1
00:00:02,470 --> 00:00:11,890
Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio.

2
00:00:13,090 --> 00:00:15,790
Speaker 2: Hey, welcome to Weird House Cinema. This is Rob Lamb.

3
00:00:16,360 --> 00:00:18,750
Speaker 3: And this is Joe McCormick. And today we're going to

4
00:00:18,770 --> 00:00:23,820
Speaker 3: be talking about the 1983 horror movie Of Unknown Origins,

5
00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:27,420
Speaker 3: starring Peter Weller of Robocop fame, the guy who played Robocop.

6
00:00:28,290 --> 00:00:32,830
Speaker 3: directed by George P. Cosmatos, who you know from probably

7
00:00:32,850 --> 00:00:35,100
Speaker 3: a lot of other more famous films in the 80s,

8
00:00:35,290 --> 00:00:39,659
Speaker 3: notably Rocky, or not Rocky, Rambo 2, the First Blood

9
00:00:39,700 --> 00:00:41,100
Speaker 3: Part 2, colon Rambo.

10
00:00:41,300 --> 00:00:44,980
Speaker 2: Yeah, the second First Blood film, but also sort of

11
00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:46,900
Speaker 2: the first Rambo film proper.

12
00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:50,600
Speaker 3: Because the first movie has the character of Rambo in it,

13
00:00:50,620 --> 00:00:53,099
Speaker 3: but he's not really the Rambo he becomes.

14
00:00:53,530 --> 00:00:58,170
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's probably one of his biggest hits along with Tombstone. Yeah.

15
00:00:58,670 --> 00:01:02,610
Speaker 3: Uh, so of unknown origin is a movie I have

16
00:01:02,650 --> 00:01:05,380
Speaker 3: wanted to cover on the show for quite a while,

17
00:01:05,860 --> 00:01:11,139
Speaker 3: mainly because of it's, um, it's got a crazy elevator pitch,

18
00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:16,140
Speaker 3: which is that Peter Weller plays a yuppie business executive

19
00:01:16,500 --> 00:01:20,220
Speaker 3: in 1980s Manhattan who spends the entire movie trying to

20
00:01:20,300 --> 00:01:23,680
Speaker 3: kill a rat in his house. And I always thought

21
00:01:24,450 --> 00:01:26,750
Speaker 3: I hadn't seen it. I knew what I knew that pitch.

22
00:01:27,090 --> 00:01:28,910
Speaker 3: And I was like, there must be some way that

23
00:01:28,930 --> 00:01:32,690
Speaker 3: that summary doesn't really capture it. Like there's another level

24
00:01:32,750 --> 00:01:35,300
Speaker 3: to the movie. Uh, but now that I've seen it,

25
00:01:35,350 --> 00:01:38,430
Speaker 3: that does capture it. This film is Peter Weller versus

26
00:01:38,490 --> 00:01:44,220
Speaker 3: a rat for 90 minutes. And, uh, some critics have

27
00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:48,000
Speaker 3: argued that this might have been better suited as like a,

28
00:01:48,020 --> 00:01:51,980
Speaker 3: an anthology piece, uh, like a shorter runtime thing, or

29
00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:54,120
Speaker 3: maybe an episode of a horror TV show.

30
00:01:54,540 --> 00:01:57,340
Speaker 2: Yeah. You can definitely see this as a 25 minute

31
00:01:57,420 --> 00:01:59,780
Speaker 2: or less tales from the crypt episode. Yeah.

32
00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:02,140
Speaker 3: Uh, you, you could make that argument that it is

33
00:02:02,180 --> 00:02:06,080
Speaker 3: a stretched out tales from the crypt, but as it is,

34
00:02:06,100 --> 00:02:08,660
Speaker 3: I had a great time with this one. It is

35
00:02:08,740 --> 00:02:13,570
Speaker 3: the perfect mix of absurdity with like that. I can't

36
00:02:13,610 --> 00:02:17,790
Speaker 3: believe this is a real movie feeling, but that and

37
00:02:17,910 --> 00:02:20,430
Speaker 3: equal parts actually good. Yeah.

38
00:02:20,510 --> 00:02:23,110
Speaker 2: It's, On one level, it's way better than it needs

39
00:02:23,169 --> 00:02:25,830
Speaker 2: to be. But actually, I think it is as great

40
00:02:25,930 --> 00:02:28,680
Speaker 2: as it needs to be to justify what it is. Again,

41
00:02:28,690 --> 00:02:32,780
Speaker 2: a feature-length film about a man fighting a rat in

42
00:02:32,820 --> 00:02:36,400
Speaker 2: his own house and destroying his house and possibly his

43
00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:40,480
Speaker 2: life in the process. In order to pull that off,

44
00:02:40,540 --> 00:02:43,360
Speaker 2: you've got to really dig into it and get into

45
00:02:43,380 --> 00:02:47,330
Speaker 2: the meat of what this represents and could represent. And

46
00:02:47,410 --> 00:02:50,070
Speaker 2: really make a go of making as great a film

47
00:02:50,150 --> 00:02:52,390
Speaker 2: out of it as possible. And I think of Unknown

48
00:02:52,470 --> 00:02:56,389
Speaker 2: Origins succeeds. It's just, at the end of the day,

49
00:02:56,490 --> 00:02:59,870
Speaker 2: you're just facing that question that I think the filmmakers

50
00:02:59,930 --> 00:03:02,710
Speaker 2: ended up having to stare straight in the eyes. And

51
00:03:02,730 --> 00:03:07,669
Speaker 2: that is, who was this movie really for? Was there

52
00:03:07,690 --> 00:03:11,090
Speaker 2: really an audience for this? It's a film that, knowing

53
00:03:11,130 --> 00:03:13,660
Speaker 2: the premise... And I didn't always know the premise. I

54
00:03:13,900 --> 00:03:15,760
Speaker 2: wasn't familiar with the title before I was aware of

55
00:03:15,780 --> 00:03:18,480
Speaker 2: the premise. But knowing the premise, it's not a movie

56
00:03:18,500 --> 00:03:20,920
Speaker 2: that I was necessarily in a huge hurry to see

57
00:03:21,580 --> 00:03:24,100
Speaker 2: because it doesn't sound like the sort of film that

58
00:03:24,260 --> 00:03:28,910
Speaker 2: offers an escapist horror experience. And it doesn't. It doesn't

59
00:03:28,970 --> 00:03:31,370
Speaker 2: really give you that escapism. It gives you more of

60
00:03:31,450 --> 00:03:37,030
Speaker 2: a confrontational horror experience, one that involves maybe a fair

61
00:03:37,090 --> 00:03:41,750
Speaker 2: amount of self-exploration. And in that, it's great, but it's

62
00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:46,130
Speaker 2: maybe not a popcorn-munching horror fest that many people might

63
00:03:46,510 --> 00:03:49,550
Speaker 2: have wanted at the time. But for those reasons, I

64
00:03:49,590 --> 00:03:52,930
Speaker 2: think that's why it's really found its home via cult

65
00:03:52,990 --> 00:03:55,870
Speaker 2: following on home video and so forth.

66
00:03:56,570 --> 00:03:59,369
Speaker 3: You asked who this movie was for, and I think

67
00:03:59,410 --> 00:04:02,610
Speaker 3: the answer is it was for Stephen King, because he

68
00:04:02,770 --> 00:04:06,620
Speaker 3: famously liked it. And There are a bunch of movies

69
00:04:06,660 --> 00:04:09,680
Speaker 3: like this. Is The Boogans an example? Or these movies

70
00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:12,020
Speaker 3: that maybe not a lot of people have heard of,

71
00:04:12,900 --> 00:04:15,720
Speaker 3: but they were a horror film from the 70s or

72
00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:20,280
Speaker 3: 80s that Stephen King wrote a favorable review of in

73
00:04:20,380 --> 00:04:25,380
Speaker 3: some niche horror magazine at the time and therefore got

74
00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:30,300
Speaker 3: a kind of very particular that zone of culture cult following.

75
00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:33,220
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, if the king of horror endorses your work,

76
00:04:34,110 --> 00:04:36,770
Speaker 2: I mean, it's true today as well, but certainly at

77
00:04:36,810 --> 00:04:44,400
Speaker 2: the time, pre-internet, having the magazines and different publications that

78
00:04:44,420 --> 00:04:46,700
Speaker 2: would have been read by the fan base and just

79
00:04:46,740 --> 00:04:48,810
Speaker 2: having someone like King come out and say, this is

80
00:04:48,850 --> 00:04:51,830
Speaker 2: a great rap movie, then people are going to take notice.

81
00:04:52,370 --> 00:04:54,360
Speaker 3: It has a Stephen King-y sense of humor, too.

82
00:04:55,790 --> 00:04:59,510
Speaker 2: Yeah, you could easily imagine it being a King's short story,

83
00:04:59,670 --> 00:05:01,750
Speaker 2: though that is not its origin. We do know of

84
00:05:01,830 --> 00:05:03,830
Speaker 2: Unknown Origin's origin. We'll get to it in a bit.

85
00:05:04,490 --> 00:05:07,150
Speaker 3: Another thing I learned by watching this film, and this

86
00:05:07,190 --> 00:05:13,540
Speaker 3: was not planned at all, between our rerun of the

87
00:05:13,580 --> 00:05:16,560
Speaker 3: original episode on Star Trek Wrath of Khan and our

88
00:05:16,620 --> 00:05:19,260
Speaker 3: new Weird House Cinema episode from last week on Star

89
00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:24,489
Speaker 3: Trek First Contact, We have recently done two different genre

90
00:05:24,529 --> 00:05:27,410
Speaker 3: movie riffs on Moby Dick. And here today, we have

91
00:05:27,450 --> 00:05:31,490
Speaker 3: a third. Of unknown origin is Moby Dick, except the

92
00:05:31,589 --> 00:05:35,400
Speaker 3: whale is a rat, a huge rat. The ocean is

93
00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:41,960
Speaker 3: a swanky, recently renovated brownstone. And Ahab is like one

94
00:05:41,980 --> 00:05:45,980
Speaker 3: of the secondary characters in American Psycho, played by RoboCop.

95
00:05:47,220 --> 00:05:51,289
Speaker 2: And doesn't Weller's character, Bart, Doesn't he try and kill

96
00:05:51,310 --> 00:05:53,230
Speaker 2: the rat with a copy of Moby Dick at one point?

97
00:05:53,410 --> 00:05:54,470
Speaker 2: He does indeed.

98
00:05:54,690 --> 00:05:56,929
Speaker 3: It's like Evil Dead 2 when he puts a farewell

99
00:05:56,970 --> 00:05:59,310
Speaker 3: to arms on top of the severed hand. I know.

100
00:05:59,330 --> 00:06:01,510
Speaker 2: It sounds like it's too much, but when you're in

101
00:06:01,550 --> 00:06:03,919
Speaker 2: the film, it doesn't feel like too much. You definitely

102
00:06:03,940 --> 00:06:05,779
Speaker 2: take notice of it, but it doesn't feel like it's

103
00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:06,960
Speaker 2: Jump the Shark, per se.

104
00:06:07,220 --> 00:06:09,460
Speaker 3: And he also doesn't just grab a random book off

105
00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:12,820
Speaker 3: the shelf. He has been, if you notice, before the

106
00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:15,560
Speaker 3: bashing with the book starts, he's reading it. He's just

107
00:06:15,580 --> 00:06:17,400
Speaker 3: sitting in his office reading Moby Dick.

108
00:06:17,779 --> 00:06:22,620
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. So it is a fascinating film. Again, the

109
00:06:22,660 --> 00:06:26,580
Speaker 2: premise is really straightforward, man versus rat. And, you know,

110
00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:29,140
Speaker 2: like we've been saying, it certainly could have played well

111
00:06:29,170 --> 00:06:34,929
Speaker 2: with standard schlock treatment, shorter format. And it engages those expectations,

112
00:06:35,010 --> 00:06:38,169
Speaker 2: but it really does craft an engaging and thought-provoking drama

113
00:06:38,230 --> 00:06:43,270
Speaker 2: about midlife crisis, midlife anxiety, the illusion of control in

114
00:06:43,300 --> 00:06:47,370
Speaker 2: the modern world, consumerist culture. I mean, it's ultimately a

115
00:06:47,730 --> 00:06:51,830
Speaker 2: pretty rich text for interpretation. There are some grisly and

116
00:06:51,870 --> 00:06:54,870
Speaker 2: just disgusting moments, to be sure. But I think the

117
00:06:54,890 --> 00:06:58,130
Speaker 2: most disturbing moments in the film, for me anyway, are

118
00:06:58,170 --> 00:07:01,770
Speaker 2: more about the places we find ourselves midway upon the

119
00:07:01,810 --> 00:07:05,750
Speaker 2: journey of our life. Again, it's not escapist horror. It's

120
00:07:05,770 --> 00:07:07,300
Speaker 2: very much confrontational horror.

121
00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:12,080
Speaker 3: You're right. It's very much a what-is-life-for kind of movie.

122
00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:18,440
Speaker 3: And It's weird that our protagonist is presented as very

123
00:07:18,670 --> 00:07:23,270
Speaker 3: ambitious and driven. He's a business executive on the come

124
00:07:23,370 --> 00:07:27,230
Speaker 3: up and he's really into getting the next big promotion

125
00:07:27,290 --> 00:07:30,430
Speaker 3: and getting the next big raise. He does seem like

126
00:07:30,610 --> 00:07:35,890
Speaker 3: already a goal-oriented character, but maybe there is an underlying

127
00:07:35,970 --> 00:07:39,370
Speaker 3: and unacknowledged sense of hollowness in that and he finds

128
00:07:39,450 --> 00:07:43,600
Speaker 3: more purpose somehow in this more primal struggle of just

129
00:07:43,660 --> 00:07:45,400
Speaker 3: trying to kill a rat that he can't get out

130
00:07:45,420 --> 00:07:46,260
Speaker 3: of his house.

131
00:07:46,220 --> 00:07:49,170
Speaker 2: I think that's that's a strong read um i think

132
00:07:49,190 --> 00:07:52,070
Speaker 2: there's also a sense of uh you know the man

133
00:07:52,110 --> 00:07:56,590
Speaker 2: who fights monsters becomes a monster here as well um

134
00:07:57,070 --> 00:08:00,370
Speaker 2: and i think one of the another layer that's interesting

135
00:08:00,410 --> 00:08:03,160
Speaker 2: here is that i think bart is in large to

136
00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:06,620
Speaker 2: a large degree a realistic and likable character and that's

137
00:08:06,700 --> 00:08:09,260
Speaker 2: a very key difference between what this film would have

138
00:08:09,300 --> 00:08:11,940
Speaker 2: been the story would have been had it been a

139
00:08:11,990 --> 00:08:14,270
Speaker 2: Tales from the Crypt episode. Oh, yeah. In which, by

140
00:08:14,430 --> 00:08:17,990
Speaker 2: design and by, you know, virtue of the genre, you

141
00:08:18,030 --> 00:08:20,930
Speaker 2: would need him to be just a real bastard. Not

142
00:08:20,970 --> 00:08:23,070
Speaker 2: a likable character. In order to fit into the sort

143
00:08:23,110 --> 00:08:26,050
Speaker 2: of classic Tales from the Crypt sort of mold, you

144
00:08:26,090 --> 00:08:29,120
Speaker 2: would be rooting for the rat. And here, you know,

145
00:08:29,420 --> 00:08:33,079
Speaker 2: I'm rooting for Bart the whole time. Like, he makes

146
00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:35,980
Speaker 2: some bad decisions. Not everything. He's not to say he's

147
00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:39,160
Speaker 2: an angel or anything, but, like, you want him to

148
00:08:39,260 --> 00:08:40,020
Speaker 2: find a more.

149
00:08:42,030 --> 00:08:45,730
Speaker 2: Balanced path forward and he keeps going deeper into this

150
00:08:45,770 --> 00:08:47,390
Speaker 2: problem yeah.

151
00:08:47,210 --> 00:08:49,189
Speaker 3: I think that's right uh a part of that is

152
00:08:49,370 --> 00:08:52,910
Speaker 3: just peter weller uh you know being so charismatic on

153
00:08:52,950 --> 00:08:56,370
Speaker 3: screen but also uh i mean the way he's written

154
00:08:56,429 --> 00:08:59,890
Speaker 3: he is not a a morally perfect character certainly like

155
00:08:59,910 --> 00:09:01,739
Speaker 3: you say he does a lot of questionable things in

156
00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:05,599
Speaker 3: the movie uh but he's he is basically sympathetic uh

157
00:09:05,820 --> 00:09:09,410
Speaker 3: and it's also hard to write like a finance company

158
00:09:09,470 --> 00:09:12,860
Speaker 3: executive that way, but he, yeah, he comes off as

159
00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:16,860
Speaker 3: a guy who's just kind of like struggling and frustrated

160
00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:19,380
Speaker 3: and you see how he cares about his son and,

161
00:09:19,620 --> 00:09:22,540
Speaker 3: and things like that. And, and so you are basically

162
00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:25,220
Speaker 3: on his side. I have seen some people online say

163
00:09:25,260 --> 00:09:27,020
Speaker 3: that they are more on the rat side, but I

164
00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:30,270
Speaker 3: think it's, it's, it's an open question, which side you take.

165
00:09:30,530 --> 00:09:32,370
Speaker 2: I didn't, I didn't side with the rat at all

166
00:09:32,390 --> 00:09:39,420
Speaker 2: on that side. I'm, I, I'm largely anti-rat infestation in life.

167
00:09:39,540 --> 00:09:42,700
Speaker 2: And so, you know, it's a complex scenario. Rats are

168
00:09:42,740 --> 00:09:45,719
Speaker 2: a problem for humans in part because of what humans

169
00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:48,620
Speaker 2: have made out of the world. You know, rats have

170
00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:51,290
Speaker 2: been able to thrive in our shadow in ways that

171
00:09:53,210 --> 00:09:56,569
Speaker 2: few other species have. And so they have traveled with

172
00:09:56,650 --> 00:09:59,890
Speaker 2: us around the world. Our success has been their success.

173
00:10:00,900 --> 00:10:03,959
Speaker 2: But with this has come a fair amount of conflict

174
00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:06,570
Speaker 2: as well. So, you know, I think it's easy to

175
00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:10,010
Speaker 2: hate the rat. It's easy to fall into the same

176
00:10:10,070 --> 00:10:13,250
Speaker 2: line of thinking that Bart has regarding the rat. But

177
00:10:13,770 --> 00:10:16,130
Speaker 2: it's ultimately a very complex situation between us. But I

178
00:10:16,210 --> 00:10:19,200
Speaker 2: never rooted for the rat. Even though I think one...

179
00:10:19,670 --> 00:10:21,670
Speaker 2: comes to understand the rat. I think maybe Bart comes

180
00:10:21,710 --> 00:10:23,830
Speaker 2: to understand the rat as well. Yeah.

181
00:10:24,790 --> 00:10:27,329
Speaker 3: There are times when the rat is horrifying, but if

182
00:10:27,370 --> 00:10:29,459
Speaker 3: you reflect on it, like in the middle of the night,

183
00:10:29,929 --> 00:10:32,260
Speaker 3: they have a situation in which they both scare each

184
00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:34,900
Speaker 3: other when the rat's just trying to have some toilet time,

185
00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:39,340
Speaker 3: but Bart opens up the top of the toilet bowl

186
00:10:39,380 --> 00:10:41,540
Speaker 3: and the rat is in the toilet and he screams

187
00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:44,540
Speaker 3: and the rat screams and they've both terrified each other.

188
00:10:44,559 --> 00:10:46,360
Speaker 2: I don't think the rat had any business being in

189
00:10:46,380 --> 00:10:48,199
Speaker 2: that toilet though. I'm just going to go ahead and

190
00:10:48,260 --> 00:10:48,540
Speaker 2: say it.

191
00:10:49,510 --> 00:10:52,220
Speaker 3: Especially in the scene after that, where, uh, the character

192
00:10:52,300 --> 00:10:55,780
Speaker 3: cleat explains that the rat was trying to eat his genitals,

193
00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:58,820
Speaker 3: which rats apparently do. There are a lot of rat

194
00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:02,600
Speaker 3: facts in this movie, some of which are basically true.

195
00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:04,760
Speaker 3: Others are just totally made up. Yeah.

196
00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:09,309
Speaker 2: I would say even, even when the facts are incorrect, uh, factually,

197
00:11:09,710 --> 00:11:13,160
Speaker 2: they're still spiritually correct. There, there is a, there is a,

198
00:11:13,330 --> 00:11:16,610
Speaker 2: an understanding of the rat in this, the pervasive understanding

199
00:11:16,630 --> 00:11:19,760
Speaker 2: of the rat is the ultimate survivor. And I think

200
00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:21,940
Speaker 2: that is true. And I think the story of the

201
00:11:22,020 --> 00:11:26,819
Speaker 2: rat definitely backs that up. But this film should not

202
00:11:26,860 --> 00:11:31,170
Speaker 2: be anyone's primary text for understanding rat behavior or biology.

203
00:11:31,950 --> 00:11:34,890
Speaker 3: Now, I guess we should probably give a content warning

204
00:11:34,929 --> 00:11:36,850
Speaker 3: at the top. You might have been able to guess

205
00:11:36,990 --> 00:11:39,120
Speaker 3: from the synopsis that there is going to be some

206
00:11:39,290 --> 00:11:42,700
Speaker 3: violence toward animals in the narrative of this movie. There's

207
00:11:42,740 --> 00:11:47,510
Speaker 3: also a part where... where Bart is like reviewing some footage.

208
00:11:47,590 --> 00:11:50,230
Speaker 3: The thing is not original footage shot for the movie.

209
00:11:50,270 --> 00:11:52,609
Speaker 3: It looks like stock footage, but that it does look

210
00:11:52,630 --> 00:11:55,850
Speaker 3: like real footage from a laboratory of like rats actually

211
00:11:55,910 --> 00:11:59,069
Speaker 3: hurting each other. So yeah. If you're very sensitive to that,

212
00:11:59,110 --> 00:12:00,120
Speaker 3: you might want to skip this.

213
00:12:00,390 --> 00:12:02,980
Speaker 2: Yeah. That, that research portion of the picture is pretty

214
00:12:03,020 --> 00:12:05,080
Speaker 2: hard to watch. Um, and it's supposed to be, I mean,

215
00:12:05,100 --> 00:12:07,939
Speaker 2: that's the intention is that he's gone down the rabbit

216
00:12:08,020 --> 00:12:11,520
Speaker 2: or rat hole on this, this research binge. And, uh,

217
00:12:11,620 --> 00:12:15,130
Speaker 2: it is starting to mess with him. Um, Outside of that, though,

218
00:12:15,290 --> 00:12:19,490
Speaker 2: outside of the stock footage, bad things happen to rats

219
00:12:19,590 --> 00:12:23,410
Speaker 2: and other animals and humans in this film. But it's

220
00:12:23,550 --> 00:12:26,390
Speaker 2: not a film, by all accounts, in which rats were

221
00:12:26,470 --> 00:12:28,770
Speaker 2: actually harmed. We cannot say that of all the films

222
00:12:28,809 --> 00:12:30,770
Speaker 2: we've watched for Weird House Cinema, especially when you get

223
00:12:30,870 --> 00:12:34,860
Speaker 2: older films and films, you know, international productions and so forth.

224
00:12:34,929 --> 00:12:36,670
Speaker 2: But in the credits, it says, quote, the welfare of

225
00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:39,120
Speaker 2: the animals used in this film was considered throughout production.

226
00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:41,640
Speaker 2: No animals were ever in danger of being harmed.

227
00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:46,979
Speaker 3: In fact, in the scenes with actors, I don't think

228
00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:51,010
Speaker 3: there are ever live rats present. I think it looks

229
00:12:51,090 --> 00:12:53,650
Speaker 3: to me like it's only ever like a puppet or

230
00:12:53,690 --> 00:12:57,290
Speaker 3: a prop if humans are on screen. And the footage

231
00:12:57,330 --> 00:13:00,390
Speaker 3: of real rats is just extreme close-ups where you're just

232
00:13:00,410 --> 00:13:02,620
Speaker 3: seeing like a rat face or a rat mouth.

233
00:13:03,429 --> 00:13:06,880
Speaker 2: I didn't go super deep into figuring out how they

234
00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:09,599
Speaker 2: did all the different effects. I think we maybe have

235
00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:12,990
Speaker 2: some live rats present. in some of the scuttling scenes.

236
00:13:13,370 --> 00:13:15,510
Speaker 2: Not sure on that. I think we have a possum

237
00:13:15,530 --> 00:13:17,689
Speaker 2: in there standing in for our rat because our rat

238
00:13:17,830 --> 00:13:22,830
Speaker 2: is huge. It is essentially a giant rat, which is

239
00:13:22,870 --> 00:13:26,110
Speaker 2: to say like possum size. There's also a puppet effect

240
00:13:26,150 --> 00:13:30,310
Speaker 2: that's used. So yeah, nobody's turning a flamethrower on the

241
00:13:30,350 --> 00:13:31,610
Speaker 2: rats or anything in this picture.

242
00:13:32,210 --> 00:13:38,150
Speaker 3: Question. The movie never addresses this, but I was wondering...

243
00:13:38,620 --> 00:13:42,380
Speaker 3: Is it supposed to be a mutant rat or a

244
00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:45,300
Speaker 3: monster rat of some kind? Or is it just supposed

245
00:13:45,340 --> 00:13:48,660
Speaker 3: to be a normal rat that for some reason is

246
00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:51,410
Speaker 3: the size of a cat and extremely aggressive?

247
00:13:52,510 --> 00:13:56,490
Speaker 2: That's a great question. I wonder, too, if the rat,

248
00:13:57,210 --> 00:13:59,390
Speaker 2: in a way, it's almost like the rat gets bigger.

249
00:13:59,410 --> 00:14:03,150
Speaker 2: And if that is supposed to be something that is

250
00:14:03,570 --> 00:14:07,790
Speaker 2: objectively true or if this represents the subjective truth threat

251
00:14:07,830 --> 00:14:10,990
Speaker 2: of the rat in Bart's mind because the rat really

252
00:14:11,030 --> 00:14:13,209
Speaker 2: becomes like it's not just a rat it is like

253
00:14:13,230 --> 00:14:18,170
Speaker 2: a just pervasive all-encompassing threat to the level of control

254
00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:20,120
Speaker 2: that he thought he had over his life to the

255
00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:23,340
Speaker 2: purpose he thought he had in his life so the

256
00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:25,440
Speaker 2: the rat has become larger than life so maybe you

257
00:14:25,460 --> 00:14:28,080
Speaker 2: should have something larger than a rat play it you know.

258
00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:30,420
Speaker 3: That's a good point I think it could well be

259
00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:35,810
Speaker 3: intended as psychological inflation in the prop rats we see Uh,

260
00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:39,310
Speaker 3: but certainly like if it's supposed to be a mutant

261
00:14:39,430 --> 00:14:42,030
Speaker 3: rat or something, I don't know what it ever says

262
00:14:42,110 --> 00:14:45,110
Speaker 3: in the source novel about where the rat comes from.

263
00:14:45,130 --> 00:14:48,770
Speaker 3: The movie has no information at all about where this

264
00:14:48,830 --> 00:14:52,570
Speaker 3: rat comes from. There's not like a mutagen ooze origin

265
00:14:52,630 --> 00:14:55,310
Speaker 3: story or anything. Yeah. And I might even say it is,

266
00:14:55,470 --> 00:14:56,790
Speaker 3: it is of unknown origin.

267
00:14:56,990 --> 00:14:57,310
Speaker 2: Yeah.

268
00:14:57,370 --> 00:14:58,350
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah.

269
00:14:58,410 --> 00:15:00,600
Speaker 2: So there is a mutant aspect to this. It's not

270
00:15:00,630 --> 00:15:02,860
Speaker 2: directly stated. I could very well imagine that being part

271
00:15:02,900 --> 00:15:06,170
Speaker 2: of the text because Certainly you get into rat horror fiction,

272
00:15:06,190 --> 00:15:08,990
Speaker 2: and that is sometimes the case. In fact, Stephen King's

273
00:15:09,110 --> 00:15:13,570
Speaker 2: own Graveyard Shift gets into, they're not really mutated per se,

274
00:15:13,590 --> 00:15:18,610
Speaker 2: but they're like greatly enlarged kind of, you know, eldritch

275
00:15:18,670 --> 00:15:22,450
Speaker 2: horror rats that live beneath the cotton mill. Yeah.

276
00:15:23,510 --> 00:15:25,810
Speaker 3: I've never read that one, but yeah. Oh, it's pretty good.

277
00:15:25,890 --> 00:15:26,650
Speaker 3: It's a rat, not a bat.

278
00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:31,950
Speaker 2: It's both like rats and bats, bats and rats sort

279
00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:35,510
Speaker 2: of fused together, some sort of giant creature. It's pretty great.

280
00:15:35,670 --> 00:15:37,130
Speaker 2: And the movie is a lot of fun as well.

