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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 2: To the trial and Delphi, two beautiful little girls found dead,

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Speaker 2: the ground beneath them.

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Speaker 1: Saturated in blood.

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Speaker 2: As a digital expert and a medical examiner take the stand,

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Speaker 2: we also learned the suspect confesses over sixty one times

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Speaker 2: to the little girl's murders, to the point his wife

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Speaker 2: says on the phone, stop talking. I'm Nancy Grace. This

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Speaker 2: is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. Now

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Speaker 2: we know why the girls' clothing was soaked.

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Speaker 3: There were about three different areas where the clothing was

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Speaker 3: in the creek. All of the clothing that was collected

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Speaker 3: from the creek was inside out. The gray hoodie that

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Speaker 3: you see Abbey wearing there was found submerged in the creek.

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Speaker 3: Libby was completely nude, and Abby was wearing Libby's jeans

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Speaker 3: and Puddy along with a gray sports fraud that we

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Speaker 3: believe belonged to Abby.

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Speaker 4: Forensic pathologist doctor Roland Core performed autopsies on Libby and Abby.

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Speaker 4: He did Abby's autopsy first and said she suffered one large,

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Speaker 4: gaping wound in the neck. It was a one inch deep,

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Speaker 4: three inch long incision wound of her neck. Abby also

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Speaker 4: had a faint mark under her mouth, which doctor Corr

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Speaker 4: said could be from dunct tape or cloth, but she

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Speaker 4: didn't show any signs of restrained wounds. She also showed

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Speaker 4: no sign of blunt force trauma. Doctor Corr also said

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Speaker 4: that even though a rape kit showed no overt injury pattern,

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Speaker 4: that it doesn't mean that sexual contact did not occur.

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Speaker 2: Believe it or not, online, all sorts of bizarre conspiracy

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Speaker 2: theories are sprouting. What we learned in court, A rape

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Speaker 2: kit was performed and apparently no sex tech could be

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Speaker 2: proven from what was found on the bodies.

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Speaker 1: Then why were the girls naked?

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Speaker 2: Why were they forced a strip out in the middle

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Speaker 2: of nowhere in that cold temperature. So much happening in

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Speaker 2: the courtroom, and we are live at the courthouse. Joining

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Speaker 2: me right now investigative reporter and court TV documentary producer

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Speaker 2: Barbara McDonald. She is the co host and producer of

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Speaker 2: an incredible podcast, Down the Heel Podcast. Barbara, Thank you

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Speaker 2: for being with us.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 2: What we are learning is the medical examiner performed one autopsy.

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Speaker 2: Of course, then the next we are learning that there

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Speaker 2: is no evidence on the bodies to suggest a sex assault.

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Speaker 2: Of course, the girls were stripped naked, so I'm not

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Speaker 2: sure where that's going. I don't need sperm or DNA

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Speaker 2: to tell me that they were naked and murdered for

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Speaker 2: a sexual purpose, but there was also a lot of

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Speaker 2: digital information. I'll start first with the autopsies.

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Speaker 5: Listen, Doctor Rowland Corer performed Libby Germans autopsy. After completing

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Speaker 5: Abby Williams autopsy, doctor Corr notes that Libby had anywhere

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Speaker 5: from three to five incision wounds on the right side

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Speaker 5: of her neck, with the longest being about three and

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Speaker 5: a half inches. Libby also shows no sign of overt

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Speaker 5: sexual trauma or defensive wounds. Doctor Corr estimated Abby and

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Speaker 5: Libby died about forty one hours before the autopsy.

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Speaker 2: To Barbara McDonald, tell me first the jury's reaction during

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Speaker 2: the medical examiner's testimony.

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Speaker 3: The jury is paying very very close attention. They are

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Speaker 3: able to take notes, They have notebooks. They also get

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Speaker 3: copies of most of the exhibits that are shown in

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Speaker 3: court and have a file folder at their chairs where

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Speaker 3: they're able to keep track of all of that information.

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Speaker 3: As documents are handed to them. I do notice they

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Speaker 3: look them over, they make notes. They make notes during

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Speaker 3: the testimony there's one jur in particular who's sitting in

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Speaker 3: chair number twelve, and he has taken a lot of

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Speaker 3: notes throughout this entire trial. I also see when he

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Speaker 3: is not taking notes that he is studying the families

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Speaker 3: of the victims, the family of the defendant as well

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Speaker 3: as the defendant in both sets of attorneys. He's paying

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Speaker 3: very close attention.

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Speaker 2: Nancy to fellow debate joining US high profile lawyer and

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Speaker 2: LA County public defender. What does that mean? It means

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Speaker 2: he spends his life in the courtroom just like a prosecutor.

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Speaker 2: But on the other side debay, you know, and a

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Speaker 2: lot of jurisdictions judges will not let gurrors take notes.

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Speaker 2: Believe it or not, I find that antiquated, but I

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Speaker 2: understand what the judges are thinking.

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Speaker 1: They don't want the gurrors to rely on their notes.

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Speaker 2: They want them to rely on their collective memory as

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Speaker 2: to the testimony and evidence.

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Speaker 1: And also debay.

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Speaker 2: One of the reasonings behind that, to which I disagree,

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Speaker 2: by the way, But another reasoning is say number twelve

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Speaker 2: takes the best notes. I guess when you were in

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Speaker 2: law school, you're in a study group, and whoever had

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Speaker 2: the best notes became the authority whether they were or

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Speaker 2: they were not, because everybody passed around notes. Not me,

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Speaker 2: of course, but a bit you did. Long story short,

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Speaker 2: you don't want the jury to rely on number twelve,

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Speaker 2: what if he's wrong. They are to rely on their

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Speaker 2: collective memories as to the testimony and evidence. But I

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Speaker 2: find it very interesting that jural number twelve, who is

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Speaker 2: taking copious notes, continues to look over at the victims'

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Speaker 2: families jump in, well, yeah.

