1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,920 Speaker 1: This episode of Wrongful Conviction contains discussion of sexual assault 2 00:00:04,040 --> 00:00:10,520 Speaker 1: and suicidal ideation. Please listen with caution and care. On 3 00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:14,800 Speaker 1: November twenty second, nineteen seventy five, a three year old 4 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:19,360 Speaker 1: boy was reported missing in Richmond, Virginia. A twenty year 5 00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:23,080 Speaker 1: old neighbor named Marvin Grimm joined the search party, mentioning 6 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:25,279 Speaker 1: that he may have seen the boy while running an 7 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:32,040 Speaker 1: errand after the body was recovered, investigators question Marvin, threatening 8 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:34,879 Speaker 1: him with the death penalty until they got a statement 9 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:39,200 Speaker 1: that corroborated what they already believed that the boy had 10 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:44,800 Speaker 1: died by exphyxiation related to a sexual assault, and any 11 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:50,240 Speaker 1: evidence that arose to the contrary was summarily ignored. This 12 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:59,280 Speaker 1: is wrongful conviction. The Fox Foundation is proud to support 13 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:03,600 Speaker 1: this episode of wrongful Conviction and the work of After Innocence, 14 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:07,000 Speaker 1: a nonprofit that helps hundreds of people nationwide rebuild their 15 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:12,040 Speaker 1: lives after wrongful incarceration. Each year, innocent people are released 16 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:15,440 Speaker 1: after spending years behind bars for crimes they didn't commit. 17 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:18,640 Speaker 1: Nearly all of them leave prison with nothing more than 18 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:21,720 Speaker 1: the clothes on their backs, with no help or compensation 19 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:24,480 Speaker 1: from the state, as they face the steep challenges of 20 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:29,520 Speaker 1: rebuilding their lives after wrongful imprisonment. After Innocence is changing 21 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 1: that After Innocence helps exoneries get and make good use 22 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:38,240 Speaker 1: of essential services like health care, dental care, mental health support, 23 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:43,160 Speaker 1: legal aid, financial counseling, and more. Since twenty sixteen, they've 24 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:47,200 Speaker 1: brought that help to more than eight hundred exoneries across 25 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:50,960 Speaker 1: forty six states, working tirelessly to ensure that no one 26 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:55,680 Speaker 1: released after wrongful incarceration is left behind. Learn more at 27 00:01:55,840 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 1: after dashinnocence dot org and join after Innocence to set 28 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:13,520 Speaker 1: support exoneries as they rebuild their lives. I'm Lauren Bright Pacheco. 29 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:17,640 Speaker 1: Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction, where we have a Virginia 30 00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:20,400 Speaker 1: case related to the subject of a twenty twenty three 31 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 1: podcast called Admissible. They covered twelve wrongful convictions related to 32 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:29,680 Speaker 1: one Virginia forensic examiner named Mary Jane Burton, some of 33 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:33,800 Speaker 1: which have been covered here, Thomas Hainsworth, Marvin Anderson, and 34 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 1: the list is longer than twelve. 35 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:39,000 Speaker 2: Well now several on the list. I knew Julius Ruffin, 36 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:41,200 Speaker 2: I used to play ball with him, and I can't 37 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:43,720 Speaker 2: think of the other ones I only knew if Thomas Haynesworth. 38 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:45,880 Speaker 2: I met him at the AG's office when I was 39 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:48,920 Speaker 2: brought in after right after my exoneration, and he was 40 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:51,400 Speaker 2: working in the Attorney General's office. 41 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:55,240 Speaker 1: That is our guest of honor, Marvin Grimm Junior, welcome 42 00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:58,440 Speaker 1: and to help tell his story. We have this attorney 43 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:01,559 Speaker 1: from Arnold and Porter Angelique celebrity. 44 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 3: Thank you for having us. 45 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 1: So, Marvin, you're from Richmond, Virginia and had three sisters. 46 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 1: Where did you fall in the sibling lineup? I was 47 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:17,000 Speaker 1: top dog, so three little sisters, all right, I thought, 48 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:20,240 Speaker 1: So tell me a little bit about yourself as a kid. 49 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:23,120 Speaker 2: I played hardball as a kid. I played up about 50 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 2: the fifteen year old. Because we were moving around, I 51 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:30,079 Speaker 2: couldn't get it to stay situated. Because my father, he 52 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 2: was a salesman. We had time in Richmond, Georgia, Iowa, Minnesota, Pennsylvania, Ohio, 53 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:40,720 Speaker 2: back to Richmond, being up to Mason City, Iowa, and Moorhead, Minnesota. 54 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:42,840 Speaker 2: That's where mom and Dad divorced. And when we came 55 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:44,680 Speaker 2: back to Richmond, and I felt that I was going 56 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:46,839 Speaker 2: to be a drain on the resources. So I said, 57 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:48,600 Speaker 2: I'll just go in the Navy. I'm old enough to 58 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:50,000 Speaker 2: do it. So that's what I did. 59 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:53,000 Speaker 1: And this was in nineteen seventy three, when the Vietnam 60 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:54,320 Speaker 1: War was still ongoing. 61 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I'm going in boot camp getting ready to graduate. Says, hey, 62 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 2: we need some people go to Japan. I said, cool, 63 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 2: I'll go to Japan because I did not want to 64 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:05,680 Speaker 2: wind up in Vietnam. Well, I didn't know at the 65 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:08,920 Speaker 2: time when I volunteered for Japan it's just across the 66 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 2: bay from Vietnam. Well, I was impulsive. Our first cruise, 67 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:16,040 Speaker 2: we went to the Philippines and while we were in dock, 68 00:04:16,360 --> 00:04:18,720 Speaker 2: there was an explosion in one of the engine rooms 69 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:21,039 Speaker 2: and a couple of the guys that were working in 70 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 2: the electricians got burned alive. And I've witnessed it all 71 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:27,840 Speaker 2: because I passed right through it. I don't care how 72 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 2: strong of a person you are. You see somebody on fire, 73 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:33,000 Speaker 2: it can rattle your brain. 74 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:38,719 Speaker 1: I can't even imagine that. You started having panic attacks 75 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:44,600 Speaker 1: and anxiety. So you were honorably discharged because the anxiety 76 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:47,279 Speaker 1: and the panic attacks were getting worse. 