WEBVTT - Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment 0:00:01.000 --> 0:00:03.480 Hi, everybody, it's your old pal Josh. For this week's 0:00:03.480 --> 0:00:06.920 Select I've chosen our episode from August of twenty twenty one, 0:00:07.360 --> 0:00:08.920 where we take a look at one of the most 0:00:09.000 --> 0:00:13.000 unethical social psychology experiments in the history of the field, 0:00:13.400 --> 0:00:16.680 where doctor Martin roe Keach assembled three men who each 0:00:16.720 --> 0:00:19.160 believed he was christ, put them in a room together 0:00:19.440 --> 0:00:22.000 and sat back and waited for the fireworks to start. 0:00:22.480 --> 0:00:24.680 And what came out of it is both an indictment 0:00:25.000 --> 0:00:29.560 and an inspiring affirmation of humanity. And on a personal note, 0:00:29.640 --> 0:00:32.000 I would like to wish my sweet sweet wife Yum, 0:00:32.320 --> 0:00:41.159 a very big happy birthday. Enjoy. Welcome to Stuff You 0:00:41.159 --> 0:00:50.879 Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio. Hey, and welcome to 0:00:50.920 --> 0:00:54.200 the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck and Dave is 0:00:54.240 --> 0:00:58.160 here with us today and we're all just quietly holding hands. 0:00:58.480 --> 0:01:00.760 Now we have to stop and I'm into the real 0:01:00.800 --> 0:01:04.640 world and start talking to you find people for this 0:01:04.720 --> 0:01:10.160 episode of Stuff You Should Know. My lip got caught 0:01:10.160 --> 0:01:12.160 in my tooth when I said you, and it came 0:01:12.200 --> 0:01:13.320 out a little weird. 0:01:14.080 --> 0:01:17.880 It's funny. My daughter finally lost her first tooth and 0:01:18.080 --> 0:01:19.960 it's you know, it's changing the way she talks. She's 0:01:20.000 --> 0:01:23.119 got a little funny little lisp and she's always tongue 0:01:23.120 --> 0:01:24.920 in on it, and I'm like, I'm gonna be there 0:01:24.920 --> 0:01:26.600 with you soon, you know, I gotta get this front 0:01:26.600 --> 0:01:31.680 one redone right. So yeah, I'm gonna wait till write 0:01:31.720 --> 0:01:35.000 before we have live shows so I could pull that 0:01:35.040 --> 0:01:35.800 front tooth again. 0:01:36.640 --> 0:01:40.200 Nice. That'll be a special treat for everybody, especially me. 0:01:41.360 --> 0:01:42.280 Oh, you were used to it. 0:01:43.040 --> 0:01:46.759 I really was. The worst was when when you had 0:01:46.760 --> 0:01:49.280 that little case that you would put it in and 0:01:49.440 --> 0:01:52.080 that they had events so the smell could waft out 0:01:52.120 --> 0:01:52.360 of it. 0:01:53.360 --> 0:01:56.559 Yeah. I gave up after the first one on wearing 0:01:56.560 --> 0:01:58.080 that thing. I was just like, who cares? 0:01:58.440 --> 0:02:00.920 Yeah, No, it's great. It was very liberating. 0:02:01.160 --> 0:02:03.600 It was, as is this podcast episode. 0:02:04.400 --> 0:02:06.440 I think this is going to be a good one 0:02:06.480 --> 0:02:08.520 because Chuck, I've been wanting to talk about this for 0:02:08.560 --> 0:02:10.640 a really long time. This is one of those things 0:02:10.639 --> 0:02:13.840 that you like hear about and you're like, wait what 0:02:13.919 --> 0:02:16.200 that can't be right, And then you read a little 0:02:16.200 --> 0:02:17.720 more about it, and a little more and it just 0:02:17.800 --> 0:02:21.480 keeps getting worse and worse. But yet it's it's just 0:02:21.600 --> 0:02:25.640 kind of one of the like a landmark study in 0:02:25.680 --> 0:02:28.320 the field of psychology that we're talking about today. 0:02:29.240 --> 0:02:34.880 Yeah, the Three Christs of Hypsilanti, and I study this. 0:02:35.000 --> 0:02:37.440 I remember this from studying it in psychology class in 0:02:37.480 --> 0:02:44.760 college and got kind of into it at the time, and. 0:02:43.240 --> 0:02:45.880 You started wearing like Three Christ t shirts and stuff. 