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Speaker 1: Hi, everybody, it's your old pal Josh. For this week's

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Speaker 1: Select I've chosen our episode from August of twenty twenty one,

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Speaker 1: where we take a look at one of the most

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Speaker 1: unethical social psychology experiments in the history of the field,

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Speaker 1: where doctor Martin roe Keach assembled three men who each

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Speaker 1: believed he was christ, put them in a room together

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Speaker 1: and sat back and waited for the fireworks to start.

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Speaker 1: And what came out of it is both an indictment

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Speaker 1: and an inspiring affirmation of humanity. And on a personal note,

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Speaker 1: I would like to wish my sweet sweet wife Yum,

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Speaker 1: a very big happy birthday. Enjoy. Welcome to Stuff You

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Speaker 1: Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio. Hey, and welcome to

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Speaker 1: the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck and Dave is

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Speaker 1: here with us today and we're all just quietly holding hands.

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Speaker 1: Now we have to stop and I'm into the real

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Speaker 1: world and start talking to you find people for this

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Speaker 1: episode of Stuff You Should Know. My lip got caught

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Speaker 1: in my tooth when I said you, and it came

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Speaker 1: out a little weird.

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Speaker 2: It's funny. My daughter finally lost her first tooth and

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Speaker 2: it's you know, it's changing the way she talks. She's

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Speaker 2: got a little funny little lisp and she's always tongue

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Speaker 2: in on it, and I'm like, I'm gonna be there

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Speaker 2: with you soon, you know, I gotta get this front

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Speaker 2: one redone right. So yeah, I'm gonna wait till write

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Speaker 2: before we have live shows so I could pull that

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Speaker 2: front tooth again.

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Speaker 1: Nice. That'll be a special treat for everybody, especially me.

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Speaker 2: Oh, you were used to it.

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Speaker 1: I really was. The worst was when when you had

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Speaker 1: that little case that you would put it in and

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Speaker 1: that they had events so the smell could waft out

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Speaker 1: of it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I gave up after the first one on wearing

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Speaker 2: that thing. I was just like, who cares?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, No, it's great. It was very liberating.

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Speaker 2: It was, as is this podcast episode.

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Speaker 1: I think this is going to be a good one

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Speaker 1: because Chuck, I've been wanting to talk about this for

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Speaker 1: a really long time. This is one of those things

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Speaker 1: that you like hear about and you're like, wait what

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Speaker 1: that can't be right, And then you read a little

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Speaker 1: more about it, and a little more and it just

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Speaker 1: keeps getting worse and worse. But yet it's it's just

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Speaker 1: kind of one of the like a landmark study in

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Speaker 1: the field of psychology that we're talking about today.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the Three Christs of Hypsilanti, and I study this.

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Speaker 2: I remember this from studying it in psychology class in

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Speaker 2: college and got kind of into it at the time, and.

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Speaker 1: You started wearing like Three Christ t shirts and stuff.

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Speaker 2: I followed them on tour. It was great. I don't

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Speaker 2: for some reason, I thought I read the book. But

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Speaker 2: I don't think I read the book. I think we

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Speaker 2: just covered the book in college and in the psychology class, Like,

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Speaker 2: I don't think they major read the whole book. We

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Speaker 2: basically just kind of went over it. But I had

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Speaker 2: been pretty fascinated for years, and you know, eventually, when

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Speaker 2: Hollywood made a movie about it four years ago, I

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Speaker 2: was excited and even paid to rent that thing.

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Speaker 1: How'd that work out? Pretty good?

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Speaker 2: I watched the first half hour and realize, oh man,

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Speaker 2: they've just sort of disneyfied this thing and it's not good. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: Ohtho or Budd Kevin Pollack isn't it And he's always great?

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Speaker 1: Hey, that guy can steal a scene better than the Hamburglar.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. The movie, just so everyone knows, is called The

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Speaker 2: Three Christ of Hipsolani from John Abnett starring Richard gear

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Speaker 2: as the name changed doctor and then the Three Christ

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Speaker 2: in the movie you're portrayed by Peter Dinklage, one of

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Speaker 2: my favorite actors, Walton Goggins.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he's great, man, I went back. I told you

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Speaker 1: I was watching The Shield again. That guy was amazing

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Speaker 1: in that.

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Speaker 2: Oh was he in that?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, he played one of the main characters.

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Speaker 2: He's just the best. And then, uh, what's a guy's

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Speaker 2: named Bradley Whitford who's also great. Everyone in it is good.

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Speaker 2: It just it's one of those movies that they I

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Speaker 2: think just over sanitized and should have made a documentary instead.

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Speaker 1: But they didn't, and that's okay, and we don't have

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Speaker 1: to talk about that movie ever again now that we'll

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Speaker 1: have instead, I think we should start by giving a

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Speaker 1: little background on the guy whose idea the Three Christs

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Speaker 1: of if Silani experiment was, and it was a researcher,

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Speaker 1: a psychologist, a social psychologist, your favorite named Milton Rokeach.

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Speaker 1: And Milton Rokeach had some ideas about what it was

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Speaker 1: to make up an identity, what made up a person's

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Speaker 1: sense of who they were. Yeah, and he basically had

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Speaker 1: broken it out into beliefs, a series of different kinds

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Speaker 1: of beliefs, which we'll kind of talk about here there

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Speaker 1: a little more. But there's this anecdote that's frequently passed

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Speaker 1: around that kind of like lays the early groundwork for

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Speaker 1: this idea that someone's belief in who they are could

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Speaker 1: conceivably be challenged. And it came one night when he

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Speaker 1: was sitting around the dinner table with his wife and

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Speaker 1: his two young daughters, and he accidentally, in like a

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Speaker 1: moment of frustration telling them to settle down at dinner,

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Speaker 1: called one another by their opposite names, and the girls

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Speaker 1: just thought that was like the funniest thing that I

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Speaker 1: ever heard.

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Speaker 2: At first, Yes, was that is that my cue?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? I even stuck my finger up like all right

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Speaker 1: now you but you can't see it, can you?

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Speaker 2: No, because we just listened to each other, Yeah, at first,

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Speaker 2: and that was a little fun game. And then I

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Speaker 2: think the five year old even said, you know, this

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Speaker 2: is just a game, right dad, And Dad said no,

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Speaker 2: it's real, and I hear him saying it in that voice,

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Speaker 2: and you know, pretty soon they were begging for him

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Speaker 2: to stop. And I can verify that this is a

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Speaker 2: thing I've been I think as a parents, sometimes you'll

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Speaker 2: call your kid by another name as a joke, like

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Speaker 2: I know I've done it, like called my daughter my

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Speaker 2: dog's name. If she's like she'll come into the room

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Speaker 2: and like bark or something as a joke. So, oh,

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Speaker 2: you're Nico, and she'll say, yeah, I'm Nico, and then

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Speaker 2: for a few minutes later, I'm like, hey, come here, Nico,

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Speaker 2: and then it's fun for about five minutes and then

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Speaker 2: she's like no, like I am not. So there is

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Speaker 2: very much a thing to a child's identity, especially from

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Speaker 2: their parents, where they kind of get their identity and

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Speaker 2: seek their identity. When that is challenged, it is very

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Speaker 2: quickly kind of traumatic.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he learned a couple of things that One, you

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Speaker 1: can very quickly challenge somebody, or you can very quickly

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Speaker 1: push someone to a state of like trauma or anxiety

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Speaker 1: or panic even Yeah, by just by simply challenging their

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Speaker 1: identity by calling them the wrong name purposefully.

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Speaker 2: That's right, Jerry.

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Speaker 1: He also right, Yeah, I know, Jerry, call each other.

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Speaker 2: Jerry, I think it would cancel e you there, out.

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Speaker 1: Do it one more time and I will crumble, okay, Jachiffer,

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Speaker 1: Oh god, but he also learned like, Okay, there's consequences

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Speaker 1: to this. You can't take somebody with a with a

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Speaker 1: well formed, well developed sense of identity and I guess

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Speaker 1: a normal sense of identity and push push them to

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Speaker 1: the edge, mess around with that sense of identity. There's

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Speaker 1: there's harmful consequences to that. So he's starting to kind

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Speaker 1: of explore this, and like I was saying, like he

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Speaker 1: had broken everybody's belief system into a handful of different

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Speaker 1: types of beliefs, and the belief that you are who

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Speaker 1: you are, which is what we call our identity. He

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Speaker 1: ascribed to primitive beliefs, which are just like basic truths

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Speaker 1: in the same neighborhood as you know, I'm wearing a

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Speaker 1: headphone on one ear and I have the other one

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Speaker 1: behind my head. Right now, I have brown hair. My

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Speaker 1: name is Josh, your chuck, Like, just basic truths of

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Speaker 1: the universe that anyone you talk to is going to

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Speaker 1: generally agree with. Right, That's where the personality comes from.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and that that is the very bedrock and foundation

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Speaker 2: of how we think about ourselves. And he already saw

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Speaker 2: messing with that can be bad, So he was like, hey,

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Speaker 2: why not take it a step further.

