1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:04,720 Speaker 1: This episode is sponsored by FX's Fleischman Is in Trouble, 2 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:09,440 Speaker 1: starring Jesse Eisenberg, Claire Danes, Lizzie Kaplan, and Adam Brodie. 3 00:00:09,680 --> 00:00:12,639 Speaker 1: The strama tells the story of recently divorced Toby Fleischmann, 4 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:15,320 Speaker 1: who dies into the world of app bass dating with 5 00:00:15,360 --> 00:00:17,360 Speaker 1: the kind of success he never had in his youth. 6 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:21,280 Speaker 1: Then his ex wife disappears, leaving him with their two 7 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:24,880 Speaker 1: children and no hint of her return effectus. Fleischman Is 8 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:42,880 Speaker 1: in Trouble, streaming November seventeenth only on Hulu. Good morning, peeps, 9 00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:45,400 Speaker 1: and welcome to Okay Epp Daily with Meet your Girl 10 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:48,839 Speaker 1: Danielle Moody recording from the Brooklyn Bunker. Because you know 11 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:55,360 Speaker 1: the toe, COVID and mass shootings. Nonetheless, folks, I have 12 00:00:55,480 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 1: started to ask a question that you're going to hear 13 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:04,040 Speaker 1: me ask today's guest Robert Jones Jr. Who is the 14 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:07,199 Speaker 1: author of the Profits and if you remember we had 15 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:10,240 Speaker 1: Robert on I want to say the beginning of this year. 16 00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:13,000 Speaker 1: It could be the end of last year. Time. It's 17 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:17,399 Speaker 1: a social construct. But the question that I'm asking, and 18 00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:20,000 Speaker 1: I just post it on TikTok and again, if you're 19 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:22,760 Speaker 1: not following me on TikTok or on TikTok it's a 20 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:25,840 Speaker 1: wonderful way to waste time. But also there's a lot 21 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:30,119 Speaker 1: of really good political content on TikTok. So at Danielle 22 00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:34,000 Speaker 1: Moody Underscore is how you can find me there everywhere 23 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:35,640 Speaker 1: else you can find me on social media at D 24 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:40,360 Speaker 1: two cents. But the question that I've been asking is 25 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:46,320 Speaker 1: do people feel like it is time to start seriously 26 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 1: considering leaving the United States? And I don't say that 27 00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:56,600 Speaker 1: to be hyperbolic or to come from a place of privilege, 28 00:01:56,640 --> 00:02:00,600 Speaker 1: because the freedom and the financial ability to be able 29 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 1: to pick up and leave is a privilege. And I 30 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 1: asked Robert, and I'm kind of asking a lot of 31 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:12,799 Speaker 1: folks this Pride season, particularly those that are black and queer, 32 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:16,280 Speaker 1: about whether or not it's something that they're even considering. 33 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:22,120 Speaker 1: And a lot of people, I'm really surprised and also alarmed, 34 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:25,440 Speaker 1: are coming back to me and saying yes, that they 35 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:29,240 Speaker 1: are considering leaving, that they are beginning to do research 36 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:33,120 Speaker 1: on what it means to be an ex pat in 37 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:36,840 Speaker 1: certain countries and communities. And for those of you who've 38 00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 1: been listening to the show for a long time, you 39 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:41,960 Speaker 1: know that my sister has been an ex pat for 40 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:45,080 Speaker 1: the last twelve years. She's returning to the United States 41 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:49,080 Speaker 1: in June for the first time to live in twelve years. 42 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:52,160 Speaker 1: She's coming back to a really different country than the 43 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:54,440 Speaker 1: one that she left. The one that she left had 44 00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:58,360 Speaker 1: just elected a black man to be President of the 45 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:03,920 Speaker 1: United States. The country that she left was advancing in 46 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:07,040 Speaker 1: so many different ways, whether it had been marriage equality, 47 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:10,680 Speaker 1: or trans rights or women's rights. We've been moving forward. 48 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 1: And of course, you know my sister Nicole, she comes 49 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 1: back and forth to the United States every year, so 50 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:18,400 Speaker 1: it's not like this as a shock, but it's just 51 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:23,640 Speaker 1: to say that while she's been gone and living abroad, 52 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:28,680 Speaker 1: the United States has changed drastically and changed drastically for 53 00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:33,200 Speaker 1: the worse. And you know, I am somebody who's not afraid, 54 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 1: as you all know, to tell the fucking truth and 55 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:38,240 Speaker 1: to say, you know, there are some times when I'll 56 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:41,880 Speaker 1: say things that I've said over the years which woke 57 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:46,600 Speaker 1: af began because of Trump, began because I saw the 58 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:51,760 Speaker 1: direction that this country was willing to head post our reconstruction. 59 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:54,240 Speaker 1: To point out, which is what I will refer to 60 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 1: as the Obama years, I started woke af because I said, 61 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 1: people need to wake the flock up. Like these people, 62 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:06,720 Speaker 1: these white supremacsts, these Christian fundamentalists, these cult members, They're 63 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:10,200 Speaker 1: not going quietly into the good good night. They are 64 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:15,040 Speaker 1: going to go clawing and screaming, and they want to 65 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 1: cause as much fucking harm as possible physically, emotionally, mentally, 66 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:23,719 Speaker 1: and spiritually to those that they don't deem to be 67 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:29,800 Speaker 1: human or worthy right to exist. And so when you 68 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 1: see that the direction that things have taken is it 69 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 1: has moved so far from rhetoric to policy to acts 70 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:45,320 Speaker 1: of violence that we are now losing the ability to 71 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:50,760 Speaker 1: keep track of because they are happening so frequently. What 72 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:55,040 Speaker 1: alternative do you see? And so that's the question that 73 00:04:55,640 --> 00:04:59,279 Speaker 1: I'll ask Robert, and