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Speaker 1: Hi, get everybody. I'm Dan Horde and thanks for downloading

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Speaker 1: the Bengals Booth podcast. The I'm Special So Special addition,

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Speaker 1: as I discussed the NFL's new kickoff rules and a

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Speaker 1: few other important topics with Bengals Special Teams Coordinator Darren Simmons.

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Speaker 1: The Bengals Booth Podcast is brought to you by pay Core,

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Speaker 1: Proud to be the Bengals official hr software provider, by

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Speaker 1: Alta Fiber future proof fiber Internet designed to elevate your home,

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Speaker 1: business and community to a new level, and by Kettering

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Speaker 1: Health the best care for the best fans. Kettering Health

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Speaker 1: is the official healthcare provider of the Bengals. Now here's

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Speaker 1: a quick reminder that you can have the latest edition

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Speaker 1: of this podcast delivered write to your phone, tablet, or

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Speaker 1: computer by subscribing wherever you get your podcasts. It's the

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Speaker 1: greatest thing since the Larry Bird statue in Tara Hate, Indiana.

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Speaker 1: I was in tear this week to broadcast Cincinnati's game

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Speaker 1: versus Indiana State in the NIT and while I was

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Speaker 1: not surprised to see a Larry Bird statue outside of

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Speaker 1: the arena at his alma mater, I was stunned by

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Speaker 1: how tall it is. It's slightly more than seventeen feet

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Speaker 1: tall from the sidewalk to the top of the basketball

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Speaker 1: raised over his head. Now here's the fun part of

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Speaker 1: the story. There's a statue of Magic Johnson at Michigan

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Speaker 1: State that's twelve feet tall. The Larry Bird statue was

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Speaker 1: specifically designed to be taller than Magic's. Johnson won more

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Speaker 1: NBA titles five to three, and when they went head

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Speaker 1: to head in the finals, the Lakers won two out

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Speaker 1: of three. But when it comes to statue height, Larry

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Speaker 1: Legend reigned supreme. Now let's get to football. In twenty eleven,

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Speaker 1: in an attempt to cut down on the number of

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Speaker 1: injuries that occurred on kickoffs, the NFL moved the spot

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Speaker 1: of the kickoff from the thirty yard yard line to

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Speaker 1: the thirty five. That led to fewer returns. Unfortunately, as

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Speaker 1: kicker's legs became stronger, the kick return became a rarity.

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Speaker 1: Last year, only twenty two percent of kickoffs were returned,

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Speaker 1: and in the Super Bowl all thirteen kickoffs were touchbacks.

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Speaker 1: As a result, the NFL dramatically changed the kickoff rule

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Speaker 1: this week, adopting rules that were pioneered in the XFL.

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Speaker 1: Here are some of the key changes. The ball is

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Speaker 1: still kicked from the thirty five, but if you kick

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Speaker 1: it into the end zone or out of the end

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Speaker 1: zone for a touchback, the ball goes out to the

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Speaker 1: thirty yard line instead of the twenty five. That's meant

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Speaker 1: to discourage teams from kicking it into the end zone.

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Speaker 1: If you kick the ball short of the twenty yard

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Speaker 1: line in the air or kick it out of bounds,

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Speaker 1: the return team gets the ball at the forty yard line.

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Speaker 1: The so called landing zone is between the twenty yard

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Speaker 1: line and the goal line. Any kick in that zone

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Speaker 1: must be returned. Additionally, if a kick hits the ground

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Speaker 1: in the landing zone and then bounces or rolls into

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Speaker 1: the end zone, it can either be returned or downed,

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Speaker 1: but if it's downed, the returning team only gets the

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Speaker 1: ball at the twenty. That's meant to encourage returns. In

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Speaker 1: order to make the kickoff safer, the coverage team lines

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Speaker 1: up at the other team's forty yard line, twenty five

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Speaker 1: yards ahead of the ball. Nine members of the return

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Speaker 1: team are lined up between five and ten yards away.

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Speaker 1: They're in close proximity in order to cut down on

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Speaker 1: dangerous high speed collisions, and those players can't move until

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Speaker 1: the ball hits the ground or one of the two

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Speaker 1: returners who have to line up in the landing zone. Finally,

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Speaker 1: since nobody lines up close to the kicker on side,

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Speaker 1: kicks must be declared in advance and can only be

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Speaker 1: attempted in the fourth quarter or over time. For those

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Speaker 1: of us who having watched the XFL, it can all

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Speaker 1: be pretty confusing. That's why I sat down this week

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Speaker 1: for an in depth conversation with Bengals special team scoordinator

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Speaker 1: Darren Simmons, who was heading into his twenty second season

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Speaker 1: in Cincinnati. Darren, last year, nearly eighty percent of NFL

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Speaker 1: kickoffs were not returned. Did you agree with the notion

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Speaker 1: that a change was needed?

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Speaker 2: Oh, I think it was absolutely necessary. I knew midway

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Speaker 2: through the season that we can't keep doing what we're

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Speaker 2: doing here and keep this play a relevant part of

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Speaker 2: the game which couldn't affect the game.

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Speaker 3: You know, normally.

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Speaker 2: In a regular game, there are probably twenty five to

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Speaker 2: thirty special teams plays total, and I review each of

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Speaker 2: those with our team after the game. And yet you know,

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Speaker 2: I start canceling out. I started deleting all the plays

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Speaker 2: that are touchbacks, there's really nothing to coach off of

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Speaker 2: the next thing, you know, there's twelve or thirteen relevant

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Speaker 2: plays in a special teams game. So I knew we

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Speaker 2: had to do something different than we just couldn't keep operating.

