1 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:20,239 Speaker 1: Hey, and welcome to What Future. I am your host, 2 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:24,760 Speaker 1: Joshua Sapolski, and today I'm very excited because we have Frankly, 3 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 1: an unusual guest for the show at least thus far, 4 00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:33,000 Speaker 1: a bona fide songwriter, musician, producer who I am very 5 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:37,040 Speaker 1: into at the moment. A woman named Penelope Scott. I 6 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:38,920 Speaker 1: bought on Vinyl. I bought a T shirt of hers. 7 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:42,720 Speaker 1: I mean, I became a complete fanboy over over this music. 8 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:45,199 Speaker 1: And what I didn't know and what you wouldn't know, 9 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:47,040 Speaker 1: of course if you listen to this or you heard 10 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:50,320 Speaker 1: it on Spotify, is she became well known. And the 11 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:53,280 Speaker 1: only reason that these records exist at all, and that 12 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:55,720 Speaker 1: she's touring and that you know she's got millions of 13 00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 1: plays on these different services and stuff, is because she 14 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:03,120 Speaker 1: had song that got popular on TikTok. And that is 15 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:06,440 Speaker 1: a that's a weird path of like I know that 16 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:08,399 Speaker 1: it exists in lots of different ways for lots of 17 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:10,840 Speaker 1: different people, but like when you hear about who the 18 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:13,200 Speaker 1: TikTok influence are, actually this is very related to the 19 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:15,040 Speaker 1: some of the stuff that Taylor and I were talking 20 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 1: about last week. When you hear about like the influencer thing. 21 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:19,640 Speaker 1: It's usually like these like girls who do dances or 22 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:22,839 Speaker 1: like funny like comedians doing things, or like weird stunt 23 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:26,400 Speaker 1: videos or whatever, and it turns out there's like actually 24 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:30,040 Speaker 1: really active world of music happening there, and like the 25 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:33,640 Speaker 1: music is just super interesting and unusually produced and unusually 26 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:38,280 Speaker 1: written and combines lots of different genres that I feel 27 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:41,959 Speaker 1: like shouldn't go together but weirdly do. So we got 28 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:44,840 Speaker 1: Penelope to come on the podcast and talk about hopefully 29 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:46,959 Speaker 1: some of this stuff and maybe some other things, and 30 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:50,560 Speaker 1: to be honest, as a huge fanboy of her music 31 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 1: and songwriting, I'm just sort of curious about when the 32 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:57,920 Speaker 1: album's gonna drop, sort of selfishly. So here is singer, songwriter, 33 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:18,720 Speaker 1: producer Penelopes got Penelope, thank you for being here. First off, 34 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:23,800 Speaker 1: this is very exciting. I'm a huge fan, which sounds like, frankly, 35 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 1: like a weird thing to say to anybody, but I 36 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:28,280 Speaker 1: was telling the story just you know, before you got 37 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:30,840 Speaker 1: on that I discovered your music in a sort of 38 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:34,240 Speaker 1: weird roundabout way, which wells probably not that round about, 39 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:35,960 Speaker 1: but I it's like one of your songs was on 40 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:38,920 Speaker 1: a random Spotify playlist. I was listening to and I 41 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:41,200 Speaker 1: heard it and I was like, this is what is this? 42 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:43,120 Speaker 1: At first, I was like what is this? Because frankly, 43 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 1: what you make is so distinct that my brain like 44 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 1: sort of short circuit. And I was like, I've done 45 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:51,120 Speaker 1: maybe I hate that. I might hate this right at first, 46 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 1: And then I took a second because I have a 47 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 1: very immediately critical reaction to many things in life, and 48 00:02:57,160 --> 00:02:58,600 Speaker 1: so I was like, let me just let let me 49 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:00,720 Speaker 1: let the sink in. And I was like, well, no, wait, 50 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:02,720 Speaker 1: actually this is really good. And so I liked it, 51 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:06,760 Speaker 1: as one does on Spotify, and then I forgot all 52 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 1: about that that the song existed. Just feel better. By 53 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:11,760 Speaker 1: the way, his the name of the song. Maybe you've 54 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:14,920 Speaker 1: heard of it. It's one that you did. Yeah. Anyhow, 55 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:17,280 Speaker 1: then I came back to it many months later because 56 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:19,079 Speaker 1: I remember that it existed. I went, and then I 57 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:21,840 Speaker 1: went and I listened to I think like most of 58 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 1: or maybe everything that I could find of yours on 59 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 1: the internet. And it's really really good and interesting and weird. 60 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:31,240 Speaker 1: And um, I used to produce music, so you know, 61 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:32,920 Speaker 1: to me, it's like the songs are really interesting and 62 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:38,880 Speaker 1: weird and good, but also the production is very like 63 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 1: unusual and surprising and exciting to listen to. Let me 64 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:45,400 Speaker 1: ask you, do you produce your own stuff? Is it 65 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 1: all you? Yeah? Well, first of all, thank you, I 66 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:51,119 Speaker 1: appreciate that, and yeah, I do produce all my own 67 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 1: music so far. Now now I'm starting to like actually 68 00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 1: be willing to accept help from other people. But yes, Um, 69 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:05,440 Speaker 1: the Drunkyard two was like completely voice memo material, so 70 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:08,480 Speaker 1: there was no production, and then Public Void I produced it. 71 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:12,760 Speaker 1: I mean Junkyard too. It's interesting you say voice memos 72 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:15,840 Speaker 1: because to me it has because I'm extremely old and 73 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:18,279 Speaker 1: near death, it has a quality of like a four 74 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:20,600 Speaker 1: track or like you know, like Elliott Smith, like demos 75 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:23,120 Speaker 1: or whatever, like in the sense that the distance between 76 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:24,880 Speaker 1: like the stuff that you did on on that record 77 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:28,080 Speaker 1: and what I think of as classic like demo sounding 78 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:30,400 Speaker 1: or indie sounding stuff. Is it actually you recorded into 79 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:32,520 Speaker 1: voice memos? Yeah, most of them were recorded in the 80 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 1: voice memo app on my iPhone. Yeah. Basically what happened 81 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:37,159 Speaker 1: is that I have been playing music for a while 82 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:40,280 Speaker 1: and I would record them sometimes just to have them 83 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:42,080 Speaker 1: and to be able to listen to them later and 84 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:45,320 Speaker 1: hear the songs. And then um, when a couple of 85 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:48,840 Speaker 1: songs started to become popular online. I just went back 86 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:51,400 Speaker 1: for the best of those and put them all together 87 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:54,680 Speaker 1: and released that. Oh I see like a splice of 88 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:57,280 Speaker 1: all those different ones. I think the production on your 89 00:04:57,279 --> 00:05:00,279 Speaker 1: stuff is so weird and interesting and like you and 90 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:02,560 Speaker 1: I probably could just have a really nerdy conversation about this. 91 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:05,040 Speaker 1: But first off, like for me, like you, like ten 92 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:07,000 Speaker 1: years ago, like I was like obsessed with like chip 93 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 1: tune ship like or maybe even earlier than that. It's 94 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:13,000 Speaker 1: funny because when I hear it now, I'm usually like, god, no, 95 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:15,159 Speaker 1: like it's so overused and so played out, and like 96 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 1: everybody's just like doing the same thing. And yet like 97 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 1: when I hear it, like whatever the kind of chip 98 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 1: tuning stuff in your music that I've heard, I'm like, 99 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 1: oh god, that sounds so fresh and interesting original. I 100 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:27,080 Speaker 1: have to say, like it's very impressive, But the way 101 00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:31,599 Speaker 1: you blend it with other it's such an unexpected way 102 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:35,919 Speaker 1: of mixing sounds together. By the way, this is like 103 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:37,599 Speaker 1: totally we don't have to talk about this, but I 104 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:39,640 Speaker 1: have all these questions, like like I wanted to like 105 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 1: how you actually like what are you producing in Like 106 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 1: what do you like tracking um pro tools really Yeah, 107 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:48,880 Speaker 1: So I learned pro Tools. I had a little bit 108 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:50,359 Speaker 1: of help, but a lot of it was just me 109 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:53,920 Speaker 1: beating my head against the wall and it it's it's gnarly, 110 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:57,360 Speaker 1: but it's fun and it's crazy pro Tools. Nobody even 111 00:05:57,360 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 1: talks about pro tools anymore. It's like for such a 112 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:03,919 Speaker 1: long time it was the de facto like pro studio situation, 113 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:06,440 Speaker 1: and then everybody just kind of like shifted to weird 114 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:08,279 Speaker 1: ship like and everybody's like, oh, I just use logic 115 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:10,200 Speaker 1: or whatever because I'm only doing it on a laptop. 