0:02:46.880 --> 0:02:50.760 I followed them on tour. It was great. I don't 0:02:51.200 --> 0:02:52.960 for some reason, I thought I read the book. But 0:02:54.040 --> 0:02:55.360 I don't think I read the book. I think we 0:02:55.440 --> 0:02:59.080 just covered the book in college and in the psychology class, Like, 0:02:59.440 --> 0:03:01.400 I don't think they major read the whole book. We 0:03:01.520 --> 0:03:03.480 basically just kind of went over it. But I had 0:03:03.520 --> 0:03:07.079 been pretty fascinated for years, and you know, eventually, when 0:03:07.120 --> 0:03:10.080 Hollywood made a movie about it four years ago, I 0:03:10.200 --> 0:03:14.120 was excited and even paid to rent that thing. 0:03:14.960 --> 0:03:17.640 How'd that work out? Pretty good? 0:03:17.680 --> 0:03:21.000 I watched the first half hour and realize, oh man, 0:03:21.080 --> 0:03:25.040 they've just sort of disneyfied this thing and it's not good. Yeah, 0:03:25.080 --> 0:03:27.320 Ohtho or Budd Kevin Pollack isn't it And he's always great? 0:03:28.080 --> 0:03:32.600 Hey, that guy can steal a scene better than the Hamburglar. 0:03:33.880 --> 0:03:36.600 Yeah. The movie, just so everyone knows, is called The 0:03:36.600 --> 0:03:40.200 Three Christ of Hipsolani from John Abnett starring Richard gear 0:03:40.360 --> 0:03:44.280 as the name changed doctor and then the Three Christ 0:03:44.360 --> 0:03:48.360 in the movie you're portrayed by Peter Dinklage, one of 0:03:48.360 --> 0:03:50.720 my favorite actors, Walton Goggins. 0:03:51.200 --> 0:03:53.400 Yeah, he's great, man, I went back. I told you 0:03:53.480 --> 0:03:55.840 I was watching The Shield again. That guy was amazing 0:03:55.840 --> 0:03:56.080 in that. 0:03:56.320 --> 0:03:56.960 Oh was he in that? 0:03:57.800 --> 0:04:00.240 Yeah? Yeah, he played one of the main characters. 0:04:00.600 --> 0:04:03.640 He's just the best. And then, uh, what's a guy's 0:04:03.680 --> 0:04:07.000 named Bradley Whitford who's also great. Everyone in it is good. 0:04:07.040 --> 0:04:09.120 It just it's one of those movies that they I 0:04:09.160 --> 0:04:14.200 think just over sanitized and should have made a documentary instead. 0:04:15.720 --> 0:04:17.839 But they didn't, and that's okay, and we don't have 0:04:17.880 --> 0:04:20.080 to talk about that movie ever again now that we'll 0:04:20.160 --> 0:04:23.200 have instead, I think we should start by giving a 0:04:23.240 --> 0:04:26.240 little background on the guy whose idea the Three Christs 0:04:26.320 --> 0:04:30.120 of if Silani experiment was, and it was a researcher, 0:04:30.160 --> 0:04:35.760 a psychologist, a social psychologist, your favorite named Milton Rokeach. 0:04:37.240 --> 0:04:41.960 And Milton Rokeach had some ideas about what it was 0:04:42.040 --> 0:04:45.400 to make up an identity, what made up a person's 0:04:45.440 --> 0:04:48.760 sense of who they were. Yeah, and he basically had 0:04:48.800 --> 0:04:52.120 broken it out into beliefs, a series of different kinds 0:04:52.160 --> 0:04:54.120 of beliefs, which we'll kind of talk about here there 0:04:54.160 --> 0:04:57.920 a little more. But there's this anecdote that's frequently passed 0:04:57.920 --> 0:05:01.400 around that kind of like lays the early groundwork for 0:05:01.480 --> 0:05:06.040 this idea that someone's belief in who they are could 0:05:06.040 --> 0:05:09.080 conceivably be challenged. And it came one night when he 0:05:09.160 --> 0:05:11.640 was sitting around the dinner table with his wife and 0:05:11.680 --> 0:05:15.800 his two young daughters, and he accidentally, in like a 0:05:15.839 --> 0:05:18.560 moment of frustration telling them to settle down at dinner, 0:05:19.360 --> 0:05:23.279 called one another by their opposite names, and the girls 0:05:23.320 --> 0:05:24.840 just thought that was like the funniest thing that I 0:05:24.880 --> 0:05:25.360 ever heard. 