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Speaker 3: We were operating.

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Speaker 1: The NFL makes rules changes every year, but most of

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Speaker 1: them are slight tweaks. This is a radical change. You've

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Speaker 1: been coaching at one level or another for thirty years, basically,

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Speaker 1: has there been anything remotely comparable?

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Speaker 2: No, I don't think so. You know, we made some

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Speaker 2: pretty cool radical changes in twenty eighteen. We eliminated the wedge.

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Speaker 2: We eliminated certain types of double team blocks and trap blocks,

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Speaker 2: and I thought that was pretty radical back in twenty eighteen.

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Speaker 2: But this is going to be wholesale.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 2: Ever since the rule passed, I've been hesitant to do

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Speaker 2: a lot of extra work on this prior to it passing,

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Speaker 2: just because I didn't know exactly which way it was

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Speaker 2: going to go. But now that since the rules passed,

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Speaker 2: I've been trying to get our playbook back in order,

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Speaker 2: and this is the most change that I've had to

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Speaker 2: make to the playbook since I first started, you know,

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Speaker 2: way bay way back. So there is it's a substantial change.

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Speaker 2: There's gonna be a lot that goes into it.

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Speaker 1: So the new NFL rule is a modified version of

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Speaker 1: what they've done in the XFL for the last couple

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Speaker 1: of years. Did you watch XFL games before there was

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Speaker 1: any discussion of this coming to the NFL, just out

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Speaker 1: of your curiosity?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I actually did it a year ago. You know.

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Speaker 2: I was a part of a group of coaches that

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Speaker 2: that the NFL brought up to the NFL films in Philadelphia,

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Speaker 2: and we discussed changes a year ago, and so I

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Speaker 2: knew this was the XFL model was on the back

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Speaker 2: burner a little bit, and we couldn't really come to

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Speaker 2: a great consensus a year ago. You know, when when

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Speaker 2: the health and safety people brought up the XFL kick

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Speaker 2: off to us as coaches, everybody kind of, you know,

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Speaker 2: didn't really know what to think because I'd never really

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Speaker 2: seen the play. Thought I was kind of a gimmicky

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Speaker 2: looking thing until you actually put the tape on, and uh,

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Speaker 2: you know, if you pause an NFL kickoff play when

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Speaker 2: the returner catches it versus what the XFL model looked like,

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Speaker 2: then it wasn't all that dissimilar that they were actually

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Speaker 2: actually relatively close to being the same, not exactly by

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Speaker 2: a stretch of the imagination when you have players of

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Speaker 2: different speed levels from the NFL model, but you know,

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Speaker 2: there was a lot to go off of. I've looked

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Speaker 2: at every XFL kickoff, every play for the for the

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Speaker 2: past couple of years, you know, and it's it's really

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Speaker 2: about educating myself. What are the different schemes, what are

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Speaker 2: the what are the different techniques that that they tried

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Speaker 2: to employ, How would it how would it look for us?

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Speaker 2: What are the things that we need to do differently

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Speaker 2: for our league relative to what the XFL did. And

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Speaker 2: we think we come up with a plan that h

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Speaker 2: or a model for us, the NFL hybrid model that

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Speaker 2: you know, tries to satisfy as many of the deficiencies

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Speaker 2: that we saw in the XFL play and make it

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Speaker 2: a relevant, exciting play for us.

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Speaker 1: Were there other I ideas that were close to being adopted?

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Speaker 1: Was it a close call that ultimately all right, this

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Speaker 1: is the one we'll go with.

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Speaker 2: No, Because we had the same issue a year ago.

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Speaker 2: You know, the health and safety people have come to us,

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Speaker 2: you know, I feel like the Special Teams.

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Speaker 3: Group gets attacked.

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Speaker 2: It's every single year, like we're trying to, you know,

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Speaker 2: fend off the lions, the health and safety people that

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Speaker 2: are always coming to attack us for you know that.

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Speaker 2: You know, and I do get it from a player

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Speaker 2: safety standpoint. We are trying to keep the players as

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Speaker 2: safe as we possibly can, right So I get.

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Speaker 3: That part of it.

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Speaker 2: And they have a job to do and we had

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Speaker 2: at the same time, I have the job to do too.

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Speaker 2: We're still trying to make this play exciting. And you know,

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Speaker 2: there was a lot of issues that we discussed a

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Speaker 2: year ago. We actually discussed you know, the USFL. There

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Speaker 2: were two leagues, the USFL and the XFL. The XFL

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Speaker 2: used a model that we used. The USFL actually used

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Speaker 2: our model, but they backed up and kicked off from

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Speaker 2: the twenty yard line, and they were trying to create

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Speaker 2: more speed and more space and give blockers or give

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Speaker 2: cover players the opportunity to more room to beat blockers.

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Speaker 2: And uh, that's actually, oddly enough, what the UFL has adopted.

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Speaker 2: They adopted the us USFL model, But I think there's

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Speaker 2: a reason why for that. The commissioner of the us

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Speaker 2: FL was Darryl Johnston. When those two leagues merged and

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Speaker 2: combined in the UFL, Darryl Johnson is still the commissioners.

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Speaker 2: They just adopted his rule from the USFL. So people

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Speaker 2: are going to make a big deal about that. Why,

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Speaker 2: you know, we took a model that they're not going

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Speaker 2: to use in this other league, and and you know,

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Speaker 2: I just don't think our health and safety people could

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Speaker 2: ever wrap their head around us back in the kickoff

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Speaker 2: up and creating more speed, more space, and more collisions.

