optimism on

609
00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:13,560
Speaker 1: the that if we don't trust anything we see online,

610
00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:16,759
Speaker 1: maybe that'll get us to leave our house and go

611
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:20,719
Speaker 1: actually have real people experiences, sit in a movie theater

612
00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:24,680
Speaker 1: and absorb a documentary like this that that actually we

613
00:41:24,719 --> 00:41:29,439
Speaker 1: will crave. The more artificial life is online, the more

614
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:32,840
Speaker 1: as a species we will create, we will crave the

615
00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:36,200
Speaker 1: human touch. We don't want this artificialness.

616
00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:39,439
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think that's what happened. You can see

617
00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:43,000
Speaker 3: that by you know, like the thing like the demonstration

618
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:51,480
Speaker 3: on No King right. Besides the eventual political repercussion, I

619
00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:54,360
Speaker 3: think for most people it was a moment to fill

620
00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:56,520
Speaker 3: other people with them in the streets.

621
00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:59,480
Speaker 1: Right, I feel heard, I'm alone? Right, Yeah, if you

622
00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:01,319
Speaker 1: want to, you want to know that you're am I

623
00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:03,680
Speaker 1: the only? Am I the crazy one here? Or is

624
00:42:03,719 --> 00:42:09,560
Speaker 1: everybody else? Right? You know? It's that feeling on that Well.

625
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:11,880
Speaker 1: I hope every university campus this feels like you know,

626
00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:15,160
Speaker 1: if I was, if if if I was, my son's

627
00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:18,279
Speaker 1: a freshman in college, my daughter's a senior in college,

628
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:21,560
Speaker 1: I would want to see me make sure that this

629
00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:24,560
Speaker 1: film showed up on a college, my son's college campus, right.

630
00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:27,560
Speaker 3: That they already have a lot of demands. Yeah, And

631
00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:30,160
Speaker 3: I went to I went to Yale, I went to

632
00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:33,919
Speaker 3: Columbia and had discussion Q and as with students and

633
00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:37,520
Speaker 3: and remember one at Yale who was you know, used

634
00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:39,919
Speaker 3: the film to tell, you know, in the whole room,

635
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:43,600
Speaker 3: you know, uh that apparently there is a new rule

636
00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:49,680
Speaker 3: at Yale that uh, the university should stay not neutral

637
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:53,200
Speaker 3: on politically right and.

638
00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:57,319
Speaker 1: So you don't know what neutrality looks like anymore? Who does? Well?

639
00:42:57,480 --> 00:43:00,520
Speaker 1: I always go to this. I mean, you know, media

640
00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:04,040
Speaker 1: critics will say, hey, you're a partisan, and I'll say, well,

641
00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:08,279
Speaker 1: a partisan accusing somebody else of being a partisan? You know,

642
00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:10,640
Speaker 1: you you it's that's a very I don't trust a

643
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:15,320
Speaker 1: partisan to decide what's neutral, right, they don't have that ability.

644
00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:18,240
Speaker 1: But in fairness, who's neutral anymore?

645
00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:18,440
Speaker 3: Right?

646
00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:18,960
Speaker 1: The way?

647
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:19,439
Speaker 3: Yeah?

648
00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:22,480
Speaker 1: Well the way? You know, right, what is neutrality? And

649
00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:22,840
Speaker 1: what is that?

650
00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:26,279
Speaker 3: What alwill say is that the very you know, to

651
00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:31,040
Speaker 3: say that you're neutral is a political position. You know,

652
00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:34,160
Speaker 3: there is not just a thing of neutrality. And that's

653
00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:37,919
Speaker 3: why sometimes the press also wants to become a sort

654
00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:41,640
Speaker 3: of arbitrary and forget that they are also citizens that

655
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:44,640
Speaker 3: they have also to take a stand. You know, there

656
00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:47,560
Speaker 3: is a I would say, a bottom line of democracy

657
00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:52,400
Speaker 3: before you go into any political fight. We should agree

658
00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:55,040
Speaker 3: on that bottom line. You know, how do we speak

659
00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:58,800
Speaker 3: with another? What is the true? What is you know untrue?