281
00:15:37,290 --> 00:15:40,630
Speaker 2: But yeah, graveyard shift. I forgot to look up, see

282
00:15:40,650 --> 00:15:43,810
Speaker 2: where that, that occurs in comparison. I forget when that

283
00:15:43,870 --> 00:15:46,170
Speaker 2: one actually was written and when it was published, maybe

284
00:15:46,190 --> 00:15:51,220
Speaker 2: at like a seventies origin. Anyway, I do want to

285
00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:55,800
Speaker 2: talk briefly about the title because for, for my money,

286
00:15:55,820 --> 00:15:58,300
Speaker 2: I think of unknown origin is a pretty perfect title.

287
00:15:58,810 --> 00:16:02,730
Speaker 2: But apparently, minds were very much divided on this. Getting

288
00:16:02,750 --> 00:16:04,890
Speaker 2: into some of the extras that we'll discuss, the screenwriter

289
00:16:04,930 --> 00:16:07,450
Speaker 2: loved it, thought this was a great title. It's not

290
00:16:07,470 --> 00:16:10,010
Speaker 2: the title of the original source material, but the title

291
00:16:10,050 --> 00:16:13,890
Speaker 2: that he came up with for the screenplay. But I've

292
00:16:13,930 --> 00:16:18,070
Speaker 2: also heard and read that it was maybe generally part

293
00:16:18,430 --> 00:16:21,930
Speaker 2: of the marketing campaign that kind of failed to land

294
00:16:21,950 --> 00:16:26,500
Speaker 2: this film the audience that anyone had hoped for. It

295
00:16:26,530 --> 00:16:28,840
Speaker 2: gets into the more complex question of who it was for,

296
00:16:28,940 --> 00:16:30,760
Speaker 2: and was there really a market out there for a

297
00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:37,580
Speaker 2: thinking man's man versus rat movie? But I loved it.

298
00:16:37,580 --> 00:16:40,000
Speaker 2: I think it's a great title. However, at the same time,

299
00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:43,210
Speaker 2: I've sometimes gotten it confused with 1990s without warning.

300
00:16:43,470 --> 00:16:44,690
Speaker 3: Yes, me too.

301
00:16:45,570 --> 00:16:50,850
Speaker 2: There's not a lot of direct comparison there. We don't

302
00:16:50,870 --> 00:16:53,710
Speaker 2: really have the same words in the titles, but without warning,

303
00:16:54,090 --> 00:16:56,690
Speaker 2: of unknown origin. I kind of like mix them together.

304
00:16:57,810 --> 00:17:01,430
Speaker 3: I would get of unknown origin mixed up with without warning.

305
00:17:01,630 --> 00:17:03,670
Speaker 3: And I can't remember the title of it now, but

306
00:17:04,030 --> 00:17:09,020
Speaker 3: one of the two cattle mutilation movies we've talked about. Oh, yeah.

307
00:17:09,060 --> 00:17:12,820
Speaker 2: There's endangered species, but then there's the return.

308
00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:15,359
Speaker 3: And then I'm thinking the return.

309
00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:19,450
Speaker 2: What's the kind of erotic thriller with Donald Sutherland in it?

310
00:17:19,540 --> 00:17:20,929
Speaker 2: What's the title on that one?

311
00:17:21,540 --> 00:17:23,290
Speaker 3: Oh, sorry, we just had to look it up because

312
00:17:23,310 --> 00:17:25,090
Speaker 3: we couldn't figure this out. But it's Don't Look Now,

313
00:17:25,150 --> 00:17:27,410
Speaker 3: which is actually, I haven't seen it in a while,

314
00:17:27,450 --> 00:17:29,590
Speaker 3: but I remember it being a great horror movie. A

315
00:17:29,710 --> 00:17:35,470
Speaker 3: very dark, difficult, complex, psychological horror movie, but an excellent one.

316
00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:38,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I haven't, this one is on my list,

317
00:17:38,380 --> 00:17:41,040
Speaker 2: I haven't seen it yet. But the title alone just

318
00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:43,780
Speaker 2: kind of like falls into a similar category. Like, Don't

319
00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:46,340
Speaker 2: Look Now, what am I not looking at? Of unknown origin,

320
00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:49,650
Speaker 2: what is of unknown origin? Without warning, what has occurred?

321
00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:53,760
Speaker 2: And I guess these are great evocative titles, but sometimes

322
00:17:53,780 --> 00:17:59,060
Speaker 2: you can maybe confuse them with each other. All right.

323
00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:02,140
Speaker 2: We'll get into more of this as we proceed, but

324
00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:04,260
Speaker 2: we'll go ahead and just say, hey, if you want

325
00:18:04,300 --> 00:18:07,800
Speaker 2: to watch Of Unknown Origin, luckily it is, I think,

326
00:18:07,820 --> 00:18:11,300
Speaker 2: pretty widely available. And Vinegar Syndrome recently put out a

327
00:18:11,340 --> 00:18:14,640
Speaker 2: physical release of the picture. This is the one you

328
00:18:14,660 --> 00:18:15,280
Speaker 2: picked up, right, Joe?

329
00:18:15,700 --> 00:18:17,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, I've got the two discs here. So the UHD

330
00:18:17,660 --> 00:18:20,859
Speaker 3: disc looks great, but I really like that it is

331
00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:27,140
Speaker 3: at once crisp, but preserving that 80s, you know, George

332
00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:31,380
Speaker 3: Cosmato's film grain, like it has that look. So it's

333
00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:34,409
Speaker 3: still a little bit rough looking. There's some kind of

334
00:18:34,460 --> 00:18:38,250
Speaker 3: texture of film that comes through that's nice. And then

335
00:18:38,510 --> 00:18:41,090
Speaker 3: on the Blu-ray disc, there are tons of extras that

336
00:18:41,130 --> 00:18:43,409
Speaker 3: I didn't have time to get into in full. I

337
00:18:43,450 --> 00:18:47,020
Speaker 3: watched a few of them Including a new interview that

338
00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:49,899
Speaker 3: they did for this set with Peter Weller about the

339
00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:51,960
Speaker 3: movie that I definitely want to talk about in a

340
00:18:51,980 --> 00:18:55,580
Speaker 3: minute here. Because I don't know if I'd ever seen

341
00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:59,440
Speaker 3: an interview with Peter Weller before, but he is great

342
00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:01,770
Speaker 3: in this kind of setting. He has a great like

343
00:19:01,830 --> 00:19:05,070
Speaker 3: storytelling sensibility. You could tell he's like a big personality

344
00:19:05,130 --> 00:19:08,130
Speaker 3: and maybe also a teller of tall tales. I'm not sure,

345
00:19:08,210 --> 00:19:12,410
Speaker 3: but you kind of wonder about that. But anyway, that

346
00:19:12,470 --> 00:19:14,070
Speaker 3: extra was great, and I want to talk about some

347
00:19:14,090 --> 00:19:15,350
Speaker 3: of the stories he tells.

348
00:19:16,109 --> 00:19:19,600
Speaker 2: Awesome, awesome. Yeah, that one being newer is not on

349
00:19:19,630 --> 00:19:23,020
Speaker 2: the disc that I rented from Videodrome. Here in Atlanta,

350
00:19:23,060 --> 00:19:27,320
Speaker 2: I rented the older Aero Blu-ray that came out several

351
00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:30,159
Speaker 2: years back. But it has some of the features that

352
00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:33,220
Speaker 2: are then included in the Vinegar Syndrome. So I watched

353
00:19:33,460 --> 00:19:35,260
Speaker 2: a couple of those features, and I'll refer back to

354
00:19:35,300 --> 00:19:36,199
Speaker 2: those as we go as well.

355
00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:40,290
Speaker 3: Did you watch the interview with Louis Delgrande called Are

356
00:19:40,590 --> 00:19:41,889
Speaker 3: You the Guy from Scanners?

357
00:19:42,109 --> 00:19:44,510
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that one's great. He's such a character.

358
00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:55,920
Speaker 3: Well, are we about to do the connections?

359
00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:58,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's get into it. Starting at the top with

360
00:19:59,010 --> 00:20:04,750
Speaker 2: George P. Kosmatos, who lived 1941 through 2005, Greek-Italian film

361
00:20:04,790 --> 00:20:09,490
Speaker 2: director and screenwriter and father of contemporary director Panos Kosmatos.

362
00:20:09,950 --> 00:20:14,780
Speaker 2: whose work we've covered on the show before. George P. Cosmatos,

363
00:20:14,820 --> 00:20:17,560
Speaker 2: Cosmatos the Elder here, his directing credits go back to

364
00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:23,200
Speaker 2: 1971 Sin, starring Raquel Welch, a UK-produced film made in Cyprus.

365
00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:26,260
Speaker 2: He previously served as an assistant director on such films

366
00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:30,440
Speaker 2: as 64's Zorba the Greek. His Italian productions of the

367
00:20:30,850 --> 00:20:34,889
Speaker 2: 1970s consisted of 73's Massacre in Rome with Richard Burton.

368
00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:39,380
Speaker 2: And 76 is the Cassandra Crossing that has Sophia Loren,

369
00:20:39,619 --> 00:20:42,879
Speaker 2: Richard Harris, Martin Sheen, and O.J. Simpson in it. Followed

370
00:20:42,940 --> 00:20:46,810
Speaker 2: by the U.K. film Escape to Athena that has Roger

371
00:20:46,850 --> 00:20:50,649
Speaker 2: Moore and a rather good cast. To understand that one

372
00:20:50,690 --> 00:20:55,369
Speaker 2: was not really a big hit. And then 1983's Of

373
00:20:55,450 --> 00:20:59,150
Speaker 2: Unknown Origin was his first North American film. A Canadian production.

374
00:20:59,660 --> 00:21:02,560
Speaker 2: It's set in New York City, but it's filmed in Montreal.

375
00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:06,900
Speaker 2: And I mean, it's it's very Canadian, as we'll be discussing.

376
00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:11,859
Speaker 2: It's like I'm pretty much a fully Canadian supporting cast.

377
00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:16,129
Speaker 2: It has some of the key effects people were also

378
00:21:16,190 --> 00:21:21,929
Speaker 2: effects people on scanners and Cronenberg. There are numerous Cronenberg

379
00:21:21,950 --> 00:21:23,150
Speaker 2: connections to be made here.

380
00:21:23,450 --> 00:21:27,030
Speaker 3: It feels and looks in many ways like a Cronenberg movie.

381
00:21:27,330 --> 00:21:30,860
Speaker 3: I don't think Cronenberg would. pick this script to do

382
00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:34,939
Speaker 3: as a movie. It doesn't exactly have his sensibility, but aesthetically,

383
00:21:35,180 --> 00:21:37,330
Speaker 3: it's very much in the Cronenberg zone.

384
00:21:37,790 --> 00:21:39,710
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was thinking about this earlier. It's like, what

385
00:21:39,750 --> 00:21:41,730
Speaker 2: if Cronenberg had directed it? And then I'm like, well,

386
00:21:41,770 --> 00:21:45,230
Speaker 2: what would be the Cronenberg-y sort of twist? Something like

387
00:21:45,530 --> 00:21:48,430
Speaker 2: using computers to sync minds with the rat or something?

388
00:21:48,450 --> 00:21:52,729
Speaker 2: There'd be some extra speculative level, I would imagine, if

389
00:21:52,869 --> 00:21:54,580
Speaker 2: Cronenberg were fully involved in it.

390
00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:57,770
Speaker 3: I think so. If it were Cronenberg, I it would

391
00:21:57,850 --> 00:22:00,929
Speaker 3: be a little bit less funny and playful. And I

392
00:22:00,990 --> 00:22:04,590
Speaker 3: think it would go harder into the weird stuff.

393
00:22:05,450 --> 00:22:05,730
Speaker 2: Yeah.

394
00:22:05,890 --> 00:22:09,129
Speaker 3: He would add in some body horror in the dream sequences. Uh,

395
00:22:09,910 --> 00:22:12,290
Speaker 3: like there's a scene where the rat bursts out of

396
00:22:12,330 --> 00:22:16,160
Speaker 3: a birthday cake in a dream. And I think Cronenberg

397
00:22:16,180 --> 00:22:19,500
Speaker 3: would probably have the rat bursting out of a body. Right. Yeah.

398
00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:22,520
Speaker 2: That would make sense. Yeah. All right. But anyway, of

399
00:22:22,580 --> 00:22:24,220
Speaker 2: unknown origin. Yeah.

400
00:22:24,220 --> 00:22:24,280
Speaker 1: 83.

401
00:22:24,260 --> 00:22:26,860
Speaker 2: Uh, we'll talk more about how it was received, how

402
00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:29,850
Speaker 2: it did, But he ended up following this up with

403
00:22:30,310 --> 00:22:33,350
Speaker 2: 85's Rambo First Blood Part 2, which we already mentioned

404
00:22:33,410 --> 00:22:36,909
Speaker 2: as being a sequel to First Blood, but also the

405
00:22:36,970 --> 00:22:40,770
Speaker 2: first proper Rambo film. It was a major hit. It

406
00:22:40,810 --> 00:22:43,810
Speaker 2: had Stallone and Richard Crenna in it. And then he

407
00:22:43,869 --> 00:22:46,210
Speaker 2: followed that up with another film that we've mentioned briefly

408
00:22:46,270 --> 00:22:49,619
Speaker 2: on the show in our connections, Cobra in 86. That

409
00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:52,380
Speaker 2: one also had Stallone in it, along with Brigitte Nielsen

410
00:22:52,740 --> 00:22:57,440
Speaker 2: and Brian Thompson, Shao Kahn from Mortal Kombat Annihilation.

411
00:22:57,750 --> 00:23:00,130
Speaker 3: I haven't seen Cobra, but I kind of want to.

412
00:23:00,150 --> 00:23:06,170
Speaker 3: I think I've heard that it's over-the-top pursuit of 80s

413
00:23:06,270 --> 00:23:08,890
Speaker 3: action movie themes actually does push it kind of into

414
00:23:08,970 --> 00:23:10,070
Speaker 3: weird territory.

415
00:23:10,090 --> 00:23:10,169
Speaker 1: Yeah.

416
00:23:10,450 --> 00:23:14,490
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that one's on my list. But one that

417
00:23:14,530 --> 00:23:19,119
Speaker 2: we've both seen before is his 89 film Leviathan, an

418
00:23:19,170 --> 00:23:23,340
Speaker 2: amazing underwater sci-fi horror film, one of several that came

419
00:23:23,460 --> 00:23:27,270
Speaker 2: out in 89. And it, again, had Peter Weller uh,

420
00:23:27,350 --> 00:23:30,350
Speaker 2: in the starring role along with a great supporting cast,

421
00:23:30,410 --> 00:23:33,250
Speaker 2: just a real fun film. One that has been on

422
00:23:33,270 --> 00:23:35,880
Speaker 2: my short list to come back around to on weird

423
00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:38,540
Speaker 2: house cinema, but I don't know, just haven't had the,

424
00:23:38,580 --> 00:23:42,280
Speaker 2: the underwater 89 buzz recently, but, uh, I think we

425
00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:43,100
Speaker 2: might come back to it.

426
00:23:43,500 --> 00:23:45,460
Speaker 3: I think we've talked about this on the show before,

427
00:23:45,500 --> 00:23:48,609
Speaker 3: but there were like five different underwater horror movies from 1989.

428
00:23:48,609 --> 00:23:51,250
Speaker 3: It was a, it was a blitz. Yeah.

429
00:23:51,430 --> 00:23:55,750
Speaker 2: The top three being the abyss, which, um, I don't

430
00:23:55,770 --> 00:23:57,619
Speaker 2: think I'd want to cover The Abyss. I remember liking it,

431
00:23:57,650 --> 00:24:00,960
Speaker 2: but it's the most mainstream of the bunch.

432
00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:03,780
Speaker 3: And then you get the VHS tape to watch the

433
00:24:03,820 --> 00:24:04,800
Speaker 3: three-hour cut.

434
00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:08,380
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, no hate for the film. It's just

435
00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:11,439
Speaker 2: maybe not a great Weird House selection. But then the

436
00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:15,850
Speaker 2: other two were definitely Leviathan and Deep Star Six. Either

437
00:24:15,890 --> 00:24:18,430
Speaker 2: of those, really, that's where the competition comes into play.

438
00:24:18,450 --> 00:24:21,190
Speaker 2: Do we watch Leviathan or do we watch Deep Star Six?

439
00:24:21,650 --> 00:24:23,169
Speaker 2: A lot of things in common between the two, but

440
00:24:23,190 --> 00:24:25,450
Speaker 2: they're also very different in their overall delivery.

441
00:24:25,750 --> 00:24:31,360
Speaker 3: I think they're both great examples of memorable deaths for

442
00:24:31,580 --> 00:24:38,040
Speaker 3: great 80s character actors. Like Leviathan has people like Daniel Stern.

443
00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:40,359
Speaker 3: Richard Crenn is in it too, isn't he?

444
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:42,330
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, he is. That's right.

445
00:24:42,830 --> 00:24:43,590
Speaker 3: And Meg Foster.

446
00:24:44,130 --> 00:24:46,530
Speaker 2: Yeah, Meg Foster has a great role in it. Yeah,

447
00:24:46,630 --> 00:24:49,430
Speaker 2: as a corporate villain. Terrific cast, top to bottom.

448
00:24:49,700 --> 00:24:56,030
Speaker 3: But Deep Star Six has one of the corporate creeps

449
00:24:56,090 --> 00:24:59,450
Speaker 3: from RoboCop, one of the OCP guys, not Dick Jones,

450
00:24:59,490 --> 00:25:01,870
Speaker 3: but his rival, the other guy, I forget the character's name.

451
00:25:02,470 --> 00:25:05,730
Speaker 3: But the actor who plays him goes through explosive decompression

452
00:25:05,850 --> 00:25:08,050
Speaker 3: in Deep Star Six, a very memorable scene.

453
00:25:08,070 --> 00:25:12,580
Speaker 2: Yeah, so either of those. But with Cosmatos, Leviathan was

454
00:25:12,619 --> 00:25:18,119
Speaker 2: his entry in this sub-genre. He also had the movie

455
00:25:18,420 --> 00:25:22,469
Speaker 2: Tombstone in 93, the Western. Probably, I would guess, his

456
00:25:22,530 --> 00:25:25,970
Speaker 2: most well-known and successful film. It has a terrific cast,

457
00:25:26,010 --> 00:25:28,570
Speaker 2: headlined by Kurt Russell and Val Kilmer. Like, this is

458
00:25:28,609 --> 00:25:32,709
Speaker 2: a film I remember growing up seeing it, liking it

459
00:25:32,990 --> 00:25:34,750
Speaker 2: quite a bit. But it was also a film that

460
00:25:34,890 --> 00:25:38,330
Speaker 2: everybody seemed to like. Like, you know, it was a

461
00:25:38,350 --> 00:25:41,730
Speaker 2: cool 90s Western. And it had some great performances. And

462
00:25:41,790 --> 00:25:44,989
Speaker 2: especially Val Kilmer. Yeah, very memorable in that.

463
00:25:45,380 --> 00:25:49,919
Speaker 3: He plays Doc Watson, or not Doc Watson, Doc Watson,

464
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:55,960
Speaker 3: the guitar player. No, yeah, Doc Holiday, who has tuberculosis

465
00:25:56,020 --> 00:25:56,640
Speaker 3: or something.

466
00:25:56,720 --> 00:25:58,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.

467
00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:01,760
Speaker 3: So he's always coughing, but he's also full of charm

468
00:26:01,820 --> 00:26:02,700
Speaker 3: and devilish wit.

469
00:26:03,300 --> 00:26:04,700
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.

470
00:26:04,780 --> 00:26:06,520
Speaker 3: I've never seen it in full. I would like to.

471
00:26:06,940 --> 00:26:09,380
Speaker 2: Yeah, I remember it as being a lot of fun. Again,

472
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:12,380
Speaker 2: I haven't seen it since VHS days, but a lot

473
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:16,409
Speaker 2: of fun. And then, finally, Shadow Conspiracy in 97. This

474
00:26:16,430 --> 00:26:18,830
Speaker 2: was an action thriller that I have not seen, starring

475
00:26:19,250 --> 00:26:22,950
Speaker 2: Charlie Sheen, Donald Sutherland, and Linda Hamilton. This was also

476
00:26:22,970 --> 00:26:25,230
Speaker 2: the year that George's wife died, and then I think

477
00:26:25,290 --> 00:26:28,990
Speaker 2: various personal health struggles prevented him from helming another film

478
00:26:29,150 --> 00:26:32,230
Speaker 2: after this. But, I mean, you look at the films

479
00:26:32,270 --> 00:26:37,949
Speaker 2: that he directed, especially these North American, like, 80s action

480
00:26:37,990 --> 00:26:41,380
Speaker 2: and action-adjacent films, you know, quite a mark he ends

481
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:45,119
Speaker 2: up leaving. And coming back to his son, Panos, I

482
00:26:45,140 --> 00:26:47,940
Speaker 2: think Panos has done a tremendous job in his own right,

483
00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:52,070
Speaker 2: in ways playing into some of the sensibilities of his father,

484
00:26:52,109 --> 00:26:56,950
Speaker 2: but also clearly drawing on these other wilder, weirder, psychedelic

485
00:26:56,990 --> 00:27:01,229
Speaker 2: genre influences. And for me, he continues to stand out

486
00:27:01,290 --> 00:27:04,250
Speaker 2: as one of the contemporary directors out there that I'm

487
00:27:04,270 --> 00:27:07,210
Speaker 2: always interested in. Whatever he's working on, I'm going to

488
00:27:07,250 --> 00:27:09,790
Speaker 2: see it. I want to know what he's working towards

489
00:27:10,310 --> 00:27:11,890
Speaker 2: and what the final form might look like.

490
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:15,609
Speaker 3: There is one part in that interview with Peter Weller

491
00:27:15,710 --> 00:27:20,250
Speaker 3: on the Vinegar Syndrome disc where he's talking about the differences.

492
00:27:20,470 --> 00:27:25,590
Speaker 3: He really contrasts Cosmatos the Elder with Panos and talks

493
00:27:25,609 --> 00:27:30,189
Speaker 3: about how their personalities are complete opposite. So he characterizes

494
00:27:31,020 --> 00:27:38,399
Speaker 3: George Cosmatos as extremely... loud and forceful and persuasive and

495
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:41,350
Speaker 3: aggressive and like a really like fun guy to hang

496
00:27:41,430 --> 00:27:45,869
Speaker 3: out with but he also describes him as stereotypically mediterranean

497
00:27:46,109 --> 00:27:47,970
Speaker 3: in that he's like going to be just yelling at

498
00:27:48,010 --> 00:27:50,210
Speaker 3: you and putting his hands on you while he's talking

499
00:27:50,230 --> 00:27:55,440
Speaker 3: um and weller says he actually personally became louder through

500
00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:59,280
Speaker 3: his friendship with george uh whereas he you know says

501
00:27:59,340 --> 00:28:02,909
Speaker 3: that the Panos is exactly the opposite. He's like incredibly

502
00:28:02,990 --> 00:28:07,230
Speaker 3: quiet and reserved and thoughtful. And Weller, Weller chalks this

503
00:28:07,310 --> 00:28:09,690
Speaker 3: up to him not being raised in the Mediterranean. I

504
00:28:09,730 --> 00:28:12,950
Speaker 3: don't know if that's actually the reason, but, uh, yeah,

505
00:28:13,100 --> 00:28:13,859
Speaker 3: I thought that was funny.

506
00:28:15,100 --> 00:28:17,359
Speaker 2: All right. Well, let's, let's move on to the, the

507
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:20,179
Speaker 2: writing here. Uh, so again, this was a novel. This

508
00:28:20,220 --> 00:28:24,080
Speaker 2: was originally a novel titled the visitor by Chauncey G. Parker,

509
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:25,679
Speaker 2: the third of the 1926 through 2013, former aid, um,

510
00:28:29,430 --> 00:28:33,090
Speaker 2: to former UN ambassador Adlai Stevenson, and then later an

511
00:28:33,130 --> 00:28:36,570
Speaker 2: English professor. This is his best known, possibly his only

512
00:28:36,630 --> 00:28:40,290
Speaker 2: published work, published novel anyway. I was looking around for more.

513
00:28:40,310 --> 00:28:42,430
Speaker 2: It looked like there was maybe a title out there

514
00:28:42,470 --> 00:28:45,020
Speaker 2: that might have been another work of fiction that he published,

515
00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:47,940
Speaker 2: but this maybe is the only one. But he was

516
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:50,280
Speaker 2: out in paperback. This was like the heyday. I guess

517
00:28:50,300 --> 00:28:54,320
Speaker 2: people might have purchased this at the airport or something. Again,

518
00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:56,580
Speaker 2: I haven't read it. If anyone out there has read

519
00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:58,760
Speaker 2: the original novel, and it does seem to be readily

520
00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:02,720
Speaker 2: available still. You can pick it up in physical form

521
00:29:02,790 --> 00:29:06,870
Speaker 2: or digital. If you've read The Visitor, then certainly write

522
00:29:06,990 --> 00:29:09,530
Speaker 2: in and answer some of these questions we have about

523
00:29:09,590 --> 00:29:11,510
Speaker 2: the story and the original story.

524
00:29:12,050 --> 00:29:14,620
Speaker 3: As far as I know, no relation to the movie

525
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:17,820
Speaker 3: The Visitor, which may come up on Weird House one day.

526
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, because that's an Atlanta film for sure.

527
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:20,300
Speaker 1: Yeah.

528
00:29:21,350 --> 00:29:21,590
Speaker 3: All right.

529
00:29:21,610 --> 00:29:24,650
Speaker 2: So that's the original book. And then the screenplay adaptation

530
00:29:25,090 --> 00:29:29,380
Speaker 2: was by Brian Taggart, who lived 1938 through 2019. American

531
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:33,460
Speaker 2: writer who'd worked in theater and non-genre TV work before

532
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:37,690
Speaker 2: being drawn into horror. He wrote the 1977 TV movie

533
00:29:37,710 --> 00:29:40,920
Speaker 2: The Spell, followed by the 82 film Theon. Visiting Hours.

534
00:29:41,380 --> 00:29:44,400
Speaker 2: This is the one where Michael Ironside plays a serial killer.

535
00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:47,850
Speaker 2: And it has a very signature... I remember this VHS

536
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:51,550
Speaker 2: box from when I was a little kid in Canada

537
00:29:51,750 --> 00:29:55,670
Speaker 2: going to a video rental store that was in somebody's house.

538
00:29:56,430 --> 00:29:56,530
Speaker 1: And.

539
00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:59,390
Speaker 2: they had the horror boxes there. And I remember this

540
00:29:59,450 --> 00:30:01,090
Speaker 2: one cause it has like a, it's kind of like

541
00:30:01,170 --> 00:30:05,810
Speaker 2: pixelated skull on, uh, you know, that it's, it's, it's

542
00:30:05,850 --> 00:30:08,550
Speaker 2: kind of like partially embedded in my mind. So, but

543
00:30:08,610 --> 00:30:09,630
Speaker 2: on the top, off the top of my head, I

544
00:30:09,650 --> 00:30:11,950
Speaker 2: can't remember if it's supposed to be like a, um, uh,

545
00:30:13,050 --> 00:30:15,170
Speaker 2: you know, like a skyline or if it's like a

546
00:30:15,190 --> 00:30:17,610
Speaker 2: TV set, but it's got that skull that would, it

547
00:30:17,650 --> 00:30:18,590
Speaker 2: was very impressive.

548
00:30:19,030 --> 00:30:20,830
Speaker 3: I don't know. It's just hard for me to imagine

549
00:30:20,870 --> 00:30:22,210
Speaker 3: Michael Ironside as a killer.

550
00:30:22,230 --> 00:30:29,430
Speaker 2: Yeah. But, um, uh, speaking of strong, uh, Strong Canadian connections, right?

551
00:30:30,530 --> 00:30:33,970
Speaker 2: Let's see. Taggart followed up of Unknown Origin with work

552
00:30:34,010 --> 00:30:38,630
Speaker 2: on the TV series V. 1985's The New Kids. The

553
00:30:38,630 --> 00:30:42,459
Speaker 2: 1986 Rutger Hauer movie Wanted Dead or Alive. I'm not

554
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:46,040
Speaker 2: sure I've seen this one. He's not a blind ninja

555
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:47,740
Speaker 2: in this one.

556
00:30:48,140 --> 00:30:48,960
Speaker 3: What is that one called?

557
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:51,360
Speaker 2: Blind Justice, something like that.

558
00:30:51,380 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 3: Blind Fury.

559
00:30:52,220 --> 00:30:52,959
Speaker 2: Blind Fury, okay.

560
00:30:52,980 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 3: Yeah.

561
00:30:54,330 --> 00:30:59,090
Speaker 2: Let's see. Taggart also wrote 1988's Poltergeist 3. This is

562
00:30:59,150 --> 00:31:02,390
Speaker 2: definitely a high-rise movie. This is like Poltergeist in the high-rise, right?

563
00:31:02,950 --> 00:31:03,150
Speaker 1: Yeah.

