WEBVTT - #551 Lauren Bright Pacheco with Marvin Grimm Jr. 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:03.920 This episode of Wrongful Conviction contains discussion of sexual assault 0:00:04.040 --> 0:00:10.520 and suicidal ideation. Please listen with caution and care. On 0:00:10.600 --> 0:00:14.800 November twenty second, nineteen seventy five, a three year old 0:00:14.800 --> 0:00:19.360 boy was reported missing in Richmond, Virginia. A twenty year 0:00:19.360 --> 0:00:23.080 old neighbor named Marvin Grimm joined the search party, mentioning 0:00:23.160 --> 0:00:25.279 that he may have seen the boy while running an 0:00:25.360 --> 0:00:32.040 errand after the body was recovered, investigators question Marvin, threatening 0:00:32.080 --> 0:00:34.879 him with the death penalty until they got a statement 0:00:34.920 --> 0:00:39.200 that corroborated what they already believed that the boy had 0:00:39.320 --> 0:00:44.800 died by exphyxiation related to a sexual assault, and any 0:00:44.920 --> 0:00:50.240 evidence that arose to the contrary was summarily ignored. This 0:00:51.040 --> 0:00:59.280 is wrongful conviction. The Fox Foundation is proud to support 0:00:59.360 --> 0:01:03.600 this episode of wrongful Conviction and the work of After Innocence, 0:01:03.640 --> 0:01:07.000 a nonprofit that helps hundreds of people nationwide rebuild their 0:01:07.040 --> 0:01:12.040 lives after wrongful incarceration. Each year, innocent people are released 0:01:12.080 --> 0:01:15.440 after spending years behind bars for crimes they didn't commit. 0:01:15.840 --> 0:01:18.640 Nearly all of them leave prison with nothing more than 0:01:18.640 --> 0:01:21.720 the clothes on their backs, with no help or compensation 0:01:21.800 --> 0:01:24.480 from the state, as they face the steep challenges of 0:01:24.520 --> 0:01:29.520 rebuilding their lives after wrongful imprisonment. After Innocence is changing 0:01:29.560 --> 0:01:33.800 that After Innocence helps exoneries get and make good use 0:01:33.959 --> 0:01:38.240 of essential services like health care, dental care, mental health support, 0:01:38.360 --> 0:01:43.160 legal aid, financial counseling, and more. Since twenty sixteen, they've 0:01:43.200 --> 0:01:47.200 brought that help to more than eight hundred exoneries across 0:01:47.240 --> 0:01:50.960 forty six states, working tirelessly to ensure that no one 0:01:51.040 --> 0:01:55.680 released after wrongful incarceration is left behind. Learn more at 0:01:55.840 --> 0:02:00.000 after dashinnocence dot org and join after Innocence to set 0:02:00.000 --> 0:02:13.520 support exoneries as they rebuild their lives. I'm Lauren Bright Pacheco. 0:02:14.000 --> 0:02:17.640 Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction, where we have a Virginia 0:02:17.720 --> 0:02:20.400 case related to the subject of a twenty twenty three 0:02:20.520 --> 0:02:25.000 podcast called Admissible. They covered twelve wrongful convictions related to 0:02:25.240 --> 0:02:29.680 one Virginia forensic examiner named Mary Jane Burton, some of 0:02:29.680 --> 0:02:33.800 which have been covered here, Thomas Hainsworth, Marvin Anderson, and 0:02:33.880 --> 0:02:36.040 the list is longer than twelve. 0:02:36.240 --> 0:02:39.000 Well now several on the list. I knew Julius Ruffin, 0:02:39.080 --> 0:02:41.200 I used to play ball with him, and I can't 0:02:41.200 --> 0:02:43.720 think of the other ones I only knew if Thomas Haynesworth. 0:02:43.800 --> 0:02:45.880 I met him at the AG's office when I was 0:02:45.880 --> 0:02:48.920 brought in after right after my exoneration, and he was 0:02:48.960 --> 0:02:51.400 working in the Attorney General's office. 0:02:51.560 --> 0:02:55.240 That is our guest of honor, Marvin Grimm Junior, welcome 0:02:55.960 --> 0:02:58.440 and to help tell his story. We have this attorney 0:02:58.440 --> 0:03:01.559 from Arnold and Porter Angelique celebrity. 