660
00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:02,680
Speaker 3: What is science? What is law? What is illegal? Those

661
00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:06,680
Speaker 3: bottom lines? You know, anyone, whether you on Fox or

662
00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:09,680
Speaker 3: you on CNN, you should agree on that. But now

663
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:16,640
Speaker 3: those things are totally make and opinion becomes something almost rational,

664
00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:20,400
Speaker 3: you know, since when opinion is opinion, you you are

665
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:24,279
Speaker 3: the only one defending that, you know, unless you bring arguments.

666
00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:29,080
Speaker 3: But unfortunately that's not the case. Anybody can you know,

667
00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:32,160
Speaker 3: the guy who spent ten hours on the internet can

668
00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:36,680
Speaker 3: have the guy who spent forty years on the same subject,

669
00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:39,120
Speaker 3: and he can come to his face and say, you know,

670
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:43,239
Speaker 3: what you've been doing is bullshit, you know, and that

671
00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:49,760
Speaker 3: is accepted today. And that's that's Yeah, that's a very

672
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:53,839
Speaker 3: very weird situation right now. And I'm not sure that

673
00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:56,400
Speaker 3: we will be able to bring the pace in the

674
00:44:56,480 --> 00:44:58,480
Speaker 3: tube easily.

675
00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:01,759
Speaker 1: No, it's gonna this is generational. This is going to

676
00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:05,920
Speaker 1: take a generation. And and and you know, we've had it.

677
00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:07,480
Speaker 1: You know, if we.

678
00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:11,080
Speaker 3: Don't, if we don't go through worse, I mean, we

679
00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:14,200
Speaker 3: forget that. It's a very violent country, you know, we

680
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:18,239
Speaker 3: that's a lot of violent world, you know, and violent world.

681
00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:21,000
Speaker 3: You know, the rest of the world have been in

682
00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:26,080
Speaker 3: violent violence for quite a while, but we've been led

683
00:45:26,120 --> 00:45:30,439
Speaker 3: from Europe is a little bit protected, but now there

684
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:34,439
Speaker 3: is no safe place. And if you are destroying all

685
00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:38,279
Speaker 3: the bulwark of your democracy, what you were you know,

686
00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:41,840
Speaker 3: like abioscopus, like you can't be arrested for no reason

687
00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:45,840
Speaker 3: like that. You know, all this don't exist anymore, because

688
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:50,000
Speaker 3: that's the thing. Some people think that because you're chasing

689
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:55,000
Speaker 3: Latinos in the streets that it will stop at that. Never,

690
00:45:56,080 --> 00:45:59,480
Speaker 3: it's never the case. They will, you know, go up

691
00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:03,799
Speaker 3: and after a while it would be anybody who say

692
00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:05,120
Speaker 3: something who is not Maga.

693
00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:08,359
Speaker 1: Well there's the great great poem. First they limit that.

694
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:10,800
Speaker 1: First they came for the migrants, and I didn't say anything.

695
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:12,839
Speaker 1: Then they came for you, right, and then they came

696
00:46:12,880 --> 00:46:17,799
Speaker 1: for me right exactly. Let me let me close with

697
00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:22,640
Speaker 1: what I've just viewed as a just a historic tragedy

698
00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:27,359
Speaker 1: that is Haiti. This is an incredible culture. I love.

699
00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:31,560
Speaker 1: I grown up in Miami just getting pieces of the

700
00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:34,920
Speaker 1: Haitian culture, whether in art, music, and food. It's a

701
00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:38,360
Speaker 1: it's an amazing culture. And I want to I always

702
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:40,799
Speaker 1: start my question this way when it comes to how

703
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:44,560
Speaker 1: is this island of Hispaniola so divided? I know it's

704
00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:49,040
Speaker 1: physically divided by this mountain range, but the Dominican Republic

705
00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:52,200
Speaker 1: is so you know, the stability of the Dominican Republic

706
00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:56,480
Speaker 1: versus the instability of Haiti. What's your explanation.