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Speaker 6: Of course they are, because when you really think about it,

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Speaker 6: the demeanor of everybody in court has an emotional impact

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Speaker 6: on the jury. What I'd like to know is if

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Speaker 6: Richard Allen's family is there, because to be fair to him,

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Speaker 6: they should be looking at the emotional impact that the

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Speaker 6: false allegations against him are having on the family. So

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Speaker 6: it works both ways. If you only focus on the

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Speaker 6: victim's family, then I'm not sure that that jury is

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Speaker 6: necessarily be fair. And one other quick comment. I think

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Speaker 6: the theory behind not allowing note taking by the jurors

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Speaker 6: is they don't feel you're going to be paying attention

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Speaker 6: to the evidence if you've got your head down writing

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Speaker 6: notes into a stenopad. I agree with you. It's antiquated.

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Speaker 6: It's absurd and frankly, why couldn't they all put their

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Speaker 6: collective notes together when they're deliberating and share their thoughts.

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Speaker 6: And if there is a dispute, you can always go

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Speaker 6: back into court for readback.

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Speaker 2: And I can assure everyone that the grrs, even though

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Speaker 2: nobody's told me this, are not allowed to take their

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Speaker 2: notes or the physical exhibits of which they have copies

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Speaker 2: with them at the end of the day to study

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Speaker 2: when they are alone at night. They cannot discuss this

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Speaker 2: or begin deliberations in any form until all the evidence

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Speaker 2: is in Back to Barbara McDonald, we are live at

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Speaker 2: the courthouse bringing you the very latest. So I understand

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Speaker 2: the medical examiner performed Abby's autopsy first, then Libby's. Now

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Speaker 2: Libby was found nude. Abby was found dressed in the

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Speaker 2: wrong clothes, in some of Libby's clothes.

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Speaker 1: How do you see the difference in the wounds?

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Speaker 2: And I want Scott Morgan, Professor forensics, death investigator, and

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Speaker 2: doctor Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, to listen carefully right now to

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Speaker 2: Barbara McDonald. I've got a lot of questions which only the.

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Speaker 1: Two of you can answer. What do you hear, Barbara.

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Speaker 3: We not only saw the images of these wounds, some

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Speaker 3: very close up images of the wounds, but listen to

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Speaker 3: that forensic pathologist, doctor Roland Core for the better part

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Speaker 3: of the day testifying, and the wounds to Libby were

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Speaker 3: much more brutal, rough they were larger, they went more

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Speaker 3: in an up and down pattern on her neck, whereas

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Speaker 3: Libby or Abby rather just had the one cut and

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Speaker 3: it was a bit cleaner. It was described as a

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Speaker 3: gape wound, but there were no other injuries around that.

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Speaker 3: Libby did have some other injuries. She even had a

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Speaker 3: cut on her right shoulder that they described as minor,

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Speaker 3: but it didn't look minor to me. It looked like

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Speaker 3: if you were even sustained that cut, that it would

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Speaker 3: have bled quite a bit and probably been painful. They

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Speaker 3: didn't offer any sort of explanation about what happened to

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Speaker 3: cause that wound or why the killer would have put

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Speaker 3: a wound there. It definitely was not a life threatening

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Speaker 3: wound at all.

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Speaker 2: One thing I heard in the testimony, Barbara, is that

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Speaker 2: one of the girls hands indicated well they were bloody,

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Speaker 2: and from the position of the body it appeared as

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Speaker 2: if she had tried.

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Speaker 1: To stop.

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Speaker 2: The blood flow, try to stem the flow of blood

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Speaker 2: from her neck.

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Speaker 3: One of the things that doctor Corr testified to is

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Speaker 3: that he believes that both girls would have lived for

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Speaker 3: about five to ten minutes following the infliction of these injuries,

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Speaker 3: that at some point have become unconscious from the blood

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Speaker 3: loss before they actually died. But that, yes, he said

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Speaker 3: that the blood on Libby's hands was evidence to him

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Speaker 3: that she had put her hands at her throat to

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Speaker 3: try to keep that keep the blood in. That that's

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Speaker 3: a natural reaction that you would want to cover that

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Speaker 3: wound and apply pressure as much as you could.

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Speaker 2: So what you're telling me, Barbara McDonald is the girls

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Speaker 2: did not have a quick death.

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Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 2: To you, Jesseph Scott Morton, from what we hear from

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Speaker 2: the witness stand that Libby, the child that was left nude,

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Speaker 2: suffered much worse.

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Speaker 1: Of course, they're all horrible.

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Speaker 2: All the wounds are horrible to both girls, but Libby's

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Speaker 2: wounds seem to be worse. And we know because there

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Speaker 2: was swelling to one of the girl's brains, that they

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Speaker 2: survived long enough to lie there on their backs, one naked,

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Speaker 2: one had been naked, soaking wet from being forced through

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Speaker 2: that creek, the ground saturating in blood beneath them.

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Speaker 1: They laid there and they looked up at the sky.

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Speaker 2: The last face they saw was whoever killed them. I

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Speaker 2: want to hear your analysis because another thing that came

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Speaker 2: up in court was that the medical examiner could not

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Speaker 2: tell whether the purp was left handed or right handed.

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Speaker 2: That's total bs because you can tell from a wound,

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Speaker 2: for instance, which side is deeper.

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Speaker 1: And then it trails off.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know why they're saying that, but

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Speaker 2: first your analysis to the wounds on Libby and Abby,

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Speaker 2: and this is critical, Joe Scott.

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Speaker 7: I find it interesting that Libby has got what could

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Speaker 7: be termed as multiple injuries to her neck. Let's keep

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Speaker 7: in mind Libby was an athlete. She had played softball

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Speaker 7: and was very active. Abby is described as more passive.

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Speaker 7: I think that Libby resisted probably now there's no evidence

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Speaker 7: of defensive wounds per se. However, she does have this

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Speaker 7: and I didn't know this until Barbara had mentioned it.

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Speaker 7: This rather interesting injury that she has to the shoulder.

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Speaker 7: I thought, you know, particularly, I was wondering, is this

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Speaker 7: a post mortem? Injury because you know, Barbara said something

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Speaker 7: interesting per her view of this image. She said, there

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Speaker 7: wasn't blood, but it looked like something that had bled

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Speaker 7: or should have bled. And they didn't offer much more

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Speaker 7: of an explanation. But back to the wounds in the neck,

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Speaker 7: you've gotten multiple multiple cuts that are here, probably three

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Speaker 7: to five, and so they're kind of communicating in that area.