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Speaker 2: And you know, I tend to agree with that. So

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Speaker 2: that that that was the reason we kind of stuck

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Speaker 2: with this XFL model. We thought we could make tweaks

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Speaker 2: to it that would make it better for us. There

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Speaker 2: were a lot of holes in what they did. You know,

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Speaker 2: I give them credit. They did a lot of work

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Speaker 2: on trying to get it off the ground, and they

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Speaker 2: did and hopefully, I think we're going to have the

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Speaker 2: ability of the same things. If there are things that

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Speaker 2: we don't like or are not working exactly like I

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Speaker 2: wanted to, I think we're gonna have the ability to

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Speaker 2: make small tweaks and adjustments. You know, maybe after the

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Speaker 2: end of the preseason. If we go through the preseason

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Speaker 2: and see things. Oh man, I wish we would have

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Speaker 2: done this. I think we're going to give us the

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Speaker 2: opportunity and maybe make some amendments if we need to,

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Speaker 2: to try to make it better.

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Speaker 1: Do you see college and high school football going to

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Speaker 1: a rule like this or something like it in the

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Speaker 1: years to come?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think it all depend on what it looks

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Speaker 2: like in our game. It seems to be a bit

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Speaker 2: of a theme. You know, we tried to adopt what

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Speaker 2: college football used and implement the fair catch last year

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Speaker 2: and it really didn't have the desired effect.

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Speaker 3: You know, it really would have. Did it increased touchbacks?

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Speaker 3: We didn't.

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Speaker 2: You know, there was nineteen hundred and seventy I think

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Speaker 2: touchbacks last year and ninety fair catches, so you know,

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Speaker 2: we're talking about a little over two thousand plays. It

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Speaker 2: really didn't matter, and we believe that the return percentage

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Speaker 2: the league has told us the analytics people at the

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Speaker 2: league office told us they believe the return for scenes

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Speaker 2: will be somewhere upround eighty to eighty five percent, So

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Speaker 2: you know, hopefully it will be about sixteen hundred more

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Speaker 2: plays league wide, so little interesting to see.

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Speaker 1: So instead of twenty percent being returned you're hoping more

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Speaker 1: like eighty percent, all right, So I picked out a

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Speaker 1: few specific things that I want to ask you about.

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Speaker 1: If you have a traditional touchback, now the ball goes

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Speaker 1: out to the thirty instead of the twenty five, is

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Speaker 1: five yards enough to discourage most teams from just blasting

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Speaker 1: it out of the end zone.

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Speaker 3: Well, that wasn't the initial proposal. The initial proposal was

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Speaker 3: taken out.

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Speaker 2: To the thirty five, which would really, I think, help

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Speaker 2: discourage that. But I think there was a couple of

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Speaker 2: coaches on the competition committee that felt like that the

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Speaker 2: thirty five yard line was too big of a penalty

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Speaker 2: to the kicking team. Say it, you're at the end

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Speaker 2: of a game and you kick a field goal with

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Speaker 2: thirty seconds le after score a touchdown to take the lead, like,

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Speaker 2: you want to have the ability to kick ball in

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Speaker 2: the back of the end zone and take it out

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Speaker 2: of the returner's hands. And so I think they came

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Speaker 2: to consensus that they would move it back to the thirty.

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Speaker 2: So I think that'll be a bit of a feeling

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Speaker 2: out process if you look at the you know, the

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Speaker 2: league ultimately scoring has been slightly down the last couple

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Speaker 2: of seasons and I think in an effort to help

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Speaker 2: improve that, they'd like to see the kickoff return drive

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Speaker 2: start move up the field a little bit. It's been

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Speaker 2: around the twenty five yard line about the same spot

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Speaker 2: the touchbackspin for the last couple of years, so I

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Speaker 2: think this is an effort also to move the drive

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Speaker 2: start back up the field, give the offense a little

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Speaker 2: bit of a shorter field to work on. So again,

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Speaker 2: to answer your question, I think it's going to be

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Speaker 2: it's going to be a fluid situation to see how

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Speaker 2: teams try to manage that part of it.

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Speaker 1: Since you watched every XFL kickoff, did most of the

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Speaker 1: kickers try to kick it high and close to the

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Speaker 1: sideline inside the ten? Or do they kick line drives

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Speaker 1: that are hot to handle?

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Speaker 2: Well, it's unique. So the XFL actually kicked off from

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Speaker 2: the thirty yard line. They were five yards further back

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Speaker 2: than what we were. But the difference is the XFL

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Speaker 2: was a spring league, so they never had to deal

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Speaker 2: with weather. And I think for us, you know that

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Speaker 2: there was a part of a thought that why wouldn't

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Speaker 2: we kick off from the thirty yard kickers or better

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Speaker 2: than theirs are, But you know, how do you explain

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Speaker 2: that to teams like Buffalo and New England that are

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Speaker 2: playing in the New York's or in those East Coast

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Speaker 2: teams like that that are northern teams, that you know

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Speaker 2: what happens when the weather gets to be really cold

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Speaker 2: and it's really windy in January and December. You know

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Speaker 2: that sometimes it's going to be difficult just to get

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Speaker 2: the ball past the twenty. So I think that there's

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Speaker 2: going to be a lot of thought that goes into

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Speaker 2: how you kick it. You know, Evan'll have no problem

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Speaker 2: getting the ball down the field, you know.

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Speaker 3: I think the.

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Speaker 2: If you think about it, though, hangtime now really on

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Speaker 2: a kickoff doesn't matter anymore.