0:03:02.080 --> 0:03:03.440 Thank you for having us. 0:03:03.720 --> 0:03:08.280 So, Marvin, you're from Richmond, Virginia and had three sisters. 0:03:08.680 --> 0:03:11.720 Where did you fall in the sibling lineup? I was 0:03:11.800 --> 0:03:17.000 top dog, so three little sisters, all right, I thought, 0:03:17.600 --> 0:03:20.240 So tell me a little bit about yourself as a kid. 0:03:20.400 --> 0:03:23.120 I played hardball as a kid. I played up about 0:03:23.120 --> 0:03:25.600 the fifteen year old. Because we were moving around, I 0:03:25.680 --> 0:03:30.079 couldn't get it to stay situated. Because my father, he 0:03:30.120 --> 0:03:36.640 was a salesman. We had time in Richmond, Georgia, Iowa, Minnesota, Pennsylvania, Ohio, 0:03:36.880 --> 0:03:40.720 back to Richmond, being up to Mason City, Iowa, and Moorhead, Minnesota. 0:03:40.800 --> 0:03:42.840 That's where mom and Dad divorced. And when we came 0:03:42.880 --> 0:03:44.680 back to Richmond, and I felt that I was going 0:03:44.760 --> 0:03:46.839 to be a drain on the resources. So I said, 0:03:46.920 --> 0:03:48.600 I'll just go in the Navy. I'm old enough to 0:03:48.600 --> 0:03:50.000 do it. So that's what I did. 0:03:50.320 --> 0:03:53.000 And this was in nineteen seventy three, when the Vietnam 0:03:53.040 --> 0:03:54.320 War was still ongoing. 0:03:55.000 --> 0:03:58.200 Yeah, so I'm going in boot camp getting ready to graduate. Says, hey, 0:03:58.240 --> 0:04:00.680 we need some people go to Japan. I said, cool, 0:04:00.680 --> 0:04:03.080 I'll go to Japan because I did not want to 0:04:03.120 --> 0:04:05.680 wind up in Vietnam. Well, I didn't know at the 0:04:05.720 --> 0:04:08.920 time when I volunteered for Japan it's just across the 0:04:08.960 --> 0:04:13.600 bay from Vietnam. Well, I was impulsive. Our first cruise, 0:04:13.600 --> 0:04:16.040 we went to the Philippines and while we were in dock, 0:04:16.360 --> 0:04:18.720 there was an explosion in one of the engine rooms 0:04:18.920 --> 0:04:21.039 and a couple of the guys that were working in 0:04:21.080 --> 0:04:25.200 the electricians got burned alive. And I've witnessed it all 0:04:25.240 --> 0:04:27.840 because I passed right through it. I don't care how 0:04:28.000 --> 0:04:31.440 strong of a person you are. You see somebody on fire, 0:04:31.880 --> 0:04:33.000 it can rattle your brain. 0:04:33.640 --> 0:04:38.719 I can't even imagine that. You started having panic attacks 0:04:38.720 --> 0:04:44.600 and anxiety. So you were honorably discharged because the anxiety 0:04:44.640 --> 0:04:47.279 and the panic attacks were getting worse. 0:04:48.360 --> 0:04:49.919 That's what the psychologist said. 0:04:50.480 --> 0:04:53.840 So Marvin returned from the Navy, got married to his 0:04:53.880 --> 0:04:56.600 wife Jan and with a baby on the way. Marvin 0:04:56.640 --> 0:04:59.680 picked up a second job doing maintenance work at their 0:04:59.680 --> 0:05:03.800 apartm and complex, and they lived across the hall from 0:05:03.839 --> 0:05:07.400 the victim and his family, with whom Marvin had two 0:05:07.560 --> 0:05:10.960 trivial run ins, like accidentally running over a few small 0:05:11.000 --> 0:05:14.479 toys with the lawnmower. The family also had a dog. 0:05:15.240 --> 0:05:17.240 I was going back here with the ride lawnmower, and 0:05:17.279 --> 0:05:19.159 I knocked on the door and asked him to take 0:05:19.200 --> 0:05:21.560 the dog in because I didn't want to run him 0:05:21.560 --> 0:05:24.760 over the lawnmower. So that night and I came back, 0:05:24.920 --> 0:05:27.040 the stepfather was standing there on the car and he 0:05:27.839 --> 0:05:30.280 threatened me behind, saying I'm going to run his dog over. 0:05:30.320 --> 0:05:32.240 And I said I adn't saying running your dog over. 0:05:33.120 --> 0:05:36.440 I walked away from him and kept going. The running 0:05:36.440 --> 0:05:39.200 over the toys was an accident by the lawnmower too. 0:05:39.960 --> 0:05:45.040 Later on, this interaction became an alleged motive in the 0:05:45.160 --> 