0:05:25.560 --> 0:05:29.960 At first, Yes, was that is that my cue? 0:05:31.240 --> 0:05:33.280 Yeah? I even stuck my finger up like all right 0:05:33.360 --> 0:05:35.360 now you but you can't see it, can you? 0:05:35.400 --> 0:05:38.440 No, because we just listened to each other, Yeah, at first, 0:05:38.600 --> 0:05:40.599 and that was a little fun game. And then I 0:05:40.600 --> 0:05:43.560 think the five year old even said, you know, this 0:05:43.640 --> 0:05:46.880 is just a game, right dad, And Dad said no, 0:05:47.160 --> 0:05:50.960 it's real, and I hear him saying it in that voice, 0:05:51.080 --> 0:05:53.800 and you know, pretty soon they were begging for him 0:05:53.839 --> 0:05:56.880 to stop. And I can verify that this is a 0:05:56.920 --> 0:05:59.840 thing I've been I think as a parents, sometimes you'll 0:05:59.839 --> 0:06:02.000 call your kid by another name as a joke, like 0:06:03.200 --> 0:06:06.279 I know I've done it, like called my daughter my 0:06:06.400 --> 0:06:08.680 dog's name. If she's like she'll come into the room 0:06:08.680 --> 0:06:10.960 and like bark or something as a joke. So, oh, 0:06:11.000 --> 0:06:13.960 you're Nico, and she'll say, yeah, I'm Nico, and then 0:06:14.520 --> 0:06:16.599 for a few minutes later, I'm like, hey, come here, Nico, 0:06:16.800 --> 0:06:19.160 and then it's fun for about five minutes and then 0:06:19.160 --> 0:06:22.880 she's like no, like I am not. So there is 0:06:23.080 --> 0:06:27.440 very much a thing to a child's identity, especially from 0:06:27.480 --> 0:06:30.320 their parents, where they kind of get their identity and 0:06:30.360 --> 0:06:33.760 seek their identity. When that is challenged, it is very 0:06:33.839 --> 0:06:35.000 quickly kind of traumatic. 0:06:36.000 --> 0:06:37.960 Yeah, he learned a couple of things that One, you 0:06:38.000 --> 0:06:42.400 can very quickly challenge somebody, or you can very quickly 0:06:42.480 --> 0:06:45.640 push someone to a state of like trauma or anxiety 0:06:45.720 --> 0:06:49.200 or panic even Yeah, by just by simply challenging their 0:06:49.200 --> 0:06:51.680 identity by calling them the wrong name purposefully. 0:06:52.120 --> 0:06:53.000 That's right, Jerry. 0:06:53.640 --> 0:06:58.120 He also right, Yeah, I know, Jerry, call each other. 0:06:58.200 --> 0:07:00.120 Jerry, I think it would cancel e you there, out. 0:07:00.200 --> 0:07:03.680 Do it one more time and I will crumble, okay, Jachiffer, 0:07:03.960 --> 0:07:08.040 Oh god, but he also learned like, Okay, there's consequences 0:07:08.040 --> 0:07:10.000 to this. You can't take somebody with a with a 0:07:10.040 --> 0:07:13.640 well formed, well developed sense of identity and I guess 0:07:13.640 --> 0:07:17.240 a normal sense of identity and push push them to 0:07:17.280 --> 0:07:19.960 the edge, mess around with that sense of identity. There's 0:07:20.040 --> 0:07:25.080 there's harmful consequences to that. So he's starting to kind 0:07:25.120 --> 0:07:27.000 of explore this, and like I was saying, like he 0:07:27.040 --> 0:07:32.920 had broken everybody's belief system into a handful of different 0:07:32.960 --> 0:07:36.480 types of beliefs, and the belief that you are who 0:07:36.520 --> 0:07:39.320 you are, which is what we call our identity. He 0:07:39.440 --> 0:07:42.920 ascribed to primitive beliefs, which are just like basic truths 0:07:42.960 --> 0:07:47.200 in the same neighborhood as you know, I'm wearing a 0:07:47.320 --> 0:07:49.320 headphone on one ear and I have the other one 0:07:49.360 --> 0:07:51.760 behind my head. Right now, I have brown hair. My 0:07:51.880 --> 0:07:55.480 name is Josh, your chuck, Like, just basic truths of 0:07:55.560 --> 0:07:59.440 the universe that anyone you talk to is going to 0:07:59.560 --> 0:08:03.240 generally agree with. Right, That's where the personality comes from. 0:08:03.600 --> 0:08:07.720 Yeah, and that that is the very bedrock and foundation 0:08:08.160 --> 0:08:12.320 of how we think about ourselves. And he already saw 0:08:12.680 --> 0:08:15.840 messing with that can be bad, So he was like, hey, 0:08:16.200 --> 0:08:17.920 why not take it a step further. 