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Speaker 1: Right right, So what I was saying a minute ago

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Speaker 1: with like how we saw that there's consequences to messing

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Speaker 1: with saying person I just made air quotes. If you

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Speaker 1: couldn't tell from my intonation messing with a sane person's identity,

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Speaker 1: you can't really do that. But this is the mid

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Speaker 1: century in America, and there's a whole group of people

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Speaker 1: that you can do basically whatever you want to with

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Speaker 1: as far as mental stuff goes. And that were people

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Speaker 1: who are suffering from mental conditions who were locked up

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Speaker 1: in state institutions at the time. And so Rokeach came

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Speaker 1: up with this idea like, Okay, wait a minute, what

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Speaker 1: if I got my hands on some mentally unstable people,

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Speaker 1: some possibly diagnosed people, and messed with their sense of identity,

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Speaker 1: took their delusion and challenged it. That could be okay,

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Speaker 1: because hey, their lives are basically useless anyway, I'm paraphrasing

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Speaker 1: Rokeich here, and if something does come of it, there's

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Speaker 1: a good chance that it could be positive instead. So

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Speaker 1: let me have it, let me add them basically.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a quote here from the book, And big

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Speaker 2: thanks to Dave Ruse for putting this one together. I

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Speaker 2: know this was a huge it's a tough one to wrangle,

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Speaker 2: but he did a great job. Here's the quote from

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Speaker 2: the book. Because it is not feasible to study such

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Speaker 2: phenomena with normal people, he didn't even put in quotes.

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Speaker 2: It seemed reasonable to focus on delusional systems of belief

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Speaker 2: in the hope that in subjecting them to strain, that

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Speaker 2: would be little to lose and hopefully a great deal

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Speaker 2: to gain. And like, I read that sentence and I'm like,

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Speaker 2: stop there, dude, right, yeah.

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Speaker 1: That's like the perfect motto for the misguided intentions of

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Speaker 1: this study.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, he is like, and die himself with that

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Speaker 2: one quote.

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Speaker 1: Exactly, just right out of the gate. And I read

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Speaker 1: this commentary magazine article from nineteen sixty four by Oh

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Speaker 1: I can't remember who it was. I don't have it

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Speaker 1: pulled up, but he's a famous poet at the time,

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Speaker 1: and he was basically saying, like, you know, surely ro Keach,

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Speaker 1: the guy who's writing the book, well, it understands that

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Speaker 1: roe Keach, the character this doctor is like out of

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Speaker 1: his mind, and he likes he's like slowly realizing, oh wait,

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Speaker 1: this guy, even the author of the book has no

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Speaker 1: idea that the doctor character who's himself has has any

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Speaker 1: idea just how unethical this is. And that's a that's

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Speaker 1: a that's a great example of it, that demonstrates it

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Speaker 1: right off the bat.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's there's a I don't know if you listened

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Speaker 2: to the Snap judgment on this, did you hear that?

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Speaker 1: No? Huh?

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Speaker 2: It was good step, you know, great podcast or public

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Speaker 2: radio program turned podcast.

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Speaker 1: Sure, I've heard public radio before. Yeah, I used to.

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Speaker 2: I used to listen to a lot more of it.

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Speaker 1: Same here, fresh Air. I always still love fresh Air. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but it's one of those things where I just bulk

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Speaker 1: it up and then, like when I'm painting a room

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Speaker 1: in our house, I listened to just fresh Air the

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Speaker 1: whole time or something, you know what I mean?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, what is dairy GROW's going to have us on?

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Speaker 2: Do we need to get to twenty years? Would that

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Speaker 2: do it?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? I wouldn't even begin to bother her until we

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Speaker 1: hit twenty years and then maybe yeah, and.

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Speaker 2: Then we just start asking basically hi, Terry Hi.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So in that Snap judgment, they pointed out that he

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Speaker 2: that Roki actually read a Harper's article about two women

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Speaker 2: who believe they were the Virgin Mary, and that put

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Speaker 2: an idea into his head. And I know that. In

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Speaker 2: his book he also talked about being inspired a little

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Speaker 2: bit by some stuff that Voltaire wrote about it.

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Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, there was a man in the seventeenth century

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Speaker 1: that Voltaire wrote about named Simone Morin who was deranged

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Speaker 1: in the parlance at the time, and he thought that

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Speaker 1: he was Christ. And so he was locked up in

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Speaker 1: a mad house and he met in that place, in

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Speaker 1: that institutional asylum, another man who thought he was Christ.

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Speaker 1: And Simone Morin saw just how like crazy this guy

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Speaker 1: seemed and was like, wait a minute, maybe I'm crazy.

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Speaker 1: And in confronting this other guy who claimed to have

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Speaker 1: the same identity, he regained his sanity to a certain extent,

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Speaker 1: and unfortunately he relapsed and ended up being burned at

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Speaker 1: the stake for heresy. But there was a moment there

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Speaker 1: where he had kind of like been knocked out of

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Speaker 1: his delusion. That's a huge deal. Like if you have

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Speaker 1: schizophrenia or delusional beliefs, like if your mental disorder is

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Speaker 1: to the degree where you hold delusions, and we should

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Speaker 1: say a delusion is not like, you know, a made

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Speaker 1: up belief where you know you made your belief up,

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Speaker 1: like this is what you think is real. It is

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Speaker 1: real to you, and you will defend it when it's challenged.

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Speaker 1: So the idea that somebody who was delusional could be

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Speaker 1: knocked out of their delusion by being confronted with somebody

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Speaker 1: else who had the same delusion, that is groundbreaking. And

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Speaker 1: I can see why roe Keach was like, there we go,

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Speaker 1: that's it, there's my there's my methodology for this or

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Speaker 1: for this this experiment.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'm sure he was, you know, he was

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Speaker 2: turned on a little bit about the idea of three

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Speaker 2: Christs or however many Christs he could find.

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Speaker 1: He thought so hot.

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean not even like that, you know what

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Speaker 2: I mean though, But as a social psychologists he was

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Speaker 2: probably like, you know, this would make for a pretty

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Speaker 2: mind blowing experiment.

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Speaker 1: Plus a great book title. It's one of the great

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Speaker 1: understated book titles of all time.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it was not like the three Richard Nixon's of

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Speaker 2: his Bilante.

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Speaker 1: No, And I mean like Yipsilani is like this just

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Speaker 1: this town outside of ann Arbor where you know, that's

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Speaker 1: where one of the mental asylums were in Michigan at

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Speaker 1: the time, And it's just like you know, it might

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Speaker 1: as well be Walla, Walla or Lakawana, or it's just

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Speaker 1: an unusual name in a town that doesn't really have

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Speaker 1: much of a claim to anything, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sure all three of those towns are like,

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Speaker 2: is he insulting all of us or none of us?

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Speaker 1: No, No, it's not an insult. It's just it's just

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Speaker 1: it's not like a hot happen in town and it's

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Speaker 1: been like the Three Christs of New York that loses

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Speaker 1: something or the Price of London. It's just a rather

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Speaker 1: generally unremarkable place, guys, ipsil Any if you live there

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Speaker 1: and you don't know that it's generally unremarkable, I'm sorry

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Speaker 1: to be breaking this news to you. I don't mean

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Speaker 1: it in an unkind way at all.

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Speaker 2: I know you don't. And I think generally back then,

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Speaker 2: that's where a lot of these institutions were because they

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Speaker 2: needed like lots of land. And so they'll just leave

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Speaker 2: it at that, and okay, maybe take a break.

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Speaker 1: Okay to let everybody really stew on what I said

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Speaker 1: that we'll.

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Speaker 2: Take a break and we'll find out how he found

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Speaker 2: his pacetions right after this, all right, So we're back.

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Speaker 2: There were twenty five thousand total patients in the system

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Speaker 2: in Michigan State, in Michigan State hospitals, and he went

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Speaker 2: through all of these, you know, he sort of tried

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Speaker 2: to cull them down to ideally to Christ figures. He'd

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Speaker 2: found a man who thought he was Cinderella, he found

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Speaker 2: a Missus God, and then about six people who thought

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Speaker 2: they were Christ. And three of them were really into

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Speaker 2: this idea and really consistent with belief that they were Jesus.

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Speaker 2: And two of them happened to be at Hipsolani. So

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Speaker 2: he was like, this is perfect, I'll just transfer the

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Speaker 2: third in and we'll get going.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And so these guys being inmates of the state

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Speaker 1: at a time where Ipsilani had like four thousand people,

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Speaker 1: four thousand patients in just this one institutions. And if

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Speaker 1: you were already like on the margins society and then

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Speaker 1: moved into a place where you're with four thousand other

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Speaker 1: people on the margins of society, it's a really good

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Speaker 1: place to get lost, to not get any real help.

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Speaker 1: And so one of the things that was part of

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Speaker 1: this experiment design is to make participating in these discussions.

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Speaker 1: This group of these three Christs as attractive to these

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Speaker 1: three men as possible. So they were moved toward d

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Speaker 1: twenty three. They were given their own private day room

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Speaker 1: to eat in, to sleep or not sleeping, but to

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Speaker 1: hang out in away from everybody else. They got some

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Speaker 1: like place to stretch out and to have some company.

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Speaker 1: We got a lot of attention, a lot of perks.

