1 00:00:01,480 --> 00:00:04,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of I 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:13,680 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. 3 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:18,040 Speaker 1: There's the beautiful and illustrious Charles W. Chuck Bryant right there, 4 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:22,599 Speaker 1: and there's the equally awesome Jerry Droom Rowland right here 5 00:00:22,640 --> 00:00:25,599 Speaker 1: to my right, about to chow down on some stuff 6 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 1: for lunch. You were just cussing her out before we 7 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:30,840 Speaker 1: hit record. What are you talking about? And this is 8 00:00:30,920 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 1: stuff you should know? That's right, the Disordered Edition. Uh yeah, 9 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 1: this was a bit of a mess about Damascus Steel. 10 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:43,760 Speaker 1: It's just my favorite American gladiator. Oh that's a good one, Chuck, 11 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:45,639 Speaker 1: pretty good. Yeah, that was great. It's all I could 12 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:51,120 Speaker 1: think about was that off the cuff. Okay, it's off 13 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:52,960 Speaker 1: the cuff in that. I thought about it five minutes 14 00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:56,920 Speaker 1: before we came in here. It's still counts. It's good. Well, 15 00:00:57,000 --> 00:00:59,120 Speaker 1: it wasn't a real character, right, This is a joke. No, 16 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 1: but it sounds like it does. Okay. I wanted to 17 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 1: make sure we're on the same page. I also wanted 18 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:05,800 Speaker 1: to take your joke and mash it into pieces. Good job, 19 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 1: Thank you. So um, we're talking today about Damascus Steel, 20 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 1: which I was perfectly aware of before this, but I 21 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:15,399 Speaker 1: didn't know at all by any stretch. And what it 22 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:17,600 Speaker 1: turns out that apparently a lot of people who write 23 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:22,280 Speaker 1: about Domescus steel don't know, is that there was a 24 00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:27,920 Speaker 1: metal metallurgical mystery that developed over time that was only 25 00:01:27,959 --> 00:01:32,080 Speaker 1: solved in the nineties that other people, yes exactly, thank you, 26 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 1: that other people have you know, tried and maybe somewhat 27 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 1: contributed to. And now, finally, thanks to the um the 28 00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:43,160 Speaker 1: efforts of these metall aregists who really got involved and 29 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 1: tried to figure this out, this mystery has been solved. 30 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 1: But it's possible that had they really not taken up 31 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:52,200 Speaker 1: this this gauntlet and tried to figure out what was 32 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:56,720 Speaker 1: Damascus steel, we might never have known, because even if 33 00:01:56,720 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 1: you rewind all the way back two thousand years ago 34 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:02,680 Speaker 1: when Damascus steel was started in production, they had no 35 00:02:02,720 --> 00:02:05,560 Speaker 1: idea what Damascus steel was. Either. No, it's kind of 36 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 1: an accidental find. Uh. If you look up Damascus steel 37 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:15,799 Speaker 1: on a picture viewer on the Internet, you will probably say, oh, 38 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:20,639 Speaker 1: it's like those cool swords or knives or guns that 39 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 1: have that cool like wavy watery etching on them, like 40 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:29,880 Speaker 1: Game of Thrones. Even talks about Damascus steel, and or 41 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:32,200 Speaker 1: or if you're an interior designer and you're like, I've 42 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:35,360 Speaker 1: never seen a sword. It's like the damask material that 43 00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:39,600 Speaker 1: sometimes people used for window treatments. That pattern is the same. Yeah, 44 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:42,639 Speaker 1: and that spelled D A M A S K. Yes. 45 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:46,640 Speaker 1: But it is based on that yes, exactly, um, and 46 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 1: it is gorgeous stuff. Like if you see a if 47 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:50,720 Speaker 1: you're a knife collector or whatever, and you collect like 48 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:53,200 Speaker 1: a new knife that says Damascus steel, or a gun 49 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:56,560 Speaker 1: that has a cool pattern. That is what we're gonna 50 00:02:56,600 --> 00:03:00,400 Speaker 1: refer to as quote unquote Damascus steel. It is not 51 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:03,520 Speaker 1: the original, it's not the o G Damascus steel. It 52 00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:06,120 Speaker 1: is something that people have learned to do these days 53 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:09,800 Speaker 1: to look like Damascus steel, and that itself, the technique 54 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:11,920 Speaker 1: they used from what I saw, was actually based on 55 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:15,120 Speaker 1: a pretty ancient technique as well. But it's still not 56 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:18,080 Speaker 1: Damascus steel now. And the reason why anybody would care 57 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:21,200 Speaker 1: about Damascus steel is not just the way it looked, right, 58 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:25,160 Speaker 1: which I think that if Damascus steel didn't have that 59 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 1: very characteristic watery look to the to the steel, UM, 60 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:31,919 Speaker 1: I don't think people would have taken up that quest 61 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 1: to recreate it. Yeah, I think that's really part of 62 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 1: its a lure that drew the metal or just sin 63 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:39,600 Speaker 1: at least. Well, yeah, it's um, I mean we should 64 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 1: go ahead and say the allurea is a few fold. 65 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 1: It is super cool looking. Yeah, I can't deny it. 66 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:48,240 Speaker 1: I won't. But if it's super cool and like your 67 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 1: sword breaks on some guy's suit of armor, he's not 68 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:53,760 Speaker 1: gonna be like that was a pretty cool story. I 69 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 1: feel bad for you. Let's just call it even know 70 00:03:56,160 --> 00:03:59,840 Speaker 1: you're dead meat. So uh, it is super super strong 71 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 1: and super cool looking and very flexible for a metal. 72 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:08,280 Speaker 1: It's got all these cool properties kind of all wrapped 73 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:11,320 Speaker 1: up into one and it's it's like this super super 74 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 1: steel super steel. That's exactly what it wasn't It was 75 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:16,960 Speaker 1: produced in the ancient world. We here in the modern 76 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:19,240 Speaker 1: world don't like to think of people in the ancient 77 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:23,680 Speaker 1: world having better steal than we have. Well they didn't really. 78 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 1: I mean, supposedly modern steel is better than even O G. Damascus. 