0:08:19.120 --> 0:08:21.200 Right right, So what I was saying a minute ago 0:08:21.320 --> 0:08:23.920 with like how we saw that there's consequences to messing 0:08:23.960 --> 0:08:27.160 with saying person I just made air quotes. If you 0:08:27.160 --> 0:08:32.480 couldn't tell from my intonation messing with a sane person's identity, 0:08:32.720 --> 0:08:35.320 you can't really do that. But this is the mid 0:08:35.400 --> 0:08:38.880 century in America, and there's a whole group of people 0:08:38.920 --> 0:08:41.160 that you can do basically whatever you want to with 0:08:41.240 --> 0:08:44.640 as far as mental stuff goes. And that were people 0:08:44.679 --> 0:08:47.640 who are suffering from mental conditions who were locked up 0:08:47.960 --> 0:08:51.920 in state institutions at the time. And so Rokeach came 0:08:52.000 --> 0:08:54.439 up with this idea like, Okay, wait a minute, what 0:08:55.480 --> 0:08:59.400 if I got my hands on some mentally unstable people, 0:08:59.400 --> 0:09:04.520 some possibly diagnosed people, and messed with their sense of identity, 0:09:04.600 --> 0:09:08.320 took their delusion and challenged it. That could be okay, 0:09:08.400 --> 0:09:12.400 because hey, their lives are basically useless anyway, I'm paraphrasing 0:09:12.480 --> 0:09:16.199 Rokeich here, and if something does come of it, there's 0:09:16.240 --> 0:09:19.080 a good chance that it could be positive instead. So 0:09:19.840 --> 0:09:21.960 let me have it, let me add them basically. 0:09:22.240 --> 0:09:25.080 Yeah, there's a quote here from the book, And big 0:09:25.120 --> 0:09:27.120 thanks to Dave Ruse for putting this one together. I 0:09:27.120 --> 0:09:29.280 know this was a huge it's a tough one to wrangle, 0:09:29.360 --> 0:09:32.160 but he did a great job. Here's the quote from 0:09:32.160 --> 0:09:34.559 the book. Because it is not feasible to study such 0:09:34.600 --> 0:09:37.600 phenomena with normal people, he didn't even put in quotes. 0:09:38.640 --> 0:09:41.680 It seemed reasonable to focus on delusional systems of belief 0:09:41.679 --> 0:09:44.120 in the hope that in subjecting them to strain, that 0:09:44.200 --> 0:09:46.960 would be little to lose and hopefully a great deal 0:09:47.040 --> 0:09:50.040 to gain. And like, I read that sentence and I'm like, 0:09:51.000 --> 0:09:53.440 stop there, dude, right, yeah. 0:09:53.240 --> 0:09:57.440 That's like the perfect motto for the misguided intentions of 0:09:57.480 --> 0:09:58.040 this study. 0:09:58.200 --> 0:10:00.760 Yeah yeah, he is like, and die himself with that 0:10:00.800 --> 0:10:01.920 one quote. 0:10:01.920 --> 0:10:04.440 Exactly, just right out of the gate. And I read 0:10:04.440 --> 0:10:09.840 this commentary magazine article from nineteen sixty four by Oh 0:10:09.920 --> 0:10:11.480 I can't remember who it was. I don't have it 0:10:11.520 --> 0:10:13.600 pulled up, but he's a famous poet at the time, 0:10:14.120 --> 0:10:17.640 and he was basically saying, like, you know, surely ro Keach, 0:10:17.679 --> 0:10:20.920 the guy who's writing the book, well, it understands that 0:10:21.040 --> 0:10:23.600 roe Keach, the character this doctor is like out of 0:10:23.640 --> 0:10:26.880 his mind, and he likes he's like slowly realizing, oh wait, 0:10:26.920 --> 0:10:28.839 this guy, even the author of the book has no 0:10:29.000 --> 0:10:32.880 idea that the doctor character who's himself has has any 0:10:32.960 --> 0:10:35.840 idea just how unethical this is. And that's a that's 0:10:35.840 --> 0:10:38.240 a that's a great example of it, that demonstrates it 0:10:38.320 --> 0:10:39.160 right off the bat. 0:10:39.760 --> 0:10:42.240 Yeah, there's there's a I don't know if you listened 0:10:42.240 --> 0:10:43.960 to the Snap judgment on this, did you hear that? 0:10:45.280 --> 0:10:46.000 No? Huh? 0:10:46.040 --> 0:10:49.440 It was good step, you know, great podcast or public 0:10:49.520 --> 0:10:51.240 radio program turned podcast. 