116 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:13,080 Speaker 1: So it's fascinating that anybody still uses pro tools. In 117 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 1: my opinion, I'm just like blown away by it. It's wild. 118 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:19,760 Speaker 1: Pro Tools is like the badass one that I'm like 119 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:23,560 Speaker 1: trying to get more proficient at. And then the back 120 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:25,720 Speaker 1: tracks for a bunch of the songs in public Void 121 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:28,919 Speaker 1: was was Limbs, which I don't know how adults say it, 122 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 1: but we always have Limbs and it's just like l 123 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:35,200 Speaker 1: m MS version one point two point one. It's a 124 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 1: free software and we downloaded it. This is kind of fun. 125 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:43,039 Speaker 1: So I was in a music and technology class just 126 00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:47,839 Speaker 1: pre pandemic, and then everything went on zoom, and so 127 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:50,080 Speaker 1: half the kids aren't on campus and half the kids are, 128 00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:52,159 Speaker 1: so they have to come up with a way to 129 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:55,440 Speaker 1: still be teaching the software when half the kids don't 130 00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:57,960 Speaker 1: have access to the software. So they had us download 131 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 1: new free worse software that everyone could use instead of 132 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:05,160 Speaker 1: using the university software. Well it makes sense kind of, yeah, 133 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:07,800 Speaker 1: And it's like you can't do a lot of the 134 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:09,400 Speaker 1: stuff you can do with other things because it's like 135 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 1: a free version of it. So you just go through 136 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 1: and one by one click where the notes are supposed 137 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:16,120 Speaker 1: to be and just compose and just map them on 138 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:18,800 Speaker 1: from scratch, and you have your little drum loop and 139 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:22,000 Speaker 1: you have your little automation track. And that's what like 140 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 1: five of the songs from Public Void was originally made in. 141 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 1: But then I took that backtrack and put it into proachals. 142 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 1: So I have downloaded so many random, weird like open 143 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 1: source like audio apps. So I totally understand this. But 144 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:38,000 Speaker 1: and yeah, this is fascinating. We can have about this 145 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:39,720 Speaker 1: for a long time. But when I knew that you 146 00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:41,760 Speaker 1: were going to come on the show, I started to 147 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 1: do some like you know, non stalker but like deep research, 148 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 1: at least as deep as I could get because I'm 149 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:50,080 Speaker 1: also very lazy, and so what I did not realize 150 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 1: and sort of didn't realize at first, and I listen 151 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:52,880 Speaker 1: to a bunch of your stuff and it did not 152 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:55,080 Speaker 1: occur to me at all, Like you've got a lot 153 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:57,160 Speaker 1: of plays on Spotify and like you've got a bunch 154 00:07:57,200 --> 00:08:00,560 Speaker 1: of records there, you know, albums whatever, ep whatever people 155 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:04,160 Speaker 1: call them these days, And nothing seemed unusual about that 156 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:06,320 Speaker 1: to me. And then like as I kind of dug 157 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:09,920 Speaker 1: into it, like you you became known for your music, 158 00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:13,120 Speaker 1: like through what TikTok? Is that where this started? Yeah, 159 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:15,240 Speaker 1: I would say that's where it started. And it seems 160 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:17,880 Speaker 1: like fairly organically, like you were just putting music on there, 161 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:20,120 Speaker 1: Like I mean, I'm curious like if it was your 162 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:22,880 Speaker 1: goal or not for people to like pay attention to 163 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 1: and share that stuff widely, but like you were just 164 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:28,880 Speaker 1: like putting ideas on TikTok? Is that is that right? Yeah? 165 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:33,600 Speaker 1: I mean, okay, I had had a band camp for 166 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:36,559 Speaker 1: a while where I was just storing the music projects. 167 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:40,480 Speaker 1: And then I would say, I don't even know when 168 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:45,240 Speaker 1: this happened, probably like download TikTok and I'm like these 169 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:47,560 Speaker 1: are fun I like these videos, and then I start 170 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:49,720 Speaker 1: seeing my friends post and I'm like, I should post 171 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:52,319 Speaker 1: some videos. What am I good at? Well, I'm good 172 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:54,280 Speaker 1: at dicking around in my dorm room and I'm also 173 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:56,400 Speaker 1: good at playing music, so I'll combine those two things. 174 00:08:56,400 --> 00:08:58,280 Speaker 1: And then when the music videos started doing well, I 175 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:03,800 Speaker 1: had to like real quick takedown all the stuff that 176 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:06,960 Speaker 1: like was you did not like match the quality. Yeah, 177 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 1: the stuff that was just like my idiot friends, like 178 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:10,880 Speaker 1: cart wheeling down the hall. I had to be like, 179 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:14,800 Speaker 1: maybe we don't broadcast this any See what you're saying 180 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:16,600 Speaker 1: is like there could have been another version of this 181 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:19,120 Speaker 1: where you got really popular for cart wheeling down a 182 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:22,520 Speaker 1: hall or something. Yeah, yeah, there definitely was another version 183 00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 1: which would have been interesting, but no, the music thing 184 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:27,040 Speaker 1: ended up being the thing, and I went with it. 185 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:29,680 Speaker 1: I mean, what's the first thing that you that you 186 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:33,240 Speaker 1: posted that I felt like it took on something, you know, 187 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:37,200 Speaker 1: beyond like sort of your like friends reach or whatever. Um. 188 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:39,360 Speaker 1: It was born to run and it was sweet Hibiscus 189 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:42,880 Speaker 1: Tea and I don't remember which got traction first, but 190 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:46,880 Speaker 1: both of them got popular towards the end of the 191 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:50,000 Speaker 1: school year. So it would have been like what like 192 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 1: May August or May. No, that's not right, that's not 193 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 1: right at all. I'm I'm sorry. This is pandemic memory, 194 00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 1: so I'm totally blurring all the timeline. But yeah, basically 195 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:04,200 Speaker 1: towards the end of the year is that, um god, 196 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:06,720 Speaker 1: I don't even know, do you know? You know? I don't, 197 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:08,760 Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't don't. I want to say 198 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:13,160 Speaker 1: public void you release in so right, I could be 199 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 1: wrong about that, but sure, Like I'm not sure it's okay. 200 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:20,319 Speaker 1: It's been a fucked up couple of years. I think 201 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:23,040 Speaker 1: we're all I think we're all confused about what's been happening. 202 00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:24,960 Speaker 1: But let's just say from the last in the last 203 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:26,520 Speaker 1: couple of years, you've been doing a lot of this. 204 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:28,760 Speaker 1: But like what was interesting to me is, and I 205 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:30,719 Speaker 1: did not even take into account at all, is that 206 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:33,920 Speaker 1: the kind of core the source of this is TikTok. 207 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:36,680 Speaker 1: I mean, maybe there's other places that I don't know about, 208 00:10:36,679 --> 00:10:39,800 Speaker 1: like you mentioned band camp, but like on TikTok as 209 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:43,400 Speaker 1: I kind of delved into your stuff there and then 210 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:46,960 Speaker 1: like you're the community, like not only did these songs 211 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:48,920 Speaker 1: sort of take on a life of their own, which 212 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:51,080 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm kind of curious, Like there's all these 213 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:53,120 Speaker 1: different versions of your songs, like they're sped up or 214 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:55,720 Speaker 1: they're slowed down, or they're like weirdly remixed or whatever. 215 00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:58,360 Speaker 1: What is that like, Like, what's the experience of just 216 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:00,520 Speaker 1: having that stuff kind of spit back got you in 217 00:11:00,559 --> 00:11:04,280 Speaker 1: a in a different form. Yeah, it's definitely interesting. There's 218 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:06,680 Speaker 1: two aspects to this, right. There's like the audio aspect, 219 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:09,320 Speaker 1: where it's like it's always surreal to see your own 220 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:13,160 Speaker 1: content reappear on someone else's account in any way, and like, 221 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:15,720 Speaker 1: especially if you're on YouTube and it's like, you know, 222 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:19,800 Speaker 1: feel better for four hours looped reverb added like rat 223 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:21,960 Speaker 1: but you're in the bathroom at a party. It's just 224 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:27,120 Speaker 1: that is interesting. It's just like, yeah, I don't know 225 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 1: if RAT but you're in the bathroom of a party 226 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:35,000 Speaker 1: specifically exists, but yes, that that genre, right, It's like 227 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 1: this thing a lot, but slightly tweaked in some weird way. Yeah. Well, 228 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:43,240 Speaker 1: the other aspect of it is just the fact that 229 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 1: the kind of music I was making in like THEO, 230 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:51,400 Speaker 1: like this whole little range is influenced by stuff I'm 231 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 1: seeing online. So of course my algorithm of what I'm 232 00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 1: showing online is going to sometimes include stuff that is 233 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:01,280 Speaker 1: made with my own songs, and that gets very infinity 234 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:06,160 Speaker 1: mirror where you're watching content and it throws you your 235 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:10,640 Speaker 1: own song reverbed slowed down and and and it's just 236 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:14,080 Speaker 1: like bizarre. Is that, like, I mean, what do you 237 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:17,080 Speaker 1: do with that? Like I'm curious, Like there's the whole 238 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:19,800 Speaker 1: like content game right where it's like I don't know 239 00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 1: if you're listed as being like the sound or whatever, 240 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:24,440 Speaker 1: but is that good for you? If you like it? 241 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:25,800 