564
00:31:03,260 --> 00:31:08,120
Speaker 2: I never saw this concept. He did The Omen 4,

565
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:11,360
Speaker 2: The Awakening. This was a TV film. And he did

566
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:15,680
Speaker 2: 1997's Trucks, an adaptation of the same Stephen King story

567
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:18,780
Speaker 2: that King himself adapted into Maximum Overdrive.

568
00:31:18,980 --> 00:31:19,960
Speaker 3: They did it twice?

569
00:31:21,670 --> 00:31:25,160
Speaker 2: Somebody did it a second time. I don't know. Um,

570
00:31:26,150 --> 00:31:29,530
Speaker 2: I mean, maximum overdrive makes some definite choices in adapting

571
00:31:29,710 --> 00:31:33,080
Speaker 2: the original King story. The original King story is less, um,

572
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:36,360
Speaker 2: believe it or not less over the top. So, uh,

573
00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:38,920
Speaker 2: presumably that's what they set out to do with trucks,

574
00:31:38,940 --> 00:31:42,030
Speaker 2: but I haven't seen 97 trucks. I've only seen maximum

575
00:31:42,070 --> 00:31:43,830
Speaker 2: overdrive and read the original story.

576
00:31:44,700 --> 00:31:48,900
Speaker 3: Does the story have a vending machine kill somebody by

577
00:31:48,980 --> 00:31:50,660
Speaker 3: shooting cans into their crotch?

578
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:53,760
Speaker 2: I don't think so. The main thing I remember about

579
00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:55,930
Speaker 2: the short story is it had a very evocative ending

580
00:31:56,010 --> 00:31:58,990
Speaker 2: where a human character is looking up into the sky

581
00:31:59,030 --> 00:32:01,810
Speaker 2: and he sees airliners flying and he's wondering if there

582
00:32:01,830 --> 00:32:03,970
Speaker 2: are any people on them or if it's just the

583
00:32:04,010 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 2: machines they're carrying on. So it had some nice moments,

584
00:32:08,340 --> 00:32:10,600
Speaker 2: as I recall. That's the only beat from it that

585
00:32:10,620 --> 00:32:14,720
Speaker 2: I distinctly remember. But anyway, Brian Taggart, there's an interview

586
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:17,140
Speaker 2: with him on the Arrow disc. I'm assuming this is

587
00:32:17,180 --> 00:32:20,820
Speaker 2: probably on the Vinegar Syndrome release as well. And it's

588
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:22,940
Speaker 2: a pretty fun little interview. He talks, breaks down some

589
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:25,780
Speaker 2: of the challenges of the project and also, you know,

590
00:32:25,820 --> 00:32:27,960
Speaker 2: how it was a critical hit, but failed to find

591
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:30,780
Speaker 2: an audience. And he praised some of the performances in

592
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:33,510
Speaker 2: the film, especially Peter Weller, just saying like Peter Weller

593
00:32:33,550 --> 00:32:36,310
Speaker 2: was able to like hit some of these lines that

594
00:32:36,330 --> 00:32:39,170
Speaker 2: he'd written and or adapted in such a way that

595
00:32:39,230 --> 00:32:42,270
Speaker 2: he was able to like encapsulate everything he was going

596
00:32:42,310 --> 00:32:44,170
Speaker 2: for with the screenplay, which is pretty cool.

597
00:32:44,890 --> 00:32:49,210
Speaker 3: It's a good feeling as a writer when somebody performs

598
00:32:49,270 --> 00:32:50,430
Speaker 3: your material well.

599
00:32:50,890 --> 00:32:54,370
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, or elevates it. Yeah, that's the best part.

600
00:32:55,390 --> 00:32:57,810
Speaker 2: All right, so let's get into the cast. We're talking

601
00:32:57,830 --> 00:33:02,130
Speaker 2: about Peter Weller already. He plays Bart Hughes. Weller was

602
00:33:02,150 --> 00:33:05,230
Speaker 2: born in 1947. This is our third Peter Weller Weird

603
00:33:05,270 --> 00:33:07,950
Speaker 2: House selection as we've covered 87's Robocop and 2022's The Viewing.

604
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:15,100
Speaker 2: That's the one directed by Panos Cosmatos. Acclaimed American actor

605
00:33:15,140 --> 00:33:18,360
Speaker 2: of stage, screen, and TV. Also a TV director and

606
00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 2: Italian Renaissance art history expert. He has a PhD in

607
00:33:22,460 --> 00:33:22,920
Speaker 2: the subject.

608
00:33:23,380 --> 00:33:26,880
Speaker 3: He mentions this a couple times in the interview. It's

609
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:28,970
Speaker 3: like he does want you to know that he has

610
00:33:29,010 --> 00:33:30,350
Speaker 3: a serious career as well.

611
00:33:32,830 --> 00:33:36,750
Speaker 2: Outside of his academic career, he's probably best known for

612
00:33:36,790 --> 00:33:41,970
Speaker 2: the first two Robocop films for 84's Buckaroo Banzai, 89's Leviathan,

613
00:33:42,050 --> 00:33:46,680
Speaker 2: and 91's Naked Lunch, the Cronenberg film. But Of Unknown

614
00:33:46,740 --> 00:33:49,620
Speaker 2: Origin is before all of this. So prior to Of

615
00:33:49,700 --> 00:33:53,380
Speaker 2: Unknown Origin, his TV credits went back to 73, like

616
00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:57,980
Speaker 2: very small parts. His first feature film was 79's Butch

617
00:33:58,140 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 2: and Sundance, The Early Days, followed by Just Tell Me

618
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:05,250
Speaker 2: What You Want in 1980, both supporting roles. And then

619
00:34:05,290 --> 00:34:07,190
Speaker 2: in 82, he had a supporting role in the Alan

620
00:34:07,230 --> 00:34:11,290
Speaker 2: Parker film starring Albert Finney, Shoot the Moon. And next

621
00:34:11,430 --> 00:34:14,029
Speaker 2: came Of Unknown Origin. So this was, as far as

622
00:34:14,070 --> 00:34:16,450
Speaker 2: I can tell, his first starring film role.

623
00:34:17,380 --> 00:34:21,899
Speaker 3: Yeah. And in that interview, he starts off talking like

624
00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:23,839
Speaker 3: the very first thing he talks about there is the

625
00:34:24,020 --> 00:34:27,420
Speaker 3: other films he had done in his career before doing

626
00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:30,700
Speaker 3: Of Unknown Origin. Almost like he's trying to emphasize a

627
00:34:31,010 --> 00:34:33,950
Speaker 3: contrast of a sort. He's like, you know, my first

628
00:34:34,270 --> 00:34:36,509
Speaker 3: few movies, I was very lucky because I got to

629
00:34:36,550 --> 00:34:39,710
Speaker 3: work with great directors like, you know, Alan Parker and

630
00:34:39,770 --> 00:34:43,330
Speaker 3: Sidney Lumet, uh, and with actors like, uh, Ali McGraw

631
00:34:43,370 --> 00:34:46,290
Speaker 3: and Albert Finney and Diane Keaton. And then he's like,

632
00:34:46,330 --> 00:34:47,850
Speaker 3: and then one day I got a call about this

633
00:34:47,969 --> 00:34:54,069
Speaker 3: rat movie. Um, so I don't know. And he doesn't, um,

634
00:34:54,510 --> 00:34:58,410
Speaker 3: disparage the movie. He's like very positive and complimentary about

635
00:34:58,469 --> 00:35:01,320
Speaker 3: it in the interview. But I do think he's trying

636
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:06,540
Speaker 3: to emphasize a contrast that he didn't start in B-movies

637
00:35:06,620 --> 00:35:11,390
Speaker 3: or whatever. His earliest movies were with serious directors making

638
00:35:11,750 --> 00:35:15,430
Speaker 3: acclaimed dramas, and then he moved on to Of Unknown Origin.

639
00:35:15,450 --> 00:35:17,830
Speaker 2: Yeah, but he really does seem to give it his

640
00:35:17,930 --> 00:35:18,350
Speaker 2: all here.

641
00:35:18,630 --> 00:35:19,069
Speaker 3: Oh, yeah.

642
00:35:19,250 --> 00:35:22,430
Speaker 2: And I think that speaks to his professionalism. But also,

643
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:25,379
Speaker 2: looking back, it could also be the fact that this

644
00:35:25,460 --> 00:35:28,820
Speaker 2: was a big shot for him. He's starring in a

645
00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:32,060
Speaker 2: film now. He's, he's got the lead role and he's

646
00:35:32,100 --> 00:35:34,200
Speaker 2: got to deliver on it. He's going to do the research.

647
00:35:34,260 --> 00:35:37,160
Speaker 2: He's going to provide the input. And, and also it

648
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:39,100
Speaker 2: sounds like too, you know, maybe a little, a little

649
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:41,549
Speaker 2: touchy at times about the way things were coming through and,

650
00:35:41,570 --> 00:35:43,390
Speaker 2: you know, not being able to see the full picture.

651
00:35:43,450 --> 00:35:44,589
Speaker 3: Right. Yeah, that's right.

652
00:35:44,610 --> 00:35:49,009
Speaker 2: Uh, so you mentioned that he ends up taking this

653
00:35:49,070 --> 00:35:51,670
Speaker 2: detour into the genre work and certainly that we see

654
00:35:51,710 --> 00:35:54,370
Speaker 2: that to a large extent, because up next we get

655
00:35:54,370 --> 00:35:57,590
Speaker 2: 84 is the adventures of Buckaroo Banzai across the eighth dimension.

656
00:35:58,090 --> 00:36:01,650
Speaker 2: which is definitely in the weird cult zone. Uh, but, uh,

657
00:36:02,250 --> 00:36:04,529
Speaker 2: and then from there, you know, onto the, many of

658
00:36:04,590 --> 00:36:06,370
Speaker 2: the films you're more familiar with, including the ones I

659
00:36:06,410 --> 00:36:10,570
Speaker 2: mentioned already, but, but for this film, like people took note, uh,

660
00:36:10,860 --> 00:36:14,140
Speaker 2: he won best actor at the Paris film festival for

661
00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:17,840
Speaker 2: of unknown origin, uh, and George P. Cosmatos also won.

662
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:20,450
Speaker 2: So it was, uh, uh, I think earlier on, uh,

663
00:36:21,090 --> 00:36:25,839
Speaker 2: certainly a critical hit, uh, with key critics. And, The

664
00:36:25,860 --> 00:36:29,040
Speaker 2: disappointment was that it didn't find the larger commercial audience

665
00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:29,660
Speaker 2: on top of that.

666
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:32,660
Speaker 3: Was it the Paris Film Festival, or was it specifically

667
00:36:32,700 --> 00:36:36,770
Speaker 3: the Paris Science Fiction Film Festival? Because that's what I

668
00:36:36,870 --> 00:36:38,190
Speaker 3: thought he said in the interview.

669
00:36:38,210 --> 00:36:42,090
Speaker 2: I was going off of what's on IMDb, and it

670
00:36:42,110 --> 00:36:45,710
Speaker 2: just says Paris Film Festival. But I don't know enough

671
00:36:45,750 --> 00:36:48,109
Speaker 2: about the Paris Film Festival. I don't know if this

672
00:36:48,130 --> 00:36:52,370
Speaker 2: could be wrapping up some sort of... uh, you know,

673
00:36:52,390 --> 00:36:55,190
Speaker 2: some sort of a, a genre side project that they

674
00:36:55,250 --> 00:36:57,930
Speaker 2: also do. But, um, yeah, it's, it's listed as Paris

675
00:36:57,950 --> 00:37:00,589
Speaker 2: film festival, um, yeah. Best actor in 1983.

676
00:37:00,590 --> 00:37:02,910
Speaker 3: He makes a big bit of it in the interview

677
00:37:02,989 --> 00:37:06,040
Speaker 3: where he's like, I have been nominated for, but never

678
00:37:06,060 --> 00:37:09,379
Speaker 3: won a, you know, Oscar and like names, all these

679
00:37:09,460 --> 00:37:13,400
Speaker 3: different awards, uh, that he, uh, where he's a nominee,

680
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:15,660
Speaker 3: but never a winner. But then he says, the one

681
00:37:15,739 --> 00:37:19,420
Speaker 3: thing I actually won best actor for was this thing. Um,

682
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:23,180
Speaker 3: And it was, I thought he said like the Paris,

683
00:37:23,700 --> 00:37:25,480
Speaker 3: I don't know if it was science fiction and fantasy

684
00:37:25,540 --> 00:37:27,819
Speaker 3: or science fiction awards or something like that, but maybe

685
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:29,680
Speaker 3: it's just Paris film festival. I don't, I don't know.

686
00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:32,009
Speaker 2: Yeah. At any rate, I mean, I'd say he earned

687
00:37:32,030 --> 00:37:33,549
Speaker 2: it cause he's really, really good in this.

688
00:37:33,610 --> 00:37:34,130
Speaker 3: He's great.

689
00:37:34,150 --> 00:37:36,029
Speaker 2: And I feel like the film, a film like this

690
00:37:36,090 --> 00:37:39,350
Speaker 2: really needs a solid performance grounding at all. And it

691
00:37:39,469 --> 00:37:43,830
Speaker 2: changes the movie dramatically depending on what sort of, uh, actor,

692
00:37:43,870 --> 00:37:45,880
Speaker 2: what sort of performance you would have at the center.

693
00:37:46,300 --> 00:37:48,960
Speaker 2: You know, you could imagine if you had like a real, um,

694
00:37:49,860 --> 00:37:53,600
Speaker 2: I don't know, like a real like energetic and physical performance,

695
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:55,660
Speaker 2: not to say that Peter Wellers isn't physical, but I

696
00:37:55,700 --> 00:37:59,670
Speaker 2: feel like he has this steely cerebral quality to his

697
00:37:59,710 --> 00:38:03,150
Speaker 2: performance that works especially well here. You know, one of

698
00:38:03,190 --> 00:38:05,810
Speaker 2: those performances where you can see the gears turning, you

699
00:38:06,010 --> 00:38:09,529
Speaker 2: get the sense of the emotional and psychological weight of

700
00:38:09,590 --> 00:38:12,530
Speaker 2: everything that's happening, even when he's like physically not moving.

701
00:38:13,030 --> 00:38:18,049
Speaker 3: He comes off as naturally reserved, uh, Which is funny

702
00:38:18,090 --> 00:38:21,029
Speaker 3: because that doesn't really seem to be his personality when

703
00:38:21,050 --> 00:38:25,509
Speaker 3: you get into the interviews. But the way it comes

704
00:38:25,530 --> 00:38:28,130
Speaker 3: through in the movie is that he seems to be

705
00:38:28,150 --> 00:38:32,339
Speaker 3: a person who's naturally reserved but kind of becomes unleashed

706
00:38:33,300 --> 00:38:37,360
Speaker 3: by this situation. But yeah, so are you ready for

707
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:39,340
Speaker 3: me to talk about some more things from this interview?

708
00:38:39,380 --> 00:38:41,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because like I say, I didn't have

709
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:43,430
Speaker 2: access to this one, so this is all new to me.

710
00:38:43,820 --> 00:38:46,420
Speaker 3: One of the things that really is clear is just

711
00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:50,779
Speaker 3: how much he loved working with George Cosmatos and how

712
00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:57,009
Speaker 3: fun Cosmatos was. You get the idea that Cosmatos was

713
00:38:57,050 --> 00:39:05,090
Speaker 3: just a really intense and funny and big collaborator. Somebody

714
00:39:05,110 --> 00:39:08,350
Speaker 3: who would just roll with you and maybe improvise with

715
00:39:08,390 --> 00:39:10,509
Speaker 3: you and come up with ideas on the fly and

716
00:39:10,550 --> 00:39:12,810
Speaker 3: was just very fun to work with. And also you

717
00:39:13,090 --> 00:39:15,150
Speaker 3: sort of get the sense, like very fun to party with,

718
00:39:15,230 --> 00:39:17,990
Speaker 3: like Willard Weller talks about while they're making this movie

719
00:39:18,370 --> 00:39:20,489
Speaker 3: that they were hanging out in Montreal and he was like,

720
00:39:20,550 --> 00:39:24,250
Speaker 3: it was a really swinging town at the time. It

721
00:39:24,270 --> 00:39:27,060
Speaker 3: was like the Paris of North America. He talks about

722
00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:30,259
Speaker 3: all the good restaurants they went to and stuff. But

723
00:39:30,300 --> 00:39:35,100
Speaker 3: Weller also talks about how when he made the movie,

724
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:39,160
Speaker 3: he saw this character as very much like himself at

725
00:39:39,180 --> 00:39:41,610
Speaker 3: the time. He didn't really have a family yet. He

726
00:39:41,650 --> 00:39:44,360
Speaker 3: was a young, ambitious guy on the come up. He

727
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:47,460
Speaker 3: just started making money in these other movies. Uh, he

728
00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:50,029
Speaker 3: had a cool apartment, so it was very easy for

729
00:39:50,070 --> 00:39:53,049
Speaker 3: him to slip into this character who seemed to be

730
00:39:53,090 --> 00:39:55,560
Speaker 3: in a, in a similar situation, you know, like a,

731
00:39:55,930 --> 00:39:58,850
Speaker 3: an executive who's on the way up, who's making money

732
00:39:58,910 --> 00:40:01,310
Speaker 3: now and just like has just gotten this nice place

733
00:40:01,330 --> 00:40:07,290
Speaker 3: to live. Um, he mentions also, uh, that he apparently

734
00:40:07,770 --> 00:40:12,040
Speaker 3: loves researching new subject matter. And we'll sometimes do this

735
00:40:12,100 --> 00:40:13,779
Speaker 3: when he gets into a movie, he'll go and read

736
00:40:13,820 --> 00:40:16,899
Speaker 3: a bunch of books about whatever it's about. Uh, so

737
00:40:17,140 --> 00:40:20,380
Speaker 3: much like his character in this movie, Peter Weller actually

738
00:40:20,460 --> 00:40:24,340
Speaker 3: went down a rabbit hole researching rats. Uh, and the

739
00:40:24,380 --> 00:40:27,739
Speaker 3: crazy thing is he says that the rat speech, there's

740
00:40:27,780 --> 00:40:29,980
Speaker 3: a scene in the middle of this movie where, uh,

741
00:40:30,700 --> 00:40:34,870
Speaker 3: the character Bart, like completely like creeps out and ruins

742
00:40:34,950 --> 00:40:38,390
Speaker 3: a dinner party by giving this bizarre speech about rats.

743
00:40:39,250 --> 00:40:42,710
Speaker 3: And it turns out that this was not originally part

744
00:40:42,770 --> 00:40:47,180
Speaker 3: of the story. This was inserted by Peter Weller himself

745
00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:51,140
Speaker 3: with permission from George Cosmatos to make use of all

746
00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:54,320
Speaker 3: this reading he had done. So I don't know exactly

747
00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:56,460
Speaker 3: what the scene was like in the original story because

748
00:40:56,500 --> 00:41:00,110
Speaker 3: it does seem that there's. this idea of a dinner

749
00:41:00,170 --> 00:41:03,049
Speaker 3: party more woven into the full narrative. Maybe it was

750
00:41:03,469 --> 00:41:06,770
Speaker 3: originally a more truncated scene or something, but in the

751
00:41:06,830 --> 00:41:09,879
Speaker 3: movie he gives this long speech from his research just

752
00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:12,680
Speaker 3: about how awful rats are in every possible way.

753
00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:17,200
Speaker 2: And it is not landing with the audience. I felt

754
00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:19,859
Speaker 2: kind of seen by this because, you know, like you

755
00:41:19,900 --> 00:41:21,750
Speaker 2: and I are always having to do it to research

756
00:41:22,130 --> 00:41:24,880
Speaker 2: and really getting into some sort of a, at times,

757
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:28,780
Speaker 2: odd subject matter. And then our loved ones, our families

758
00:41:28,820 --> 00:41:31,680
Speaker 2: are the ones that have to hear about it outside

759
00:41:31,700 --> 00:41:35,230
Speaker 2: of the recording. So I think sometimes, at least from

760
00:41:35,690 --> 00:41:37,450
Speaker 2: my point of view, sometimes my family has to suffer

761
00:41:37,489 --> 00:41:39,549
Speaker 2: through some of these things and are maybe a little

762
00:41:39,570 --> 00:41:41,670
Speaker 2: sick of hearing about it. They're like, isn't it time

763
00:41:41,690 --> 00:41:43,200
Speaker 2: you go and record this so you can get it

764
00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:43,840
Speaker 2: out of your system?

765
00:41:44,700 --> 00:41:47,220
Speaker 3: It's true. I think I've kind of mastered some ways

766
00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:49,940
Speaker 3: of changing the subject when people ask me what I'm

767
00:41:49,980 --> 00:41:54,390
Speaker 3: working on, just because it's like, They are asking, but

768
00:41:54,510 --> 00:41:56,870
Speaker 3: I'm like, well, am I going to start talking about,

769
00:41:56,890 --> 00:41:58,770
Speaker 3: you know, like parasites or whatever?

770
00:41:59,050 --> 00:42:00,860
Speaker 2: Let them have it. You just let them know what

771
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:01,720
Speaker 2: you're doing.

772
00:42:01,739 --> 00:42:01,910
Speaker 1: Yeah.

773
00:42:01,930 --> 00:42:07,220
Speaker 3: Uh, another thing Weller talks about here is how living

774
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:13,339
Speaker 3: in New York necessarily entails rat consciousness because, so you

775
00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:16,600
Speaker 3: live in this, you know, big, very civilized city. There

776
00:42:16,620 --> 00:42:18,970
Speaker 3: was sort of the peak of, you know, he, he

777
00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:21,810
Speaker 3: views it as sort of a peak of civilization in

778
00:42:21,850 --> 00:42:25,200
Speaker 3: a way. But necessarily part of that is you see

779
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:27,730
Speaker 3: rats everywhere. You see them coming out of your favorite

780
00:42:27,770 --> 00:42:31,850
Speaker 3: restaurant and you're like, what were they doing inside? And

781
00:42:31,870 --> 00:42:37,070
Speaker 3: so there's this weird contrast that like rats are interwoven

782
00:42:37,570 --> 00:42:41,250
Speaker 3: in human society in such a way that like the

783
00:42:41,290 --> 00:42:44,009
Speaker 3: more human we make a place, the more we make

784
00:42:44,050 --> 00:42:46,630
Speaker 3: it kind of inevitable that there will be rats there

785
00:42:46,710 --> 00:42:48,590
Speaker 3: and maybe rats even in great abundance.

786
00:42:48,610 --> 00:42:48,700
Speaker 1: Yeah.

787
00:42:49,420 --> 00:42:52,339
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, this is true. I was researching, doing

788
00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:55,180
Speaker 2: some fresher research on rats not too long ago. And

789
00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:57,779
Speaker 2: like one of the things that you read about is that,

790
00:42:57,910 --> 00:43:01,910
Speaker 2: I mean, rats are great survivors in general. Rats are

791
00:43:01,950 --> 00:43:04,470
Speaker 2: great survivors in part of, you know, even like past

792
00:43:04,530 --> 00:43:09,569
Speaker 2: extinction events because they thrive in certain environmental conditions that

793
00:43:09,650 --> 00:43:12,370
Speaker 2: are very much like the artificial conditions that we create

794
00:43:12,489 --> 00:43:16,910
Speaker 2: through human infrastructure, right? You know, like the in the

795
00:43:16,950 --> 00:43:20,670
Speaker 2: walls of our of our homes or crawl spaces and,

796
00:43:21,070 --> 00:43:23,510
Speaker 2: you know, all the inner workings of the modern city

797
00:43:23,530 --> 00:43:26,770
Speaker 2: is certainly the modern metropolis. Like we have recreated the

798
00:43:27,370 --> 00:43:30,819
Speaker 2: sorts of environments that they do especially well in. And

799
00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:32,640
Speaker 2: then on top of that, you know, all of our

800
00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:37,000
Speaker 2: refuse and our food waste, all of this directly feeds

801
00:43:37,060 --> 00:43:39,260
Speaker 2: the rat as well. We have created like a perfect

802
00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:40,580
Speaker 2: shadow in which they can live.

803
00:43:41,219 --> 00:43:43,830
Speaker 3: I very much agree with him in this regard, this

804
00:43:44,170 --> 00:43:48,710
Speaker 3: interesting way that like civilization and certain like urban environments

805
00:43:48,770 --> 00:43:51,850
Speaker 3: just sort of push rat consciousness. And this does change

806
00:43:51,870 --> 00:43:54,370
Speaker 3: it because we have to see them. Uh, you know,

807
00:43:54,390 --> 00:43:57,550
Speaker 3: they're not always going to be hidden and those encounters

808
00:43:57,590 --> 00:44:00,290
Speaker 3: cause us to think about them and, you know, change

809
00:44:00,330 --> 00:44:03,609
Speaker 3: how we feel about them. But also there's, there's another

810
00:44:03,630 --> 00:44:06,690
Speaker 3: part where he's talking about a similar subject where I

811
00:44:06,750 --> 00:44:08,350
Speaker 3: think I'm going to have to disagree with him. He,

812
00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:11,960
Speaker 3: He gives a speech in favor of feeding feral cats

813
00:44:12,580 --> 00:44:16,140
Speaker 3: because he claims that they kill rats. So he says like,

814
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:18,799
Speaker 3: you know, in New York, you're not supposed to feed

815
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:21,440
Speaker 3: feral cats, but in Rome and Venice, he says people

816
00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:24,379
Speaker 3: feed feral cats and then you never see rats there.

817
00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:27,480
Speaker 3: First of all, I don't know if that characterization is

818
00:44:27,540 --> 00:44:29,970
Speaker 3: true that you never see rats in Rome or Venice,

819
00:44:30,820 --> 00:44:34,370
Speaker 3: but also wouldn't it be the case that if having

820
00:44:34,450 --> 00:44:38,670
Speaker 3: feral cats around does make people see fewer rats, is

821
00:44:38,710 --> 00:44:41,569
Speaker 3: it really that they're eating and killing the rats or

822
00:44:41,610 --> 00:44:43,870
Speaker 3: just that the rats are coming out in the street less,

823
00:44:43,890 --> 00:44:44,870
Speaker 3: you see them less?

824
00:44:44,890 --> 00:44:48,930
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's far more likely. I actually did

825
00:44:48,950 --> 00:44:51,310
Speaker 2: some research on this as well not too long ago.

826
00:44:51,650 --> 00:44:53,969
Speaker 2: There are studies that have looked into this, particularly with

827
00:44:54,010 --> 00:44:57,400
Speaker 2: New York City. And what they found is that on

828
00:44:57,440 --> 00:45:01,920
Speaker 2: the whole, New York City feral cats and or outdoor

829
00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:05,719
Speaker 2: cats are largely not messing with the rats like you

830
00:45:06,420 --> 00:45:09,200
Speaker 2: think of a rat like rats get fairly big not

831
00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:10,920
Speaker 2: as big as they are in this movie but fairly

832
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:15,800
Speaker 2: big they're they're very good at evading capture and predation

833
00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:18,710
Speaker 2: they are also if cornered can put up a bit

834
00:45:18,730 --> 00:45:21,610
Speaker 2: of a fight and for most feral cats in New

835
00:45:21,630 --> 00:45:24,609
Speaker 2: York City it's not worth the effort there's just gonna

836
00:45:24,650 --> 00:45:27,770
Speaker 2: be an easier meal out there than a rat be

837
00:45:27,910 --> 00:45:30,879
Speaker 2: it a bird or or a handout or, you know,

838
00:45:30,910 --> 00:45:33,439
Speaker 2: something that's been thrown away. They're just far easier things

839
00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:36,339
Speaker 2: to get than a rat. And so they're not really

840
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:38,880
Speaker 2: going after the rat. So this idea that a feral

841
00:45:38,900 --> 00:45:41,279
Speaker 2: cat population is going to keep that in check, not

842
00:45:41,340 --> 00:45:43,600
Speaker 2: really true. It just may drive it out of sight

843
00:45:43,620 --> 00:45:44,620
Speaker 2: a little more, if anything.

844
00:45:45,020 --> 00:45:49,219
Speaker 3: Another thing I would think, I'm no expert on, you know,

845
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:51,500
Speaker 3: rat animal control, but I would also tend to think

846
00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:55,239
Speaker 3: putting food out for cats means you're also inadvertently putting

847
00:45:55,300 --> 00:45:56,280
Speaker 3: food out for rats.

848
00:45:56,650 --> 00:45:56,850
Speaker 1: Yeah.

849
00:45:56,930 --> 00:46:00,649
Speaker 2: I mean, rats are opportunistic omnivores. They're going to eat

850
00:46:00,750 --> 00:46:02,570
Speaker 2: a lot of different things. And that's one of the

851
00:46:02,630 --> 00:46:03,950
Speaker 2: reasons they're such great survivors.

852
00:46:05,530 --> 00:46:10,240
Speaker 3: Anyway, another thing, this was a funny digression in this interview.

853
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:14,920
Speaker 3: Peter Weller says, I don't look at movies. He quotes

854
00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:19,620
Speaker 3: fellow actor Christopher Walken, whom Weller claims once told him, Peter,

855
00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:22,900
Speaker 3: I don't watch movies because if they're good, I'm jealous.