79 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 1: Think supposedly is the operative word. So um. But there 80 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 1: was a period in time from at least I think 81 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:37,960 Speaker 1: the first mentioned in the West that we are aware 82 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:40,920 Speaker 1: of comes from like the third or fourth century b c. 83 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:44,760 Speaker 1: Where the Greeks, I think Alexander the Great is basically 84 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:47,880 Speaker 1: like this stuff is awesome. Yeah, um, And so it 85 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:50,400 Speaker 1: was well known by that time, you know, more than 86 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:53,200 Speaker 1: two thousand years ago for being the steel you wanted 87 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 1: to use if you were creating a weapon. Yeah. And 88 00:04:56,480 --> 00:04:58,200 Speaker 1: you know, let's go back in time a bit. If 89 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 1: you're a swordmaker couple of thousand years ago, you've got 90 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:05,000 Speaker 1: your work cut out for you because you don't really 91 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:07,440 Speaker 1: know what you're doing yet, Like you don't know what 92 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 1: kind of of metal that you're getting. And if you 93 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:13,120 Speaker 1: get some iron, iron is going to have other properties 94 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:15,200 Speaker 1: in there. But you just kind of have what you have. 95 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:18,360 Speaker 1: And the R and D process. If you imagine how 96 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:21,680 Speaker 1: long it takes to forge a sword. Then you go 97 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:24,320 Speaker 1: out there and swing it and it breaks, You're like, 98 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:27,479 Speaker 1: all right, let me try again, but maybe let me 99 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 1: try a different uh type of or or different type 100 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:33,359 Speaker 1: of iron. And swords are long and their thin, and 101 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 1: it's just the very nature of making a broadsword is 102 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 1: really difficult. To make it super strong and sharp and 103 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:43,720 Speaker 1: all the things that you like not so heavy that 104 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 1: you can't even carry it. So they were sort of 105 00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:48,720 Speaker 1: I mean they were brilliant in one sense that they 106 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:51,760 Speaker 1: were figuring this stuff out on the fly, but they 107 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:55,320 Speaker 1: were also just sort of victims of whatever materials they 108 00:05:55,360 --> 00:06:00,760 Speaker 1: had available. So that's what makes Damascus steel so interesting 109 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:02,920 Speaker 1: to me is that it was a fluke of nature 110 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:06,120 Speaker 1: and it happened to be mined. As we'll see, it 111 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:07,760 Speaker 1: was a fluke of nature. It happened to be mine 112 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:11,800 Speaker 1: in this one area in South India. Um, and it 113 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:16,120 Speaker 1: just so happens that this particular iron ore that was 114 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:19,679 Speaker 1: being mined in the area made some of the finest 115 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:22,880 Speaker 1: steel the world's ever seen. Yeah. So they called it 116 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:27,039 Speaker 1: woots w O O t z steel. And like you said, 117 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:32,279 Speaker 1: it was mine near Hyderabad, India, into these two point 118 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:35,400 Speaker 1: three to two point five km cakes or ingots by 119 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:37,400 Speaker 1: the size of a hockey puck I saw. Yeah. So 120 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:39,560 Speaker 1: they would shift these things out and they were mining, 121 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:42,239 Speaker 1: and they didn't know like, hey, we've got this secret 122 00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:45,280 Speaker 1: super metal that you know, no one is going to 123 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:48,560 Speaker 1: believe what we're sending them. They were just mining stuff 124 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 1: and they sent a lot of this to Damascus in 125 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:55,919 Speaker 1: Syria and they made them into swords. And most people 126 00:06:55,960 --> 00:06:58,800 Speaker 1: think that's probably where the name comes from. Even though 127 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:02,840 Speaker 1: some people do say the root word uh Damas and 128 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:06,000 Speaker 1: Arabic is watered. Oh, I didn't know that that could 129 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 1: have been like one of the things. But my money 130 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:10,520 Speaker 1: is on the fact that they sent them to Damascus 131 00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:12,720 Speaker 1: and the ship it makes sense. Yeah, I mean, I 132 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 1: guess it depends on how old the city of Damascus is, 133 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:17,680 Speaker 1: but I get the impression it's pretty old. It's not young. 134 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:20,520 Speaker 1: But watery steel makes a lot of sense to for 135 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 1: that particular type of steel. Maybe it was either way, 136 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 1: it was very It was well known outside of the 137 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:33,120 Speaker 1: Middle East and West Asia and India um as like 138 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 1: the go to steel. But at the time, like you 139 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:40,520 Speaker 1: were saying, they don't seem to have understood, um that 140 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:43,560 Speaker 1: what they had on their hands was just this incredibly 141 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 1: high grade steel, just perfect steel for making weapons. I 142 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:50,080 Speaker 1: get the impression that the metal smith's tended to take 143 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:54,200 Speaker 1: all the credit for it, where in retrospect, you or 144 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 1: I could have taken a lump of woots steel and 145 00:07:57,080 --> 00:07:58,920 Speaker 1: just hammered it with our elbows, you know, would have 146 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:01,400 Speaker 1: turned into like a world class sword, you know, yeah, 147 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:04,880 Speaker 1: or at least something you could punch somebody, right, But 148 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:09,200 Speaker 1: the metal smith's over the years. Um, kind of circle 149 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:11,800 Speaker 1: the wagons and pretended like they had some great secret 150 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:14,920 Speaker 1: or technique and maybe even thought that they did. But really, 151 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:17,800 Speaker 1: as we'll see, the secret ingredients, we're all in the 152 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:21,119 Speaker 1: steel that was being mined from India. Yeah, but also 153 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:24,640 Speaker 1: in the technique, which we'll get to as well. But um, 154 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 1: but I think that was happenstance more than yeah, then understood. 155 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:30,640 Speaker 1: I think, so we know that what they should have 156 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:32,560 Speaker 1: done to see if they had the good stuff. They 157 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 1: should have dabbed their pinky and it touched it to 158 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:38,560 Speaker 1: their tongue, rob their gums with it. Yeah, that's how 159 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 1: you know you got the good that's true. All right. 160 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:44,240 Speaker 1: So where were we We were in the Crusaders, right. 161 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:47,839 Speaker 1: The Crusaders get a hold of these things, and they 162 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:50,360 Speaker 1: kind of did what they wanted to do. Yeah, we 163 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 1: should do an episode on the Crusades. No, okay, fair enough. 