0:10:51.520 --> 0:10:56.240 Sure, I've heard public radio before. Yeah, I used to. 0:10:56.320 --> 0:10:57.560 I used to listen to a lot more of it. 0:10:58.600 --> 0:11:01.880 Same here, fresh Air. I always still love fresh Air. Yeah, 0:11:01.960 --> 0:11:04.240 but it's one of those things where I just bulk 0:11:04.320 --> 0:11:06.319 it up and then, like when I'm painting a room 0:11:06.360 --> 0:11:08.160 in our house, I listened to just fresh Air the 0:11:08.160 --> 0:11:09.400 whole time or something, you know what I mean? 0:11:09.480 --> 0:11:11.240 Yeah, what is dairy GROW's going to have us on? 0:11:11.360 --> 0:11:14.840 Do we need to get to twenty years? Would that 0:11:14.920 --> 0:11:15.360 do it? 0:11:15.480 --> 0:11:18.040 Yeah? I wouldn't even begin to bother her until we 0:11:18.120 --> 0:11:20.679 hit twenty years and then maybe yeah, and. 0:11:20.640 --> 0:11:24.720 Then we just start asking basically hi, Terry Hi. 0:11:24.920 --> 0:11:25.880 Yeah. 0:11:25.920 --> 0:11:29.440 So in that Snap judgment, they pointed out that he 0:11:30.760 --> 0:11:34.520 that Roki actually read a Harper's article about two women 0:11:34.600 --> 0:11:37.600 who believe they were the Virgin Mary, and that put 0:11:37.640 --> 0:11:39.760 an idea into his head. And I know that. In 0:11:39.800 --> 0:11:43.120 his book he also talked about being inspired a little 0:11:43.120 --> 0:11:45.319 bit by some stuff that Voltaire wrote about it. 0:11:45.400 --> 0:11:48.440 Right, Yeah, there was a man in the seventeenth century 0:11:48.480 --> 0:11:52.800 that Voltaire wrote about named Simone Morin who was deranged 0:11:53.160 --> 0:11:55.480 in the parlance at the time, and he thought that 0:11:55.600 --> 0:11:58.280 he was Christ. And so he was locked up in 0:11:58.360 --> 0:12:02.480 a mad house and he met in that place, in 0:12:02.559 --> 0:12:06.400 that institutional asylum, another man who thought he was Christ. 0:12:07.040 --> 0:12:11.520 And Simone Morin saw just how like crazy this guy 0:12:11.600 --> 0:12:14.000 seemed and was like, wait a minute, maybe I'm crazy. 0:12:14.480 --> 0:12:17.400 And in confronting this other guy who claimed to have 0:12:17.480 --> 0:12:21.920 the same identity, he regained his sanity to a certain extent, 0:12:21.920 --> 0:12:24.560 and unfortunately he relapsed and ended up being burned at 0:12:24.600 --> 0:12:28.800 the stake for heresy. But there was a moment there 0:12:29.000 --> 0:12:32.800 where he had kind of like been knocked out of 0:12:32.840 --> 0:12:37.000 his delusion. That's a huge deal. Like if you have 0:12:37.040 --> 0:12:42.199 schizophrenia or delusional beliefs, like if your mental disorder is 0:12:42.440 --> 0:12:45.319 to the degree where you hold delusions, and we should 0:12:45.320 --> 0:12:48.640 say a delusion is not like, you know, a made 0:12:48.720 --> 0:12:51.480 up belief where you know you made your belief up, 0:12:51.559 --> 0:12:54.040 like this is what you think is real. It is 0:12:54.160 --> 0:12:56.880 real to you, and you will defend it when it's challenged. 0:12:57.200 --> 0:13:00.440 So the idea that somebody who was delusional could be 0:13:00.559 --> 0:13:03.720 knocked out of their delusion by being confronted with somebody 0:13:03.720 --> 0:13:07.240 else who had the same delusion, that is groundbreaking. And 0:13:07.320 --> 0:13:09.880 I can see why roe Keach was like, there we go, 0:13:10.040 --> 0:13:13.559 that's it, there's my there's my methodology for this or 0:13:13.920 --> 0:13:15.200 for this this experiment. 