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Speaker 1: Like basically their lives were changed in like incalculable ways

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Speaker 1: by being part of the study. And so when they

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Speaker 1: say like these were voluntary meetings and these men were

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Speaker 1: voluntary members of the study, that's that's definitely true. There

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Speaker 1: were voluntary participants, but the perks on offer were just

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Speaker 1: so amazing they like you would you could not turn

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Speaker 1: down you know, participating in some degree.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. So they were willing participants insofar as yeah,

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Speaker 2: they got these great perks worth running out. So he

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Speaker 2: changed the names of the guys to protect their families

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Speaker 2: and to protect them to some degree. But we should

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Speaker 2: go over sort of the bios of the three men.

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Speaker 2: Should we say who played them in the movies? Willout

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Speaker 2: help people?

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Speaker 1: I don't think so? Okay, I don't want to disparage

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Speaker 1: those great actors' names.

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Speaker 2: Again, Well, I mean the acting, they did a good job.

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Speaker 2: It was just the material. They're all great actors, you know, Sure, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I know, it's just when you write it. I don't

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Speaker 2: want to call out the scriptwriter. But it wasn't there good.

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Speaker 1: So let me ask you this, because I didn't see

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Speaker 1: the movie. Was it like and I loved the fact

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Speaker 1: that they made a movie about Freddy Mercury and the

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Speaker 1: other members of Queen, But was it like in the

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Speaker 1: in the movie what was the name of that movie.

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Speaker 2: The Queen Movie? That's what I called it.

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Speaker 1: Okay, well in but Heymian in Mars City, that's right.

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Speaker 1: Do you remember like every time like Freddy Mercury did

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Speaker 1: something brilliant, they would have Brian May, they'd do a

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Speaker 1: pan in close up of him just looking like in

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Speaker 1: awe and astonished. And that's maybe pushing it doing that

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Speaker 1: once in a movie, but they did that every like

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Speaker 1: fifteen or twenty minutes. Was it kind of like that

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Speaker 1: same sentiment?

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Speaker 2: It wasn't so much that, And again I only watched

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Speaker 2: the first act before I realized it was just it

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Speaker 2: was just really sanitized and like a feel good type

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Speaker 2: of thing.

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Speaker 1: Got so, yeah, so you're similar, yeah, right, exactly. This

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Speaker 1: is not a this is not a feel good story.

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Speaker 1: I wonder if it was performance art you accidentally stumbled upon.

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Speaker 2: I mean, was there was some tough stuff in there.

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Speaker 2: It's not like it was completely like, hey, this is great,

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Speaker 2: but it kind of reeked of like an Awakenings kind

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Speaker 2: of thing.

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Speaker 1: And I liked Awakening I got it all right, all right,

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Speaker 1: I liked Awakenings too, But it sounds like what you're

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Speaker 1: describing is more along the line of the Greatest Showman,

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Speaker 1: like that kind of sanitization. I didn't see that, Okay,

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Speaker 1: did you no? But he did that episode just tearing

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Speaker 1: it apart. Yeah, yeah, we hadn't even seen it.

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Speaker 2: More comfortable doing that at times.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, kind kind of.

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Speaker 2: So. The first guy was in his late fifties, Joseph

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Speaker 2: Kassel fifty eight. He had been in the hospital for

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Speaker 2: about twenty years and was Canadian born and raised in Quebec.

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Speaker 2: And he was named after his after Josephine, his female

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Speaker 2: relative in his family named Joseph, And I think the

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Speaker 2: big takeaway from his childhood was that it was not good.

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Speaker 2: A very abusive father, very quick tempered man who abused

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Speaker 2: his mom, and his mom actually died while giving birth

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Speaker 2: to her ninth kid, and so he had a rough

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Speaker 2: go of it from the beginning.

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Speaker 1: I think his name actually was Josephine as well, and

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Speaker 1: he went by Joseph. So he wanted to be a writer.

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Speaker 1: I think, did you say he was fifty eight at

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Speaker 1: the time, Yeah, okay, and he did not really take

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Speaker 1: to working outside of the house. He and his wife

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Speaker 1: did not have a very good relationship. Necessarily, he didn't

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Speaker 1: want kids, she did. They ended up having three daughters,

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Speaker 1: and he later on came to believe that they were

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Speaker 1: not his children after all, and that may have been correct.

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Speaker 1: But then things started to take kind of a turn

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Speaker 1: for the worse, and that he started to become really paranoid.

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Speaker 1: He started to accuse people of poisoning his food. He

389
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Speaker 1: became a bit of a hoarder, especially with books, and

390
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Speaker 1: probably the greatest crime a man could commit in the

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Speaker 1: mid century America, he did not want to work right,

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Speaker 1: So that was basically that he ended up getting sent

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Speaker 1: to an asylum in Canada and then on to Ipsilany eventually,

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Speaker 1: and he'd been been in Ipseilany for I think about

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Speaker 1: twenty years, or at least in and out of the

396
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Speaker 1: hospital system for about twenty years, and for about ten

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Speaker 1: of those years he had been he had decided that

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Speaker 1: he was God or Jesus Christ or both.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And by the time he got around to Rokeach,

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Speaker 2: or Rokeach found him, he was in a pretty bad state.

401
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Speaker 2: After those twenty years, he had about half of his

402
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Speaker 2: teeth left in his mouth. He was still hoarding books,

403
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Speaker 2: carrying around books everywhere, and when, you know, when asked

404
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Speaker 2: who he was, he said his name was Joseph, and

405
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Speaker 2: he said that I am God, and I guess Rokeach said, well,

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Speaker 2: you'll do just.

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Speaker 1: Fine, very splendid. Yeah. So Joseph, despite you know, his

408
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Speaker 1: inability to take care of himself and you know the

409
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Speaker 1: fact that he hoarded and all of that, he was

410
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Speaker 1: a very sharp person. So yeah, remember remember to keep

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Speaker 1: that in mind. Like that he was. He was very

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Speaker 1: sharp and a good writer as well. Clyde and these

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Speaker 1: are these men's names were changed. Clyde Benson. He was seventy,

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Speaker 1: he'd been hospitalized for the last seventeen years.

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Speaker 2: He was in pretty rough shape.

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Speaker 1: He really was. And I wrote, Keatch definitely starts to

417
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Speaker 1: recognize that pretty quickly after meeting Clyde, and ends up

418
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Speaker 1: almost letting him just stay in the group even though

419
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Speaker 1: he's not really participating any longer. But Clyde was apparently

420
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Speaker 1: raised in an overprotected manner and didn't really learn how

421
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Speaker 1: to make his own decisions and kind of ended up

422
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Speaker 1: stunted as a result. Which you can make your way

423
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Speaker 1: through life like that if you if you want to.

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Speaker 1: But he ended up turning to alcohol and became a

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Speaker 1: really hardcore alcoholic to where it was starting to wreck

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Speaker 1: his life. And apparently that came into collision with a

427
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Speaker 1: diagnosis of paranoid schizophrenia at some point.

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Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, And you know, it seems like the drinking

429
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Speaker 2: was the anytime you have an undiagnosed condition like this

430
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Speaker 2: and you pour alcoholism on top of it or any

431
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Speaker 2: kind of you know, drug addiction, it's gonna it's just

432
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Speaker 2: gonna be even worse. And eventually he was arrested for

433
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Speaker 2: public drunkenness. It was a pretty violent arrest and in

434
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Speaker 2: jail he was violent, and he was saying he was

435
00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:57,199
Speaker 2: Jesus Christ, that he was God, and that he was

436
00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:01,479
Speaker 2: reborn through his first wife. Surely I believe she had

437
00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:04,399
Speaker 2: passed away, and he did get remarried, and it was

438
00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:07,200
Speaker 2: surely the queen of heaven. And at this point they

439
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:10,400
Speaker 2: committed him to a mental hospital when he was fifty three,

440
00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:15,280
Speaker 2: where he got that diagnosis, and he was the one

441
00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:20,119
Speaker 2: that was easily the most far gone and toughest to

442
00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:23,879
Speaker 2: reach and sort of walked around mumbling. He also didn't

443
00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:29,240
Speaker 2: have many, if any of his teeth, but occasionally would

444
00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:31,840
Speaker 2: like still have that violence in him where he would

445
00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:34,399
Speaker 2: have these sort of violent outbursts but then kind of

446
00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:35,200
Speaker 2: calm down again.

447
00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, And when he did, he was very direct and

448
00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:41,000
Speaker 1: to the point. And I don't think he was actually

449
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:42,360
Speaker 1: physically violent, was he.

450
00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:44,399
Speaker 2: I don't think so. I think it just could be

451
00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:45,879
Speaker 2: scary at times.

452
00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:48,160
Speaker 1: Right, So he would say things like I am him.

453
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:52,080
Speaker 1: See now understand that, Like that was the extent of

454
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:54,720
Speaker 1: how he would explain that he was God. He didn't

455
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:56,320
Speaker 1: need it to be challenged, and if you did try

456
00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:58,680
Speaker 1: to challenge it, he would just shut you down kind

457
00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:01,919
Speaker 1: of thing, in a very yeah, like you said, kind

458
00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:02,919
Speaker 1: of a scary way.