Speaker 1: So do you have to kind of like listen to 242 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 1: it like it or do you like just quickly move 243 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:31,000 Speaker 1: past it? What's the right move there for you? Um? 244 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:39,600 Speaker 1: I would say there's really no right move because, um, 245 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:43,800 Speaker 1: you know, the kind of money that you get for 246 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 1: one little clip of your song used in a video 247 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 1: streamed once is just like it's not really It's not 248 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:55,280 Speaker 1: like I would be generating revenue more or less by 249 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 1: like watching my own videos. Right, You're not just sitting 250 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:02,920 Speaker 1: there all day listening to that unrepeat And even if 251 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 1: you did, I mean, that gets very like snaking in 252 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:07,560 Speaker 1: its own tail. That that's just not a territory. But 253 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:09,160 Speaker 1: also I don't want to say, like I never want 254 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:13,560 Speaker 1: to see content like this because I maybe I do 255 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:16,840 Speaker 1: want to hear other musicians and does the how do 256 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 1: I tell the app that that's me and that's why 257 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:24,080 Speaker 1: I don't want to see it? Right? Yeah, you would 258 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:26,480 Speaker 1: think maybe at some point that they would be able 259 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:29,480 Speaker 1: to give artists and control like hey, that's me, Like 260 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 1: that's me control or something. I mean, I don't know 261 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:33,719 Speaker 1: how too much of TikTok is thinking about it, but 262 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:37,160 Speaker 1: you know, they have other problems. I'm sure. The other 263 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:39,640 Speaker 1: thing that that happens is that you're in like conversation 264 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:42,079 Speaker 1: with like the people who are listening to and reusing 265 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:46,079 Speaker 1: your music in a way that I find and listen again, 266 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:49,439 Speaker 1: I'm very old, but I find interesting and unusual and 267 00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:54,840 Speaker 1: perhaps daunting, like I watched a handful of videos of yours. One. 268 00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:57,800 Speaker 1: You're responding to people who are using your music in 269 00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 1: a way that I think, I don't say, like you 270 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:02,680 Speaker 1: didn't like, but like definitely using it in a way 271 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:07,600 Speaker 1: that you know elicited the response from you. And then 272 00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:10,120 Speaker 1: people are like kind of like questioning like your lyrics 273 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 1: and stuff, and you're responding to them directly like does 274 00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:14,720 Speaker 1: that feel like a necessary evil? Like if you're going 275 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:18,760 Speaker 1: to be doing this stuff on TikTok Um. I guess so. 276 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:22,800 Speaker 1: I mean, so I haven't been like super involved in 277 00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:26,840 Speaker 1: TikTok and like, oh man, probably like the last year, 278 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:32,080 Speaker 1: like I really came on the scene, got really invested, 279 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:37,160 Speaker 1: found some support, which is great. But then it got 280 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:40,080 Speaker 1: to a point, like when I was starting to think 281 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:42,640 Speaker 1: about putting hazards out. I think was the time period 282 00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:46,080 Speaker 1: where I'm like getting an arguments about discourse that I 283 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 1: just know nothing about, and that was the point where 284 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:51,200 Speaker 1: I was like, I'm out of here. Man, I'm not 285 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 1: an expert on any of these topics. There's no reason 286 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:57,440 Speaker 1: I would have meaningful insight here. I saw you responding 287 00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 1: to like people questioning the lyrics of a lot of 288 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:03,840 Speaker 1: true crime, which is, you know, you talk about Ted 289 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:06,000 Speaker 1: Bunny being white or whatever. People are like I guess 290 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:09,440 Speaker 1: taking taking issue with like I wasn't even sure like 291 00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:11,960 Speaker 1: what the issue was, like because you, like, I think 292 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:15,720 Speaker 1: Ted Bunny's whiteness is like pretty important and like the 293 00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 1: world of like what Ted Bundy did, but it is 294 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:21,120 Speaker 1: an unusual thing to like to be kind of like 295 00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:25,160 Speaker 1: questioned in such a infantestimal way about the work, like 296 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 1: was it just like an unsustainable sort of conversation to 297 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:32,640 Speaker 1: have with people? Okay, well, first of all, yes, it 298 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:36,120 Speaker 1: was unsustainable for me. Um. I think there are some 299 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 1: people who are willing to have that be the work 300 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:40,240 Speaker 1: that they do and they find meaning in it, but 301 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:45,240 Speaker 1: that is just not I don't enjoy getting involved in 302 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:49,200 Speaker 1: like arguments online. I like a good argument, to be clear, 303 00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:51,040 Speaker 1: Like I think it's fun to like hash out the 304 00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:54,640 Speaker 1: details of these scenarios and like, you know what am 305 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:57,360 Speaker 1: I saying with this song? Like what does it really mean? 306 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:02,440 Speaker 1: But it's just not feasible to like, I don't know, 307 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:05,200 Speaker 1: I don't know. The thing that was interesting to me 308 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:07,200 Speaker 1: about that situation, though, the like a lot of true 309 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:12,320 Speaker 1: crime situation is that people take I shouldn't even say this, 310 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:17,280 Speaker 1: but it was beginning to happen that people were taking 311 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 1: my art and the art of other people that I 312 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:22,320 Speaker 1: was like kind of keeping an eye on at face value. 313 00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:25,360 Speaker 1: So if you're writing a song and you say I 314 00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:27,760 Speaker 1: listened to a lot of true crime, I do. Whatever 315 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:31,280 Speaker 1: these things are, you have people who are taking that 316 00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:33,840 Speaker 1: the way you would take a primary source. Because the 317 00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:36,840 Speaker 1: academic integrity of social media is like very up in 318 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:38,800 Speaker 1: the air. We have no way to cite a lot 319 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:42,000 Speaker 1: of these things meaningfully. Like I did a paper recently 320 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:44,440 Speaker 1: where I was citing a lot of online content and 321 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:47,560 Speaker 1: it's like, oh, like the institutions that have to do 322 00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:49,760 Speaker 1: with knowledge have not caught up to how we legitimize 323 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:52,920 Speaker 1: any of this, and so you have these weird situations 324 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 1: where it's like you're saying something in a song and 325 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:57,240 Speaker 1: people are treating it like you're saying that as a statement, 326 00:16:57,240 --> 00:16:59,960 Speaker 1: and it's like, well, no, because part of what's cool 327 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:01,960 Speaker 1: about songs is that they don't have to be from 328 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:06,320 Speaker 1: your specific intellectual or experiential perspective, you know what I mean. 329 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:10,679 Speaker 1: So it's like, why am I defending a character? A 330 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 1: song could be a story, right, Like it often is 331 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:15,560 Speaker 1: right that you're telling. I mean, it's interesting you're sort 332 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 1: of talking about in some way context collapse, which is huge, 333 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:22,199 Speaker 1: Like I think like you talking to people about like 334 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:25,240 Speaker 1: them calling out that you're saying Ted Bundy's white, and 335 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:27,560 Speaker 1: that's there's some issue with that or something feels like 336 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:31,639 Speaker 1: a contextual collapse in some way where it's like if 337 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:33,920 Speaker 1: you take the song and its totality to your point 338 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:37,199 Speaker 1: as a story that you're telling, you would understand it 339 00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:41,159 Speaker 1: better in that context, but you don't have that, you know, 340 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 1: in the format of TikTok, Like there's no like, I know, 341 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:50,160 Speaker 1: cliffs notes or whatever for what you're doing. Right, Yeah, 342 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:53,080 Speaker 1: I guess that is a lack of context. I guess 343 00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:57,000 Speaker 1: for me, I found myself arguing in favor of the 344 00:17:57,040 --> 00:18:00,359 Speaker 1: point that I was trying to make, and I was 345 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:03,000 Speaker 1: trying to make a point. It's not that that wasn't true, 346 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:05,480 Speaker 1: Like I did have the points that I set out 347 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:10,920 Speaker 1: to explore. And this is hard too, because when you're 348 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:13,080 Speaker 1: reading the comments, that comes at you like a monolith, 349 00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 1: but what's actually happening is, of course a wide variety 350 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:18,199 Speaker 1: of perspectives, some of which have nothing to do with 351 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:21,600 Speaker 1: each other, and so it's hard to discern. But like 352 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:24,320 Speaker 1: in hindsight, it's like there were people who were saying, like, 353 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:26,679 Speaker 1: I don't like your tone in this song because you 354 00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:29,399 Speaker 1: sound like bitchy. And then there were some people saying like, 355 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:32,240 Speaker 1: I don't like this tone in your song. It's unrelated 356 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:34,480 Speaker 1: to the rest of this stuff. And then there's a 357 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:36,719 Speaker 1: significant chunk of people who are like, I don't like 358 00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:40,200 Speaker 1: that you are disrespecting the intelligence of serial killers. That 359 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:42,400 Speaker 1: I idolized, and it's like, so these are three extremely 360 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:49,639 Speaker 1: different points that I like, that is a wide range, 361 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:52,480 Speaker 1: it's a wide right, and it's like it's I should specify. 