0:05:48.080 death of the neighbor's three year old son, who was 0:05:48.120 --> 0:05:51.840 reported missing by the mother on November twenty second, nineteen 0:05:51.880 --> 0:05:52.560 seventy five. 0:05:53.240 --> 0:05:56.560 She calls the Richmond Police and she says that she 0:05:56.760 --> 0:06:01.120 last saw her boy at about one point thirty headed 0:06:01.160 --> 0:06:04.520 into a wooded area behind the apartment complex. She caused 0:06:04.520 --> 0:06:08.120 the cops to report him missing at two forty pm. 0:06:08.720 --> 0:06:11.200 The officers respond pretty quickly and they show up at 0:06:11.240 --> 0:06:14.600 the apartment complex at two forty five pm. They don't 0:06:14.600 --> 0:06:17.760 know the exact location, so they just randomly happened to 0:06:17.839 --> 0:06:20.600 knock on Marvin's door, who lived in the same apartment 0:06:20.680 --> 0:06:22.240 complex as the boys family. 0:06:22.680 --> 0:06:25.000 So I'm watching the game when I get a knock 0:06:25.040 --> 0:06:27.680 on the door. This guy doesn't identify himself. He just 0:06:27.720 --> 0:06:30.080 asked me who in the building has children? I said, well, 0:06:30.080 --> 0:06:33.360 the only ones across the hall. After the game, that's 0:06:33.400 --> 0:06:36.400 when I go out straight down the road to the highway. 0:06:36.920 --> 0:06:39.800 I thought I saw the victim and his a dog 0:06:40.080 --> 0:06:42.839 jump out from behind a car. I didn't think of anything. 0:06:43.240 --> 0:06:46.120 So when I come back, Channel twelve is set up 0:06:46.160 --> 0:06:48.240 and there's people running around everywhere. So I go over 0:06:48.279 --> 0:06:50.240 and see what's going on. They told me the victim 0:06:50.320 --> 0:06:52.479 was missing. I said, well, I just thought I saw 0:06:52.520 --> 0:06:55.320 him such and such. Well take us there and then 0:06:55.560 --> 0:06:58.320 we searched all around the area, and then I was 0:06:58.320 --> 0:07:00.640 going down to see my wife at night hospital. So 0:07:00.839 --> 0:07:02.680 we did it for about an hour. Then they thanked 0:07:02.680 --> 0:07:04.560 me and I went home got ready to go down 0:07:04.560 --> 0:07:05.359 to the hospital. 0:07:05.720 --> 0:07:10.440 Marvin's pregnant wife, jan was dealing with preclampsia, sometimes known 0:07:10.520 --> 0:07:13.600 back then as toxemia, so she was being monitored at 0:07:13.640 --> 0:07:19.080 the hospital. Meanwhile, a massive search operation was underway, which 0:07:19.200 --> 0:07:22.440 ended four days later when the little boy was found 0:07:22.760 --> 0:07:26.560 lying face up, fully clothed in shallow water in the 0:07:26.640 --> 0:07:30.320 James River, about nine miles from the apartment complex. 0:07:31.080 --> 0:07:35.160 The medical examiner saw what she described to be a 0:07:35.200 --> 0:07:38.560 white gelatinate material at the back of the boy's throat, 0:07:39.000 --> 0:07:41.360 so she swabs the boy's throat, puts it under a 0:07:41.400 --> 0:07:45.680 microscope and reports seeing sperm and so she ultimately concludes 0:07:45.720 --> 0:07:49.560 that the boy asphyxiated, with the implication being that he 0:07:49.680 --> 0:07:52.800 was orally sodomized and choked to death during the assault. 0:07:53.440 --> 0:07:57.520 Detectives were under a lot of pressure to solve this crime. 0:07:57.720 --> 0:08:00.080 I know the father of the boy had provided a 0:08:00.280 --> 0:08:04.120 list of individuals upon the request of the officers, but 0:08:04.240 --> 0:08:07.960 when they went weeks without any suspects or leads, they 0:08:08.080 --> 0:08:10.640 zeroed in on Marvin because he was a neighbor to 0:08:10.720 --> 0:08:12.000 the boys family. 0:08:12.080 --> 0:08:16.160 And Marvin had mentioned to the initial responders that he 0:08:16.320 --> 0:08:19.080 thought he had seen the boy while driving that afternoon. 