it's a question that I'm asking myself, 74 00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:03,480 Speaker 1: and I'm having conversations with my own family about you know, 75 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:07,640 Speaker 1: I don't want you to think that I am, you know, 76 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:09,880 Speaker 1: being crazy, or you don't think that things are going 77 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 1: to get this bad. But there was a small, significant 78 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:19,040 Speaker 1: time period in which the people of Germany fled right 79 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:23,480 Speaker 1: where they fled because they saw what was happening to 80 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:27,800 Speaker 1: their country. They saw what Hitler was doing, and they 81 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:31,359 Speaker 1: did not want to stick around to find out how 82 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 1: bad it was going to get. And those are people 83 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:38,839 Speaker 1: who lived right, who didn't end up in concent dying 84 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:42,160 Speaker 1: in concentration camps, or you know, being able to survive 85 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:46,120 Speaker 1: that kind of torture. We're not going to have the 86 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:48,920 Speaker 1: world intervene in the way that the world, first of all, 87 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:52,719 Speaker 1: took six million Jewish people to fucking die before the 88 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:57,000 Speaker 1: world did intervene. And if we're probably honest about it, 89 00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:01,480 Speaker 1: it was more so about the economic prosperity of Europe 90 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:05,640 Speaker 1: and the United States then it was the actual lives 91 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:10,160 Speaker 1: of those that were being targeted Jewish people and others. 92 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 1: So if we are now a backsliding democracy, if there 93 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 1: are only but a handful of actual strong democracies that 94 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:23,719 Speaker 1: are left in this world, and we are seeing each 95 00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:27,000 Speaker 1: and every day and increase in mass shootings, our schools 96 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:29,800 Speaker 1: are not safe, our places of worship are not safe, 97 00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 1: our grocery stores are not safe, the movie theaters are 98 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:37,800 Speaker 1: not safe. COVID is still a thing, racial hatred is growing, 99 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:42,120 Speaker 1: and the Democrats who are supposedly in power are not 100 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:45,040 Speaker 1: going to do anything about it. Then what is our recourse? 101 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:47,960 Speaker 1: And for me right now, it is starting to think 102 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:50,480 Speaker 1: about where else can I live and where else can 103 00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:55,440 Speaker 1: I thrive. My conversation with Robert, we will talk about 104 00:06:55,520 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 1: James Baldwin and how James Baldwin left the United States 105 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:03,440 Speaker 1: because there was going to be no way that he 106 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:06,360 Speaker 1: was going to be able to write and create and 107 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:11,240 Speaker 1: to even imagine what it was that we needed to 108 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:14,679 Speaker 1: do as a nation if he had to be worried 109 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 1: about his own day to day survival. Right, So I 110 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:23,560 Speaker 1: think about that as a creative I think about the 111 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 1: way I feel so weighed down now, and we haven't 112 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:32,320 Speaker 1: tumbled all the way down the rabbit hole yet. We're 113 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:35,040 Speaker 1: in a free fall, but we haven't hit the rock bottom, 114 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:39,960 Speaker 1: And so I think about how exhausted I am, how 115 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:42,560 Speaker 1: I'm worried about my own mental health, how I've been 116 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:48,240 Speaker 1: sharing on this show and others about my mental and 117 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:53,119 Speaker 1: emotional stability, an ability to continue to do this type 118 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:57,960 Speaker 1: of work when it isn't just reporting the news, right, 119 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:00,520 Speaker 1: this is what we are all currently live from. So 120 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:04,560 Speaker 1: there's no way to do this work and be detached 121 00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:09,200 Speaker 1: from it when every fiber of my being is attached 122 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:13,320 Speaker 1: to our ability to have equity in this country, so 123 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 1: you know. Funny enough. On TikTok, I had asked you 124 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:22,120 Speaker 1: the question as well. So many people responded and have 125 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 1: said that they are looking at Uruguay, South Africa. Portugal 126 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:31,600 Speaker 1: came up a number of times, and I'm like, what 127 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:33,880 Speaker 1: is it you all know about Portugal that I don't. 128 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 1: I've been to Portugal. It was absolutely beautiful. I loved it. 129 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:41,360 Speaker 1: I love the food. The country is gorgeous. I don't 130 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:44,760 Speaker 1: know anything about how to speak Portuguese. I don't know 131 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:47,280 Speaker 1: anything about the treatment of black people in that country, 132 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:51,200 Speaker 1: their laws around LGBTQ people. I know nothing. But I 133 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:53,840 Speaker 1: thought it was really interesting that in my comments section 134 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:57,280 Speaker 1: that so many people had said Portugal. So if you 135 00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:02,080 Speaker 1: know something about Portugal, please do share if you why 136 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 1: you think it is a safe haven and why it's 137 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:07,160 Speaker 1: on your list of places to go, if it is 138 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:11,080 Speaker 1: in fact on your list. But folks, you know, the 139 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:15,160 Speaker 1: more people that I talk to, the more worried I'm becoming. 