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Speaker 1: Everybody is Bill Courtney with an army and normal folks.

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Speaker 1: And we continue now with part two of our conversation

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Speaker 1: with Mark Coward. Right after these brief messages from our

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Speaker 1: general sponsors.

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Speaker 2: I talk to a lot of police officers and I

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Speaker 2: do so again with a lot of respect, and there

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Speaker 2: are many who tell me that that's what they wish

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Speaker 2: they could do, but that there's a lot of pressure,

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Speaker 2: deep hard career pressure in the other direction, which is

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Speaker 2: not to root them out, just to look the other

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Speaker 2: way at misconduct and abuse.

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Speaker 1: By guys, and police departments are often hated.

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Speaker 3: That's right, and look how they're treated.

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Speaker 2: They're called rats when they're what they're trying to do

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Speaker 2: is actually find the truth and ferret out misconduct, but

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Speaker 2: they are viewed as the enemy. And I think the

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Speaker 2: work they're doing is really important, because again I want ethical,

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Speaker 2: honest policing. I think we all do, but I don't

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Speaker 2: think it takes place regularly. And I think that when

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Speaker 2: you look at it through the lens that I have

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Speaker 2: been exposed to, which is wrongful convictions. First with Marty's case,

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Speaker 2: through and through police misconduct like disgusting, absolutely indefensible police

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Speaker 2: work in his case but then you start looking at

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Speaker 2: other cases, as I do all the time.

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Speaker 1: But before you go to other cases, who want to

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Speaker 1: go to it can't go without saying, it's not just scollops,

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Speaker 1: it's prosecuting job. When it gets to the process, it

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Speaker 1: is the entire a sparatus that is stained by.

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Speaker 3: The Absolutely, it's the entire apparatus.

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Speaker 2: So it often starts with cops who you know, Again,

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Speaker 2: it might be intentional, it might not. I mean, they're

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Speaker 2: trying to close cases. There's a lot of pressure by

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Speaker 2: the way to close cases. Typically the pressure comes from

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Speaker 2: the pre oscutor's office because they're up for reelection, right,

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Speaker 2: so remember that we're the only country in the world

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Speaker 2: that has elected prosecutors and elected judges in most states,

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Speaker 2: that's huge political pressure to close cases. And as it

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Speaker 2: turns out, and a lot of research is shown, not

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Speaker 2: to appear to be soft on crime.

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Speaker 1: The kiss aim to look tough on crime.

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Speaker 2: That's right, because the kiss of death, if you're a

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Speaker 2: prosecutor or a judge, the kiss of death is to

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Speaker 2: look like you're soft on crime.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you're going to get well, you're going to go

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Speaker 1: extra hard.

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Speaker 2: And there's all this research showing when an election's coming up,

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Speaker 2: they go for longer sentences judges when they're up for

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Speaker 2: re election. Give you know, there's some studies you're like

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Speaker 2: twenty eight thousand more years given to sentences.

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Speaker 1: Are you kidding?

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Speaker 3: In a like an eight year period.

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Speaker 1: Is directly correlated to the time of the elect campaign. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So, like, if you're a defendant, if you could magically

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Speaker 2: pick your judge, which you can't, you would literally want

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Speaker 2: to see, like when is the next election. I know,

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Speaker 2: if this guy's up in six months for election, you

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Speaker 2: do not want that. But if someone just got elected comfortably, okay,

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Speaker 2: maybe they're going to give you a fair chance.

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Speaker 3: That's crazy.

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Speaker 1: Holy smokes. Okay, So Marty, not only did you not shrink,

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Speaker 1: it exploded you. It exploded me and you from Marty

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Speaker 1: started your first real project. Yeah, and that.

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Speaker 2: Was well, the Georgetown Prisons and Justice Initiative, But I

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Speaker 2: really started several things at the same time. And so

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Speaker 2: it's kind of hard to sequence it exactly chronologically because

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Speaker 2: there's another branch that maybe we can hold off on.