164 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:58,680 Speaker 1: I feel like we've talked about this before. Uh so 165 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 1: this is the beginning of the eleventh century. They got 166 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:04,880 Speaker 1: these swords off the battlefield, and there's there's a lot 167 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 1: of lower that surrounds this Damascus steel, like you could 168 00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:11,000 Speaker 1: cut a silk scarf that was falling through the air. 169 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:13,240 Speaker 1: What about a feather, because you cut a feather, cut 170 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:15,400 Speaker 1: that feather right in half. What about a hair? You 171 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:17,680 Speaker 1: can split that hair right into my friend long ways? 172 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:22,000 Speaker 1: Oh I thought you just met No, I'm talking bugs 173 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:25,360 Speaker 1: bunny style. Yeah, you could split that hair. Um. But 174 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:28,079 Speaker 1: all this was lower. It was really good stuff. Nonetheless, 175 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:29,760 Speaker 1: but there are a lot of like you know, sort 176 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:33,439 Speaker 1: of ancient stories about the properties, like the magical properties 177 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:36,400 Speaker 1: of this steel. Right. Well, I saw one thing, though 178 00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:38,480 Speaker 1: I don't think it has anything to do with magic, 179 00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:43,240 Speaker 1: but I saw it from a metallurgy website. Somebody took 180 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:45,440 Speaker 1: a bunch of notes off I guess some lecture, and 181 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 1: I'm not entirely certain what the lecture was, but it 182 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 1: was pretty intense. But they said that this would cost 183 00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:55,079 Speaker 1: about the equivalent of a car today. One of these swords, 184 00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:58,080 Speaker 1: one of these weapons. So they were highly prized. So 185 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:02,440 Speaker 1: you can imagine the Crusaders coming back to Europe and saying, hey, smithie, 186 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:07,320 Speaker 1: um make me something like this. And from from what 187 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 1: I understand, what the smith's came up with, because they 188 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 1: were hamstrung by the iron that they had to work with, 189 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:18,560 Speaker 1: they came up with a different technique for creating a 190 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:22,160 Speaker 1: type of Damascus steel that isn't true Damascus steel, but 191 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:25,920 Speaker 1: became so widespread and basically all Europe had to offer 192 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 1: that it became what's known as a type of Damascus 193 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:33,680 Speaker 1: steel pattern well to Damascus steel, right, and that is 194 00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:37,120 Speaker 1: you know, it's still strong and it has that nice 195 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:43,760 Speaker 1: looking you know, watery uh etching or whatever. But it 196 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:46,280 Speaker 1: kept them from getting their heads cut off. Probably it 197 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:48,840 Speaker 1: was good enough, yeah, I would say, but it's off 198 00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:52,000 Speaker 1: market Damascus steel. It's the knights of the round table 199 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:55,480 Speaker 1: of Damascus steel, you know what I mean? Sure, because 200 00:10:55,520 --> 00:10:58,840 Speaker 1: it wasn't that woots. You gotta have that woots, right, 201 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:01,000 Speaker 1: But they didn't know that at the time. So because 202 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:05,240 Speaker 1: they were able to form that watery pattern from taking um, 203 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:08,800 Speaker 1: two different kinds of steel, that's what pattern well, the 204 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:12,080 Speaker 1: Damascus steel is made from use at least two different kinds, 205 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 1: apparently ultimately for the color contrast. Because that creates that 206 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:22,520 Speaker 1: watery patterns, the two kinds of steel hammered into one another. 207 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:25,960 Speaker 1: That creates the pattern in in that type, which makes 208 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:28,199 Speaker 1: it not really true Damascus steel. If you have true 209 00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:33,280 Speaker 1: Damascus steel, that pattern goes all the way through that 210 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:36,760 Speaker 1: that Damascus steel blade like you can, Yes, you can 211 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 1: wear it down and wear it down until you make 212 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 1: it through the other side. And that water patterns all 213 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:43,839 Speaker 1: the way through. See that is pretty cool, Like it's 214 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:46,800 Speaker 1: a part of the the or itself at that point. 215 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:51,080 Speaker 1: Absolutely that is what differentiates true Damascus steel from anything else. 216 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 1: That's right, And boy, I can't wait to talk about 217 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:54,800 Speaker 1: that stuff at the end. How they figure this out? 218 00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:57,599 Speaker 1: I know, I feel like we've been paying this out tantalizingly. 219 00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:00,240 Speaker 1: All right, well, we'll take a break here and talk 220 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:02,960 Speaker 1: about some of the efforts over the years to try 221 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:05,200 Speaker 1: and figure out what this uh what the steel was? 222 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:38,959 Speaker 1: Right after this? Okay, chuck, this is going so well, 223 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:43,520 Speaker 1: by the way, Uh, should we tell people that we've 224 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 1: had some technical difficulties as well? They're probably like, why 225 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 1: is wrong with these Yeah, and we're kind of giggly 226 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:52,439 Speaker 1: and we're not drunk but dry. Didn't bring champagne today. 227 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:56,679 Speaker 1: Rare technical difficulties have causes to have to redo some stuff. 228 00:12:56,760 --> 00:12:58,960 Speaker 1: We're just not used to that or not. Usually everything 229 00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:04,520 Speaker 1: runs like a Swiss watch around here, Swiss army knife 230 00:13:04,559 --> 00:13:07,040 Speaker 1: with the corkscrew outgoing right up our butts. That's more 231 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:10,040 Speaker 1: what it's like we gotta say that it's not Jerry's fault. No, 232 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:13,720 Speaker 1: we would never blame Jerry for something like somebody. It's 233 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:15,680 Speaker 1: like the three little pigs. Somebody has been sleeping in 234 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:18,520 Speaker 1: our bed, you know, that's what I blame. Somebody got 235 00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:21,040 Speaker 1: in our studio and and touch some stuff. Yes, well, 236 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 1: they're gonna be very surprised by the padlock that they 237 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:27,760 Speaker 1: encountered exactly. And you're like, and there's only one key, 238 00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:30,000 Speaker 1: and I swallow, I'm gonna have to get it out 239 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 1: with the Swiss Army corkscrew. Alright. So from the beginning 240 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:36,280 Speaker 1: they started to try and recreate this stuff. And you know, 241 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:38,800 Speaker 1: like I said, that was during the eleventh century, and 242 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:41,199 Speaker 1: then it just sort of that. It seems like it 243 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 1: just continued on throughout the ages of people trying to 244 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:46,920 Speaker 1: recreate this. Yes, but at the same time, they were 245 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:50,480 Speaker 1: still able to keep making Damascus steel from India, the 246 00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:53,440 Speaker 1: quote unquote Damascus steel up until depending on no, no, 247 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:55,720 Speaker 1: the real stuff. Oh yeah, because they had this ingod 248 00:13:55,920 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 1: yes up until um and I think India was still 249 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:00,840 Speaker 1: producing it up until depending on you ask, either the 250 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:03,840 Speaker 1: eighteenth century or the nineteenth century, right, good point. And 251 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:07,840 Speaker 1: then all of a sudden, Damascus steel just stops and 252 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:10,520 Speaker 1: all you have is the pattern. Well that you cannot 253 00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:16,560 Speaker 1: find true Damascus steel anymore. And it was quite perplexing 254 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:18,719 Speaker 1: to a lot of people, it was. And they were 255 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:22,280 Speaker 1: making uh, they're making guns, gun barrels with the stuff. 