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Speaker 3: That that's the part.

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Speaker 2: That I'm a little concerned about as we've we've kind

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Speaker 2: of taken I think now what we're getting is a

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Speaker 2: lot of they're gonna get a lot of field goal

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Speaker 2: kicks on kickoffs because again, players can start on the

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Speaker 2: touch or the catch, so hangtime doesn't matter. I think

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Speaker 2: depth and accuracy is what's going to matter now, So

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Speaker 2: you know, latterly horizontally on the field, where you put

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Speaker 2: it and in depth is going to be a huge determinant.

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Speaker 2: But in the XFL, I would tell you that a

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Speaker 2: lot of the kicks that the teams were probably the

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Speaker 2: best in coverage were the kicks that were widest and deepest.

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Speaker 2: There are a lot of kicks that these kickers are

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Speaker 2: hit up to the ten or twelve yard line. That

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Speaker 2: I mean, these returners are running, you know, the other way.

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Speaker 2: They're on top of the cover team before the cover

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Speaker 2: team go and hit them. In some cases, So the XFL,

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Speaker 2: the kicking team lined up at the thirty five, the

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Speaker 2: return team lined up with the we're going to move

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Speaker 2: back five yards. We're gonna be the kicking team is

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Speaker 2: going to be at the forty to forty yard line.

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Speaker 2: Seven players have to line up on the thirty five

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Speaker 2: For US, two players can be within the next five

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Speaker 2: yards from a thirty five to the thirty.

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Speaker 3: So we're gonna be up the field a little bit

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Speaker 3: more to give the cover players a.

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Speaker 2: Better opportunity to get off blocks and still get off

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Speaker 2: and make a tackle.

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Speaker 1: I read one analyst who studied the XFL tape and

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Speaker 1: said that the return is less about straight line speed

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Speaker 1: and more about running back qualities like vision and shiftiness.

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Speaker 1: Do you agree?

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Speaker 3: I do agree? Yeah, I do agree.

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Speaker 2: I do think though there are some there's some plays

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Speaker 2: on there that where you can see the speed where

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Speaker 2: the speed of the returner matters. I do certainly agree, though,

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Speaker 2: because we're talking about a more confined area, confined box

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Speaker 2: now that some of these players are being returned in.

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Speaker 2: I do think that cutting ability of the returners and

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Speaker 2: lateral movement like what you norm to see in Palmer

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Speaker 2: turners is a bigger part of it, or it becomes

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Speaker 2: a more integral in the past. What you look for

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Speaker 2: in some qualities you look for in a kickoff returner.

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Speaker 2: You want big, physical, tough, straight line fastest guys you

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Speaker 2: can find. You know, That's why Brandon Wilson was an

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Speaker 2: effective player for US. Brandon Wilson was a running back

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Speaker 2: in college at Houston who was big and tough and

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Speaker 2: physical and had great speed. And now I think you've

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Speaker 2: got to have guys that you'd like to still have

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Speaker 2: those same qualities, but the added dynamic is they got

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Speaker 2: to be able to cut, They got to be able

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Speaker 2: to jump around a cover player, jump around even a

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Speaker 2: blocker for that matter, because the space is going to

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Speaker 2: be less than what there used to be.

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Speaker 1: Your kick returners from last year are still on the

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Speaker 1: roster for now, tray Von Williams, Chase Brown, Chris Evans,

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Speaker 1: Charlie Jones, who did it in college. How do you

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Speaker 1: feel about that group and do you feel like you

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Speaker 1: need to add a kickoff return guy.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think you saw uniquely enough. I think you

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Speaker 2: saw what Pittsburgh did yesterday. Pittsburgh signed Quaduroll Patterson, and

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Speaker 2: you know, I think if he still has gas left

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Speaker 2: in the tank, I haven't studied him in a bit,

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Speaker 2: but if he does get he's the prototypical guy that

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Speaker 2: you're looking for. He's a big, physical guy that hopefully

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Speaker 2: you get to him before he can get really going

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Speaker 2: because he's a tough guy to bring down. Because now

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Speaker 2: the difference is I think, you know, we're going to

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Speaker 2: have the jousting of the cover players or the sumo

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Speaker 2: wrestling match of the cover players trying to get off blocks,

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Speaker 2: mean while the return players were holding them, and you

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Speaker 2: got a big two hundred and twenty five pound guy

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Speaker 2: that runs in the low four fours trying to run

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Speaker 2: past him or throw them. So I do think that

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Speaker 2: there's going to be more value placed on that position

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Speaker 2: what's been in the past. I mean, I think I

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Speaker 2: think We had seventeen kickoff returns total last season, and

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Speaker 2: so that's got to become a big part of, you know,

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Speaker 2: helping us swim field position. I like the shiftiness that

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Speaker 2: obviously that Charlie has, you know, from his pump return background.

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Speaker 2: I'd like you know, I told I told Charlie right

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Speaker 2: after he texted me right after the real pass, hees,

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Speaker 2: what do you think of the rule?

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Speaker 3: And I said, well, you better be in the weight room.

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Speaker 2: You're gonna get hit and you've got to be able

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Speaker 2: to to be able to physically enough to withstand those hits.