140 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:20,559 Speaker 1: The more worried I'm becoming that I'm not hyperbolic, that 141 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 1: maybe this ship doesn't turn around right, that maybe we 142 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:29,199 Speaker 1: actually are on the Titanic and what Democrats are doing 143 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:33,679 Speaker 1: is just rearranging the deck chairs and not recognizing that 144 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:41,240 Speaker 1: the iceberg is the Republican Party, and the water that 145 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 1: is being taken on by the Titanic, which is America, 146 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:49,760 Speaker 1: is white supremacy, and that it is everywhere, and Democrats 147 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:55,400 Speaker 1: are refusing to acknowledge this very clear reality. Instead, I heard, oh, 148 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:58,240 Speaker 1: we're going to focus on inflation and gas prices. Okay, 149 00:09:58,280 --> 00:10:00,840 Speaker 1: that's great, because those issues are important. But do you 150 00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:03,400 Speaker 1: know what else is important? The ability to go to 151 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:05,400 Speaker 1: the gas pump and to the grocery store and not 152 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 1: be shot dead. Just an idea. So you know, folks, 153 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:19,960 Speaker 1: I am worried. And you know, it's interesting because we 154 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:23,920 Speaker 1: are watching the war still unfold in Ukraine at the 155 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:27,760 Speaker 1: hands of Russia, and we're watching some of these people 156 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:30,880 Speaker 1: that have decided to stay and fight and others that 157 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:36,520 Speaker 1: have fled. And you know, those people that fled may 158 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:41,560 Speaker 1: never see their country again. Right, They may never step 159 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:44,760 Speaker 1: foot in Ukraine, and if they do, it will not 160 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 1: be the Ukraine that they left. And I'm starting to 161 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:52,440 Speaker 1: think that way about America. And while we are not 162 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:57,720 Speaker 1: under rolling tank attacks, we are under rolling policy attacks. 163 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:02,679 Speaker 1: And while some have referred as Michelle Goldberg did in 164 00:11:02,679 --> 00:11:05,600 Speaker 1: a recent New York Times off ed as US being 165 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 1: in a cold war with the Republicans. I don't think 166 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:11,360 Speaker 1: that there is anything cold about this war. It isn't 167 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 1: just a war of words. They are instituting policy, and 168 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:18,760 Speaker 1: they are ginning up their base, which is a base 169 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:25,959 Speaker 1: of violent white supremacist to take action. Right. The insurrection 170 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:30,240 Speaker 1: wasn't a mistake for them. It was plan B. And 171 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:33,119 Speaker 1: Plan B is still on the table and still unfolding. 172 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:37,040 Speaker 1: So if we know all of these things to be true, 173 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:40,760 Speaker 1: then what is going to be that thing that sends 174 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 1: us over the edge where we begin to see a 175 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:48,520 Speaker 1: mass exodus from this country? And personally, I don't want 176 00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:51,880 Speaker 1: to wait until I have to sneak out of the 177 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:58,240 Speaker 1: country because our freedom of movement is gone. So listen 178 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 1: to the conversation coming next with our friend Robert Jones, Junior, 179 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:10,080 Speaker 1: author of The Prophets and brilliant, brilliant intellectual thinker of 180 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:17,400 Speaker 1: issues of race and gender, sexual identity, orientation, and just 181 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:21,360 Speaker 1: overall a humanitarian, someone who thinks about us as humans. 182 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:24,720 Speaker 1: But again I post the question for you, what would 183 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:28,559 Speaker 1: it take for you to leave the United States? Is 184 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:31,640 Speaker 1: it's something that you're even considering and if it is 185 00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:34,400 Speaker 1: in the back of your mind, what is it that 186 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:38,600 Speaker 1: you think would move it to the forefront. Coming up next, 187 00:12:38,679 --> 00:12:43,880 Speaker 1: my conversation with Robert Jones Jr. It's no secret that 188 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:47,240 Speaker 1: the news is horsepill hard to swallow. Thankfully, there's The 189 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 1: Bituation Room podcast, hosted by comedian and commentator Francesca free 190 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:55,280 Speaker 1: Erntini for a lighter take on the heavy stuff. Each week, 191 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:59,280 Speaker 1: The Bituation Room brings you progressive comedians, experts, and activists 192 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 1: to break down the issues in a way that won't 193 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:03,880 Speaker 1: just leave you crying under a weighted blanket. Get The 194 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:08,000 Speaker 1: Bituation Room on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, and streaming on 195 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:16,280 Speaker 1: YouTube and Twitch. Hey, I'm David. Plots of Slates Political Gabfest. 196 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:20,880 Speaker 1: As another election season accelerates, it can be tricky to 197 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:23,880 Speaker 1: sort through all the noise and the news. Each week 198 00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:26,960 Speaker 1: on the Gapfest, John Dickerson, Emily Bathlon and I decipher 199 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:29,480 Speaker 1: the headlines, break down the races, and tell you what 200 00:13:29,559 --> 00:13:34,079 Speaker 1: issues really matter. We do not always agree, we definitely 201 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:37,640 Speaker 1: do not always agree, but we always deliver thoughtful debate 202 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:40,440 Speaker 1: and we always have a good time. So subscribe to 203 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:45,920 Speaker 1: Slate's Political Gapfest New episodes every Thursday. Folks, I am 204 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 1: so happy to welcome back to Woke a f friend 205 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:56,920 Speaker 1: of mine in the social sphere. You probably know him 206 00:13:56,960 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 1: as Son of Baldwin on Twitter and on Instagram. Robert 207 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:03,720 Speaker 1: Jones Junior is also the author of The Prophets and 208 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:07,800 Speaker 1: one of the most profound voices I think that I 209 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:11,720 Speaker 1: have heard and read in quite some time that paints 210 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:17,280 Speaker 1: a picture of our humanity that I think is so 211 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:23,240 Speaker 1: missing now. Robert, I don't even know where to begin, 212 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:27,520 Speaker 1: because so much has transpired since our last conversation. I 213 00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:30,760 Speaker 1: am grateful for the opportunity that we get to share 214 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:35,360 Speaker 1: our thoughts in social media, you know, on different platforms, 215 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:41,240 Speaker 1: back and forth. But how are you feeling this season, 216 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 1: this Pride season? What are you feeling as a black 217 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:52,120 Speaker 1: queer man in America right now? About