Speaker 1: This episode is sponsored by FX's Fleischman Is in Trouble,
Speaker 1: starring Jesse Eisenberg, Claire Danes, Lizzie Kaplan, and Adam Brodie.
Speaker 1: The strama tells the story of recently divorced Toby Fleischmann,
Speaker 1: who dies into the world of app bass dating with
Speaker 1: the kind of success he never had in his youth.
Speaker 1: Then his ex wife disappears, leaving him with their two
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Speaker 1: in Trouble, streaming November seventeenth only on Hulu. Good morning, peeps,
Speaker 1: and welcome to Okay Epp Daily with Meet your Girl
Speaker 1: Danielle Moody recording from the Brooklyn Bunker. Because you know
Speaker 1: the toe, COVID and mass shootings. Nonetheless, folks, I have
Speaker 1: started to ask a question that you're going to hear
Speaker 1: me ask today's guest Robert Jones Jr. Who is the
Speaker 1: author of the Profits and if you remember we had
Speaker 1: Robert on I want to say the beginning of this year.
Speaker 1: It could be the end of last year. Time. It's
Speaker 1: a social construct. But the question that I'm asking, and
Speaker 1: I just post it on TikTok and again, if you're
Speaker 1: not following me on TikTok or on TikTok it's a
Speaker 1: wonderful way to waste time. But also there's a lot
Speaker 1: of really good political content on TikTok. So at Danielle
Speaker 1: Moody Underscore is how you can find me there everywhere
Speaker 1: else you can find me on social media at D
Speaker 1: two cents. But the question that I've been asking is
Speaker 1: do people feel like it is time to start seriously
Speaker 1: considering leaving the United States? And I don't say that
Speaker 1: to be hyperbolic or to come from a place of privilege,
Speaker 1: because the freedom and the financial ability to be able
Speaker 1: to pick up and leave is a privilege. And I
Speaker 1: asked Robert, and I'm kind of asking a lot of
Speaker 1: folks this Pride season, particularly those that are black and queer,
Speaker 1: about whether or not it's something that they're even considering.
Speaker 1: And a lot of people, I'm really surprised and also alarmed,
Speaker 1: are coming back to me and saying yes, that they
Speaker 1: are considering leaving, that they are beginning to do research
Speaker 1: on what it means to be an ex pat in
Speaker 1: certain countries and communities. And for those of you who've
Speaker 1: been listening to the show for a long time, you
Speaker 1: know that my sister has been an ex pat for
Speaker 1: the last twelve years. She's returning to the United States
Speaker 1: in June for the first time to live in twelve years.
Speaker 1: She's coming back to a really different country than the
Speaker 1: one that she left. The one that she left had
Speaker 1: just elected a black man to be President of the
Speaker 1: United States. The country that she left was advancing in
Speaker 1: so many different ways, whether it had been marriage equality,
Speaker 1: or trans rights or women's rights. We've been moving forward.
Speaker 1: And of course, you know my sister Nicole, she comes
Speaker 1: back and forth to the United States every year, so
Speaker 1: it's not like this as a shock, but it's just
Speaker 1: to say that while she's been gone and living abroad,
Speaker 1: the United States has changed drastically and changed drastically for
Speaker 1: the worse. And you know, I am somebody who's not afraid,
Speaker 1: as you all know, to tell the fucking truth and
Speaker 1: to say, you know, there are some times when I'll
Speaker 1: say things that I've said over the years which woke
Speaker 1: af began because of Trump, began because I saw the
Speaker 1: direction that this country was willing to head post our reconstruction.