77 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:49,919 Speaker 2: That's what the psychologist said. 78 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:53,840 Speaker 1: So Marvin returned from the Navy, got married to his 79 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:56,600 Speaker 1: wife Jan and with a baby on the way. Marvin 80 00:04:56,640 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 1: picked up a second job doing maintenance work at their 81 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:03,800 Speaker 1: apartm and complex, and they lived across the hall from 82 00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:07,400 Speaker 1: the victim and his family, with whom Marvin had two 83 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:10,960 Speaker 1: trivial run ins, like accidentally running over a few small 84 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:14,479 Speaker 1: toys with the lawnmower. The family also had a dog. 85 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:17,240 Speaker 2: I was going back here with the ride lawnmower, and 86 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:19,159 Speaker 2: I knocked on the door and asked him to take 87 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:21,560 Speaker 2: the dog in because I didn't want to run him 88 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 2: over the lawnmower. So that night and I came back, 89 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:27,040 Speaker 2: the stepfather was standing there on the car and he 90 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:30,280 Speaker 2: threatened me behind, saying I'm going to run his dog over. 91 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:32,240 Speaker 2: And I said I adn't saying running your dog over. 92 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 2: I walked away from him and kept going. The running 93 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 2: over the toys was an accident by the lawnmower too. 94 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:45,040 Speaker 1: Later on, this interaction became an alleged motive in the 95 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:48,080 Speaker 1: death of the neighbor's three year old son, who was 96 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:51,840 Speaker 1: reported missing by the mother on November twenty second, nineteen 97 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:52,560 Speaker 1: seventy five. 98 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:56,560 Speaker 3: She calls the Richmond Police and she says that she 99 00:05:56,760 --> 00:06:01,120 Speaker 3: last saw her boy at about one point thirty headed 100 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 3: into a wooded area behind the apartment complex. She caused 101 00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:08,120 Speaker 3: the cops to report him missing at two forty pm. 102 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:11,200 Speaker 3: The officers respond pretty quickly and they show up at 103 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:14,600 Speaker 3: the apartment complex at two forty five pm. They don't 104 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 3: know the exact location, so they just randomly happened to 105 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:20,600 Speaker 3: knock on Marvin's door, who lived in the same apartment 106 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:22,240 Speaker 3: complex as the boys family. 107 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:25,000 Speaker 2: So I'm watching the game when I get a knock 108 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:27,680 Speaker 2: on the door. This guy doesn't identify himself. He just 109 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 2: asked me who in the building has children? I said, well, 110 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:33,360 Speaker 2: the only ones across the hall. After the game, that's 111 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 2: when I go out straight down the road to the highway. 112 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 2: I thought I saw the victim and his a dog 113 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:42,839 Speaker 2: jump out from behind a car. I didn't think of anything. 114 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:46,120 Speaker 2: So when I come back, Channel twelve is set up 115 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:48,240 Speaker 2: and there's people running around everywhere. So I go over 116 00:06:48,279 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 2: and see what's going on. They told me the victim 117 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:52,479 Speaker 2: was missing. I said, well, I just thought I saw 118 00:06:52,520 --> 00:06:55,320 Speaker 2: him such and such. Well take us there and then 119 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 2: we searched all around the area, and then I was 120 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 2: going down to see my wife at night hospital. So 121 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:02,680 Speaker 2: we did it for about an hour. Then they thanked 122 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 2: me and I went home got ready to go down 123 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:05,359 Speaker 2: to the hospital. 124 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:10,440 Speaker 1: Marvin's pregnant wife, jan was dealing with preclampsia, sometimes known 125 00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:13,600 Speaker 1: back then as toxemia, so she was being monitored at 126 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:19,080 Speaker 1: the hospital. Meanwhile, a massive search operation was underway, which 127 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:22,440 Speaker 1: ended four days later when the little boy was found 128 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:26,560 Speaker 1: lying face up, fully clothed in shallow water in the 129 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:30,320 Speaker 1: James River, about nine miles from the apartment complex. 130 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 3: The medical examiner saw what she described to be a 131 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:38,560 Speaker 3: white gelatinate material at the back of the boy's throat, 132 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 3: so she swabs the boy's throat, puts it under a 133 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:45,680 Speaker 3: microscope and reports seeing sperm and so she ultimately concludes 134 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 3: that the boy asphyxiated, with the implication being that he 135 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:52,800 Speaker 3: was orally sodomized and choked to death during the assault. 136 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 3: Detectives were under a lot of pressure to solve this crime. 137 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:00,080 Speaker 3: I know the father of the boy had provided a 138 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:04,120 Speaker 3: list of individuals upon the request of the officers, but 139 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:07,960 Speaker 3: when they went weeks without any suspects or leads, they 140 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:10,640 Speaker 3: zeroed in on Marvin because he was a neighbor to 141 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:12,000 Speaker 3: the boys family. 142 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 1: And Marvin had mentioned to the initial responders that he 143 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:19,080 Speaker 1: thought he had seen the boy while driving that afternoon. 144 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 2: That and plus the even parents had told him that 145 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 2: we'd had problems in the past. Here's the FBI knocking 146 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:27,160 Speaker 2: on my door. Write this statement saying you saw this, 147 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:30,440 Speaker 2: victims such and such, such and such, no problem. Then 148 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:33,000 Speaker 2: all of a sudden, the Richmond Police Department kept coming 149 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:35,880 Speaker 2: over to my house talking to me, and they kept 150 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:38,679 Speaker 2: trying to get me to say something about somebody else, 151 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:41,080 Speaker 2: and I said, I don't know anything about this. I 152 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:43,160 Speaker 2: can't say who did what or did not do what. 153 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:48,480 Speaker 1: Unwilling to create a different target, Marvin was asked to 154 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 1: take a polygraph. 155 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 2: I had nothing to hide, but that polygraph was strange 156 00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:56,480 Speaker 2: because they gave me asked me about five questions. Then 157 00:08:56,520 --> 00:08:59,400 Speaker 2: he just started strutting the thing off, jerking things around 158 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 2: and said, man, you're lying. The police come running in 159 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:03,720 Speaker 2: and start screaming at me. So I took it as 160 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:06,200 Speaker 2: a setup, and that's when I figured out, hey, there 161 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 2: after me, can. 162 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:10,400 Speaker 1: You also explain to me, just for somebody who doesn't 163 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:14,559 Speaker 1: really understand what it's like to deal with panic disorder, 164 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:18,280 Speaker 1: what goes through your body, like how your heart. 165 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:22,520 Speaker 2: Rate will increase, you will sweat, so you know, the 166 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:25,680 Speaker 2: polograph takes your breathing. It does your heart and everything. 167 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 2: So if I got a racing heart and I'm breathing 168 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:30,640 Speaker 2: heavy and sweat, and They're going to think I'm lying 169 00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 2: about something. So that's when I told the police I 170 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:37,960 Speaker 2: have problems with anxiety depression and I forget things. The 171 00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:41,000 Speaker 2: Navy they call them blackouts, because I call them blackouts. 172 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:44,320 Speaker 2: I don't know if I can explain that exactly I 173 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:46,439 Speaker 2: would be doing stuff. Then I come back. Oh man, 174 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 2: I didn't know was that time like that? So that's 175 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 2: when I told the police about it, and I guess 176 00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:52,880 Speaker 2: that's when everything changed. 177 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 1: However, Marvin's momentary alertness lapses, as well as police allegations 178 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:02,679 Speaker 1: of deceit fullness, were not enough to make an arrest. 