where we are 218 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:56,880 Speaker 1: and who you are? Well, first of all, the legendary 219 00:14:57,120 --> 00:14:59,800 Speaker 1: icon Danielle Moody, thank you so much for having me 220 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:03,560 Speaker 1: your show. I was telling you before that you, to 221 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:08,120 Speaker 1: me are the vital voice of this generation. You are 222 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:10,560 Speaker 1: saying the things that no one else is saying. You're 223 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:15,120 Speaker 1: approaching the truth which with such rigor and vigor. So 224 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:19,240 Speaker 1: thank you for all that you're doing. How I feel 225 00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 1: as a black queer person right now is under siege 226 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:29,680 Speaker 1: but also filled with the spirit of resistance. What sums 227 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:34,800 Speaker 1: up my resistance? In fact, I just saw on Instagram 228 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:39,640 Speaker 1: the US Marines posted a pride post. It was a 229 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:46,320 Speaker 1: camouflage helmet with rainbow bullets attached to the side of 230 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:52,520 Speaker 1: the helmet. And that is the danger of being a 231 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 1: black queer person in a white supremacist, capitalist patriarchy. They 232 00:15:57,160 --> 00:16:01,480 Speaker 1: find ways to make you like them so that your 233 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:06,640 Speaker 1: what was normally your resistance becomes your complicity. And so 234 00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 1: I'm fighting against that internally and externally. You know, I 235 00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:18,160 Speaker 1: saw the image. The image was shared with me, the 236 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 1: military image that you're talking about, and I said, my goodness, 237 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:27,560 Speaker 1: the tactlessness. Right Like, First of all, you know, that 238 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:30,200 Speaker 1: image was put up in Tulsa. Hadn't happened yet, the 239 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:34,160 Speaker 1: shooting at the hospital hadn't happened yet. But I thought 240 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:36,840 Speaker 1: to myself, this is not what my pride looks like. 241 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:41,440 Speaker 1: And this is not how you show um, how you 242 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:45,880 Speaker 1: show your connectedness to community or even lift up those 243 00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:50,960 Speaker 1: LGBTQ plus military members. Right it's talking about Oh, it's 244 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:54,320 Speaker 1: gonna be murder, but let's make it rainbow. I like, 245 00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 1: in my mind, like, that's that's what I saw. It's like, oh, 246 00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:00,280 Speaker 1: it's gonna be white supremacy. But let's disc go it 247 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:06,080 Speaker 1: up a bit. And so I ask you, you know, 248 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:13,120 Speaker 1: pride initially started as a riot, right It was black 249 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:18,440 Speaker 1: queer people, black trans women who were at the forefront 250 00:17:19,080 --> 00:17:22,440 Speaker 1: of the riot that happened at Stonewall here in New 251 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:26,400 Speaker 1: York where we are, because they had had enough of 252 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:32,119 Speaker 1: being beaten, of being abused by the state right that 253 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:35,760 Speaker 1: they were supposed to protect them. And so what do 254 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:40,320 Speaker 1: you feel about the way in which pride started those 255 00:17:40,359 --> 00:17:44,560 Speaker 1: many decades ago? And where you see that pride, the 256 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:48,479 Speaker 1: concept of pride has arrived at the moment that we 257 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 1: are in now. When I think about Marcia and Sylvia 258 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:57,480 Speaker 1: and all those elders and ancestors who threw bricks through 259 00:17:57,560 --> 00:18:01,719 Speaker 1: windows and resisted arrest and we're fighting in the streets 260 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:05,120 Speaker 1: literally for their lives against a state that didn't even 261 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:10,239 Speaker 1: recognize their humanity, I am inspired to do what I 262 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:14,960 Speaker 1: can as an artist to remember uplift and remind the 263 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:19,919 Speaker 1: society that what liberation looks like is not always pretty. 264 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:24,560 Speaker 1: It's not always clean. It's not always holding hands and 265 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:30,720 Speaker 1: singing songs. Sometimes it's punching your oppressor dead in his face. 266 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:34,879 Speaker 1: That's what it is sometimes. And you talk about this 267 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:38,920 Speaker 1: a lot too, when when we're talking about how weak 268 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:44,360 Speaker 1: the democratic opposition to the conservative agenda has been, how 269 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:47,320 Speaker 1: no one is saying like what needs to be said. 270 00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:49,440 Speaker 1: No one's saying the obvious, no one's telling the truth. 271 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:56,360 Speaker 1: The Democrats are playing tiddly winks while the Republicans are 272 00:18:56,359 --> 00:19:00,760 Speaker 1: playing destroyal monsters like it's it's just this weird kind 273 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:04,040 Speaker 1: of thing. And so when I see now that pride 274 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:11,280 Speaker 1: has become a T shirt, a party, rainbow floats, and 275 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:18,919 Speaker 1: a commodified event, Marcia and Sylvia must be rolling in 276 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:23,919 Speaker 1: their graves because the spirit of resistance seems to have 277 00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:30,400 Speaker 1: been co opted and turned into this thing where it's now. 278 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:36,840 Speaker 1: We will accept you, you homosexuals, you transgender people, if 279 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:43,640 Speaker 1: you're more like us so, if you consume rapidly, if 280 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:49,359 Speaker 1: you agree with our militarized agenda, global agenda, if you 281 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:53,840 Speaker 1: uphold conservative values, if you buy into our way of 282 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:58,600 Speaker 1: seeing the world, then we might because at any moment 283 00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:00,639 Speaker 1: we can turn on you, like this Supreme Court is 284 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:06,000 Speaker 1: letting us know um and that is that is how 285 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 1: revolutions are destroyed, is because the people in power recognize 286 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:15,520 Speaker 1: um a need and some of the people who are 287 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:18,920 Speaker 1: oppressed for a little bit of comfort, Yeah, a little 288 00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:21,639 Speaker 1: bit of a reprieve yea, And they offer it to you, 289 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:23,560 Speaker 1: They dangle it in front of you like a carrot, 290 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:29,840 Speaker 1: in exchange for your dignity and your right to be 291 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:33,880 Speaker 1: a full human person as you are. And so I'm 292 00:20:34,119 --> 00:20:41,840 Speaker 1: utterly disappointed. Do you think that our desire for ease 293 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:45,240 Speaker 1: in a certain way, right for ease in our lives? 