856
00:46:23,570 --> 00:46:25,490
Speaker 3: I'm jealous that he's not in them. And if they're bad,

857
00:46:25,590 --> 00:46:28,130
Speaker 3: I'm sorry I watched. Sorry I spent my time on them.

858
00:46:28,930 --> 00:46:31,420
Speaker 3: So I guess maybe that's a dilemma for some actors.

859
00:46:32,460 --> 00:46:34,660
Speaker 3: I don't know how true this really is that Peter

860
00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:37,780
Speaker 3: Weller never watches movies. But he says he did watch

861
00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:42,420
Speaker 3: Of Unknown Origin recently at an Academy screening with his son.

862
00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:45,109
Speaker 3: And he says he was surprised how good he thought

863
00:46:45,140 --> 00:46:47,569
Speaker 3: it was and how good he thought his own performance was.

864
00:46:47,610 --> 00:46:50,640
Speaker 3: He was proud of it. Um, he, he talks about

865
00:46:50,700 --> 00:46:53,460
Speaker 3: how Cosmodos, the elder gave him a lot of room

866
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:56,100
Speaker 3: to improvise and like fill out the character with things

867
00:46:56,180 --> 00:46:59,660
Speaker 3: that weren't in the script. Uh, and I think this

868
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:05,470
Speaker 3: ran against, um, some things that gave him pause when

869
00:47:05,530 --> 00:47:08,870
Speaker 3: he was actually making the movie. Like he talked about

870
00:47:08,950 --> 00:47:11,210
Speaker 3: the experience of, this was the first movie he ever

871
00:47:11,250 --> 00:47:13,569
Speaker 3: made where he got to review dailies. So the other

872
00:47:13,590 --> 00:47:16,629
Speaker 3: movies he'd made, he never got to look at dailies. Um,

873
00:47:16,810 --> 00:47:18,870
Speaker 3: and when he watched them for the first time on

874
00:47:18,910 --> 00:47:22,150
Speaker 3: this movie, he reacted terribly. Like he thought it looked awful.

875
00:47:22,190 --> 00:47:25,890
Speaker 3: He thought his own performance was bad. And, uh, and

876
00:47:25,930 --> 00:47:28,569
Speaker 3: George tried to assure him like, no, no, no, this

877
00:47:28,700 --> 00:47:30,660
Speaker 3: you're doing great. Everything is going to come together. Uh,

878
00:47:31,469 --> 00:47:33,660
Speaker 3: and it'll, it'll all make sense and look great once

879
00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:36,060
Speaker 3: we have the editing and the narrative, uh, you know,

880
00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:39,839
Speaker 3: in sequence. And Weller agreed later once he saw the

881
00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:42,300
Speaker 3: whole movie put together that it did work out great,

882
00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:45,339
Speaker 3: but he, he apparently just can't stand looking at his

883
00:47:45,450 --> 00:47:48,850
Speaker 3: own acting piecemeal, like one shot or scene at a

884
00:47:48,890 --> 00:47:51,489
Speaker 3: time in the dailies. And I can imagine that could

885
00:47:51,530 --> 00:47:54,210
Speaker 3: be true. I don't know. Like if you're, if I

886
00:47:54,230 --> 00:47:57,480
Speaker 3: don't know, I've never had this experience myself, obviously, but it, it,

887
00:47:59,110 --> 00:48:02,290
Speaker 3: It seems like it might be a little jarring to

888
00:48:02,370 --> 00:48:06,210
Speaker 3: see your own performance divorced from the narrative and the

889
00:48:06,310 --> 00:48:07,830
Speaker 3: experience of the finished product.

890
00:48:08,730 --> 00:48:09,170
Speaker 2: Yeah.

891
00:48:09,230 --> 00:48:09,390
Speaker 3: Yeah.

892
00:48:09,410 --> 00:48:12,930
Speaker 2: And obviously it's a complex situation for an actor to

893
00:48:12,989 --> 00:48:15,550
Speaker 2: view their own work. And there are all these other factors.

894
00:48:15,590 --> 00:48:17,969
Speaker 2: Like you were there when the sausage was made and

895
00:48:18,010 --> 00:48:20,070
Speaker 2: you're bringing all of that in. So you can't really,

896
00:48:20,090 --> 00:48:23,799
Speaker 2: or it would be very difficult to really objectively view

897
00:48:23,910 --> 00:48:27,120
Speaker 2: your own performance because you're, you know, the whole story

898
00:48:27,140 --> 00:48:31,760
Speaker 2: that went into it, you have like emotional moments. connection

899
00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:36,760
Speaker 2: to everything on the other side of the camera. It's

900
00:48:37,239 --> 00:48:38,660
Speaker 2: kind of neat to hear, though, that he came back

901
00:48:38,700 --> 00:48:40,400
Speaker 2: to it and was like, yeah, it's good. It's a

902
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:41,299
Speaker 2: good performance, good film.

903
00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:46,149
Speaker 3: One last thing from this interview is Weller talking about

904
00:48:46,270 --> 00:48:48,730
Speaker 3: the themes of the movie. This is one area where

905
00:48:48,790 --> 00:48:51,290
Speaker 3: I really did not end up agreeing with him. He

906
00:48:52,610 --> 00:48:54,790
Speaker 3: was trying to say, what does he think the main

907
00:48:54,930 --> 00:48:59,880
Speaker 3: theme of unknown origin is it's sort of that nature

908
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:05,000
Speaker 3: is inescapable that like even within urban civilization natural life

909
00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:08,470
Speaker 3: can be hidden but it can't be conquered or eliminated

910
00:49:08,489 --> 00:49:11,260
Speaker 3: it's always going to creep in and it will survive

911
00:49:11,260 --> 00:49:14,839
Speaker 3: and evade our attempts to tame it he connects this

912
00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:18,130
Speaker 3: to like a George Carlin bit about how you know uh,

913
00:49:18,810 --> 00:49:22,890
Speaker 3: environmentalism is sometimes framed as protecting earth, but actually earth

914
00:49:22,989 --> 00:49:24,930
Speaker 3: is going to be fine. It's we that need to

915
00:49:24,989 --> 00:49:28,190
Speaker 3: be protected, you know, from it changing in ways that

916
00:49:28,230 --> 00:49:32,469
Speaker 3: harm us, uh, which is not completely true, but partially true.

917
00:49:32,510 --> 00:49:36,310
Speaker 3: There's some truth to that. Um, there, uh, but I,

918
00:49:37,390 --> 00:49:40,390
Speaker 3: I could see how you could view that as the

919
00:49:40,410 --> 00:49:42,120
Speaker 3: theme of the movie, but that's not what I got

920
00:49:42,180 --> 00:49:46,850
Speaker 3: from watching it. Like, doesn't... Bart has a triumphant victory

921
00:49:46,910 --> 00:49:49,090
Speaker 3: over the rat in the end. Like, he kills the rat.

922
00:49:49,150 --> 00:49:52,110
Speaker 3: He solves the problem. It seemed to me that the

923
00:49:52,130 --> 00:49:55,350
Speaker 3: themes were more about human psychology than about, like, nature

924
00:49:55,530 --> 00:50:01,089
Speaker 3: or ecology. It's like about pride and destructive obsession.

925
00:50:01,110 --> 00:50:03,870
Speaker 2: I think so as well. I mean, but on the

926
00:50:03,910 --> 00:50:07,120
Speaker 2: other hand, it is... It is a rich enough text

927
00:50:07,160 --> 00:50:09,620
Speaker 2: that I think you can apply different interpretations to it.

928
00:50:11,580 --> 00:50:13,400
Speaker 2: I think you can look at the rat as a

929
00:50:13,440 --> 00:50:17,140
Speaker 2: number of different things in life. And I think if

930
00:50:17,239 --> 00:50:19,140
Speaker 2: one thing is true of life, there will always be

931
00:50:19,180 --> 00:50:23,700
Speaker 2: a rat. Depending on where you are, there's a very

932
00:50:23,719 --> 00:50:25,900
Speaker 2: good chance it'll be an actual rat. But it could

933
00:50:25,920 --> 00:50:28,140
Speaker 2: be a rat of different sorts. You're going to find

934
00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:31,430
Speaker 2: yourself in a situation, perhaps, like our character, where you

935
00:50:31,469 --> 00:50:34,760
Speaker 2: think everything is going swell. Things are where they need

936
00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:37,980
Speaker 2: to be, and you are, above all things, in control.

937
00:50:38,980 --> 00:50:43,280
Speaker 2: But then there is going to be this instigator, this force,

938
00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:46,920
Speaker 2: if not this actual intelligence out there that is working

939
00:50:46,980 --> 00:50:49,660
Speaker 2: against you. And how are you going to respond to that?

940
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:52,120
Speaker 2: You don't have any control over it. You only have

941
00:50:52,160 --> 00:50:55,450
Speaker 2: control over your reaction to it. And this film, being

942
00:50:56,050 --> 00:50:58,710
Speaker 2: a horror film and a drama, It portrays a man

943
00:50:58,750 --> 00:51:01,489
Speaker 2: who very much is not in control of his reaction.

944
00:51:02,180 --> 00:51:04,219
Speaker 2: He is not in control at all. Maybe at the

945
00:51:04,260 --> 00:51:06,859
Speaker 2: very end, he begins to regain that control. Yeah.

946
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:09,560
Speaker 3: You're watching him lose his grip. Yeah.

947
00:51:10,080 --> 00:51:13,160
Speaker 2: Yeah. But in a very, I think, very believable and

948
00:51:13,480 --> 00:51:15,500
Speaker 2: nerve-wracking way. So, yeah, very well done.

949
00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:26,960
Speaker 3: Okay, should we talk about some of the rest of

950
00:51:26,980 --> 00:51:27,500
Speaker 3: the cast?

951
00:51:27,880 --> 00:51:29,340
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's do, and I'm not going to go in

952
00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:31,620
Speaker 2: the build order for the rest of the cast. I'm

953
00:51:31,640 --> 00:51:33,779
Speaker 2: going to go in like by family faction order. I

954
00:51:33,800 --> 00:51:36,860
Speaker 2: think that's going to be the most sensible. So beginning

955
00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:39,330
Speaker 2: with the Hughes family, we've already talked about Bart, but

956
00:51:39,350 --> 00:51:42,670
Speaker 2: he also has a wife and a child. His wife

957
00:51:42,950 --> 00:51:46,510
Speaker 2: is Meg, Meg Hughes, and she's played by Shannon Tweed,

958
00:51:46,650 --> 00:51:52,250
Speaker 2: born 1957. This is Newfoundland's own playboy, playmate of the

959
00:51:52,310 --> 00:51:56,120
Speaker 2: year in 82. And that's, that's not, Newfoundland Playboy. That's

960
00:51:56,480 --> 00:51:59,870
Speaker 2: like worldwide Playboy. There's no such thing as just Newfoundland Playboy.

961
00:52:00,590 --> 00:52:02,810
Speaker 2: But Chan and Tweed rather.

962
00:52:02,830 --> 00:52:04,810
Speaker 3: That would be such a funny regional publication.

963
00:52:05,310 --> 00:52:09,150
Speaker 2: It would. We'd have to ask Newfies to give us

964
00:52:09,190 --> 00:52:11,589
Speaker 2: a little more insight on how that joke might be

965
00:52:11,630 --> 00:52:15,460
Speaker 2: fully told. But at any rate, she had done a

966
00:52:15,500 --> 00:52:18,899
Speaker 2: couple of small things and TV projects the previous year

967
00:52:18,960 --> 00:52:21,840
Speaker 2: before of Unknown Origin, but this was her first big film.

968
00:52:22,500 --> 00:52:25,020
Speaker 2: And I think it's pretty interesting because While the film

969
00:52:25,100 --> 00:52:27,860
Speaker 2: does lean into her obvious sex appeal and, you know,

970
00:52:27,880 --> 00:52:29,700
Speaker 2: there's a bit of stunt casting to this and all,

971
00:52:30,320 --> 00:52:33,400
Speaker 2: the role itself does not demand a former Playboy centerfold

972
00:52:33,440 --> 00:52:35,600
Speaker 2: or anything like that. I mean, they lean into the

973
00:52:35,640 --> 00:52:40,140
Speaker 2: sex appeal, but this is not a role that has

974
00:52:40,160 --> 00:52:41,180
Speaker 2: to be sexy, right?

975
00:52:41,550 --> 00:52:46,730
Speaker 3: It's a fairly straightforward family character. I mean, so the

976
00:52:46,810 --> 00:52:51,330
Speaker 3: movie is mainly about Bart, and the other characters... No

977
00:52:51,390 --> 00:52:53,670
Speaker 3: other character in the movie has a lot of depth.

978
00:52:53,810 --> 00:52:56,410
Speaker 3: It's like him. And then so everybody else is their

979
00:52:56,469 --> 00:52:59,930
Speaker 3: relationship to him is their defining trait. But she is

980
00:53:00,170 --> 00:53:03,960
Speaker 3: a wife and mother character who comes off as, yeah,

981
00:53:04,080 --> 00:53:06,680
Speaker 3: is fairly straightforwardly characterized. Yeah.

982
00:53:07,540 --> 00:53:09,680
Speaker 2: So Tweed would go on to do a lot more

983
00:53:09,719 --> 00:53:13,720
Speaker 2: TV work, film roles, especially in the erotic thriller genre.

984
00:53:14,180 --> 00:53:16,830
Speaker 2: And her other films include 1989's Cannibal Women in the

985
00:53:16,890 --> 00:53:20,790
Speaker 2: Avocado Jungle of Death. And she is apparently an uncredited

986
00:53:20,870 --> 00:53:25,009
Speaker 2: body double in the 1983 horror movie Curtains, which I

987
00:53:25,230 --> 00:53:28,510
Speaker 2: haven't seen. It has a very creepy bit of poster

988
00:53:28,590 --> 00:53:32,930
Speaker 2: art for it. But according to, I think, the movie

989
00:53:32,969 --> 00:53:36,210
Speaker 2: database and Letterboxd, she's a body double in that one.

990
00:53:36,770 --> 00:53:39,870
Speaker 3: In this movie, one thing that's kind of understatedly funny

991
00:53:40,190 --> 00:53:44,270
Speaker 3: is that– it's about Bart being alone in his house

992
00:53:44,350 --> 00:53:46,930
Speaker 3: for this week when his wife and son have left

993
00:53:47,030 --> 00:53:51,210
Speaker 3: on a vacation with, uh, with his wife's family. And, uh,

994
00:53:51,330 --> 00:53:54,390
Speaker 3: so he's going through this madness, but like every time

995
00:53:54,450 --> 00:53:57,450
Speaker 3: he gets on the phone with Shannon Tweed, she's like

996
00:53:57,510 --> 00:54:00,370
Speaker 3: playing tennis or she's at the pool. She's just like

997
00:54:00,390 --> 00:54:02,669
Speaker 3: having a great living her best life. Yeah.

998
00:54:04,010 --> 00:54:05,950
Speaker 2: So, uh, you know, not a lot to this role,

999
00:54:05,969 --> 00:54:07,469
Speaker 2: but I think she's good here. I think this is

1000
00:54:07,489 --> 00:54:09,719
Speaker 2: a good performance for what's asked of her.

1001
00:54:09,980 --> 00:54:10,120
Speaker 3: Sure.

1002
00:54:11,239 --> 00:54:15,240
Speaker 2: And then the son is Peter Hughes, played by Leif Anderson,

1003
00:54:15,580 --> 00:54:18,989
Speaker 2: born 1974. Child actor who is, I believe, still active

1004
00:54:19,010 --> 00:54:22,170
Speaker 2: today as an adult. This was his first film, followed

1005
00:54:22,230 --> 00:54:26,710
Speaker 2: by the 1988 haunted anatomy doll movie, Pin, which I

1006
00:54:26,750 --> 00:54:30,750
Speaker 2: haven't seen. And then he appeared in a 1992 episode

1007
00:54:30,790 --> 00:54:32,430
Speaker 2: of Are You Afraid of the Dark? And then was

1008
00:54:32,469 --> 00:54:36,170
Speaker 2: later in 1999's Storm of the Century, an adaptation of

1009
00:54:36,210 --> 00:54:38,910
Speaker 2: a Stephen King work, or at least a Stephen King screenplay.

1010
00:54:38,930 --> 00:54:40,700
Speaker 2: I can't remember the origin story on that one.

1011
00:54:41,270 --> 00:54:44,810
Speaker 3: I think it was originally written for TV by Stephen King.

1012
00:54:45,330 --> 00:54:46,880
Speaker 2: An original TV miniseries.

1013
00:54:47,200 --> 00:54:47,390
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1014
00:54:49,239 --> 00:54:52,140
Speaker 2: All right. So that's the family unit. Breaking out a

1015
00:54:52,160 --> 00:54:55,460
Speaker 2: little bit into the neighborhood, going street level. In some cases,

1016
00:54:55,520 --> 00:54:59,319
Speaker 2: like sub-street level. We have just two main characters. These

1017
00:54:59,360 --> 00:55:01,850
Speaker 2: are kind of, these are sort of Bart's allies in

1018
00:55:01,870 --> 00:55:06,110
Speaker 2: the war against Rat. The most important being the character Cleet,

1019
00:55:06,530 --> 00:55:11,819
Speaker 2: played by Louis Delgrande, born 1943. he's the superintendent of

1020
00:55:11,860 --> 00:55:13,270
Speaker 2: a neighboring apartment building.

1021
00:55:13,350 --> 00:55:13,529
Speaker 3: Right.

1022
00:55:13,570 --> 00:55:15,840
Speaker 2: And he ends up just helping Bart out with these, uh,

1023
00:55:16,270 --> 00:55:19,550
Speaker 2: these problems and ultimately giving a lot of rat fighting advice.

1024
00:55:19,910 --> 00:55:20,190
Speaker 3: Yes.

1025
00:55:20,650 --> 00:55:24,930
Speaker 2: Yeah. So we've discussed still grand before in our episode

1026
00:55:25,510 --> 00:55:28,930
Speaker 2: on 81 scanners, uh, because he is the scanner whose

1027
00:55:29,010 --> 00:55:32,250
Speaker 2: head blows up in the film's most famous scene. Like

1028
00:55:32,290 --> 00:55:35,290
Speaker 2: if you haven't seen scanners and you should see scanners,

1029
00:55:35,330 --> 00:55:38,279
Speaker 2: cause it's great. Uh, he, he's the guy whose head

1030
00:55:38,300 --> 00:55:40,560
Speaker 2: blows up and it ends up being like a gist

1031
00:55:40,600 --> 00:55:42,460
Speaker 2: sensation for really decades.

1032
00:55:42,500 --> 00:55:46,799
Speaker 3: Right. Um, uh, but, uh, Michael Ironside is sitting next

1033
00:55:46,840 --> 00:55:50,719
Speaker 3: to him going like, Ooh, he's sitting there going and

1034
00:55:50,760 --> 00:55:51,700
Speaker 3: then his head explodes.

1035
00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:52,320
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1036
00:55:52,540 --> 00:55:52,759
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1037
00:55:52,920 --> 00:55:55,140
Speaker 2: In the, um, it's, I mean, it's such an iconic

1038
00:55:55,880 --> 00:55:58,739
Speaker 2: moment in film history and in horror cinema and in

1039
00:55:58,780 --> 00:56:02,109
Speaker 2: special effects as well that, uh, in that, uh, interview

1040
00:56:02,170 --> 00:56:04,950
Speaker 2: bit with, uh, with, with Louis Delgrin, he mentioned that

1041
00:56:04,989 --> 00:56:08,770
Speaker 2: like effects guys in particular, would come up and essentially

1042
00:56:08,810 --> 00:56:11,150
Speaker 2: take selfies with him. They were like, you're the guy

1043
00:56:11,170 --> 00:56:14,610
Speaker 2: whose head blows up. You're the guy from Scanners. It's

1044
00:56:14,830 --> 00:56:18,710
Speaker 2: almost like they're getting a selfie with the special effect

1045
00:56:20,450 --> 00:56:23,290
Speaker 2: and not just the human being that was involved.

1046
00:56:22,930 --> 00:56:26,860
Speaker 3: In the effect. That's pretty awesome. Yeah.

1047
00:56:26,910 --> 00:56:30,060
Speaker 2: So as I went into when we discussed Scanners, I

1048
00:56:30,080 --> 00:56:33,520
Speaker 2: was familiar with Louis Delgrande. because he was on a

1049
00:56:33,600 --> 00:56:38,339
Speaker 2: popular Canadian series that ran from 81 through 87 called

1050
00:56:38,440 --> 00:56:44,080
Speaker 2: Seeing Things about a very manic, clairvoyant journalist. So a

1051
00:56:44,120 --> 00:56:46,859
Speaker 2: guy that sees things and gets some idea of what's

1052
00:56:46,900 --> 00:56:51,780
Speaker 2: going to happen. And in episodic fashion, I vaguely remember

1053
00:56:51,820 --> 00:56:55,800
Speaker 2: him solving murders and whatnot. Or preventing murders. You can imagine.

1054
00:56:57,100 --> 00:57:01,009
Speaker 2: This was a series that during its run, I was

1055
00:57:01,050 --> 00:57:03,030
Speaker 2: living in Canada with my family, and we would watch

1056
00:57:03,090 --> 00:57:06,090
Speaker 2: it on CBC. We only had one TV channel, and

1057
00:57:06,130 --> 00:57:08,850
Speaker 2: we were in Newfoundland at the time. We had one

1058
00:57:08,870 --> 00:57:11,610
Speaker 2: TV channel, so we would watch whatever was on. Sometimes

1059
00:57:11,630 --> 00:57:14,610
Speaker 2: it was seeing things. And so I vaguely remember watching

1060
00:57:14,660 --> 00:57:17,600
Speaker 2: the show, and I remember his fun performance on there.

1061
00:57:17,620 --> 00:57:20,060
Speaker 2: It was much later that I found out that, oh,

1062
00:57:20,160 --> 00:57:22,700
Speaker 2: the guy whose head blows up in scanners is this

1063
00:57:22,760 --> 00:57:27,000
Speaker 2: guy from this television show that I watched with my

1064
00:57:27,040 --> 00:57:32,330
Speaker 2: family back in the 80s. But he's an American-Canadian actor

1065
00:57:32,370 --> 00:57:36,390
Speaker 2: who was active through 2016, and his other credits include

1066
00:57:36,410 --> 00:57:40,470
Speaker 2: the 1981 horror film Happy Birthday to Me, and appearances

1067
00:57:40,530 --> 00:57:45,130
Speaker 2: on such notable Canadian genre TV shows as Lex and

1068
00:57:45,370 --> 00:57:48,510
Speaker 2: the 90s Outer Limits series, but not an episode of

1069
00:57:48,550 --> 00:57:51,880
Speaker 2: that that I think I've seen. That interview with him, though,

1070
00:57:51,920 --> 00:57:54,900
Speaker 2: is worth checking out. He's a very jovial, kind of

1071
00:57:54,940 --> 00:57:59,470
Speaker 2: manic guy, has some really fun energy. The way he

1072
00:57:59,510 --> 00:58:02,430
Speaker 2: describes it, like he's an actor who is really good

1073
00:58:02,590 --> 00:58:05,710
Speaker 2: at sort of like pulling back from that high energy

1074
00:58:05,750 --> 00:58:07,840
Speaker 2: that maybe is a little more of his natural vibe

1075
00:58:08,320 --> 00:58:11,820
Speaker 2: and getting into this vibe that is, for film, seen

1076
00:58:11,880 --> 00:58:15,200
Speaker 2: as more realistic and natural, but then with an ability

1077
00:58:15,240 --> 00:58:17,680
Speaker 2: to like ramp it up and be ramped down from

1078
00:58:17,720 --> 00:58:21,100
Speaker 2: that as needed by the director. So, you know, he

1079
00:58:21,120 --> 00:58:23,960
Speaker 2: has great straight man energy in like scanners, you know,

1080
00:58:24,480 --> 00:58:27,100
Speaker 2: comes off as kind of like a nerdy intellectual scanner type.

1081
00:58:28,230 --> 00:58:32,330
Speaker 2: whose head then explodes. And in this movie, he gets

1082
00:58:32,350 --> 00:58:34,720
Speaker 2: to have a lot more fun. He's more of your

1083
00:58:34,780 --> 00:58:38,660
Speaker 2: working Joe. You know, he's the maintenance guy at the

1084
00:58:38,700 --> 00:58:41,420
Speaker 2: apartment next door. He has a lot of, you know,

1085
00:58:41,440 --> 00:58:44,460
Speaker 2: he has army stories. He has stories about fighting rats.

1086
00:58:44,780 --> 00:58:47,760
Speaker 2: He has information to share. He has street level information

1087
00:58:48,060 --> 00:58:51,580
Speaker 2: to share with our character who is, you know, who's

1088
00:58:51,640 --> 00:58:53,900
Speaker 2: ascending up from street level, who is already, you know,

1089
00:58:54,600 --> 00:58:56,820
Speaker 2: at least in his workplace, up in the stratosphere of

1090
00:58:56,840 --> 00:58:57,450
Speaker 2: the high rises.

1091
00:58:57,860 --> 00:59:00,680
Speaker 3: He's got a little bit of the the cultural archetype

1092
00:59:00,740 --> 00:59:05,810
Speaker 3: of the post Vietnam paranoid survivalist though he's not fully

1093
00:59:05,870 --> 00:59:07,750
Speaker 3: in that it's just a bit of that in him

1094
00:59:08,190 --> 00:59:11,640
Speaker 3: otherwise he just comes off as a. slightly weird kind

1095
00:59:11,680 --> 00:59:16,640
Speaker 3: of vulgar, but also kind of nervous dude. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

1096
00:59:16,680 --> 00:59:19,280
Speaker 2: Great, great energy. And without, but without ever really feeling

1097
00:59:19,320 --> 00:59:22,620
Speaker 2: like a caricature, you know? Yeah. Um, it's, it does

1098
00:59:22,720 --> 00:59:25,510
Speaker 2: feel for the most part, natural, believable, like, like, like

1099
00:59:25,530 --> 00:59:26,430
Speaker 2: all the characters in the film.

1100
00:59:26,790 --> 00:59:26,990
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1101
00:59:28,310 --> 00:59:30,460
Speaker 2: Um, But anyway, that interview is really fun. He does

1102
00:59:30,480 --> 00:59:34,000
Speaker 2: share one little story. He reflects fondly on working with Cosmatos,

1103
00:59:34,460 --> 00:59:37,640
Speaker 2: but mentioned something. He has a story about Cosmatos saying like, hey,

1104
00:59:38,220 --> 00:59:41,060
Speaker 2: you're on Canadian television. There's this Canadian critic who did

1105
00:59:41,120 --> 00:59:43,300
Speaker 2: not give the movie a good review. I need you

1106
00:59:43,320 --> 00:59:44,880
Speaker 2: to call him up and straighten him out on this.

1107
00:59:45,620 --> 00:59:47,480
Speaker 2: And he's like, you know, that's just, that's not done.

1108
00:59:47,720 --> 00:59:50,720
Speaker 2: He's like, that's, that was, that's just ridiculous because like

1109
00:59:50,930 --> 00:59:52,650
Speaker 2: he said, even if I did that, like this guy

1110
00:59:52,670 --> 00:59:55,270
Speaker 2: would never give me a good review about anything I

1111
00:59:55,330 --> 00:59:57,670
Speaker 2: did for the rest of my career. So it was

1112
00:59:58,190 --> 00:59:58,790
Speaker 2: kind of funny.

1113
00:59:59,400 --> 01:00:02,860
Speaker 3: That kind of matches other stories I've heard about Cosmato Sr.

1114
01:00:02,920 --> 01:00:07,400
Speaker 3: Just the kind of guy who would make absurd requests

1115
01:00:07,500 --> 01:00:08,480
Speaker 3: of people.

1116
01:00:09,880 --> 01:00:12,430
Speaker 2: All right. So that's our main street-level character. But there's

1117
01:00:12,450 --> 01:00:15,710
Speaker 2: also a hardware salesman that pops up. He's played by

1118
01:00:15,730 --> 01:00:19,890
Speaker 2: this guy Keith Knight, who lived 1956 through 2007. Canadian

1119
01:00:19,990 --> 01:00:23,830
Speaker 2: actor whose credits include the pivotal early slasher film, 81's

1120
01:00:23,890 --> 01:00:27,890
Speaker 2: My Bloody Valentine. And his other credits include 79's Meatballs

1121
01:00:27,930 --> 01:00:31,910
Speaker 2: and 82's Class of 1984. And this movie is kind

1122
01:00:31,930 --> 01:00:33,090
Speaker 2: of a poison slinger.

1123
01:00:33,110 --> 01:00:33,690
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1124
01:00:33,830 --> 01:00:33,990
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1125
01:00:34,010 --> 01:00:35,490
Speaker 2: Like which kind of poison you want to buy? And

1126
01:00:35,510 --> 01:00:37,890
Speaker 2: then he explains how the poisons work for the plot.

1127
01:00:39,550 --> 01:00:39,860
Speaker 3: All right.