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Speaker 7: It would give you an indication that either he was

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Speaker 7: perhaps not feeling that he was hitting the correct depth

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Speaker 7: as he is taking this blade and drawing it across

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Speaker 7: her neck, or he was punishing her in some way.

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Speaker 7: Let's keep in mind, Nancy, leave me someone that's nude here.

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Speaker 7: I have always held that I felt as though that

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Speaker 7: she was probably targeted in some way, and this just

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Speaker 7: goes to that point.

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Speaker 2: I think even further, Well, what do you here to

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Speaker 2: say about it being argued in court that it cannot

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Speaker 2: be determined if the part was left or right handed.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, you make a good point, because if you could

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Speaker 7: just keep me up just for a second, if you

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Speaker 7: begin to think about, and I think this is what

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Speaker 7: you're getting at, if you have a right handed individual

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Speaker 7: that's with building a knife from the rear from the rear. Okay,

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Speaker 7: that cut you would think is probably going to be higher.

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Speaker 7: The blade is going to be drug And this is

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Speaker 7: just this is just the mechanics of how we move

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Speaker 7: as a blade is being drug. It starts off high

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Speaker 7: and then like you said, after it crosses the center

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Speaker 7: point of the neck, it'll generally trail off and that

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Speaker 7: gives you an indication there's a lack of pressure at

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Speaker 7: the end. Generally, the starting of this is going to

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Speaker 7: have more pressure if the individual is right hand dependent

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Speaker 7: that the depth here, particularly if it's on this side

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Speaker 7: of the neck, is going to give you an indication

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Speaker 7: of handedness. But many times forensic pathologists are hesitant to

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Speaker 7: make this assessment and really hang their hat on it

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Speaker 7: because it's not necessarily quantitative science. It's kind of a

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Speaker 7: qualitative opinion.

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Speaker 1: Well, it makes sense to me, like two and two

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Speaker 1: equals four. I understand that right.

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Speaker 2: And when you slash, you have naturally and everybody can

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Speaker 2: try this at home. When you slash something like you're

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Speaker 2: breaking into a box, your momentum is at the beginning

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Speaker 2: when you start that slash and then you pull back.

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Speaker 1: Think of opening up a FedEx or ups.

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Speaker 2: Yes, slash and pull back right, your velocity is stronger

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Speaker 2: at the beginning.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, and this subject would have had if it is him.

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Speaker 7: You know he worked with a box cutter regularly. We've

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Speaker 7: heard this term box cutter over and over again. I

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Speaker 7: think that's something interesting to explore here. But Nancy, you're

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Speaker 7: doing I got to tell you, I don't necessarily you

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Speaker 7: made a very quick slashing movement. I don't know that

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Speaker 7: it was quick. It may have been.

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Speaker 2: Drawn out joining me Dodger Bethany Marshall, Right, now it's

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Speaker 2: like Oana is joining us from.

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Speaker 1: Beverly Hills, Doctor Bethany.

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Speaker 2: A lot of questions and if you could be concise

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Speaker 2: on this one girl obviously, as Joscott Morgan said, the

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Speaker 2: main target both of them, a brutally murder, both of

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Speaker 2: them stripped. What does it say to you and why

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Speaker 2: the half hearted effort of redressing one girl and not

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Speaker 2: the other?

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Speaker 8: Well, I think there this was a sexually motivated crime.

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Speaker 8: There was a lot of practicing in anticipation of the crime,

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Speaker 8: thinking about how he would kill the girls. So perhaps

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Speaker 8: two different mos on each girl, redressing them because you

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Speaker 8: wanted to come back and have sex with them. This

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Speaker 8: is what them was that the infliction of cruelty caused

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Speaker 8: the sexual excitement coming back was to take advantage of

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Speaker 8: the girls, but he wasn't able to do that, but

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Speaker 8: he had to dress them to preserve the bodies.

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Speaker 7: I think that for each item that's there, there's a

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Speaker 7: potential he was throwing these items in front of these children.

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Speaker 8: I can imagine these Portalle girls screaming and crying and just.

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Speaker 7: So distract You're watching these young girls being humiliated relative

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Speaker 7: to exposure of their bodies to this creepy guy.

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Speaker 9: To degrade, to.

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Speaker 8: Humiliate, and to force them into sexual submission.

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Speaker 7: How menacing. You're going to push these girls to do

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Speaker 7: whatever you want them to do, and then afterwards, afterwards,

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Speaker 7: you're going to redress bodies.

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Speaker 2: Joining us at the courthouse, Barbara McDonald, core TV documentary producer,

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Speaker 2: co host of Down the Hill podcast, Barbara, I want

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Speaker 2: to focus very quickly on what I consider to be

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Speaker 2: very very powerful evidence, and that is the digital pings

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Speaker 2: and geographic pinpoints.

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Speaker 1: Of the girls' phones.

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Speaker 2: And also what we're hearing, and this is very significant,

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Speaker 2: is that these phones can be tracked altitudinally. In other words,

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Speaker 2: as the girls go down the heel, you can see

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Speaker 2: an altitudinal change in the pinging information, and I'm very curious.

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Speaker 2: I want everyone to hear what we're hearing in the courtroom.

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Speaker 2: And I'm wondering about the defendant, Allan's phone because remember

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Speaker 2: in Alex Murdog's trial, which is a great example of this,

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Speaker 2: that's why keep using it. His phone travels with his

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Speaker 2: dead wife's Maggie's phone briefly before her phone is thrown

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Speaker 2: out of the window, and the traveling together is very

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Speaker 2: very probative. So, first of all, if you could explain

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Speaker 2: the crux of the digital information regarding the girls phones

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Speaker 2: and what if anything, we know about the suspects phone.

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Speaker 3: So we know from the digital evidence the last movement

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Speaker 3: of Libby's phone was about two point thirty two pm

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Speaker 3: on the thirteenth, and they were approached on the bridge.

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Speaker 3: That video that she made happened at two thirteen pm.