179 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:06,839 Speaker 1: After all, our audience is quite familiar with the use 180 00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:11,200 Speaker 1: of polygraphs as cudgeled to coerce false confessions, and it 181 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:14,520 Speaker 1: hadn't worked, so they took another stab a few days 182 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:17,360 Speaker 1: later when they picked up Marvin from work at around 183 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:19,800 Speaker 1: four forty pm for more questioning. 184 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:23,480 Speaker 3: Marvin had worked a nine hour shift and they proceeded 185 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:27,559 Speaker 3: to interrogate him for nearly ten hours without ever turning 186 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 3: on the tape recorder. 187 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 2: We was in a room about the size of your bathroom, 188 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:34,440 Speaker 2: four of them sitting around me. I was fenced in. 189 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:37,760 Speaker 2: All they said was, you know you're being questioned. You 190 00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:39,800 Speaker 2: can have a lawyer if you wanted. I knew I 191 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:41,720 Speaker 2: hadn't done anything, so why do I need a lawyer. 192 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 2: They started getting upset with me, getting loud, hollering at 193 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:48,320 Speaker 2: you don't tell us what happened. If we convict you, 194 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:49,880 Speaker 2: we're going to give you a death penalty and all 195 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:53,319 Speaker 2: that stuff like that. So I started having a panic 196 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:56,120 Speaker 2: attack at that time. So it was around eleven o'clock. 197 00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:58,160 Speaker 2: They just finally said, man, I'm trying to get out 198 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:00,280 Speaker 2: of here. I want to get away from this. What 199 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:01,160 Speaker 2: do you want me to say? 200 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:05,200 Speaker 3: At this point, Marvin, who is twenty years old, he's young, 201 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:08,559 Speaker 3: He's been awake for nearly twenty four hours. 202 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 1: And suffering with PTSD and anxiety. 203 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:14,480 Speaker 3: Attacks exactly, he just wants to go home. So he 204 00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:17,000 Speaker 3: finally tells them what they want to hear. 205 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:22,320 Speaker 1: And not only that, but parents back details that only 206 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:25,720 Speaker 1: they knew at that point or thought they knew. 207 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:29,840 Speaker 3: If you listen to the confession, even if you read 208 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:33,840 Speaker 3: the transcript, there are several red flags that stand out 209 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:37,280 Speaker 3: that this is not a reliable confession. So, for example, 210 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 3: Marvin is unable to supply any of the details, and 211 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:44,880 Speaker 3: so the officer has to supply the details of the act. 212 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:48,160 Speaker 2: They asked me, did you sexual assaultant? I'm like what 213 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:51,840 Speaker 2: that was? When I was stuttering, but la la la lah, 214 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:54,160 Speaker 2: and he said, you put his mouth over your privates. 215 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 2: I didn't even know he was sex and exulted. 216 00:11:56,520 --> 00:12:00,920 Speaker 3: To that moment, the officers ask Marvin what he did 217 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:05,720 Speaker 3: to the boy, and Marvin responds, I forced sexual assault. 218 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:09,760 Speaker 3: To me, that sounds like language that a detective would 219 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:12,120 Speaker 3: use rather than a twenty year old man. 220 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:13,680 Speaker 2: And by the way, I never took them to where 221 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:15,480 Speaker 2: the body was found. They played it up that I 222 00:12:15,559 --> 00:12:17,640 Speaker 2: took them, but they really took. 223 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:20,000 Speaker 1: Me right after the interrogation. 224 00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:22,360 Speaker 2: Right, this is two about two thirty in the morning. 225 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:24,840 Speaker 2: I've been up almost twenty four hours. 226 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:28,360 Speaker 1: And when do you realize that you've confessed to something 227 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 1: you didn't do? 228 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:31,839 Speaker 2: The next day, when they pulled me in the rain me, 229 00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:33,840 Speaker 2: I guess it was around six o'clock. They took me 230 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:36,360 Speaker 2: over to a courtroom in front of the magistrate and 231 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:39,040 Speaker 2: he told me I'm charged with murder and asked me 232 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:43,320 Speaker 2: in my financial situations before appointing me an attorney. My 233 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:46,520 Speaker 2: son was born ten days before I was arrested. I 234 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:47,920 Speaker 2: only knew him for ten days. 235 00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:51,640 Speaker 1: How did you explain the fact that you had confessed 236 00:12:51,679 --> 00:12:54,480 Speaker 1: to something that you didn't do to your family, to 237 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:55,840 Speaker 1: your wife. 238 00:12:56,440 --> 00:12:59,160 Speaker 2: They visited me in the jail, I think the second 239 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:00,760 Speaker 2: day I was there. I told him I didn't have 240 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:02,360 Speaker 2: nothing to do with it, and I said, I don't 241 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:05,319 Speaker 2: understand how they can charge me. And then Jan spoke 242 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:06,960 Speaker 2: up and said, you know, they came through and took 243 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:07,840 Speaker 2: all their medication. 244 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:12,480 Speaker 3: So in Virginia, it's not enough to have a confession 245 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:15,400 Speaker 3: from somebody to achieve a conviction. You also have to 246 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:19,120 Speaker 3: have evidence that corroborates the confession. So after they got 247 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:22,280 Speaker 3: what they wanted from Marvin, they had to go execute 248 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:24,640 Speaker 3: a search board and then they collected the evidence that 249 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:28,480 Speaker 3: they would then use to corroborate the confession in the 250 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:31,959 Speaker 3: autopsy report. The toxicology report that came back showed high 251 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:35,680 Speaker 3: levels of alcohol and Cler's oxyzone, which is a prescription 252 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:37,720 Speaker 3: muscle relaxant in the boys' system. 253 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 2: My wife had toxemia, but they took all of her 254 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:43,120 Speaker 2: medication at the hospital that gave her for that. 255 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:45,560 Speaker 1: Because they wanted to claim that. 256 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:48,319 Speaker 2: The drugs and the alcohol, which I had no idea 257 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:49,440 Speaker 2: what happened. 258 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:53,120 Speaker 3: Marvin never mentioned that in his confession. We think that 259 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:56,079 Speaker 3: the officers were trying to get that information out of 260 00:13:56,120 --> 00:13:58,040 Speaker 3: him by asking, well, how did you get the boy 261 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 3: to comply? But Marvin never makes any mention of the 262 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:02,280 Speaker 3: drugs or the alcohol. 263 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:06,560 Speaker 1: Remember, the victim's mother had reported that the last time 264 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:10,280 Speaker 1: she'd seen her son was around one thirty PM, and 265 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 1: then first responders knocked on Marvin's door just seventy five 266 00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:17,920 Speaker 1: minutes later, around two forty five PM. 267 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 3: So we worked with a toxicologist to calculate how long 268 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 3: it would have taken for the alcohol to reach the 269 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:28,000 Speaker 3: levels that it did in the boy's system, and a 270 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:31,080 Speaker 3: toxicologist puts that time period at ninety to one hundred 271 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:33,880 Speaker 3: and fifty minutes, which is well outside the seventy five 272 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:36,360 Speaker 3: minutes that Marvin would have had to commit all the 273 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:38,600 Speaker 3: acts that he states in his false confession. 