294 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:47,520 Speaker 1: And I'm not saying that we're not deserving, just by 295 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:50,800 Speaker 1: virtue of our birth to live a life that is joyful, 296 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:54,080 Speaker 1: that is that is happy. But do you think that 297 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 1: this sense of ease has fueled the assimilation that has 298 00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:06,440 Speaker 1: us not see the current iteration of our society as 299 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:10,800 Speaker 1: a point of resistance for our community? Right that that 300 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 1: that that's that that that and and if you if 301 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:17,320 Speaker 1: you just have enough, right, because that's what that's what 302 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:21,000 Speaker 1: you're saying, like that carried it's just enough. Right, It's 303 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 1: not too much, it's not it's sure, it's hell, it's 304 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:26,880 Speaker 1: not the most It's just enough. For you, so you're 305 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:29,960 Speaker 1: not drowning if your nose is sticking out of the 306 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:35,080 Speaker 1: water and there is still air to breathe. And I'm wondering, 307 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:39,720 Speaker 1: how do you foresee or is there a possibility for 308 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:44,840 Speaker 1: us as the LGBTQ plus community to make a switch, 309 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:49,479 Speaker 1: to make a transition from this assimilation and life of 310 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:56,040 Speaker 1: ease to that of resistance. You see, you, you, you 311 00:21:56,119 --> 00:22:00,120 Speaker 1: tackle the you ask the essential question because this is 312 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:05,160 Speaker 1: the danger of proximity to your oppressor. On the one hand, 313 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:09,240 Speaker 1: you're close enough for them to destroy. On the other hand, 314 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:13,480 Speaker 1: you're close enough to them so that you might escape 315 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:16,560 Speaker 1: being destroyed because you're too close to them and they 316 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:21,840 Speaker 1: don't want to possibly be a residual damage. So you're 317 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:27,679 Speaker 1: in this weird place where you don't want to suffer. 318 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:31,719 Speaker 1: You're tired of suffering, You're you're exhausted from suffering, and 319 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:36,439 Speaker 1: you've been offered this brief moment of reprieve. So what 320 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:38,600 Speaker 1: do you do? Do you continue to suffer or do 321 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:41,280 Speaker 1: you take that brief moment of reprieve? Most people, I 322 00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:45,119 Speaker 1: wager will take the brief moment of reprieve, and that 323 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:49,320 Speaker 1: is what the oppressors, the powerbrokers these robber barons count 324 00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:53,800 Speaker 1: on is that you are. They have so thoroughly exhausted 325 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:58,480 Speaker 1: you that the minute they lay down a piece of 326 00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:00,040 Speaker 1: a pillow for you to lay your head on, and 327 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:03,280 Speaker 1: you're gonna lay your head on it. It takes somewhat 328 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 1: of impeccable um personality to say, you know what, fucked 329 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:15,240 Speaker 1: that pillow? Because if I keep fighting, eventually I'm going 330 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:20,320 Speaker 1: to have the whole bed right. And there's there's too 331 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:24,879 Speaker 1: few of us, you know. I was a couple of 332 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:29,960 Speaker 1: weeks ago was in conversation with another thought leader that 333 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 1: I really enjoy speaking with, which is doctor Brittany Cooper, uh, 334 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:40,600 Speaker 1: associate professor at Rutger's, And we were talking about you know, 335 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:45,440 Speaker 1: her or her family, uh and her and gun culture 336 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:49,240 Speaker 1: in Louisiana where she um was reared and raised and 337 00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 1: her family still is, and the need for this kind 338 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 1: of protection for black people, black family's, black property because 339 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:04,800 Speaker 1: of the consistent, unrelenting threat of white supremacy and what 340 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:08,400 Speaker 1: that looks like in different states and cities and places 341 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:12,280 Speaker 1: in rural places and cities. And so I'm curious as 342 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:18,520 Speaker 1: to your thoughts about every time Robert, there is a 343 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:22,760 Speaker 1: mass shooting, gun sales in this country go up. The 344 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 1: only time that we ever had any kinds of genuine, 345 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:31,320 Speaker 1: sensible gun regulation was when the Black Panthers decided to 346 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:36,720 Speaker 1: exercise their right to bear arms. What do you make 347 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:43,679 Speaker 1: of black people, black queer people as well? Thinking about 348 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:48,160 Speaker 1: considering the fact that we've moved out of the talking 349 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:52,760 Speaker 1: phase of this project, and that in order for me 350 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:58,480 Speaker 1: to ensure to some extent my own safety, and those 351 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:01,679 Speaker 1: are the people that I love. If my oppressor is 352 00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:07,840 Speaker 1: bearing arms, isn't it my responsibility to do the same. Absolutely, 353 00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:16,760 Speaker 1: I feel that we cannot. We can. No longer we 354 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:23,879 Speaker 1: shall overcome our oppressor into thinking of us as civilized 355 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:27,120 Speaker 1: human beings. I just saw a clip of James Baldwin 356 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:32,320 Speaker 1: speaking of queer icons where he said, you know what 357 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:37,959 Speaker 1: white people mean by progress is how fast I become white. 358 00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:40,480 Speaker 1: And then he goes on to say, I've drank my 359 00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:44,960 Speaker 1: share of dry martiniz, I've proven myself civilized in every 360 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:47,639 Speaker 1: way that I can, and you still don't see me 361 00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:50,000 Speaker 1: as civilized. So I might as well act like a nigger. 