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Speaker 3: So it certainly sounds like what they're implying with this

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Speaker 3: evidence is that by the time two thirty two hits

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Speaker 3: that phone is at the crime scene, it no longer moved.

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Speaker 3: We also heard that Richard Allen had twenty three devices

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Speaker 3: that were collected in that search of his home. None

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Speaker 3: of them were the phone that he was carrying back

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Speaker 3: in twenty seventeen. We know that because when he gave

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Speaker 3: that first statement to law enforcement days after the murders,

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Speaker 3: they wrote down the unique idea of the phone that

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Speaker 3: he was carrying at the time. That device was not found,

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Speaker 3: they said, in the devices that were recovered. Though there

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Speaker 3: were searches about the case, but they don't know who

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Speaker 3: made those searches.

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Speaker 2: Nancy question, So you're telling me the device that Alan

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Speaker 2: carried in twenty seventeen disappeared.

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Speaker 1: It was not found. Did he give any explanation about

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Speaker 1: where a cell phone is?

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Speaker 10: No?

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Speaker 2: Okay, so his cell phone physically is gone, but can

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Speaker 2: it still be pained.

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Speaker 3: They have not said whether they were able to retrieve

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Speaker 3: any data through his phone provider or anything like that.

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Speaker 3: I don't know if other witnesses are going to come

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Speaker 3: in that we'll talk about that part of the investigation.

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Speaker 3: The gentleman who was on the stand yesterday, this first

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Speaker 3: Sergeant Christopher Cecil, did say that over the course of

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Speaker 3: these years since this murder happened, every time there's new

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Speaker 3: technology or a software update in any of the programs

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Speaker 3: they use, they go back and relook at this information.

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Speaker 3: See if they can uncover more data.

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Speaker 2: Isn't it true that an expert stated there is no

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Speaker 2: indication that Libby's phone was ever turned off? Correct?

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Speaker 1: So what does that mean to you?

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Speaker 3: Barbara McDonald, It's interesting the phone was found at the

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Speaker 3: crime scene. The defense is certainly making the argument that

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Speaker 3: the girls and that phone left the scene sometime on

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Speaker 3: the thirteenth and were brought back the following day. What

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Speaker 3: this Apple health data shows is that that phone did

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Speaker 3: not move once it got to that crime scene about

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Speaker 3: two point thirty two pm. It did not move after that.

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Speaker 3: I suppose it's entirely possible that the girls left the scene,

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Speaker 3: if that is something the defense can prove, but the

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Speaker 3: phone seems to have stayed there.

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Speaker 1: But he could not.

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Speaker 3: There were a lot of questions that even the jurors

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Speaker 3: asked him that he did not have answers for. And

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Speaker 3: he does not know when Libby's phone lost power. That

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Speaker 3: is information that the jury will not ever have because

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Speaker 3: they can't determine that.

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Speaker 1: Hold on.

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Speaker 2: What about are you saying the Apple phone or the

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Speaker 2: Apple watt never left the scene.

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Speaker 3: There was only one device found at the scene, and

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Speaker 3: it was Libby's iPhone six.

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Speaker 1: S okay and okay.

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Speaker 2: So when we're hearing about the help, the help app,

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Speaker 2: it's not a wat, it's just the app on the phone.

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Speaker 1: It's that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's when you open up your iPhone and it

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Speaker 3: records your steps and your movements and all of that.

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Speaker 3: They're using that information from Libby's iPhone.

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Speaker 1: Let me follow up with Joe Scott Morgan.

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Speaker 2: Joe Scott, the earth around the girls was completely saturated

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Speaker 2: with blood, and that tells me that is the location

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Speaker 2: of the murders. I mean, I don't know how they're

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Speaker 2: going to spin out. The cell phone going quiet and

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Speaker 2: dead and then suddenly connecting to a cell phone tower

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Speaker 2: and all of the earlier messages come in. I mean

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Speaker 2: the messages were coming in from the relatives going hey,

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Speaker 2: text me, now where are you?

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Speaker 1: And those are from hours and hours before.

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Speaker 2: To me, as a layperson, as it relates to digital data,

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Speaker 2: it means that that is when the phone made that

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Speaker 2: connection to a cell tower. It happens all the time

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Speaker 2: when suddenly you connect and you get a torrent of texts.

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Speaker 2: That's not that hard for me to understand. But the blood,

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Speaker 2: the blood satur the earth tells me that is where

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Speaker 2: the girls were killed.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, it does, and there's you know, these are to

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Speaker 7: say the very least, these are catastrophic injuries and this

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Speaker 7: is not something that would that would facilitate them moving

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Speaker 7: anywhere else. They were killed in that spot. They came

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Speaker 7: to rest there, Nancy.

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Speaker 1: To Barbara McDonald, one of the jurors.

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Speaker 2: Well, they asked a lot of questions and they passed

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Speaker 2: the questions, I guess to the bailiff, and then the

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Speaker 2: judge ultimately gets the questions, and the judge asked those

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Speaker 2: questions on behalf of the jury. One of the questions

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Speaker 2: which I found very interesting is was the earth under

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Speaker 2: the leaves under one of the girls disturbed?

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Speaker 1: Tell me about that jurar question?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And I forget exactly which witness that was that

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Speaker 3: they were talking to. I believe it was the lead

395
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Speaker 3: crime scene investigator of brian Ola High and he testified

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Speaker 3: that when they removed the bodies that there was nothing

397
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Speaker 3: underneath that had been disturbed. The leaves were all in place,

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Speaker 3: there were no areas of exposed dirt, whereas away from

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Speaker 3: the bodies there were areas where it looked like the

400
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Speaker 3: leaves had been moved and the dirt was exposed. He

401
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Speaker 3: didn't really offer an explanation about why those weren't disturbed

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Speaker 3: other than that the girls did not move once they

403
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Speaker 3: were in those positions.

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Speaker 1: Well, that makes perfect sense, Borba McDonald. But what do

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Speaker 1: you believe the juror is getting at the jurors.