362 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:54,639 Speaker 1: I don't think that most of the people who were like, 363 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:58,000 Speaker 1: what do you mean to buy the genius? Like they 364 00:18:58,040 --> 00:18:59,920 Speaker 1: thought that the point I was making is like he's 365 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:02,400 Speaker 1: sucks because he murders, And they were coming back with like, 366 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:04,800 Speaker 1: you can be smart and murder. Oh my god, No, 367 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:07,639 Speaker 1: I mean yes, but it was actually happening was a 368 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:10,960 Speaker 1: totally different argument. No, But but like, are there is 369 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:13,040 Speaker 1: that is that a group of people who are like, 370 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:15,960 Speaker 1: you need to respect Ted Bundy because like, I don't 371 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:18,520 Speaker 1: think that opinion is really super valid. No, No, So 372 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 1: this is actually much more interesting because this is this 373 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:25,200 Speaker 1: is the misunderstanding, right, we think there are people who 374 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:27,400 Speaker 1: are like, you need to respect Ted Bundy, But what's 375 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:30,600 Speaker 1: actually happening is that those are people who are upset 376 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:36,560 Speaker 1: that you would question the mechanisms by which we categorize 377 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:39,600 Speaker 1: certain people as smart. One of the criticisms being why 378 00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:41,840 Speaker 1: are you categorizing this person is smart if what they're 379 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:47,520 Speaker 1: proficient at is murdering girls? And that's the real conversation, 380 00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:54,880 Speaker 1: it's like, you know, for me, yes, for me absolutely. 381 00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:57,720 Speaker 1: First off, that's super interesting and like a level of 382 00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:01,920 Speaker 1: discourse on this particular topic that I have not engaged with, 383 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:04,800 Speaker 1: which is like, you know, honestly kind of surprising because 384 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 1: I've been pretty online for most of my adult life. 385 00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:10,679 Speaker 1: But like, what's really interesting on top a layer on 386 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:12,879 Speaker 1: top of all this is like this is just people 387 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:17,239 Speaker 1: who are like nitpicking your art basically right, literally, like 388 00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:19,960 Speaker 1: you know, the everyone's a critic thing is on full 389 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:23,800 Speaker 1: display in this situation where there is a subset of 390 00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:29,240 Speaker 1: people who can find like pretty much any lyric problematic 391 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:32,639 Speaker 1: for them for for a different reason, which is, you know, 392 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:35,040 Speaker 1: it seems daunting, Like I don't know that that artists 393 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:38,400 Speaker 1: at any other period in the world had to experience 394 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:42,000 Speaker 1: such a specific taking apart or picking a part of 395 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:44,920 Speaker 1: their of their art, writer of their craft, Like that 396 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:48,720 Speaker 1: seems deranged. Yeah, well yeah, and that is part of 397 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:51,160 Speaker 1: why I had to kind of take a step back, because, 398 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:54,840 Speaker 1: as you can tell, the topics that I'm interested in 399 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:57,280 Speaker 1: on this level, I can like totally rant about I 400 00:20:57,400 --> 00:20:59,560 Speaker 1: enjoy this, Like, well, why do you want them to 401 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:01,600 Speaker 1: be smart? It's because you care about smartness, and that's 402 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:03,440 Speaker 1: what we're I'm actually talking about, Like, let's get into it, 403 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:05,639 Speaker 1: let's get academic with it, let's get weird. But like 404 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:08,200 Speaker 1: at the end of the day, it's like what I 405 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:12,760 Speaker 1: should have said was this is a story and a song, 406 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:14,879 Speaker 1: And I don't understand why you're trying to drag me 407 00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:19,919 Speaker 1: into like a like a debate about the truth of 408 00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:22,880 Speaker 1: something that is a work of fiction, you know, right, 409 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:37,359 Speaker 1: I mean, I think the level that you're on in 410 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:42,560 Speaker 1: the argument of this conversation about like why somebody wants 411 00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:45,520 Speaker 1: somebody to be represented as smart or not smart based 412 00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:48,720 Speaker 1: on like some quality that they have, which is, by 413 00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:51,520 Speaker 1: the way, super fucking out there. Like I mean, most 414 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:54,920 Speaker 1: people will not entertain such a conversation, but certainly online 415 00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:58,920 Speaker 1: there is a deep pool of people who want to 416 00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:01,679 Speaker 1: talk about that kind of off. I mean, it's an 417 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:04,520 Speaker 1: interesting argument, but like, can you have that argument at 418 00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:08,000 Speaker 1: scale on TikTok? You know what I mean? Like is 419 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:12,440 Speaker 1: that the environment? Well, you know, maybe for somebody, as 420 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:16,960 Speaker 1: it turns out, not for me. Um, because I enjoy 421 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:19,439 Speaker 1: these topics, but it's just not a good format for them. 422 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:21,560 Speaker 1: I don't think you have a song called rat what 423 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:25,359 Speaker 1: you mentioned, which I now own the shirt, the Rat shirt, 424 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:27,199 Speaker 1: because I was like, that's a pretty good design and 425 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:30,400 Speaker 1: I need more black shirts and I love supporting artists. 426 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:31,760 Speaker 1: It's a good shirt, by the way, It's like a 427 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:35,879 Speaker 1: good fit, like high quality. But that song is like 428 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:39,120 Speaker 1: a lot about Elon Musk from what I can tell, 429 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:41,359 Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not an expert. Actually I'm kind of 430 00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:44,040 Speaker 1: an expert on that topic. I mean, the song is 431 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:46,520 Speaker 1: a lot about Elon Musk and people like Elon Muskin. 432 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:49,320 Speaker 1: Also sort of like people who like Elon Musk, and 433 00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:52,280 Speaker 1: you are highly fucking argumentative in that, like it's not 434 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:55,720 Speaker 1: a tame opinion. You're not like, oh, I have a 435 00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:58,080 Speaker 1: kind of middle of the road take on Elon Musk. 436 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:00,760 Speaker 1: Like talk about Rat for a second, talk about the song, 437 00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:03,560 Speaker 1: and also for people who haven't heard it, maybe explain 438 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:09,119 Speaker 1: the concept of it. Yeah, so let's see what to 439 00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:13,440 Speaker 1: say about Rat. I wrote Rat pretty late in the game. 440 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:15,560 Speaker 1: With regard to the rest of the songs on Public 441 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:22,320 Speaker 1: void Um, feel Better was old and I spruced it 442 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:24,280 Speaker 1: up a little to put it with the others. But 443 00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:26,280 Speaker 1: most of the others I had been working on kind 444 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:29,720 Speaker 1: of the summer before I released the whole album. Rat 445 00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:33,320 Speaker 1: was one of those ones where you start typing into 446 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:36,040 Speaker 1: the notes app and you're like, that kind of goes together. Actually, 447 00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:37,760 Speaker 1: this is all tied to the same idea now that 448 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:39,640 Speaker 1: I think about it, And then you have a song 449 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:43,240 Speaker 1: and I threw it together. I didn't spend a ton 450 00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:48,359 Speaker 1: of time making it be totally perfect, like I often 451 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:51,000 Speaker 1: like to nitpick with my songs and with my production, 452 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:53,119 Speaker 1: and in this one I didn't, And I tacked it 453 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:54,760 Speaker 1: onto the end of the album because I was like, 454 00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:57,639 Speaker 1: this is not going to be to most people's taste. 455 00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:00,760 Speaker 1: This is a weird one that I've made. I will 456 00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:04,120 Speaker 1: hide it at the end where all the bad songs go, 457 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:08,640 Speaker 1: and then nobody will hear it. Yeah, this is classic. Yeah. 458 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:10,320 Speaker 1: What was the v H one show where they would 459 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 1: like document some hit song or whatever, And on every 460 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:15,280 Speaker 1: one of those there was either one of two takes 461 00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:17,199 Speaker 1: on the song that became the huge hit, which was 462 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:19,440 Speaker 1: either I heard this and I thought it was complete 463 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:21,919 Speaker 1: ship or I heard this and I knew it was 464 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:24,199 Speaker 1: going to be a hit. When you're so close to it, 465 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:27,800 Speaker 1: you can't really tell which way it's going to break, 466 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:30,399 Speaker 1: you know, all right, so you stick it at the 467 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:32,359 Speaker 1: end of the record. Yeah, I stick it at the 468 00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:35,320 Speaker 1: end of the record, and I'm like, I will also say, like, 469 00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:38,880 Speaker 1: I was surprised on tour. I thought that a lot 470 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:41,399 Speaker 1: of the sentiments I had were very West Coast because 471 00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:46,520 Speaker 1: I have a lot of friends from Silicon Valley adjacent, 472 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:48,840 Speaker 1: and then I have a lot of friends from like Seattle, 473 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:52,119 Speaker 1: Amazon Territory adjacent, and like, so this is something we 474 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:54,480 Speaker 1: talked about a lot. Is like why is it fucking like, 475 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:58,760 Speaker 1: like why why always you think things are cool and 476 00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:01,000 Speaker 1: you want there to be robe loots and they're always 477 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 1: mean and I don't understand and that sucks. Like that's 478 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:12,719 Speaker 1: what it's about. It's about loss of faith. It's about 479 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:14,960 Speaker 1: I like had stars in my eyes and I thought 480 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:17,639 Speaker 1: all these things were so cool and all these people 481 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:21,160 Speaker 1: were my heroes, and you grow up and you're like, fuck, 482 00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:24,760 Speaker 1: I didn't want that to happen. So wait a second. 