Speaker 1: To point out, which is what I will refer to
Speaker 1: as the Obama years, I started woke af because I said,
Speaker 1: people need to wake the flock up. Like these people,
Speaker 1: these white supremacsts, these Christian fundamentalists, these cult members, They're
Speaker 1: not going quietly into the good good night. They are
Speaker 1: going to go clawing and screaming, and they want to
Speaker 1: cause as much fucking harm as possible physically, emotionally, mentally,
Speaker 1: and spiritually to those that they don't deem to be
Speaker 1: human or worthy right to exist. And so when you
Speaker 1: see that the direction that things have taken is it
Speaker 1: has moved so far from rhetoric to policy to acts
Speaker 1: of violence that we are now losing the ability to
Speaker 1: keep track of because they are happening so frequently. What
Speaker 1: alternative do you see? And so that's the question that
Speaker 1: I'll ask Robert, and it's a question that I'm asking myself,
Speaker 1: and I'm having conversations with my own family about you know,
Speaker 1: I don't want you to think that I am, you know,
Speaker 1: being crazy, or you don't think that things are going
Speaker 1: to get this bad. But there was a small, significant
Speaker 1: time period in which the people of Germany fled right
Speaker 1: where they fled because they saw what was happening to
Speaker 1: their country. They saw what Hitler was doing, and they
Speaker 1: did not want to stick around to find out how
Speaker 1: bad it was going to get. And those are people
Speaker 1: who lived right, who didn't end up in concent dying
Speaker 1: in concentration camps, or you know, being able to survive
Speaker 1: that kind of torture. We're not going to have the
Speaker 1: world intervene in the way that the world, first of all,
Speaker 1: took six million Jewish people to fucking die before the
Speaker 1: world did intervene. And if we're probably honest about it,
Speaker 1: it was more so about the economic prosperity of Europe
Speaker 1: and the United States then it was the actual lives
Speaker 1: of those that were being targeted Jewish people and others.
Speaker 1: So if we are now a backsliding democracy, if there
Speaker 1: are only but a handful of actual strong democracies that
Speaker 1: are left in this world, and we are seeing each
Speaker 1: and every day and increase in mass shootings, our schools
Speaker 1: are not safe, our places of worship are not safe,
Speaker 1: our grocery stores are not safe, the movie theaters are
Speaker 1: not safe. COVID is still a thing, racial hatred is growing,
Speaker 1: and the Democrats who are supposedly in power are not
Speaker 1: going to do anything about it. Then what is our recourse?
Speaker 1: And for me right now, it is starting to think
Speaker 1: about where else can I live and where else can
Speaker 1: I thrive. My conversation with Robert, we will talk about
Speaker 1: James Baldwin and how James Baldwin left the United States
Speaker 1: because there was going to be no way that he
Speaker 1: was going to be able to write and create and
Speaker 1: to even imagine what it was that we needed to
Speaker 1: do as a nation if he had to be worried
Speaker 1: about his own day to day survival. Right, So I
Speaker 1: think about that as a creative I think about the
Speaker 1: way I feel so weighed down now, and we haven't
Speaker 1: tumbled all the way down the rabbit hole yet. We're
Speaker 1: in a free fall, but we haven't hit the rock bottom,
Speaker 1: And so I think about how exhausted I am, how
Speaker 1: I'm worried about my own mental health, how I've been
Speaker 1: sharing on this show and others about my mental and
Speaker 1: emotional stability, an ability to continue to do this type
Speaker 1: of work when it isn't just reporting the news, right,
Speaker 1: this is what we are all currently live from. So
Speaker 1: there's no way to do this work and be detached
Speaker 1: from it when every fiber of my being is attached
Speaker 1: to our ability to have equity in this country, so
Speaker 1: you know. Funny enough. On TikTok, I had asked you
Speaker 1: the question as well. So many people responded and have
Speaker 1: said that they are looking at Uruguay, South Africa. Portugal
Speaker 1: came up a number of times, and I'm like, what
Speaker 1: is it you all know about Portugal that I don't.
Speaker 1: I've been to Portugal. It was absolutely beautiful. I loved it.
Speaker 1: I love the food. The country is gorgeous. I don't
Speaker 1: know anything about how to speak Portuguese. I don't know
Speaker 1: anything about the treatment of black people in that country,
Speaker 1: their laws around LGBTQ people. I know nothing. But I
Speaker 1: thought it was really interesting that in my comments section
Speaker 1: that so many people had said Portugal. So if you
Speaker 1: know something about Portugal, please do share if you why
Speaker 1: you think it is a safe haven and why it's
Speaker 1: on your list of places to go, if it is
Speaker 1: in fact on your list. But folks, you know, the
Speaker 1: more people that I talk to, the more worried I'm becoming.