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Speaker 3: Some of the questions have been very easy to understand

407
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Speaker 3: from them, and some of them have been a little

408
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Speaker 3: bit more perplexing. It's hard to tell exactly what the

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Speaker 3: mindset of that juror is, but the jurors are paying

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Speaker 3: very close attention and when they ask questions, they are

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Speaker 3: very very specific. The other thing that's very differ difficult

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Speaker 3: to tell is which juror is asking which question because

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Speaker 3: at the end of testimony, once both sides of attorneys

414
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Speaker 3: are done, the jurors simply submit their questions on a

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00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:13,760
Speaker 3: piece of paper to the judge. The judge meets with

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Speaker 3: the attorneys behind a monitor and plays static in the

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Speaker 3: court so we can't hear their conversation, and then she

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Speaker 3: comes out and reads it and she does not identify

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Speaker 3: which juror is asking the question, whether it's one dur

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Speaker 3: or multiple jurors for those questions.

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Speaker 2: Right, because the lawyers have to agree for the question

422
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Speaker 2: to be asked. What are some of the other questions

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Speaker 2: that you've heard in the court room, Barbara.

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Speaker 3: One thing that was really interesting yesterday we heard that

425
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Speaker 3: the Snapchat was posted by Libby at two o seven

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Speaker 3: showing Abby on the bridge. That image was not found

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Speaker 3: on Libby's device. It was not in her Snapchat that's

428
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Speaker 3: the image. It was not found on her Snapchat account.

429
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Speaker 3: It was not found in her phone camera. Role they

430
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Speaker 3: looked for it, they could not fumage anywhere. He had

431
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:07,000
Speaker 3: absolutely no explanation about that. The defense tried to ask

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Speaker 3: him about a cash, an encrypted cash that Snapchat keeps

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Speaker 3: track of of some sort of files, and he wasn't

434
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:19,439
Speaker 3: too familiar with that. The jurors had a lot of

435
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Speaker 3: questions though out Snapchat and whether somebody could have accessed

436
00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:28,320
Speaker 3: her account from another device and somehow deleted that image,

437
00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:31,479
Speaker 3: but he was not able to offer any kind of

438
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Speaker 3: explanation for why that image was not on her phone.

439
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Speaker 3: She had taken about four pictures and uploaded those to

440
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Speaker 3: Snapchat in the forty five minutes before the murders, and

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Speaker 3: all of those other images were there. It's just that

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Speaker 3: one image of Abby that's missing, and we have no idea.

443
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:52,560
Speaker 1: Why so, did the.

444
00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:56,560
Speaker 2: Jerry seem to be absorbing all of the cell phone data,

445
00:25:56,680 --> 00:26:03,439
Speaker 2: the digital data, and did anyone make any show a

446
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:08,399
Speaker 2: facial expression when we learned that after twenty three devices

447
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:12,720
Speaker 2: are taken from the defendant sees pursuing the search warrant,

448
00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:16,879
Speaker 2: one's missing, and it happens to me the cell phone

449
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:19,240
Speaker 2: hey would have been carrying that day.

450
00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:21,560
Speaker 1: Nobody thought that was odd.

451
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:25,240
Speaker 3: You know, they all have poker faces. I've been trying

452
00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:29,240
Speaker 3: to read faces and see how they're responding to various

453
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:33,119
Speaker 3: witnesses and whether or not they find them believable. The

454
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:36,440
Speaker 3: only time I got a little bit of a sense

455
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:39,960
Speaker 3: of the jurors perhaps shaking their head a bit at

456
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:43,200
Speaker 3: a witness was the witness who testified that she saw

457
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:47,119
Speaker 3: the man walking on the road muddy and bloody. She

458
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:50,679
Speaker 3: sort of fell apart on cross examination, admitting that she

459
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:54,760
Speaker 3: never mentioned blood until her third interview with law enforcement.

460
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:58,959
Speaker 3: She couldn't explain why she said she did mention it earlier,

461
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:01,600
Speaker 3: and she doesn't know why it's not in the reports.

462
00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:06,880
Speaker 3: She seemed to have some credibility issues with the defense attorneys.

463
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:08,119
Speaker 6: She got very regumented.

464
00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:12,280
Speaker 2: It wasn't a lot of the audio interrogation as the

465
00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:17,240
Speaker 2: questioning lost because of a snassu of Elie Yes.

466
00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:20,119
Speaker 3: In the first days of the investigation, they did lose

467
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:25,720
Speaker 3: many of the interviews that they did with potential suspects.

468
00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:30,479
Speaker 3: Now we've never heard officially whether that includes any of

469
00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 3: these interviews with witnesses. This particular witness didn't come forward

470
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:38,640
Speaker 3: the first time until more than three weeks after the murders.

471
00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:42,280
Speaker 3: That seems to be after that window when that known

472
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:46,239
Speaker 3: problem happened with some of those files being lost. But

473
00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:49,959
Speaker 3: she said that one of the officers told her that

474
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:52,119
Speaker 3: about an hour to an hour and a half of

475
00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:55,080
Speaker 3: one of her interviews is missing, and she said when

476
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:56,600
Speaker 3: she talked about the blood.

477
00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:05,520
Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace.

478
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:13,960
Speaker 10: It was something I've never seen before, the viciousness of

479
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:18,920
Speaker 10: the brutality.

480
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:23,679
Speaker 7: This is going to be overkilled. There's going to be

481
00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:26,760
Speaker 7: mutilation to the point of a partial decapitation.

482
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 2: Here.

483
00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:32,560
Speaker 11: Defense attorney Andrew Baldwin began his cross examination of Sarah

484
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:37,680
Speaker 11: Carbough by asking questions about discrepancies in her descriptions.

485
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 1: Of mud and blood.

486
00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:43,280
Speaker 11: Carbot responded that the details were as simple as it

487
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:47,120
Speaker 11: is and that outside of this testimony, I want nothing

488
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:50,800
Speaker 11: to do with this. Baldwin continued to press, asking about

489
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 11: Bridge Guy's hair texture and eyes. Carbot responded to the attorney, saying,

490
00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 11: you're romanticizing this.