256 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:25,040 Speaker 1: That's how long it continued. Yeah, And that's I think 257 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:28,480 Speaker 1: that's supposedly what supplanted Damascus steel in a lot of 258 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 1: people's mind, because some people said they didn't even realize 259 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:34,320 Speaker 1: that there was a mystery to damascus stell. He just 260 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 1: thought it had been supplanted by advances in steelmaking, so 261 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:41,640 Speaker 1: you didn't need Damascus steel anymore. And another explanation I 262 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:45,600 Speaker 1: saw was that Domascus steel is actually terrible for um 263 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:49,480 Speaker 1: rifling in the gun barrel because that watery pattern would 264 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:53,480 Speaker 1: actually hold onto the powder residue and that your gun 265 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:57,200 Speaker 1: would be likelier to backfire, but it would. It was 266 00:14:57,240 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 1: actually very useful in that you could make a gun 267 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:03,640 Speaker 1: barrel which is long and narrow from this Damascus steel 268 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:06,720 Speaker 1: because that's the special kind of steel that stays strong 269 00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:11,240 Speaker 1: even when you're elongating it, right, And I mean, let's 270 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:14,560 Speaker 1: be honest, the people wielding those guns were like, this 271 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:17,920 Speaker 1: is pretty boss. It is. But I also think, you know, 272 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:20,520 Speaker 1: if I'm on the battlefield, I want the guy who's 273 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:23,920 Speaker 1: just who only cares about the function of his gun, 274 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:26,480 Speaker 1: not the guy who's admiring what his gun looks like. 275 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:28,160 Speaker 1: You know what I mean, Like when you're walking through 276 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:30,240 Speaker 1: the old gun market, you want the guy that's like, 277 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:34,440 Speaker 1: she's ugly, but she shoots straight. That's right, Yes, the 278 00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 1: guy from Jaws. Is that Quint? Yeah? Uh so this 279 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:42,560 Speaker 1: one guy there was a Russian medal are just named 280 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:47,160 Speaker 1: p Anasoft and he thought that he had it all 281 00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:49,920 Speaker 1: figured out. They called it. He called it blat. And 282 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:53,840 Speaker 1: he even said and no, in certain terms, our warriors 283 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:57,640 Speaker 1: will soon be armed with bulat blades. Are agricultural laborers 284 00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:01,360 Speaker 1: will till the soil with bulat plows airs, Bulat will 285 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:07,480 Speaker 1: supersed all steel. And he didn't. It didn't work. He didn't, No, 286 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:11,680 Speaker 1: And he actually was part of this initial wave of scientists. 287 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:14,800 Speaker 1: I think as metallurgy was really developing, because we said, 288 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:19,760 Speaker 1: before the ancients had it was all just intuition and technique, 289 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:22,480 Speaker 1: and they knew what, you know, they were doing, but 290 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:24,880 Speaker 1: they also couldn't be like, oh, it's because of this 291 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:28,400 Speaker 1: that's happening on a microscopic level. Right, of course, they 292 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:32,680 Speaker 1: didn't have microscopes and no chemistry. You can thank Anto 293 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:37,160 Speaker 1: Van Levin Hook for that, that's right. Um. But as 294 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:40,360 Speaker 1: metallurgy started to develop, as science itself started to develop 295 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:42,880 Speaker 1: as a field, that was a sub discipline that really 296 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:44,600 Speaker 1: kind of came around. And one of the things they 297 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:47,000 Speaker 1: tried to figure out was what was the deal with 298 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:49,080 Speaker 1: Damascus steel. It was one of the first things they 299 00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:53,120 Speaker 1: really applied their mind to. And um, Michael Faraday actually 300 00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 1: who is the guy who crosses over from this episode 301 00:16:56,640 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 1: to the other one today. He was the son of 302 00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:03,200 Speaker 1: a blacksmith, very him a scientist, the father of electricity. Um. 303 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:06,359 Speaker 1: He tried his hand at figuring out what Damascus steel was. 304 00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:09,400 Speaker 1: And what everybody kind of had a suspicion was that 305 00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:12,760 Speaker 1: the steel had more carbon than that your average steel, 306 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:15,640 Speaker 1: but there had to be some secret ingredient. And so 307 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:18,159 Speaker 1: it kind of became trendy in the first half of 308 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:21,600 Speaker 1: the nineteenth century among metal or just in just scientists 309 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:25,120 Speaker 1: in general to figure out what that secret third ingredient was. Yeah, 310 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:27,240 Speaker 1: and there were a lot of attempts I think in 311 00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:30,360 Speaker 1: that UM. I think Faraday thought it might have been 312 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:35,760 Speaker 1: silica and aluminum or aluminium to him. Oh yeah. In 313 00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:42,800 Speaker 1: the eighteen twenties, Jean Robert Brent at the Paris Meant 314 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:46,840 Speaker 1: did a six week study in the trial, and I 315 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:49,840 Speaker 1: think he did like three experiments he was trying to 316 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:58,680 Speaker 1: reproduce this woods unsuccessfully. I think he tried platinum, gold, silver, copper, tin, zinc, lead, 317 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:04,240 Speaker 1: this manganese he was close there, uranium, arsenic and boron, 318 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:08,399 Speaker 1: and then that Russian even tried diamond. Yes, it's like, 319 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:10,000 Speaker 1: let me throw some diamond in there and see what 320 00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:12,160 Speaker 1: that does. Why not at this point, like I think 321 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:16,880 Speaker 1: somebody melted