Speaker 1: The more worried I'm becoming that I'm not hyperbolic, that
Speaker 1: maybe this ship doesn't turn around right, that maybe we
Speaker 1: actually are on the Titanic and what Democrats are doing
Speaker 1: is just rearranging the deck chairs and not recognizing that
Speaker 1: the iceberg is the Republican Party, and the water that
Speaker 1: is being taken on by the Titanic, which is America,
Speaker 1: is white supremacy, and that it is everywhere, and Democrats
Speaker 1: are refusing to acknowledge this very clear reality. Instead, I heard, oh,
Speaker 1: we're going to focus on inflation and gas prices. Okay,
Speaker 1: that's great, because those issues are important. But do you
Speaker 1: know what else is important? The ability to go to
Speaker 1: the gas pump and to the grocery store and not
Speaker 1: be shot dead. Just an idea. So you know, folks,
Speaker 1: I am worried. And you know, it's interesting because we
Speaker 1: are watching the war still unfold in Ukraine at the
Speaker 1: hands of Russia, and we're watching some of these people
Speaker 1: that have decided to stay and fight and others that
Speaker 1: have fled. And you know, those people that fled may
Speaker 1: never see their country again. Right, They may never step
Speaker 1: foot in Ukraine, and if they do, it will not
Speaker 1: be the Ukraine that they left. And I'm starting to
Speaker 1: think that way about America. And while we are not
Speaker 1: under rolling tank attacks, we are under rolling policy attacks.
Speaker 1: And while some have referred as Michelle Goldberg did in
Speaker 1: a recent New York Times off ed as US being
Speaker 1: in a cold war with the Republicans. I don't think
Speaker 1: that there is anything cold about this war. It isn't
Speaker 1: just a war of words. They are instituting policy, and
Speaker 1: they are ginning up their base, which is a base
Speaker 1: of violent white supremacist to take action. Right. The insurrection
Speaker 1: wasn't a mistake for them. It was plan B. And
Speaker 1: Plan B is still on the table and still unfolding.
Speaker 1: So if we know all of these things to be true,
Speaker 1: then what is going to be that thing that sends
Speaker 1: us over the edge where we begin to see a
Speaker 1: mass exodus from this country? And personally, I don't want
Speaker 1: to wait until I have to sneak out of the
Speaker 1: country because our freedom of movement is gone. So listen
Speaker 1: to the conversation coming next with our friend Robert Jones, Junior,
Speaker 1: author of The Prophets and brilliant, brilliant intellectual thinker of
Speaker 1: issues of race and gender, sexual identity, orientation, and just
Speaker 1: overall a humanitarian, someone who thinks about us as humans.
Speaker 1: But again I post the question for you, what would
Speaker 1: it take for you to leave the United States? Is
Speaker 1: it's something that you're even considering and if it is
Speaker 1: in the back of your mind, what is it that
Speaker 1: you think would move it to the forefront. Coming up next,
Speaker 1: my conversation with Robert Jones Jr. It's no secret that
Speaker 1: the news is horsepill hard to swallow. Thankfully, there's The
Speaker 1: Bituation Room podcast, hosted by comedian and commentator Francesca free
Speaker 1: Erntini for a lighter take on the heavy stuff. Each week,
Speaker 1: The Bituation Room brings you progressive comedians, experts, and activists
Speaker 1: to break down the issues in a way that won't
Speaker 1: just leave you crying under a weighted blanket. Get The
Speaker 1: Bituation Room on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, and streaming on
Speaker 1: YouTube and Twitch. Hey, I'm David. Plots of Slates Political Gabfest.