0:08:19.400 --> 0:08:21.200 That and plus the even parents had told him that 0:08:21.200 --> 0:08:24.520 we'd had problems in the past. Here's the FBI knocking 0:08:24.600 --> 0:08:27.160 on my door. Write this statement saying you saw this, 0:08:27.320 --> 0:08:30.440 victims such and such, such and such, no problem. Then 0:08:30.480 --> 0:08:33.000 all of a sudden, the Richmond Police Department kept coming 0:08:33.040 --> 0:08:35.880 over to my house talking to me, and they kept 0:08:35.920 --> 0:08:38.679 trying to get me to say something about somebody else, 0:08:39.120 --> 0:08:41.080 and I said, I don't know anything about this. I 0:08:41.120 --> 0:08:43.160 can't say who did what or did not do what. 0:08:44.440 --> 0:08:48.480 Unwilling to create a different target, Marvin was asked to 0:08:48.520 --> 0:08:49.520 take a polygraph. 0:08:50.200 --> 0:08:53.480 I had nothing to hide, but that polygraph was strange 0:08:53.480 --> 0:08:56.480 because they gave me asked me about five questions. Then 0:08:56.520 --> 0:08:59.400 he just started strutting the thing off, jerking things around 0:08:59.400 --> 0:09:01.880 and said, man, you're lying. The police come running in 0:09:01.920 --> 0:09:03.720 and start screaming at me. So I took it as 0:09:03.760 --> 0:09:06.200 a setup, and that's when I figured out, hey, there 0:09:06.240 --> 0:09:07.640 after me, can. 0:09:07.520 --> 0:09:10.400 You also explain to me, just for somebody who doesn't 0:09:10.440 --> 0:09:14.559 really understand what it's like to deal with panic disorder, 0:09:15.200 --> 0:09:18.280 what goes through your body, like how your heart. 0:09:18.120 --> 0:09:22.520 Rate will increase, you will sweat, so you know, the 0:09:22.720 --> 0:09:25.680 polograph takes your breathing. It does your heart and everything. 0:09:25.880 --> 0:09:28.000 So if I got a racing heart and I'm breathing 0:09:28.040 --> 0:09:30.640 heavy and sweat, and They're going to think I'm lying 0:09:30.679 --> 0:09:34.280 about something. So that's when I told the police I 0:09:34.320 --> 0:09:37.960 have problems with anxiety depression and I forget things. The 0:09:38.080 --> 0:09:41.000 Navy they call them blackouts, because I call them blackouts. 0:09:41.760 --> 0:09:44.320 I don't know if I can explain that exactly I 0:09:44.360 --> 0:09:46.439 would be doing stuff. Then I come back. Oh man, 0:09:46.480 --> 0:09:49.280 I didn't know was that time like that? So that's 0:09:49.280 --> 0:09:51.520 when I told the police about it, and I guess 0:09:51.559 --> 0:09:52.880 that's when everything changed. 0:09:53.280 --> 0:09:59.400 However, Marvin's momentary alertness lapses, as well as police allegations 0:09:59.440 --> 0:10:02.679 of deceit fullness, were not enough to make an arrest. 0:10:03.160 --> 0:10:06.839 After all, our audience is quite familiar with the use 0:10:06.880 --> 0:10:11.200 of polygraphs as cudgeled to coerce false confessions, and it 0:10:11.240 --> 0:10:14.520 hadn't worked, so they took another stab a few days 0:10:14.600 --> 0:10:17.360 later when they picked up Marvin from work at around 0:10:17.440 --> 0:10:19.800 four forty pm for more questioning. 0:10:20.280 --> 0:10:23.480 Marvin had worked a nine hour shift and they proceeded 0:10:23.480 --> 0:10:27.559 to interrogate him for nearly ten hours without ever turning 0:10:27.640 --> 0:10:28.800 on the tape recorder. 0:10:29.160 --> 0:10:31.400 We was in a room about the size of your bathroom, 0:10:31.800 --> 0:10:34.440 four of them sitting around me. I was fenced in. 0:10:35.040 --> 0:10:37.760 All they said was, you know you're being questioned. You 0:10:37.760 --> 0:10:39.800 can have a lawyer if you wanted. I knew I 0:10:39.800 --> 0:10:41.720 hadn't done anything, so why do I need a lawyer. 0:10:42.200 --> 0:10:45.880 They started getting upset with me, getting loud, hollering at 0:10:46.000 --> 0:10:48.320 you don't tell us what happened. If we convict you, 0:10:48.360 --> 0:10:49.880 we're going to give you a death penalty and all 0:10:49.920 --> 0:10:53.319 that stuff like that. So I started having a panic 0:10:53.360 --> 0:10:56.120 attack at that time. So it was around eleven o'clock. 