707
00:46:56,680 --> 00:47:00,719
Speaker 3: It's because we have two different history. Don't forget. In

708
00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:06,720
Speaker 3: eighteen or two to sal Levertur have had both sides

709
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:12,000
Speaker 3: of the island. Despite a refusal from Napoleon, he had

710
00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:14,200
Speaker 3: won all the war. He had won the war against

711
00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:18,960
Speaker 3: the Spanish, against the French, against the British, and he

712
00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:22,759
Speaker 3: decided to reorganize the whole island. Why do you think

713
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:27,920
Speaker 3: today the Napoleon code is still the code in the

714
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:31,520
Speaker 3: Dominican Republic. To send was the first head of state

715
00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:40,040
Speaker 3: to give a structure in the Dominican Republic. But the

716
00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:45,600
Speaker 3: difference is that we paid a huge price for our independence,

717
00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:50,000
Speaker 3: you know, and we paid for it. Don't forget the

718
00:47:50,640 --> 00:47:54,560
Speaker 3: moneral doctrine was not a small thing, you know, like

719
00:47:54,680 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 3: America belonged to the United States. That was really imposed.

720
00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:03,600
Speaker 3: And we being the first black republic and the whole

721
00:48:03,680 --> 00:48:08,520
Speaker 3: enemies fare. We were considered worse than Cuba in the fifties.

722
00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:13,239
Speaker 3: So there was no way that people in a New

723
00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:17,239
Speaker 3: Orleans in Philadelphia were scared about the Save Revolution in

724
00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:22,320
Speaker 3: the eighty Yeah, and they make everything they could to strength.

725
00:48:22,520 --> 00:48:26,080
Speaker 1: You see that the successful slave rebellion in Haiti sort

726
00:48:26,080 --> 00:48:32,360
Speaker 1: of made the United States not a not a paternal

727
00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:40,400
Speaker 1: sort of benevolent paternal sort of figure, but a malevolent neighbor.

728
00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:44,320
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, because you know that was clearly a danger

729
00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:49,319
Speaker 3: for their own you know reality and the irony of

730
00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:53,160
Speaker 3: all this. Without Haiti, there is no United States as

731
00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:53,600
Speaker 3: we know it.

732
00:48:54,520 --> 00:48:54,800
Speaker 1: Right.

733
00:48:56,880 --> 00:49:00,920
Speaker 3: The most importantly, army were blocked in Haiti. Napoleon had

734
00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:06,440
Speaker 3: to sell the Louisiana purchase, you know, and and start

735
00:49:06,520 --> 00:49:09,800
Speaker 3: up capitalism because for the first time in the world,

736
00:49:10,160 --> 00:49:14,360
Speaker 3: in the whole planet, there was ilimited land and ilimited

737
00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:21,319
Speaker 3: manpower through slavery, and cotton just exploded. And that's the

738
00:49:21,400 --> 00:49:26,600
Speaker 3: result of Haiti beating up Napoleon, you know, because they thought,

739
00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:30,160
Speaker 3: you know, we would establish slavery in Haiti in four

740
00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:34,399
Speaker 3: months and then we will continue to occupy one third

741
00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:40,720
Speaker 3: of America that belonged to France. That's so the price

742
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:44,800
Speaker 3: that Haiti is paying is we are still paying it today.

743
00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:48,440
Speaker 3: We could not invest in and frastructure because we had

744
00:49:48,480 --> 00:49:53,600
Speaker 3: to reamboost a death to to France, and all the

745
00:49:53,719 --> 00:49:59,040
Speaker 3: countries agree with that because they had the advantage on sea.