0:13:15.600 --> 0:13:19.679 Yeah, and I'm sure he was, you know, he was 0:13:19.720 --> 0:13:21.640 turned on a little bit about the idea of three 0:13:21.760 --> 0:13:24.080 Christs or however many Christs he could find. 0:13:24.800 --> 0:13:25.800 He thought so hot. 0:13:26.000 --> 0:13:28.079 Well, I mean not even like that, you know what 0:13:28.160 --> 0:13:30.199 I mean though, But as a social psychologists he was 0:13:30.200 --> 0:13:32.600 probably like, you know, this would make for a pretty 0:13:34.520 --> 0:13:36.640 mind blowing experiment. 0:13:36.920 --> 0:13:39.080 Plus a great book title. It's one of the great 0:13:39.200 --> 0:13:41.199 understated book titles of all time. 0:13:41.679 --> 0:13:44.160 Yeah, it was not like the three Richard Nixon's of 0:13:44.240 --> 0:13:45.120 his Bilante. 0:13:45.800 --> 0:13:48.240 No, And I mean like Yipsilani is like this just 0:13:48.280 --> 0:13:51.920 this town outside of ann Arbor where you know, that's 0:13:51.920 --> 0:13:55.800 where one of the mental asylums were in Michigan at 0:13:55.800 --> 0:13:59.440 the time, And it's just like you know, it might 0:13:59.480 --> 0:14:03.760 as well be Walla, Walla or Lakawana, or it's just 0:14:03.880 --> 0:14:07.360 an unusual name in a town that doesn't really have 0:14:07.520 --> 0:14:09.560 much of a claim to anything, you know what I mean. 0:14:09.920 --> 0:14:12.400 Yeah, I'm sure all three of those towns are like, 0:14:13.000 --> 0:14:14.679 is he insulting all of us or none of us? 0:14:15.040 --> 0:14:17.880 No, No, it's not an insult. It's just it's just 0:14:19.360 --> 0:14:21.400 it's not like a hot happen in town and it's 0:14:21.400 --> 0:14:23.640 been like the Three Christs of New York that loses 0:14:23.680 --> 0:14:28.080 something or the Price of London. It's just a rather 0:14:28.280 --> 0:14:32.360 generally unremarkable place, guys, ipsil Any if you live there 0:14:32.400 --> 0:14:35.520 and you don't know that it's generally unremarkable, I'm sorry 0:14:35.600 --> 0:14:37.440 to be breaking this news to you. I don't mean 0:14:37.480 --> 0:14:39.960 it in an unkind way at all. 0:14:40.720 --> 0:14:43.400 I know you don't. And I think generally back then, 0:14:43.440 --> 0:14:45.640 that's where a lot of these institutions were because they 0:14:45.680 --> 0:14:49.520 needed like lots of land. And so they'll just leave 0:14:49.560 --> 0:14:52.400 it at that, and okay, maybe take a break. 0:14:53.240 --> 0:14:56.200 Okay to let everybody really stew on what I said 0:14:56.440 --> 0:14:56.880 that we'll. 0:14:56.760 --> 0:14:59.040 Take a break and we'll find out how he found 0:14:59.040 --> 0:15:29.040 his pacetions right after this, all right, So we're back. 0:15:29.800 --> 0:15:33.760 There were twenty five thousand total patients in the system 0:15:34.320 --> 0:15:38.600 in Michigan State, in Michigan State hospitals, and he went 0:15:38.640 --> 0:15:41.040 through all of these, you know, he sort of tried 0:15:41.080 --> 0:15:46.920 to cull them down to ideally to Christ figures. He'd 0:15:46.960 --> 0:15:49.280 found a man who thought he was Cinderella, he found 0:15:49.280 --> 0:15:53.080 a Missus God, and then about six people who thought 0:15:53.080 --> 0:15:57.960 they were Christ. And three of them were really into 0:15:58.000 --> 0:16:01.640 this idea and really consistent with belief that they were Jesus. 0:16:02.480 --> 0:16:04.680 And two of them happened to be at Hipsolani. So 0:16:05.200 --> 0:16:07.000 he was like, this is perfect, I'll just transfer the 0:16:07.040 --> 0:16:08.280 third in and we'll get going. 