0:10:56.280 --> 0:10:58.160 They just finally said, man, I'm trying to get out 0:10:58.160 --> 0:11:00.280 of here. I want to get away from this. What 0:11:00.320 --> 0:11:01.160 do you want me to say? 0:11:01.600 --> 0:11:05.200 At this point, Marvin, who is twenty years old, he's young, 0:11:05.760 --> 0:11:08.559 He's been awake for nearly twenty four hours. 0:11:08.280 --> 0:11:12.160 And suffering with PTSD and anxiety. 0:11:11.600 --> 0:11:14.480 Attacks exactly, he just wants to go home. So he 0:11:14.600 --> 0:11:17.000 finally tells them what they want to hear. 0:11:17.400 --> 0:11:22.320 And not only that, but parents back details that only 0:11:22.440 --> 0:11:25.720 they knew at that point or thought they knew. 0:11:26.000 --> 0:11:29.840 If you listen to the confession, even if you read 0:11:29.880 --> 0:11:33.840 the transcript, there are several red flags that stand out 0:11:33.880 --> 0:11:37.280 that this is not a reliable confession. So, for example, 0:11:38.040 --> 0:11:41.880 Marvin is unable to supply any of the details, and 0:11:41.960 --> 0:11:44.880 so the officer has to supply the details of the act. 0:11:45.040 --> 0:11:48.160 They asked me, did you sexual assaultant? I'm like what 0:11:49.679 --> 0:11:51.840 that was? When I was stuttering, but la la la lah, 0:11:51.960 --> 0:11:54.160 and he said, you put his mouth over your privates. 0:11:54.720 --> 0:11:56.400 I didn't even know he was sex and exulted. 0:11:56.520 --> 0:12:00.920 To that moment, the officers ask Marvin what he did 0:12:00.960 --> 0:12:05.720 to the boy, and Marvin responds, I forced sexual assault. 0:12:06.880 --> 0:12:09.760 To me, that sounds like language that a detective would 0:12:09.880 --> 0:12:12.120 use rather than a twenty year old man. 0:12:12.280 --> 0:12:13.680 And by the way, I never took them to where 0:12:13.679 --> 0:12:15.480 the body was found. They played it up that I 0:12:15.559 --> 0:12:17.640 took them, but they really took. 0:12:17.440 --> 0:12:20.000 Me right after the interrogation. 0:12:19.800 --> 0:12:22.360 Right, this is two about two thirty in the morning. 0:12:22.800 --> 0:12:24.840 I've been up almost twenty four hours. 0:12:25.080 --> 0:12:28.360 And when do you realize that you've confessed to something 0:12:28.400 --> 0:12:28.920 you didn't do? 0:12:29.760 --> 0:12:31.839 The next day, when they pulled me in the rain me, 0:12:32.080 --> 0:12:33.840 I guess it was around six o'clock. They took me 0:12:33.880 --> 0:12:36.360 over to a courtroom in front of the magistrate and 0:12:36.400 --> 0:12:39.040 he told me I'm charged with murder and asked me 0:12:39.080 --> 0:12:43.320 in my financial situations before appointing me an attorney. My 0:12:43.440 --> 0:12:46.520 son was born ten days before I was arrested. I 0:12:46.559 --> 0:12:47.920 only knew him for ten days. 0:12:48.120 --> 0:12:51.640 How did you explain the fact that you had confessed 0:12:51.679 --> 0:12:54.480 to something that you didn't do to your family, to 0:12:54.520 --> 0:12:55.840 your wife. 0:12:56.440 --> 0:12:59.160 They visited me in the jail, I think the second 0:12:59.240 --> 0:13:00.760 day I was there. I told him I didn't have 0:13:00.800 --> 0:13:02.360 nothing to do with it, and I said, I don't 0:13:02.400 --> 0:13:05.319 understand how they can charge me. And then Jan spoke 0:13:05.400 --> 0:13:06.960 up and said, you know, they came through and took 0:13:06.960 --> 0:13:07.840 all their medication. 0:13:08.920 --> 0:13:12.480 So in Virginia, it's not enough to have a confession 0:13:12.520 --> 0:13:15.400 from somebody to achieve a conviction. You also have to 0:13:15.440 --> 0:13:19.120 have evidence that corroborates the confession. So after they got 0:13:19.200 --> 0:13:22.280 what they wanted from Marvin, they had to go execute 0:13:22.280 --> 0:13:24.640 a search board and then they collected the evidence that 0:13:24.720 --> 0:13:28.480 they would then use to corroborate the confession in the 0:13:28.520 --> 0:13:31.959 autopsy report. The toxicology report that came back showed high 0:13:32.080 --> 0:13:35.680 levels of alcohol and Cler's oxyzone, which is a prescription 0:13:35.800 --> 0:13:37.720 muscle relaxant in the boys' system. 