274 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:42,120 Speaker 1: The police search turned up a few other items, a 275 00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:45,600 Speaker 1: pair of shoes which Marvin said were torn up while 276 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:50,080 Speaker 1: dumping the body. There's also blonde hairs from Marvin's car 277 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:51,640 Speaker 1: and the pea coat. 278 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:55,000 Speaker 3: So he says that he wrapped the boy in a 279 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 3: pea coat and tossed the boy forty feet into the river. 280 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:02,840 Speaker 2: I don't care. Arnold Schwarzenegger couldn't throw a dead body 281 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:05,360 Speaker 2: forty five feet. It was physically impossible. 282 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 3: The other thing is that the boy's body was found 283 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 3: with his arms crossed, as though he had been placed 284 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:13,400 Speaker 3: in the river. So it doesn't make sense that the 285 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:16,480 Speaker 3: body would land with its arms crossed if tossed in 286 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:17,840 Speaker 3: the way that Marvin described. 287 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:20,960 Speaker 2: And then when my lawyers first brought me the statement 288 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:23,080 Speaker 2: I had seen where I had said something about the 289 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:25,360 Speaker 2: pea coat and the shoes, and I explained them my 290 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:28,800 Speaker 2: shoes were destroyed at work. And then I says that 291 00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:31,640 Speaker 2: pea coat was not even in my possession. My sisters 292 00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:33,760 Speaker 2: had been using and my mom would wear it was 293 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:36,520 Speaker 2: my pea coat from the Navy. My sister's Patty used 294 00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:38,480 Speaker 2: it to most. Now she's blind, and so is my 295 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 2: little sister Lisa. 296 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 1: But this was nineteen seventy five. DNA testing was not 297 00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 1: available yet, so the state's expert, Mary Jane Burton, sent 298 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:53,400 Speaker 1: the throat swabs for serological testing to find the blood 299 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:56,840 Speaker 1: type and then examine the hares under a microscope. 300 00:15:57,040 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 3: Hair of my cross copee has now been debunked. It's 301 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:03,280 Speaker 3: a junk science, but at the time it was considered valid, 302 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:06,680 Speaker 3: and so Mary Jane Burton concluded that the hairs matched 303 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:09,960 Speaker 3: the three year old boy, placing the boy in Marvin's car. 304 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:13,840 Speaker 3: The other evidence that they obtained from Marvin was two 305 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 3: towels from his car, and Mary Jane Burton said that 306 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 3: there was ejaculate on one of the towels, which would 307 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:22,400 Speaker 3: seemingly corroborate the sexual assault theory. 308 00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 1: So, while they awaited the results of the serological testing 309 00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:30,960 Speaker 1: from the victim's throat swabs, Marvin awaited trial under the 310 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:35,240 Speaker 1: care of a state appointed psychiatrist, all while his appointed 311 00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:39,960 Speaker 1: attorney failed to develop any of the issues that discredit 312 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:42,600 Speaker 1: his statement or the state's theory. 313 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:46,840 Speaker 2: My lead attorney he was Robert Dooling. The police chief's 314 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:49,480 Speaker 2: name was Frank Louling. He was the family member of 315 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:51,360 Speaker 2: the police chief that was prosecuting me. 316 00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:53,120 Speaker 1: That would seem like a bit of a conflict. 317 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:56,160 Speaker 2: Right at the time that he was representing me, he 318 00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:58,600 Speaker 2: was up for judgeship in Virginia. 319 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 1: And then the prology results came back. 320 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:04,639 Speaker 2: My attorney said, ed the saliva, and here's samples that 321 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:08,760 Speaker 2: it took from you. Inconclusive, they can't make a determination. 322 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:10,880 Speaker 2: Beth was the reason I entered the guilty piece. Said 323 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 2: we didn't have anything to prove your innocence with. So 324 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:15,280 Speaker 2: he said, what's the only way we will save your life? 325 00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 2: So you should take the plead. 326 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:21,480 Speaker 1: But there are two issues with this advice to plead guilty, 327 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:23,600 Speaker 1: one of which we'll address now. 328 00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:27,040 Speaker 3: So in Virginia at this time, the death penalty was 329 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:30,560 Speaker 3: only available for certain types of murder, murder for higher 330 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:33,800 Speaker 3: murder where there is extortion, and then murder by an 331 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:37,239 Speaker 3: inmate in prison. The crime that Marvin was accused of 332 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:40,359 Speaker 3: very obviously did not fall into any of those categories, 333 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:42,359 Speaker 3: and so there was no way death penalty would have 334 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:43,879 Speaker 3: ever been on the table for this crime. 335 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:47,919 Speaker 1: So the threat of death touted by both his interrogators 336 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:53,119 Speaker 1: and now by his own attorney didn't exist. Nonetheless, to 337 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:57,000 Speaker 1: seal the deal, the evidence underlying his guilty plea still 338 00:17:57,040 --> 00:18:00,480 Speaker 1: needed to be heard by a judge, so hearing was 339 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:04,919 Speaker 1: held in March nineteen seventy six, where the medical examiner, 340 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:09,520 Speaker 1: Doctor Fierro, testified about the existence of sperm on the 341 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:13,480 Speaker 1: throat swabs as well as the towel, followed by Mary 342 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:16,879 Speaker 1: Jane Burton's findings that the hair from the pea coat 343 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:21,600 Speaker 1: and car were consistent with the victims, at which point 344 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:27,480 Speaker 1: the serological report was submitted to evidence, and importantly, doctor 345 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:31,760 Speaker 1: Fierro represented that the report did not change her conclusions 346 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 1: from the preliminary report. Additionally, Marvin's attorney, Robert Doolan, did 347 00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:41,320 Speaker 1: not challenge that assertion, and Mary Jane Burton was not 348 00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:45,960 Speaker 1: called to testify about her findings or the sorology report. 349 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:50,040 Speaker 1: Then a detective took the stand to testify about Marvin's confession. 350 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:54,959 Speaker 3: The prosecution at the hearing describe how Marvin took the 351 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:57,679 Speaker 3: officers to the boy's body, but really it was the 352 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 3: officers who took Marvin to where the box was found. 353 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:04,520 Speaker 3: The other point is that this was a highly publicized crime. 354 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:08,640 Speaker 3: There were details about the crime and the newspapers, including 355 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:11,600 Speaker 3: a detailed map of where the body was found. 356 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:15,680 Speaker 1: But Marvin's attorney didn't point that out either, or any 357 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:18,840 Speaker 1: of the other issues that could have discredited his false confession, 358 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:25,040 Speaker 1: and somehow an already terrible situation was made worse during 359 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:25,680 Speaker 1: that time. 360 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:29,560 Speaker 2: I was not in touch with reality. The psychiatrists I 361 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:31,840 Speaker 2: was seeing appointed by the state and he was keeping 362 00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:34,600 Speaker 2: me on senequon value and something else. I forget what 363 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 2: it is. 364 00:19:35,359 --> 00:19:37,320 Speaker 1: Do you even remember the verdict? 