491
00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:02,160
Speaker 2: Who is Sarah Carbaugh back against the defense attorney who

492
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:05,160
Speaker 2: seemingly is making inroads with the eyewitnesses that spot the

493
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:10,120
Speaker 2: quote bridge guy. Now, it's my understanding that they're not

494
00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:14,880
Speaker 2: saying Richard Allen is the bridge guy. But we do

495
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:20,160
Speaker 2: know that Richard Allen himself places himself at the trestle

496
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:24,520
Speaker 2: bridge there at Monton Park at the time the girls

497
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:27,680
Speaker 2: were killed, around the time the girls were killed, wearing

498
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:33,120
Speaker 2: the same outfit as the bridge guy.

499
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:37,040
Speaker 1: Okay, So in order to believe he's.

500
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 2: Not the bridge guy, you have to believe that another

501
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:42,000
Speaker 2: guy was there at the very same time wearing the

502
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:43,080
Speaker 2: very same outfit.

503
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:44,760
Speaker 1: Okay.

504
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:48,320
Speaker 2: So you've got Sarah Carbaugh fighting back with the defense.

505
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:52,720
Speaker 2: But there are other witnesses that state they saw the

506
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:53,280
Speaker 2: bridge guy.

507
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:55,800
Speaker 4: Listen, after jurorsy are showing the bridge guy video from

508
00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:58,520
Speaker 4: Libby Germany's phone, witnesses take the stand who are out

509
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:00,600
Speaker 4: walking the trails and crossing the high bridge the day

510
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:03,480
Speaker 4: the girl's vanished. Raley Voorhees was sixteen and a student

511
00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:05,640
Speaker 4: in Delphia High School when she was out walking near

512
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,280
Speaker 4: Freedom Bridge the day Abbey and Libby vanished. She describes

513
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:10,920
Speaker 4: seeing an unsettling man near the bridge who glared at her.

514
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:12,800
Speaker 4: She didn't recognize the man and said he wore a

515
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:14,880
Speaker 4: mask up to his nose. When shown a blown up

516
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:17,200
Speaker 4: photograph of Bridge Guy before, he said that was the

517
00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:19,520
Speaker 4: man I saw on the trail before, He's described Bridge

518
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 4: Guy as wearing black jeans and black hoodie, black boots

519
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:24,120
Speaker 4: and a black mask. Claimed the man had a bigger

520
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 4: build and estimated him to be twenty to thirty years old.

521
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 4: Before He's admitted her memory may have been impacted by

522
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:31,360
Speaker 4: the photo of Bridge Guy released by police during the

523
00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:32,800
Speaker 4: investigation into the murders.

524
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:35,960
Speaker 2: We're getting different versions about what Bridge Guy looked like.

525
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:39,640
Speaker 1: Well, we've got Bridge Guy on video. So what does

526
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:44,400
Speaker 1: it amount to hill of beans or confusing the jury? Now?

527
00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 1: Think about it.

528
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:48,880
Speaker 2: The one witness says she thought Bridge Guy was wearing

529
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:51,680
Speaker 2: a mask, but if you look at him, he's pushing

530
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:55,320
Speaker 2: his face down into his clothing, all right?

531
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:57,200
Speaker 1: Is that where she got that from?

532
00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:00,920
Speaker 2: At one point did he pull his clothing up over

533
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:04,720
Speaker 2: his mouth or nose and listen to this.

534
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:07,800
Speaker 5: Betsy Blair said she had been out walking the trails

535
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:10,720
Speaker 5: the day that Libby and Abbey disappeared, and after hearing

536
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 5: about the girls, spoke to police about what she saw

537
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:15,680
Speaker 5: that day. Blair was asked to help them create a

538
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:18,040
Speaker 5: sketch of the man she spotted near the bridge. She

539
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:20,640
Speaker 5: said the man had brown, poofy hair and described him

540
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:24,040
Speaker 5: as looking younger. She didn't recall him having facial hair.

541
00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:27,600
Speaker 5: Betsy Blair says she was about fifty feet from bridge

542
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:30,480
Speaker 5: guy and says she thought, due to his posture, that

543
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:31,960
Speaker 5: he was looking for someone.

544
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:36,600
Speaker 2: Straight out to Doctor Bethany Marshall renounced Psycho Allison, author

545
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:40,520
Speaker 2: of deal Breakers. She's on peacock now, Doctor Bethany, I

546
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:44,600
Speaker 2: guess the name Ted Bundy rings a bell? Do you

547
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:47,479
Speaker 2: remember how he lost an incredible amount of weight so

548
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:51,760
Speaker 2: he could escape through a vent? But he changed his appearance.

549
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 2: We saw Scott Peterson change his appearance growing a goatee,

550
00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:00,800
Speaker 2: much as Richard Allen has done dyeing his hair. We

551
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:05,320
Speaker 2: see Brian Coberger charging the quadruple murder in Idaho for

552
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:09,440
Speaker 2: University Idaho students killed in their own beds. We see

553
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:14,120
Speaker 2: him changing his appearance. We see this guy, Richard Allen,

554
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:17,719
Speaker 2: changing his appearance, losing a huge amount of weight and

555
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:22,680
Speaker 2: growing a goateee, anything to separate himself from being the

556
00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:28,560
Speaker 2: bridge guy. Hello, And of course I expect eyewitnesses versions

557
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:29,920
Speaker 2: to differ in some ways.

558
00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:31,160
Speaker 9: Absolutely, Nancy.

559
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:33,720
Speaker 8: But of course he confesses many times in jail, so

560
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:35,840
Speaker 8: once he's incarcerated, he does.

561
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:37,680
Speaker 9: Not try to remove himself from the story.

562
00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:41,240
Speaker 8: So what I think is happening is that he's changing

563
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:44,720
Speaker 8: his appearance so he won't be incarcerated, so he can

564
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:45,560
Speaker 8: go out.

565
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:48,840
Speaker 9: And commit more crimes. Right, this was his moment of

566
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:52,080
Speaker 9: glory in his life when he killed these two girls.

567
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:54,480
Speaker 9: He had been thinking about this for a long time.