362 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 1: And what I interpreted that to mean was you want 363 00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:57,920 Speaker 1: to pull a gun, then I'm gonna pull a gun. 364 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:00,800 Speaker 1: Two I'm gonna pull two guns just to show you. 365 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:04,720 Speaker 1: So if the only language you can speak is violence, 366 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:08,360 Speaker 1: even when I'm speaking to you with peace, you leave 367 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:14,720 Speaker 1: me no choice. And if we are in a situation 368 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:22,520 Speaker 1: increasingly such that their feel feels like our choices are 369 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:29,960 Speaker 1: shrinking and are becoming limited and scarce, where do you 370 00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:36,080 Speaker 1: foresee Robert us going right? Because my thing, what I've 371 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:38,199 Speaker 1: been saying, and what I say on my videos, what 372 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 1: I say on these shows, is that a pressure, the 373 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:45,840 Speaker 1: oppressor goes for the low hanging fruit first, the people 374 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:49,439 Speaker 1: that they believe are the unwanted. So you're gonna go 375 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:53,600 Speaker 1: after trans youth, right, you big bade straight cis gender 376 00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:57,440 Speaker 1: white man are going to go and attack children, right, 377 00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:00,359 Speaker 1: You're gonna go and attack policies of people, not the 378 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 1: entirety of the LGBTQ community, but the part that we 379 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:07,399 Speaker 1: are still quote trying to figure out right that doesn't 380 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:11,200 Speaker 1: really fit anywhere, which is a transgender community. And so 381 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:17,200 Speaker 1: if that is the case, then it's like, and they 382 00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:22,159 Speaker 1: keep picking off marginalized, marginalized, it's not too long before 383 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:25,479 Speaker 1: they get to everybody else. And so how do you 384 00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:29,280 Speaker 1: forstee through your art through all of these different mediums 385 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:33,000 Speaker 1: waking up the public to the threat that is now 386 00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:38,880 Speaker 1: our doorstep. One of the horrible things about being an 387 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:45,480 Speaker 1: American is the profound narcissism of that identity come on 388 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:50,480 Speaker 1: that we cannot see outside our own experience. For nothing 389 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:54,840 Speaker 1: in the world, we lack empathy, and so we don't 390 00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:58,600 Speaker 1: understand a threat until it's on our own doorstep. We 391 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:00,600 Speaker 1: could see it across the street and swear it's not 392 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:02,480 Speaker 1: going to come our direction. We could see it in 393 00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:04,480 Speaker 1: the street, we could see it walking up the sidewalk, 394 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:07,240 Speaker 1: and we won't say anything until it's right at our doorstep, 395 00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:09,680 Speaker 1: and then suddenly we're like, oh my god, what happened? 396 00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:15,560 Speaker 1: What I foresee in this country is rather bleak. I 397 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:18,480 Speaker 1: think it's not going to be five or ten years 398 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:22,119 Speaker 1: before the United States as we know it crumbles, and 399 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:27,720 Speaker 1: that it's replaced by a fastest oppressive openly so because 400 00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:29,399 Speaker 1: now it's kind of like on the on the d 401 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:34,600 Speaker 1: L in some respects, where people like you and I, 402 00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:39,360 Speaker 1: the people at the margins, black people, queer people, trans people, 403 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:45,360 Speaker 1: disabled people will be seen as ultimately disposable, if not 404 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:53,160 Speaker 1: re enslaved, and you are the clarion call and That's 405 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:55,880 Speaker 1: why I point so many people into your direction, because 406 00:28:55,920 --> 00:29:00,400 Speaker 1: you have this uncanny ability to connect all the dots 407 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:05,000 Speaker 1: to show how the dominoes fall. And I feel like 408 00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:08,160 Speaker 1: you have been screaming into a void because I'm like, 409 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:12,360 Speaker 1: is anybody else listening to how Danielle is tying all 410 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:16,400 Speaker 1: of these things together to tell us what's coming? And 411 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:18,760 Speaker 1: that's why I share your stuff so often, because I'm 412 00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:21,680 Speaker 1: trying to get people to wake up. But I don't 413 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:24,440 Speaker 1: know any other way than saying it and telling the 414 00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:26,240 Speaker 1: truth out loud to get people to wake up to 415 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 1: people who want to be asleep. You know, one of 416 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:34,400 Speaker 1: the things that I have been thinking about, Robert, is 417 00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:42,440 Speaker 1: the fact that James Baldwin ancestor Baldwin left this country 418 00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:49,600 Speaker 1: because he could not find himself under duress with the 419 00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:54,520 Speaker 1: clearness of mind, to be able to create, to be 420 00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:58,720 Speaker 1: able to discuss what was happening. Because when you are 421 00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:05,160 Speaker 1: in it and survival is your is your only hope, 422 00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:08,640 Speaker 1: how can you see anything else, let alone share those 423 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:12,800 Speaker 1: thoughts with others. And so he left. I want to 424 00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:16,600 Speaker 1: know what you think about what you thought about his 425 00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:22,600 Speaker 1: leaving right, and whether or not we write as this 426 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:31,120 Speaker 1: small collective of of of of black thought leaders, writers, artists, academics, activists. 