365 00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:41,440 Speaker 2: I remember as the judge was saying something, he seemed 366 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:44,080 Speaker 2: to be highly pissed. I want to say. During the 367 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:47,119 Speaker 2: guilty plea hearing, my attorneys warned me to keep my 368 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:49,480 Speaker 2: mouth shut, don't go in and a running my mouth 369 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:52,680 Speaker 2: because I was telling them I was innocent. They said, 370 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:54,879 Speaker 2: if you go and run in your mouth, the judge 371 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:57,000 Speaker 2: ain't going to accept you guilty, please, and you go 372 00:19:57,160 --> 00:19:57,919 Speaker 2: get the death penalty. 373 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:00,639 Speaker 3: But the death plony was never on the table. It 374 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:03,600 Speaker 3: wasn't available for the crime with which he was charged. 375 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 3: But Marvin, he was afraid of dying, and he was 376 00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:09,600 Speaker 3: promised that he would be out in fifteen years. Of 377 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:10,960 Speaker 3: course we know that didn't happen. 378 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:15,960 Speaker 2: I was promised orally promised by both sides I'd be 379 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:33,280 Speaker 2: out in fifteen years, but they didn't put it in writing. 380 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:36,960 Speaker 2: I tried to keep the emotions out of it, because 381 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:39,840 Speaker 2: I knew if I got the emotions in anxiety would 382 00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:43,400 Speaker 2: come about, and so with my depression, I was trying 383 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:47,199 Speaker 2: to stay away from that because during that time I 384 00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 2: had thought about it and actually tried at the city 385 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:54,400 Speaker 2: jail to commit suicide. Remember I told you Amy on Senequan. 386 00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:57,800 Speaker 2: So I figured if I kept enough huh saved up, 387 00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:00,880 Speaker 2: then i'd take it all one time. There I could 388 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:03,800 Speaker 2: probably get out of this situation. And don't ever think 389 00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:06,439 Speaker 2: people are doing it because they're guilty of something they're not. 390 00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:09,679 Speaker 2: You've ever been in a situation where nothing seems to 391 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:13,200 Speaker 2: go right, No matter what you do, it goes wrong. 392 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:15,640 Speaker 2: That was the kind of situation where I was living 393 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:18,520 Speaker 2: in at that time. So I was tired of life. 394 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:21,119 Speaker 2: I didn't want anything more to do with life. But 395 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:23,720 Speaker 2: all I did was sleep for two days and then 396 00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:27,000 Speaker 2: I woke up. I spent my first five or six 397 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:31,520 Speaker 2: years in protective custody the administration. They didn't want my 398 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:32,600 Speaker 2: death on their head. 399 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:36,480 Speaker 1: I would assume that you're looked at as a bit 400 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:41,200 Speaker 1: of a pariah by the other inmates. With a much 401 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:46,080 Speaker 1: more uncomfortable than typical prison experience, Marvin began studying the 402 00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:50,000 Speaker 1: law god his trial transcripts as well as the related 403 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:53,480 Speaker 1: records in which he found the serology report for the 404 00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:54,400 Speaker 1: throat swabs. 405 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:58,119 Speaker 3: When Mary Jane Burton did that blood testing, Marvin is 406 00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:02,480 Speaker 3: type A, the boys type Oh, the results come back 407 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:06,800 Speaker 3: showing type of secretions excluding Marvin, and that's something that 408 00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:08,880 Speaker 3: they knew back in seventy six. 409 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:14,280 Speaker 1: Yet Marvin's own attorney never raised this clearly exculpatory report 410 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:18,320 Speaker 1: while advising him to plead guilty and save himself from 411 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:22,320 Speaker 1: certain death. I think it's worth mentioning that this attorney, 412 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:28,800 Speaker 1: Robert Doolan, accepted a judgeship in Virginia soon after Marvin's conviction. Anyway, 413 00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:32,880 Speaker 1: this sorology report seems like it should have been very 414 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:34,120 Speaker 1: useful on appeal. 415 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:34,800 Speaker 2: Yeah. 416 00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:38,840 Speaker 3: So, I think one of the most fascinating facts about 417 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:43,560 Speaker 3: Marvin's case, in equally infuriating, is that Marvin had raised 418 00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:46,920 Speaker 3: a lot of the same arguments that we ultimately raised 419 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:50,080 Speaker 3: in the petition in twenty twenty three that ultimately led 420 00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:54,440 Speaker 3: to his exoneration, but he was denied on procedural grounds, 421 00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:58,919 Speaker 3: or because that there were certain archaic statutes still on 422 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:01,560 Speaker 3: the books that made it very difficult for somebody like 423 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:06,520 Speaker 3: Marvin to prove his innocence. So for example, in Virginia, 424 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:09,040 Speaker 3: it used to be that if you had fled guilty, 425 00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:12,160 Speaker 3: you could not petition for a writ of actual innocence. 426 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:15,200 Speaker 3: Of course, we know there are lots of reasons why 427 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:17,600 Speaker 3: somebody might plead guilty to a crime. They did it too, 428 00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:21,200 Speaker 3: and that hurdle was not removed until twenty twenty. 429 00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:25,760 Speaker 1: And here it was barely creeping into the nineteen eighties. 430 00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:28,960 Speaker 1: But by the end of that decade we had the 431 00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:33,040 Speaker 1: advent of DNA testing, at which point Marvin petitioned to 432 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:36,440 Speaker 1: test his evidence, but Virginia did not have a statute 433 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:39,919 Speaker 1: that allowed for it until two thousand and one, and 434 00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:44,360 Speaker 1: Marvin hired an attorney named Mike Brickhill to handle his proceedings. 435 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:47,240 Speaker 2: By this time, my father had passed and he left 436 00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:49,960 Speaker 2: me a bit of an inheritance, so I paid mister 437 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:53,680 Speaker 2: Brickhill to get my first runt of DNA testing done. 438 00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:56,520 Speaker 2: And the judge that was presiding over the case for 439 00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:59,199 Speaker 2: the DNA testing, he didn't know me, but he's telling 440 00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:03,200 Speaker 2: my attorney all about the case. Well, then Brickhill found 441 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:06,639 Speaker 2: out Robert Dooling, my ex attorney. It was now judge 442 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:09,280 Speaker 2: was sitting in the back of the courtroom so the 443 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:13,080 Speaker 2: judge wasn't going to grant it, but the Commonwealth job 444 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:15,439 Speaker 2: said no, no, no, y're are we agree. Let's get this 445 00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:16,720 Speaker 2: settle once and for all. 446 00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:20,920 Speaker 1: The first round of testing for the throat swabs either 447 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:25,919 Speaker 1: excluded Marvin or were inconclusive, but the victim could be 448 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:29,280 Speaker 1: excluded from the hares on the PEA code they were 449 00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:33,080 Speaker 1: all female, but the hares from the car could not 450 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:34,359 Speaker 1: yet be excluded. 