746
00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:02,480
Speaker 3: You know, we were just island. We could fight on land.

747
00:50:03,280 --> 00:50:06,440
Speaker 3: But we didn't have ship to fight when they would

748
00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:10,399
Speaker 3: bring a worship in front of the Capitol and say

749
00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:12,840
Speaker 3: we're going to bombard it if you don't accept this

750
00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:16,239
Speaker 3: and this and this. That's that was the canon diplomacy

751
00:50:16,560 --> 00:50:19,880
Speaker 3: at the time. So we we paid that price.

752
00:50:20,040 --> 00:50:23,839
Speaker 1: And yeah, what if you could wave a magic wand

753
00:50:24,040 --> 00:50:26,680
Speaker 1: and change and get the United States and the United

754
00:50:26,680 --> 00:50:29,840
Speaker 1: States and we had a president that said, well, tell me,

755
00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:33,279
Speaker 1: I will do whatever it takes to help Haiti. What

756
00:50:33,480 --> 00:50:35,279
Speaker 1: is it that the United States could be doing.

757
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:39,959
Speaker 3: The first thing I would say, stay out of our business.

758
00:50:40,480 --> 00:50:43,480
Speaker 3: That's would be the first saying. Because we never had

759
00:50:43,920 --> 00:50:48,400
Speaker 3: one government, one president, one prime minister, one chief of

760
00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:51,360
Speaker 3: police that is not vetted by the US embassy.

761
00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:55,160
Speaker 1: That's our story, right, since.

762
00:50:54,920 --> 00:50:58,480
Speaker 3: Du Valier sends all the government. In fact, our whole

763
00:50:58,640 --> 00:51:03,480
Speaker 3: fight against a four democracy when the civil society again,

764
00:51:03,600 --> 00:51:08,600
Speaker 3: don't forget the civil society through Jacqueslaud Duvalier, baby dog out.

765
00:51:09,560 --> 00:51:14,080
Speaker 3: He was still being supported by the US until the

766
00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:18,040
Speaker 3: last day. Okay, it's always the civil society that has

767
00:51:18,080 --> 00:51:22,360
Speaker 3: to go on the street and fight. And what happened again,

768
00:51:23,120 --> 00:51:26,480
Speaker 3: they tried to influence the outcome. They tried to influence

769
00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:32,480
Speaker 3: the elections. We had frauded election. They changed the result

770
00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:37,680
Speaker 3: in two thousand and two when Martin le became president.

771
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:41,040
Speaker 3: You know, I'm making a film on the assassination of

772
00:51:41,360 --> 00:51:44,759
Speaker 3: President jeof Nel Moiz and I can tell you, you know,

773
00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:49,680
Speaker 3: it's so blatted the role of people like Hillary Clinton,

774
00:51:50,760 --> 00:51:58,560
Speaker 3: Bill Clinton, the whole US administration in basically pushing for

775
00:51:58,760 --> 00:52:03,640
Speaker 3: Martelli to become president. Somebody who is known have been

776
00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:08,319
Speaker 3: a drug traffickers, Uh, what do you call it? A

777
00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:13,000
Speaker 3: brother in law is still an FBI d informant today.

778
00:52:13,600 --> 00:52:15,880
Speaker 3: And I mean it's you know, when you work on that,

779
00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:18,719
Speaker 3: you say, oh my god, how can this be possible?

780
00:52:19,080 --> 00:52:21,920
Speaker 1: Boy? As you know, this is the story of almost

781
00:52:22,239 --> 00:52:26,000
Speaker 1: every relationship we have in the Western hemisphere the US

782
00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:30,919
Speaker 1: is just it either gets too involved or not involved enough.

783
00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:34,319
Speaker 1: But it's never as a friendly neighbor. It's always as

784
00:52:34,360 --> 00:52:35,760
Speaker 1: a micromanaging neighbor.