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Speaker 2: But let me just mention, which it involves when I

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Speaker 2: started volunteering in prisons, teaching classes in prisons, and that

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Speaker 2: was in about twenty fourteen. Marty's exonerating in two thousand

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Speaker 2: and seven, so it was kind of all Marty, all

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Speaker 2: wrongful convictions. And then I started to realize, I want

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Speaker 2: to understand prisons. I want to understand what goes on

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Speaker 2: inside of these spaces that are closed off to society,

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Speaker 2: where people get sentenced, where our country has over two

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Speaker 2: million people locked in cages, and I don't even know

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Speaker 2: what that's going on there. Most people don't. Sure you

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Speaker 2: can see oz or the wire or get some fictional

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Speaker 2: sense of it, but I wanted to go in. That

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Speaker 2: led me down a path that has also completely changed

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Speaker 2: my life and led to a lot of the work

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Speaker 2: that I do with the Georgetown Prisons a Justice Initiative,

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Speaker 2: teaching in prisons, running educational programs in prisons, having a

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Speaker 2: bachelor's degree program in prison, doing a lot of work

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Speaker 2: when people get out of prison so we can get

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Speaker 2: into that, but also the Frederick Douglas Project for Justice,

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Speaker 2: which is about bringing people inside of prisons and jails.

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Speaker 3: All around the country.

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Speaker 2: We're a national organization and that has come through that

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Speaker 2: twenty fourteen turning point where I started going inside regularly,

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Speaker 2: and now I'm at a point where I'm in prisons,

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Speaker 2: in jails two or three times a week all over

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Speaker 2: the place. I have something like fourteen hundred days spent

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Speaker 2: in prison, but no nights, which is a key.

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Speaker 1: You may have a latent desire to be arrested as

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Speaker 1: much time as you spend in prison. I'm just kidding.

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Speaker 3: Well, I hope the judge will count my time served.

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Speaker 1: Roughly. So all right, at first, it was the Marty

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Speaker 1: story invigorated you, and you worked with other wrongfully convicted people,

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Speaker 1: So just tell me about that a little bit. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but at first that was it.

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Speaker 3: That was it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So tell me we can see like this expanding circles.

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Speaker 2: First it was Marty, then it was other wrongfully convicted people,

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Speaker 2: and now it's become really all incarcerated people, but still

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Speaker 2: a lot of attention.

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Speaker 3: Placed on wrongfully convicted. So let's go there.

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Speaker 2: So one is, I just started reading about meeting people,

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Speaker 2: talking to other exgneries, talking to other people working on

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Speaker 2: wrongful convictions, lawyers, and that was a part of what

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Speaker 2: I was doing when I went to law school and

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Speaker 2: then became an attorney myself.

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Speaker 3: But then through that, Marty and I.

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Speaker 2: Started something together, and there's a really interesting backstory to that,

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Speaker 2: which is that I teach a class at Georgetown. It's

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Speaker 2: now a huge lecture class and has a big waiting

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Speaker 2: list and all that.

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Speaker 3: It's called Prisons and Punishment.

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Speaker 2: And initially when it was a smaller class, I would

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Speaker 2: always have well I still actually have Marty to give

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Speaker 2: a guest lecture, and that was often a highlight for

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Speaker 2: my students. And he was a great speaker. You know,

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Speaker 2: he had this incredible personal story. I mean it was like,

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Speaker 2: you know, all the right there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so and it's you know, my own story too. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. So that was a highlight.

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Speaker 2: But then we started to talk and think, what if

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Speaker 2: we did more than that, more than just a one

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Speaker 2: off lecture within my lecture class. What if we taught

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Speaker 2: a class together, and we put together the initial ideas

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Speaker 2: for a class that's now become another huge institution at

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Speaker 2: Georgetown called Making an Xannai, so Making x Houneries now

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Speaker 2: and it's ninth year. It's a spring semester class with

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Speaker 2: fifteen students, highly selective. We get about one hundred applications.

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Speaker 2: They have to submit video implications, by the way, so

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Speaker 2: it's really intensive in terms of what materials they have

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Speaker 2: to propose as a way for us to select them

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Speaker 2: for the class. So the fifteen students who get in,

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Speaker 2: they feel like they just want the lottery because it's

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Speaker 2: so hard to get into and in that class. What

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Speaker 2: we do is we have our students work on other real,

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Speaker 2: live wrongful conviction cases, so they work in teams of three.

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Speaker 2: We picked five cases every spring semester in how do

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Speaker 2: you know the wrongfully convicted? In the social Initially the

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Speaker 2: first year it was through word of mouth. We knew

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Speaker 2: people who were lawyers or who heard about the case.

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Speaker 2: One guy Marty knew from or had a connection to

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Speaker 2: when he was in prison.

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Speaker 1: No, no, no, not. How do you know about the cases? Well,

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Speaker 1: then we do our resul do you know they are?

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Speaker 1: We do our relationship wrong.

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Speaker 3: We don't always know for sure, and that's what our.

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Speaker 1: Students actually let's vet.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, we do what you might call pre vetting beforehand.

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Speaker 2: In other words, when we hand them over to our students,

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Speaker 2: we have a good sense that the person was wrongfully convicted.