0:16:09.040 --> 0:16:11.800 Yeah. And so these guys being inmates of the state 0:16:12.280 --> 0:16:15.720 at a time where Ipsilani had like four thousand people, 0:16:16.480 --> 0:16:22.600 four thousand patients in just this one institutions. And if 0:16:22.640 --> 0:16:25.160 you were already like on the margins society and then 0:16:25.200 --> 0:16:27.480 moved into a place where you're with four thousand other 0:16:27.520 --> 0:16:29.880 people on the margins of society, it's a really good 0:16:29.920 --> 0:16:33.360 place to get lost, to not get any real help. 0:16:34.120 --> 0:16:38.160 And so one of the things that was part of 0:16:38.240 --> 0:16:44.760 this experiment design is to make participating in these discussions. 0:16:44.800 --> 0:16:47.960 This group of these three Christs as attractive to these 0:16:48.000 --> 0:16:50.840 three men as possible. So they were moved toward d 0:16:51.040 --> 0:16:53.880 twenty three. They were given their own private day room 0:16:54.000 --> 0:16:56.120 to eat in, to sleep or not sleeping, but to 0:16:56.160 --> 0:16:59.280 hang out in away from everybody else. They got some 0:16:59.440 --> 0:17:02.880 like place to stretch out and to have some company. 0:17:03.000 --> 0:17:06.080 We got a lot of attention, a lot of perks. 0:17:06.119 --> 0:17:11.680 Like basically their lives were changed in like incalculable ways 0:17:12.160 --> 0:17:14.840 by being part of the study. And so when they 0:17:14.840 --> 0:17:17.240 say like these were voluntary meetings and these men were 0:17:17.320 --> 0:17:20.880 voluntary members of the study, that's that's definitely true. There 0:17:20.920 --> 0:17:23.959 were voluntary participants, but the perks on offer were just 0:17:24.000 --> 0:17:27.080 so amazing they like you would you could not turn 0:17:27.160 --> 0:17:30.119 down you know, participating in some degree. 0:17:29.880 --> 0:17:35.000 Yeah, exactly. So they were willing participants insofar as yeah, 0:17:35.040 --> 0:17:39.159 they got these great perks worth running out. So he 0:17:39.320 --> 0:17:43.920 changed the names of the guys to protect their families 0:17:43.960 --> 0:17:46.760 and to protect them to some degree. But we should 0:17:46.800 --> 0:17:49.560 go over sort of the bios of the three men. 0:17:50.960 --> 0:17:52.640 Should we say who played them in the movies? Willout 0:17:52.640 --> 0:17:53.159 help people? 0:17:53.960 --> 0:17:58.280 I don't think so? Okay, I don't want to disparage 0:17:58.320 --> 0:17:59.680 those great actors' names. 0:17:59.720 --> 0:18:02.640 Again, Well, I mean the acting, they did a good job. 0:18:02.680 --> 0:18:06.480 It was just the material. They're all great actors, you know, Sure, yeah, 0:18:06.520 --> 0:18:08.560 I know, it's just when you write it. I don't 0:18:08.560 --> 0:18:10.680 want to call out the scriptwriter. But it wasn't there good. 0:18:13.680 --> 0:18:15.160 So let me ask you this, because I didn't see 0:18:15.160 --> 0:18:17.680 the movie. Was it like and I loved the fact 0:18:17.720 --> 0:18:20.520 that they made a movie about Freddy Mercury and the 0:18:20.560 --> 0:18:27.480 other members of Queen, But was it like in the 0:18:27.240 --> 0:18:32.080 in the movie what was the name of that movie. 0:18:30.600 --> 0:18:33.560 The Queen Movie? That's what I called it. 0:18:33.920 --> 0:18:36.920 Okay, well in but Heymian in Mars City, that's right. 0:18:37.000 --> 0:18:40.080 Do you remember like every time like Freddy Mercury did 0:18:40.160 --> 0:18:43.639 something brilliant, they would have Brian May, they'd do a 0:18:43.760 --> 0:18:46.840 pan in close up of him just looking like in 0:18:46.960 --> 0:18:50.600 awe and astonished. And that's maybe pushing it doing that 0:18:50.720 --> 0:18:52.919 once in a movie, but they did that every like 0:18:53.000 --> 0:18:56.080 fifteen or twenty minutes. Was it kind of like that 0:18:56.200 --> 0:18:56.960 same sentiment? 0:18:57.080 --> 0:18:58.840 It wasn't so much that, And again I only watched 0:18:58.880 --> 0:19:01.480 the first act before I realized it was just it 0:19:01.520 --> 0:19:05.680 was just really sanitized and like a feel good type 0:19:05.680 --> 0:19:06.040 of thing. 