down a kitchen sink. And then the whole 322 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 1: time they were like still hearing about this lore. Like 323 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:22,080 Speaker 1: I think by this point they didn't, you know, they 324 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:24,000 Speaker 1: knew if it came out of like these stories that 325 00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:26,080 Speaker 1: came out of the Middle Ages certainly were not true. 326 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:32,359 Speaker 1: But there were stories about about cooling it in dragon's blood, 327 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:35,160 Speaker 1: about quenching it and dragon's blood liking when you cool 328 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:38,560 Speaker 1: it down or red medicine or green medicine is what 329 00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:40,680 Speaker 1: they called it. There was also when I saw where 330 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:43,320 Speaker 1: you're supposed to quench it in the urine of a goat, 331 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:46,520 Speaker 1: that's been fed nothing but ferns for three days is real. 332 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:49,879 Speaker 1: It's real. I mean it's not real obviously, but no, 333 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:51,840 Speaker 1: but I can't tell if you're making it up. No, no, no, 334 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:55,680 Speaker 1: that I wish I were that clever. That was pretty good. 335 00:18:55,720 --> 00:19:01,879 Speaker 1: That sounded like a you joke. Uh oh, a you joke. No, Okay, 336 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:06,960 Speaker 1: that's sheep. Right, Um, let me see. They had to 337 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:09,240 Speaker 1: have been heated until it glowed like the rising sun 338 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:12,880 Speaker 1: in the desert, and then cool to royal purple and 339 00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:16,880 Speaker 1: plunge into the body of a muscular slave to transfer 340 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:20,320 Speaker 1: the strength of that person into the sword. So obviously, 341 00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:23,439 Speaker 1: in the eighteen hundreds they know all of this is hogwash, right, 342 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:26,119 Speaker 1: But over the thousands of years that Domascus steel have 343 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:28,639 Speaker 1: been produced, like these are the lower that kind of 344 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:31,280 Speaker 1: developed around, right, Yeah, I mean, and they were. They 345 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:33,119 Speaker 1: wanted to keep this stuff a secret. That's one of 346 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:36,560 Speaker 1: the reasons. Aside from running out of that original woots. 347 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:40,280 Speaker 1: Another factor was the fact that they didn't, you know, 348 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:42,960 Speaker 1: spread this around. You wanted to if you if you 349 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:44,960 Speaker 1: knew something like this, you wanted to keep it in 350 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:47,760 Speaker 1: the family. I think, well that's what a lot of 351 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:50,320 Speaker 1: people thought. So so you have a whole like the 352 00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:54,160 Speaker 1: whole world is just confused about Damascus Steel and and 353 00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:57,280 Speaker 1: will be and was until this episode comes out where 354 00:19:57,280 --> 00:20:00,399 Speaker 1: we finally explain the deal. But there were different camps 355 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:02,720 Speaker 1: running around, Like we said, some people were aware that 356 00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:06,760 Speaker 1: Domeascus steel just wasn't around anymore, uh, and that something 357 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:10,200 Speaker 1: had happened. Other people just thought it was supplanted by 358 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:15,240 Speaker 1: increasingly better technology. Um so what other people thought, And 359 00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:19,400 Speaker 1: the most interesting idea to me was that the smiths 360 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:23,960 Speaker 1: who created these these incredible blades, like you said, kept 361 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:27,080 Speaker 1: it in the family and then just some generation failed 362 00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:29,919 Speaker 1: to tell the next generation. The secret was lost forever. 363 00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:34,960 Speaker 1: And that is really like up the Damascus Steel alley 364 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:39,160 Speaker 1: that it shrouded in mystery and secrecy and magic and dragons, 365 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:42,840 Speaker 1: blood and furn eating goats that p all over the place, 366 00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:46,439 Speaker 1: you know, And that's that's so it's really interesting. But 367 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:50,159 Speaker 1: no one knew exactly what was going on. They just 368 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:55,000 Speaker 1: knew that nobody was making true cast domestics Damascus steel anymore. 369 00:20:56,240 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 1: Should we take another break? Alright, this third act, you guys, 370 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:02,760 Speaker 1: just get ready, it's gonna knock your socks off right 371 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:35,240 Speaker 1: after this. All right, So everyone's trying to make this stuff. 372 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:40,680 Speaker 1: Everyone's trying to recreate it. The answer is, uh, it's 373 00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:43,359 Speaker 1: kind of right under their nose. But it's not because 374 00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:45,919 Speaker 1: it's not under their nose because this stuff had been 375 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:49,280 Speaker 1: gone for a long time, dried up that woots, dried 376 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:55,000 Speaker 1: the w up and was was gone. Uh. And then 377 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:58,840 Speaker 1: I think it was when was this in the nineteen 378 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:03,280 Speaker 1: sixties that a guy named CS Smith and he was 379 00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:05,560 Speaker 1: a medal or just the Chief Metal or just the 380 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:09,600 Speaker 1: Manhattan Project. He wrote a paper about Damascus steel and 381 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:12,080 Speaker 1: again this is the nineteen sixties, and and said this 382 00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:14,800 Speaker 1: stuff was lost to history and a bunch of people 383 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:16,840 Speaker 1: tried over the years to recreate it. He kind of 384 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:19,159 Speaker 1: like laid down the gauntlet like this is a this 385 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:21,840 Speaker 1: is a metallurgical mystery, guys. Yeah, and it seemed like 386 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:24,159 Speaker 1: it's sort of kicked off a renewed interest here in 387 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:27,520 Speaker 1: the mid twentieth century. It definitely did. It became kind 388 00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:30,679 Speaker 1: of like the I don't want to say Holy Grail 389 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:33,760 Speaker 1: because it's just so cliche, but it is pretty accurate 390 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:37,399 Speaker 1: among metal or just to figure out Damascus steel and 391 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:40,000 Speaker 1: to recreate it too, I think it's fair. So there 392 00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:43,520 Speaker 1: was there were many attempts. Like we said, there had 393 00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:48,240 Speaker 1: been previously many attempts back in the nineteenth century. But um, 394 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:52,960 Speaker 1: I think in the seventies a pair of Stanford researchers 395 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:55,880 Speaker 1: really kind of thought they had cracked this. And and 396 00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:58,080 Speaker 1: as I was saying at the outside of this episode, 397 00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:02,760 Speaker 1: they weren't entirely raw. They just didn't complete the thought 398 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:05,960 Speaker 1: they thought they had. But they didn't. They