Speaker 1: As another election season accelerates, it can be tricky to
Speaker 1: sort through all the noise and the news. Each week
Speaker 1: on the Gapfest, John Dickerson, Emily Bathlon and I decipher
Speaker 1: the headlines, break down the races, and tell you what
Speaker 1: issues really matter. We do not always agree, we definitely
Speaker 1: do not always agree, but we always deliver thoughtful debate
Speaker 1: and we always have a good time. So subscribe to
Speaker 1: Slate's Political Gapfest New episodes every Thursday. Folks, I am
Speaker 1: so happy to welcome back to Woke a f friend
Speaker 1: of mine in the social sphere. You probably know him
Speaker 1: as Son of Baldwin on Twitter and on Instagram. Robert
Speaker 1: Jones Junior is also the author of The Prophets and
Speaker 1: one of the most profound voices I think that I
Speaker 1: have heard and read in quite some time that paints
Speaker 1: a picture of our humanity that I think is so
Speaker 1: missing now. Robert, I don't even know where to begin,
Speaker 1: because so much has transpired since our last conversation. I
Speaker 1: am grateful for the opportunity that we get to share
Speaker 1: our thoughts in social media, you know, on different platforms,
Speaker 1: back and forth. But how are you feeling this season,
Speaker 1: this Pride season? What are you feeling as a black
Speaker 1: queer man in America right now? About where we are
Speaker 1: and who you are? Well, first of all, the legendary
Speaker 1: icon Danielle Moody, thank you so much for having me
Speaker 1: your show. I was telling you before that you, to
Speaker 1: me are the vital voice of this generation. You are
Speaker 1: saying the things that no one else is saying. You're
Speaker 1: approaching the truth which with such rigor and vigor. So
Speaker 1: thank you for all that you're doing. How I feel
Speaker 1: as a black queer person right now is under siege
Speaker 1: but also filled with the spirit of resistance. What sums
Speaker 1: up my resistance? In fact, I just saw on Instagram
Speaker 1: the US Marines posted a pride post. It was a
Speaker 1: camouflage helmet with rainbow bullets attached to the side of
Speaker 1: the helmet. And that is the danger of being a
Speaker 1: black queer person in a white supremacist, capitalist patriarchy. They
Speaker 1: find ways to make you like them so that your
Speaker 1: what was normally your resistance becomes your complicity. And so
Speaker 1: I'm fighting against that internally and externally. You know, I
Speaker 1: saw the image. The image was shared with me, the
Speaker 1: military image that you're talking about, and I said, my goodness,
Speaker 1: the tactlessness. Right Like, First of all, you know, that
Speaker 1: image was put up in Tulsa. Hadn't happened yet, the
Speaker 1: shooting at the hospital hadn't happened yet. But I thought
Speaker 1: to myself, this is not what my pride looks like.
Speaker 1: And this is not how you show um, how you
Speaker 1: show your connectedness to community or even lift up those
Speaker 1: LGBTQ plus military members. Right it's talking about Oh, it's
Speaker 1: gonna be murder, but let's make it rainbow. I like,
Speaker 1: in my mind, like, that's that's what I saw. It's like, oh,
Speaker 1: it's gonna be white supremacy. But let's disc go it
Speaker 1: up a bit. And so I ask you, you know,
Speaker 1: pride initially started as a riot, right It was black
Speaker 1: queer people, black trans women who were at the forefront
Speaker 1: of the riot that happened at Stonewall here in New
Speaker 1: York where we are, because they had had enough of
Speaker 1: being beaten, of being abused by the state right that
Speaker 1: they were supposed to protect them. And so what do
Speaker 1: you feel about the way in which pride started those
Speaker 1: many decades ago? And where you see that pride, the
Speaker 1: concept of pride has arrived at the moment that we
Speaker 1: are in now. When I think about Marcia and Sylvia
Speaker 1: and all those elders and ancestors who threw bricks through
Speaker 1: windows and resisted arrest and we're fighting in the streets
Speaker 1: literally for their lives against a state that didn't even
Speaker 1: recognize their humanity, I am inspired to do what I
Speaker 1: can as an artist to remember uplift and remind the
Speaker 1: society that what liberation looks like is not always pretty.
Speaker 1: It's not always clean. It's not always holding hands and
Speaker 1: singing songs. Sometimes it's punching your oppressor dead in his face.
Speaker 1: That's what it is sometimes. And you talk about this
Speaker 1: a lot too, when when we're talking about how weak
Speaker 1: the democratic opposition to the conservative agenda has been, how
Speaker 1: no one is saying like what needs to be said.
Speaker 1: No one's saying the obvious, no one's telling the truth.
Speaker 1: The Democrats are playing tiddly winks while the Republicans are
Speaker 1: playing destroyal monsters like it's it's just this weird kind
Speaker 1: of thing. And so when I see now that pride
Speaker 1: has become a T shirt, a party, rainbow floats, and
Speaker 1: a commodified event, Marcia and Sylvia must be rolling in
Speaker 1: their graves because the spirit of resistance seems to have
Speaker 1: been co opted and turned into this thing where it's now.