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Speaker 2: And so I think it'll be unique to see what

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Speaker 2: he how he comes back. He's ready for that, and

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Speaker 2: it'll be unique to see with Chase Brown, you know,

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Speaker 2: he's kind of the type of guy you're looking for,

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Speaker 2: a guy that does have really, really good speed and

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Speaker 2: hopefully he's got enough. I think he does have enough

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Speaker 2: cutting ability and uh uh. He certainly has the toughness

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Speaker 2: to do that stuff. And of course we have experienced

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Speaker 2: guys in Travon and Chris who can do it as

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Speaker 2: well too, so but you're gonna need You're gonna need

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Speaker 2: multiple guys. You know, in the past we've lived with

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Speaker 2: just one, just one guy back deep. Now you're gonna

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Speaker 2: have to have two and uh, you have to have

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Speaker 2: two legitimate guys back there.

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Speaker 1: Well with Darren in a moment. But first, a quick

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Speaker 1: reminder that the Bengals Booth podcast is brought to you

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00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:03,480
Speaker 1: Scattering Health is the official healthcare provider of the Bengals.

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Speaker 1: You mentioned only seventeen returns last year, you only had

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Speaker 1: to cover thirteen returns in your first year as the

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Speaker 1: Bengals Special teams coordinator, the Bengals returned seventy four kickoffs

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Speaker 1: and defended more than seventy. How does this change time

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Speaker 1: on task? Are you going to have to spend much

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Speaker 1: more time at practice working on kick return kick coverage?

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Speaker 3: Well, I don't. I don't think that a lot of

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Speaker 3: that will change for us.

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Speaker 2: We really didn't change the way we practiced because it's

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Speaker 2: it's difficult for me to control.

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Speaker 3: You know, when you go into a Sunday, Like the

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Speaker 3: past couple.

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Speaker 2: Of seasons, it's difficult for me to control what's the

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Speaker 2: weather going to be, what is the situation dictating the game.

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Speaker 2: So we still practiced because I think a lot of

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Speaker 2: there's a lot of carryover from even the techniques that

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Speaker 2: you teach on kickoff coverage to the how they equate

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Speaker 2: the punt coverage. It's still running in a field lane,

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Speaker 2: it's still playing with specific leverage, and it's it's playing

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Speaker 2: good team defense and team coverage there to know what

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Speaker 2: the guy at the left and what the guy to

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Speaker 2: your rights. But so I don't think it will change

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Speaker 2: a lot, you know, on a weekly basis for us.

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Speaker 2: It'll certainly be a big point offs for us throughout

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Speaker 2: the off season here because there's going to be a

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Speaker 2: lot of change in could change for music coach, I'm

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Speaker 2: having to go, I'm gonna have to change the way

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Speaker 2: we teach this play now.

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Speaker 1: With blockers engaging coverage, players who aren't running at top speed,

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Speaker 1: will returns become more like running plays?

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Speaker 3: Well, I think there's I think there's some truth to that.

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Speaker 2: You know, what I worry about is because we're in

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Speaker 2: such close proximity, you know, a kickoff or term play

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Speaker 2: used to be about timing.

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Speaker 3: You know, this block has to occur, uh, or I

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Speaker 3: should put it this way.

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Speaker 2: Kickoff for term plays in the past are very close

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Speaker 2: to some running plays on offense, like where you double

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Speaker 2: team one defensive lineman and how that that the other

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Speaker 2: offensive linement comes off to block a linebacker and the

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Speaker 2: track of the running back matters very much because for

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Speaker 2: the timing of that second offensive lineman to come off

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Speaker 2: to the linebackers the track a running back takes and

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Speaker 2: then time me how that'll happens. It's very similar to

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Speaker 2: what a kickoff for turn player, what a kickoff or

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Speaker 2: turn play was in the past.

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Speaker 3: Now with the proximity.

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Speaker 2: Of these players, you know, being within five yards of

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Speaker 2: each other, it's a lot like offensive line play. And

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Speaker 2: what I worry about is if there's too many single

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Speaker 2: blocks that you know, in the past, officials have judged

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Speaker 2: kickoff for turn plays a lot tighter than what they

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Speaker 2: do offense and defensive line play. Meaning if the hands

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Speaker 2: get outside the framework of the body, you're getting called

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Speaker 2: for holding it. And I worry, I worry a lot

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Speaker 2: about it. With the penalty rate will go up. It's

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Speaker 2: going to go up because you're gonna have more plays

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Speaker 2: that matter. But I just don't want I don't want

438
00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:41,200
Speaker 2: to overtake the game. So it's gonna be interesting to

439
00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:43,159
Speaker 2: see how that that part gets officiated.

440
00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:46,840
Speaker 1: Do you have buddies in the XFL that you've been talking.

441
00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:48,240
Speaker 3: To, Well, not yet, not to this point.

442
00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:49,480
Speaker 2: Like I said, I didn't want to put the cart

443
00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:54,360
Speaker 2: before the horse, Uh, not knowing how the specifically was

444
00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:56,720
Speaker 2: was going to come out. Obviously, I've stayed and I've

445
00:21:56,720 --> 00:22:00,000
Speaker 2: tried to keep Katie. I'm on the coaches Committee, Katie's

446
00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:02,400
Speaker 2: on the competition committee. I've tried to share with her

447
00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:04,960
Speaker 2: things that we've talked about. She shares some with me,

448
00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:07,000
Speaker 2: the things that they talk about on the competition committee,

449
00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:09,920
Speaker 2: the issues and and so I've stayed in pretty close

450
00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:11,840
Speaker 2: dialogue with her. But yet I didn't know which way

451
00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:14,720
Speaker 2: it was going to go. I really didn't until I

452
00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:17,119
Speaker 2: think there's a ground swell support for it, you know,

453
00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:19,720
Speaker 2: on Sunday and Mondays.

454
00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:20,359
Speaker 3: It's it's it's you know.