459
00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:07,119
Speaker 2: So Leon was perhaps one of the saddest of the

460
00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:10,560
Speaker 2: three cases, and that he was had only been hospitalized

461
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:13,480
Speaker 2: for about five years. He was younger, he was thirty

462
00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:18,000
Speaker 2: eight years old, and he was the snap judgment is

463
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:20,919
Speaker 2: great because they had his two initial graduate assistants on,

464
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:26,960
Speaker 2: Richard Bonnier and Ron Hoppey, so like real firsthand experience

465
00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:29,840
Speaker 2: on the podcast, and they were saying that he was

466
00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:33,000
Speaker 2: the one that broke their heart the most because he

467
00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:36,320
Speaker 2: was the one that most likely could have been rehabilitated,

468
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:40,760
Speaker 2: and it just tore them up that they and they

469
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:43,000
Speaker 2: liked him a lot. He was a real personable guy

470
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:46,439
Speaker 2: and it was very engaging with his stories and they

471
00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:48,840
Speaker 2: really thought that they could have helped him had it

472
00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:52,639
Speaker 2: not been you know, in part by what happened with Rokeach.

473
00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:55,320
Speaker 1: Which is sad because that means that Rokeach made things

474
00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:57,720
Speaker 1: much much worse. Yeah, these people, and that's something to

475
00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:00,120
Speaker 1: really understand. That there were three men who were living,

476
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:04,199
Speaker 1: you know, their delusional lives in this statemental hospital, but

477
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:08,639
Speaker 1: they were generally unmolested until they were dragged into this

478
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:12,159
Speaker 1: study and messed with like in ways that you just

479
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:14,560
Speaker 1: don't do to other people, you know, and that their

480
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:18,159
Speaker 1: lives probably were worse, far worse than they would have

481
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:19,840
Speaker 1: been had they never met Milton Roki.

482
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:25,440
Speaker 2: Yeah. So Leon's deal was his mother was almost certainly

483
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:30,320
Speaker 2: schizophrenic as well. And had delusions, religious delusions. So he

484
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:34,199
Speaker 2: was raised in a household with these with basically a

485
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:39,520
Speaker 2: religious fanatic, and that impacted him from the very beginning.

486
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:43,200
Speaker 2: Of course, he was ended up diagnosed with schizophrenia as well,

487
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:47,840
Speaker 2: but growing up, I mean in that kind of environment, definitely,

488
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:51,080
Speaker 2: I think led to the Christ thing for sure.

489
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:53,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, And he had like there was a time where

490
00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:55,680
Speaker 1: he was living a normal life. He served in World

491
00:26:55,720 --> 00:27:00,720
Speaker 1: War Two, he worked at different jobs back in Detroit,

492
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:03,600
Speaker 1: he tried to go to college. He was trying to

493
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:07,520
Speaker 1: make a life for himself, but he suffered from fatigue,

494
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:10,880
Speaker 1: which I looked up is apparently a really tough comorbidity

495
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:16,640
Speaker 1: with psychotic disorders, and it's like got a terrible positive

496
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:19,600
Speaker 1: feedback where you know, the more tired you get, the

497
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:22,960
Speaker 1: worshier disorder is, and the worship disorder is, the harder

498
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:25,400
Speaker 1: it can be to sleep, and it's just not good.

499
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 1: So he had that, and then he also started hearing

500
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:32,560
Speaker 1: voices himself that we're telling him that he was Jesus Christ,

501
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:35,520
Speaker 1: and that didn't really jibe very well with his mother's

502
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:39,439
Speaker 1: own religious fanaticism because he saw that she was, you know,

503
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:43,440
Speaker 1: worshiping these other what he considered idols, and he went

504
00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:48,600
Speaker 1: on a bit of a violent tear once, removing all

505
00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:50,959
Speaker 1: the pictures of the saints and breaking all of the

506
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:53,880
Speaker 1: figurines and all that stuff, and demanding that his mother

507
00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 1: worship him as Jesus Christ, and threatening that as she didn't,

508
00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:00,840
Speaker 1: he would strangle her. And so that was enough to

509
00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:02,840
Speaker 1: get him locked up for good. He'd already been locked

510
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:05,680
Speaker 1: up one time for a brief period, and then about

511
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:09,400
Speaker 1: six months after that he was locked up from then

512
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:12,160
Speaker 1: until the time that he met Milton roe Keach, right.

513
00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:13,560
Speaker 2: And that was Walton goggins.

514
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 1: Man.

515
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:15,880
Speaker 2: Sorry.

516
00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:19,879
Speaker 1: So he he went by not Leon, and again Leon

517
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:22,119
Speaker 1: was a fake name that ro Keach gave him for

518
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:27,000
Speaker 1: the book. But he went by doctor Domino Dominorum at

519
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:32,280
Speaker 1: rex reserum simplest Christianist, purist mentalist doctor, which is Latin

520
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:36,200
Speaker 1: for lord of lords, king of King's simple Christian boy psychiatrist.

521
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 1: But he asked everyone to call him Rex for short, and.

522
00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:41,800
Speaker 2: They said thanks sure.

523
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:44,480
Speaker 1: And he was he was, like you said, like the

524
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:47,640
Speaker 1: most probably the most personable. He liked Joseph. He was

525
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:52,040
Speaker 1: very sharp too, but also like from a very early

526
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:57,280
Speaker 1: stage he saw quite clearly what Roe Keach was trying

527
00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:00,800
Speaker 1: to do, and he thought that it was morally repugnant,

528
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:04,560
Speaker 1: that it was not a nice thing to do to somebody,

529
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:06,320
Speaker 1: that you shouldn't mess with people like that, and he

530
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:08,920
Speaker 1: said as much multiple times throughout the study.

531
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:12,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, so this is when he hires those two grad assistants,

532
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 2: is when he finds the guys, gets this experiment going

533
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:22,000
Speaker 2: in earnest and you know, his hypothesis was that if

534
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:26,040
Speaker 2: I can have these three men confront one another about

535
00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:30,280
Speaker 2: them being the real Christ, that it could rock them

536
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:34,640
Speaker 2: into what he saw as reality and get them out

537
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:39,000
Speaker 2: of these delusions. And that didn't happen. Well, it didn't

538
00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 2: happen at all through the experiment, But initially they what

539
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 2: they did was they really dug in, and they each

540
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:48,440
Speaker 2: had their own way of doing so, but they each

541
00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:51,280
Speaker 2: dug in and said no, no, no, I am the

542
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:53,720
Speaker 2: real Christ. And they each had different sort of methods

543
00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:57,640
Speaker 2: of dealing with the others, but none of them wavered initially.

544
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:02,360
Speaker 1: No. And it was really, really it was kind of

545
00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:06,880
Speaker 1: in and of itself, just that finding that not only

546
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:09,360
Speaker 1: did they not have their identity shattered, but they just

547
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:13,880
Speaker 1: rebuilt and reinforced their identities. However, they could find a

548
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:16,720
Speaker 1: way to do it to their own satisfaction. That's a

549
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,560
Speaker 1: pretty big psychological finding in and of itself, you know,

550
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:22,760
Speaker 1: although it doesn't seem worth putting these men through that

551
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:24,080
Speaker 1: just to find that out.

552
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 2: You know, Yeah, for sure, I think Joseph said. Joseph

553
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:33,240
Speaker 2: was more one to sort of laugh it off. He said,

554
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:37,280
Speaker 2: there's nothing wrong. Yesterday I knew I was what I am. Today,

555
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:39,640
Speaker 2: I am what I am. I'm not worried about losing

556
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:43,880
Speaker 2: my identity. And we also should point out that Joseph,

557
00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:46,160
Speaker 2: and this was portrayed in the movie too by Peter Dinklage.

558
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:49,680
Speaker 2: He was spoke with an English accent. He thought he

559
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:52,960
Speaker 2: was convinced himself that he was from England, that he

560
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:56,280
Speaker 2: was descendant of royalty, and that the hospital was an

561
00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:57,600
Speaker 2: English stronghold.

562
00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:00,440
Speaker 1: Don't think I didn't notice you just slipped Peter Inklige

563
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:00,800
Speaker 1: in there.

564
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:03,480
Speaker 2: I know that only leaves one more, so I don't

565
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:04,240
Speaker 2: need to do the third.

566
00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:09,880
Speaker 1: So one of the other things about Joseph was his

567
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:12,880
Speaker 1: interpretation of why they were there in this study. Why

568
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:15,000
Speaker 1: the three of these men had been brought together was

569
00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:17,200
Speaker 1: so that they could sort out with the other two

570
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:19,959
Speaker 1: that they weren't Christ, that he was the one who

571
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:22,360
Speaker 1: was actually Christ, so he could do his work here

572
00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:27,640
Speaker 1: on earth better without having these two basically harassing him

573
00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:31,720
Speaker 1: or whatever. So then Leon, like I was saying, Leon,

574
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:34,560
Speaker 1: was the one who kind of saw the most through

575
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:38,840
Speaker 1: ro Keach's saw ro Kech's intentions and saw that they

576
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:45,400
Speaker 1: were just wrong. And like Clyde, I think Clyde said

577
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:50,000
Speaker 1: that that they were a rerise, that's what he considered

578
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:54,360
Speaker 1: the other two, or a hick. Joseph said, you know,

579
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:56,440
Speaker 1: I am who I am, and also, by the way,

580
00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:58,280
Speaker 1: we all know that I'm really God. And the Leon

581
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:00,680
Speaker 1: he said that, he said the the other two were

582
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:04,920
Speaker 1: instrumental gods. They were hallowed out gods. They were possibly

583
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:09,000
Speaker 1: dead already, and machines were operating them and making them

584
00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:12,520
Speaker 1: say these things. But even in that like, he wasn't

585
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:16,320
Speaker 1: attacking them personally. It was what he felt forced to

586
00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:18,840
Speaker 1: explain his position, and so that's what he said his

587
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:22,520
Speaker 1: position was. But as he was saying this, he would

588
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:25,000
Speaker 1: turn to Joseph. He would turn to Clyde, and he

589
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:29,360
Speaker 1: would say, you know, I mean this, you know, respectfully,

590
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:32,240
Speaker 1: I don't mean to be to tear you down. Whatever

591
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:34,400
Speaker 1: your belief is your belief and I don't want it.