figured out 399 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:09,560 Speaker 1: one very important part and they actually did it by accident. Um. 400 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:13,040 Speaker 1: They were looking up ways to make metal that is 401 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:17,159 Speaker 1: much more shapeable but still equally strong, because you had 402 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:19,920 Speaker 1: said these early smiths, where you know, they knew some 403 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:23,640 Speaker 1: metals were strong, some metals were um hard, some metals 404 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:26,080 Speaker 1: would break easily, but you could fold them into shapes 405 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:28,840 Speaker 1: or whatever. They these guys were looking for a kind 406 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:32,160 Speaker 1: of metal that you that was extremely strong but also shapable, 407 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:35,359 Speaker 1: and they came up with this super plastic metal. And 408 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:38,639 Speaker 1: somebody said, I think this is kind of similar to 409 00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 1: Damascus steel. Yeah. Their names were Dr Jeffrey Wadsworth and 410 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:48,200 Speaker 1: Dr o Leg Sherby the Sherbs And that's a good 411 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:52,040 Speaker 1: movie name. Dr o Leg Sherby, Uh so there, Yeah, 412 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:54,639 Speaker 1: And trying to find the superplastic metal. They found something 413 00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:57,720 Speaker 1: that I think someone at one of their presentations a 414 00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:01,600 Speaker 1: swordsman stood up in the movie version from the crowd 415 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:06,040 Speaker 1: yeah and said, hey, this is uh, this is very 416 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:07,800 Speaker 1: much like Damascus steel, which was you know, it was 417 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:13,119 Speaker 1: very rich in carbon. And they went, what carbon or 418 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:15,399 Speaker 1: did they already know it was carbon? Surely this was 419 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:19,160 Speaker 1: not the reveal, right, they knew that this high carbon 420 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:24,560 Speaker 1: um content was making their steel super plastic. And I 421 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:29,480 Speaker 1: think the swordsman Zoro will call him, said surebs Um, 422 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:33,119 Speaker 1: I think that Damascus steel also was high in carbon, 423 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:35,439 Speaker 1: and I think maybe the super plastic thing is what 424 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:38,080 Speaker 1: you guys have stumbled on. Here is the secret to 425 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:41,160 Speaker 1: Damascus steel. Yeah, so let's go write a paper based 426 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:44,199 Speaker 1: on this Rando Stranger's thoughts. Yeah, and when, because I 427 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:46,399 Speaker 1: mean his name is Zoro, he carved in z in 428 00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:49,560 Speaker 1: my chest. Um, when we say a lot of carbon 429 00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:53,879 Speaker 1: between one and two, about one point five, which doesn't 430 00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:57,239 Speaker 1: sound like much, but regular steel has a fraction of 431 00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:00,320 Speaker 1: one percent of carbon. Yeah, so it's a lot for 432 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:06,080 Speaker 1: a sword. Yeah. I think anything over point seven or 433 00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:09,479 Speaker 1: point no point seven eight percent rounded a point eight 434 00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:13,439 Speaker 1: percent is considered ultra high carbon steel, So really not 435 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:17,120 Speaker 1: much like you said. But but as you add this carbon, 436 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:22,720 Speaker 1: it does start to give the metal different properties it 437 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:28,040 Speaker 1: UM and in particular with UH, with Damascus steel, it 438 00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:32,200 Speaker 1: turns out that that woots, that that woots alloy was 439 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:37,879 Speaker 1: a hyper u tectoid ferro carbon alloy, which means that 440 00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:41,080 Speaker 1: that word, it had so much carbon in it that 441 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:44,600 Speaker 1: there is um it changes the EU technic point. The 442 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:47,640 Speaker 1: EU technic point is the temperature where all the all 443 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:51,240 Speaker 1: the different materials that make up the alloys just separate 444 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:54,920 Speaker 1: their different materials. They're melted apart, they're no longer together. 445 00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:59,080 Speaker 1: This has so much carbon in it that the melting 446 00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:02,840 Speaker 1: point is actually after the U tecnic point, So this 447 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:05,919 Speaker 1: stuff can kind of fall apart either after the melting 448 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:08,679 Speaker 1: point or before the melting point, I can't remember. But 449 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:11,959 Speaker 1: it has to do with that, right and UM and 450 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:14,000 Speaker 1: we'll get to the other secret property. But there was 451 00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:18,280 Speaker 1: also technique involved in that to create this Damascus steel, 452 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:21,679 Speaker 1: you know, to forge a sword compared to other ores, 453 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:26,200 Speaker 1: you were you were hammering at a relatively lower temperature, yeah, 454 00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:29,359 Speaker 1: than you would normally. That was the other thing that UM. 455 00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:33,199 Speaker 1: The Sherbs and Wadsworth, we're saying was it has to 456 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:37,240 Speaker 1: do with this, but but on again a microscopic metallurgical level. 457 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:41,399 Speaker 1: What they came upon was we think that the true 458 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:45,040 Speaker 1: secret who's they gotta shot him out? Sherbs, Well, no, 459 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:48,360 Speaker 1: I'm still on them. I'm still on them. So Shrubs 460 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:51,159 Speaker 1: and Wadsworth said, we think that there's has to do 461 00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:55,159 Speaker 1: with these carbides that are forming. And so carbides are 462 00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:58,800 Speaker 1: a it's like iron and carbon mixed together, and in 463 00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:02,760 Speaker 1: particular what this form is called cementite. And these cementites 464 00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:08,360 Speaker 1: are forming as spheres and as you hammer and heat woots, 465 00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:14,680 Speaker 1: these iron carron iron carbides, spears align themselves just so 466 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:19,560 Speaker 1: with the shards of iron to create this really strong 467 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:24,240 Speaker 1: but also really resilient type of steel. Yeah, and this 468 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:27,639 Speaker 1: is something that you're looking at under a microscope, and 469 00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:29,679 Speaker 1: that is one of the problems and one of the 470 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:31,680 Speaker 1: reasons that it was so hard to figure this out 471 00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:34,040 Speaker 1: over the years is that in order to do that, 472 00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:36,680 Speaker 1: you have to take one of these blades and cut 473 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:39,520 Speaker 1: it into sections and put it under a microscope. And 474 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:42,400 Speaker 1: these were like rare collectible. So yeah, people weren't coming 475 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:44,399 Speaker 1: off of them very not much. I mean, there