427 00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:38,280 Speaker 1: Is the writing on the wall for us? I would say, so, um, 428 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:41,040 Speaker 1: you know. Initially, when I, you know, was doing my 429 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:44,200 Speaker 1: research on James Baldwin and learning about him and discovered 430 00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:46,320 Speaker 1: that he left the country, I saw it as a 431 00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:50,320 Speaker 1: kind of betrayal. Initial so did I, yep um, And 432 00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:53,040 Speaker 1: I thought, well, why would you leave when you know 433 00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:57,160 Speaker 1: what the community is dealing with here? But as I 434 00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:01,080 Speaker 1: have grown up, as I have matured, I've come to 435 00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:04,480 Speaker 1: understand that it was necessary for him to leave. He 436 00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:08,680 Speaker 1: could not have been so incisive, so clear about the 437 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:13,360 Speaker 1: American condition within the confines of America, because he would 438 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:15,360 Speaker 1: have been under assault at all times, and so his 439 00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:19,320 Speaker 1: attention would have to be split between getting this work 440 00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:24,440 Speaker 1: done and protecting himself from state forces. I have three 441 00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:27,160 Speaker 1: of three friends in my circle and family in my 442 00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:30,560 Speaker 1: circle who have left the United States for good. My 443 00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:36,280 Speaker 1: cousin Kaden is in Japan, my friend Will is in 444 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:40,040 Speaker 1: the United Arab Emirates, and my friend Tres in South Africa, 445 00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:43,240 Speaker 1: and they refuse to come back. They said they cannot 446 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:48,080 Speaker 1: breathe in this country, that it is they feel under 447 00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:51,479 Speaker 1: total menace when they are in this country and they 448 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:54,880 Speaker 1: are all now in these other places flourishing. I think 449 00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:58,200 Speaker 1: of Sonya Renee Taylor, who left the United States and 450 00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:02,320 Speaker 1: now she's in New Zealand and she's thriving. There is 451 00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:06,640 Speaker 1: something to be said about picking up and leaving. And 452 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:09,160 Speaker 1: I'm not saying that wherever we go is going to 453 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:11,520 Speaker 1: be perfect, it's going to be utopia, because there's no 454 00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:14,560 Speaker 1: such thing. But there is something I believe to be 455 00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:18,680 Speaker 1: said about escaping the land of your particular oppressor, who 456 00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:23,760 Speaker 1: is unrelenting, who refuses to see your humanity, refuses to 457 00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:29,160 Speaker 1: have any empathy, and doesn't know what compassion means. What 458 00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:32,800 Speaker 1: do you think, Robert, that James Baldwin would say of 459 00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:36,920 Speaker 1: this moment? Because in my mind, now that he has passed, 460 00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:41,960 Speaker 1: I look back at his writings, and actually right now 461 00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:47,160 Speaker 1: the interview that he did, that Nikki Giovanni did with 462 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:50,600 Speaker 1: him many many moons ago, is now on stage in 463 00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:57,280 Speaker 1: New York. But I think about the way in which 464 00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:00,600 Speaker 1: he foresaw and would tell people in the way that 465 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:04,160 Speaker 1: I do, because much more, much more eloquent and articulate 466 00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:08,080 Speaker 1: and less curse words than I offer. But what do 467 00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:10,920 Speaker 1: you think that he would say would it be, and 468 00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:14,240 Speaker 1: I told you so would What do you think he 469 00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:18,520 Speaker 1: would make of this moment? I'm so glad you asked 470 00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:21,840 Speaker 1: me that question, Danielle, because toward the end of his 471 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:27,080 Speaker 1: writing career, the people who used to praise Baldwin began 472 00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:32,440 Speaker 1: to really negatively criticize him and say things like he 473 00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:37,400 Speaker 1: was bitter and repetitive. And I went back to those 474 00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:39,760 Speaker 1: later works of his, not the ones that get all 475 00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:42,840 Speaker 1: the attention, like The Fire Next Time such, but his 476 00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:45,720 Speaker 1: later things like The Evidence of Things Not Seen, which 477 00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:53,080 Speaker 1: was his last published collection. Baldwin basically said, I have 478 00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:57,400 Speaker 1: known these people for sixty years, Over sixty years of 479 00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:00,560 Speaker 1: my life, I've been writing to them and boring them 480 00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:06,560 Speaker 1: to please grow up, um, to please find compassion, to 481 00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:10,880 Speaker 1: please be humane, and I have decided they're incapable of it. 482 00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:16,000 Speaker 1: So he would exactly tell us right now, what did 483 00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:23,840 Speaker 1: I tell you? If in fact these people are incapable, 484 00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:27,520 Speaker 1: what does that say for the rest of us? Because 485 00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:30,920 Speaker 1: we all can't leave. We all don't have the resources 486 00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:35,440 Speaker 1: the wherewithal to be able to leave. So if the diet, 487 00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:38,560 Speaker 1: if the diagnosis is if I if I were a 488 00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:42,560 Speaker 1: doctor and I'm diagnosing America, and I'm diagnosing the condition 489 00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:47,399 Speaker 1: of whiteness, and I'm saying, well, this is it, right, 490 00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:50,759 Speaker 1: You're in the fourth stage, right, this is this? You're 491 00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:56,560 Speaker 1: you you this this illness is terminal? What is that? 492 00:34:56,719 --> 00:35:00,279 Speaker 1: What does that say to the entirety of the product? Jack? 493 00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:07,640 Speaker 1: Then it basically says, if you're not Harriet Tubman, you're screwed. 494 00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:11,960 Speaker 1: So that means we are the ones of us who 495 00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:17,760 Speaker 1: can't leave. We are in danger, girl, That's what that means. 496 00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:20,440 Speaker 1: And I hate to be so bleak about it, but 497 00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:25,440 Speaker 1: I don't see any way out. I don't Maybe I 498 00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:31,200 Speaker 1: just don't have the intellectual capability, I don't have the optimism. 499 00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:33,680 Speaker 1: I'm not sure what it is, but I don't see 500 00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:36,040 Speaker 1: a way out for those of us who can't escape. 