592
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 1: I'm not trying to take it from you. I have

593
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:40,160
Speaker 1: my beliefs and you have your beliefs, and that's good enough.

594
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:46,960
Speaker 1: And so through that kind of like truce that was

595
00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:50,080
Speaker 1: kind of established between these three men, they basically kept

596
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:52,760
Speaker 1: the researchers at bay. The researchers would try to come

597
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 1: in and bust things up and get them to like

598
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:57,960
Speaker 1: argue or you know, make them confront one another. But

599
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:01,720
Speaker 1: if when left alone, those three men just generally did

600
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:04,600
Speaker 1: not argue about who was God. They avoided the subject

601
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 1: altogether and just let the other ones be and just

602
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:11,280
Speaker 1: kind of entered this live and let live kind of position,

603
00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 1: which I think is pretty heartening, you know it is.

604
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:16,600
Speaker 2: And that was one of the things that came through

605
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:21,239
Speaker 2: on that snap judgment with the two research assistants was

606
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:24,560
Speaker 2: that their take was that these men were generally, like

607
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:28,600
Speaker 2: after the initial sort of denial stuff, that they were

608
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:31,320
Speaker 2: generally pretty respectful and wanted to give each other the

609
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:34,479
Speaker 2: space to believe that they were christ if they wanted to.

610
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:38,560
Speaker 2: And what that showed was empathy and that's something that

611
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:43,480
Speaker 2: none of them saw coming at this point. Rokeach is

612
00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 2: being kind of hassled by these two grad assistants saying, hey, listen, man,

613
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:52,080
Speaker 2: these guys are kind of okay with this, and you're

614
00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 2: taking this thing too far. And eventually he was he

615
00:33:55,880 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 2: ignored them basically, and eventually they quit before this phase starts.

616
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:04,320
Speaker 2: Oh okay, And because they didn't agree with what was

617
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 2: going on, because they saw these three guys that were

618
00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:10,000
Speaker 2: generally respectful for one another, they saw ro Kech would

619
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:12,680
Speaker 2: do things like a journalist wrote a story about them

620
00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:16,120
Speaker 2: at one point that was obviously not flattering at all

621
00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:19,560
Speaker 2: to the three Christs, and Rokeach read this aloud to

622
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:22,240
Speaker 2: them like he was just trying to push their buttons

623
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:25,400
Speaker 2: and initiate this conflict, and the two grat assistants eventually

624
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:26,279
Speaker 2: are like, we're out of here.

625
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:29,560
Speaker 1: Yeah. That story, in particular, it was about how ro

626
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:32,160
Speaker 1: Keach was treating three psychotic men who thought they were

627
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:36,440
Speaker 1: christ and to read that to them is it's really mean. Again.

628
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:39,000
Speaker 1: He was trying to see what would happen if they

629
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:43,040
Speaker 1: were confronted with their identities being considered delusional by other people,

630
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:47,120
Speaker 1: and Leon in particular didn't like that. He said that

631
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:50,600
Speaker 1: a doctor is or a person who's supposed to be

632
00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:53,280
Speaker 1: a doctor, is supposed to lift up, build up, guide,

633
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:57,160
Speaker 1: direct inspire. He said that what you've just done is deploring,

634
00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:00,360
Speaker 1: and roe Keach said, you know, deploring. I've try leveled

635
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:03,600
Speaker 1: seventy five miles in snow and storm to come see you.

636
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:05,800
Speaker 1: And Lee had said, yes, but what was your intention

637
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:09,240
Speaker 1: in coming to see me, sir? And so he didn't

638
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 1: put up with Roketch's bs at all, which is pretty cool,

639
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 1: you know, to hold delusions and to have your delusions

640
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:19,040
Speaker 1: attacked like that, and then to be able to push

641
00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:21,640
Speaker 1: back but also in still a respectful way. Is I

642
00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:24,240
Speaker 1: think Leon's one of these one of the great unsung

643
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:26,960
Speaker 1: heroes of twentieth century America.

644
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:30,160
Speaker 2: Totally. Should we take a break before phase two?

645
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:32,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, I say we take a break man, all right.

646
00:35:32,480 --> 00:36:02,759
Speaker 2: We'll be right back. So before stage two starts, when

647
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:06,440
Speaker 2: things get really unethical, well not before this was kind

648
00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:09,560
Speaker 2: of part of the unethical. The two grat assistant assistants

649
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:12,479
Speaker 2: had left, and he hires this new young pretty woman

650
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:16,280
Speaker 2: as a grad assistant and basically tells her to flirt

651
00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:19,439
Speaker 2: with Leon and to see if he can make her

652
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:22,360
Speaker 2: make him fall in love with her. And that's exactly

653
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:25,160
Speaker 2: what happened, and Leon fell in love with her and

654
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 2: was destroyed when he basically came to realize on his

655
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:30,439
Speaker 2: own that that was never gonna happen for him.

656
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:34,320
Speaker 1: Man, it's just brutal keeps getting better and better.

657
00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:34,800
Speaker 2: Yeah.

658
00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:37,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, when those when those grad assistants said you've gone

659
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:40,520
Speaker 1: too far, I think Rokeach probably said something along the

660
00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:43,480
Speaker 1: lines of too far. I haven't begun to go too far.

661
00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:46,960
Speaker 1: Richard gears to watch What's next? Yeah, but there was like.

662
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:50,240
Speaker 2: Upbeat music, Yeah, like Salisbury Hill.

663
00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:54,960
Speaker 1: Exactly. That is exactly what I was thinking of. Thank

664
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:56,479
Speaker 1: you for putting it into words, Chuck.

665
00:36:56,960 --> 00:36:58,319
Speaker 2: So what happened next?

666
00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:01,960
Speaker 1: So what happened next is as follows. They're Rokets basically

667
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:04,279
Speaker 1: saw like, these guys are not going for this. For this,

668
00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:07,239
Speaker 1: the level of prodding that I've been doing, I'm going

669
00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:09,480
Speaker 1: to really kind of turn up the heat. And he

670
00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:15,280
Speaker 1: wondered if you took the members people that were part

671
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:20,000
Speaker 1: of these patient's delusional belief systems and personified them, like

672
00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:22,920
Speaker 1: pretended you were them, say he started communicating with them

673
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:26,840
Speaker 1: through letters or whatever, Yeah, what would happen? Could you

674
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:30,560
Speaker 1: conceivably get these people to abandon their delusions under the

675
00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:33,560
Speaker 1: guidance of these authority figures that were actually part of

676
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:36,200
Speaker 1: their delusions. It's really kind of mind boggling when you

677
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:38,120
Speaker 1: lay it out in like a float chart like that.

678
00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:40,640
Speaker 2: You know, yeah, that this like just kept getting worse

679
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:44,600
Speaker 2: and worse. So he identified these authority figures in all

680
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:48,399
Speaker 2: three of them. I guess to his credit, he laid

681
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:52,400
Speaker 2: off of Clyde because, I mean, I don't know if

682
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:54,759
Speaker 2: it was so much empathy as it was, he knew

683
00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:56,399
Speaker 2: he wasn't getting very far with.

684
00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:58,760
Speaker 1: Clyde, or maybe he was scared of what would happen

685
00:37:58,760 --> 00:37:59,320
Speaker 1: if Clyde.

686
00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:02,840
Speaker 2: Maybe yeah, because Clyde was definitely could be a little scary.

687
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:05,360
Speaker 2: But so he laid off of Clyde. But he found

688
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:10,279
Speaker 2: that Joseph said that a superintendent of the hospital named

689
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:14,400
Speaker 2: doctor Yoder yod E r. Was his dad. And Leon

690
00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:17,560
Speaker 2: said that he had a wife. He had a couple.

691
00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:22,280
Speaker 2: His wife the Blessed Virgin Mary, who was an uncle

692
00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:27,360
Speaker 2: reincarnated as Michael, the archangel archangel arch angel.

693
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:29,040
Speaker 1: Those are two different. So he was married to the

694
00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:30,800
Speaker 1: Blessed Virgin Mary and had that uncle.

695
00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:32,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, he had those two.

696
00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:36,600
Speaker 1: But there was he wasn't married to his uncle. He

697
00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:41,160
Speaker 1: had another wife later on named Madam Yetti Woman after

698
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:44,080
Speaker 1: he stopped being married to the Blessed Virgin Mary because

699
00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:49,120
Speaker 1: his uncle, Michael the Archangel married Blessed the Blessed Virgin Mary.

700
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:52,200
Speaker 2: Right, it sounds a little confusing, but when you're dealing

701
00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:54,080
Speaker 2: with stuff like this, I think it just has to

702
00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:54,920
Speaker 2: be a little confusing.