483 00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:27,439 Speaker 1: You grew up in in like around Silicone Valley or 484 00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:31,040 Speaker 1: near Silicone Valley, is that correct? But driving distance? Yeah, 485 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:33,119 Speaker 1: so so when you were growing up and this is 486 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:36,080 Speaker 1: fascinating because I grew up in Pittsburgh, which is where 487 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:38,960 Speaker 1: nothing happens for the most part, except the Steelers, And 488 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:42,080 Speaker 1: I don't like sports, so it's a problem. But when 489 00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:44,440 Speaker 1: you were like growing up there, like people like Steve 490 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:46,240 Speaker 1: Jobs and these other people who were sort of like 491 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:51,800 Speaker 1: the like leaders of sort of technology culture kids there 492 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:54,199 Speaker 1: or whatever, We're like, these people are cool. Was that 493 00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:58,399 Speaker 1: like a thing? I mean, yeah, yeah, at least around me. 494 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:01,119 Speaker 1: And also this might have to do with the age 495 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:03,320 Speaker 1: group that is the first age group to kind of 496 00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:06,399 Speaker 1: like join the learning curve of iPhones and like smartphones. 497 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:10,800 Speaker 1: But I mean, because people forget that all these things 498 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:14,480 Speaker 1: are so into your psychology as a child too, Like 499 00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:17,720 Speaker 1: it's technology, it's not just about like and then the 500 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:19,560 Speaker 1: country did this, and then the country did that. It's 501 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:24,600 Speaker 1: like you're fond memories of being loved and being excited 502 00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:27,159 Speaker 1: about things. Is there a phone in them? What was 503 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:30,880 Speaker 1: it like? Like these things are so deep to your 504 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:34,040 Speaker 1: core memories. So yeah, and I would say that, like 505 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:37,720 Speaker 1: I don't know, Yes, there's a lot of love for technology. 506 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:40,879 Speaker 1: And I was so surprised I played chose to find 507 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:44,639 Speaker 1: that kids in places that were not Seattle specifically or 508 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:47,720 Speaker 1: Silicon Valley specifically knew all the words too. And we're 509 00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:51,280 Speaker 1: just as feisty and I was like, oh, okay, interesting. 510 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:57,520 Speaker 1: I think there's something universal about the idea that those 511 00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:01,159 Speaker 1: people are going to take us places we haven't gone before, 512 00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:03,119 Speaker 1: and that there is something to cheer. I mean, I 513 00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:04,800 Speaker 1: do want to unpack RAT a little bit more. But 514 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:06,879 Speaker 1: like talking about Elon Musk, which is he has been 515 00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:09,560 Speaker 1: a topic on this show for several episodes. I can 516 00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:13,159 Speaker 1: tell you because it's like, here's a guy who a 517 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:15,280 Speaker 1: few years ago I would have been like, let me 518 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:17,440 Speaker 1: ask him the most interesting question I can think of 519 00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:20,480 Speaker 1: because they'll have the most interesting answer. And like I, 520 00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:22,680 Speaker 1: I as well as anybody else, was like, this guy's 521 00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:25,920 Speaker 1: really fucking interesting and smart. And now I'm like, whoa, 522 00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:28,880 Speaker 1: this person is a piece of ship who sucks. Like 523 00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:32,760 Speaker 1: that's really weird. So I think I understand it, probably 524 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:34,600 Speaker 1: from a different perspective, but like I can't imagine what 525 00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:38,480 Speaker 1: it was like growing up around it, because like it's 526 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:41,000 Speaker 1: so easy to be influenced by that when you're younger, right, 527 00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:44,320 Speaker 1: like to have it surround you and to be influenced 528 00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:47,320 Speaker 1: by it. Yeah, I think I think there's something to that. 529 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:50,080 Speaker 1: I mean, I guess I will just say, like that's 530 00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:52,080 Speaker 1: part of why RAT is the way that it is. 531 00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:55,640 Speaker 1: I think that there's a lot of talks about like 532 00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:58,160 Speaker 1: I don't know Elon Us specifically, but like the Elon 533 00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:00,720 Speaker 1: Musk type that are like, you know, I have the 534 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:03,040 Speaker 1: moral high ground and this is what he's doing wrong, 535 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:06,639 Speaker 1: or like, you know, actually I was his like I 536 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:09,040 Speaker 1: like worked for his company and whatever, and this is 537 00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:12,679 Speaker 1: like my personal intel experience, Like I wanted rat not 538 00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:14,880 Speaker 1: to be that. I didn't want it to be like 539 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:17,560 Speaker 1: these are my well thought out criticisms of how you're 540 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:19,679 Speaker 1: choosing to run your company. I wanted it to be 541 00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:22,840 Speaker 1: like you hurt my feelings. I liked you, and you 542 00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:26,360 Speaker 1: made me sad. You know, it's a break up host. 543 00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:29,760 Speaker 1: It's like literally you say, like you broke my heart 544 00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:32,600 Speaker 1: right or whatever like that you're saying, like I thought 545 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:33,920 Speaker 1: you were going to be this great thing and it 546 00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:36,000 Speaker 1: turns out like you're sort of trash and you're bad 547 00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:39,640 Speaker 1: for humanity. So was that a revelation for you at 548 00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:42,880 Speaker 1: some point? Like was that a thing that that happened 549 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:47,600 Speaker 1: in your life? Um? I think it happens over the 550 00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:50,640 Speaker 1: course of years in most people's lives. I think it's 551 00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:57,480 Speaker 1: very normal to have at least a few good dramatic 552 00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:01,800 Speaker 1: breaks in your worldview between the age of like ten 553 00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:04,760 Speaker 1: and twenty one, and in our case, it's going to 554 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:07,920 Speaker 1: have to do with technology where your world is shattering. Yeah, 555 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:11,040 Speaker 1: and it's like part of it, you know. I wouldn't 556 00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:13,280 Speaker 1: say that there was like a specific instance. It's not 557 00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:17,840 Speaker 1: like I was like standing in the street in San 558 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:24,640 Speaker 1: Jose watching Tesla's like fighting, like no, like just it's 559 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:27,760 Speaker 1: just a single tear streaming down your face as you Yeah, 560 00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:29,920 Speaker 1: you're like I did. I thought this was gonna be 561 00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:34,640 Speaker 1: a better car or something, and now I'm yeah, No, No, 562 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:36,920 Speaker 1: I just think that it's you know, a subtle thing, 563 00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:39,800 Speaker 1: more subtle, more long term. Yeah, but I think it 564 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:43,360 Speaker 1: speaks to like the whole world that we occupy right now, 565 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:45,800 Speaker 1: right Like, I think it became very popular. I feel 566 00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:48,080 Speaker 1: like you can find it in lots of different places, 567 00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:50,760 Speaker 1: but it is definitely something that you see on TikTok 568 00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:54,240 Speaker 1: on other social networks. Ironically, it's not ironic at all. 569 00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:58,040 Speaker 1: It's all connected. No, but it's like the disillusionment with 570 00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:00,080 Speaker 1: like technology and where it was going to take and 571 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:02,400 Speaker 1: who was going to lead it. I feel like, God, 572 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:05,240 Speaker 1: that's like so universal now. I mean I think you 573 00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:07,200 Speaker 1: were ahead of the curve to some degree on the 574 00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:10,760 Speaker 1: severity of how bad the disappointment was going to be. Right, 575 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:14,880 Speaker 1: like that song you did like two years ago or something, Yeah, 576 00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 1: I did do it two years ago, and I think 577 00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:19,480 Speaker 1: an important part of it like this, for me, this 578 00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 1: is the key difference. Why can't you have these complex, 579 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:27,400 Speaker 1: nuanced discussions about fact in the same medium where you're 580 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:31,440 Speaker 1: doing the art Because the song isn't saying, it's not prescriptive. 581 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:33,120 Speaker 1: It's not like this is what we should do. The 582 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:37,600 Speaker 1: song is ouch, it's sad. I feel bad and I 583 00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:39,840 Speaker 1: still want to go to space, but I don't want 584 00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:43,760 Speaker 1: it to be nasty, like it's like you know, yeah, 585 00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:47,400 Speaker 1: And I think it's really important for people to get 586 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:50,360 Speaker 1: in touch with that feeling first before all this stuff 587 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:52,840 Speaker 1: about like where do we go, what do we do, 588 00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:55,000 Speaker 1: how do we make it better? Who's to blame? It's 589 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:57,360 Speaker 1: important to just take a second and be like, I 590 00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:01,080 Speaker 1: am never going to be somebody who doesn't think that 591 00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:04,640 Speaker 1: this tech stuff is cool. That's I'm never getting out 592 00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:06,920 Speaker 1: of that. I'm always going to be impressed. I'm always 593 00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:13,560 Speaker 1: going to love these advancements, and it's gonna be bitter sweet, yeah, right, 594 00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:17,120 Speaker 1: sort of talking about this um lack of space for 595 00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:19,800 Speaker 1: this sort of art or the emotion of it to 596 00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:22,520 Speaker 1: breathe like, I mean, it's funny because I know you 597 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:24,560 Speaker 1: did like a Genius video, and Genius is a really 598 00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:27,800 Speaker 1: good example of this, where literally, line by line, people 599 00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:29,920 Speaker 1: will go like, well, let me explain what this thing means. 