1128
01:00:39,880 --> 01:00:42,920
Speaker 2: Uh, and then finally getting into the, uh, into the

1129
01:00:42,960 --> 01:00:45,860
Speaker 2: high rise, getting into the workplace, the office, we have

1130
01:00:45,900 --> 01:00:49,200
Speaker 2: several key characters. Um, first of all, we have the,

1131
01:00:49,560 --> 01:00:53,250
Speaker 2: the character Elliot Riverton, uh, this is played by, this

1132
01:00:53,310 --> 01:00:56,330
Speaker 2: is the big boss. This is Bart's main boss played

1133
01:00:56,370 --> 01:01:00,250
Speaker 2: by Canadian actor, Lawrence Dane, who lived 1937 through 2022.

1134
01:01:00,250 --> 01:01:05,060
Speaker 2: We've talked about him before because he played Braden Keller

1135
01:01:05,120 --> 01:01:08,340
Speaker 2: in 81 scanners. So he's the, this is the concept

1136
01:01:08,380 --> 01:01:12,020
Speaker 2: security head who ends up secretly working for Daryl Revick.

1137
01:01:13,020 --> 01:01:14,720
Speaker 3: He's like hunting down scanners.

1138
01:01:14,940 --> 01:01:17,910
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. He's a great, he plays a great suit,

1139
01:01:18,240 --> 01:01:21,170
Speaker 2: you know, uh, and, and here he's a great suit. Uh, though,

1140
01:01:22,140 --> 01:01:25,520
Speaker 2: not like a full-on villain or anything, but an imposing figure. Like,

1141
01:01:25,560 --> 01:01:31,180
Speaker 2: he represents things in Bart's life that are high-stress, at least.

1142
01:01:31,820 --> 01:01:35,090
Speaker 3: Yeah. As we said earlier, none of the secondary characters

1143
01:01:35,160 --> 01:01:37,970
Speaker 3: are really written with a lot of depth, but he,

1144
01:01:38,370 --> 01:01:40,810
Speaker 3: but a lot of the actors in, like, the workplace

1145
01:01:40,850 --> 01:01:44,870
Speaker 3: characters just kind of bring their own texture to the roles,

1146
01:01:44,970 --> 01:01:47,350
Speaker 3: and so he brings a lot, Lawrence Dayne brings a

1147
01:01:47,390 --> 01:01:51,520
Speaker 3: lot of that to this guy. There is a weird

1148
01:01:52,040 --> 01:01:58,200
Speaker 3: mixture of fatherliness, but also coldness to this guy. Yeah.

1149
01:01:58,620 --> 01:02:01,730
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, Lawrence Dane, really good as always.

1150
01:02:01,830 --> 01:02:05,270
Speaker 2: His other credits include Happy Birthday to Me, 79's, I mean,

1151
01:02:05,570 --> 01:02:10,850
Speaker 2: 77's Rituals, 89's Millennium, 95's Darkman 2, and 1998's Bride

1152
01:02:10,890 --> 01:02:14,590
Speaker 2: of Chucky. All right. Other characters at work, we have

1153
01:02:14,690 --> 01:02:19,560
Speaker 2: Laurie Wells. This is Bart's secretary, played by Jennifer Dale,

1154
01:02:19,600 --> 01:02:23,270
Speaker 2: born 1956. Her other credits include the pilot episode of

1155
01:02:23,290 --> 01:02:26,550
Speaker 2: the Robocop TV series, which is kind of a neat connection,

1156
01:02:26,630 --> 01:02:31,010
Speaker 2: as well as David Cronenberg's 2024 film, The Shrouds. And

1157
01:02:31,030 --> 01:02:34,470
Speaker 2: Schitt's Creek fans might recognize her as the character just

1158
01:02:34,550 --> 01:02:37,370
Speaker 2: in one episode, Trish, the episode Rooms by the Hour,

1159
01:02:37,830 --> 01:02:40,310
Speaker 2: in which she plays an escort agent who starts running

1160
01:02:40,350 --> 01:02:46,060
Speaker 2: her business out of the Schitt's Creek Hotel. Nice. Let's see.

1161
01:02:46,340 --> 01:02:48,480
Speaker 2: Then we have a couple of work rivals. We have

1162
01:02:48,560 --> 01:02:54,130
Speaker 2: James Hall. played by Kenneth Welsh, who lived 1942 through 2022.

1163
01:02:54,130 --> 01:02:57,450
Speaker 2: Canadian actor. We mentioned him in the past because he

1164
01:02:57,970 --> 01:02:59,790
Speaker 2: was in Time Cop, so we discussed him in our

1165
01:02:59,830 --> 01:03:03,880
Speaker 2: episode on Time Cop. He played Watson opposite Matt Frewer's

1166
01:03:04,320 --> 01:03:09,140
Speaker 2: Sherlock in the early 2000s on some projects. And then

1167
01:03:09,300 --> 01:03:14,140
Speaker 2: finally we have Mari Chaykin playing the key work antagonist,

1168
01:03:14,260 --> 01:03:19,540
Speaker 2: Dan Errol. Chaykin lived 1949 through 2010. He was a

1169
01:03:19,620 --> 01:03:23,780
Speaker 2: Canadian-American actor whose credits include 83's War Games, 1990's Dances

1170
01:03:23,820 --> 01:03:27,980
Speaker 2: with Wolves, 92's My Cousin Vinny. He was also in Curtains,

1171
01:03:28,160 --> 01:03:30,910
Speaker 2: also in Millennium, like a lot of Canadian actors at

1172
01:03:30,950 --> 01:03:34,750
Speaker 2: the time. 85's DEFCON 4. And of special note to

1173
01:03:34,910 --> 01:03:39,750
Speaker 2: MST3K fans, he played the villain or sub-villain Gondal in

1174
01:03:40,050 --> 01:03:41,890
Speaker 2: 1984's Overdrawn at the Memory Bank.

1175
01:03:42,150 --> 01:03:46,830
Speaker 3: Hmm, okay. He's not the main guy chasing Fingal around.

1176
01:03:46,890 --> 01:03:50,010
Speaker 2: He's a different guy. He's not the big guy who's

1177
01:03:50,250 --> 01:03:55,939
Speaker 2: always saying, like, Fingal! He's Fingal's second-in-command. So I often

1178
01:03:55,980 --> 01:03:59,680
Speaker 2: think of them in terms of Harkonnens, and he's like

1179
01:03:59,700 --> 01:04:01,320
Speaker 2: the beast in this film.

1180
01:04:01,660 --> 01:04:03,180
Speaker 3: Yeah, Rabban or whatever.

1181
01:04:03,260 --> 01:04:06,780
Speaker 2: Yeah, the beast Rabban. Anyway, great, great actor. He doesn't

1182
01:04:06,880 --> 01:04:08,960
Speaker 2: have a lot to do here, but you can tell

1183
01:04:08,980 --> 01:04:12,720
Speaker 2: that he really seems to inject his own... his own

1184
01:04:12,780 --> 01:04:15,570
Speaker 2: vibe into this character and makes it, uh, gives it

1185
01:04:15,610 --> 01:04:16,950
Speaker 2: a little more interest on the screen.

1186
01:04:17,280 --> 01:04:19,950
Speaker 3: He's memorable, even though he's only got like three lines.

1187
01:04:20,030 --> 01:04:22,230
Speaker 3: Cause he just hangs around kind of sliming up the

1188
01:04:22,270 --> 01:04:26,090
Speaker 3: screen with his presence. And there's a one really funny

1189
01:04:26,130 --> 01:04:29,870
Speaker 3: scene where he scolds a robot. Yeah. There's a robot

1190
01:04:29,910 --> 01:04:32,970
Speaker 3: in this movie. It's not a sci-fi movie, but there's

1191
01:04:33,010 --> 01:04:36,190
Speaker 3: just one random blink and you'll miss it. Robot that

1192
01:04:36,250 --> 01:04:38,090
Speaker 3: comes out of this guy's office. And he's like, go

1193
01:04:38,110 --> 01:04:38,930
Speaker 3: back where you came from.

1194
01:04:39,430 --> 01:04:41,690
Speaker 2: Yeah, I didn't have time to get into why this happened,

1195
01:04:41,710 --> 01:04:43,770
Speaker 2: but I assume this is something that just came together

1196
01:04:43,790 --> 01:04:46,110
Speaker 2: when they were filming it, and Cosmatos was like, I

1197
01:04:46,150 --> 01:04:46,810
Speaker 2: love it, let's do it.

1198
01:04:46,950 --> 01:04:48,350
Speaker 3: Let's put the robot in the movie.

1199
01:04:48,790 --> 01:04:52,510
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mentioned the effects already, but I'll just say

1200
01:04:52,550 --> 01:04:56,080
Speaker 2: that a lot of connections to various other Canadian productions

1201
01:04:56,140 --> 01:04:59,700
Speaker 2: and Cronenberg productions. The rat effects in the film are

1202
01:04:59,760 --> 01:05:04,820
Speaker 2: exceptional and gross, encompassing everything from, I believe, live rats

1203
01:05:04,900 --> 01:05:09,450
Speaker 2: and a live opossum to uses of puppetry. And the

1204
01:05:09,490 --> 01:05:13,600
Speaker 2: close-ups on the rat feet, these especially really got to me.

1205
01:05:13,640 --> 01:05:17,540
Speaker 2: This made the rat just seem like an alien being,

1206
01:05:17,600 --> 01:05:17,980
Speaker 2: for sure.

1207
01:05:18,380 --> 01:05:20,920
Speaker 3: They're greasy. They smear on the glass.

1208
01:05:21,180 --> 01:05:25,100
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they're almost kind of translucent. Yeah, weird stuff.

1209
01:05:26,090 --> 01:05:28,310
Speaker 2: And the score here, the music in the film, is

1210
01:05:28,350 --> 01:05:33,010
Speaker 2: by Kenneth Wanberg, who lived 1930 through 2022, American composer,

1211
01:05:33,130 --> 01:05:36,530
Speaker 2: whose other scores include 84's The Philadelphia Experiment, But I

1212
01:05:36,550 --> 01:05:39,729
Speaker 2: thought the score of Unknown Origin is just exceptionally good.

1213
01:05:39,810 --> 01:05:46,930
Speaker 2: Just really solid throughout. Great emotional resonance. A great building

1214
01:05:47,110 --> 01:05:49,550
Speaker 2: up of the tension. So very good stuff.

1215
01:05:50,090 --> 01:05:55,640
Speaker 3: The Vinegar Syndrome disc is funny because the menu for

1216
01:05:55,700 --> 01:05:59,660
Speaker 3: this movie has just happy springtime, morning has broken kind

1217
01:05:59,900 --> 01:06:03,040
Speaker 3: of music playing. And then when you start the movie

1218
01:06:03,080 --> 01:06:15,650
Speaker 3: and then it gets dark. Oh, wow. OK, you want

1219
01:06:15,670 --> 01:06:16,380
Speaker 3: to talk about the plot?

1220
01:06:17,840 --> 01:06:18,300
Speaker 2: Let's do it.

1221
01:06:18,720 --> 01:06:20,920
Speaker 3: So the movie opens on a shot of the main

1222
01:06:21,140 --> 01:06:23,280
Speaker 3: house in the film, and I think we should talk

1223
01:06:23,340 --> 01:06:25,700
Speaker 3: about the house for a minute because the setting is

1224
01:06:25,800 --> 01:06:28,180
Speaker 3: very important. It's one of those movies where the setting

1225
01:06:28,300 --> 01:06:31,440
Speaker 3: is sort of the main character on the outside. It

1226
01:06:31,520 --> 01:06:35,740
Speaker 3: is a gorgeous antique brownstone with a turret corner and

1227
01:06:35,780 --> 01:06:39,390
Speaker 3: this carved stone pediment over the door. It's a beautiful

1228
01:06:39,470 --> 01:06:43,310
Speaker 3: old house bordered by a graystone building on the right

1229
01:06:43,690 --> 01:06:46,990
Speaker 3: and then this wide empty alleyway to the left. In

1230
01:06:47,030 --> 01:06:50,070
Speaker 3: the movie, they say that this is in the Lower

1231
01:06:50,130 --> 01:06:53,750
Speaker 3: East Side of Manhattan, but the actual location is on

1232
01:06:53,890 --> 01:06:58,320
Speaker 3: Rue Drummond in Montreal. I believe the building is still there,

1233
01:06:58,430 --> 01:07:01,220
Speaker 3: mostly unaltered, or at least it was at the time

1234
01:07:01,260 --> 01:07:03,760
Speaker 3: the documentary feature that I watched was made. So it

1235
01:07:03,800 --> 01:07:06,540
Speaker 3: looks mostly the same now. Yeah, yeah.

1236
01:07:06,560 --> 01:07:08,880
Speaker 2: You can look this up. Listeners, as always, respect the

1237
01:07:08,900 --> 01:07:11,640
Speaker 2: people who live and or work in historic film locations,

1238
01:07:12,180 --> 01:07:13,860
Speaker 2: but we would love to hear from anyone who has

1239
01:07:13,900 --> 01:07:15,800
Speaker 2: actually sought out this building and can give us a

1240
01:07:15,840 --> 01:07:16,360
Speaker 2: field report.

1241
01:07:16,680 --> 01:07:22,390
Speaker 3: Yeah. So the elegant old world exterior of this brownstone

1242
01:07:22,670 --> 01:07:26,650
Speaker 3: is a hilarious contrast to the inside, which looks like

1243
01:07:26,690 --> 01:07:29,550
Speaker 3: the house Drake lives in in Warriors of the Year 2072.

1244
01:07:29,550 --> 01:07:30,780
Speaker 3: It's trendy 80s decor to the max.

1245
01:07:30,800 --> 01:07:31,350
Speaker 2: You've got.

1246
01:07:35,590 --> 01:07:40,510
Speaker 3: Interior partitions made of glass bricks. You've got potted palm

1247
01:07:40,590 --> 01:07:46,000
Speaker 3: trees and spike plants everywhere. A mirror tiled wall behind

1248
01:07:46,040 --> 01:07:49,310
Speaker 3: the bed in the master bedroom and then white walls

1249
01:07:49,350 --> 01:07:52,880
Speaker 3: with pink blinds. In the kitchen, you've got white laminate

1250
01:07:52,960 --> 01:07:57,120
Speaker 3: countertops with black appliances, like shiny black. There's this big

1251
01:07:57,200 --> 01:08:02,560
Speaker 3: black dishwasher that looks like Knight Rider's car. In the bedroom,

1252
01:08:02,600 --> 01:08:05,840
Speaker 3: there's this huge boxy tube TV with rabbit ears on

1253
01:08:05,860 --> 01:08:09,160
Speaker 3: a round wicker table in the corner. I'm not an

1254
01:08:09,240 --> 01:08:12,960
Speaker 3: interior design expert, but this just looks like a parody

1255
01:08:13,000 --> 01:08:14,560
Speaker 3: of 80s decor decisions.

1256
01:08:15,200 --> 01:08:17,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I really liked it. I mean, it

1257
01:08:17,800 --> 01:08:20,280
Speaker 2: does look like the consumerist American dream at the time,

1258
01:08:20,300 --> 01:08:22,610
Speaker 2: and I think it's supposed to. And, you know, perfect

1259
01:08:22,630 --> 01:08:24,850
Speaker 2: for a family that is presented as pretty much the

1260
01:08:24,870 --> 01:08:29,090
Speaker 2: American dream, again, at the time. But yeah, everything is

1261
01:08:29,130 --> 01:08:33,870
Speaker 2: just super organized and tidy. He is completely in control

1262
01:08:33,900 --> 01:08:35,139
Speaker 2: of his environment. Yeah.

1263
01:08:35,680 --> 01:08:37,560
Speaker 3: So in the opening scene, we see the three members

1264
01:08:37,600 --> 01:08:40,559
Speaker 3: of the family getting ready in the morning. Bart and

1265
01:08:40,620 --> 01:08:43,460
Speaker 3: Meg are getting dressed for the day, discussing their plans.

1266
01:08:44,189 --> 01:08:47,100
Speaker 3: And the situation at the outset of the movie is

1267
01:08:47,220 --> 01:08:50,960
Speaker 3: that Meg's father, who is super rich, kind of a

1268
01:08:51,020 --> 01:08:55,189
Speaker 3: creature of old money, has invited the family to come

1269
01:08:55,250 --> 01:08:58,190
Speaker 3: to his resort home in Vermont for a week of

1270
01:08:58,270 --> 01:09:02,280
Speaker 3: skiing and indoor tennis. and things like that. Meg wants

1271
01:09:02,320 --> 01:09:05,200
Speaker 3: to go. Bart says he can't go. It's the worst

1272
01:09:05,280 --> 01:09:08,140
Speaker 3: possible time. A big opportunity is coming up for him

1273
01:09:08,200 --> 01:09:12,960
Speaker 3: at work. Bart is some kind of banking and finance executive.

1274
01:09:13,620 --> 01:09:15,689
Speaker 3: And he believes that the big boss is about to

1275
01:09:15,729 --> 01:09:18,470
Speaker 3: give him an assignment, which, if he handles well, will

1276
01:09:18,570 --> 01:09:20,910
Speaker 3: earn him a big raise and a seat on the board.

1277
01:09:21,810 --> 01:09:26,490
Speaker 3: And there is some tension in this situation. Bart accuses

1278
01:09:26,570 --> 01:09:30,209
Speaker 3: Meg of just hopping to any time her father suggests anything.

1279
01:09:30,890 --> 01:09:35,930
Speaker 3: There's obviously money-related tension in this family. My read is

1280
01:09:36,030 --> 01:09:40,379
Speaker 3: that Meg's family is old money and Bart is new money.

1281
01:09:40,979 --> 01:09:43,260
Speaker 3: Like he doesn't necessarily come from a rich family, but

1282
01:09:43,300 --> 01:09:46,280
Speaker 3: he earned his way up in this corporate job. And

1283
01:09:46,320 --> 01:09:48,370
Speaker 3: so Bart kind of has a chip on his shoulder

1284
01:09:48,390 --> 01:09:51,450
Speaker 3: about the fact that he has had to, to earn,

1285
01:09:51,570 --> 01:09:54,490
Speaker 3: to work his way up. Uh, and he has paid

1286
01:09:54,530 --> 01:09:57,950
Speaker 3: for the family's house and fancy lifestyle. All the while

1287
01:09:58,050 --> 01:10:00,099
Speaker 3: Meg has always been like, well, we could just ask

1288
01:10:00,140 --> 01:10:01,980
Speaker 3: my dad for the money. He'd give it to us.

1289
01:10:02,100 --> 01:10:06,920
Speaker 3: And Bart has never allowed this. So definitely rich people

1290
01:10:06,960 --> 01:10:09,910
Speaker 3: problems as presented, uh, But I think if you scale

1291
01:10:09,950 --> 01:10:12,670
Speaker 3: down the amount of money in question, it's kind of

1292
01:10:12,790 --> 01:10:15,809
Speaker 3: it's a relatable problem. There can be like tension in

1293
01:10:15,850 --> 01:10:19,639
Speaker 3: a family at the intersection of money, pride and feelings

1294
01:10:19,700 --> 01:10:20,800
Speaker 3: about deservingness.

1295
01:10:21,340 --> 01:10:21,740
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1296
01:10:21,820 --> 01:10:22,259
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1297
01:10:22,400 --> 01:10:24,700
Speaker 2: And in those examples, it may be a lot more

1298
01:10:24,760 --> 01:10:27,920
Speaker 2: complex and more ins and outs. And this version that

1299
01:10:27,939 --> 01:10:29,439
Speaker 2: we have in the movie is also just maybe a

1300
01:10:29,460 --> 01:10:30,460
Speaker 2: little easier to relate.

1301
01:10:30,920 --> 01:10:31,920
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1302
01:10:32,040 --> 01:10:32,110
Speaker 1: And.

1303
01:10:32,500 --> 01:10:35,599
Speaker 3: The pride, by the way, is not just financial. It's

1304
01:10:35,640 --> 01:10:39,660
Speaker 3: going to come up also with reference to renovations that

1305
01:10:39,770 --> 01:10:42,710
Speaker 3: Bart did on their home with his own hands. He says,

1306
01:10:42,750 --> 01:10:45,010
Speaker 3: I did this with my own hands. So he is

1307
01:10:45,070 --> 01:10:48,610
Speaker 3: not just the kind of business executive who hires a contractor.

1308
01:10:49,030 --> 01:10:51,970
Speaker 3: He mentioned several things around the house that he did himself.

1309
01:10:52,990 --> 01:10:56,229
Speaker 3: And this later seems wrapped up in how obsessed he

1310
01:10:56,250 --> 01:10:59,370
Speaker 3: becomes with defending his home from the intruder. Like, I

1311
01:10:59,410 --> 01:11:01,049
Speaker 3: did these hardwood floors myself.

1312
01:11:01,640 --> 01:11:02,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think a lot of this comes back

1313
01:11:02,800 --> 01:11:05,460
Speaker 2: again to that idea of control and the illusion of

1314
01:11:05,520 --> 01:11:08,230
Speaker 2: control and the more things like this. Like if you're

1315
01:11:08,630 --> 01:11:11,870
Speaker 2: doing your own tile work, is it really better than

1316
01:11:12,470 --> 01:11:15,910
Speaker 2: it would be if it was professionally installed? Maybe, maybe not.

1317
01:11:15,950 --> 01:11:17,050
Speaker 2: I don't know. He seems to have done a great

1318
01:11:17,090 --> 01:11:21,150
Speaker 2: job here. But by directly doing it, like he's getting

1319
01:11:21,189 --> 01:11:22,720
Speaker 2: to have one more thing in his life that he

1320
01:11:22,729 --> 01:11:25,740
Speaker 2: has direct, complete, foreseeable control over.

1321
01:11:26,060 --> 01:11:28,220
Speaker 3: Yeah. So the way this is going to work out

1322
01:11:28,320 --> 01:11:31,480
Speaker 3: is Meg will take their son Peter to Vermont for

1323
01:11:31,520 --> 01:11:33,510
Speaker 3: the week and they're going to leave Bart alone in

1324
01:11:33,550 --> 01:11:35,610
Speaker 3: the house so he can focus on this big project

1325
01:11:35,650 --> 01:11:38,689
Speaker 3: at work. And the scene isn't all tension. It's mostly

1326
01:11:39,210 --> 01:11:42,560
Speaker 3: not nice. Like there's flirtiness between them and humor, a

1327
01:11:42,960 --> 01:11:46,240
Speaker 3: lot of giggling and smooching. So they're shown to have

1328
01:11:46,340 --> 01:11:51,960
Speaker 3: a very nice, idyllic family life. Meanwhile, in the kitchen, Peter,

1329
01:11:52,100 --> 01:11:55,519
Speaker 3: their young son, is having cereal. He's not really eating it.

1330
01:11:55,640 --> 01:11:58,160
Speaker 3: What he's doing is pouring out the entire box of

1331
01:11:58,300 --> 01:12:03,100
Speaker 3: Fruity Pebbles and stuff into multiple different bowls and spilling

1332
01:12:03,140 --> 01:12:05,740
Speaker 3: it all over the counter and the floor, trying to

1333
01:12:05,780 --> 01:12:09,340
Speaker 3: find the toy that was promised on the box. And

1334
01:12:09,360 --> 01:12:11,080
Speaker 3: I think this is supposed to be a capsule of

1335
01:12:11,120 --> 01:12:13,460
Speaker 3: the rest of the story. He's making a huge mess

1336
01:12:13,520 --> 01:12:15,440
Speaker 3: and being wasteful to get the prize.

1337
01:12:16,020 --> 01:12:18,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was very much my read as well. While

1338
01:12:18,260 --> 01:12:21,590
Speaker 2: also just being very true to life about how kids

1339
01:12:21,610 --> 01:12:24,570
Speaker 2: would interact with cereal boxes that had prizes inside.

1340
01:12:24,830 --> 01:12:27,510
Speaker 3: Yeah. So when Bart comes into the kitchen, he's a

1341
01:12:27,510 --> 01:12:30,270
Speaker 3: little annoyed at the mess, but obviously he's a softie

1342
01:12:30,340 --> 01:12:32,059
Speaker 3: when it comes to his kid and he ends up

1343
01:12:32,100 --> 01:12:34,700
Speaker 3: digging the toy spaceship out of the box for him.

1344
01:12:34,720 --> 01:12:39,200
Speaker 3: A lot of little moments of Bart fussing over the

1345
01:12:39,220 --> 01:12:41,580
Speaker 3: condition of the house, like he stops to straighten a

1346
01:12:41,600 --> 01:12:45,460
Speaker 3: picture frame and he scolds Peter for disturbing the rug

1347
01:12:45,520 --> 01:12:46,600
Speaker 3: in the foyer.

1348
01:12:46,200 --> 01:12:49,720
Speaker 2: And Yeah, and the screenwriter points out that he kind

1349
01:12:49,740 --> 01:12:51,080
Speaker 2: of based some of this, I think, on his own,

1350
01:12:51,720 --> 01:12:54,300
Speaker 2: like his stepfather, I think. And so I think Bart

1351
01:12:54,320 --> 01:12:56,520
Speaker 2: is supposed to be presented maybe as a bit too

1352
01:12:56,540 --> 01:12:59,100
Speaker 2: much of a stickler in this. But also, I mean,

1353
01:12:59,300 --> 01:13:02,280
Speaker 2: as a parent, I definitely think, yes, straighten that rug.

1354
01:13:02,320 --> 01:13:04,520
Speaker 2: You just messed up that rug. The struggle here is real.

1355
01:13:05,479 --> 01:13:08,540
Speaker 2: Straighten the rug, close the shower curtain. You know what

1356
01:13:08,580 --> 01:13:10,280
Speaker 2: to do. Why does it keep not getting done?

1357
01:13:10,780 --> 01:13:13,000
Speaker 3: Because it's easier not to.

1358
01:13:13,160 --> 01:13:15,480
Speaker 2: It's just easier not to. Kids are going to be kids, yeah.

1359
01:13:16,900 --> 01:13:19,350
Speaker 3: So Meg and Peter pack up and get into the

1360
01:13:19,390 --> 01:13:23,809
Speaker 3: car and head to Vermont. So multiple times I noticed

1361
01:13:23,850 --> 01:13:26,790
Speaker 3: we see Peter sitting in the driver's seat of a car,

1362
01:13:26,890 --> 01:13:29,150
Speaker 3: like leaning on the horn and pretending to drive. I

1363
01:13:29,150 --> 01:13:30,769
Speaker 3: didn't know if that was supposed to mean something. But

1364
01:13:30,850 --> 01:13:32,990
Speaker 3: every time we see Peter and a car in the

1365
01:13:33,030 --> 01:13:35,090
Speaker 3: same shot, he's pretending to drive the car.

1366
01:13:35,350 --> 01:13:36,990
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know. I just I interpret it as

1367
01:13:37,030 --> 01:13:39,950
Speaker 2: just kid behavior. But you could maybe apply the whole

1368
01:13:39,990 --> 01:13:41,270
Speaker 2: control narrative to that as well.

1369
01:13:41,490 --> 01:13:41,610
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1370
01:13:42,540 --> 01:13:45,840
Speaker 3: Uh, Meg is all decked out in like luxurious furs

1371
01:13:45,900 --> 01:13:48,860
Speaker 3: and she gives, she gives Bart for a drive, a

1372
01:13:48,860 --> 01:13:54,310
Speaker 3: multi cross state drive. You're putting the furs on. Um, anyway, she,

1373
01:13:54,570 --> 01:13:57,370
Speaker 3: she warns him before she leaves. She gives him some

1374
01:13:57,410 --> 01:14:00,970
Speaker 3: smooches and then she warns him. Don't sit around the house,

1375
01:14:01,030 --> 01:14:02,790
Speaker 3: driving yourself crazy while we're gone.

1376
01:14:03,150 --> 01:14:04,310
Speaker 2: No chance of that happening.

1377
01:14:05,310 --> 01:14:07,229
Speaker 3: So Bart goes back in the house. He makes himself

1378
01:14:07,270 --> 01:14:10,380
Speaker 3: some breakfast. And while he is spreading butter on his toast,

1379
01:14:10,439 --> 01:14:15,160
Speaker 3: we see an almost in this like mirror like back

1380
01:14:15,200 --> 01:14:19,860
Speaker 3: of the stovetop, the reflection of a rat shaped shadow

1381
01:14:19,939 --> 01:14:23,340
Speaker 3: scampering across the kitchen. Bart does not see it. And

1382
01:14:23,380 --> 01:14:26,000
Speaker 3: then as he leaves for work with his briefcase, we

1383
01:14:26,020 --> 01:14:28,950
Speaker 3: watch a point of view shot out of the window.

1384
01:14:29,189 --> 01:14:31,389
Speaker 3: Somebody is watching him, someone or something.