785
00:52:36,160 --> 00:52:39,239
Speaker 3: Yeah. And the last thing about that, you know, there

786
00:52:39,280 --> 00:52:42,160
Speaker 3: have been a movement for the last seven years trying

787
00:52:42,680 --> 00:52:47,880
Speaker 3: to restore some sort of constitutional legitimacy.

788
00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:52,760
Speaker 1: Right over there. Whether fighting over this, no.

789
00:52:52,600 --> 00:52:55,160
Speaker 3: It's no. But before we you know, there were a

790
00:52:55,200 --> 00:52:59,719
Speaker 3: lot of consultations in the whole asians of society, all parties,

791
00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:05,399
Speaker 3: all institutions, unions, et cetera, participate in that debate. And

792
00:53:05,440 --> 00:53:09,880
Speaker 3: they had a plan, uh they call it Montana Accord,

793
00:53:10,400 --> 00:53:13,440
Speaker 3: and which have been the base to have this new government.

794
00:53:14,040 --> 00:53:19,880
Speaker 3: But what happened the biggest fearless opposing force into each

795
00:53:20,480 --> 00:53:24,680
Speaker 3: of those elements, when's the US administration, because they wanted

796
00:53:24,760 --> 00:53:27,400
Speaker 3: to keep the control they wanted to have. There are

797
00:53:27,520 --> 00:53:30,600
Speaker 3: men that they control. They don't care if that man

798
00:53:30,840 --> 00:53:34,799
Speaker 3: is a Democrat or not. They just want to control it.

799
00:53:35,440 --> 00:53:38,080
Speaker 3: You know. So there was I think it was Nixon

800
00:53:38,160 --> 00:53:40,279
Speaker 3: to say, well, yeah, we know he's a crook, but

801
00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:45,080
Speaker 3: it is our crook. That's the base of the politics.

802
00:53:45,120 --> 00:53:49,239
Speaker 3: And I'm telling you that with all sincerity because I

803
00:53:49,360 --> 00:53:53,600
Speaker 3: know that I've you know, I have US ambassadors who

804
00:53:53,640 --> 00:53:57,480
Speaker 3: have friends. They told me, we have no plan. You know,

805
00:53:57,560 --> 00:54:00,799
Speaker 3: our plan is the next three months, it's even the

806
00:54:00,840 --> 00:54:04,680
Speaker 3: next year. You know, they go nobody cares about eighty

807
00:54:05,120 --> 00:54:07,600
Speaker 3: you know, they come when there is a catastrophe, that's it.

808
00:54:08,200 --> 00:54:11,399
Speaker 3: But they want to keep the the you know, their

809
00:54:11,440 --> 00:54:15,040
Speaker 3: own person. And with the elite, which is you know,

810
00:54:15,120 --> 00:54:20,040
Speaker 3: an oligoch elite who's closer to the American elite than to.

811
00:54:20,040 --> 00:54:23,680
Speaker 1: Them because of that's it's usually about money, it's about

812
00:54:23,680 --> 00:54:25,120
Speaker 1: well exactly exactly.

813
00:54:25,880 --> 00:54:29,680
Speaker 3: So yeah, it's a long story and we should do

814
00:54:29,719 --> 00:54:30,680
Speaker 3: a whole show.

815
00:54:30,440 --> 00:54:33,399
Speaker 1: On I would love to do that. When you're when,

816
00:54:33,640 --> 00:54:36,160
Speaker 1: when when is the film on the assassination going to

817
00:54:36,200 --> 00:54:36,520
Speaker 1: come out?

818
00:54:37,360 --> 00:54:41,680
Speaker 3: Probably next year because we're waiting for the trial in Florida.

819
00:54:41,800 --> 00:54:44,080
Speaker 3: In Miami there is a trial going on right now.

820
00:54:44,960 --> 00:54:47,279
Speaker 3: The one in Haiti have been pushed back again. They

821
00:54:47,320 --> 00:54:50,640
Speaker 3: have to start from scratch because it's a complicated story.