600 00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:33,000 Speaker 1: And I think I'm not arguing that any art like 601 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:34,920 Speaker 1: needs to exist like this, but I think art in 602 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:38,480 Speaker 1: some way music in some way in previous generations, where 603 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:42,680 Speaker 1: there wasn't constant content and discourse produced about an individual 604 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:45,080 Speaker 1: piece of art, you can have a personal take on 605 00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:50,240 Speaker 1: it that was not informed by or reflected by some 606 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:53,680 Speaker 1: other person's like piece of discourse about it. And now, 607 00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:55,560 Speaker 1: I mean, this is sort of like what I thought 608 00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:57,440 Speaker 1: was so interesting about the TikTok stuff that I saw 609 00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:01,520 Speaker 1: from you. It was literally a line from a song 610 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:05,280 Speaker 1: had to be discussed because someone didn't get it. And 611 00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:07,040 Speaker 1: it wasn't like they didn't get it personally and they 612 00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:08,480 Speaker 1: had to think about it. It was like they didn't 613 00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:10,960 Speaker 1: get it. And now their lack of getting it or 614 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:14,600 Speaker 1: understanding it has become a topic of conversation that the 615 00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:19,600 Speaker 1: artists themselves must respond to, which feels like, I don't know, 616 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:23,800 Speaker 1: like could be a creativity prison in some way, you know. Yeah, 617 00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:28,560 Speaker 1: I think it interrupts the process of writing music. Yeah, 618 00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:31,000 Speaker 1: if you're not careful. I mean it's not like it's 619 00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:32,959 Speaker 1: a total barrier, but it has to be navigated one 620 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:35,200 Speaker 1: way or another. Yeah, but you're like kind of not 621 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:37,360 Speaker 1: online very much, like from what I can tell, Yeah, 622 00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:39,640 Speaker 1: I'm really not. Yeah. No, I mean I started following 623 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:42,160 Speaker 1: you a bunch of different things, and frankly it's even 624 00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:44,320 Speaker 1: hard to like find like I'm like, is this is 625 00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:46,280 Speaker 1: this her account? Like I don't know, you know, it's 626 00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:53,080 Speaker 1: sort of vague. Have you basically disengaged from like that conversation? Um, 627 00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:55,520 Speaker 1: I have not been on TikTok in a really long time. 628 00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:59,360 Speaker 1: I'm still on Instagram quite a bit. I don't post 629 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:04,240 Speaker 1: a lot, but I'm looking at stuff a lot. Um. Yeah, 630 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:07,520 Speaker 1: like a creep on Instagram. Okay, good to know. Yeah, 631 00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:12,440 Speaker 1: I totally alert or on Instagram and I will like 632 00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:16,640 Speaker 1: look through interactions with my content. But I also, I mean, 633 00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:19,920 Speaker 1: I have a other fake Instagram for sure that I'll 634 00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:22,440 Speaker 1: just go through and use, Like I don't it's not 635 00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:26,440 Speaker 1: the public one. But I'm engaged all the time of Instagram, 636 00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:28,800 Speaker 1: I believe is what they're calling it these days. Um, 637 00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:32,520 Speaker 1: but TikTok, Like, was there some specific moment with TikTok 638 00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:34,040 Speaker 1: where you're like, no, I got I can't do this. 639 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:37,360 Speaker 1: I think I stuck it out for a few waves 640 00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:40,720 Speaker 1: of trolls, But one wave of trolls got to a 641 00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:44,840 Speaker 1: point where I was like, this is just stupid. I'm 642 00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:50,320 Speaker 1: choosing actively to open my phone every day and allow 643 00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:55,320 Speaker 1: not even the opinions, but just like the words, the loose, 644 00:33:55,760 --> 00:34:01,400 Speaker 1: unmitigated words of strangers to affect the degree to which 645 00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:05,520 Speaker 1: I can make this content being the art, not not 646 00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:08,920 Speaker 1: the videos, to be clear, but like it's like it 647 00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:11,120 Speaker 1: became a point where instead of being like, no, it's 648 00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:13,799 Speaker 1: my duty to look at everything and like take all 649 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:15,680 Speaker 1: these criticisms to heart, I hit a point where I 650 00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:18,960 Speaker 1: was like, I am choosing to be less proficient at 651 00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:22,480 Speaker 1: the thing that I now do. I should stop making 652 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:25,120 Speaker 1: that choice. I should close my phone and go outside. Yeah, 653 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:27,600 Speaker 1: but that's kind of fucking crazy when you think about it, 654 00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:31,399 Speaker 1: because it's like you had this platform, you were using 655 00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:34,080 Speaker 1: this platform in a way that was like you can 656 00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:36,920 Speaker 1: make an argument. It's super fucking positive that you were 657 00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:39,680 Speaker 1: able to put music on it as far as I know, 658 00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:42,160 Speaker 1: like you didn't have like a huge record deal or something. 659 00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:44,680 Speaker 1: You weren't like a famous person previously. You're like a 660 00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:48,520 Speaker 1: human being on TikTok putting music on it, and that 661 00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:51,080 Speaker 1: it struck a chord. No pun intended, though I do 662 00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:54,440 Speaker 1: apologize for saying that, um, it struck some chord with people, 663 00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:57,480 Speaker 1: and then it became a thing. And then immediately or 664 00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:02,120 Speaker 1: not immediately, but pretty shortly thereafter, that environment became so 665 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:04,799 Speaker 1: upsetting or toxic for you. I mean, I don't want 666 00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:07,160 Speaker 1: to use the word toxic. I think it gets overused, 667 00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:10,080 Speaker 1: but like it became a not good environment from what 668 00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:12,040 Speaker 1: I when I'm hearing, and you basically disengage with it, 669 00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:15,480 Speaker 1: which seems like a real failure of the platform in 670 00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:18,799 Speaker 1: some way, right like or maybe it's a failure of humanity. 671 00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:20,760 Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't know. I mean it depends 672 00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:23,440 Speaker 1: if you think about what TikTok wants, like as its 673 00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:27,520 Speaker 1: own entity, but not not the people, but the TikTok. 674 00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:31,840 Speaker 1: I feel like what it wants is growth. It wants 675 00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:35,720 Speaker 1: there to be this constant new content, this constant new material. 676 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:37,600 Speaker 1: And I got to a point where it's like, well, 677 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:42,200 Speaker 1: maybe that's not a service that I wish to engage 678 00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:44,239 Speaker 1: with anymore right now. I mean, if I'm not going 679 00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:46,640 Speaker 1: to be this rapid overturned stuff, if I'm not going 680 00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:50,279 Speaker 1: to constantly be like pushing the button creating drama for 681 00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:52,640 Speaker 1: good or for evil, and if I'm not really a 682 00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:56,520 Speaker 1: social media person and I'm instead a music person who 683 00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:59,800 Speaker 1: is for the time being using this platform because it 684 00:35:59,880 --> 00:36:02,279 Speaker 1: is fun, then when it stops being fun, when it 685 00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:04,640 Speaker 1: stops being productive, it got to be like a little 686 00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:07,960 Speaker 1: bit what am I doing here? Right? So yeah, I 687 00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:09,440 Speaker 1: don't know if that's a failure, that might just be 688 00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:13,080 Speaker 1: the design. Well no, but it's fascinating. I mean, you 689 00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:14,839 Speaker 1: are I mean, I don't know how old you are, 690 00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:16,359 Speaker 1: but I guess you and I are probably twenty years 691 00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:19,040 Speaker 1: apart in age. And like I feel like that's a 692 00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:23,600 Speaker 1: realization that to me feels like a because I'm maybe rude, 693 00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:26,439 Speaker 1: I don't like an old person realization where I feel 694 00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:28,480 Speaker 1: the same way like I spent like a lot of 695 00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:30,759 Speaker 1: my career, I mean in a very different way, but 696 00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:34,200 Speaker 1: like building you know, a kind of like conversation on 697 00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:36,960 Speaker 1: these like platforms where I mean Twitter is a good 698 00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:38,600 Speaker 1: example of all this ship that's going on Twitter right now. 699 00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:40,880 Speaker 1: It's like, you know, I spent like a lot of 700 00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:43,279 Speaker 1: my career building this like conversation with people, and now 701 00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:46,319 Speaker 1: I'm like, yeah, like that doesn't feel like healthier good 702 00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:48,279 Speaker 1: or productive for me personally, and and so I'm sort 703 00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:50,640 Speaker 1: of like I want to step back from it. But 704 00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:54,040 Speaker 1: like your person who presumably was raised on this, like 705 00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:57,360 Speaker 1: I mean, like you said, like my phone was a 706 00:36:57,440 --> 00:36:59,360 Speaker 1: part of every you know, sort of early memory or 707 00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:02,000 Speaker 1: sort of important memory when you were younger. So like, 708 00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:04,040 Speaker 1: it's weird that that both of us would arrive at 709 00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:05,719 Speaker 1: such a thing. I'm not I'm not saying