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Speaker 2: But then sometimes we've had to drop cases. We've had

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Speaker 2: to say, you know, we found out some stuff that's

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Speaker 2: more complicated.

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Speaker 3: We don't like this.

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Speaker 2: We're not comfortable, and so we always have alternates, and

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Speaker 2: sometimes we use those alternates. So, but the model is

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Speaker 2: fifteen students, five cases, working in teams of three, and

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Speaker 2: they have to reinvestigate the cases, which means they travel,

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Speaker 2: they go to the crime scene. They are investigating some

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Speaker 2: of them. They're like on a fire escape measuring the

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Speaker 2: trajectory with a string and where they said that our

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Speaker 2: guy was shooting.

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Speaker 3: Supposedly, which was total bullshit, and then the.

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Speaker 2: Autopsy report that shows the bullet going and an upward

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Speaker 2: trajectory clearly having even shot like basically you know, parallel

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Speaker 2: or from a little below. They are going interviewing witnesses,

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Speaker 2: they're interviewing the original prosecutor, defense attorney, judge.

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Speaker 1: Actually doing the police work they should have been done

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Speaker 1: in the first place.

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Speaker 2: Every single case. Within two weeks they're like there was

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Speaker 2: no investigation. So we found I think the critical missing link,

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Speaker 2: which is that while the Innocent Project and other organizations

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Speaker 2: they typically do DNA testing in cases that have sort

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Speaker 2: of legal room for appeals with the new evidence from DNA,

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Speaker 2: we take cases that are at legal dead ends but

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Speaker 2: that have never been investigated, and then what we provide

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Speaker 2: is a full investigation that unearths all kinds of new

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Speaker 2: evidence and from that program, now, over this last what

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Speaker 2: we've done at eight times so far and are starting

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Speaker 2: our ninth semester, thirteen people are now free. Thirteen people

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Speaker 2: who had served over three hundred years in prison are

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Speaker 2: now free. And the program is not just a Georgetown now,

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Speaker 2: but we've franchised it, We've spread it. It's now at

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Speaker 2: five universities. It's been at Princeton now this is its

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Speaker 2: fourth year, New York University, University of California, Santa Cruz

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Speaker 2: its second year at both of those places, and now

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Speaker 2: it's starting at Rice University in Texas. So we're from

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Speaker 2: east to west, north to south, and we're working with

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Speaker 2: this model of having students reinvestigate cases, creating doc umentaries.

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Speaker 2: That's what their task is. It's not writing a paper

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Speaker 2: or emotion. It's actually creating a documentary which we launch

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Speaker 2: and share with the public, and through that we create pressure, attention,

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Speaker 2: and play a role in helping people get free.

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Speaker 1: It's a lot. I'm conflicted.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, sure, let's go there.

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Speaker 1: I have personal friends who have been victims of very

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Speaker 1: violent chrome. I know this may sound weird, and it's

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Speaker 1: a one off, but I will tell you that rape,

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Speaker 1: to me, it's so much more than physical and you know,

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Speaker 1: stuff against children. I mean, I can get in a

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Speaker 1: really dark place in the way I think about what

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Speaker 1: I'd like to do to somebody who's sort of child

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Speaker 1: or innocent, or picked on, somebody who simply didn't have

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Speaker 1: the ability to defend themselves. It makes me sick. Then

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Speaker 1: the frustration with you know, well, you have insurance. Having

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Speaker 1: your car stolen, it's not that big a deal. If

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Speaker 1: you've ever had your car stolen, even if you had

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Speaker 1: an insurance, you will understand the undue pressure it puts

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Speaker 1: on you, especially if you're among the working poor and

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Speaker 1: you can no longer get to work and you have

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Speaker 1: to get a new license plate. There's no such thing

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Speaker 1: as victimless crime, and oftentimes the victims of crime or

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Speaker 1: the family of the perpetrators. And I have studied and

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Speaker 1: kind of gotten into all that. So my conflict comes

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Speaker 1: from on the one hand, there's crime, and people that

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Speaker 1: perpetuate that crime deserve to pay a penalty a civil

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Speaker 1: society requires. I think I also fully understand that if

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Speaker 1: you don't read on grade level by that time you're

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Speaker 1: in third grade, you're sixty percent more likely to either

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Speaker 1: be in poverty or have incarceration in your life, and

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Speaker 1: then that compounds itself generationally. So there's a societal issue

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Speaker 1: to all of it. One of my very, very dear friends,

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Speaker 1: who is the president of the Chamber of Commerce here

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Speaker 1: in Memphis. Four years ago, now, I was walking down

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Speaker 1: the street. Three guys got out of the truck right

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Speaker 1: on the curve, point blank, right in the back of

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Speaker 1: the head. That one was juvenile, one was I would

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Speaker 1: say mentally he was challenged, and one was the ringleader.