451 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:37,399 Speaker 2: The problem was is they didn't get a sample of 452 00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:40,840 Speaker 2: the victims, so they couldn't identify whose DNA it was 453 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:43,880 Speaker 2: they had. So the Commonwealth said they were not going 454 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:48,200 Speaker 2: to recognize the results of the DNA testing. Furthermore, they're 455 00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:51,200 Speaker 2: going to oppose any more DNA testing that you request. 456 00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:54,120 Speaker 3: And so the Supreme Court of Virginia denied the relief 457 00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:57,560 Speaker 3: a on a procedural grounds as untimely. But then they 458 00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:00,119 Speaker 3: also pointed to the fact that Marvin had pled guilty 459 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:02,960 Speaker 3: and that there were still some swabs that hadn't been 460 00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:06,119 Speaker 3: excluded by DNA tests, and it still some of the 461 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:08,679 Speaker 3: hairs hadn't been excluded as the boys. 462 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:12,920 Speaker 1: Soon mister brick Hill enlisted the Innocence Project, who tried 463 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:15,359 Speaker 1: to access a vial of blood that could provide a 464 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:19,480 Speaker 1: DNA profile for the victim. But still the fact that 465 00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:23,840 Speaker 1: Marvin pled guilty was a major obstacle to relief. So 466 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:27,520 Speaker 1: they also went to work on lobbying for legislation and 467 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:31,600 Speaker 1: eventually the team at Arnold and Porter also came on board. 468 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:34,960 Speaker 3: When we joined forces with the Nison's project on this case, 469 00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:38,439 Speaker 3: our first goal was to prepare the clemency petition, but 470 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:41,199 Speaker 3: we knew that that was a long shot, and so 471 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:44,359 Speaker 3: we continued to collaborate with the ennosonce project working to 472 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:47,960 Speaker 3: get Marvin released on a role while we would continue 473 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:53,000 Speaker 3: to fight for his innocence. And so our strategy was 474 00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:56,520 Speaker 3: really to understand the facts of the case, not just 475 00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:59,280 Speaker 3: the DNA what was the timeline? 476 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:03,560 Speaker 1: So they I enlisted renowned false confession expert doctor Richard 477 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:07,160 Speaker 1: Leo to develop the evidence that discredited the false confession, 478 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 1: as well as the toxicology expert who we mentioned earlier. Meanwhile, 479 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:15,960 Speaker 1: Marvin visited the parole board for the twenty seventh time 480 00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:19,560 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty, where perhaps some of the new evidence 481 00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:23,199 Speaker 1: had an effect as he was released after nearly forty 482 00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:24,080 Speaker 1: five years. 483 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:28,320 Speaker 2: Well, I went in December and I came out in November, 484 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:31,320 Speaker 2: so it's forty four years and eleven months. 485 00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:37,600 Speaker 1: That is your entire adult life to a certain extent. 486 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:44,000 Speaker 1: I know that you were compensated ultimately, right, But money. 487 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:46,639 Speaker 2: I don't care about the money. They should take the 488 00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:48,720 Speaker 2: money to build the time machine and take me back 489 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:51,320 Speaker 2: to the day before I've arrested and leave me the 490 00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:54,400 Speaker 2: hell alone. That's the way I think about it. I'd 491 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:56,840 Speaker 2: rather have the time back than the money. I wasn't 492 00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:59,240 Speaker 2: at here as the world evolved when I came out 493 00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:01,720 Speaker 2: in April twenty twenty. I was still thinking it was 494 00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:05,000 Speaker 2: nineteen seventy five. Perfect example was when I made parole 495 00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:07,840 Speaker 2: in Virginia. If you're a registered sex offender and they 496 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:10,399 Speaker 2: drop you off at your parole office, she gives me 497 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:13,439 Speaker 2: the rules and then they put a monitoring ankle bracelet 498 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:16,960 Speaker 2: on me and gave me this box GPS trackers, and 499 00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:19,680 Speaker 2: she was explaining how it can pinpoint you on the map. 500 00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:22,480 Speaker 2: So we go to leave take off down the road. 501 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:25,800 Speaker 2: The thing starts ringing and I don't know what it is, 502 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:28,399 Speaker 2: so I hit the button turned it off. It started 503 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:31,840 Speaker 2: ringing again, so I turned it off again. All of 504 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:35,199 Speaker 2: a sudden, my sister's phone rings and if my parole 505 00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:37,919 Speaker 2: officer telling her tell him to answer that phone. I 506 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:40,439 Speaker 2: said that he' supposed to have the phone. He's been 507 00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:43,439 Speaker 2: in prison for the last forty five years. So anyway, 508 00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:46,159 Speaker 2: she called me again and I answered it, and we 509 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:47,800 Speaker 2: talked for a minute, and then she said, by the way, 510 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:48,760 Speaker 2: tell your sister to. 511 00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:53,840 Speaker 1: Slow down, because they knew exactly how fast she was driving. 512 00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:08,960 Speaker 1: After Marvin was paroled in twenty twenty, the fight to 513 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:12,520 Speaker 1: clear his name continued, and through the efforts of the 514 00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:15,280 Speaker 1: Innocence Project in New York as well as the UVA 515 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:19,080 Speaker 1: School of Law to educate legislators on the issues facing 516 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:23,320 Speaker 1: many of the wrongfully convicted. New legislation passed first in 517 00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:27,679 Speaker 1: twenty twenty, making Marvin's guilty plea no longer an obstacle 518 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:32,840 Speaker 1: to a wrint of actual innocence, and then another breakthrough 519 00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:34,840 Speaker 1: happened in twenty twenty one. 520 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:39,840 Speaker 3: In Virginia, they would only consider DNA testing done by 521 00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:45,640 Speaker 3: the state lab. And that's problematic because private laboratories sometimes 522 00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:48,760 Speaker 3: have more advanced technology and they might be able to 523 00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:53,080 Speaker 3: extract a DNA sample when the state lab might not 524 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:57,440 Speaker 3: be able to. And so that law changed in twenty 525 00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:00,920 Speaker 3: twenty one and Virginia would allow for DNA testing by 526 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:04,080 Speaker 3: a private laboratory. So we had three labs look at 527 00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:06,800 Speaker 3: the swaps that the medical examiner had taken from the 528 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:10,800 Speaker 3: boy's mouth that they said at that time had sperm 529 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:13,520 Speaker 3: on them, suggesting that the boy had been sexually assaulted. 530 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:17,560 Speaker 3: Three different labs looked at the swabs and could not 531 00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:24,920 Speaker 3: find sperm, and that is problematic because sperm is one 532 00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:27,880 Speaker 3: of the hardiest cells in the human body, and so 533 00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:32,320 Speaker 3: experts have said that you can find sperm on a 534 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:36,880 Speaker 3: degraded sample long after the epithelial skin cells have degraded. 