703
00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:59,200
Speaker 1: Well, the upshot of it is Rokeach started posing as

704
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:05,080
Speaker 1: as Madame Yetti Woman and started a letter writing campaign

705
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:09,680
Speaker 1: as Madame Yetti Woman, basically reaching out to say, Hey, Leon,

706
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:12,920
Speaker 1: I just want to say hi, and I'm thinking of

707
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:16,920
Speaker 1: you and let's start talking. So there was correspondence that

708
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:24,920
Speaker 1: was established as as Leon's delusion like wife Madame Yetti Woman.

709
00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:28,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we should point out that he supposedly had

710
00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:31,120
Speaker 2: gotten not supposedly, I think he did get the hospital's

711
00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:35,320
Speaker 2: permission to sign off on this as long as he said, listen,

712
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:37,560
Speaker 2: it's all going to be positive stuff. I'm not going

713
00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:39,600
Speaker 2: to be writing them letters saying to go start a

714
00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:42,239
Speaker 2: fight or anything like that. So I'm gonna send them

715
00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:46,239
Speaker 2: positive message messages and I'm going to stop if this

716
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:48,920
Speaker 2: becomes upsetting to these guys. And so they said, sure, go.

717
00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:51,960
Speaker 1: Ahead, yeah, and so he did. He did go ahead

718
00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:55,720
Speaker 1: first with Leon, I believe, and by this time Leon

719
00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:58,080
Speaker 1: had One of the things that he had done to

720
00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:03,040
Speaker 1: transform his identity was to become doctor Righteous Ideal Dung

721
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:06,200
Speaker 1: or doctor ri I Dong. And apparently the head nurse

722
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:08,480
Speaker 1: asked him directly, like can I please not call you

723
00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:11,520
Speaker 1: doctor Dong? And he said, yes, you can call me Ri,

724
00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:15,160
Speaker 1: but everybody else called him doctor ri I Dong. And

725
00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:19,000
Speaker 1: he did this, Rokeach concluded, to basically make himself not

726
00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:24,200
Speaker 1: worthy of being harassed anymore. But he was still secretly god,

727
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:27,000
Speaker 1: like he knew he was God. He was just pretending

728
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:29,800
Speaker 1: to be something else. And during that period he became

729
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:33,200
Speaker 1: married to Madame Yetti woman. So ro Keech started addressing

730
00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:36,640
Speaker 1: letters is to doctor ri I Dong and basically saying,

731
00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:41,359
Speaker 1: you know, here's a dollar, why don't you go buy

732
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:43,759
Speaker 1: yourself something nice in the hospital store and then share

733
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:48,239
Speaker 1: the change with Clyde and Joseph and or. One of

734
00:40:48,239 --> 00:40:49,959
Speaker 1: the things that they would do is they would take

735
00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:53,040
Speaker 1: turns between the three patients. Is who was going to

736
00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:55,359
Speaker 1: lead the session that day. And one of the things

737
00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:57,160
Speaker 1: you did when you led the session was you chose

738
00:40:57,200 --> 00:41:00,200
Speaker 1: what song everybody sung at the beginning and at the

739
00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:03,440
Speaker 1: end of the session, which is adorable, and so Madame

740
00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:07,719
Speaker 1: Yetti Woman suggested that he choose Onward Christian Soldiers, and

741
00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:11,680
Speaker 1: he chose Onward Christian Soldiers, and so like to rokech

742
00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:15,839
Speaker 1: he's seeing like there's this there's like an actual influence

743
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:20,080
Speaker 1: that is being exerted by this delusional figure. And also

744
00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:23,280
Speaker 1: it demonstrates that that Leon is showing like he definitely

745
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:25,640
Speaker 1: believes Madame Yetti Woman's a person for sure.

746
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:30,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, And eventually what broke it was as posing as

747
00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:34,200
Speaker 2: Madame Yetti Woman asked Leon to stop using the name

748
00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:38,160
Speaker 2: doctor Dung. The name thing seems to have been a

749
00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:40,600
Speaker 2: sticking point with a lot of people. Or maybe he

750
00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:43,719
Speaker 2: just thought that that would since he held onto that

751
00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:45,839
Speaker 2: so strongly, that would have been like the toughest thing

752
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:46,520
Speaker 2: to make him do.

753
00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:47,960
Speaker 1: And.

754
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:51,399
Speaker 2: That was sort of it. He was asked about the letter,

755
00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:55,719
Speaker 2: and Leon doesn't really say anything about asking to be

756
00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:59,040
Speaker 2: to drop the name doctor Doung. He just starts talking

757
00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:02,040
Speaker 2: more and more about God being both male and female,

758
00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:05,319
Speaker 2: insane and insane and said I don't care for the

759
00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:08,040
Speaker 2: insanity of God, and then said I don't want any

760
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:10,080
Speaker 2: more letters and basically kind of shut it down.

761
00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:14,359
Speaker 1: And so with those with Leon's letters in particular, there

762
00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:16,600
Speaker 1: was a couple of like really sad things, like the

763
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:19,279
Speaker 1: whole thing was sad to begin with. But there's this

764
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:23,360
Speaker 1: passage in the book where Leon gets a letter and

765
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:27,480
Speaker 1: roe Keach realizes that he's holding back tears and he

766
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:30,279
Speaker 1: starts to ask him, like, why are you, like, you know,

767
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:32,560
Speaker 1: are you happy? He said, yes, I'm very happy. It's

768
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:35,080
Speaker 1: a very pleasant feeling to have someone think of you

769
00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:39,080
Speaker 1: like like he was. He was moved to tears by

770
00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:42,359
Speaker 1: the idea that Madame Yetti woman was writing to him

771
00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:44,920
Speaker 1: and talking about caring for him and sending him money

772
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:49,440
Speaker 1: to go buy himself things with. And rather than just

773
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:51,600
Speaker 1: say like, oh, we might want to back this off,

774
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:55,160
Speaker 1: ro Kech used it to step that up and arranged

775
00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:58,359
Speaker 1: for a meeting with Madame Yetti Woman. Yeah, but there

776
00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:01,080
Speaker 1: was no Madame Yetti woman who was supposed to show up.

777
00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:03,719
Speaker 1: He was just he was going to get stood up

778
00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:09,239
Speaker 1: from the outset. But still Leon went to go meet

779
00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:11,759
Speaker 1: Madame Yetti Woman and had his heart broken. I think

780
00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:15,080
Speaker 1: it was after that that he stopped responding to the letters.

781
00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:17,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, when he said I don't want

782
00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:19,719
Speaker 2: these letters anymore. I don't want to receive them. You

783
00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:22,200
Speaker 2: would think that that's when Rokeach would say, all right, well,

784
00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:25,560
Speaker 2: let's just stop this all together. But he didn't because

785
00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:30,359
Speaker 2: he remembered that Leon had another authority figure in his life,

786
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:36,600
Speaker 2: which was his uncle, George Bernard Brown aka the archangel Michael,

787
00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:40,080
Speaker 2: and so he said, hey, I'll have someone call and

788
00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:43,279
Speaker 2: pose as his uncle now. And this didn't work from

789
00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:46,920
Speaker 2: the beginning, Leon, I guess the voice was just so

790
00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:49,719
Speaker 2: far off, or maybe Leon was just really wise to

791
00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:52,759
Speaker 2: it at this point said you know, no, no, no,

792
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:56,239
Speaker 2: this isn't this is even close to the voice, goodbye,

793
00:43:56,680 --> 00:43:58,760
Speaker 2: and hung up. And then they asked him about the call,

794
00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:01,640
Speaker 2: and he said, I don't believe in mental torture, sir.

795
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:04,080
Speaker 2: So it seems like he was sort of onto him

796
00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:05,600
Speaker 2: at this point, or you know, it was on to

797
00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:08,320
Speaker 2: him from the beginning, but onto him about this ruse.

798
00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:11,120
Speaker 1: I don't think he was on to him from the beginning.

799
00:44:11,239 --> 00:44:13,480
Speaker 2: I think that he no, I mean from the beginning

800
00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:15,279
Speaker 2: of the experiments, he was wearing, Oh.

801
00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:17,040
Speaker 1: I gotcha, I see what you're saying. But yeah, but

802
00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:19,800
Speaker 1: it's really easy to forget because you're reading roe Keach's

803
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:23,640
Speaker 1: accounts that these men weren't in on the idea that

804
00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:26,400
Speaker 1: it was from roe Keach. They believed that these letters

805
00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:29,320
Speaker 1: were coming from sure their delusional figures.

806
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:31,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the whole point, which makes it.

807
00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:34,400
Speaker 1: Just even more gut wrenching when you stop and remember that,

808
00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:34,759
Speaker 1: you know.

809
00:44:35,080 --> 00:44:36,200
Speaker 2: Yeah.

810
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:39,279
Speaker 1: So then he says, okay, all right, Leon's done. I'm

811
00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:41,440
Speaker 1: done writing letters to him. Who can I write letters

812
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:43,200
Speaker 1: to next? And he moves on to Joseph.

813
00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:47,440
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, so this was the one where the superintendent,

814
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:53,160
Speaker 2: the fictional doctor Yoder, was the authority figure for Joseph,

815
00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:56,279
Speaker 2: who he saw as a father figure. And so of

816
00:44:56,320 --> 00:44:59,200
Speaker 2: course Rokeach is gonna play up this whole father figure

817
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:01,719
Speaker 2: thing in the letters, saying that he loved him like

818
00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:04,799
Speaker 2: his son. He just wanted the best things for him.