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Speaker 1: One was a female. And they left my friend there

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Speaker 1: and he died and his family's devastated still to this day.

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Speaker 1: On the other hand, the system that's supposed to hold

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Speaker 1: those people accountable and needs to for our society, that

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Speaker 1: also you have had to work to free. I think

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Speaker 1: you said thirteen people in three hundred hours of three

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Speaker 1: hundred years. Excuse me of jail Tom who never did

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Speaker 1: anything to be put in jail. That is a borring.

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Speaker 1: So all of what I just said to tee up

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Speaker 1: this before we as listeners, before we as society, and

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Speaker 1: before I personally sit before you and kind of make

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Speaker 1: my continue to evolve. My construct around justice in America.

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Speaker 1: What do we have to understand that's actually happening? What?

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Speaker 1: What does the average person get wrong about all this incarceration?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, these are really tough issues. Let me just

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Speaker 2: start by saying I share your horror at the crime,

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Speaker 2: certainly against.

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Speaker 1: And by the way Marty's parents were killed. Absolutely, he

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Speaker 1: was a victim of it too. So how does he

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Speaker 1: reconcile justice in America with having been unfairly locked up

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Speaker 1: that he needed justice for his family? I mean, and

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Speaker 1: I think that struggle is universal forever, Any any clear

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Speaker 1: thinking citizen in this country has to have a struggle

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Speaker 1: with this. And so to get to that, what do

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Speaker 1: we have wrong? What? What? What is the misconst what?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we us about a lot wrong. But there's a

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Speaker 3: lot to unpack here.

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Speaker 2: And so so I just want to say from the

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Speaker 2: outset that I agree with your characterization and that everything

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Speaker 2: I do has a goal of preventing crime, minimizing crime,

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Speaker 2: preventing and minimizing suffering and particularly of defenseless people. I

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Speaker 2: also agree, and we'll get into some of this more,

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Speaker 2: I'm sure, but I have a very hard time with

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Speaker 2: sex crimes and crimes against children.

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Speaker 1: For the very same reasons.

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Speaker 2: It's a lot easier for me to take someone who

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Speaker 2: you know, pull the trigger in a moment of panic

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Speaker 2: or inebriation or all signs of kinds of situations than

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Speaker 2: somebody who physically hurt another human being over a long

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Speaker 2: sustained way. There's something about a gun that is somehow

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Speaker 2: easier to understand than the harm against a defenseless person.

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Speaker 3: But it's all horrible and life sufferings. Oh yeah to

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Speaker 3: the survivor.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, oh, I get that, And I've been through that

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Speaker 2: with someone close to me, and I share all those

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Speaker 2: feelings of.

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Speaker 3: A desire for suffering from a person who did it.

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Speaker 3: But there's an important butt and I want to make

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Speaker 3: sure that we get to that.

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Speaker 2: A lot of what I struggle with is that impulse

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Speaker 2: on the one hand, which is real and I think

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Speaker 2: that just about everyone can share or would share if

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Speaker 2: they were in that situation unfortunately, but with another one

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Speaker 2: that looks at what are we doing to a hold

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Speaker 2: the person accountable and prevent that from happening more in

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Speaker 2: the future. And I don't think we're getting much right

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Speaker 2: on that front. But before I get into that, I

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Speaker 2: just want to especially highlight the wrongful conviction part because

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Speaker 2: when you have a horrific crime and you have victims,

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Speaker 2: whether it's a crime where the victor survives but is

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Speaker 2: deeply traumatized, such as rape, which is the worst situation

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Speaker 2: where someone's surviving and has that lasting trauma.

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Speaker 3: Or if it's a crime of murder where you have

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Speaker 3: a loss of life that's fully permanent.

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Speaker 2: That is so horrific. But is that victim made better?

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Speaker 2: Is there any justice? Is there accountability when the wrong

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Speaker 2: person gets sent to prison for it?

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Speaker 1: Oh?

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Speaker 3: I think it's the victimized exactly.

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Speaker 1: They are because one a free person is locked up

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Speaker 1: as a result of what happened to them, and two

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Speaker 1: the person that actually did it it's still out there.

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Speaker 3: That's right, exactly.