535 00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:39,400 Speaker 3: You will find it on a sample that has been 536 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:43,080 Speaker 3: poorly kept. And so the fact that it wasn't there 537 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:47,480 Speaker 3: even though there was DNA from skin cells on the swabs, 538 00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:50,960 Speaker 3: that DNA just happened to match the boy, not Marvin. 539 00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:55,320 Speaker 3: That means that the boy likely wasn't sexually assaulted, and 540 00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:58,160 Speaker 3: that the substance in the boy's throat was likely his 541 00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:01,000 Speaker 3: own phlegm. So that was one piece of new evidence 542 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:04,400 Speaker 3: that we used in our petition. The same labs had 543 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:07,440 Speaker 3: also looked at the towel that Mary Jane Burton had 544 00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:10,520 Speaker 3: said contained sperm on it. And had concluded there was 545 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:12,120 Speaker 3: also no sperm on the towel. 546 00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:14,000 Speaker 2: The towel it was in my car, but I used 547 00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:16,960 Speaker 2: on cold days wipe down the windshield instead of waiting 548 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:19,480 Speaker 2: for the defrostr I'd wipe the windshield down. That's what 549 00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:20,280 Speaker 2: that towel was. 550 00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:25,520 Speaker 1: So it appears that the state's experts presented false testimony 551 00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:30,040 Speaker 1: to support the exphyxiation by sexual assault theory. 552 00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:33,880 Speaker 3: And then the other DNA piece of evidence that we used. 553 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:37,800 Speaker 3: Modern DNA testing of the eight hares found in Marvin's 554 00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:41,760 Speaker 3: car excluded the boy as the source from those hair, 555 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:45,280 Speaker 3: so no longer placing the boy and Marvin's car. 556 00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:49,600 Speaker 1: Not only were the hares not the boy in. 557 00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:53,360 Speaker 3: Question, they belonged to six six different people. Yes, yes, 558 00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:57,280 Speaker 3: which just shows you how junk science hair microscopy is. 559 00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:00,760 Speaker 3: Some of the hairs were female and the co Marvin's 560 00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:04,360 Speaker 3: sisters had been wearing. The new evidence shows that Marvin 561 00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:07,880 Speaker 3: confessed to an impossibility. What he pleaded to, what he 562 00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:10,920 Speaker 3: confessed to did not happen. There's no evidence of a 563 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:15,920 Speaker 3: sexual assault. The new toxicology report shows that Marvin couldn't 564 00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:18,800 Speaker 3: have done everything that he said in his statement in 565 00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:23,240 Speaker 3: the seventy five minute window really is an impossible feat. 566 00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:26,959 Speaker 1: As was the alleged forty foot launch of the body 567 00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:29,760 Speaker 1: into a riverbed where the victim was found with his 568 00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:34,080 Speaker 1: hands neatly folded on his chest. So they piled this 569 00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:39,280 Speaker 1: new evidence into their filing in April of twenty twenty three. 570 00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:42,040 Speaker 3: After we filed the petition in twenty twenty three, we 571 00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:45,360 Speaker 3: had met with the Attorney General's office, had presented our case, 572 00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:48,280 Speaker 3: answered some of the questions that they had, and I 573 00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:51,120 Speaker 3: think left feeling good. But in these cases, you never 574 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:54,240 Speaker 3: want to assume that the other side is going to 575 00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:56,880 Speaker 3: join your petition, no matter how strong of the case 576 00:31:56,920 --> 00:31:59,520 Speaker 3: you think you have. And I should say that the 577 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:04,040 Speaker 3: Virginia Attorney General's Office did a fantastic job at doing 578 00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:09,160 Speaker 3: their own investigation and in fact uncovered exculpatory evidence that 579 00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:13,640 Speaker 3: we had no idea existed. So in Marvin's statement, he 580 00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:16,760 Speaker 3: says that he tore his shoe on the river bank 581 00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:19,480 Speaker 3: throwing the body into the river, And so they had 582 00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:22,640 Speaker 3: taken his shoe and done testing of the dirt on 583 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:25,560 Speaker 3: the shoe to see if it matched the soil from 584 00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:28,320 Speaker 3: where the body was found. And there is a report 585 00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:31,680 Speaker 3: showing that it doesn't match, which is exculpatory. 586 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:36,040 Speaker 1: And while the state's reinvestigation continued through the spring of 587 00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:41,280 Speaker 1: twenty twenty three, a podcast called Admissible Shreds of Evidence 588 00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:47,400 Speaker 1: released twelve episodes covering twelve wrongful conviction cases tied to 589 00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:52,360 Speaker 1: one Virginia LabTech Mary Jane Burton, who was initially lauded 590 00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:55,760 Speaker 1: as a hero for having saved physical evidence from decades 591 00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:59,120 Speaker 1: old cases that would have otherwise been destroyed. 592 00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:02,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, so it's unfortunate because people viewed her as a 593 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:07,800 Speaker 3: hero because her preservation of this evidence allowed people to 594 00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:11,040 Speaker 3: test that evidence later on and clear their name. But 595 00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:13,520 Speaker 3: then it also begs the question, well, were they wrongfully 596 00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:16,360 Speaker 3: convicted in the first place because of Mary Jane Burton? 597 00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:20,560 Speaker 1: And a whistleblower came forward who was positing exactly that 598 00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:25,760 Speaker 1: one who had also tipped the podcasters to Marvin's case. 599 00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:29,640 Speaker 2: Did you ever hear the thirteenth episode called the Fallout, 600 00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:33,560 Speaker 2: where the podcaster found out through the whistleblower about my case. 601 00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:35,960 Speaker 2: She described the whole case and she said that Mary 602 00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:39,440 Speaker 2: Jane Burton is being under pressure to come to these conclusions. 603 00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:41,680 Speaker 2: And they talked to the Attorney General and he told 604 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:44,719 Speaker 2: them about the investigation they did. They basically said they 605 00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:47,440 Speaker 2: came away from the labs standing was this really a crime? 606 00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:52,440 Speaker 1: After all, there was no evidence of sexual assault. There 607 00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:55,640 Speaker 1: was the presence of prescription drugs and alcohol which may 608 00:33:55,640 --> 00:34:00,400 Speaker 1: have been accidentally ingested, potentially leading to an unfortunate series 609 00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:04,760 Speaker 1: of events ending in death, and perhaps the Attorney General's 610 00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:07,920 Speaker 1: office came to the same conclusion, and they reached out 611 00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:08,839 Speaker 1: to Marvin's team. 612 00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:12,920 Speaker 2: They told my attorneys that they're one hundred percent behind me. 613 00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:15,719 Speaker 2: I'm innocent. I need to be granted rit of actual innocence. 614 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:18,480 Speaker 2: And then we finally got the oral arguments and I 615 00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:21,160 Speaker 2: sat in I was very very unhappy with what I heard, 616 00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:23,160 Speaker 2: and the judges when they got ready to close it, 617 00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:25,800 Speaker 2: and he says, well, you'll be hearing from us soon 618 00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:29,680 Speaker 2: rather than later. And sure enough, like twenty eight days later, 619 00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:31,719 Speaker 2: here comes the decision of the court. 