it's the 710 00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:08,359 Speaker 1: same experience, but but it does say something I think 711 00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:12,920 Speaker 1: about the the failings of this stuff, like this particular 712 00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:16,640 Speaker 1: thing about you not being on TikTok and not engaging 713 00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:19,520 Speaker 1: with that stuff I was not planning on talking about 714 00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:21,600 Speaker 1: because I kind of didn't perceive it because when you're 715 00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:24,080 Speaker 1: not there, you're not there, right, It's not like you 716 00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:25,800 Speaker 1: put up a sign and you're like, oh, I'm no 717 00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:28,800 Speaker 1: longer on TikTok. But this is the other thing I 718 00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:29,920 Speaker 1: want to talk to you about, which is like you 719 00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:33,560 Speaker 1: haven't put out a lot of new music recently as 720 00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:36,440 Speaker 1: far as I know, So what's the next thing? Like 721 00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:40,399 Speaker 1: where do you go from here? Basically? Wow? Okay, where 722 00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:43,399 Speaker 1: to start with all of that? Let's um first of all, 723 00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:47,600 Speaker 1: real quick, I will just say I stocked you back 724 00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:49,320 Speaker 1: a little bit, just in so far as I listened 725 00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:52,160 Speaker 1: to the other episodes, And I think it's really interesting 726 00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:54,440 Speaker 1: that the other people that you've interviewed, some of them 727 00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:56,279 Speaker 1: are like kind of going through the same thing, but 728 00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:58,400 Speaker 1: they're going through with Twitter. And it's like for me 729 00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:01,080 Speaker 1: to watch from the sideline. I know really got into Twitter. 730 00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:03,000 Speaker 1: It was a little early for me and then a 731 00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:05,560 Speaker 1: little late for me, and it just never hits. So 732 00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:09,160 Speaker 1: to watch people be so dismayed at like the state 733 00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:11,239 Speaker 1: of Twitter right now is really fascinating as someone who 734 00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:14,040 Speaker 1: has no personal staking when we or the other really, 735 00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:16,560 Speaker 1: oh my god, you're so lucky. I mean, you're just 736 00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:19,640 Speaker 1: so lucky. Like I can't even it's the worst, shittiest 737 00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:22,520 Speaker 1: social network that sucked as from the beginning, and like 738 00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:25,160 Speaker 1: to have any allegiance to it, no, I mean it's 739 00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:29,360 Speaker 1: like truly was never good. And I'm so jealous of 740 00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:31,320 Speaker 1: anybody who was like yeah, I just that's not from me. 741 00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:37,160 Speaker 1: That's so it's funky, and I don't know all these things, 742 00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:42,919 Speaker 1: all these apps or whatever. It's like, yeah, it's super fun. 743 00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:45,440 Speaker 1: It's great to be on it. But the part that 744 00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:49,000 Speaker 1: makes it good is that it's social. It's the other people. 745 00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:51,480 Speaker 1: It's not that the computer has like the juice in 746 00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:53,960 Speaker 1: there that you want. It's like, actually the fact that 747 00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:57,279 Speaker 1: there's somebody, which for me made it easier to kind 748 00:38:57,280 --> 00:38:59,480 Speaker 1: of get off the Internet for a while. Um anyway, 749 00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:01,480 Speaker 1: so then I question of what am I doing now? 750 00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:04,080 Speaker 1: You're not going to go back to TikTok, right, like 751 00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:07,600 Speaker 1: you're not like I'm back. I would be. I would 752 00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:09,040 Speaker 1: be open to it, but I'm not going to do 753 00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:10,920 Speaker 1: it just because I don't know how to stop, you know, 754 00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:16,800 Speaker 1: right right, that's healthy. I would maybe in the future 755 00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:20,920 Speaker 1: do some more coordinated posting. I really enjoyed when I 756 00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:24,320 Speaker 1: used to go through my like song making production process. 757 00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:26,400 Speaker 1: I thought that was a fun thing to do into showcase. 758 00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:28,359 Speaker 1: So I might try to do some of those ones again, 759 00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:31,320 Speaker 1: just like little instructional videos. Well well let me not 760 00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:33,440 Speaker 1: not to interrupt, but like it, it becomes different right 761 00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:36,080 Speaker 1: when you are when you've got people now who are 762 00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:37,920 Speaker 1: following you, and I don't know what you're following is 763 00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:39,839 Speaker 1: like on TikTok, but people know who you are. There's 764 00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:42,640 Speaker 1: some segment of the audience there. It seems like some 765 00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:44,239 Speaker 1: of the original stuff on TikTok was like you were 766 00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:46,520 Speaker 1: just doing stuff because it was like you're experimenting and 767 00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:49,360 Speaker 1: trying things out and there was no pressure and no expectation. 768 00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:52,560 Speaker 1: But it's different when you're like everything you do or 769 00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:55,560 Speaker 1: or things that you do will be immediately sort of 770 00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:58,600 Speaker 1: judged or commented on or you know, share it or 771 00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:01,880 Speaker 1: whatever more widely. So it changes it, right, Yeah, it 772 00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:04,120 Speaker 1: does change it. Um, And I think you have to 773 00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:07,560 Speaker 1: decide if you're doing things to generate popularity or if 774 00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:10,759 Speaker 1: you're doing it kind of um regardless of that, and 775 00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:12,480 Speaker 1: both are fine, but you have to pick before you 776 00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:17,880 Speaker 1: do the thing because they're they're different. Okay, so now 777 00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:19,279 Speaker 1: what what are you What are you doing? Like are 778 00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:22,560 Speaker 1: you making more music? When like this is like by 779 00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:25,520 Speaker 1: the classic closure on a podcast like pertain about like 780 00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:29,319 Speaker 1: crazy shit like online discourse And now we're like I'm like, okay, 781 00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:31,279 Speaker 1: so when's the new album drop or whatever? But no, 782 00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:34,680 Speaker 1: I am curious, like are you working at in music? 783 00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:36,759 Speaker 1: Are you going to do a new record? Like what 784 00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:39,800 Speaker 1: is the future for you? Like, what do you thinking 785 00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:45,600 Speaker 1: about working on? Excited about? There's new music and there's 786 00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:50,880 Speaker 1: about an EP or album's worth that is kind of 787 00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:54,520 Speaker 1: in my style normally. And then what I really want 788 00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:56,440 Speaker 1: to do, and I've done this for a couple of them, 789 00:40:56,560 --> 00:40:59,200 Speaker 1: I think one or two is I want to do 790 00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:02,360 Speaker 1: another really small EP that's just a few, like fully 791 00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:06,080 Speaker 1: orchestral sounding versions of these songs that people would already know, 792 00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:08,880 Speaker 1: because I think that's fun. And I did it for 793 00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:12,360 Speaker 1: time in my life, which isn't a secret because I 794 00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:15,279 Speaker 1: already played the orchestral version on tour. But that one 795 00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:16,960 Speaker 1: was one that I did way back and it had 796 00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:21,560 Speaker 1: no words, and it was the backtrack for like video 797 00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:24,319 Speaker 1: I made. And then I went back and just used 798 00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:26,239 Speaker 1: the MIDI and like changed all the sounds and messed 799 00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:28,239 Speaker 1: with it and tinkered and tinkered and tinkered and made 800 00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:31,520 Speaker 1: words and now it's going to be like this insane 801 00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:35,480 Speaker 1: like string heavy orchestra sound. So I wanted to do 802 00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:38,759 Speaker 1: that with um with that song, and then I also 803 00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:40,879 Speaker 1: want to do it with Gross, which is another song 804 00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:43,040 Speaker 1: that people only know since I've played it on tour, 805 00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:47,560 Speaker 1: but it's a very like techy almost eighties with the strings, 806 00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:49,400 Speaker 1: but like a very beat boot song. And then the 807 00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:51,720 Speaker 1: new I want to do an orchestral version of that sometime. 808 00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:56,120 Speaker 1: But that's all just about grouping them. The short answer is, yes, 809 00:41:56,239 --> 00:42:00,400 Speaker 1: there will be a new album. Right. Are you touring 810 00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:04,040 Speaker 1: currently right now? Or you in between stuff? In between stuff, 811 00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:06,840 Speaker 1: but you can go and like you're playing like shows 812 00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:08,319 Speaker 1: with like a ton of people there right, I mean 813 00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:10,759 Speaker 1: they're like packed hous. I mean, I've seen some video 814 00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:14,000 Speaker 1: from it, but you've got fans who are going to 815 00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:17,400 Speaker 1: come out and like see that, which must be also surreal, 816 00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:20,680 Speaker 1: I guess, because you know it's like you've got online 817 00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:22,560 Speaker 1: people and then they don't seem real but they are 818 00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:27,200 Speaker 1: actually real. Yeah. I think there were a few milestones 819 00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:32,399 Speaker 1: like that that me and my team were like things 820 00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:34,640 Speaker 1: where it's like you can't guess how it's going to 821 00:42:34,719 --> 00:42:38,160 Speaker 1: go until it goes. And one of those was can 822 00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:41,440 Speaker 1: she make it through a show live? Which had not 823 00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:44,840 Speaker 1: been attempted before I started doing that, And then it 824 00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:48,720 Speaker 1: was interesting yeah, and then it was will people actually 825 00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:50,840 Speaker 1: show up in real life versus an internet thing? And 826 