1385
01:14:32,470 --> 01:14:35,450
Speaker 2: Yeah, I like how we're introduced to the rat at

1386
01:14:35,510 --> 01:14:37,390
Speaker 2: first because this is very true to life. Like when

1387
01:14:37,430 --> 01:14:41,030
Speaker 2: you do glimpse rats, unless it's a very bold rat,

1388
01:14:41,150 --> 01:14:42,450
Speaker 2: it is going to be one of these kind of

1389
01:14:42,490 --> 01:14:46,040
Speaker 2: like baseboard running sort of scenarios. A rat or a

1390
01:14:46,460 --> 01:14:48,820
Speaker 2: mouse of some sort, you know? So it makes sense

1391
01:14:48,860 --> 01:14:51,000
Speaker 2: that he wouldn't see it and we would barely see it. But,

1392
01:14:51,820 --> 01:14:55,040
Speaker 2: you know, we've lived alongside rodents long enough. We were

1393
01:14:55,100 --> 01:14:57,650
Speaker 2: wired to notice that. Now, I don't know about this

1394
01:14:57,729 --> 01:15:00,689
Speaker 2: shot of presumably the rat looking out through the windows

1395
01:15:00,710 --> 01:15:04,040
Speaker 2: because this feels like man height. So I don't really

1396
01:15:04,060 --> 01:15:05,139
Speaker 2: know how to interpret this.

1397
01:15:06,180 --> 01:15:09,000
Speaker 3: So once Bart gets to the office, we follow him

1398
01:15:09,220 --> 01:15:13,920
Speaker 3: through some hard-nosed business babble and executive politics. He's been

1399
01:15:14,120 --> 01:15:17,650
Speaker 3: angling to get put in charge of this big upcoming merger.

1400
01:15:17,770 --> 01:15:21,530
Speaker 3: But the boss, the guy named Elliot Riverton, is instead

1401
01:15:21,610 --> 01:15:26,009
Speaker 3: handing that account to Bart's rival, James Hall. And he's

1402
01:15:26,020 --> 01:15:28,610
Speaker 3: giving Bart a different assignment that has to do with

1403
01:15:28,689 --> 01:15:32,530
Speaker 3: reorganizing bank branches in California. Ultimately, this isn't going to

1404
01:15:32,570 --> 01:15:35,890
Speaker 3: matter a lot. But he's getting a different assignment than

1405
01:15:35,930 --> 01:15:38,370
Speaker 3: he wanted. And he's not happy about this because he says,

1406
01:15:38,470 --> 01:15:40,650
Speaker 3: mergers are my strong suit. You know, I don't know

1407
01:15:40,689 --> 01:15:45,370
Speaker 3: anything about this other stuff. And Bart laments the office politics.

1408
01:15:45,430 --> 01:15:49,269
Speaker 3: He says to his assistant, Lori, this isn't a trust company.

1409
01:15:49,310 --> 01:15:53,210
Speaker 3: It's the court of Louis XIV. And Laurie is going

1410
01:15:53,229 --> 01:15:56,500
Speaker 3: to become a fairly significant character. She's not just hanging

1411
01:15:56,540 --> 01:15:59,820
Speaker 3: out bringing Bart coffee. She's basically running things around here.

1412
01:16:00,400 --> 01:16:04,830
Speaker 3: And she's strategizing with Bart about his maneuvers in trying

1413
01:16:04,870 --> 01:16:09,890
Speaker 3: to climb the corporate ladder. Bart at one point makes

1414
01:16:09,930 --> 01:16:12,889
Speaker 3: a not work appropriate comment about how her blouse looks

1415
01:16:12,950 --> 01:16:16,240
Speaker 3: very pretty. Uh, which is funny because I was flagging

1416
01:16:16,280 --> 01:16:18,720
Speaker 3: the blouses looking kind of weird for an office. Maybe

1417
01:16:18,740 --> 01:16:20,690
Speaker 3: the style was different in the eighties, but it's this

1418
01:16:20,729 --> 01:16:25,559
Speaker 3: like super frilly sheer white thing with puffy sleeves. Uh,

1419
01:16:25,570 --> 01:16:28,850
Speaker 3: it looks like, like bed curtains from a Victorian mansion.

1420
01:16:28,870 --> 01:16:31,830
Speaker 2: Yeah, it does look a bit much, but yeah, to your,

1421
01:16:31,910 --> 01:16:33,939
Speaker 2: to your point, maybe it was acceptable in the eighties.

1422
01:16:34,260 --> 01:16:34,460
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1423
01:16:34,900 --> 01:16:38,440
Speaker 3: Uh, anyway, uh, From that comment, I was immediately like,

1424
01:16:38,540 --> 01:16:40,900
Speaker 3: oh no, is this boss going to end up pursuing

1425
01:16:40,920 --> 01:16:43,640
Speaker 3: an inappropriate relationship with Laurie while his wife is out

1426
01:16:43,660 --> 01:16:46,320
Speaker 3: of town? I guess we'll find out. The signs are

1427
01:16:46,360 --> 01:16:49,120
Speaker 3: kind of pointing yes. Though it doesn't end up going

1428
01:16:49,160 --> 01:16:52,930
Speaker 3: the way you might expect, basically, because later she comes

1429
01:16:53,070 --> 01:16:55,550
Speaker 3: over and there is like a kiss, but he's too

1430
01:16:55,610 --> 01:16:57,689
Speaker 3: haunted by rats to take it any further.

1431
01:16:58,050 --> 01:17:01,730
Speaker 2: Yeah, he is not taking on additional romances at that

1432
01:17:01,770 --> 01:17:02,470
Speaker 2: point in the movie.

1433
01:17:04,040 --> 01:17:08,380
Speaker 3: Um, so anyway, once Bart and the boss Riverton finally

1434
01:17:08,420 --> 01:17:12,860
Speaker 3: see each other, Riverton explains that he really needs Bart

1435
01:17:13,000 --> 01:17:16,160
Speaker 3: on this other bank branch assignment. Uh, you know, it's

1436
01:17:16,220 --> 01:17:19,580
Speaker 3: because you are my number one guy. Uh, he says,

1437
01:17:19,640 --> 01:17:22,519
Speaker 3: I need a hands-on guy, Bart. Uh, but it's a

1438
01:17:22,560 --> 01:17:25,410
Speaker 3: fast timetable. He needs it all worked out in two weeks.

1439
01:17:25,450 --> 01:17:27,350
Speaker 3: So Bart is going to have to go into overdrive.

1440
01:17:27,960 --> 01:17:30,280
Speaker 3: He also mentions that he's going to need Bart to

1441
01:17:30,360 --> 01:17:33,620
Speaker 3: come to an important dinner party later this week with

1442
01:17:33,700 --> 01:17:38,180
Speaker 3: the Los Angeles branch manager. So don't rehearse any nauseating

1443
01:17:38,260 --> 01:17:41,820
Speaker 3: stories about rats and disease for this party. Yeah.

1444
01:17:41,880 --> 01:17:43,540
Speaker 2: I love how everything is set up at this point.

1445
01:17:43,580 --> 01:17:45,930
Speaker 2: Cause you get, you got to look at Bart as like,

1446
01:17:45,939 --> 01:17:48,630
Speaker 2: he's not, he's a guy on the rise within his industry,

1447
01:17:48,650 --> 01:17:50,630
Speaker 2: but he's also, you can think of him, you know,

1448
01:17:50,650 --> 01:17:54,590
Speaker 2: in kind of getting into the midlife anxiety aspect of

1449
01:17:54,650 --> 01:17:57,679
Speaker 2: it all. Like he is, A guy that may be

1450
01:17:57,740 --> 01:18:01,920
Speaker 2: in his prime earning years, perhaps. He's got where he

1451
01:18:01,979 --> 01:18:04,979
Speaker 2: is at by saying yes to pretty much everything that's

1452
01:18:05,000 --> 01:18:09,680
Speaker 2: presented to him work-wise. And at this point, he's probably

1453
01:18:09,920 --> 01:18:13,960
Speaker 2: severely overextended. So I think that's all important to note.

1454
01:18:13,979 --> 01:18:15,229
Speaker 2: And I think the film does a good job of

1455
01:18:15,270 --> 01:18:16,270
Speaker 2: presenting it. Yeah.

1456
01:18:17,040 --> 01:18:19,300
Speaker 3: So later that night, back at the house, Bart is

1457
01:18:19,360 --> 01:18:22,240
Speaker 3: working at his desk. He hears a sound in the house.

1458
01:18:22,820 --> 01:18:25,330
Speaker 3: He picks up a statuette and holds it like a club.

1459
01:18:25,430 --> 01:18:28,410
Speaker 3: Is it a miniature bronze Statue of Liberty? I think maybe.

1460
01:18:29,270 --> 01:18:30,710
Speaker 2: I guess I think it was already on the lookout

1461
01:18:30,750 --> 01:18:32,210
Speaker 2: for rats here, so I didn't notice.

1462
01:18:32,570 --> 01:18:35,259
Speaker 3: He starts creeping around looking for the source of the noise.

1463
01:18:35,820 --> 01:18:39,660
Speaker 3: And here we are treated to another huge rat shadow

1464
01:18:39,780 --> 01:18:42,759
Speaker 3: looming over Peter Weller in a way that he can't see.

1465
01:18:42,760 --> 01:18:45,510
Speaker 3: It's like behind him. But it's such a big shadow.

1466
01:18:45,510 --> 01:18:48,020
Speaker 3: It's like the rat must be right next to the

1467
01:18:48,020 --> 01:18:48,710
Speaker 3: light bulb.

1468
01:18:48,710 --> 01:18:51,040
Speaker 2: I don't know. you know it's not only visually that

1469
01:18:51,080 --> 01:18:54,460
Speaker 2: the rat is going to be so like greatly exaggerated

1470
01:18:54,939 --> 01:18:58,320
Speaker 2: eventually this rat is going to start making noises and

1471
01:18:58,780 --> 01:19:01,849
Speaker 2: these are the most hellacious sounds a movie rat has

1472
01:19:01,890 --> 01:19:05,690
Speaker 2: surely ever made a giant rat or not uh it

1473
01:19:05,750 --> 01:19:08,610
Speaker 2: is It feels more like it's definitely leaning into the

1474
01:19:08,670 --> 01:19:10,510
Speaker 2: monstrous and maybe even the psychological.

1475
01:19:10,810 --> 01:19:13,790
Speaker 3: I multiple times had to turn down the volume on

1476
01:19:13,830 --> 01:19:15,990
Speaker 3: this movie while I was making notes on it. Cause

1477
01:19:16,050 --> 01:19:18,530
Speaker 3: just like the squealing screeching, I was afraid it was

1478
01:19:18,570 --> 01:19:21,190
Speaker 3: going to like wake up my daughter and give her nightmares. Yeah.

1479
01:19:21,250 --> 01:19:21,410
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1480
01:19:21,430 --> 01:19:22,810
Speaker 2: It is. It is horrific.

1481
01:19:23,070 --> 01:19:29,290
Speaker 3: Yeah. So anyway, Peter Weller goes into the kitchen. He's

1482
01:19:29,550 --> 01:19:32,110
Speaker 3: stalking around with this club and eventually he gets there

1483
01:19:32,330 --> 01:19:35,730
Speaker 3: and the kitchen is flooded. There's water all over the floor.

1484
01:19:36,189 --> 01:19:39,710
Speaker 3: Water is gushing out of the Knight Rider dishwasher. So like,

1485
01:19:39,810 --> 01:19:41,070
Speaker 3: oh boy, this is all I need.

1486
01:19:41,450 --> 01:19:44,800
Speaker 2: Again, this is not escapist horror. This is very confrontational.

1487
01:19:44,840 --> 01:19:48,220
Speaker 2: Like if you've ever had dishwasher woes, this cuts deep.

1488
01:19:48,979 --> 01:19:51,900
Speaker 3: In general, water gushing out onto your floor and just

1489
01:19:51,939 --> 01:19:55,840
Speaker 3: continuing to flow is a very bad feeling in there.

1490
01:19:57,090 --> 01:20:00,130
Speaker 3: So anyway, that night while Weller is asleep, we get

1491
01:20:00,189 --> 01:20:03,309
Speaker 3: our first taste of rat cam. So we'll get this

1492
01:20:03,430 --> 01:20:07,559
Speaker 3: many times in the film. Flashes of extreme rat close-ups,

1493
01:20:07,600 --> 01:20:10,960
Speaker 3: like a beady eye and a rat claw leaving this

1494
01:20:11,040 --> 01:20:15,189
Speaker 3: greasy streak on a piece of glass. Rat point of

1495
01:20:15,229 --> 01:20:18,150
Speaker 3: view shots is the creature ambles through a sewer pipe

1496
01:20:18,250 --> 01:20:21,710
Speaker 3: or down a tunnel that it has chewed behind the drywall.

1497
01:20:22,310 --> 01:20:25,840
Speaker 3: And we also get action shots of rat damage, like

1498
01:20:25,920 --> 01:20:29,800
Speaker 3: knocking over picture frames, breaking stuff, getting it filthy, stuff

1499
01:20:29,840 --> 01:20:30,060
Speaker 3: like that.

1500
01:20:30,200 --> 01:20:31,500
Speaker 2: Smearing things.

1501
01:20:31,580 --> 01:20:32,620
Speaker 3: Yeah. Smearing.

1502
01:20:32,720 --> 01:20:32,920
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1503
01:20:33,700 --> 01:20:35,240
Speaker 3: So in the next scene, we're going to meet a

1504
01:20:35,300 --> 01:20:40,410
Speaker 3: major secondary character, Cleet. This is Louis Delgrande. Uh, cleat

1505
01:20:40,610 --> 01:20:43,610
Speaker 3: is again, the superintendent of the building next door. And

1506
01:20:43,630 --> 01:20:46,230
Speaker 3: he comes over to help Bart with the dishwasher problem

1507
01:20:46,270 --> 01:20:50,460
Speaker 3: because his regular plumber can't get there until the following week. Um,

1508
01:20:50,910 --> 01:20:53,530
Speaker 3: cleat again is sort of the archetype of the like

1509
01:20:53,610 --> 01:20:56,800
Speaker 3: post Vietnam survivalist. We're going to learn that he's full

1510
01:20:56,840 --> 01:20:59,400
Speaker 3: of rat facts and he thinks of rats as a

1511
01:20:59,439 --> 01:21:03,610
Speaker 3: kind of demonic force. First, he argues with Bart about

1512
01:21:03,630 --> 01:21:06,689
Speaker 3: the cause of the leak because Bart's like, no, it

1513
01:21:06,770 --> 01:21:09,530
Speaker 3: can't be the dishwasher. It's brand new. Top of the line.

1514
01:21:09,570 --> 01:21:13,009
Speaker 3: I just installed it. But Cleet shows him a chewed

1515
01:21:13,090 --> 01:21:16,540
Speaker 3: up cable or hose and he asks, you got any mice?

1516
01:21:16,680 --> 01:21:20,180
Speaker 3: And Bart says very confidently, no mice here. Cleet says,

1517
01:21:20,240 --> 01:21:23,020
Speaker 3: maybe it's a rat. And Bart says, no mice, no

1518
01:21:23,080 --> 01:21:26,510
Speaker 3: rat in this house. But Cleet explains that he obviously

1519
01:21:26,550 --> 01:21:30,850
Speaker 3: does have a rat and that exterminators are for old ladies.

1520
01:21:30,970 --> 01:21:33,729
Speaker 3: They're for people who are afraid of getting their hands dirty.

1521
01:21:33,750 --> 01:21:38,370
Speaker 3: And Bart is he's clearly like being baited. He's like,

1522
01:21:38,490 --> 01:21:40,810
Speaker 3: I'm not afraid of getting my hands dirty. I renovated

1523
01:21:40,850 --> 01:21:46,090
Speaker 3: this place myself. So Cleet is tempting Bart into this

1524
01:21:46,170 --> 01:21:50,350
Speaker 3: mad rat quest by sort of implying questions about his manhood.

1525
01:21:51,400 --> 01:21:53,360
Speaker 3: And he offers advice. He says, you've got to put

1526
01:21:53,430 --> 01:21:56,410
Speaker 3: out traps, but not regular traps, because what you have

1527
01:21:56,470 --> 01:22:00,250
Speaker 3: here is an intelligent rat. This kind of rat is

1528
01:22:00,290 --> 01:22:02,500
Speaker 3: just going to snatch the food out of the trap

1529
01:22:02,580 --> 01:22:05,930
Speaker 3: and then run around here creating general havoc. And then

1530
01:22:05,970 --> 01:22:08,130
Speaker 3: this leads to comments out of nowhere about how the

1531
01:22:08,189 --> 01:22:11,210
Speaker 3: rat should be in the Bronx. Feels like dialogue from 1990,

1532
01:22:11,210 --> 01:22:12,750
Speaker 3: the Bronx Warriors.

1533
01:22:13,030 --> 01:22:15,150
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, I guess this matches up with the

1534
01:22:15,189 --> 01:22:17,070
Speaker 2: state of the Bronx at the time where it was

1535
01:22:17,150 --> 01:22:19,120
Speaker 2: in a great deal of disrepair. It's like, this is

1536
01:22:19,160 --> 01:22:21,300
Speaker 2: the kind of place where rats are and should be

1537
01:22:21,360 --> 01:22:25,240
Speaker 2: running around. Not the rest of the boroughs, but I mean,

1538
01:22:25,500 --> 01:22:26,059
Speaker 2: they're everywhere.

1539
01:22:26,300 --> 01:22:27,780
Speaker 3: I'm rich. I can't have rats.

1540
01:22:27,979 --> 01:22:31,179
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, that is part of the texture that

1541
01:22:31,240 --> 01:22:33,240
Speaker 2: the film is exploring, right?

1542
01:22:33,260 --> 01:22:33,760
Speaker 3: Totally, yeah.

1543
01:22:34,000 --> 01:22:36,740
Speaker 2: You know, it's like I... I have a certain amount

1544
01:22:36,760 --> 01:22:38,540
Speaker 2: of money. I have a certain amount of control over

1545
01:22:38,580 --> 01:22:41,140
Speaker 2: my life. This is not something that should be part

1546
01:22:41,160 --> 01:22:43,820
Speaker 2: of the picture, and yet it shows up anyway. And again,

1547
01:22:43,860 --> 01:22:46,100
Speaker 2: I think we can all relate to that, sometimes in

1548
01:22:46,120 --> 01:22:48,540
Speaker 2: the form of an actual rodent, but other times it

1549
01:22:48,560 --> 01:22:50,460
Speaker 2: could be anything else. It could be an illness. It

1550
01:22:50,500 --> 01:22:53,020
Speaker 2: could be some other sort of scenario we have no

1551
01:22:53,060 --> 01:22:56,170
Speaker 2: control over, and then we have to confront something of

1552
01:22:56,229 --> 01:22:56,970
Speaker 2: unknown origin.

1553
01:22:57,850 --> 01:23:01,790
Speaker 3: Yeah. So the next day, Peter Weller puts out traps.

1554
01:23:01,930 --> 01:23:03,809
Speaker 3: We see a scene of him with a knife chopping

1555
01:23:03,870 --> 01:23:05,630
Speaker 3: up a block of cheese to bake the trap.

1556
01:23:05,650 --> 01:23:09,490
Speaker 2: Oh, and he's so particular. He's not going halfway on this.

1557
01:23:09,530 --> 01:23:12,830
Speaker 2: He's getting very precise cuts of what seems like very

1558
01:23:12,870 --> 01:23:16,269
Speaker 2: good cheese. This is not moldy stuff from the bin.

1559
01:23:16,340 --> 01:23:17,300
Speaker 2: This is the good stuff.

1560
01:23:17,560 --> 01:23:22,160
Speaker 3: He later tells Louis Delgrande that he found the sharpest

1561
01:23:22,400 --> 01:23:24,060
Speaker 3: cheddar he could find. Yeah.

1562
01:23:24,650 --> 01:23:27,610
Speaker 2: Yeah, only the bet. Like this is the, he applied

1563
01:23:27,650 --> 01:23:29,820
Speaker 2: the same logic to like picking up the dishwasher. It's like,

1564
01:23:29,860 --> 01:23:32,460
Speaker 2: I'm going to solve this problem effectively and get the

1565
01:23:32,520 --> 01:23:34,700
Speaker 2: best stuff, best traps, best cheese.

1566
01:23:35,520 --> 01:23:39,160
Speaker 3: So we get a peak. Meanwhile, what's happening in Vermont

1567
01:23:39,200 --> 01:23:41,120
Speaker 3: with the rest of the family, uh, they're at this

1568
01:23:41,220 --> 01:23:44,620
Speaker 3: resort surrounded with snow and Meg, Peter and grandpa are

1569
01:23:44,660 --> 01:23:47,240
Speaker 3: playing in the heated pool. Uh, Meg gets on the

1570
01:23:47,350 --> 01:23:50,809
Speaker 3: phone with Bart and they're also kind of strategizing about

1571
01:23:50,850 --> 01:23:54,800
Speaker 3: his career. Bart is obviously feeling discouraged. He thinks this

1572
01:23:55,180 --> 01:23:58,340
Speaker 3: other guy, his rival, Hall, is going to outmaneuver him.

1573
01:23:58,920 --> 01:24:02,320
Speaker 3: And he opines that working hard does not guarantee anything.

1574
01:24:03,140 --> 01:24:06,220
Speaker 3: Meg is generally just supportive and encouraging and gives him

1575
01:24:06,280 --> 01:24:09,019
Speaker 3: some advice. But we see in the scene also that

1576
01:24:09,360 --> 01:24:13,300
Speaker 3: Bart is getting significantly distracted from work, thinking about this rat.

1577
01:24:13,620 --> 01:24:16,470
Speaker 3: Lori has to keep reminding him of things. So he's

1578
01:24:16,490 --> 01:24:19,800
Speaker 3: going into a meeting with somebody and she's like, you've

1579
01:24:19,820 --> 01:24:21,880
Speaker 3: got this meeting coming up. And he's like, what's this

1580
01:24:21,939 --> 01:24:23,800
Speaker 3: dork's name? And she has to tell him.

1581
01:24:24,760 --> 01:24:27,019
Speaker 2: Now, have we already, is it in the previous meeting

1582
01:24:27,240 --> 01:24:31,759
Speaker 2: with Cleet where he tells them, he has his explanation

1583
01:24:31,780 --> 01:24:34,310
Speaker 2: where it's like, you only think about the rat like 20%

1584
01:24:34,310 --> 01:24:35,230
Speaker 2: of your day.

1585
01:24:35,530 --> 01:24:36,330
Speaker 3: Oh, that's coming up.

1586
01:24:36,450 --> 01:24:38,170
Speaker 2: That's coming up. But you're right. Yeah, that's a good point.

1587
01:24:40,380 --> 01:24:42,519
Speaker 2: Like the rat's thinking about you all the time. And

1588
01:24:42,540 --> 01:24:44,920
Speaker 2: we're already beginning to see like the percentage of time

1589
01:24:44,960 --> 01:24:50,090
Speaker 2: he's devoting to rat think. This may be a bit much. Also,

1590
01:24:50,189 --> 01:24:51,950
Speaker 2: this scene where he's on the phone, if it's not

1591
01:24:51,990 --> 01:24:53,729
Speaker 2: this scene, it's another scene where he's on the phone

1592
01:24:54,450 --> 01:24:56,490
Speaker 2: in his office, which is, you know, on the upper

1593
01:24:56,570 --> 01:24:58,870
Speaker 2: floors of some sort of supposed to be a Manhattan

1594
01:24:58,890 --> 01:25:02,670
Speaker 2: high rise and, you know, skyscraper. And it's shot in

1595
01:25:02,729 --> 01:25:05,330
Speaker 2: such a way like it's shot at an angle from

1596
01:25:05,350 --> 01:25:08,550
Speaker 2: the ceiling. So and he's and he's seated at his

1597
01:25:08,610 --> 01:25:12,450
Speaker 2: desk close to the window. So there's this wonderful sense

1598
01:25:12,910 --> 01:25:16,490
Speaker 2: of there being like a drop beneath him, like as

1599
01:25:16,610 --> 01:25:20,470
Speaker 2: if he is on the ledge of that building, as

1600
01:25:20,570 --> 01:25:22,440
Speaker 2: if there is a risk of plummeting. And I just

1601
01:25:22,479 --> 01:25:25,280
Speaker 2: thought it was just such a well-composed shot that ties

1602
01:25:25,320 --> 01:25:26,780
Speaker 2: into the theme of the picture.

1603
01:25:27,000 --> 01:25:38,740
Speaker 3: That's a good note. You're right. So later that night,

1604
01:25:39,140 --> 01:25:42,020
Speaker 3: Bart comes home. He checks the traps. No luck. Rat

1605
01:25:42,060 --> 01:25:44,640
Speaker 3: hasn't touched anything. And at first he thinks maybe there

1606
01:25:44,700 --> 01:25:46,979
Speaker 3: is no rat. And Cleet's just running me up a tree.

1607
01:25:47,340 --> 01:25:49,520
Speaker 3: You know, there's nothing going on here. But then we

1608
01:25:49,540 --> 01:25:52,940
Speaker 3: cut immediately to the next morning where Bart is pulling

1609
01:25:52,979 --> 01:25:55,840
Speaker 3: a slice of white bread out of the bread bag

1610
01:25:55,920 --> 01:25:59,390
Speaker 3: on the counter. And there's this long, straight black hair

1611
01:25:59,650 --> 01:26:02,050
Speaker 3: on it. He's like, what is this? And then he

1612
01:26:02,150 --> 01:26:06,080
Speaker 3: presses the bread to his lips and nose and smells it.

1613
01:26:06,160 --> 01:26:08,500
Speaker 3: I was like, what? Is he turning to smell for

1614
01:26:08,600 --> 01:26:10,000
Speaker 3: rat urine on the bread?

1615
01:26:10,020 --> 01:26:13,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, we didn't get enough really to go

1616
01:26:13,460 --> 01:26:15,810
Speaker 2: on here, but I like kind of the idea that

1617
01:26:16,210 --> 01:26:18,750
Speaker 2: maybe this hair is not of rat origin, you know,

1618
01:26:18,810 --> 01:26:20,730
Speaker 2: but it's like he's at the point now where he's

1619
01:26:20,850 --> 01:26:23,590
Speaker 2: overthinking all of this. Like I found, I can't explain

1620
01:26:23,610 --> 01:26:25,910
Speaker 2: this hair, could be a rat. I don't know what

1621
01:26:25,939 --> 01:26:26,979
Speaker 2: happened here, could be the rat.

1622
01:26:27,770 --> 01:26:30,630
Speaker 3: So he checks the traps again after this, and now,

1623
01:26:30,970 --> 01:26:35,510
Speaker 3: totally different story. The traps are not only triggered, they're destroyed,

1624
01:26:35,610 --> 01:26:38,950
Speaker 3: but there's no rat in them. So bait gone, no rat,

1625
01:26:39,330 --> 01:26:43,890
Speaker 3: springs and hardware all twisted, wooden base chewed to pieces.

1626
01:26:43,990 --> 01:26:46,550
Speaker 3: So not only did the traps fail to kill the rat,

1627
01:26:46,610 --> 01:26:47,890
Speaker 3: the rat killed the traps.

1628
01:26:49,250 --> 01:26:49,570
Speaker 2: It's true.

1629
01:26:49,920 --> 01:26:52,719
Speaker 3: Time to have another check-in with Cleet. So Bart brings

1630
01:26:52,760 --> 01:26:56,500
Speaker 3: this grocery bag full of chewed-up traps to Cleet's weird

1631
01:26:56,580 --> 01:27:01,790
Speaker 3: basement workshop. Cleet reacts by insulting the traps. He's like,

1632
01:27:01,810 --> 01:27:06,769
Speaker 3: who gave you these, your grandma? According to Cleet, these

1633
01:27:06,830 --> 01:27:08,770
Speaker 3: traps are no good. He's like, you've got to get

1634
01:27:08,790 --> 01:27:12,500
Speaker 3: yourself the real deal traps, the kind with steel jaws

1635
01:27:12,540 --> 01:27:13,880
Speaker 3: that look like a shark's mouth.

1636
01:27:14,540 --> 01:27:18,140
Speaker 2: I believe these are called T-Rex traps nowadays. And they are,

1637
01:27:18,180 --> 01:27:21,600
Speaker 2: in fact, a real technology for killing rodents. But the

1638
01:27:21,700 --> 01:27:23,620
Speaker 2: ones the version that we see in the film, I

1639
01:27:23,640 --> 01:27:25,509
Speaker 2: don't know if this is accurate to what they had

1640
01:27:25,520 --> 01:27:29,170
Speaker 2: in the 80s, but they look medieval. They look like

1641
01:27:29,570 --> 01:27:32,990
Speaker 2: like something like like the T-Rex traps that I see today,

1642
01:27:33,710 --> 01:27:37,590
Speaker 2: like transported into some sort of medieval torture technology.

1643
01:27:37,970 --> 01:27:41,610
Speaker 3: Yeah, they kind of look like something made by Dr. Claw. Yeah. Yeah.

1644
01:27:42,370 --> 01:27:45,310
Speaker 3: So Cleet in this scene explains that there are exactly

1645
01:27:45,430 --> 01:27:47,990
Speaker 3: five ways to kill a rat. Only five. Do you

1646
01:27:48,010 --> 01:27:48,689
Speaker 3: want to know what they are?