0:13:38.240 --> 0:13:40.880 My wife had toxemia, but they took all of her 0:13:40.920 --> 0:13:43.120 medication at the hospital that gave her for that. 0:13:43.440 --> 0:13:45.560 Because they wanted to claim that. 0:13:45.720 --> 0:13:48.319 The drugs and the alcohol, which I had no idea 0:13:48.320 --> 0:13:49.440 what happened. 0:13:49.600 --> 0:13:53.120 Marvin never mentioned that in his confession. We think that 0:13:53.160 --> 0:13:56.079 the officers were trying to get that information out of 0:13:56.120 --> 0:13:58.040 him by asking, well, how did you get the boy 0:13:58.080 --> 0:14:01.120 to comply? But Marvin never makes any mention of the 0:14:01.200 --> 0:14:02.280 drugs or the alcohol. 0:14:02.720 --> 0:14:06.560 Remember, the victim's mother had reported that the last time 0:14:06.640 --> 0:14:10.280 she'd seen her son was around one thirty PM, and 0:14:10.360 --> 0:14:14.520 then first responders knocked on Marvin's door just seventy five 0:14:14.559 --> 0:14:17.920 minutes later, around two forty five PM. 0:14:18.320 --> 0:14:21.640 So we worked with a toxicologist to calculate how long 0:14:21.840 --> 0:14:24.880 it would have taken for the alcohol to reach the 0:14:24.960 --> 0:14:28.000 levels that it did in the boy's system, and a 0:14:28.120 --> 0:14:31.080 toxicologist puts that time period at ninety to one hundred 0:14:31.080 --> 0:14:33.880 and fifty minutes, which is well outside the seventy five 0:14:33.920 --> 0:14:36.360 minutes that Marvin would have had to commit all the 0:14:36.400 --> 0:14:38.600 acts that he states in his false confession. 0:14:39.040 --> 0:14:42.120 The police search turned up a few other items, a 0:14:42.160 --> 0:14:45.600 pair of shoes which Marvin said were torn up while 0:14:45.680 --> 0:14:50.080 dumping the body. There's also blonde hairs from Marvin's car 0:14:50.440 --> 0:14:51.640 and the pea coat. 0:14:51.880 --> 0:14:55.000 So he says that he wrapped the boy in a 0:14:55.040 --> 0:14:59.640 pea coat and tossed the boy forty feet into the river. 0:15:00.120 --> 0:15:02.840 I don't care. Arnold Schwarzenegger couldn't throw a dead body 0:15:02.880 --> 0:15:05.360 forty five feet. It was physically impossible. 0:15:05.680 --> 0:15:08.400 The other thing is that the boy's body was found 0:15:08.400 --> 0:15:11.080 with his arms crossed, as though he had been placed 0:15:11.160 --> 0:15:13.400 in the river. So it doesn't make sense that the 0:15:13.480 --> 0:15:16.480 body would land with its arms crossed if tossed in 0:15:16.520 --> 0:15:17.840 the way that Marvin described. 0:15:18.240 --> 0:15:20.960 And then when my lawyers first brought me the statement 0:15:21.200 --> 0:15:23.080 I had seen where I had said something about the 0:15:23.120 --> 0:15:25.360 pea coat and the shoes, and I explained them my 0:15:25.400 --> 0:15:28.800 shoes were destroyed at work. And then I says that 0:15:28.920 --> 0:15:31.640 pea coat was not even in my possession. My sisters 0:15:31.640 --> 0:15:33.760 had been using and my mom would wear it was 0:15:33.800 --> 0:15:36.520 my pea coat from the Navy. My sister's Patty used 0:15:36.520 --> 0:15:38.480 it to most. Now she's blind, and so is my 0:15:38.520 --> 0:15:39.680 little sister Lisa. 0:15:40.160 --> 0:15:44.200 But this was nineteen seventy five. DNA testing was not 0:15:44.520 --> 0:15:49.400 available yet, so the state's expert, Mary Jane Burton, sent 0:15:49.480 --> 0:15:53.400 the throat swabs for serological testing to find the blood 0:15:53.440 --> 0:15:56.840 type and then examine the hares under a microscope. 