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Speaker 2: And so what the problem is is that most experts

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Speaker 2: say that about five percent of convictions are of the

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Speaker 2: wrong person. That what some people say it's as high

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Speaker 2: as ten percent. Let's do some quick math. There's two

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Speaker 2: million people in prisons today. Five percent is one hundred

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Speaker 2: thousand people. Ten percent is two hundred thousand people. But

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Speaker 2: let's just go with five percent. Be CONSERVETI one hundred

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Speaker 2: thousand people in prison for something they didn't do. That's horrifying.

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Speaker 1: We'll be right back. What's the entire prison population in

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Speaker 1: the UK.

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Speaker 3: It's about roughly eighty thousand.

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Speaker 1: So we have more wrongfully convicted people in a prison

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Speaker 1: in the United States than the UK has a total

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Speaker 1: in their entire prison. Just consider that. Yeah, that's right,

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Speaker 1: that's that's equally horrifying. And the trauma that happened. You

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Speaker 1: talk about victims, then they go to prison and they

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Speaker 1: become traumatime.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right.

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Speaker 2: And then let's drill into what makes for a wrongful conviction. Sure,

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Speaker 2: sometimes it's a mistaken identification. You know, somebody was hurt,

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Speaker 2: let's say it's the crime of rape, looks at a lineup,

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Speaker 2: says it was that guy. It turns out it with

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Speaker 2: someone else who wasn't in the lineup or whatever. You

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Speaker 2: could call that, just a honest human mistake. Those are

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Speaker 2: actually rare. The vast majority, overwhelming majority, ninety percent of

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Speaker 2: wrongful convictions have misconduct by somebody, police or prospers in

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Speaker 2: the system, in the system, and that's because they need

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Speaker 2: to close a case, and so they have a case,

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Speaker 2: they have a horrible crime. It's in the news. You've

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Speaker 2: got victims, there's noise. We need to make this go away.

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Speaker 2: And so what they typically do is they find somebody

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Speaker 2: who maybe could be could have done it in theory,

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Speaker 2: has a criminal record, was up to no good, doesn't

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Speaker 2: have an alibi, doesn't have really much of a defense, meaning.

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Speaker 3: Resources to pay, its the profile.

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Speaker 2: There's huge disparities in wrongful convictions and boom, we focus

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Speaker 2: on this person. Any disconfirming evidence we shove out of

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Speaker 2: the way. Anything else we incentivize. We get somebody else

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Speaker 2: in jail and we say, hey, we'll take five years

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Speaker 2: off your sentence if you can say the person confessed

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Speaker 2: to you. There's all kinds of both ways in which

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Speaker 2: cases get made. And they might believe in their minds

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Speaker 2: that they're doing the right thing. They say, hey, we're

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Speaker 2: taking someone off the treat he's doing bad, he's dealing drugs, whatever,

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Speaker 2: let's get him out of here. Anyway, it doesn't really matter.

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Speaker 2: But what they're really doing is sacrificing the truth. And

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Speaker 2: what they're offering doing is what you alluded to, which

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Speaker 2: is leaving the real perpetrator out there. And there have

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Speaker 2: been multiple exonerations that have taken place, and these were

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Speaker 2: through DNA when they did not want the truth to

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Speaker 2: come out. And it turns out was the wrong person,

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Speaker 2: and guess what, the real person raped and or killed

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Speaker 2: other people.

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Speaker 3: To me, that's on the stage. Stop.

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Speaker 2: But the blood is on their hands, right, the state

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Speaker 2: is contributing to the very evil that we are all

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Speaker 2: against and that the system is supposedly trying to eliminate.

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Speaker 2: Think about that. But there are no consequences. Their police

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Speaker 2: have what's called qualified immunity. It's very hard to sue

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Speaker 2: police officers. They have very strong unions and they rally

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Speaker 2: together to prevent it.

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Speaker 3: It's very very hard.

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Speaker 2: Prosecutors, you can't even try it. They have what's called

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Speaker 2: absolute immunity. A prosecutor can lie, cheat, steal, cover up evidence,

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Speaker 2: falsify testimony put onnowingly false and they will face no consequences,

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Speaker 2: no civil consequence, they won't have to pay, no criminal consequences,

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Speaker 2: they won't spend.

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Speaker 3: A day in jail.

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Speaker 1: Isn't it interesting? It's nuts that the absolute immunity for

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Speaker 1: lawyers comes from the lawyers who are often connected with

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Speaker 1: or end up in Congress or state senates where they

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Speaker 1: have made laws to protect themselves from their own Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean self protection.