Speaker 1: We will accept you, you homosexuals, you transgender people, if
Speaker 1: you're more like us so, if you consume rapidly, if
Speaker 1: you agree with our militarized agenda, global agenda, if you
Speaker 1: uphold conservative values, if you buy into our way of
Speaker 1: seeing the world, then we might because at any moment
Speaker 1: we can turn on you, like this Supreme Court is
Speaker 1: letting us know um and that is that is how
Speaker 1: revolutions are destroyed, is because the people in power recognize
Speaker 1: um a need and some of the people who are
Speaker 1: oppressed for a little bit of comfort, Yeah, a little
Speaker 1: bit of a reprieve yea, And they offer it to you,
Speaker 1: They dangle it in front of you like a carrot,
Speaker 1: in exchange for your dignity and your right to be
Speaker 1: a full human person as you are. And so I'm
Speaker 1: utterly disappointed. Do you think that our desire for ease
Speaker 1: in a certain way, right for ease in our lives?
Speaker 1: And I'm not saying that we're not deserving, just by
Speaker 1: virtue of our birth to live a life that is joyful,
Speaker 1: that is that is happy. But do you think that
Speaker 1: this sense of ease has fueled the assimilation that has
Speaker 1: us not see the current iteration of our society as
Speaker 1: a point of resistance for our community? Right that that
Speaker 1: that that's that that that and and if you if
Speaker 1: you just have enough, right, because that's what that's what
Speaker 1: you're saying, like that carried it's just enough. Right, It's
Speaker 1: not too much, it's not it's sure, it's hell, it's
Speaker 1: not the most It's just enough. For you, so you're
Speaker 1: not drowning if your nose is sticking out of the
Speaker 1: water and there is still air to breathe. And I'm wondering,
Speaker 1: how do you foresee or is there a possibility for
Speaker 1: us as the LGBTQ plus community to make a switch,
Speaker 1: to make a transition from this assimilation and life of
Speaker 1: ease to that of resistance. You see, you, you, you
Speaker 1: tackle the you ask the essential question because this is
Speaker 1: the danger of proximity to your oppressor. On the one hand,
Speaker 1: you're close enough for them to destroy. On the other hand,
Speaker 1: you're close enough to them so that you might escape
Speaker 1: being destroyed because you're too close to them and they
Speaker 1: don't want to possibly be a residual damage. So you're
Speaker 1: in this weird place where you don't want to suffer.
Speaker 1: You're tired of suffering, You're you're exhausted from suffering, and
Speaker 1: you've been offered this brief moment of reprieve. So what
Speaker 1: do you do? Do you continue to suffer or do
Speaker 1: you take that brief moment of reprieve? Most people, I
Speaker 1: wager will take the brief moment of reprieve, and that
Speaker 1: is what the oppressors, the powerbrokers these robber barons count
Speaker 1: on is that you are. They have so thoroughly exhausted
Speaker 1: you that the minute they lay down a piece of
Speaker 1: a pillow for you to lay your head on, and
Speaker 1: you're gonna lay your head on it. It takes somewhat
Speaker 1: of impeccable um personality to say, you know what, fucked
Speaker 1: that pillow? Because if I keep fighting, eventually I'm going
Speaker 1: to have the whole bed right. And there's there's too
Speaker 1: few of us, you know. I was a couple of
Speaker 1: weeks ago was in conversation with another thought leader that
Speaker 1: I really enjoy speaking with, which is doctor Brittany Cooper, uh,
Speaker 1: associate professor at Rutger's, And we were talking about you know,
Speaker 1: her or her family, uh and her and gun culture
Speaker 1: in Louisiana where she um was reared and raised and
Speaker 1: her family still is, and the need for this kind
Speaker 1: of protection for black people, black family's, black property because
Speaker 1: of the consistent, unrelenting threat of white supremacy and what
Speaker 1: that looks like in different states and cities and places
Speaker 1: in rural places and cities. And so I'm curious as
Speaker 1: to your thoughts about every time Robert, there is a
Speaker 1: mass shooting, gun sales in this country go up. The
Speaker 1: only time that we ever had any kinds of genuine,
Speaker 1: sensible gun regulation was when the Black Panthers decided to
Speaker 1: exercise their right to bear arms. What do you make
Speaker 1: of black people, black queer people as well? Thinking about
Speaker 1: considering the fact that we've moved out of the talking
Speaker 1: phase of this project, and that in order for me
Speaker 1: to ensure to some extent my own safety, and those
Speaker 1: are the people that I love. If my oppressor is
Speaker 1: bearing arms, isn't it my responsibility to do the same. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: I feel that we cannot. We can. No longer we
Speaker 1: shall overcome our oppressor into thinking of us as civilized
Speaker 1: human beings. I just saw a clip of James Baldwin
Speaker 1: speaking of queer icons where he said, you know what
Speaker 1: white people mean by progress is how fast I become white.