568
00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:59,480
Speaker 9: Perhaps fetishize the box cutter, fetishize the gun. Had a

569
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:03,040
Speaker 9: rich Man distributory life leading up to this, and now

570
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:05,160
Speaker 9: that it's over, he wants to be out and on

571
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:08,080
Speaker 9: the loose. He wants to practice what he's learned through

572
00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:08,800
Speaker 9: this crime.

573
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:11,280
Speaker 1: My profile lawyer Philip Debay joining us.

574
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:14,160
Speaker 2: Phil if you could take off your defense hat just

575
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:17,640
Speaker 2: one moment and just tell me. I've seen it many

576
00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:20,520
Speaker 2: times in the cases I prosecuted. When you've got eyewitnesses

577
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:22,240
Speaker 2: the defense and knows they're going to take the stand,

578
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 2: the defendant will try to change his or her appearance.

579
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:31,600
Speaker 2: I've seen it over and over and over to make

580
00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:34,520
Speaker 2: it more difficult for the eyewitness. And when you look

581
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:37,480
Speaker 2: at Bridge Guy, who we now know that Bridge Guy

582
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:38,560
Speaker 2: is the killer.

583
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:43,120
Speaker 1: He's the one that said down the hill.

584
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:47,600
Speaker 2: The more he can differentiate himself from that appearance, the

585
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:50,400
Speaker 2: more difficult it will be for the witnesses. And you

586
00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 2: see how Bridge Guy's trying to cover his face. All

587
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:53,719
Speaker 2: you can see is here to hear.

588
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:56,720
Speaker 6: Yeah, And it's quite common. I mean, obviously people want

589
00:33:56,760 --> 00:34:00,240
Speaker 6: to conceal their identities, particularly when they're going to of

590
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:03,320
Speaker 6: crimes such as double murder. Now, to be Devil's advocate,

591
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:05,400
Speaker 6: there are an awful lot of people out on that

592
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:09,520
Speaker 6: remote bridge that day. The prosecution will have you believed

593
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:12,080
Speaker 6: that he's just out there skulking about looking for the

594
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:17,160
Speaker 6: right opportunity to kill two girls. Whoever did this was

595
00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:19,640
Speaker 6: it was a very unplanned at tech because there was

596
00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:22,000
Speaker 6: no way to know that Abby and Libby would even

597
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:24,840
Speaker 6: be out there that day, So at best, this was

598
00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:25,520
Speaker 6: a crime of art.

599
00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:28,520
Speaker 2: Unless you have been following them on social media.

600
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:31,120
Speaker 6: Sure, But then that means you would have to take

601
00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:33,279
Speaker 6: the day off from work and decide just to hang

602
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:35,840
Speaker 6: out on a bridge and just wait for the right moment.

603
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:38,880
Speaker 6: I think that is a bridge too far. No pun intended.

604
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:42,439
Speaker 1: Guys, what are we learning now?

605
00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:46,520
Speaker 2: We hear the defense is trying yet again to bring

606
00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:51,520
Speaker 2: in the theory of Odinism, that the real killer worshiped

607
00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:55,880
Speaker 2: Thor and odin, the mythological Norse gods.

608
00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:59,160
Speaker 1: Is that true, Dave Mack? Is that true?

609
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:03,080
Speaker 2: The defense trying again to bring in Odinism as a defense.

610
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:06,840
Speaker 4: They are, and they're actually using testimony from the crime

611
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:11,120
Speaker 4: scene investigator about the sticks and branches, saying that that

612
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:14,680
Speaker 4: was actually put there as a sign, even though they

613
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:17,120
Speaker 4: were just thrown on top. They're trying to use that

614
00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:19,960
Speaker 4: as their reason for bringing the Odinism argument back in.

615
00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:23,319
Speaker 11: Lawyers for Richard Allen are once again asking the court

616
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:27,000
Speaker 11: to allow their Odinism theory in the Delphi murders trial.

617
00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:29,640
Speaker 11: The defense claims the crime scene where the girls were

618
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:33,520
Speaker 11: found contains evidence of a ritualistic murder tied to Odinism.

619
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:38,760
Speaker 11: Odinism is a pagan Norse religion and white nationalist group.

620
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:42,480
Speaker 11: The defense tried introducing the odinism theory in September twenty

621
00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:45,520
Speaker 11: twenty three, but Judge Gull blocked them from using the

622
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:49,000
Speaker 11: theory citing a lack of evidence. The defense claims testimony

623
00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:52,719
Speaker 11: from crime scene investigator Brian Oli during the trial is

624
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:54,840
Speaker 11: reason enough to allow the theory.

625
00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:58,920
Speaker 2: We are live at the courthouse as the double murder

626
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:05,360
Speaker 2: trial of two beautiful little girls is underway. When will

627
00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:09,919
Speaker 2: the jury hear all of the multiple confessions given by

628
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:11,720
Speaker 2: Richard Allen?

629
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:12,920
Speaker 1: Straight out?

630
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:17,080
Speaker 2: To Dave mattcrimeonline dot Com investigative reporter covering the trial,

631
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:22,839
Speaker 2: Dave mac who to home? Did Allen give these alleged confessions?

632
00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:25,600
Speaker 4: Probably easier to listen who he didn't give them to Nancy.

633
00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:29,799
Speaker 4: We're talking sixty sixty one different confessions to He talked

634
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:32,600
Speaker 4: to police, he talked to inmates, he talked to his wife,

635
00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:35,200
Speaker 4: He talked to just about anybody that would listen.

636
00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:36,319
Speaker 1: He told them that.

637
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:38,680
Speaker 4: He had something to do with it. And apparently in

638
00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:41,960
Speaker 4: some of these confessions, Nancy, he said things that only

639
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:43,560
Speaker 4: the actual killer would know.

640
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:46,040
Speaker 2: And that's what we were learning so far in dribbles

641
00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:48,959
Speaker 2: and bits. What will we learn when we finally hear

642
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:53,440
Speaker 2: those because I mean, think about it real daily. Really,

643
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:59,560
Speaker 2: inmates and their lawyers don't know that their conversations are

644
00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:04,160
Speaker 2: being rec I assume that you've heard jail house conversations before,

645
00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:08,759
Speaker 2: because about every thirty seconds you say you are being

646
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:12,960
Speaker 2: called from a correctional institution, you can hear a recording

647
00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:17,279
Speaker 2: on and on and on throughout all conversations from the

648
00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:18,200
Speaker 2: jail or prison.