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Speaker 2: But it's something that is defended by frankly, both Democrat

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Speaker 2: and Republican administrations. There's this institution that is placed on

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Speaker 2: the prosecution, this value that they need to be protected from,

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Speaker 2: you know, some potential avalanche of frivolous lawsuits, and that

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Speaker 2: it's better off for them.

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Speaker 1: To have full immunity.

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Speaker 2: By the way, I hope you's become clear build that,

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Speaker 2: but I want to make it explicit that everything I

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Speaker 2: do is totally nonpartisan. I don't give what party you're in.

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Speaker 2: I'm an independent. I think like an independent. I think

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Speaker 2: for myself and I'll work with anybody from the right

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Speaker 2: or the left who wants to help get people out

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Speaker 2: of prison and don't belong there. So that's my only view.

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Speaker 1: I'm pretty invented too. I think both parties saw I

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Speaker 1: could only say that because Alex Left he hates when

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Speaker 1: I go political. So with regard to understanding what's going on,

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Speaker 1: what's wrong with incarceration in our country, I think you

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Speaker 1: laid that out well. You have a metric ton of

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Speaker 1: statistics and I'm sitting here staring at some of them.

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Speaker 1: One of them I think that I'd like you to

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Speaker 1: talk a little bit about, is that we have this

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Speaker 1: inaccurate notion that since the seventies or eighties, crime has

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Speaker 1: actually been on the increase in the US, and it's

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Speaker 1: actually decreasing.

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Speaker 3: Talk about it.

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Speaker 1: It's been decreasing consistently for decades. Meanwhile, our prison population

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Speaker 1: has quintupled. That's right, So let's go through that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's really important people understand that. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Now, a lot of this has to do with

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Speaker 2: the lies of politicians to play up fear of crime

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Speaker 2: as a way to get people to vote for them.

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Speaker 3: By saying they're going to do this says.

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Speaker 1: Well, into what you're doing, now why you're doing it.

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Speaker 1: So talk about one of the things I read, and

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Speaker 1: I'll just see this up and you can go on

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Speaker 1: it is property crime or violent crime wasn't increasing, but

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Speaker 1: incarceration was. There were decisions that were made politically in

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Speaker 1: order to deal with the perception of fear arise in crime,

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Speaker 1: and that's very different from reality. I have a pushback

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Speaker 1: on that that I don't really believe, but I think

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Speaker 1: some of our listeners may say when they hear that, is,

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Speaker 1: could it not be argued that crime wasn't increasing because

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Speaker 1: incarceration was.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's not the case. But I understand that and

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Speaker 2: I've heard but that's a perception, sure, so talk to it. Yeah, So,

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Speaker 2: all types of crime have been decreasing from a high

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Speaker 2: that was basically in the nineteen seventies and eighties, where

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Speaker 2: there really.

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Speaker 3: Was a lot of crime, where New York had two

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Speaker 3: thousand murders a year. I mean think about that.

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Speaker 2: That's you know before a day, right, it's even more

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Speaker 2: than that. So and they were unsolved and it was

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Speaker 2: out of control, and that led to both a lot

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Speaker 2: of tough on crime policies that involve policing, but also

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Speaker 2: in terms of incarceration, and you saw the numbers of

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Speaker 2: people in prison go from historically roughly like about one

436
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Speaker 2: hundred and fifty two hundred thousand suddenly with the spike

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Speaker 2: in late seventies, especially during the eighties, accelerated in the

438
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:13,000
Speaker 2: nineties under President Bill Clinton, so Republican Democrat president didn't

439
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:16,679
Speaker 2: really matter, and passed the two million mark in the

440
00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:17,680
Speaker 2: two thousands.

441
00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:19,840
Speaker 1: And that's when three stricture out came around all of it.

442
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:25,240
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, now in terms of so and meanwhile crime

443
00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:26,760
Speaker 3: was going down.

444
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:30,560
Speaker 1: So it would be argued, look, we're locking up all

445
00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:32,000
Speaker 1: these bad people crime, shopping.

446
00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:34,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, so this is where it's important to have

447
00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:37,280
Speaker 2: a little bit of a political science background. Fortunately I

448
00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:39,680
Speaker 2: do have and still have, which is that correlation does

449
00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:42,720
Speaker 2: not mean causation. In order to be able to analyze

450
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:45,560
Speaker 2: cause and effect, you need to be able to control

451
00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:48,480
Speaker 2: for other factors. And you can't just look at two

452
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:50,479
Speaker 2: things that are correlated. Otherwise you could say, you know,

453
00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:53,479
Speaker 2: people eat a lot of ice cream in the summer,

454
00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:55,680
Speaker 2: and they're more shark attacks in the summer, so eating

455
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:57,120
Speaker 2: ice cream with the shark attacks.