Speaker 1: And then he goes on to say, I've drank my
Speaker 1: share of dry martiniz, I've proven myself civilized in every
Speaker 1: way that I can, and you still don't see me
Speaker 1: as civilized. So I might as well act like a nigger.
Speaker 1: And what I interpreted that to mean was you want
Speaker 1: to pull a gun, then I'm gonna pull a gun.
Speaker 1: Two I'm gonna pull two guns just to show you.
Speaker 1: So if the only language you can speak is violence,
Speaker 1: even when I'm speaking to you with peace, you leave
Speaker 1: me no choice. And if we are in a situation
Speaker 1: increasingly such that their feel feels like our choices are
Speaker 1: shrinking and are becoming limited and scarce, where do you
Speaker 1: foresee Robert us going right? Because my thing, what I've
Speaker 1: been saying, and what I say on my videos, what
Speaker 1: I say on these shows, is that a pressure, the
Speaker 1: oppressor goes for the low hanging fruit first, the people
Speaker 1: that they believe are the unwanted. So you're gonna go
Speaker 1: after trans youth, right, you big bade straight cis gender
Speaker 1: white man are going to go and attack children, right,
Speaker 1: You're gonna go and attack policies of people, not the
Speaker 1: entirety of the LGBTQ community, but the part that we
Speaker 1: are still quote trying to figure out right that doesn't
Speaker 1: really fit anywhere, which is a transgender community. And so
Speaker 1: if that is the case, then it's like, and they
Speaker 1: keep picking off marginalized, marginalized, it's not too long before
Speaker 1: they get to everybody else. And so how do you
Speaker 1: forstee through your art through all of these different mediums
Speaker 1: waking up the public to the threat that is now
Speaker 1: our doorstep. One of the horrible things about being an
Speaker 1: American is the profound narcissism of that identity come on
Speaker 1: that we cannot see outside our own experience. For nothing
Speaker 1: in the world, we lack empathy, and so we don't
Speaker 1: understand a threat until it's on our own doorstep. We
Speaker 1: could see it across the street and swear it's not
Speaker 1: going to come our direction. We could see it in
Speaker 1: the street, we could see it walking up the sidewalk,
Speaker 1: and we won't say anything until it's right at our doorstep,
Speaker 1: and then suddenly we're like, oh my god, what happened?
Speaker 1: What I foresee in this country is rather bleak. I
Speaker 1: think it's not going to be five or ten years
Speaker 1: before the United States as we know it crumbles, and
Speaker 1: that it's replaced by a fastest oppressive openly so because
Speaker 1: now it's kind of like on the on the d
Speaker 1: L in some respects, where people like you and I,
Speaker 1: the people at the margins, black people, queer people, trans people,
Speaker 1: disabled people will be seen as ultimately disposable, if not
Speaker 1: re enslaved, and you are the clarion call and That's
Speaker 1: why I point so many people into your direction, because
Speaker 1: you have this uncanny ability to connect all the dots
Speaker 1: to show how the dominoes fall. And I feel like
Speaker 1: you have been screaming into a void because I'm like,
Speaker 1: is anybody else listening to how Danielle is tying all
Speaker 1: of these things together to tell us what's coming? And
Speaker 1: that's why I share your stuff so often, because I'm
Speaker 1: trying to get people to wake up. But I don't
Speaker 1: know any other way than saying it and telling the
Speaker 1: truth out loud to get people to wake up to
Speaker 1: people who want to be asleep. You know, one of
Speaker 1: the things that I have been thinking about, Robert, is
Speaker 1: the fact that James Baldwin ancestor Baldwin left this country
Speaker 1: because he could not find himself under duress with the
Speaker 1: clearness of mind, to be able to create, to be
Speaker 1: able to discuss what was happening. Because when you are
Speaker 1: in it and survival is your is your only hope,
Speaker 1: how can you see anything else, let alone share those
Speaker 1: thoughts with others. And so he left. I want to
Speaker 1: know what you think about what you thought about his
Speaker 1: leaving right, and whether or not we write as this
Speaker 1: small collective of of of of black thought leaders, writers, artists, academics, activists.