0:15:57.040 --> 0:16:00.400 Hair of my cross copee has now been debunked. It's 0:16:00.400 --> 0:16:03.280 a junk science, but at the time it was considered valid, 0:16:03.320 --> 0:16:06.680 and so Mary Jane Burton concluded that the hairs matched 0:16:06.720 --> 0:16:09.960 the three year old boy, placing the boy in Marvin's car. 0:16:10.320 --> 0:16:13.840 The other evidence that they obtained from Marvin was two 0:16:14.000 --> 0:16:16.840 towels from his car, and Mary Jane Burton said that 0:16:17.160 --> 0:16:19.880 there was ejaculate on one of the towels, which would 0:16:19.880 --> 0:16:22.400 seemingly corroborate the sexual assault theory. 0:16:22.880 --> 0:16:26.600 So, while they awaited the results of the serological testing 0:16:26.800 --> 0:16:30.960 from the victim's throat swabs, Marvin awaited trial under the 0:16:31.000 --> 0:16:35.240 care of a state appointed psychiatrist, all while his appointed 0:16:35.280 --> 0:16:39.960 attorney failed to develop any of the issues that discredit 0:16:40.040 --> 0:16:42.600 his statement or the state's theory. 0:16:43.280 --> 0:16:46.840 My lead attorney he was Robert Dooling. The police chief's 0:16:46.880 --> 0:16:49.480 name was Frank Louling. He was the family member of 0:16:49.520 --> 0:16:51.360 the police chief that was prosecuting me. 0:16:51.560 --> 0:16:53.120 That would seem like a bit of a conflict. 0:16:53.480 --> 0:16:56.160 Right at the time that he was representing me, he 0:16:56.240 --> 0:16:58.600 was up for judgeship in Virginia. 0:16:58.760 --> 0:17:01.520 And then the prology results came back. 0:17:01.960 --> 0:17:04.639 My attorney said, ed the saliva, and here's samples that 0:17:04.880 --> 0:17:08.760 it took from you. Inconclusive, they can't make a determination. 0:17:09.119 --> 0:17:10.880 Beth was the reason I entered the guilty piece. Said 0:17:10.880 --> 0:17:13.080 we didn't have anything to prove your innocence with. So 0:17:13.240 --> 0:17:15.280 he said, what's the only way we will save your life? 0:17:15.359 --> 0:17:16.600 So you should take the plead. 0:17:17.240 --> 0:17:21.480 But there are two issues with this advice to plead guilty, 0:17:21.880 --> 0:17:23.600 one of which we'll address now. 0:17:24.119 --> 0:17:27.040 So in Virginia at this time, the death penalty was 0:17:27.080 --> 0:17:30.560 only available for certain types of murder, murder for higher 0:17:31.080 --> 0:17:33.800 murder where there is extortion, and then murder by an 0:17:33.800 --> 0:17:37.239 inmate in prison. The crime that Marvin was accused of 0:17:37.680 --> 0:17:40.359 very obviously did not fall into any of those categories, 0:17:40.400 --> 0:17:42.359 and so there was no way death penalty would have 0:17:42.400 --> 0:17:43.879 ever been on the table for this crime. 0:17:44.320 --> 0:17:47.919 So the threat of death touted by both his interrogators 0:17:48.200 --> 0:17:53.119 and now by his own attorney didn't exist. Nonetheless, to 0:17:53.160 --> 0:17:57.000 seal the deal, the evidence underlying his guilty plea still 0:17:57.040 --> 0:18:00.480 needed to be heard by a judge, so hearing was 0:18:00.520 --> 0:18:04.919 held in March nineteen seventy six, where the medical examiner, 0:18:04.960 --> 0:18:09.520 Doctor Fierro, testified about the existence of sperm on the 0:18:09.560 --> 0:18:13.480 throat swabs as well as the towel, followed by Mary 0:18:13.560 --> 0:18:16.879 Jane Burton's findings that the hair from the pea coat 0:18:17.160 --> 0:18:21.600 and car were consistent with the victims, at which point 0:18:21.880 --> 0:18:27.480 the serological report was submitted to evidence, and importantly, doctor 0:18:27.520 --> 0:18:31.760 Fierro represented that the report did not change her conclusions 0:18:32.080 --> 0:18:37.000 from the preliminary report. Additionally, Marvin's attorney, Robert Doolan, did 0:18:37.040 --> 0:18:41.320 not challenge that assertion, and Mary Jane Burton was not 0:18:41.520 --> 0:18:45.960 called to testify about her findings or the sorology report. 0:18:46.359 --> 0:18:50.040 Then a detective took the stand to testify about Marvin's confession. 