456
00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:02,760
Speaker 1: Right, So that's just my favorite example. You remind me

457
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:06,680
Speaker 1: of my old economics and political professors when you say

458
00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:08,840
Speaker 1: stuff like that, because stuff like that if i'd just

459
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:11,960
Speaker 1: so interesting. But it's true, you eat more ice cream

460
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:14,760
Speaker 1: in the summer, there's more shark attacks and scrammer. Therefore

461
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:19,879
Speaker 1: the increase in consumption of ice cream causes sharks to buy.

462
00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:21,240
Speaker 3: But yeah, that's right.

463
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:25,359
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, honestly, if you if you stick with

464
00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:29,800
Speaker 1: a strict associative policy of agles be and equal c

465
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:35,520
Speaker 1: than aqles see, you can draw those inaccurate conclusions, right right, yeah,

466
00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:36,280
Speaker 1: so just prove it.

467
00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:39,280
Speaker 2: So you need to look at each of those things separately.

468
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:43,520
Speaker 2: So in terms of the decline in crime, it has

469
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:48,920
Speaker 2: to do with a lot of factors, involving economics, involving opportunity,

470
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:57,119
Speaker 2: involving activities for people, involving addiction, involving guns, and you know,

471
00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:01,399
Speaker 2: there's so many factors that go into crime. Now it

472
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:05,120
Speaker 2: is possible that when somebody goes to prison, then they're

473
00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 2: not on the streets and they're not communing other crimes,

474
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:10,160
Speaker 2: of course, unless it was a wrongful conviction, which five

475
00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 2: or more percent are, But the research on crime says

476
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:20,560
Speaker 2: that it's a very small percentage that involves what's called incapacitation,

477
00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:22,480
Speaker 2: which is basically people being in prison so they can't

478
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:25,960
Speaker 2: commit other crimes. And the vast majority of the decline

479
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:29,280
Speaker 2: has to do with other factors that are separate from

480
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 2: the prison population. In terms of the prison population itself,

481
00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:37,120
Speaker 2: that rise has to do with policies that were made

482
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:39,880
Speaker 2: in terms of sentencing, so three strikes law, as you mentioned,

483
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:44,520
Speaker 2: length of sentencing, the War on drugs, which would send

484
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:48,000
Speaker 2: people to prison for decades for crimes that weren't violent,

485
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:51,280
Speaker 2: for having a buyer weed. Yeah, and then you have,

486
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:55,240
Speaker 2: of course, the interests that went into building prisons in

487
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:57,760
Speaker 2: the nineteen nineties, when again Bill Clinton was president, you

488
00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:00,800
Speaker 2: had a prison opening every ten days in America.

489
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:02,439
Speaker 3: They're building them in rural areas.

490
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:05,920
Speaker 2: Land was cheap, you know, get a license for building,

491
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 2: and you know a lot of corruption going on of

492
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:11,800
Speaker 2: course with these contracts and whatnot, and a lot of

493
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:14,040
Speaker 2: vested interest that wanted to fill these beds. You know,

494
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:17,760
Speaker 2: they talk about occupancy rates in prisons like their hotels,

495
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:20,080
Speaker 2: so you know they want to fill.

496
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:22,680
Speaker 1: Them well, especially if they're probably run.

497
00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:24,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, which is only seven percent. I think there's some

498
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:25,840
Speaker 2: misunderstandings about what.

499
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:29,680
Speaker 1: That point is. To pay for a prison, Yeah.

500
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:33,320
Speaker 2: There's somebody paying for it, and you know. Yeah, So

501
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:42,000
Speaker 2: there has been a really striking decline in crime, and

502
00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:44,880
Speaker 2: from the nineteen nineties the murder rate was going down

503
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:48,840
Speaker 2: every single year up until COVID, which is you never

504
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:50,960
Speaker 2: have any trend that's that strong where it's literally it's

505
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:52,120
Speaker 2: not even a blip here and there.

506
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:53,720
Speaker 3: Other years it was going on every year.