455
00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:22,760
Speaker 2: It's also interesting to see whatever the commissioner wants, he

456
00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:23,280
Speaker 2: seems to.

457
00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:26,359
Speaker 1: Get is well compensated, know if that's a good.

458
00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:28,399
Speaker 3: Or bad thing, But he seems to get what he wants.

459
00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:31,320
Speaker 1: Well, he was born in my hometown, So I have

460
00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:35,120
Speaker 1: to support Roger Goodell with two returners back there, will

461
00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:39,639
Speaker 1: you have more reverses and throwback passes and stuff like

462
00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:40,600
Speaker 1: that in your playbook.

463
00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:43,119
Speaker 2: Well, I think that's something that that's a very interesting

464
00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:45,159
Speaker 2: part to look at now because everybody's going to be

465
00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:46,680
Speaker 2: down at the same level and if you can get

466
00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:48,800
Speaker 2: enough guys to squeeze the one side of the field.

467
00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:52,440
Speaker 2: Is there throwback plays that that the factor in. There

468
00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:55,000
Speaker 2: were several of those that were executed, you know, relatively

469
00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:59,040
Speaker 2: well in the XFL that are you know, there's obviously

470
00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:02,399
Speaker 2: examples of that are on tape as to how the work.

471
00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:03,840
Speaker 2: But you have to have the guys that can execute that.

472
00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:05,199
Speaker 2: You have to have the guys can throw, You have

473
00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:08,800
Speaker 2: to guys that can catch back there, back deep. So again,

474
00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:10,200
Speaker 2: we'll try to look at all those things to see

475
00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:11,120
Speaker 2: what works best for us.

476
00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:14,159
Speaker 1: All right, let's hit on some topics that do not

477
00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:16,600
Speaker 1: have to do with the new kickoff rule. I was

478
00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:18,640
Speaker 1: in the building a few days ago. I saw Brad

479
00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:22,320
Speaker 1: Robbins working out what do you want him focusing on

480
00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:23,200
Speaker 1: in the off season?

481
00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:27,120
Speaker 2: Well, everything I think he needs to improve in every

482
00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:29,440
Speaker 2: fast of his game. I think as a young punter

483
00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:32,000
Speaker 2: a lot of time, young players in general, their biggest

484
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:34,320
Speaker 2: improvement should come between year one and year two because

485
00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:36,720
Speaker 2: they know exactly what to expect. They know what a

486
00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:39,879
Speaker 2: training camp feels like, they know what OTAs feel like,

487
00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:41,680
Speaker 2: then what an end season feels like, and how they

488
00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:44,600
Speaker 2: deal with you know, things physically in their bodies and

489
00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:47,000
Speaker 2: how can they keep enough gas in their tank the

490
00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:50,199
Speaker 2: punt from you know, the beginning or the beginning of

491
00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:52,760
Speaker 2: August all the way through you know, the end of January.

492
00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:57,199
Speaker 2: So I think it was an education for him on

493
00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:01,159
Speaker 2: how the NFL game works. I think, just in just

494
00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:04,960
Speaker 2: simple terms, consistency is something he's got to improve on immensely,

495
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:05,239
Speaker 2: you know.

496
00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:07,400
Speaker 3: He uh he.

497
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:08,960
Speaker 2: He got off about as tough as start as you

498
00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:11,960
Speaker 2: could possibly get off to in some difficult conditions in

499
00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:14,320
Speaker 2: Cleveland year ago, and it was it was wendy, and

500
00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:16,560
Speaker 2: it was raining, and we had a pun eleven times.

501
00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:21,040
Speaker 2: So he got indoctrinated real fast what the NFL games

502
00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:23,840
Speaker 2: like and and he had some bright moments. I think

503
00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:26,480
Speaker 2: if you would ask him, he'd probably reiterate the same

504
00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:28,280
Speaker 2: thing I do, and that we've got to improve. We

505
00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:31,680
Speaker 2: got to improve quickly here to get us up into

506
00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:32,960
Speaker 2: where we need to be. We've got to get field

507
00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:35,639
Speaker 2: position flipped. He's got to get his gross average higher

508
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:37,960
Speaker 2: and more consistance. I thought he did a solid job

509
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:40,879
Speaker 2: with some of his directional punting. He did good with

510
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:46,640
Speaker 2: some situational punting. You know, we had two rookie gunners

511
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:48,400
Speaker 2: for the biggest portion of the year or two. And

512
00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:50,560
Speaker 2: if you want to count Tyson Anderson as a rookie,

513
00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:52,840
Speaker 2: he really is, and Andrea Yoshivash and then you got

514
00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:57,919
Speaker 2: a rookie punter. So you know, there's certainly things that

515
00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:00,000
Speaker 2: we need to rectify to in the plus fifty years,

516
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:02,600
Speaker 2: you know, we didn't. I don't think we executed well enough,

517
00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:04,320
Speaker 2: whether it was the pont, whether it was the gunners

518
00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:07,000
Speaker 2: down the ball in the plus fifty that that part's

519
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:08,360
Speaker 2: got to be better. We got to get balls down

520
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:10,600
Speaker 2: inside the ten, down inside the five yard line. So

521
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:13,400
Speaker 2: there's there's a Believe me, there's a ton of room

522
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:15,640
Speaker 2: for improvement from really all fats, not just him.

523
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:16,520
Speaker 3: From the coverage too.

524
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:20,760
Speaker 1: I think it's hard for us meeting fans and media

525
00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:24,600
Speaker 1: to judge somebody's holding ability. It seemed okay. Was it good?