were 476 00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:47,040 Speaker 1: a few museums donated some pieces. And then there was 477 00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:51,000 Speaker 1: this guy, Henrie Moser, who was a collector. I think 478 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:55,640 Speaker 1: he had two thousand damask blades, and he donated two 479 00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:59,320 Speaker 1: daggers and four swords in the nineteen twenties to a 480 00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:03,720 Speaker 1: guy name uh z s h O k K. So 481 00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:09,360 Speaker 1: I'm gonna say shook, okay uh And so that that helped, obviously, 482 00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:11,480 Speaker 1: but but even hard to get ahold of this stuff 483 00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:13,600 Speaker 1: to to cut it up and put under a microscope, 484 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:16,120 Speaker 1: and that's problem one. But then even when you put 485 00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:19,000 Speaker 1: it under a microscope, you're like, what, Okay, I kind 486 00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:21,359 Speaker 1: of understand what I'm seeing, But then how do I 487 00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:24,359 Speaker 1: how do I recreate this? And even more to the point, 488 00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:28,200 Speaker 1: how did these ancient Smith's two thousand years ago create this? 489 00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:31,080 Speaker 1: So they figured out, yes, so they figured out that 490 00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:33,600 Speaker 1: the iron carbides are definitely a big part of it. 491 00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:38,280 Speaker 1: And Wadsworth and the Srubs took a victory lap. But 492 00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:42,280 Speaker 1: then C yeah, something like that. But then C. S. Smith, 493 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:44,880 Speaker 1: the metallurgist from the Manhattan Project, who I get the 494 00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:48,080 Speaker 1: impression he's kind of like this metallergy god. He's like, 495 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:50,600 Speaker 1: I don't think that's it. Everybody I don't think this 496 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:55,200 Speaker 1: is the true explanation. And so it remained unanswered for 497 00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:58,440 Speaker 1: another decade or so, and he checked in with the 498 00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:03,280 Speaker 1: other metallergy god on his right, Mr Bruce Dickinson, and 499 00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:06,520 Speaker 1: he said, make it so, that's right. Uh So then 500 00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:11,640 Speaker 1: these other dudes came along, um John deve Verhoeven from 501 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:16,000 Speaker 1: the University of Iowa, and then a smithy from Florida 502 00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:20,080 Speaker 1: named al Pendre, And they spent I think like four 503 00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:23,600 Speaker 1: or five years again like running all these trials trying 504 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:26,680 Speaker 1: to figure out what this last little secret sauce was. Yeah, 505 00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:28,760 Speaker 1: because so this is what he was up against. I 506 00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:31,040 Speaker 1: fight this may interject real quick. He was saying, was 507 00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:33,960 Speaker 1: it one of the components making up the slag? Was 508 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 1: it something being extracted from the crucible walls, the little 509 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:39,520 Speaker 1: pot you melted in? Was it the type of iron 510 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:41,960 Speaker 1: used to make it? Was at the time or temperature 511 00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:45,400 Speaker 1: used to heat the molten metal? Was at the cooling rate? Uh? 512 00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:47,960 Speaker 1: He had all these questions. He did not know what 513 00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:51,720 Speaker 1: it was. He just knew that Wadsworth and um the 514 00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:54,640 Speaker 1: Sherbs had not answered it yet. Right. Every time you 515 00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:56,880 Speaker 1: say Wadsworth and I want to think of the Muppet 516 00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:59,880 Speaker 1: show guys, was that there? No, I don't think it 517 00:29:59,920 --> 00:30:03,960 Speaker 1: was Wadsworth, but it was something like that, right, It 518 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:13,640 Speaker 1: was not Bergdorf, Bergdorf and Goodman. It was we'll figure 519 00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:18,520 Speaker 1: it out. Oh goodness, somebody screaming out there. I think 520 00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:22,520 Speaker 1: it was Walmart and wolver Worse that was them. Uh well, 521 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:24,680 Speaker 1: we don't look stuff up on the show. It's just 522 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:27,920 Speaker 1: a long standing role generally, right, Yes, because it's rude 523 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:33,320 Speaker 1: because we're actually sitting in front of each other. Uh so, 524 00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:35,360 Speaker 1: I mean I feel like you should announce it since 525 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:37,960 Speaker 1: you're the one who kind of no, really you got this, 526 00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:40,520 Speaker 1: all right? Just wanting to interject that one thing about 527 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:43,560 Speaker 1: like all the confounding factors that it could have possibly 528 00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:46,280 Speaker 1: been in that this guy's applying science to this, all right. 529 00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:48,360 Speaker 1: So what they found out was what happens on that 530 00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:52,120 Speaker 1: level was something that's called a micro segregation, which is 531 00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:55,360 Speaker 1: a chemical separation of alloy elements on very small scales 532 00:30:56,240 --> 00:31:00,320 Speaker 1: of low levels of carbide forming elements. They had a 533 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:06,320 Speaker 1: list of five things. Vanadium our newest best friend, Molly 534 00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:09,160 Speaker 1: b Yeah, I was on the list. It's so funny, 535 00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:11,120 Speaker 1: how like that's come up like three or four times. No, 536 00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:15,520 Speaker 1: I never even knew it existed until like a month ago. Chromium, manganese, 537 00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:21,280 Speaker 1: and neobium. And what they found out was the winner overall, 538 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:25,720 Speaker 1: ladies and gentlemen, was vanadium. Yes, the chemical element V 539 00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:27,920 Speaker 1: with a little bit of manganese they said, that has 540 00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:30,560 Speaker 1: something to do with it, but mainly vanadium. I think 541 00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:34,080 Speaker 1: as low as forty parts per million is actually effective. 542 00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:38,000 Speaker 1: And uh, that was so close to vibranium. I was like, 543 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:40,400 Speaker 1: I got really excited and I was like, oh, man, 544 00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:46,320 Speaker 1: is it vibranium. Of course that's not real really, Yeah, 545 00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:48,560 Speaker 1: you're not into the marble at the m c U, 546 00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:53,640 Speaker 1: are you. Okay, what's it from? Vibranium is the fictional 547 00:31:54,240 --> 00:32:00,400 Speaker 1: alloy in uh Waconda, Okay make their weapons out of that. Yeah, 548 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:04,440 Speaker 1: and that's what Cap Captain America shield is made from. Vibranium. 