1647
01:27:48,710 --> 01:27:50,690
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you left one out, but let's go

1648
01:27:50,710 --> 01:27:51,380
Speaker 2: with it.

1649
01:27:51,520 --> 01:27:54,500
Speaker 3: He says, you trap them, you poison them, you knock

1650
01:27:54,520 --> 01:27:59,360
Speaker 3: them on the head, you gas them, or you shoot them. Okay.

1651
01:27:59,840 --> 01:28:01,680
Speaker 2: He seems very sure of it. And one thing I

1652
01:28:01,740 --> 01:28:06,620
Speaker 2: love is that, so he hands Cleet this trap that's

1653
01:28:06,660 --> 01:28:08,820
Speaker 2: been destroyed by the rat, chewed up by the rat.

1654
01:28:09,280 --> 01:28:12,820
Speaker 2: Cleet almost immediately after he sets this down, grabs a

1655
01:28:12,880 --> 01:28:15,450
Speaker 2: grape out of a fruit bowl on his desk, eats it,

1656
01:28:15,830 --> 01:28:18,349
Speaker 2: Then opens up his own refrigerator, gets an apple out,

1657
01:28:18,430 --> 01:28:23,390
Speaker 2: starts eating that. No hand washing or anything. I don't know.

1658
01:28:23,410 --> 01:28:24,910
Speaker 2: I just loved it. It was such a great choice.

1659
01:28:25,310 --> 01:28:28,830
Speaker 3: Yeah, really good. And later in the scene, he's like

1660
01:28:29,010 --> 01:28:32,050
Speaker 3: offering fruit to Peter Weller, too. He's like, you want

1661
01:28:32,090 --> 01:28:32,570
Speaker 3: a pear?

1662
01:28:32,630 --> 01:28:35,970
Speaker 2: Here. Yeah, I think maybe there is a sense of like,

1663
01:28:36,510 --> 01:28:38,550
Speaker 2: Cleet is a man of the street. Like he is

1664
01:28:38,670 --> 01:28:41,220
Speaker 2: in the trenches with the rats. he is a part

1665
01:28:41,260 --> 01:28:44,960
Speaker 2: of the world that um that bart feels like he

1666
01:28:45,000 --> 01:28:47,420
Speaker 2: has like ascended out of and maybe has a lot

1667
01:28:47,460 --> 01:28:50,280
Speaker 2: also a lot of anxieties about like leaving behind that

1668
01:28:50,300 --> 01:28:53,660
Speaker 2: kind of do it yourself um you know mentality and

1669
01:28:53,700 --> 01:28:56,780
Speaker 2: getting into this sort of uh this different realm of

1670
01:28:56,840 --> 01:28:58,900
Speaker 2: society so i think there's a lot of texture here

1671
01:28:58,939 --> 01:28:59,350
Speaker 2: as well.

1672
01:28:59,810 --> 01:29:02,620
Speaker 3: This leads into the part where Cleet gives the speech

1673
01:29:02,700 --> 01:29:05,600
Speaker 3: about how the rat is a survivor. He tells the

1674
01:29:05,640 --> 01:29:07,800
Speaker 3: story about how when he was in the army, he

1675
01:29:08,400 --> 01:29:11,970
Speaker 3: was present for nuclear weapons testing at this island in

1676
01:29:12,830 --> 01:29:15,930
Speaker 3: the Pacific. And he talks about how the blast on

1677
01:29:15,970 --> 01:29:20,179
Speaker 3: this island killed everything, every life form down to the amoebas,

1678
01:29:20,460 --> 01:29:25,389
Speaker 3: except rats. They survived. I went digging around on this.

1679
01:29:25,729 --> 01:29:28,390
Speaker 3: From what I read, this is not exactly true as

1680
01:29:28,470 --> 01:29:33,030
Speaker 3: stated for Pacific Island tests that killed every other life

1681
01:29:33,070 --> 01:29:36,230
Speaker 3: form but rats, but it is true. It's sort of

1682
01:29:36,450 --> 01:29:41,780
Speaker 3: directionally true. It's true that in many Pacific Islands, nuclear

1683
01:29:41,820 --> 01:29:45,260
Speaker 3: testing did kill a lot of the native wildlife, but

1684
01:29:45,380 --> 01:29:48,240
Speaker 3: rats survived in incredibly harsh conditions.

1685
01:29:48,680 --> 01:29:52,130
Speaker 2: Yeah, so maybe not factually correct, but still spiritually correct.

1686
01:29:52,750 --> 01:29:55,830
Speaker 2: in that rats are great survivors, and ultimately, like, survivors

1687
01:29:56,550 --> 01:29:59,510
Speaker 2: in their lineage of mass extinction events, you know? Like,

1688
01:29:59,550 --> 01:30:01,450
Speaker 2: they are long-term survivors. Yeah.

1689
01:30:01,810 --> 01:30:04,960
Speaker 3: There's also a weird aside in this scene where Cleet

1690
01:30:05,140 --> 01:30:07,980
Speaker 3: starts commenting on, like, the legs of women who go

1691
01:30:08,040 --> 01:30:11,900
Speaker 3: walking by the sidewalk-level window looking out from the basement.

1692
01:30:12,479 --> 01:30:12,979
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1693
01:30:13,140 --> 01:30:15,140
Speaker 3: I think it's just something about, like, this guy's a

1694
01:30:15,160 --> 01:30:15,680
Speaker 3: little off.

1695
01:30:16,040 --> 01:30:18,470
Speaker 2: He's a little off, but also he's street-level. He's beneath

1696
01:30:18,510 --> 01:30:21,820
Speaker 2: the street, even. I don't know. He's seeing the world

1697
01:30:21,860 --> 01:30:23,560
Speaker 2: like a rat in a way, you know, like he's

1698
01:30:23,620 --> 01:30:25,590
Speaker 2: seeing the lower leg.

1699
01:30:25,890 --> 01:30:27,770
Speaker 3: But then he snaps back to the subject with that

1700
01:30:27,830 --> 01:30:30,930
Speaker 3: comment you mentioned earlier. So he's putting new perspective on

1701
01:30:30,970 --> 01:30:33,290
Speaker 3: this for Bart. He's like, you spend like 20% of

1702
01:30:33,729 --> 01:30:37,339
Speaker 3: your time thinking about the rat. The rat spends 100%

1703
01:30:37,340 --> 01:30:40,700
Speaker 3: of its time thinking about you, figuring out ways to

1704
01:30:40,780 --> 01:30:43,740
Speaker 3: outsmart you. He says, cause he's a rat. He's got

1705
01:30:43,780 --> 01:30:46,090
Speaker 3: nothing better to do. You want a pair?

1706
01:30:47,380 --> 01:30:50,099
Speaker 2: So it becomes clear that Bart needs to up those numbers.

1707
01:30:50,140 --> 01:30:53,660
Speaker 2: He needs to increase that percentage. And that's basically what

1708
01:30:53,680 --> 01:30:56,240
Speaker 2: we see. More and more of his day, more and

1709
01:30:56,280 --> 01:30:59,010
Speaker 2: more of his thoughts are put into the war against

1710
01:30:59,060 --> 01:30:59,429
Speaker 2: the rat.

1711
01:30:59,900 --> 01:31:07,710
Speaker 3: I think maybe, but maybe Cleet's lack of sanitation here,

1712
01:31:07,770 --> 01:31:12,230
Speaker 3: his lack of hygiene with respect to rat-contaminated objects, could

1713
01:31:12,240 --> 01:31:14,770
Speaker 3: be contributing to his ability to think like a rat.

1714
01:31:14,810 --> 01:31:18,210
Speaker 3: Maybe he's consuming a bit of the rat's microbiome here

1715
01:31:18,689 --> 01:31:21,430
Speaker 3: and that's contributing to his helping him see from the

1716
01:31:21,490 --> 01:31:22,990
Speaker 3: rat's perspective. What do you think?

1717
01:31:23,290 --> 01:31:26,560
Speaker 2: Maybe, but maybe also the thing they don't, this is

1718
01:31:26,660 --> 01:31:29,660
Speaker 2: just me going off on it here, but maybe Bart

1719
01:31:29,760 --> 01:31:31,840
Speaker 2: is already in a situation where, you know, he doesn't

1720
01:31:31,880 --> 01:31:33,760
Speaker 2: have fruit setting out right now. That fruit's going in

1721
01:31:33,780 --> 01:31:34,260
Speaker 2: the fridge.

1722
01:31:34,520 --> 01:31:34,740
Speaker 3: Right.

1723
01:31:34,820 --> 01:31:37,160
Speaker 2: And then he's washing it before he eats it, you know,

1724
01:31:37,189 --> 01:31:40,460
Speaker 2: on top of anything else. Cleet, Cleet's got his rat

1725
01:31:40,479 --> 01:31:42,730
Speaker 2: problem under control. There are no rats around here. Rat

1726
01:31:42,740 --> 01:31:46,559
Speaker 2: comes around here, he kills it. He stabs it, drowns it,

1727
01:31:47,090 --> 01:31:50,250
Speaker 2: whatever the five things are. Electric chair, yeah. So it's

1728
01:31:50,290 --> 01:31:52,750
Speaker 2: like he can leave fruit out because he's in control.

1729
01:31:53,689 --> 01:31:56,800
Speaker 3: That's a very good observation. I think that must be true.

1730
01:31:57,220 --> 01:32:00,320
Speaker 3: I was just thinking about Cleet's other, his more extreme

1731
01:32:00,420 --> 01:32:04,080
Speaker 3: rat facts. And there's a scene later where Cleet explains

1732
01:32:04,140 --> 01:32:07,179
Speaker 3: that rats go right for your private parts, he says.

1733
01:32:07,950 --> 01:32:10,090
Speaker 3: He says they want to eat the soft parts off

1734
01:32:10,130 --> 01:32:14,340
Speaker 3: of human bodies, meaning genitals and then eyes. He says

1735
01:32:14,400 --> 01:32:17,820
Speaker 3: they love eyes. And he says they eat straight through

1736
01:32:17,840 --> 01:32:23,140
Speaker 3: to your brain from the eyes. But anyway, long story short,

1737
01:32:23,160 --> 01:32:26,700
Speaker 3: the connection I suddenly thought of was eyes to grapes. Maybe.

1738
01:32:26,720 --> 01:32:27,979
Speaker 3: There you go. Something there.

1739
01:32:28,740 --> 01:32:29,330
Speaker 2: Yeah, could be.

1740
01:32:29,970 --> 01:32:31,950
Speaker 3: I don't know what the connection is. It just seems

1741
01:32:32,010 --> 01:32:33,550
Speaker 3: like grapes are like eyes, aren't they?

1742
01:32:33,770 --> 01:32:36,430
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I know. I hear what you're laying down. Yeah.

1743
01:32:36,820 --> 01:32:41,200
Speaker 3: Okay. So Bart, uh, Bart begins to take increasing absences

1744
01:32:41,280 --> 01:32:43,599
Speaker 3: from work to think about the rat. Uh, he ducks

1745
01:32:43,729 --> 01:32:46,330
Speaker 3: out for an early lunch. He comes home, finds his

1746
01:32:46,390 --> 01:32:49,660
Speaker 3: mail and magazines all chewed up, uh, and that does it.

1747
01:32:49,689 --> 01:32:53,759
Speaker 3: So now he puts in these grizzly traps, the T-Rex traps. Uh,

1748
01:32:53,830 --> 01:32:56,530
Speaker 3: he creeps around with a tray of traps in his

1749
01:32:56,670 --> 01:32:59,519
Speaker 3: child's room, talking to the stuffed animals about where the

1750
01:32:59,560 --> 01:33:02,640
Speaker 3: best kill spot is. And he hides one of these

1751
01:33:02,660 --> 01:33:06,140
Speaker 3: horrible traps behind the child's bed. There's a scene of

1752
01:33:06,160 --> 01:33:08,620
Speaker 3: him testing the traps on a Superman doll where he

1753
01:33:08,660 --> 01:33:10,060
Speaker 3: chops Superman's head off.

1754
01:33:10,620 --> 01:33:13,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is all great stuff because it's like he

1755
01:33:14,320 --> 01:33:18,059
Speaker 2: is bringing this kind of violence, even it's not direct violence,

1756
01:33:18,080 --> 01:33:20,360
Speaker 2: but it's like violent energy into these sort of like

1757
01:33:20,460 --> 01:33:23,900
Speaker 2: safe spaces of the home, these sacred spaces that have

1758
01:33:23,979 --> 01:33:30,730
Speaker 2: already been invaded by the rat. So there's this weird

1759
01:33:30,790 --> 01:33:33,790
Speaker 2: like contamination coming in from both ways. He is fighting

1760
01:33:33,810 --> 01:33:36,990
Speaker 2: the monster of contamination, but also becoming a monster of

1761
01:33:37,010 --> 01:33:37,930
Speaker 2: contamination himself.

1762
01:33:38,350 --> 01:33:42,170
Speaker 3: After this, Bart starts really getting into rat research. We

1763
01:33:42,229 --> 01:33:45,979
Speaker 3: see him at the library reading articles and books about rats,

1764
01:33:46,840 --> 01:33:49,840
Speaker 3: leafing through these big blow-up photographs of people who had

1765
01:33:49,880 --> 01:33:53,300
Speaker 3: suffered rat bites. And he's looking at corpses. They got

1766
01:33:53,320 --> 01:33:55,240
Speaker 3: their faces eaten off by rats.

1767
01:33:55,640 --> 01:33:59,530
Speaker 2: Yeah, this research segment is a lot to watch. This

1768
01:34:00,070 --> 01:34:01,190
Speaker 2: is pretty disturbing stuff.

1769
01:34:01,800 --> 01:34:05,240
Speaker 3: By the way, from that featurette, they think this was

1770
01:34:05,380 --> 01:34:09,360
Speaker 3: probably shot at the Red Path Library at McGill University.

1771
01:34:10,140 --> 01:34:12,780
Speaker 3: So any McGill University students, if you want to find

1772
01:34:12,820 --> 01:34:16,440
Speaker 3: this location, if it's still standing, I'd be curious about that.

1773
01:34:17,620 --> 01:34:20,000
Speaker 3: In this scene, we see the title of the film.

1774
01:34:20,160 --> 01:34:24,000
Speaker 3: Bart is reviewing microfilm slides about rats on a machine.

1775
01:34:24,720 --> 01:34:27,320
Speaker 3: And one glowing slide comes up with the picture of

1776
01:34:27,360 --> 01:34:31,000
Speaker 3: a rat, species name, and it says rat of unknown origin.

1777
01:34:31,990 --> 01:34:34,519
Speaker 3: I was like, is this suggesting no one knows where

1778
01:34:34,610 --> 01:34:36,780
Speaker 3: rats came from? As in like they might be from

1779
01:34:36,840 --> 01:34:37,620
Speaker 3: outer space?

1780
01:34:39,439 --> 01:34:41,040
Speaker 2: I mean, in a film like this, it does kind

1781
01:34:41,060 --> 01:34:42,860
Speaker 2: of imply that. And I think that's one of the

1782
01:34:42,880 --> 01:34:45,220
Speaker 2: confusing things about the title is it maybe makes it

1783
01:34:45,260 --> 01:34:48,900
Speaker 2: sound like it's spacey. I think this is referring to

1784
01:34:50,340 --> 01:34:54,120
Speaker 2: different disagreements about like the actual, like where in the

1785
01:34:54,180 --> 01:34:57,090
Speaker 2: world the most common forms of rat and the most

1786
01:34:57,150 --> 01:35:00,729
Speaker 2: expansive species of rats originated from. you know, in their

1787
01:35:00,850 --> 01:35:02,360
Speaker 2: global spread since that time.

1788
01:35:03,460 --> 01:35:03,760
Speaker 3: Okay.

1789
01:35:04,400 --> 01:35:06,880
Speaker 2: So of unknown precise origin might be a better way

1790
01:35:06,900 --> 01:35:07,320
Speaker 2: of putting it.

1791
01:35:07,900 --> 01:35:09,660
Speaker 3: He also is just looking at a lot of stuff

1792
01:35:09,680 --> 01:35:12,420
Speaker 3: about rats and disease. It's a, it's a grim, it's

1793
01:35:12,460 --> 01:35:13,240
Speaker 3: a grim viewing.

1794
01:35:13,600 --> 01:35:13,900
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1795
01:35:13,960 --> 01:35:14,140
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1796
01:35:14,160 --> 01:35:17,540
Speaker 2: He is getting deeper and deeper. He's just freaking himself out.

1797
01:35:18,900 --> 01:35:20,099
Speaker 2: It's not a, not a good vibe.

1798
01:35:21,340 --> 01:35:25,340
Speaker 3: So let's skip ahead to the dinner party, right? That's

1799
01:35:25,360 --> 01:35:28,650
Speaker 3: where we're headed next. So The dinner party scene where

1800
01:35:28,710 --> 01:35:31,530
Speaker 3: the boss is trying to hold a tasteful, impressive dinner

1801
01:35:31,640 --> 01:35:36,160
Speaker 3: for these associates, and Bart absolutely makes it weird by

1802
01:35:36,300 --> 01:35:39,360
Speaker 3: cornering the branch manager at his end of the table,

1803
01:35:40,000 --> 01:35:44,840
Speaker 3: unleashing this rat speech, which is a frightening, bizarre philippic

1804
01:35:45,000 --> 01:35:48,740
Speaker 3: about the evils of rats and condemning humans that do

1805
01:35:48,800 --> 01:35:53,479
Speaker 3: not realize how awful rats are and humans that don't

1806
01:35:53,560 --> 01:35:56,650
Speaker 3: deal with them according to their nature. Uh, and I

1807
01:35:56,710 --> 01:35:59,850
Speaker 3: love how it starts by the boss throwing him a

1808
01:36:00,150 --> 01:36:03,690
Speaker 3: question about tennis and Bart is like, nah, I'm not

1809
01:36:03,710 --> 01:36:06,010
Speaker 3: going to hit that serve back. I'm going to talk

1810
01:36:06,030 --> 01:36:07,130
Speaker 3: about rats and death.

1811
01:36:07,510 --> 01:36:07,750
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1812
01:36:08,470 --> 01:36:11,720
Speaker 3: Uh, this speech makes a bunch of claims, uh, which

1813
01:36:11,939 --> 01:36:15,320
Speaker 3: I looked up some of them. They're of mixed credibility.

1814
01:36:15,439 --> 01:36:19,760
Speaker 3: Like he talks about how rats destroy 20% of all

1815
01:36:19,820 --> 01:36:23,780
Speaker 3: the grain produced worldwide. I don't think that's true. might

1816
01:36:23,820 --> 01:36:27,420
Speaker 3: be closer to true if you change rats to rodents

1817
01:36:27,540 --> 01:36:32,360
Speaker 3: generally and you change and and you say um at

1818
01:36:32,600 --> 01:36:36,340
Speaker 3: like all stages of the process like consume destroy or

1819
01:36:36,420 --> 01:36:38,939
Speaker 3: contaminate you might be getting a little bit closer to

1820
01:36:38,960 --> 01:36:43,000
Speaker 3: the truth there uh he talks about rats being responsible

1821
01:36:43,060 --> 01:36:45,720
Speaker 3: for the spread of the black death this i think

1822
01:36:46,020 --> 01:36:48,500
Speaker 3: used to be thought but is now disputed it seems

1823
01:36:48,580 --> 01:36:52,280
Speaker 3: now uh A lot of researchers think it more likely

1824
01:36:52,340 --> 01:36:55,780
Speaker 3: that human lice and fleas did most of the spreading

1825
01:36:55,939 --> 01:37:00,979
Speaker 3: of the plague bacterium. Of course, rat fleas played a

1826
01:37:01,040 --> 01:37:04,120
Speaker 3: role as like a reservoir of the disease. And rats

1827
01:37:04,200 --> 01:37:07,630
Speaker 3: absolutely do spread some diseases. But it seems that plague,

1828
01:37:08,150 --> 01:37:12,110
Speaker 3: the historical Black Death in particular, probably was not mostly

1829
01:37:12,170 --> 01:37:16,910
Speaker 3: spread by rats. He says rats can eat through lead

1830
01:37:16,950 --> 01:37:21,150
Speaker 3: and concrete. Uh, and he's talking about rats entering buildings

1831
01:37:21,270 --> 01:37:22,870
Speaker 3: through a toilet, uh.

1832
01:37:23,030 --> 01:37:24,170
Speaker 2: And leaving the same way.

1833
01:37:24,250 --> 01:37:24,430
Speaker 3: Right.

1834
01:37:24,470 --> 01:37:26,750
Speaker 2: Or you can like, yeah, go in and out.

1835
01:37:27,130 --> 01:37:29,929
Speaker 3: Yeah. Enter and leave through the toilet. Uh, he talks

1836
01:37:29,970 --> 01:37:33,009
Speaker 3: about eating rats. He says they taste like stringy chicken. Uh,

1837
01:37:33,660 --> 01:37:36,240
Speaker 3: this meanwhile, like Mari chicken is there gnawing on a

1838
01:37:36,280 --> 01:37:39,360
Speaker 3: bone and he gets really mad at the idea of

1839
01:37:39,500 --> 01:37:43,320
Speaker 3: religions that venerate rats or have rat gods. Bart rules

1840
01:37:43,380 --> 01:37:47,269
Speaker 3: this disgusting. I really wish I could do this at

1841
01:37:47,290 --> 01:37:50,870
Speaker 3: a CEO dinner party. Just like ruin the party. Wouldn't

1842
01:37:50,910 --> 01:37:51,350
Speaker 3: that be funny?

1843
01:37:51,390 --> 01:37:53,650
Speaker 2: I mean, you can. We just got to get invited.

1844
01:37:53,710 --> 01:37:54,230
Speaker 2: That's the thing.

1845
01:37:55,770 --> 01:37:58,430
Speaker 3: Anyway, yeah, I have so many great like bot fly

1846
01:37:58,510 --> 01:38:10,080
Speaker 3: things to say at dinner. So for the rest of

1847
01:38:10,100 --> 01:38:13,200
Speaker 3: the movie, I guess to move into more summary mode,

1848
01:38:13,680 --> 01:38:17,160
Speaker 3: Bart is going to continue to struggle with this rat,

1849
01:38:17,220 --> 01:38:20,450
Speaker 3: contend with it. It's going to become increasingly desperate. He's

1850
01:38:20,490 --> 01:38:26,470
Speaker 3: trying more and more drastic measures, exterminators, poison, one-on-one armed combat.

1851
01:38:27,470 --> 01:38:30,330
Speaker 3: A new character, Parallel to cleat comes on the scene

1852
01:38:30,890 --> 01:38:33,990
Speaker 3: and as far as i could tell unnamed salesman running

1853
01:38:34,030 --> 01:38:36,160
Speaker 3: a store that looks kind of like a mix between

1854
01:38:36,200 --> 01:38:39,120
Speaker 3: a hardware store and an army surplus.

1855
01:38:38,920 --> 01:38:40,720
Speaker 2: Yeah kind of a i mean you know like a

1856
01:38:41,200 --> 01:38:44,820
Speaker 2: basically like a an actual authentic new york hardware store

1857
01:38:44,860 --> 01:38:47,580
Speaker 2: you know it's kind of like bodega style stores where

1858
01:38:47,600 --> 01:38:49,300
Speaker 2: they have just a bunch of hardware stuff in the

1859
01:38:50,280 --> 01:38:52,260
Speaker 2: Like I never go into these because I am not

1860
01:38:52,300 --> 01:38:54,240
Speaker 2: a New Yorker. If I'm in New York, I'm definitely

1861
01:38:54,280 --> 01:38:56,610
Speaker 2: a tourist. I don't need anything in there, but it's

1862
01:38:56,630 --> 01:38:58,429
Speaker 2: always charming to see these places. Yeah.

1863
01:38:58,570 --> 01:39:02,390
Speaker 3: And I like this character too, though, reflecting on it

1864
01:39:02,450 --> 01:39:04,390
Speaker 3: the second time I watched, I kind of feel like

1865
01:39:04,950 --> 01:39:07,849
Speaker 3: they could have done to either make this character more

1866
01:39:07,939 --> 01:39:11,280
Speaker 3: distinct from Cleet or just make his scenes into additional

1867
01:39:11,360 --> 01:39:13,660
Speaker 3: scenes with Cleet. Because as it is, this guy is

1868
01:39:13,820 --> 01:39:15,439
Speaker 3: very similar to Cleet.

1869
01:39:15,939 --> 01:39:17,240
Speaker 2: And I'm all for more Cleet.

1870
01:39:17,520 --> 01:39:18,780
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly.

1871
01:39:18,900 --> 01:39:20,059
Speaker 2: He's so tremendous. Yeah.

1872
01:39:20,979 --> 01:39:24,729
Speaker 3: Um, yeah, he's like just quite, quite similar vibes. He's

1873
01:39:24,770 --> 01:39:28,729
Speaker 3: a weird squirrely survivalist type with strong negative opinions about

1874
01:39:28,850 --> 01:39:31,590
Speaker 3: rats and extreme views on how to kill them. So

1875
01:39:31,630 --> 01:39:35,290
Speaker 3: he's kind of cleat, but even more so. Yeah. Uh,

1876
01:39:35,350 --> 01:39:38,390
Speaker 3: so in one scene, he sells Bart a poison that

1877
01:39:38,430 --> 01:39:41,710
Speaker 3: he explains will give the rat a desperate, unnaturally urgent

1878
01:39:41,750 --> 01:39:44,430
Speaker 3: sense of thirst and the rat will bolt for whatever

1879
01:39:44,490 --> 01:39:49,269
Speaker 3: water it can find. So, uh, uh, He tells Bart

1880
01:39:49,310 --> 01:39:51,630
Speaker 3: he has to cut off every bit of access to water,

1881
01:39:51,650 --> 01:39:55,309
Speaker 3: nail down the toilet lids, and then put this stuff out.

1882
01:39:55,850 --> 01:39:57,810
Speaker 3: The rat's going to eat it and then rush down

1883
01:39:57,850 --> 01:40:00,650
Speaker 3: to the sewer, drink the water there until it swells

1884
01:40:00,710 --> 01:40:04,570
Speaker 3: up like a balloon and pops. Pretty nasty pitch. This

1885
01:40:04,610 --> 01:40:05,269
Speaker 3: does not work.

1886
01:40:06,010 --> 01:40:08,730
Speaker 2: Also, the details, the grisly details are not particularly important.

1887
01:40:09,410 --> 01:40:10,769
Speaker 2: These are not plot relevant, really.

1888
01:40:11,110 --> 01:40:13,950
Speaker 3: Yeah, nothing really happens with that. It's just interesting that

1889
01:40:13,990 --> 01:40:17,590
Speaker 3: he goes through the whole description. Somewhere in here we

1890
01:40:17,630 --> 01:40:20,100
Speaker 3: get the toilet bowl surprise scene where Bart wakes up

1891
01:40:20,140 --> 01:40:22,150
Speaker 3: at night to go pee and then he opens the

1892
01:40:22,189 --> 01:40:24,269
Speaker 3: toilet lid and the rat's just in there having a

1893
01:40:24,270 --> 01:40:26,560
Speaker 3: little bit of toilet time for itself.

1894
01:40:26,920 --> 01:40:30,960
Speaker 2: Thankfully, I mean, it is a standing pee. So it's

1895
01:40:31,340 --> 01:40:33,380
Speaker 2: maybe not as terrifying as it could have been. But

1896
01:40:33,420 --> 01:40:36,580
Speaker 2: this resonated with me because I think as I mentioned before,

1897
01:40:36,600 --> 01:40:38,460
Speaker 2: I saw a trailer for the movie Slugs when I

1898
01:40:38,500 --> 01:40:42,280
Speaker 2: was a kid in which not rodents, but like garden

1899
01:40:42,300 --> 01:40:44,980
Speaker 2: slugs are crawling over a toilet. And I think it's

1900
01:40:45,060 --> 01:40:47,660
Speaker 2: implied there's a scene in which someone is attacked on

1901
01:40:47,680 --> 01:40:50,660
Speaker 2: the toilet by slugs. And this messed me up as

1902
01:40:50,700 --> 01:40:52,500
Speaker 2: a kid. And for a while, I was like, I

1903
01:40:52,540 --> 01:40:54,620
Speaker 2: was always afraid that there might be a slug on

1904
01:40:54,680 --> 01:40:55,440
Speaker 2: or in the toilet.

1905
01:40:55,700 --> 01:40:58,780
Speaker 3: Toilet attacks are not fun to imagine. Yeah. Yeah.

1906
01:40:58,820 --> 01:41:00,019
Speaker 2: Don't get me started on ghoulies.

1907
01:41:00,420 --> 01:41:05,040
Speaker 3: Yeah. So Bart, in the second half of the movie,

1908
01:41:05,060 --> 01:41:07,840
Speaker 3: starts talking to the rat when he's alone in the house.

1909
01:41:08,500 --> 01:41:11,139
Speaker 3: This leads to one of the funniest scenes in the movie,

1910
01:41:11,160 --> 01:41:15,000
Speaker 3: which is when Bart tries to uh, intimidate the rat

1911
01:41:15,060 --> 01:41:17,090
Speaker 3: by being like, Hey, I'm not scared of you. I've

1912
01:41:17,120 --> 01:41:18,070
Speaker 3: tried marijuana.