819
00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:08,080
Speaker 2: And if you remember from the original sort of quick bio,

820
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:13,440
Speaker 2: Joseph's father was awful and abusive, So he's really playing

821
00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:15,839
Speaker 2: into his deepest sort of insecurities here.

822
00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:18,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, he said, be assured that I will always love you,

823
00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:22,000
Speaker 1: just exactly like a father who deeply loves his own son.

824
00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:24,840
Speaker 2: It's really tough to even research this stuff.

825
00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:31,240
Speaker 1: Yeah. So so just like with Leon, through these letters,

826
00:45:31,239 --> 00:45:33,960
Speaker 1: as doctor Yoder, he tried to get Joseph to start

827
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:38,080
Speaker 1: doing stuff, innocuous stuff at first, like saying stop. He didn't,

828
00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:40,839
Speaker 1: he stopped saying that he was from England and he

829
00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:44,080
Speaker 1: was from Quebec, started going to church services, that kind

830
00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:46,880
Speaker 1: of stuff. So there was an influence on Joseph, just

831
00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:51,680
Speaker 1: like there was on Leon, using their delusional characters or

832
00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:56,160
Speaker 1: delusional friends, authority figures, whatever. And I think even doctor

833
00:45:56,239 --> 00:46:01,680
Speaker 1: Yoder prescribed for the fake Doctor Yoder prescribed placebo for

834
00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:05,439
Speaker 1: Joseph's stomach ailments. He had, like digestive problems or stomach hurt,

835
00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:09,040
Speaker 1: and these placebo pills just fixed him right up.

836
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:14,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, so the stomach pills placebo supposedly worked. And then

837
00:46:14,239 --> 00:46:16,400
Speaker 2: he said, all right, well that worked, so I'm going

838
00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:20,239
Speaker 2: to give you pills to basically cure your mind. And

839
00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:23,799
Speaker 2: if you want to fix fix yourself for good, take

840
00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:28,640
Speaker 2: these pills. Which is I mean, this is so far

841
00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:32,799
Speaker 2: off the charts of unethical, like I can't even describe

842
00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:35,840
Speaker 2: how far off the charts it is. And he said, basically,

843
00:46:36,239 --> 00:46:38,319
Speaker 2: I think he said he gave him an ultimatum. He

844
00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:40,480
Speaker 2: says I'm only going to continue to give these pills

845
00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:45,440
Speaker 2: that will supposedly make your mind right if you admit

846
00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:48,600
Speaker 2: that you're in a mental hospital. And it's not an

847
00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:52,880
Speaker 2: English stronghold. And Joseph finally said, like, sign something, and

848
00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:55,120
Speaker 2: Joseph said no, I'm not going to sign this, and

849
00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:58,319
Speaker 2: he cut off this placebo medication that he believed might

850
00:46:58,360 --> 00:47:01,560
Speaker 2: be fixing his brain. And it kind of petered out

851
00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:04,400
Speaker 2: after that, and it was just like, it's just brutal

852
00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:06,920
Speaker 2: to think about these guys going through this like hope

853
00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:08,640
Speaker 2: that they're getting better and it was all fake.

854
00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:14,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, he apparently stopped writing to doctor Yoder and moved

855
00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:17,520
Speaker 1: on to JFK, started writing letters to JFK asking to

856
00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:19,360
Speaker 1: be one of his speech writers, because remember he was

857
00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:22,640
Speaker 1: a writer as well, right, So ro Keech is like, okay,

858
00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:25,680
Speaker 1: all right, let's see what's next. Oh, nothing's next. This

859
00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:28,160
Speaker 1: is the end of the line. He finally realized, like, okay,

860
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:31,719
Speaker 1: this is not going anywhere. Not only had he not

861
00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:37,200
Speaker 1: at all moved Clyde's delusions or Joseph's delusions. The only

862
00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:40,759
Speaker 1: persons whose delusions had changed at all was Leon's, and

863
00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:43,960
Speaker 1: his had just gotten more complex and intricate, certainly not

864
00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:47,320
Speaker 1: any closer to reality. They got further away from reality

865
00:47:47,719 --> 00:47:53,880
Speaker 1: because of this influence from ro Kechen is his experiment,

866
00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:58,359
Speaker 1: and he has like a pretty rich little admission in

867
00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:01,680
Speaker 1: the book that he says that we do not know

868
00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:05,080
Speaker 1: to what extent our very presence, behavior and questions may

869
00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:09,439
Speaker 1: have influenced the results obtained, which is bizarre to say,

870
00:48:09,560 --> 00:48:13,759
Speaker 1: because the whole point of the experiment was to influence

871
00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:17,680
Speaker 1: these people through this experiment. So it's a really weird

872
00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:20,480
Speaker 1: thing that even put it in there from some of

873
00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:22,960
Speaker 1: the stuff that I've read kind of picking apart this

874
00:48:23,040 --> 00:48:25,800
Speaker 1: book at the end, it really just kind of peters

875
00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:28,480
Speaker 1: out and like he's just kind of slashing in the

876
00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:30,440
Speaker 1: air with his sword trying to figure out, you know,

877
00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:33,839
Speaker 1: what the point was of all this stuff, and even

878
00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:38,319
Speaker 1: without like a satisfying conclusion or end, and ended up

879
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:41,480
Speaker 1: getting published in nineteen sixty four and became like a

880
00:48:41,640 --> 00:48:45,000
Speaker 1: really big success in the field psychology, but also got

881
00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:48,120
Speaker 1: widely criticized right out of the gate because even though

882
00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:50,840
Speaker 1: this was mid century America and we're talking about mental

883
00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:54,400
Speaker 1: patients in mid century America who have very little rights

884
00:48:54,719 --> 00:48:58,359
Speaker 1: or were treated very poorly, like there was still like

885
00:48:58,400 --> 00:49:00,440
Speaker 1: a lot of people around, Really, you don't do this

886
00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:03,560
Speaker 1: to human beings. This is not okay, not everybody did,

887
00:49:03,600 --> 00:49:06,520
Speaker 1: but some, you know, some critics definitely came out immediately.

888
00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:11,480
Speaker 2: Yeah. It took Rokeich a long time, though, to really

889
00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:13,480
Speaker 2: kind of come to terms with what he had done,

890
00:49:13,719 --> 00:49:18,239
Speaker 2: and he eventually did though, about seventeen years later. They

891
00:49:18,280 --> 00:49:22,000
Speaker 2: reissued the book in nineteen eighty one, and he wrote

892
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:25,720
Speaker 2: a new ForWord. He admitted in interviews in other places

893
00:49:25,760 --> 00:49:31,480
Speaker 2: as well, that he was also, you know, innocent, suffering

894
00:49:31,520 --> 00:49:34,040
Speaker 2: from godlike delusions and that he was playing God with

895
00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:39,480
Speaker 2: these men and regretted it. He regretted publishing. He said,

896
00:49:39,680 --> 00:49:42,600
Speaker 2: I regret having written and published a study when I did.

897
00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:44,600
Speaker 2: I don't know if that means that he wishes he

898
00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:46,319
Speaker 2: could have reflected more on it or what.

899
00:49:46,560 --> 00:49:47,719
Speaker 1: But yeah, I don't know either.

900
00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:50,480
Speaker 2: He did sort of recant and say he didn't do

901
00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:53,480
Speaker 2: the right thing. It's worth pointing out that this was

902
00:49:54,960 --> 00:50:00,920
Speaker 2: six years into his suffering from spinal cants, so I

903
00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:03,440
Speaker 2: don't know if that had, you know, knowing the end

904
00:50:03,520 --> 00:50:05,279
Speaker 2: was near for him had something to do with his

905
00:50:06,280 --> 00:50:09,640
Speaker 2: sort of self reflection. But he eventually died in nineteen

906
00:50:09,680 --> 00:50:11,800
Speaker 2: eighty eight at the age of seventy after a thirteen

907
00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:17,759
Speaker 2: year battle with spinal cancer, and you know, left the

908
00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:22,319
Speaker 2: social psychology world sort of rocked. Like like I said,

909
00:50:22,360 --> 00:50:25,040
Speaker 2: I studied this in college, and it became sort of

910
00:50:25,080 --> 00:50:29,239
Speaker 2: like the Stanford prison experiment, right, it became worth studying,

911
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:32,560
Speaker 2: but not for the reasons that they initially launched the

912
00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:33,560
Speaker 2: study to begin with.

913
00:50:34,080 --> 00:50:36,360
Speaker 1: No, he finally figured out the point of the book,

914
00:50:36,360 --> 00:50:37,879
Speaker 1: and the point of the book where was for him

915
00:50:37,880 --> 00:50:40,280
Speaker 1: to figure out that it was unethical what he was doing,

916
00:50:40,320 --> 00:50:42,600
Speaker 1: and you finally come to terms with what he'd done

917
00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:44,680
Speaker 1: to these poor men, and that you have a right

918
00:50:44,760 --> 00:50:46,960
Speaker 1: to just be left alone and not have your identity

919
00:50:47,080 --> 00:50:49,719
Speaker 1: challenged no matter what you believe you are who you

920
00:50:49,800 --> 00:50:53,960
Speaker 1: believe you are. And so he actually changed his methods.