822
00:54:51,600 --> 00:54:54,240
Speaker 3: But we hope that the one in Miami will will

823
00:54:54,360 --> 00:54:58,959
Speaker 3: be I think schedule for March to twenty six.

824
00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:01,680
Speaker 1: I could go on and on, but let me get

825
00:55:01,719 --> 00:55:08,160
Speaker 1: you out of here with one artistic creative question. AI,

826
00:55:09,440 --> 00:55:11,920
Speaker 1: can youe? How will you? How do you plan to

827
00:55:12,120 --> 00:55:13,560
Speaker 1: use it in your filmmaking?

828
00:55:15,680 --> 00:55:19,839
Speaker 3: I will not unless I am totally transparent in it

829
00:55:20,360 --> 00:55:26,440
Speaker 3: and that there is a story reason why to use it.

830
00:55:26,960 --> 00:55:29,920
Speaker 3: You know, I can't just use it as an instrument

831
00:55:30,600 --> 00:55:35,000
Speaker 3: that doesn't have any bias of flaws, you know, And

832
00:55:35,040 --> 00:55:39,440
Speaker 3: that's what regulation needs to say. You know, you have

833
00:55:39,560 --> 00:55:43,000
Speaker 3: to find what are the rules, what are the ethical rules?

834
00:55:43,160 --> 00:55:47,320
Speaker 3: What are the economical rules, what are the copyright rules?

835
00:55:47,680 --> 00:55:51,200
Speaker 3: All that has to be worked upon? You know, it's

836
00:55:51,520 --> 00:55:55,960
Speaker 3: one person in the film was saying tech industry is

837
00:55:56,000 --> 00:56:01,120
Speaker 3: the least regulated industry in the whole planet. And usually

838
00:56:01,280 --> 00:56:05,319
Speaker 3: that takes time. Congress usually take five or even ten

839
00:56:05,440 --> 00:56:08,120
Speaker 3: years to regulate. Now with the.

840
00:56:08,080 --> 00:56:13,560
Speaker 1: Stud it took us seventy years to mandate seatbelts in automobiles. Okay,

841
00:56:13,960 --> 00:56:17,120
Speaker 1: like right, Like that's a lot that it took that

842
00:56:17,400 --> 00:56:21,319
Speaker 1: long for us to worry about individual safety and cars.

843
00:56:21,080 --> 00:56:24,080
Speaker 3: And people who are making making money out of it.

844
00:56:24,200 --> 00:56:27,880
Speaker 3: They know they are, they are charging right, they are

845
00:56:27,920 --> 00:56:32,040
Speaker 3: trying to make the most money the most controlled until

846
00:56:32,560 --> 00:56:36,359
Speaker 3: you know, the regulation cup but usually it comes. That's

847
00:56:36,360 --> 00:56:40,480
Speaker 3: why they are lobbying their lobby to push back any regulation.

848
00:56:41,000 --> 00:56:41,239
Speaker 1: You know.

849
00:56:41,320 --> 00:56:44,200
Speaker 3: That's that's the game that we have been seeing after

850
00:56:44,480 --> 00:56:50,560
Speaker 3: every new technology. Internet remember how you know, how it

851
00:56:50,840 --> 00:56:54,560
Speaker 3: was to put some sort of regulation on the Internet

852
00:56:55,200 --> 00:56:58,239
Speaker 3: that we started. I remember the first time I used

853
00:56:58,239 --> 00:57:02,120
Speaker 3: the Internet, it was in the university colltext context. You

854
00:57:02,200 --> 00:57:05,080
Speaker 3: have to go to your professor to have a number

855
00:57:05,200 --> 00:57:07,880
Speaker 3: so that you could access the ne and it was

856
00:57:08,040 --> 00:57:09,680
Speaker 3: scientific you could not just.