0:18:50.800 --> 0:18:54.959 The prosecution at the hearing describe how Marvin took the 0:18:55.000 --> 0:18:57.679 officers to the boy's body, but really it was the 0:18:57.720 --> 0:19:00.800 officers who took Marvin to where the box was found. 0:19:01.040 --> 0:19:04.520 The other point is that this was a highly publicized crime. 0:19:04.600 --> 0:19:08.640 There were details about the crime and the newspapers, including 0:19:08.720 --> 0:19:11.600 a detailed map of where the body was found. 0:19:11.400 --> 0:19:15.680 But Marvin's attorney didn't point that out either, or any 0:19:15.720 --> 0:19:18.840 of the other issues that could have discredited his false confession, 0:19:19.480 --> 0:19:25.040 and somehow an already terrible situation was made worse during 0:19:25.080 --> 0:19:25.680 that time. 0:19:26.080 --> 0:19:29.560 I was not in touch with reality. The psychiatrists I 0:19:29.640 --> 0:19:31.840 was seeing appointed by the state and he was keeping 0:19:31.840 --> 0:19:34.600 me on senequon value and something else. I forget what 0:19:34.680 --> 0:19:35.040 it is. 0:19:35.359 --> 0:19:37.320 Do you even remember the verdict? 0:19:38.560 --> 0:19:41.440 I remember as the judge was saying something, he seemed 0:19:41.480 --> 0:19:44.080 to be highly pissed. I want to say. During the 0:19:44.160 --> 0:19:47.119 guilty plea hearing, my attorneys warned me to keep my 0:19:47.280 --> 0:19:49.480 mouth shut, don't go in and a running my mouth 0:19:50.280 --> 0:19:52.680 because I was telling them I was innocent. They said, 0:19:52.720 --> 0:19:54.879 if you go and run in your mouth, the judge 0:19:54.880 --> 0:19:57.000 ain't going to accept you guilty, please, and you go 0:19:57.160 --> 0:19:57.919 get the death penalty. 0:19:58.680 --> 0:20:00.639 But the death plony was never on the table. It 0:20:00.680 --> 0:20:03.600 wasn't available for the crime with which he was charged. 0:20:03.800 --> 0:20:07.080 But Marvin, he was afraid of dying, and he was 0:20:07.119 --> 0:20:09.600 promised that he would be out in fifteen years. Of 0:20:09.640 --> 0:20:10.960 course we know that didn't happen. 0:20:11.680 --> 0:20:15.960 I was promised orally promised by both sides I'd be 0:20:16.000 --> 0:20:33.280 out in fifteen years, but they didn't put it in writing. 0:20:34.760 --> 0:20:36.960 I tried to keep the emotions out of it, because 0:20:36.960 --> 0:20:39.840 I knew if I got the emotions in anxiety would 0:20:39.840 --> 0:20:43.400 come about, and so with my depression, I was trying 0:20:43.440 --> 0:20:47.199 to stay away from that because during that time I 0:20:47.280 --> 0:20:49.560 had thought about it and actually tried at the city 0:20:49.680 --> 0:20:54.400 jail to commit suicide. Remember I told you Amy on Senequan. 0:20:54.800 --> 0:20:57.800 So I figured if I kept enough huh saved up, 0:20:57.960 --> 0:21:00.880 then i'd take it all one time. There I could 0:21:00.920 --> 0:21:03.800 probably get out of this situation. And don't ever think 0:21:03.880 --> 0:21:06.439 people are doing it because they're guilty of something they're not. 0:21:07.119 --> 0:21:09.679 You've ever been in a situation where nothing seems to 0:21:09.720 --> 0:21:13.200 go right, No matter what you do, it goes wrong. 0:21:13.880 --> 0:21:15.640 That was the kind of situation where I was living 0:21:15.680 --> 0:21:18.520 in at that time. So I was tired of life. 0:21:18.560 --> 0:21:21.119 I didn't want anything more to do with life. But 0:21:21.480 --> 0:21:23.720 all I did was sleep for two days and then 0:21:23.760 --> 0:21:27.000 I woke up. I spent my first five or six 0:21:27.160 --> 0:21:31.520 years in protective custody the administration. They didn't want my 0:21:31.680 --> 0:21:32.600 death on their head. 0:21:33.440 --> 0:21:36.480 I would assume that you're looked at as a bit 0:21:36.520 --> 0:21:41.200 of a pariah by the other inmates. With a much 0:21:41.280 --> 0:21:46.080