00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:54,399 Speaker 1: both of those, we were like pleasantly surprised. I've also 827 00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:58,279 Speaker 1: been shocked and surprised by the fact that, like you 828 00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:00,520 Speaker 1: could do things on the Internet and then go, oh, 829 00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:02,759 Speaker 1: I'm going to be here, I'm doing this, and then 830 00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:04,680 Speaker 1: people will just like show up and there's like human 831 00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:07,680 Speaker 1: beings who you're like, you're this avatar but now you're 832 00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:10,080 Speaker 1: a real person. But I mean, I've seen some videos 833 00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:12,600 Speaker 1: of you know, you're playing rooms full of people like 834 00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:15,200 Speaker 1: singing the lyrics, like singing along with the lyricy of 835 00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:19,200 Speaker 1: your songs, which is I mean, kind of incredible no 836 00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:22,400 Speaker 1: matter who you are. But do you like Tori? Do 837 00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:25,800 Speaker 1: you like that? I did like that. I do. I 838 00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:28,520 Speaker 1: do like playing live, which I did not expect to. Um. 839 00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:30,160 Speaker 1: I thought that it was going to not be my 840 00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:35,920 Speaker 1: thing because, as you can probably tell, as a producer 841 00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:39,400 Speaker 1: type yourself, like, I very much enjoy the producer angle, 842 00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:41,320 Speaker 1: and I like to just sit on my little computer 843 00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:44,919 Speaker 1: and tinker and listen to the same three seconds again 844 00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:48,160 Speaker 1: and again for like four consecutive hours until I'm insane. 845 00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:51,520 Speaker 1: And I did not expect to enjoy the performance aspect, 846 00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:53,959 Speaker 1: but I did. I thought it was very fun. People 847 00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:56,719 Speaker 1: have always been very nice. So I think I've kept 848 00:43:56,760 --> 00:43:58,120 Speaker 1: you on this long enough. I just want to say, 849 00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:00,960 Speaker 1: like I found this conversation to be complete, fascinating and 850 00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:04,319 Speaker 1: so surprising, like we went to places that I did 851 00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:07,640 Speaker 1: not expect, and I still have, frankly, many more questions. 852 00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:11,000 Speaker 1: So when you are ready, when you really are releasing 853 00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:12,759 Speaker 1: new music and going out on tour again, like you 854 00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:14,920 Speaker 1: have to come back. And we have talked more about 855 00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:18,040 Speaker 1: not only your music, which I truly do love, but 856 00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:20,480 Speaker 1: also whether you're back on TikTok, which to me is 857 00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:24,080 Speaker 1: going to be a very important topic to to to revisit. 858 00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:26,239 Speaker 1: So anyhow, thank you so much for doing this. I 859 00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:28,800 Speaker 1: really appreciate and I really enjoyed the conversation. Thank you 860 00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:30,600 Speaker 1: very much for having me. I will be happy to 861 00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:32,920 Speaker 1: come back sometime in the name of public good. They 862 00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:36,360 Speaker 1: taught me everything just like a daddy should. And you 863 00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:39,839 Speaker 1: were beautiful and vulnerable and power and success. God damn, 864 00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:41,640 Speaker 1: I felt for you. You are flamed the words, your 865 00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:44,560 Speaker 1: tunnels and your tech. I studied code because I wanted 866 00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:47,120 Speaker 1: to do something great like you. And the real tragedy 867 00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:49,960 Speaker 1: is half of it was true. But we've been fucking 868 00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:53,080 Speaker 1: being were elatest whereas flawed as any church in this 869 00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:56,040 Speaker 1: boom red West Coast Dogma has a higher fucking that word. 870 00:44:56,120 --> 00:44:58,640 Speaker 1: I've been the apple because I trusted you. It's haste 871 00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:02,759 Speaker 1: like Thomas mall lose her for post and insane and 872 00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:12,880 Speaker 1: I hope somedays Salmer's rides are fucking trained. Well, that 873 00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:15,799 Speaker 1: was a great conversation. I knew I say that a lot. 874 00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:18,840 Speaker 1: I'm like, that was great, but this one. All the 875 00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:21,200 Speaker 1: other ones I was lying, and this one I really 876 00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:24,279 Speaker 1: mean that this is true. It's fascinating just to see 877 00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:26,719 Speaker 1: a totally different perspective on being online. And I love 878 00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:30,120 Speaker 1: the fact that, you know, she basically was like people 879 00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:33,080 Speaker 1: who are on Twitter are sad and horrible and losers 880 00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:34,680 Speaker 1: and I hate them. No, she didn't say that, but 881 00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:38,040 Speaker 1: but it interest you see, like if your entire worldview 882 00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:40,239 Speaker 1: isn't like you know, I'm like a journalist who's been 883 00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:42,520 Speaker 1: on Twitter from the get go, so I'm like, oh, 884 00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:45,239 Speaker 1: that's you know, very important, or everybody's on it. He's 885 00:45:45,239 --> 00:45:46,839 Speaker 1: talking about It's like, yeah, there's just like it doesn't 886 00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:48,960 Speaker 1: matter to a lot of people, which is I think 887 00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:51,200 Speaker 1: what we all know and believe. But but to to 888 00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:56,680 Speaker 1: see how easily the experience. The bad experiences of any 889 00:45:56,760 --> 00:45:59,320 Speaker 1: social network are mirrored on even the newest social network 890 00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:02,120 Speaker 1: that everybody loves, which is TikTok. I guess, be real, 891 00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:04,759 Speaker 1: eventually somebody will learn how to harass and be real 892 00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:07,719 Speaker 1: that that will be that'll be that. But you know, 893 00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:12,520 Speaker 1: it's just fascinating to see the gap in experience in 894 00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:14,959 Speaker 1: an age and all that, but then the same sort 895 00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:20,480 Speaker 1: of outcome through social media. And I would say, you know, 896 00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:26,840 Speaker 1: it's interesting to me to hear an artist's experience because 897 00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:29,839 Speaker 1: I think it's healthy in a way to go, wait 898 00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:33,040 Speaker 1: a second, Like I'm not here for to interact with 899 00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:35,400 Speaker 1: people on social media. I'm here to make something. And 900 00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:37,040 Speaker 1: if like this is a bad place to make it, 901 00:46:37,160 --> 00:46:40,200 Speaker 1: or it's unwelcoming or it is unsustainable in some way, 902 00:46:40,239 --> 00:46:43,200 Speaker 1: then like maybe I just shouldn't be making it here 903 00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:45,480 Speaker 1: or worrying about like the discourse here. And I think 904 00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:48,439 Speaker 1: that's important. I think it's a sign of of things 905 00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:49,800 Speaker 1: to come. I think we've talked a lot on the 906 00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:52,759 Speaker 1: show about this, but I feel like there is a 907 00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:54,360 Speaker 1: I don't want to call it a movement, but I 908 00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:57,319 Speaker 1: think there is a change in like humanity happening. There 909 00:46:57,400 --> 00:46:59,480 Speaker 1: is some part of us that's kind of going, wait, 910 00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:01,520 Speaker 1: I don't have to be here. I don't have to 911 00:47:01,560 --> 00:47:04,359 Speaker 1: do this. I don't have to respond to the things 912 00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:06,360 Speaker 1: that I think or thought I had to respond to. 913 00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:09,719 Speaker 1: I don't have to be the person that these services 914 00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:13,840 Speaker 1: tell me I should be. It's a profoundly important step 915 00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:17,440 Speaker 1: in the evolution of how we deal with each other 916 00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:22,960 Speaker 1: in a like online society. More importantly than anything else 917 00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:24,600 Speaker 1: that we talked about is that she's going to be 918 00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:26,320 Speaker 1: making some new music, and I'm gonna be able to 919 00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:30,840 Speaker 1: download and like some new tunes on the streaming service 920 00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:33,680 Speaker 1: of my choice. I assume it's very hard for me 921 00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:35,600 Speaker 1: to get excited about new music. I feel like I've 922 00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:38,440 Speaker 1: listened to a lot of music in my life, and 923 00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:41,080 Speaker 1: making music forced me to listen, you know, I forced 924 00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:43,360 Speaker 1: myself to listen to a lot of stuff both weird 925 00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:46,680 Speaker 1: and also very popular, and so it's hard. I have like, 926 00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:50,919 Speaker 1: very um, what is the fifty Shades of Gray meme? 927 00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:55,320 Speaker 1: He's like, I have very unconventional desires or something like. 928 00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:57,200 Speaker 1: I feel like this part of me that is like 929 00:47:57,239 --> 00:48:00,200 Speaker 1: I have very unconventional desires when it comes to music. Again, 930 00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:01,960 Speaker 1: then there's part of me that's like I have extremely 931 00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:06,000 Speaker 1: conventional desires, right like sort of high and low. So 932 00:48:06,080 --> 00:48:09,320 Speaker 1: I don't find myself getting hooked by a particular artist 933 00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:11,200 Speaker 1: very often, like I like one thing and then go 934 00:48:11,640 --> 00:48:13,640 Speaker 1: the rest of their stuff is okay, Or there's a 935 00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:15,440 Speaker 1: couple of tracks there that I'm interested in, but it 936 00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:17,880 Speaker 1: doesn't really do it for me. So here's something like 937 00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:23,960 Speaker 1: one offs like DJ Seinfeld, Godford, I mentioned Fred again, 938 00:48:24,080 --> 00:48:26,680 Speaker 1: Fred Again. I definitely like a little bit more of 939 00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:32,200 Speaker 1: Salt s A U l T. This is a band, 940 00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:38,720 Speaker 1: big deal, Friars Art school girlfriend Barbara and Ernie, Big Thief, 941 00:48:39,239 --> 00:48:41,879 Speaker 1: Girl in Red. I love War Paint War Pain has 942 00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:45,400 Speaker 1: become a big favorite this year. Who Are Stranger? A 943 00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:49,040 Speaker 1: lot of Polital record, which is like a Billy Joel record, 944 00:48:49,200 --> 00:49:02,040 Speaker 1: but it's like I don't know, well, awkward one