Speaker 1: Is the writing on the wall for us? I would say, so, um,
Speaker 1: you know. Initially, when I, you know, was doing my
Speaker 1: research on James Baldwin and learning about him and discovered
Speaker 1: that he left the country, I saw it as a
Speaker 1: kind of betrayal. Initial so did I, yep um, And
Speaker 1: I thought, well, why would you leave when you know
Speaker 1: what the community is dealing with here? But as I
Speaker 1: have grown up, as I have matured, I've come to
Speaker 1: understand that it was necessary for him to leave. He
Speaker 1: could not have been so incisive, so clear about the
Speaker 1: American condition within the confines of America, because he would
Speaker 1: have been under assault at all times, and so his
Speaker 1: attention would have to be split between getting this work
Speaker 1: done and protecting himself from state forces. I have three
Speaker 1: of three friends in my circle and family in my
Speaker 1: circle who have left the United States for good. My
Speaker 1: cousin Kaden is in Japan, my friend Will is in
Speaker 1: the United Arab Emirates, and my friend Tres in South Africa,
Speaker 1: and they refuse to come back. They said they cannot
Speaker 1: breathe in this country, that it is they feel under
Speaker 1: total menace when they are in this country and they
Speaker 1: are all now in these other places flourishing. I think
Speaker 1: of Sonya Renee Taylor, who left the United States and
Speaker 1: now she's in New Zealand and she's thriving. There is
Speaker 1: something to be said about picking up and leaving. And
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that wherever we go is going to
Speaker 1: be perfect, it's going to be utopia, because there's no
Speaker 1: such thing. But there is something I believe to be
Speaker 1: said about escaping the land of your particular oppressor, who
Speaker 1: is unrelenting, who refuses to see your humanity, refuses to
Speaker 1: have any empathy, and doesn't know what compassion means. What
Speaker 1: do you think, Robert, that James Baldwin would say of
Speaker 1: this moment? Because in my mind, now that he has passed,
Speaker 1: I look back at his writings, and actually right now
Speaker 1: the interview that he did, that Nikki Giovanni did with
Speaker 1: him many many moons ago, is now on stage in
Speaker 1: New York. But I think about the way in which
Speaker 1: he foresaw and would tell people in the way that
Speaker 1: I do, because much more, much more eloquent and articulate
Speaker 1: and less curse words than I offer. But what do
Speaker 1: you think that he would say would it be, and
Speaker 1: I told you so would What do you think he
Speaker 1: would make of this moment? I'm so glad you asked
Speaker 1: me that question, Danielle, because toward the end of his
Speaker 1: writing career, the people who used to praise Baldwin began
Speaker 1: to really negatively criticize him and say things like he
Speaker 1: was bitter and repetitive. And I went back to those
Speaker 1: later works of his, not the ones that get all
Speaker 1: the attention, like The Fire Next Time such, but his
Speaker 1: later things like The Evidence of Things Not Seen, which
Speaker 1: was his last published collection. Baldwin basically said, I have
Speaker 1: known these people for sixty years, Over sixty years of
Speaker 1: my life, I've been writing to them and boring them
Speaker 1: to please grow up, um, to please find compassion, to
Speaker 1: please be humane, and I have decided they're incapable of it.
Speaker 1: So he would exactly tell us right now, what did
Speaker 1: I tell you? If in fact these people are incapable,
Speaker 1: what does that say for the rest of us? Because
Speaker 1: we all can't leave. We all don't have the resources
Speaker 1: the wherewithal to be able to leave. So if the diet,
Speaker 1: if the diagnosis is if I if I were a
Speaker 1: doctor and I'm diagnosing America, and I'm diagnosing the condition
Speaker 1: of whiteness, and I'm saying, well, this is it, right,
Speaker 1: You're in the fourth stage, right, this is this? You're
Speaker 1: you you this this illness is terminal? What is that?
Speaker 1: What does that say to the entirety of the product? Jack?
Speaker 1: Then it basically says, if you're not Harriet Tubman, you're screwed.
Speaker 1: So that means we are the ones of us who
Speaker 1: can't leave. We are in danger, girl, That's what that means.