620 00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:34,080 Speaker 3: Marvin got the order from the Virginia Court of Appeals 621 00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:35,080 Speaker 3: that he was exonerated. 622 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:38,360 Speaker 1: So when was the first time that you really truly 623 00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:40,240 Speaker 1: felt free? 624 00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:43,040 Speaker 2: I was about two weeks later. I decided I'm going 625 00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:45,920 Speaker 2: down to visit my friend in Virginia Beach. He's another 626 00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:48,600 Speaker 2: Exgonnery that was in Greensville with me. He hasn't been 627 00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:52,520 Speaker 2: officially exonerated yet, but he was granted parole based upon 628 00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:55,560 Speaker 2: DNA testing. So I went down to seem and as 629 00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:57,960 Speaker 2: far out as I'd been from the city was the airport. 630 00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:00,239 Speaker 2: So as I passed by the exit, I was a 631 00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:04,279 Speaker 2: little nervous. I kept I kept thinking, oh man, what's 632 00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:07,800 Speaker 2: going to happen here? But that finally hit me by 633 00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:09,719 Speaker 2: the time I got to the Virginia Beach. Hey, I 634 00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:13,279 Speaker 2: can do anything I want to you now except break 635 00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:14,200 Speaker 2: the law. 636 00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:17,120 Speaker 1: Well, there's the first time for everything, right, since you 637 00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:20,640 Speaker 1: hadn't broken the law ever before in your entire life. Right, 638 00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:23,240 Speaker 1: So you know there are people who were at fault 639 00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:27,879 Speaker 1: in this case, right, Mary Jane Burton, your attorney, those 640 00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:31,839 Speaker 1: police officers who lied to you during the ten hour interrogation. 641 00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:34,400 Speaker 1: What would accountability look like? 642 00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:38,560 Speaker 2: That's a good question. I thought, maybe, okay, maybe they 643 00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:42,239 Speaker 2: made a mistake. But when you find out how intentional 644 00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:46,840 Speaker 2: it was. The time I was finally exonerated of the judge, 645 00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:50,759 Speaker 2: three of the detectives, Mary Jane Burton, and one of 646 00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:54,240 Speaker 2: my attorneys had already passed. One of the guys asked 647 00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:56,600 Speaker 2: me he being a Christian, like I'm being a Christian. 648 00:35:57,040 --> 00:35:59,279 Speaker 2: You know, they say that someday everybody's going to be 649 00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:02,600 Speaker 2: judged by Guy. He asked me, what are you going 650 00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:04,600 Speaker 2: to do when your attorney steps up in front of 651 00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:07,240 Speaker 2: God to be judged. I said, I'm going to step 652 00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:09,800 Speaker 2: back a few steps. Kay's lightning hits him. 653 00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:13,440 Speaker 3: I mean, Marvin will never get those forty nine years 654 00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:15,920 Speaker 3: of his life back. His family will never get that 655 00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:18,200 Speaker 3: time back, and the same is true for the victim 656 00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:21,759 Speaker 3: and the victim's family. Right the victim's family may never 657 00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:25,800 Speaker 3: know what happened to their loved one given the passage 658 00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:31,040 Speaker 3: of time. But I think we still try to achieve accountability. First, 659 00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:33,640 Speaker 3: I think we need acknowledgment from the state, and as 660 00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:36,120 Speaker 3: part of that, I think we need a public examination 661 00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:41,799 Speaker 3: into the decisions, the incentives, the culture that led to 662 00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:46,279 Speaker 3: this wrongful conviction in the first place, so that we 663 00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:50,759 Speaker 3: can prevent it from happening in the future. And alongside 664 00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:55,000 Speaker 3: of that, frankly, we need awareness of wrongful convictions, which 665 00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:57,960 Speaker 3: is why I think conversations like this are so important, 666 00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:00,960 Speaker 3: because we need people to understand that people confess to 667 00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:04,200 Speaker 3: crimes that they don't do. We need people to understand 668 00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:08,880 Speaker 3: that there is junk science being used in courtrooms to 669 00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:12,560 Speaker 3: convict people. And we also need justice reform to change 670 00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:14,600 Speaker 3: some of the archaic laws that are still on the 671 00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:18,640 Speaker 3: books that make it difficult for people like Marvin to 672 00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:19,880 Speaker 3: fight for the innocence. 673 00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:23,360 Speaker 1: And so what do you hope that people take away 674 00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:26,400 Speaker 1: from Marvin's case in particular? 675 00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:29,960 Speaker 3: I think an open mind. There is still a lot 676 00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:35,440 Speaker 3: of disbelief over the fact that somebody could confess to 677 00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:38,439 Speaker 3: a crime that they didn't do, and so I think 678 00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:42,640 Speaker 3: being aware of these cases and recognizing that it does happen, 679 00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:45,839 Speaker 3: and that there are certain circumstances and that create an 680 00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:49,320 Speaker 3: environment that is ripe for somebody to give a false confession. 681 00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:53,319 Speaker 2: I'm like this. I believe that most wrongful convictions happen 682 00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:57,440 Speaker 2: because you have a public defender, the state. They have 683 00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:01,640 Speaker 2: ample amount of funds to prosecute you, and they only 684 00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:05,520 Speaker 2: give attorneys ay fifteen hundred dollars to defend you, and 685 00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:08,359 Speaker 2: they're not going to investigate the case. They're just going 686 00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:12,080 Speaker 2: to assume you're guilty because the state charged you. So 687 00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:16,200 Speaker 2: that's where I think most wrongful convictions come about. Thanks 688 00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:19,239 Speaker 2: to DNA and other things, it's coming up. A lot 689 00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:20,960 Speaker 2: of innocent people are sitting in prison. 690 00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:29,840 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. You can listen 691 00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:32,640 Speaker 1: to this and all Lava for Good podcasts one week 692 00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:35,879 Speaker 1: early and add free by subscribing to Lava for Good 693 00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:39,279 Speaker 1: Plus on Apple Podcasts. I'd like to thank our production team, 694 00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:42,680 Speaker 1: Connor Hall and Kathleen Fink, as well as executive producers 695 00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:46,440 Speaker 1: Jason Vlahm, Jeff Kempler, Kevin Wardis, and Jeff Clyburn. The 696 00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:49,200 Speaker 1: music in this production was supplied by three time Oscar 697 00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:52,240 Speaker 1: nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us across 698 00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:55,200 Speaker 1: all social media platforms at Lava for Good and at 699 00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:58,040 Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction. You can also follow me on Instagram at 700 00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:01,520 Speaker 1: Lauren Brightfchecko. Wrongful Conviction is a production of Lava for 701 00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:05,120 Speaker 1: Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number One. We 702 00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:07,560 Speaker 1: have worked hard to ensure that all facts reported in 703 00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:10,440 Speaker 1: this show are accurate. The views and opinions expressed by 704 00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:12,840 Speaker 1: the individuals featured in this show are their own and 705 00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:15,560 Speaker 1: do not necessarily reflect those of Lava for Good.