526
00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:27,119
Speaker 1: Was it exceptional? How did he rate in that area?

527
00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:29,159
Speaker 2: I thought he was good, you know, I I, uh,

528
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:31,800
Speaker 2: that was something. I think that that factored into it

529
00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:34,560
Speaker 2: for me. You know, obviously he held for the uh

530
00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:37,600
Speaker 2: Lou Grosen winner and Jake Moody at Michigan, so heat

531
00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:40,000
Speaker 2: held for a high, high level kicker for several years

532
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:43,439
Speaker 2: at Michigan, and knowing the expectation of what was going

533
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:46,879
Speaker 2: to be asked to him with us having Evan here. Uh,

534
00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:49,040
Speaker 2: you know, I felt very good about what he did,

535
00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:51,160
Speaker 2: and even after the season, I still feel good.

536
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:52,240
Speaker 3: I thought he did a good job with that.

537
00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:54,800
Speaker 2: I thought, uh, Cal does a good job of setting

538
00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:57,840
Speaker 2: the plate form, but you know, I thought Brad did

539
00:25:57,840 --> 00:25:59,560
Speaker 2: a really good job of executing it. He takes a

540
00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:03,400
Speaker 2: very SHITU and you know, really for for him, it's

541
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:05,800
Speaker 2: half of his job. You know, the last time I checked,

542
00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:07,760
Speaker 2: we got to score points. You score more points in

543
00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:10,360
Speaker 2: the opponent to win the game. So, you know, a

544
00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:13,200
Speaker 2: huge portion or even probably of the most important part

545
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:15,280
Speaker 2: of his job is holding the FOREV and getting him

546
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:16,480
Speaker 2: set up to have success.

547
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:18,720
Speaker 1: You've been asked many times since the end of the

548
00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:21,560
Speaker 1: season about having competition at punter and training camp, and

549
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:24,119
Speaker 1: you've said that you would like to see that right now,

550
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:28,400
Speaker 1: the Bengals have ten draft picks. Is the organization okay

551
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:31,680
Speaker 1: with potentially drafting punters in back to back years?

552
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:33,960
Speaker 2: Well, I think if it improves your team, why not.

553
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:37,240
Speaker 2: You know, if you find something that helps you win

554
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:39,240
Speaker 2: a game or a couple of games, you know, I don't,

555
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:42,760
Speaker 2: I don't see any thing wrong with it. I think

556
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:44,520
Speaker 2: we did what we had to do last year and

557
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:47,560
Speaker 2: taking Brad, and we did take him, and I don't,

558
00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:47,920
Speaker 2: I don't.

559
00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:49,720
Speaker 3: I feel like it was a good choice.

560
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:53,119
Speaker 2: I obviously I'd like the production to be higher than

561
00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:53,480
Speaker 2: what it was.

562
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:55,399
Speaker 3: I was. I was under the expectation to probably be

563
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:57,760
Speaker 3: a little better than that, And but I'm not.

564
00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:01,520
Speaker 2: I'm actually excited to to get to work with him

565
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:03,919
Speaker 2: for the whole offseason again, excited to see where he

566
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:05,879
Speaker 2: the improvements that he's made on his own, you know,

567
00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:11,240
Speaker 2: not only physical improvements, but even mental improvements and levels

568
00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:15,240
Speaker 2: of confidence improvements. But if it also means that, you know,

569
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:18,920
Speaker 2: we have to put a draft pick on competition for

570
00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:20,800
Speaker 2: him in here, then if that's what it takes, that's

571
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 2: what it takes for us to improve.

572
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:25,639
Speaker 1: I know you go to pro days to study specialists,

573
00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:28,600
Speaker 1: what about core special teamers? Is that a big part

574
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:29,480
Speaker 1: of your draft prep?

575
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:33,920
Speaker 2: Sure it is, you know, I've been studying evaluating the returners,

576
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:37,400
Speaker 2: you know, obviously with my eye more towards the kickoff

577
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:40,000
Speaker 2: return portion of it, which has not always been the

578
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:43,920
Speaker 2: case in the past because really with the limited number

579
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:47,600
Speaker 2: of plays. But now these kickoff returners are a bigger

580
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:50,480
Speaker 2: part of what I watch, and the next transition, I'll

581
00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:56,119
Speaker 2: go to his position players that play other phases, And again,

582
00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:59,720
Speaker 2: I think that that could have some effect. Maybe I

583
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:01,720
Speaker 2: don't know for sure yet, but it could have some

584
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:04,280
Speaker 2: effect on the way that we make up our roster.

585
00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:05,320
Speaker 3: A little bit. You know.

586
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:08,280
Speaker 2: I do know that you only keep forty eight guys

587
00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:10,240
Speaker 2: active on game day, so it's not like we can

588
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:15,000
Speaker 2: keep all fifty three. But you know, maybe we it

589
00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:16,840
Speaker 2: changes a little way, maybe a little bit, the way

590
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:20,639
Speaker 2: that our roster structured on Sundays. Maybe we keep you know,

591
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:25,159
Speaker 2: a six linebacker instead of a six receiver or or

592
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:27,320
Speaker 2: I don't know, who knows, I don't know, we don't

593
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:29,159
Speaker 2: I don't think anybody really knows how that's going to

594
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:31,200
Speaker 2: plan out yet. But but yes, in terms of the

595
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:35,000
Speaker 2: valuation process, I do look at other players, especially in

596
00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:37,720
Speaker 2: positions of need for us, you know, like safety or

597
00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:40,000
Speaker 2: even a linebacker, tight end.