Speaker 1: And I hate to be so bleak about it, but
Speaker 1: I don't see any way out. I don't Maybe I
Speaker 1: just don't have the intellectual capability, I don't have the optimism.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure what it is, but I don't see
Speaker 1: a way out for those of us who can't escape.
Speaker 1: I see the longer we remain in this place, the
Speaker 1: quicker we are going to find ourselves in chains again,
Speaker 1: wondering how the hell did this happen? Last question for you, Robert,
Speaker 1: and I just I mean, I honestly, I could talk
Speaker 1: to you all day because you make me feel sane.
Speaker 1: What are you doing to keep your wits about you?
Speaker 1: To keep your spirit? You know? High? And maybe it
Speaker 1: isn't high. Maybe it's just hovering, but how do you
Speaker 1: continue to provide self care for yourself when you recognize
Speaker 1: that everything actually is as bleak as we're saying that
Speaker 1: it is. You know, Danielle. What gives me hope are
Speaker 1: people like you, And that's the honest truth. People who
Speaker 1: are so clear and walk with a complete knowing of
Speaker 1: who they are and the situation as it is, who
Speaker 1: suffers under no delusions. When I listen to you and
Speaker 1: your wonderful podcasts and all the work that you're doing,
Speaker 1: I'm like, there's got to be more Daniells out there somewhere.
Speaker 1: And if there's more Danielle's out there somewhere, then we
Speaker 1: can resist at least for a little while longer. And
Speaker 1: then I go back, of course, to the ancestors. I'm
Speaker 1: rereading Morrison and Baldwin and Alice Walker and Gloria Naylor
Speaker 1: and Octavia Butler. Octavia Butler, as a matter of fact,
Speaker 1: is like an oracle. She was an oracle. Yep. So
Speaker 1: if you want to find if you want to prepare
Speaker 1: yourself for what's coming next, read Octavia Butler. So that's
Speaker 1: where I find my comfort, and the other thing that
Speaker 1: I do because the world is so ugly to bring
Speaker 1: a little beauty into it is. I tend to gardens,
Speaker 1: So I like to garden, plant flowers and things like that,
Speaker 1: just to see something of beauty, to remind myself that
Speaker 1: it doesn't have to be this ugly. Yeah, I do
Speaker 1: the same. You can't see behind me, but my entire
Speaker 1: house is filled with a significant a significant amount of players.
Speaker 1: Because they do they make they make me see that
Speaker 1: time goes on, things will continue to grow, the sun
Speaker 1: does come out, water does remain wet, and you know
Speaker 1: and that there is in nurturing and by nurturing them,
Speaker 1: it does help me with the healing of my heart
Speaker 1: that this country continues to break on a regular basis.
Speaker 1: Robert Jones Junior, thank you so much for making time
Speaker 1: for Woke after making time for me. Thank you so
Speaker 1: much for your kind, beautiful words that you say about me,
Speaker 1: but that you write, that you write and that you
Speaker 1: offer to the world. I just appreciate you so much,
Speaker 1: and I wish you a really hopeful pride, one that
Speaker 1: reminds us of the people we came from and the
Speaker 1: work that's still ahead. All Shay, and thank you so
Speaker 1: much for having me Daniel, It is always a pleasure.
Speaker 1: Get a behind the scenes look at Comedy Central's The
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Speaker 1: Noah on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast or wherever you
Speaker 1: get your podcast. New episodes every Tuesday. That is it
Speaker 1: for me today. Hear friends on Woke app as always
Speaker 1: Power to the people and to all the people. Power,
Speaker 1: get woke and stay woke, as fu, stay well, Stay safe.
Speaker 1: Get a behind the scenes look at Comedy Central's The
Speaker 1: Daily Show on Beyond the Scenes, an original podcast from
Speaker 1: the Daily Show with Trevor Noah. Every week, host Roy
Speaker 1: Wood Junior goes deeper with the notable guests and experts
Speaker 1: from the Emmy Award winning series. Together, they use comedy
Speaker 1: to tackle current topics from gentrifer ka to gun laws
Speaker 1: and take a closer look at how and why these
Speaker 1: topics matter. Listen to Beyond the Scenes from the Daily
Speaker 1: Show with Trevor Noah on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast,
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcast. New episodes every Tuesday.