921
00:50:53,719 --> 00:50:59,120
Speaker 1: His general belief in the idea of belief systems remained

922
00:50:59,120 --> 00:51:03,439
Speaker 1: the same, but he changed his tactics in that he

923
00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:06,200
Speaker 1: got involved in self confrontation, where you try to present

924
00:51:06,280 --> 00:51:10,440
Speaker 1: people with you know, self examination where they would examine

925
00:51:10,480 --> 00:51:13,000
Speaker 1: what their values were, what their beliefs were, and then

926
00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:15,800
Speaker 1: they would kind of be challenged on that like, Okay,

927
00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:19,240
Speaker 1: you believe in freedom, you place a high value on freedom,

928
00:51:19,600 --> 00:51:23,560
Speaker 1: but you also rated equality pretty low. But isn't equality

929
00:51:23,719 --> 00:51:26,120
Speaker 1: freedom for everybody? So you care about your freedom but

930
00:51:26,160 --> 00:51:28,799
Speaker 1: not other people's freedom. How does that really jibe? And

931
00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:30,880
Speaker 1: then the hope was that they would go back and

932
00:51:30,880 --> 00:51:32,560
Speaker 1: self reflect and be like, no, I really do care

933
00:51:32,560 --> 00:51:34,520
Speaker 1: about freedom, I do care about other people. Maybe I

934
00:51:34,520 --> 00:51:37,760
Speaker 1: should care about more about equality and improve as a person.

935
00:51:37,800 --> 00:51:40,759
Speaker 1: And that's ultimately how he ended up making his name

936
00:51:40,840 --> 00:51:42,040
Speaker 1: starting in the seventies.

937
00:51:42,560 --> 00:51:44,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I gotta tell you, when you read some

938
00:51:44,960 --> 00:51:50,200
Speaker 2: of his regret about it, he says things like or

939
00:51:50,200 --> 00:51:53,480
Speaker 2: he said things like you know, and in the end,

940
00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:58,120
Speaker 2: someone was cured and it was me. It's it just

941
00:51:58,400 --> 00:52:00,960
Speaker 2: that all bothered me a little bit too. How he

942
00:52:00,960 --> 00:52:04,120
Speaker 2: he still made it about himself somehow, even though he

943
00:52:04,160 --> 00:52:06,880
Speaker 2: did say he regretted it and everything. I just I

944
00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:13,480
Speaker 2: never heard as much regret about these three men and

945
00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:17,200
Speaker 2: just and putting them in the positions of like they

946
00:52:17,200 --> 00:52:18,879
Speaker 2: were the ones who helped me out in the end.

947
00:52:18,920 --> 00:52:20,560
Speaker 2: It was just I didn't like that.

948
00:52:21,120 --> 00:52:23,399
Speaker 1: I know exactly what you mean. It just it's still

949
00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:25,800
Speaker 1: smacks of self involvement. And you get to see, Yeah,

950
00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:28,839
Speaker 1: and also like what happened to these men. After the

951
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:31,480
Speaker 1: experiment was done, they're just cast right back into the

952
00:52:31,520 --> 00:52:35,520
Speaker 1: general populations, right, like used clean nex basically to deal

953
00:52:35,600 --> 00:52:39,319
Speaker 1: with what they'd just been through. It's just it's just

954
00:52:39,440 --> 00:52:42,279
Speaker 1: rotten all around for sure. And at the very least

955
00:52:42,360 --> 00:52:47,000
Speaker 1: it does exist to make Milton Roekeach feel better. Right,

956
00:52:48,560 --> 00:52:49,839
Speaker 1: You got anything else? No?

957
00:52:49,920 --> 00:52:51,160
Speaker 2: I mean, if you want to see some of his

958
00:52:51,239 --> 00:52:53,040
Speaker 2: later work that you were talking about the value stuff,

959
00:52:53,040 --> 00:52:56,319
Speaker 2: there are all kinds of really wacky YouTube videos from

960
00:52:56,320 --> 00:52:57,400
Speaker 2: people about that stuff.

961
00:52:57,800 --> 00:53:00,799
Speaker 1: Nice And if you want to see the movie that

962
00:53:00,840 --> 00:53:06,000
Speaker 1: they remade about this, don't. Yeah, Well, since I said

963
00:53:06,040 --> 00:53:09,080
Speaker 1: don't see that movie, it's time, of course for listener

964
00:53:09,120 --> 00:53:09,920
Speaker 1: mail everybody.

965
00:53:12,320 --> 00:53:16,120
Speaker 2: I'm gonna call this a guy who has the same

966
00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:19,400
Speaker 2: step on a crack thing as I do. Okay, this

967
00:53:19,480 --> 00:53:22,799
Speaker 2: is from Jared Miller. Hey, guys, I gotta say, Chuck

968
00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:25,440
Speaker 2: is the only other person I've heard to express the

969
00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:27,320
Speaker 2: same compulsion that I have. If I step on a

970
00:53:27,360 --> 00:53:30,560
Speaker 2: surface that is different from the majority of where I'm walking,

971
00:53:30,560 --> 00:53:31,840
Speaker 2: I try to get my other foot to have the

972
00:53:31,840 --> 00:53:35,400
Speaker 2: same sensation. This can be the line between the sidewalk segments,

973
00:53:35,520 --> 00:53:39,920
Speaker 2: or a traction sticker, an unpaved patch, et cetera. I

974
00:53:39,920 --> 00:53:41,799
Speaker 2: gotta say, Jared, it's the same with me. It's not

975
00:53:41,880 --> 00:53:45,000
Speaker 2: just cracks, can be anything, sure, even which part of

976
00:53:45,040 --> 00:53:48,000
Speaker 2: the foot is affected. Same with me, Dude. If I

977
00:53:48,040 --> 00:53:49,560
Speaker 2: do it on my heel, I have to do the

978
00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:52,919
Speaker 2: next one with my heel. It's very interesting. I've even

979
00:53:52,920 --> 00:53:55,000
Speaker 2: found myself doing it with the colors of tiles on

980
00:53:55,040 --> 00:53:59,800
Speaker 2: a patterned floor. Same here for me. It's about symmetrical sensations.

981
00:54:00,280 --> 00:54:03,120
Speaker 2: I sometimes realize I'm doing it when I'm eating and

982
00:54:03,200 --> 00:54:05,799
Speaker 2: have equal chewing time on each side. I don't do that.

983
00:54:07,560 --> 00:54:09,720
Speaker 1: Once a chill like cherry, you're so weird.

984
00:54:09,920 --> 00:54:12,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're really out there. Once I became aware of

985
00:54:12,680 --> 00:54:15,600
Speaker 2: it at a fully conscious level, I also became self

986
00:54:15,640 --> 00:54:17,920
Speaker 2: conscious about it and tried different things to break myself

987
00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:21,480
Speaker 2: of the habit. At times, it's been an extreme, as

988
00:54:21,560 --> 00:54:24,879
Speaker 2: extreme as forcing myself to maintain an even gait no

989
00:54:24,920 --> 00:54:28,640
Speaker 2: matter what. Yeah, I've done that while consciously reminding myself

990
00:54:28,640 --> 00:54:33,000
Speaker 2: that sensations are temporary and that it will even even

991
00:54:33,040 --> 00:54:35,799
Speaker 2: out or go away, especially if I ignore it. Thanks

992
00:54:35,840 --> 00:54:37,800
Speaker 2: for all the hours of entertainment you were in early

993
00:54:37,880 --> 00:54:40,560
Speaker 2: discovery of mine in the podcast world back in two

994
00:54:40,560 --> 00:54:43,360
Speaker 2: thousand and nine, and almost none of the shows I

995
00:54:43,400 --> 00:54:47,920
Speaker 2: started listening to back then are still going. That's our mono, Jared,

996
00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:48,720
Speaker 2: just keep doing.

997
00:54:48,560 --> 00:54:51,600
Speaker 1: It no matter what. If everybody tells you to stop,

998
00:54:51,640 --> 00:54:52,799
Speaker 1: please God stop.

999
00:54:52,560 --> 00:54:53,080
Speaker 2: Don't quit.

1000
00:54:53,480 --> 00:54:54,880
Speaker 1: You just you don't listen.

1001
00:54:55,080 --> 00:54:57,800
Speaker 2: So that's Jared and Anaheim by way of Idaho.

1002
00:54:58,560 --> 00:55:00,680
Speaker 1: Way to go, Jared from all over the.

1003
00:55:00,600 --> 00:55:04,040
Speaker 2: Place or was it Iowa? I don't remember, Sorry Idaho,

1004
00:55:04,440 --> 00:55:07,080
Speaker 2: I know how. The worst thing to confuse apologize.

1005
00:55:08,600 --> 00:55:10,879
Speaker 1: So let's see. If you want to get in touch

1006
00:55:10,920 --> 00:55:15,840
Speaker 1: with this, like Jared did, please email us, won't you?

1007
00:55:15,840 --> 00:55:18,799
Speaker 1: You can send us an email to stuff podcast at

1008
00:55:18,840 --> 00:55:21,759
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio dot com.

1009
00:55:23,560 --> 00:55:26,440
Speaker 2: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For

1010
00:55:26,520 --> 00:55:30,680
Speaker 2: more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1011
00:55:30,800 --> 00:55:32,640
Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.