649
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:21,680
Speaker 12: Surely that is quite evident. If it's not actually heard,

650
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:25,239
Speaker 12: it's known. So the fact that anyone, any would make

651
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:28,160
Speaker 12: a confession and not knowing that somebody is either listening

652
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:30,719
Speaker 12: or it has been recorded some fashion, is kind of

653
00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:33,239
Speaker 12: a bit beyond the pale. So I don't know how

654
00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:35,560
Speaker 12: they could kind of convey that in fact, he you know,

655
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:38,239
Speaker 12: he wasn't aware of that, or there wasn't any any

656
00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:40,160
Speaker 12: supervision of these calls. Makes no sense.

657
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:46,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, Philip D. Bay, criminal defense attorney. In some places,

658
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:51,560
Speaker 2: even the walls and the CI correctional institute have recording

659
00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:55,879
Speaker 2: devices in them. Yes, that's true, but this guy wouldn't quit.

660
00:37:56,120 --> 00:38:01,200
Speaker 2: How can you discount sixty one plus confession debate easily?

661
00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:07,040
Speaker 6: There is a branch of forensic psychology called imagination inflation,

662
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:11,280
Speaker 6: and it is a condition regarding false memory, where somebody

663
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:14,399
Speaker 6: might be intimately familiar with some of the details, such

664
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:16,160
Speaker 6: as in this case, if he had been out on

665
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:20,319
Speaker 6: that trail, where due to delirium from being locked up,

666
00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:24,960
Speaker 6: not on meds, or maybe being on improper meds, was

667
00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:29,480
Speaker 6: improperly or inaccurately recounting everything that occurred. It's sort of

668
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:33,399
Speaker 6: a Kopka sque type phenomenon, it really is. It's called

669
00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:36,600
Speaker 6: imagination inflation, and they recount things.

670
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:37,879
Speaker 1: You're making this up.

671
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:43,720
Speaker 2: You're having imagination inflation because nobody said anything about his meds.

672
00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:46,320
Speaker 1: I'm just telling, yes, talking.

673
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:50,520
Speaker 2: And he says this in his confessions because he realized

674
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:53,120
Speaker 2: his family was turning against him. After he keeps confessing

675
00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:56,400
Speaker 2: to stripping and murdering two little girls, the family is

676
00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:59,640
Speaker 2: starting to turn against him. He believes the only way

677
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:02,480
Speaker 2: he will ever be reunited with his family is in heaven.

678
00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:06,480
Speaker 2: That chance, but that said, to get to heaven in

679
00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:08,120
Speaker 2: his mind, he has to confess.

680
00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:11,880
Speaker 6: Remember we saw this in twenty sixteen with John Carr,

681
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:15,520
Speaker 6: who confessed to killing He confessed to killing Jean Benet

682
00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:18,680
Speaker 6: Ramsey at a press conference in Thailand. What do they do?

683
00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:21,839
Speaker 6: They get them on a plane, They extra item, and

684
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:25,400
Speaker 6: nothing matched the forensics. His DNA was nowhere.

685
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:29,200
Speaker 1: It exactly exaginating used.

686
00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:36,240
Speaker 2: That example because Joscott Morgan, what intimate facts about this case?

687
00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:40,799
Speaker 2: Do you believe the real killer would know? In divulge

688
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:43,719
Speaker 2: over sixty one confessions.

689
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:45,719
Speaker 7: Oh my gosh, I kill these two girls, and I

690
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:48,840
Speaker 7: covered them with branches and debris. Oh my gosh, it

691
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:51,360
Speaker 7: was so cold out there, and I can't believe I

692
00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:54,640
Speaker 7: did this. Oh my gosh, I redressed a body, you know,

693
00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:58,520
Speaker 7: Oh my gosh, I didn't. I didn't understand what it

694
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:01,120
Speaker 7: was going to be like to out a child's throat.

695
00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:03,359
Speaker 7: That's the kind of thing.

696
00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:07,839
Speaker 2: And I use most I predict we're going to hear,

697
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:14,440
Speaker 2: You're absolutely right, details of the location, the moments, the

698
00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:19,759
Speaker 2: responses of the girls, his remorse, any tib like, we

699
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:22,600
Speaker 2: haven't even heard the confessions yet, and we already have

700
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:26,640
Speaker 2: been told he mentioned a box cutter and that he

701
00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:29,280
Speaker 2: disposed of the box cutter outside his place of business.

702
00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:31,680
Speaker 1: What plethora.

703
00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:35,640
Speaker 2: Of facts are we going to hear when we finally

704
00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:41,200
Speaker 2: hear those confessions in court? And remember, you don't have

705
00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:45,960
Speaker 2: to give a guy the miranda rights when they're blabbing

706
00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:50,160
Speaker 2: to their wife. A defendant gets Miranda rights, right to

707
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:53,359
Speaker 2: remain silent, so forth, and so on. If in state

708
00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:57,760
Speaker 2: custody and speaking to law enforcement, the Constitution doesn't protect

709
00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:02,920
Speaker 2: you from blabbing to your wife over the prison phone.

710
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:07,919
Speaker 2: We wait as justice unfolds, and we stay live at

711
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:12,000
Speaker 2: the courthouse. And now we remember an American hero. Deputy

712
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:16,560
Speaker 2: Sheriff Daniel Oliver, Sacramento County Sheriffs, shot and killed in

713
00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:21,840
Speaker 2: the line of duty. Served fifteen years with Sacramento County Sheriffs.

714
00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:28,400
Speaker 2: Survived by grieving wife Susan, daughters Jenny and Melissa. American

715
00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:34,200
Speaker 2: hero Deputy Sheriff Daniel Oliver. Thank you to our guests,

716
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:37,839
Speaker 2: but especially to you for being with us as we

717
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:41,760
Speaker 2: cover the Delphi double a murder trial.

718
00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:45,480
Speaker 1: Nancy Gray signing off, goodbye friend,