501 00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:40,960 Speaker 1: I see the longer we remain in this place, the 502 00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:44,960 Speaker 1: quicker we are going to find ourselves in chains again, 503 00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:52,320 Speaker 1: wondering how the hell did this happen? Last question for you, Robert, 504 00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:55,040 Speaker 1: and I just I mean, I honestly, I could talk 505 00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:57,640 Speaker 1: to you all day because you make me feel sane. 506 00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:03,120 Speaker 1: What are you doing to keep your wits about you? 507 00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:10,200 Speaker 1: To keep your spirit? You know? High? And maybe it 508 00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:13,600 Speaker 1: isn't high. Maybe it's just hovering, but how do you 509 00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:20,280 Speaker 1: continue to provide self care for yourself when you recognize 510 00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:23,960 Speaker 1: that everything actually is as bleak as we're saying that 511 00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:29,440 Speaker 1: it is. You know, Danielle. What gives me hope are 512 00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:33,799 Speaker 1: people like you, And that's the honest truth. People who 513 00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:38,160 Speaker 1: are so clear and walk with a complete knowing of 514 00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:41,200 Speaker 1: who they are and the situation as it is, who 515 00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:46,799 Speaker 1: suffers under no delusions. When I listen to you and 516 00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:51,320 Speaker 1: your wonderful podcasts and all the work that you're doing, 517 00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:54,880 Speaker 1: I'm like, there's got to be more Daniells out there somewhere. 518 00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:59,279 Speaker 1: And if there's more Danielle's out there somewhere, then we 519 00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:02,359 Speaker 1: can resist at least for a little while longer. And 520 00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:06,560 Speaker 1: then I go back, of course, to the ancestors. I'm 521 00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:12,240 Speaker 1: rereading Morrison and Baldwin and Alice Walker and Gloria Naylor 522 00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:15,760 Speaker 1: and Octavia Butler. Octavia Butler, as a matter of fact, 523 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:19,719 Speaker 1: is like an oracle. She was an oracle. Yep. So 524 00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:22,600 Speaker 1: if you want to find if you want to prepare 525 00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:27,560 Speaker 1: yourself for what's coming next, read Octavia Butler. So that's 526 00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:29,520 Speaker 1: where I find my comfort, and the other thing that 527 00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:32,799 Speaker 1: I do because the world is so ugly to bring 528 00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:35,920 Speaker 1: a little beauty into it is. I tend to gardens, 529 00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:38,960 Speaker 1: So I like to garden, plant flowers and things like that, 530 00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:41,840 Speaker 1: just to see something of beauty, to remind myself that 531 00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:45,680 Speaker 1: it doesn't have to be this ugly. Yeah, I do 532 00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:49,280 Speaker 1: the same. You can't see behind me, but my entire 533 00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:56,040 Speaker 1: house is filled with a significant a significant amount of players. 534 00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:00,200 Speaker 1: Because they do they make they make me see that 535 00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:04,480 Speaker 1: time goes on, things will continue to grow, the sun 536 00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:09,399 Speaker 1: does come out, water does remain wet, and you know 537 00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:12,160 Speaker 1: and that there is in nurturing and by nurturing them, 538 00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:15,800 Speaker 1: it does help me with the healing of my heart 539 00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:18,680 Speaker 1: that this country continues to break on a regular basis. 540 00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:24,880 Speaker 1: Robert Jones Junior, thank you so much for making time 541 00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:27,560 Speaker 1: for Woke after making time for me. Thank you so 542 00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:30,960 Speaker 1: much for your kind, beautiful words that you say about me, 543 00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:33,640 Speaker 1: but that you write, that you write and that you 544 00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:37,600 Speaker 1: offer to the world. I just appreciate you so much, 545 00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:43,319 Speaker 1: and I wish you a really hopeful pride, one that 546 00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:47,560 Speaker 1: reminds us of the people we came from and the 547 00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:51,080 Speaker 1: work that's still ahead. All Shay, and thank you so 548 00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:53,200 Speaker 1: much for having me Daniel, It is always a pleasure. 549 00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:56,080 Speaker 1: Get a behind the scenes look at Comedy Central's The 550 00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:59,320 Speaker 1: Daily Show Beyond the Scenes, an original podcast from The 551 00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:02,480 Speaker 1: Daily Show Trevor Noah. Every week, host Roy Wood Junior 552 00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:04,920 Speaker 1: goes deeper with the notable guests and experts from the 553 00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:08,040 Speaker 1: Emmy Award winning series. Together, they use comedy to tackle 554 00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:10,880 Speaker 1: current topics from gentrification to gun laws and take a 555 00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:13,560 Speaker 1: closer look at how and why these topics matter. Listen 556 00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:15,880 Speaker 1: to Beyond the Scenes from the Daily Show with Trevor 557 00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:19,040 Speaker 1: Noah on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast or wherever you 558 00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:28,360 Speaker 1: get your podcast. New episodes every Tuesday. That is it 559 00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:32,680 Speaker 1: for me today. Hear friends on Woke app as always 560 00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:36,000 Speaker 1: Power to the people and to all the people. Power, 561 00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:41,000 Speaker 1: get woke and stay woke, as fu, stay well, Stay safe. 562 00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:46,560 Speaker 1: Get a behind the scenes look at Comedy Central's The 563 00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:49,719 Speaker 1: Daily Show on Beyond the Scenes, an original podcast from 564 00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:52,359 Speaker 1: the Daily Show with Trevor Noah. Every week, host Roy 565 00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:55,120 Speaker 1: Wood Junior goes deeper with the notable guests and experts 566 00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:58,040 Speaker 1: from the Emmy Award winning series. Together, they use comedy 567 00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:00,960 Speaker 1: to tackle current topics from gentrifer ka to gun laws 568 00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:02,960 Speaker 1: and take a closer look at how and why these 569 00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:05,640 Speaker 1: topics matter. Listen to Beyond the Scenes from the Daily 570 00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:08,760 Speaker 1: Show with Trevor Noah on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, 571 00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:12,759 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcast. New episodes every Tuesday.