1913
01:41:18,930 --> 01:41:20,910
Speaker 2: Yeah. He's like, I've been to college. You don't know

1914
01:41:20,930 --> 01:41:21,929
Speaker 2: who you're messing with. Yeah.

1915
01:41:21,970 --> 01:41:22,150
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1916
01:41:23,350 --> 01:41:27,590
Speaker 3: Uh, there is a scene where, uh, Bart brings his

1917
01:41:27,670 --> 01:41:31,269
Speaker 3: assistant Lori home with him one night after work. Uh,

1918
01:41:31,410 --> 01:41:33,610
Speaker 3: or it's just like, she has to come inside to

1919
01:41:33,680 --> 01:41:38,120
Speaker 3: get something, but then, uh, she's like, Hey, you know,

1920
01:41:38,160 --> 01:41:40,860
Speaker 3: you've been visibly distressed about something and she's trying to

1921
01:41:40,880 --> 01:41:43,200
Speaker 3: figure out what's wrong with him. They have a con

1922
01:41:43,350 --> 01:41:48,269
Speaker 3: a conversation about these old brownstone houses. Uh, she's like, Ooh,

1923
01:41:48,290 --> 01:41:49,790
Speaker 3: you know, I want to see how you did the

1924
01:41:49,870 --> 01:41:52,790
Speaker 3: decor upstairs. And he's like, Oh no, no. But then

1925
01:41:52,810 --> 01:41:56,630
Speaker 3: he starts musing about difficulties in his marriage. And I'm like, ah,

1926
01:41:56,670 --> 01:41:59,930
Speaker 3: don't do this, buddy. Uh, he makes a move to

1927
01:42:00,030 --> 01:42:02,950
Speaker 3: kiss her, but it never goes anywhere because of rat.

1928
01:42:03,189 --> 01:42:06,330
Speaker 3: Like he's preoccupied with rat. And then the rat makes

1929
01:42:06,410 --> 01:42:08,790
Speaker 3: a sound in the middle of the kiss, like as

1930
01:42:08,890 --> 01:42:13,519
Speaker 3: if it's intentionally trying to intervene. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.

1931
01:42:13,580 --> 01:42:16,860
Speaker 2: So at this point, he's probably up to like, I think, 60%

1932
01:42:16,860 --> 01:42:18,550
Speaker 2: rat time on his brain.

1933
01:42:19,630 --> 01:42:22,170
Speaker 3: So she leaves and then he recruits a cat. He

1934
01:42:22,670 --> 01:42:25,429
Speaker 3: finds a feral cat outside, brings it into the house,

1935
01:42:25,870 --> 01:42:28,689
Speaker 3: starts kissing it and like speaking lovingly to the cat.

1936
01:42:28,729 --> 01:42:30,650
Speaker 3: He gives it old oysters.

1937
01:42:31,070 --> 01:42:32,820
Speaker 2: I'm going to go ahead and say definitely not a

1938
01:42:32,840 --> 01:42:33,800
Speaker 2: feral cat.

1939
01:42:33,979 --> 01:42:36,680
Speaker 3: It's a very clean, healthy looking cat.

1940
01:42:36,700 --> 01:42:40,059
Speaker 2: If you can pick it up, it's probably not feral. Um,

1941
01:42:40,240 --> 01:42:41,910
Speaker 2: but he has obtained it and maybe that makes it

1942
01:42:41,950 --> 01:42:44,130
Speaker 2: more horrifying. Like he thinks he got a feral cat,

1943
01:42:44,150 --> 01:42:45,889
Speaker 2: but he just straight up stole somebody's cat.

1944
01:42:46,090 --> 01:42:49,470
Speaker 3: Yeah. Uh, the cat fails to kill the rat. In fact,

1945
01:42:49,530 --> 01:42:52,490
Speaker 3: the rat kills the cat. Bart finds the cat dead

1946
01:42:52,550 --> 01:42:55,530
Speaker 3: on top of the refrigerator, dripping blood into his milk.

1947
01:42:56,090 --> 01:42:56,610
Speaker 3: Very cool.

1948
01:42:57,050 --> 01:42:59,830
Speaker 2: But yeah, this is definitely the scene where he's, he's realizing, okay,

1949
01:42:59,850 --> 01:43:02,290
Speaker 2: maybe I can't solve this myself. I've got to bring

1950
01:43:02,330 --> 01:43:04,410
Speaker 2: in expertise. I've got to bring in a cat or,

1951
01:43:04,870 --> 01:43:07,010
Speaker 2: and you know, or the exterminators ends up being a,

1952
01:43:07,430 --> 01:43:11,479
Speaker 2: an option he explores. Um, but when these fail like that, just,

1953
01:43:11,900 --> 01:43:13,979
Speaker 2: I think we have this experience. Everyone has this experience

1954
01:43:14,000 --> 01:43:16,110
Speaker 2: as well. You know, like you think you have control

1955
01:43:16,150 --> 01:43:18,650
Speaker 2: over something and you think, okay, the way I actually

1956
01:43:18,689 --> 01:43:21,950
Speaker 2: have control over this is by going to experts. And yes,

1957
01:43:22,030 --> 01:43:24,290
Speaker 2: that is in general the way to go. But then

1958
01:43:24,510 --> 01:43:27,980
Speaker 2: if that doesn't 100% solve a problem, you can have

1959
01:43:28,020 --> 01:43:30,639
Speaker 2: that feeling where it just like kind of collapses back

1960
01:43:30,740 --> 01:43:33,160
Speaker 2: on you. And you just feel like you have super

1961
01:43:33,200 --> 01:43:36,460
Speaker 2: no control over everything. Like not only can you not

1962
01:43:36,540 --> 01:43:38,880
Speaker 2: solve it, but you can't pay somebody to just solve

1963
01:43:38,920 --> 01:43:39,400
Speaker 2: it for you.

1964
01:43:39,700 --> 01:43:43,390
Speaker 3: Totally. Yeah. Um, and, and Bart's there. I mean, he,

1965
01:43:43,530 --> 01:43:47,290
Speaker 3: he tries to hire exterminators, but nobody, everybody's booked. Nobody

1966
01:43:47,330 --> 01:43:50,310
Speaker 3: will come. There's another scene later where he, he gets

1967
01:43:50,390 --> 01:43:52,550
Speaker 3: an exterminator to come out to the house. He leaves

1968
01:43:52,610 --> 01:43:55,830
Speaker 3: a checkout for them, but when they get there, they

1969
01:43:55,890 --> 01:43:58,550
Speaker 3: leave because there's no check because the rat chewed it up.

1970
01:44:00,970 --> 01:44:04,250
Speaker 2: That was, yeah. I love that detail. That's rat smart.

1971
01:44:04,650 --> 01:44:04,879
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1972
01:44:05,229 --> 01:44:08,780
Speaker 3: Smart rats. Now, there end up being a bunch of

1973
01:44:08,920 --> 01:44:15,090
Speaker 3: basement confrontations. Bart goes into the creepy basement boiler room

1974
01:44:15,170 --> 01:44:18,230
Speaker 3: and finds a litter of rat pups down there. He

1975
01:44:18,270 --> 01:44:21,100
Speaker 3: discovers that the rat is a female, which the hardware

1976
01:44:21,120 --> 01:44:23,560
Speaker 3: store guy warned him about. He's like, the females are

1977
01:44:23,600 --> 01:44:27,230
Speaker 3: twice as bad. And as he is carrying the box

1978
01:44:27,310 --> 01:44:30,950
Speaker 3: of pups off somewhere, the mother rat scares him and

1979
01:44:30,970 --> 01:44:33,750
Speaker 3: he accidentally drops them and they fall through a grate

1980
01:44:33,850 --> 01:44:36,020
Speaker 3: in the floor. We never see what happened to them.

1981
01:44:36,060 --> 01:44:38,740
Speaker 3: We assume their fate is not good. And in like

1982
01:44:38,920 --> 01:44:41,880
Speaker 3: rage and agony, the mother rat chases Bart out of

1983
01:44:41,900 --> 01:44:45,220
Speaker 3: the basement until he slams and bolts the boiler room

1984
01:44:45,260 --> 01:44:49,420
Speaker 3: door behind him. Interesting visual symbol that pops up in

1985
01:44:49,439 --> 01:44:52,190
Speaker 3: the basement. There's a scale model of their house down there.

1986
01:44:52,580 --> 01:44:55,800
Speaker 3: which i think they were using during renovations for something

1987
01:44:55,820 --> 01:44:59,559
Speaker 3: um and at one point bart sticks his hand into

1988
01:44:59,580 --> 01:45:01,880
Speaker 3: the house and it like it gets caught in a

1989
01:45:01,939 --> 01:45:04,400
Speaker 3: rat trap that yeah because he placed one there earlier

1990
01:45:04,420 --> 01:45:06,740
Speaker 3: i think and then he's like going to check it

1991
01:45:06,780 --> 01:45:09,019
Speaker 3: to reload it and it's one of it's just an

1992
01:45:09,100 --> 01:45:11,140
Speaker 3: awful scene to watch because you know it's going to

1993
01:45:11,180 --> 01:45:15,870
Speaker 3: happen um and it does happen yeah i i I

1994
01:45:16,070 --> 01:45:18,030
Speaker 3: was going to say, I also thought that these scenes

1995
01:45:18,210 --> 01:45:20,870
Speaker 3: in the cellar were interesting after watching that bit with

1996
01:45:20,930 --> 01:45:23,979
Speaker 3: the screenwriter who pointed out that originally, I guess in

1997
01:45:23,990 --> 01:45:27,139
Speaker 3: the original script and maybe in the original book, Bart

1998
01:45:27,180 --> 01:45:30,500
Speaker 3: was too afraid to go into the cellar. And this

1999
01:45:30,540 --> 01:45:32,240
Speaker 3: is one of the things that they worked out, I

2000
01:45:32,260 --> 01:45:35,200
Speaker 3: think maybe worked out with Peter Weller, where they were like,

2001
01:45:35,280 --> 01:45:38,360
Speaker 3: what if he's bolder? What if he's not afraid to

2002
01:45:38,400 --> 01:45:41,670
Speaker 3: go in the cellar? And I think that, yeah, it's

2003
01:45:41,689 --> 01:45:45,900
Speaker 3: hard to imagine this film if Bart had been less

2004
01:45:46,320 --> 01:45:48,360
Speaker 3: willing to take the fight down there.

2005
01:45:48,420 --> 01:45:49,850
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally.

2006
01:45:51,170 --> 01:45:53,870
Speaker 3: After he gets his hand caught in the trap, by

2007
01:45:53,910 --> 01:45:55,750
Speaker 3: the way, this is the scene where he's sitting in

2008
01:45:55,770 --> 01:45:59,050
Speaker 3: the bathtub drinking J & B out of the bottle. Yeah, yeah.

2009
01:45:59,870 --> 01:46:02,809
Speaker 3: A lot of alcohol consumption in this movie. Did you

2010
01:46:02,850 --> 01:46:06,880
Speaker 3: notice that Bart is constantly drinking liquor and it's not

2011
01:46:06,920 --> 01:46:09,040
Speaker 3: addressed by any of the characters? I don't know if

2012
01:46:09,080 --> 01:46:11,750
Speaker 3: this is just supposed to be normal part of i

2013
01:46:12,030 --> 01:46:14,689
Speaker 3: don't know new york executive life at the time or

2014
01:46:14,790 --> 01:46:17,050
Speaker 3: if this is like we're supposed to see like bart

2015
01:46:17,070 --> 01:46:18,390
Speaker 3: has a problem here.

2016
01:46:18,310 --> 01:46:20,170
Speaker 2: Yeah i mean i think there's definitely a sense of

2017
01:46:20,210 --> 01:46:23,550
Speaker 2: like self-medicating uh you know in in just a like

2018
01:46:24,050 --> 01:46:27,030
Speaker 2: the normal sense or the more conventional sense but then

2019
01:46:27,070 --> 01:46:29,170
Speaker 2: of course he is actually like using the liquor i

2020
01:46:29,210 --> 01:46:31,889
Speaker 2: think on his wounds from the rat yeah that's.

2021
01:46:31,689 --> 01:46:35,950
Speaker 3: True Uh, okay. So we see Bart descending further and

2022
01:46:35,990 --> 01:46:39,150
Speaker 3: further into insanity. There's the scene where he's like bashing

2023
01:46:39,210 --> 01:46:41,410
Speaker 3: holes on the ceiling with a copy of Moby Dick

2024
01:46:41,439 --> 01:46:43,500
Speaker 3: trying to get the rat. Amazing.

2025
01:46:43,520 --> 01:46:46,160
Speaker 2: Cause the rats like knocking holes in the ceiling too.

2026
01:46:46,560 --> 01:46:49,500
Speaker 2: At this point, the rats don't becoming bolder and more destructive.

2027
01:46:49,960 --> 01:46:52,320
Speaker 3: There is the scene where he's at work and his

2028
01:46:52,420 --> 01:46:55,559
Speaker 3: briefcase spills out spills all over the floor in front

2029
01:46:55,600 --> 01:46:59,800
Speaker 3: of everybody. And it's all like poison rubber gloves. Yeah. Yeah.

2030
01:46:59,820 --> 01:47:02,530
Speaker 2: Big rubber gloves because. Yeah, because Cleet tells him it

2031
01:47:02,630 --> 01:47:04,630
Speaker 2: one way. It's like, you've been using rubber gloves the

2032
01:47:04,650 --> 01:47:06,770
Speaker 2: whole time, right? Because otherwise you're going to get your

2033
01:47:06,810 --> 01:47:08,630
Speaker 2: human scent on it and that ruins it. And it's

2034
01:47:08,670 --> 01:47:10,050
Speaker 2: this whole back and forth. He's like, you didn't tell

2035
01:47:10,090 --> 01:47:11,450
Speaker 2: me to get the gloves. And so he has to

2036
01:47:11,479 --> 01:47:11,950
Speaker 2: get the gloves.

2037
01:47:12,439 --> 01:47:15,680
Speaker 3: He starts sleeping in a hammock hanging from the ceiling

2038
01:47:15,700 --> 01:47:17,929
Speaker 3: because he's afraid of the rat crawling up on him.

2039
01:47:17,939 --> 01:47:20,019
Speaker 3: Because there's this scene where the rat crawls up on

2040
01:47:20,060 --> 01:47:23,240
Speaker 3: his bed earlier. At one point late in the film,

2041
01:47:23,280 --> 01:47:26,769
Speaker 3: he has an encounter with Cleet where obviously the tables

2042
01:47:26,810 --> 01:47:29,310
Speaker 3: have turned. Like at first, Cleet was the crazy one.

2043
01:47:29,770 --> 01:47:33,130
Speaker 3: but Bart has now lapped him. Bart's in the middle

2044
01:47:33,150 --> 01:47:35,860
Speaker 3: of making this rat killing club and testing it out

2045
01:47:35,920 --> 01:47:39,540
Speaker 3: on his furniture. And now he's weirded out by him. Yeah.

2046
01:47:39,580 --> 01:47:42,960
Speaker 2: Like he's transformed the, like the snap traps into this

2047
01:47:43,000 --> 01:47:46,520
Speaker 2: just brutal club. Like instead of like, I mean, it is, it's,

2048
01:47:46,720 --> 01:47:49,010
Speaker 2: it's like the technique of rat killing has become the

2049
01:47:49,090 --> 01:47:53,340
Speaker 2: most like base human violent option possible. It's just a,

2050
01:47:53,790 --> 01:47:56,810
Speaker 2: a spiked club for attacking rats. And yeah, cleat comes

2051
01:47:56,930 --> 01:48:00,400
Speaker 2: in and I don't recall if they even, Exchange words

2052
01:48:00,479 --> 01:48:03,179
Speaker 2: or if they do, it's very minimal, but it's more like, yeah,

2053
01:48:03,200 --> 01:48:06,800
Speaker 2: just that sort of observation that they have changed places here.

2054
01:48:07,360 --> 01:48:10,240
Speaker 2: And that one is that now Bart is the one

2055
01:48:10,260 --> 01:48:13,850
Speaker 2: that is has descended more into madness and paranoia.

2056
01:48:14,550 --> 01:48:17,429
Speaker 3: There's kind of a training montage where Bart is like

2057
01:48:17,490 --> 01:48:21,080
Speaker 3: hitting baseballs into the boiler room door. and working out.

2058
01:48:21,420 --> 01:48:24,920
Speaker 3: Like he's like Rocky getting ready to kill the rat.

2059
01:48:25,000 --> 01:48:26,420
Speaker 3: We are up to, I think, 100% at this point.

2060
01:48:26,479 --> 01:48:29,530
Speaker 2: Like rat is thinking about Bart 100% of the time

2061
01:48:29,870 --> 01:48:32,769
Speaker 2: and Bart is thinking about the rat 100% of the time.

2062
01:48:32,790 --> 01:48:34,110
Speaker 3: That's exactly where you want to be.

2063
01:48:34,110 --> 01:48:35,769
Speaker 2: And there may be no sleep.

2064
01:48:35,790 --> 01:48:39,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah. There's also the scene right before the final

2065
01:48:39,400 --> 01:48:42,379
Speaker 3: showdown where Bart's sitting in his bed with a beer,

2066
01:48:42,460 --> 01:48:46,600
Speaker 3: eating a pickle. And he finishes the pickle and then

2067
01:48:46,620 --> 01:48:48,700
Speaker 3: he's like, okay, time to make a baseball bat with

2068
01:48:48,760 --> 01:48:52,240
Speaker 3: nails in it. And so he covers himself with hockey

2069
01:48:52,300 --> 01:48:55,440
Speaker 3: pads and he makes this modified baseball bat with the

2070
01:48:55,520 --> 01:48:58,620
Speaker 3: rat trap pieces and the nails in. And there's a

2071
01:48:58,720 --> 01:49:02,200
Speaker 3: final action scene where they just, it's just mayhem throughout

2072
01:49:02,280 --> 01:49:05,760
Speaker 3: the house. Like almost every surface of the house is destroyed.

2073
01:49:05,800 --> 01:49:07,940
Speaker 3: They're chasing each other around the house, trying to kill

2074
01:49:08,080 --> 01:49:12,040
Speaker 3: one another. Bart smashes everything. He chases the rat into

2075
01:49:12,060 --> 01:49:15,160
Speaker 3: the boiler room, ends up smashing pipes there and flooding

2076
01:49:15,200 --> 01:49:15,820
Speaker 3: the basement.

2077
01:49:17,010 --> 01:49:19,510
Speaker 2: Model home destroyed, I believe at this point.

2078
01:49:20,030 --> 01:49:23,820
Speaker 3: Finally, after so long locked in Mortal Kombat, Bart kills

2079
01:49:23,900 --> 01:49:27,120
Speaker 3: the rat. He successfully beats it down with the studded

2080
01:49:27,180 --> 01:49:30,380
Speaker 3: baseball bat. I think it's in the house, in the

2081
01:49:30,400 --> 01:49:33,760
Speaker 3: model house when this happens. And then he sort of

2082
01:49:33,820 --> 01:49:38,689
Speaker 3: like wanders back up through his completely destroyed mansion. Just then,

2083
01:49:38,990 --> 01:49:41,750
Speaker 3: Meg and Peter arrive back home from their vacation. And

2084
01:49:41,810 --> 01:49:44,870
Speaker 3: Meg's like, what happened? And he says, I had a party.

2085
01:49:46,770 --> 01:49:49,190
Speaker 2: And then we pretty much go to credits at that point.

2086
01:49:49,310 --> 01:49:49,570
Speaker 2: That's it.

2087
01:49:49,610 --> 01:49:50,130
Speaker 3: That's the end.

2088
01:49:50,670 --> 01:49:53,010
Speaker 2: Which gives us, I mean, it a lot to think about.

2089
01:49:53,030 --> 01:49:55,150
Speaker 2: I'm still thinking about the ending and exactly how to

2090
01:49:55,210 --> 01:49:59,309
Speaker 2: take it. Like on one hand, I am absolutely glad

2091
01:49:59,340 --> 01:50:01,500
Speaker 2: that he defeated the rat. Cause I was, again, no

2092
01:50:01,540 --> 01:50:04,100
Speaker 2: matter how crazy he got, I was 100% on the

2093
01:50:04,140 --> 01:50:08,300
Speaker 2: human side here. Um, and, um, and then, so I,

2094
01:50:08,600 --> 01:50:11,939
Speaker 2: I didn't want the ending where the rat wins or

2095
01:50:11,979 --> 01:50:15,439
Speaker 2: the ending where he just burns down everything and maybe

2096
01:50:15,500 --> 01:50:18,520
Speaker 2: himself in the process. Like, I'm glad that he, is

2097
01:50:18,800 --> 01:50:21,880
Speaker 2: reunited with his family and maybe there is this reconnection

2098
01:50:21,920 --> 01:50:25,930
Speaker 2: with what's important um so i like yeah it's a

2099
01:50:25,930 --> 01:50:27,150
Speaker 2: positive aspect there.

2100
01:50:26,990 --> 01:50:29,769
Speaker 3: You're it's not moby dick in that regard because it

2101
01:50:29,810 --> 01:50:32,670
Speaker 3: doesn't have the ending of moby dick right yeah.

2102
01:50:33,560 --> 01:50:35,760
Speaker 2: But i imagine there's yeah some level i'm sure there

2103
01:50:35,780 --> 01:50:37,540
Speaker 2: are people out who watched it and thought the ending

2104
01:50:37,560 --> 01:50:39,240
Speaker 2: was maybe a cop-out it should have gone for a

2105
01:50:39,260 --> 01:50:41,780
Speaker 2: darker ending uh but i think there's still plenty of

2106
01:50:41,820 --> 01:50:45,160
Speaker 2: darkness to go around here like there are some severe

2107
01:50:45,280 --> 01:50:48,740
Speaker 2: underlying problems here that have not all been solved through

2108
01:50:48,900 --> 01:50:52,650
Speaker 2: rat murder. Um, and, uh, and they're going to have

2109
01:50:52,670 --> 01:50:53,349
Speaker 2: to work those out.

2110
01:50:53,830 --> 01:50:57,389
Speaker 3: Yeah. Coming back to Peter Weller's thoughts about the themes

2111
01:50:57,450 --> 01:50:58,910
Speaker 3: of the movie. What do you think now that we've

2112
01:50:58,930 --> 01:51:00,889
Speaker 3: talked through the whole thing? And he, is that like

2113
01:51:01,229 --> 01:51:05,100
Speaker 3: nature cannot be contained thing really in there? I don't know.

2114
01:51:05,800 --> 01:51:08,680
Speaker 3: It seems like it's more about like Peter Weller's character,

2115
01:51:08,740 --> 01:51:10,820
Speaker 3: like what's going on in his brain. What does this

2116
01:51:10,880 --> 01:51:11,460
Speaker 3: mean to him?

2117
01:51:12,180 --> 01:51:15,460
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so. I think it is more psychological.

2118
01:51:15,660 --> 01:51:18,900
Speaker 2: And if we're looking for the positive spin at the end,

2119
01:51:18,939 --> 01:51:22,920
Speaker 2: I think, again, maybe the most I can really latch

2120
01:51:23,000 --> 01:51:25,820
Speaker 2: on to is that he's deciding to invest more in

2121
01:51:25,860 --> 01:51:30,020
Speaker 2: what's important. I think it might have resonated a little

2122
01:51:30,040 --> 01:51:31,939
Speaker 2: stronger had he not killed the rat. Like, what if

2123
01:51:31,979 --> 01:51:34,380
Speaker 2: at the end he was like, I'm done fighting the rat.

2124
01:51:34,800 --> 01:51:37,240
Speaker 2: I'm just going to reunite with my family. Like, maybe

2125
01:51:37,280 --> 01:51:40,690
Speaker 2: that would have pushed that interpretation a little more firmly.

2126
01:51:41,390 --> 01:51:42,889
Speaker 2: But we get the defeat of the rat as well,

2127
01:51:42,930 --> 01:51:46,010
Speaker 2: which on another level is satisfying. So I don't know.

2128
01:51:46,330 --> 01:51:48,750
Speaker 2: It's kind of a head scratcher. I'm still scratching my

2129
01:51:48,790 --> 01:51:51,260
Speaker 2: head over it. But on the whole, I think it

2130
01:51:51,310 --> 01:51:54,620
Speaker 2: is a terrific film that really does a great job

2131
01:51:55,040 --> 01:51:59,960
Speaker 2: of intelligently pondering this man versus rat scenario, this sort

2132
01:52:00,000 --> 01:52:03,900
Speaker 2: of Moby Dick situation, these themes of control and the

2133
01:52:03,960 --> 01:52:08,310
Speaker 2: illusion of control, midlife anxiety in the modern world. I

2134
01:52:08,370 --> 01:52:12,860
Speaker 2: think it all resonates really strongly. And certainly holds up today.

2135
01:52:13,580 --> 01:52:15,160
Speaker 3: We never learn if he gets the promotion.

2136
01:52:16,060 --> 01:52:20,160
Speaker 2: Well, I guess maybe that's not as important. Yeah. I mean, granted,

2137
01:52:20,200 --> 01:52:23,610
Speaker 2: he decided rat fighting was more important than that. But

2138
01:52:23,689 --> 01:52:26,590
Speaker 2: hopefully he has decided family is more important than that.

2139
01:52:26,670 --> 01:52:30,010
Speaker 3: My wife and child are the really important thing. Yeah. Yes.

2140
01:52:30,689 --> 01:52:32,370
Speaker 2: Now that the rat's out of the way. Yeah.

2141
01:52:33,330 --> 01:52:35,719
Speaker 3: Okay. Does that do it for this one?

2142
01:52:36,340 --> 01:52:38,519
Speaker 2: I think so, yeah. I'd say pretty much the best

2143
01:52:38,580 --> 01:52:40,650
Speaker 2: rap movie I've ever seen. So I'd love to hear

2144
01:52:40,689 --> 01:52:43,710
Speaker 2: from anyone out there. I'd be very curious if anyone

2145
01:52:43,750 --> 01:52:45,769
Speaker 2: saw this one in the wild, in the theaters, or

2146
01:52:46,189 --> 01:52:49,550
Speaker 2: you encountered it in the video stores and so forth. Yeah,

2147
01:52:49,570 --> 01:52:53,140
Speaker 2: write in. We'd love to hear your thoughts of Unknown Origin.

2148
01:52:54,060 --> 01:52:56,280
Speaker 2: Just a reminder to everyone out there, the Stuff to

2149
01:52:56,320 --> 01:52:58,480
Speaker 2: Blow Your Mind is primarily a science and culture podcast

2150
01:52:58,500 --> 01:53:01,560
Speaker 2: with core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays, short form on Wednesdays,

2151
01:53:01,820 --> 01:53:04,099
Speaker 2: and then on Fridays we set aside most serious concerns.

2152
01:53:04,439 --> 01:53:06,639
Speaker 2: to just talk about a weird film on Weird House Cinema.

2153
01:53:07,160 --> 01:53:09,580
Speaker 2: If you are on Letterboxd.com, look us up there. We

2154
01:53:09,620 --> 01:53:11,700
Speaker 2: are Weird House on there. We have a nice list

2155
01:53:11,740 --> 01:53:13,580
Speaker 2: of all the films we've covered over the years and

2156
01:53:13,660 --> 01:53:15,760
Speaker 2: sometimes a peek ahead at what is coming up next.

2157
01:53:16,320 --> 01:53:19,179
Speaker 2: And speaking of what's coming up next, the current plan

2158
01:53:19,380 --> 01:53:21,760
Speaker 2: is we're going to take an extra buffer week of

2159
01:53:21,820 --> 01:53:25,040
Speaker 2: reruns so we can work ahead on October content. So

2160
01:53:25,620 --> 01:53:27,940
Speaker 2: if you see a week of reruns coming up and

2161
01:53:28,060 --> 01:53:30,980
Speaker 2: a little more Weird House Rewind in the mix, just

2162
01:53:31,060 --> 01:53:33,639
Speaker 2: know that that's a That's a down payment on more

2163
01:53:33,720 --> 01:53:35,620
Speaker 2: new content to come out in October.

2164
01:53:36,080 --> 01:53:39,639
Speaker 3: Huge thanks, as always, to our excellent audio producer, JJ Posway.

2165
01:53:39,939 --> 01:53:41,420
Speaker 3: If you would like to get in touch with us

2166
01:53:41,479 --> 01:53:44,560
Speaker 3: with feedback on this episode or any other to suggest

2167
01:53:44,600 --> 01:53:46,720
Speaker 3: a topic for the future or just to say hello,

2168
01:53:47,080 --> 01:53:50,620
Speaker 3: you can email us at contact at stufftoblowyourmind.com.

2169
01:53:58,100 --> 01:54:00,460
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is a production of iHeartRadio.

2170
01:54:00,920 --> 01:54:04,250
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app. Apple

2171
01:54:04,290 --> 01:54:06,640
Speaker 1: Podcasts are wherever you listen to your favorite shows.