598
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:41,040
Speaker 3: All those.

599
00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:45,040
Speaker 2: Things come into play for us. And then if there's

600
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:46,640
Speaker 2: ever any you know, if we have a couple of

601
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:48,760
Speaker 2: linebackers who are great at about the same level, well,

602
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:50,760
Speaker 2: who's the better special teams player who can bring more

603
00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:53,320
Speaker 2: value to our roster? And so I think that comes

604
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:53,800
Speaker 2: into play.

605
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:56,680
Speaker 1: Ampa McPherson is going into the final year of his

606
00:28:56,760 --> 00:29:00,239
Speaker 1: rookie contract. There are seven kickers in the NFL right

607
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:03,000
Speaker 1: now making more than five million dollars a year. Do

608
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:06,440
Speaker 1: you know if discussions have begun about extending Evan.

609
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:09,239
Speaker 2: No, I think that that thing will. I don't know

610
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:11,280
Speaker 2: that for a fact. I try to stay out of

611
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:14,560
Speaker 2: that area as much as I can. I do recognize

612
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:16,800
Speaker 2: it's a it's a relevant part, is a relevant part

613
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:19,600
Speaker 2: for him, but I try to stay out of that

614
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:21,760
Speaker 2: area as much as I can, and I just try

615
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:23,600
Speaker 2: to get him to make as many kicks as he

616
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:27,360
Speaker 2: possibly can. Obviously, somebody that we have a high degree

617
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:31,120
Speaker 2: of affection for, he's done a good job here for us.

618
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 2: He's been he's been really superb for us in the clutch,

619
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 2: and I think he recognizes, you know, what's at stake

620
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:41,760
Speaker 2: for him. I think he's recognized that since day one.

621
00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 2: You know that he wants to be, you know, a

622
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:46,920
Speaker 2: big part of this franchise and a big part of

623
00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:49,440
Speaker 2: our success. And hopefully that'll hopefully something can get done.

624
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:52,680
Speaker 1: All right, final topic, you have a new assistant. Cold

625
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:55,640
Speaker 1: Anderson left with Brian Callahan for Tennessee to become his

626
00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:59,000
Speaker 1: special teams coordinator. You have hired Ben Jacobs, who's been

627
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:02,560
Speaker 1: in Washington for the last last four years, as your assistant. Now,

628
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 1: he was a core special teams player in his playing days.

629
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,240
Speaker 1: What impressed you about Ben in the interview process?

630
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:12,480
Speaker 2: Well, I think it's intensity. I mean he oddly enough,

631
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:14,920
Speaker 2: Ben was on our practice squad here for a week

632
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:17,760
Speaker 2: or two during one of those seasons early in his career.

633
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 2: But you know, I've watched him from afar, from having

634
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:23,040
Speaker 2: coached against him, from all the different places he's been,

635
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:25,240
Speaker 2: whether it be a Carolina or you know, just the

636
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:28,600
Speaker 2: various places that he played, and he played with a

637
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:33,120
Speaker 2: level of recklessness and intensity that it's hard to find.

638
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 2: And I've also watched him coach on the field in

639
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:38,800
Speaker 2: the same settings, whether it be in preseason games or

640
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:41,080
Speaker 2: you know, he's actually been the special teams coordinator for

641
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:45,360
Speaker 2: several of these postseason college bowl games, you know, the

642
00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:48,200
Speaker 2: Shrine Bowl, even at the Senior Bowl, and so I've

643
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 2: watched him coach from AFAR and I also, you know,

644
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:55,920
Speaker 2: obviously the way that the commanders play too on special

645
00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:59,160
Speaker 2: teams is a direct reflection of what he brings. And

646
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:02,240
Speaker 2: so I've always respect to the toughness and the physicalness

647
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:04,160
Speaker 2: that the way that the Commander's played, I know he's

648
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:07,080
Speaker 2: had a hand in that, and so that affects also

649
00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:09,960
Speaker 2: my opinion of what those guys do and how those

650
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:13,200
Speaker 2: guys are. And so I think that I'm excited for

651
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:14,800
Speaker 2: our players to get to know him a little bit.

652
00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:18,280
Speaker 2: They'll see his passion, They'll see that he's transitioned from

653
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:20,760
Speaker 2: his playing days, and I think he understands now his

654
00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:23,280
Speaker 2: job is to get those guys to play with the

655
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:26,320
Speaker 2: same toughness, the same same physicalness that he did, only

656
00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:29,560
Speaker 2: at the higher level it with better execution. So no,

657
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 2: I'm really excited that we got Ben. I think you'll

658
00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:35,160
Speaker 2: fit well with our players, and you know, and with

659
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:36,840
Speaker 2: me too, So I'm excited.

660
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:39,880
Speaker 1: I've taken a lot of your time. I really appreciate it.

661
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:42,400
Speaker 1: I'm fascinated by the new kickoff role. I think it's

662
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:45,040
Speaker 1: going to be fun to watch this year. We'll see

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00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:47,640
Speaker 1: how it goes. Thanks again, well, thanks for having me.

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00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:50,040
Speaker 2: I always enjoy, always enjoy talking with you for talking football.

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00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:52,640
Speaker 1: That's going to do it for this episode of the

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00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 1: Bengals Booth Podcast, brought to you by pay Corps, Proud

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Speaker 1: If you haven't done so already, please subscribe to this

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Speaker 1: rating or share a comment that helps more Bengals fans

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Speaker 1: find us. I'm Dan Horde and thank you for listening

676
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:28,040
Speaker 1: to The Bengals Booth Podcast