857
00:57:09,800 --> 00:57:11,960
Speaker 1: Well, but that's an argument. I mean not to go

858
00:57:12,000 --> 00:57:14,560
Speaker 1: off on a tangent here, but you know, the government,

859
00:57:14,760 --> 00:57:18,400
Speaker 1: United States government was involved in building the Internet. You

860
00:57:18,400 --> 00:57:21,080
Speaker 1: could argue that this was a technology that at least

861
00:57:21,680 --> 00:57:23,920
Speaker 1: the government was aware of the guardrails that might be

862
00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:27,880
Speaker 1: necessary in the moment. We did it with nuclear weapons,

863
00:57:27,920 --> 00:57:30,360
Speaker 1: whether that was smart or not, but we were the

864
00:57:30,400 --> 00:57:34,400
Speaker 1: government was there involved with it. This is the first matter.

865
00:57:34,800 --> 00:57:38,040
Speaker 1: This change is something where government's not being involved other

866
00:57:38,120 --> 00:57:41,880
Speaker 1: than as almost an investor. It's about it and that's

867
00:57:42,640 --> 00:57:43,760
Speaker 1: that's a scary process.

868
00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:48,560
Speaker 3: Well, well, the ones building or even in government, Yeah,

869
00:57:48,600 --> 00:57:51,960
Speaker 3: you know that's the scary pod. They are in power.

870
00:57:52,480 --> 00:57:54,920
Speaker 1: They have power, and they're gonna, yeah, use it.

871
00:57:54,960 --> 00:57:57,560
Speaker 3: So again, it will be on the shoulder of the

872
00:57:57,600 --> 00:58:00,840
Speaker 3: civil society to find a response to that, because if

873
00:58:00,880 --> 00:58:03,760
Speaker 3: we don't, they will do whatever they want with us.

874
00:58:03,960 --> 00:58:09,200
Speaker 1: Well, look, I can't. I highly recommend this. This was terrific.

875
00:58:09,280 --> 00:58:14,000
Speaker 1: It is both beautiful. It's a visual it's just visually

876
00:58:14,160 --> 00:58:18,439
Speaker 1: appealing and yeah, it's not going to make you feel great.

877
00:58:18,920 --> 00:58:20,800
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna lie about that.

878
00:58:21,480 --> 00:58:26,040
Speaker 3: But it will push you to us some necessary questions.

879
00:58:25,720 --> 00:58:27,960
Speaker 1: And we got to keep doing that and more people.

880
00:58:27,960 --> 00:58:31,640
Speaker 1: And you're right, I wish I did experience it with

881
00:58:31,680 --> 00:58:34,160
Speaker 1: a larger group. You know, I obviously saw it on

882
00:58:34,200 --> 00:58:39,880
Speaker 1: my own screening. I agree, I yeah, yeah, this is

883
00:58:41,240 --> 00:58:44,600
Speaker 1: I want to see universities. Yeah yeah, Well they.

884
00:58:44,200 --> 00:58:47,720
Speaker 3: Are at seventy markets right now and they I think

885
00:58:47,720 --> 00:58:50,400
Speaker 3: they will expand and I hope it will.

886
00:58:50,440 --> 00:58:52,760
Speaker 1: Do you know where where is it going to be

887
00:58:52,760 --> 00:58:54,080
Speaker 1: streamed eventually? Do you know?

888
00:58:55,000 --> 00:58:59,800
Speaker 3: No, we are concentrating on the theatrical.

889
00:58:59,280 --> 00:59:02,280
Speaker 1: Run, gotcha, But at some point it will be available

890
00:59:02,280 --> 00:59:05,040
Speaker 1: for people as well. Right well, when it does, I'll

891
00:59:05,240 --> 00:59:08,720
Speaker 1: certainly advertise it away. Raul, this is this is a pleasure,

892
00:59:08,920 --> 00:59:13,240
Speaker 1: Thank you, sir. M hmmm mm hmm