549 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:09,400 Speaker 1: Did he get that from Wakonda? He got the vibranium 550 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:13,840 Speaker 1: from Waconda. Oh that's neat. Yeah, I like it. You know, 551 00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:16,840 Speaker 1: I've noticed here there um in the Marvel universe. Sometimes 552 00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:20,720 Speaker 1: it almost seems like there's like crossovers between characters. That's 553 00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:22,840 Speaker 1: a great example of it. Yeah, it's almost like they 554 00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:27,160 Speaker 1: had it all plotted out. Uh, well, it's funny. Another 555 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:30,920 Speaker 1: marvel Um shout that there's this company in Sweden making 556 00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:33,800 Speaker 1: this new Damascus steel and they give it all these like, 557 00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:38,200 Speaker 1: you know, sort of Viking names. One it's called thor one, 558 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:43,080 Speaker 1: it's called Loki, it's called fern eating goat peek. But 559 00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:45,960 Speaker 1: they're just you know, they're trying to to increase sales 560 00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:48,080 Speaker 1: by naming it something super cool. Yeah, and they make 561 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:51,680 Speaker 1: fake Damascus steel. It's like stainless steel with the pattern 562 00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:56,680 Speaker 1: blown onto it. Yeah, basically using powder. This is this 563 00:32:56,920 --> 00:33:00,720 Speaker 1: is they figured out finally true Damascus steel, which is 564 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:04,200 Speaker 1: just absolutely wonderful. And it's it's that little bit of 565 00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:09,080 Speaker 1: now I can't remember, it's vanadium, right. Those are carbide 566 00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:13,920 Speaker 1: forming um elements, So it is the carbides. You do 567 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:17,080 Speaker 1: have to start off with ultra high carbon steel. And 568 00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:23,240 Speaker 1: apparently the ancient Indian um uh smith's created that alloy 569 00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:25,680 Speaker 1: by putting a little bit of charcoal in there. Maybe 570 00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:27,680 Speaker 1: a little bit would in with the iron so it 571 00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:30,040 Speaker 1: would absorb a lot of carbon from it. It just 572 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:33,000 Speaker 1: so happened that the iron ore that they were starting 573 00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:36,200 Speaker 1: off with had some vanadium in it, and that is 574 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:40,360 Speaker 1: ultimately what created that amazing watermark pattern, but also gave 575 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:45,640 Speaker 1: it its strength and survivability in battle. And I'm hoping 576 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:51,480 Speaker 1: someone out there makes uh Damascus steel daggers and send 577 00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:54,520 Speaker 1: us one. Oh that'd be neat. I want to Damascus 578 00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:57,800 Speaker 1: steel dagger. Somebody I can't remember who it was. Remember 579 00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:01,040 Speaker 1: they sent us knives. I still have my Filet knife, 580 00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:05,560 Speaker 1: the chefs knife. Those are gorgeous, amazing. Thank you again. 581 00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:07,720 Speaker 1: I cannot remember your name as years ago, but thanks 582 00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:10,920 Speaker 1: many years ago. Uh you got anything else? I got 583 00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:14,400 Speaker 1: nothing else? And I'm still seeing that we're we recorded 584 00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:18,840 Speaker 1: this episode successfully that eventually yeah, uh well, if you 585 00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:21,200 Speaker 1: want to know more about Damascus Steel, go to your 586 00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:23,800 Speaker 1: local gas station. They probably have something that looks like it. 587 00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:27,000 Speaker 1: It's probably not real, probably not, but you can look 588 00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:28,839 Speaker 1: at it and say, oh, that's what they're talking about. 589 00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:31,239 Speaker 1: I got it. And since I said I got it, 590 00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:36,080 Speaker 1: it's time for listener mail. All right, I'm gonna call this. 591 00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:39,640 Speaker 1: Uh this is the most recent email in my in box. 592 00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:44,080 Speaker 1: Hey guys, I'm writing to tell you about numerical palindromes. 593 00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:47,640 Speaker 1: You dismissed them as being quite unexceptional, and while I 594 00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:50,480 Speaker 1: agree that alphabetic palindromes are much more complicated and difficult 595 00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:53,440 Speaker 1: that to tell you. I'm obsessed with palindromes on the 596 00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:56,360 Speaker 1: odometer of my car. Okay, I can see how that 597 00:34:56,480 --> 00:35:00,680 Speaker 1: could be fun looking up recognizing a palindrome on your 598 00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:06,120 Speaker 1: old Yeah, I guess so, sure. Uh. I actually shared 599 00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:08,440 Speaker 1: two cars with my husband, and when I got in 600 00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:13,799 Speaker 1: and saw that the odometer read three three nine three four, 601 00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:17,640 Speaker 1: I actually gasped. Today I was able to resolve my 602 00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:21,360 Speaker 1: stress in that car, as you see. I would is 603 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:28,879 Speaker 1: that a palandrum though, oh, okay, just involved subtraction, because 604 00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:31,080 Speaker 1: if so, it's not a palant I think this person 605 00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:34,080 Speaker 1: just missed the palindrome because they share a car with 606 00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:38,279 Speaker 1: her husband. That makes sense. Today I was able to 607 00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:40,560 Speaker 1: resolve my stress in that car, as you can see. 608 00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:44,480 Speaker 1: Once again, I particularly enjoy ones with eight and zeros 609 00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:48,319 Speaker 1: or six is in opposition to nines like two, six, nine, 610 00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:53,600 Speaker 1: nine two or eight eight. Yeah, there's some satisfying about 611 00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:55,759 Speaker 1: seeing those numbers. I think it's nice and round plus 612 00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:59,919 Speaker 1: nine is unlucky in Japan, Oh it is? Yeah, okay, 613 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,160 Speaker 1: nine and four If you can imagine rotating it around 614 00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:05,879 Speaker 1: on its central number, there's always another cooler balanced number 615 00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:08,480 Speaker 1: on the horizon, even if it isn't a perfect palindrome. 616 00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:11,880 Speaker 1: I hope you have. I hope I have elevated numerical palindrumes. 617 00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:14,160 Speaker 1: A little bit for you, A little bit chow for now. 618 00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:19,320 Speaker 1: That is from Robin van Guessel in Victoria, British Columbia, Canada, 619 00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:22,680 Speaker 1: North America, beautiful town, Planet Earth. Thanks a lot, Robin. 620 00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:25,520 Speaker 1: Appreciate that, really appreciate the chow as well. That was 621 00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:29,280 Speaker 1: very nice. Nice ad could send off super eighties throwback 622 00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:32,200 Speaker 1: uh and uh. If you want to get in touch 623 00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:34,520 Speaker 1: with us like Robin did, you can send us an 624 00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:36,960 Speaker 1: email to wrap it up spanking on the bottom and 625 00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:40,120 Speaker 1: send it off to Stuff podcast at iHeart radio dot com. 626 00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:45,600 Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know is a production of I heart Radio. 627 00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:49,239 Speaker 1: For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, 628 00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:52,360 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.