0:19:07.800 --> 0:19:12.040 Got so, yeah, so you're similar, yeah, right, exactly. This 0:19:12.119 --> 0:19:14.520 is not a this is not a feel good story. 0:19:14.560 --> 0:19:17.400 I wonder if it was performance art you accidentally stumbled upon. 0:19:17.680 --> 0:19:19.159 I mean, was there was some tough stuff in there. 0:19:19.200 --> 0:19:21.680 It's not like it was completely like, hey, this is great, 0:19:21.720 --> 0:19:25.120 but it kind of reeked of like an Awakenings kind 0:19:25.119 --> 0:19:25.400 of thing. 0:19:25.440 --> 0:19:27.800 And I liked Awakening I got it all right, all right, 0:19:27.920 --> 0:19:30.080 I liked Awakenings too, But it sounds like what you're 0:19:30.080 --> 0:19:32.680 describing is more along the line of the Greatest Showman, 0:19:32.960 --> 0:19:36.520 like that kind of sanitization. I didn't see that, Okay, 0:19:36.680 --> 0:19:40.480 did you no? But he did that episode just tearing 0:19:40.520 --> 0:19:42.600 it apart. Yeah, yeah, we hadn't even seen it. 0:19:42.600 --> 0:19:44.240 More comfortable doing that at times. 0:19:44.160 --> 0:19:45.280 Yeah, kind kind of. 0:19:45.560 --> 0:19:49.159 So. The first guy was in his late fifties, Joseph 0:19:49.200 --> 0:19:52.960 Kassel fifty eight. He had been in the hospital for 0:19:53.000 --> 0:19:56.720 about twenty years and was Canadian born and raised in Quebec. 0:19:57.240 --> 0:20:02.920 And he was named after his after Josephine, his female 0:20:02.920 --> 0:20:05.800 relative in his family named Joseph, And I think the 0:20:06.800 --> 0:20:10.320 big takeaway from his childhood was that it was not good. 0:20:11.040 --> 0:20:15.680 A very abusive father, very quick tempered man who abused 0:20:15.680 --> 0:20:18.920 his mom, and his mom actually died while giving birth 0:20:18.960 --> 0:20:21.800 to her ninth kid, and so he had a rough 0:20:21.840 --> 0:20:23.080 go of it from the beginning. 0:20:23.800 --> 0:20:26.159 I think his name actually was Josephine as well, and 0:20:26.200 --> 0:20:30.359 he went by Joseph. So he wanted to be a writer. 0:20:30.760 --> 0:20:32.439 I think, did you say he was fifty eight at 0:20:32.440 --> 0:20:38.280 the time, Yeah, okay, and he did not really take 0:20:38.359 --> 0:20:42.520 to working outside of the house. He and his wife 0:20:43.960 --> 0:20:47.440 did not have a very good relationship. Necessarily, he didn't 0:20:47.440 --> 0:20:50.320 want kids, she did. They ended up having three daughters, 0:20:50.359 --> 0:20:53.560 and he later on came to believe that they were 0:20:53.760 --> 0:20:57.440 not his children after all, and that may have been correct. 0:20:58.200 --> 0:20:59.840 But then things started to take kind of a turn 0:20:59.880 --> 0:21:03.679 for the worse, and that he started to become really paranoid. 0:21:04.000 --> 0:21:07.000 He started to accuse people of poisoning his food. He 0:21:07.080 --> 0:21:10.040 became a bit of a hoarder, especially with books, and 0:21:11.119 --> 0:21:13.320 probably the greatest crime a man could commit in the 0:21:13.320 --> 0:21:16.560 mid century America, he did not want to work right, 0:21:16.760 --> 0:21:20.359 So that was basically that he ended up getting sent 0:21:20.480 --> 0:21:26.280 to an asylum in Canada and then on to Ipsilany eventually, 0:21:26.760 --> 0:21:31.640 and he'd been been in Ipseilany for I think about 0:21:31.760 --> 0:21:33.600 twenty years, or at least in and out of the 0:21:33.600 --> 0:21:36.680 hospital system for about twenty years, and for about ten 0:21:36.720 --> 0:21:39.320 of those years he had been he had decided that 0:21:39.359 --> 0:21:42.520 he was God or Jesus Christ or both. 0:21:43.400 --> 0:21:46.240 Yeah, And by the time he got around to Rokeach, 0:21:46.320 --> 0:21:49.680 or Rokeach found him, he was in a pretty bad state. 0:21:49.760 --> 0:21:52.280