507
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:56,000
Speaker 2: And then it went up a bit, and then it's

508
00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 2: been going back down ever since. But if you listen

509
00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:04,040
Speaker 2: to politicians and again public and democratic alike, they will

510
00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:07,400
Speaker 2: constantly refer to a rise in crime, spike in crime,

511
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:12,080
Speaker 2: fear of crime, giving the impression that it's this upward trend,

512
00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:15,080
Speaker 2: when in reality it's been a consistent downward trend. And

513
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 2: that has to do sadly with politics, where politicians' priorities

514
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:23,440
Speaker 2: is not the truth. It's not a study, it's not

515
00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:28,360
Speaker 2: careful research. It's about getting elected. And this tough on

516
00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:35,520
Speaker 2: crime message and this fear based thinking wins in elections,

517
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 2: to put it very simply, and so you have this

518
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:43,240
Speaker 2: phenomenon where there's this constant reference. And so what they'll

519
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:45,320
Speaker 2: do is they'll be a story. They'll be a carjacking,

520
00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:48,400
Speaker 2: they'll be a murder, they'll be a very highly publicized case,

521
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:51,120
Speaker 2: and they will make it out. It'll be on the news.

522
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:54,280
Speaker 2: You know, could you be next? And it creates this fear.

523
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:57,440
Speaker 2: And by the way, it's real, like I get it.

524
00:29:57,440 --> 00:29:59,960
Speaker 2: It affects me, it affects you, affects all of us, right,

525
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:02,920
Speaker 2: I mean, that's why it works so well. But it's

526
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 2: not born out by facts, it's not born out by evidence.

527
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:07,600
Speaker 2: It's certainly not born out by trends over time.

528
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:12,080
Speaker 1: It's not something I've heard you talk about at all,

529
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 1: not that you haven't. I just got aware of it.

530
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:21,440
Speaker 1: But as I was considering what you're talking about now

531
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:24,280
Speaker 1: as I was preparing to talk to you, something popped

532
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:27,280
Speaker 1: in my head too. Doesn't social media play a role

533
00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:32,080
Speaker 1: in this as well from a standpoint of policy, because

534
00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:36,160
Speaker 1: you know, back when you and I were coming up,

535
00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:39,840
Speaker 1: if it was local, we knew about it, but we

536
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:42,160
Speaker 1: didn't know about what was going on in Denver, we

537
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:45,440
Speaker 1: didn't know about from Memphis, we didn't know what. But

538
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:50,600
Speaker 1: now anytime there's some horrific murder whatever in any corner

539
00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:54,120
Speaker 1: of the world, we know about it within minutes. Does

540
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:59,400
Speaker 1: that not then make the public think crimea is out

541
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:04,840
Speaker 1: of control? When paired with the politicians and accurate narratives,

542
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:07,520
Speaker 1: you do not think that place all rolling that that.

543
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:12,160
Speaker 2: I mean, it definitely had started well before social media,

544
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:14,080
Speaker 2: so I don't think it's a new thing, but I

545
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:17,600
Speaker 2: do think social media amplifies it and certainly makes it

546
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:21,560
Speaker 2: more immediate and has now become the source of information

547
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:24,560
Speaker 2: for most of people and most people overall.

548
00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:28,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, because it leads to one very short.

549
00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:31,640
Speaker 2: Obviously in terms of attention span, and then therefore you

550
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:33,480
Speaker 2: don't get into depth, you don't get nuanced, you don't

551
00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:37,360
Speaker 2: get analysis careful, and then it's also rushed. It's fast,

552
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:42,240
Speaker 2: it's immediate, so it's not necessarily based on reflection or

553
00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 2: letting the sort of facts emerge and so on. That said,

554
00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:48,360
Speaker 2: it can also be really effective. And I you know,

555
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:52,440
Speaker 2: use social media and think that a lot of special media.

556
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:56,480
Speaker 1: I'm just saying it feels like the more you see,

557
00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:58,080
Speaker 1: the more you hear, the more you feel, the more

558
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:00,960
Speaker 1: you believe, even though the data the fact don't bear

559
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:03,040
Speaker 1: out what you're being fed.

560
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:05,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then there's the silos part. I mean, I

561
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:10,600
Speaker 2: do think the algorithms are really damaging because you get

562
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:12,600
Speaker 2: fed what you like, and that might be what your

563
00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:15,080
Speaker 2: friends like. So you're getting just the same thing over

564
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:16,520
Speaker 2: and over and over and you get a sense of, well,

565
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:20,640
Speaker 2: this is everywhere right, So you don't get the wide view,

566
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:24,080
Speaker 2: you don't get the parts you might not agree with.

567
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:25,160
Speaker 3: But you need to know in.

568
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:29,000
Speaker 2: Order to form fully, you know, fledged opinions about issues

569
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:30,920
Speaker 2: you made otherwise not know much about.

570
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:33,920
Speaker 1: Along those that's a problem. Along the lines of what

571
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:37,600
Speaker 1: we also don't understand about incarceration in America, one thing

572
00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:40,640
Speaker 1: that I read really stuck out to me is that

573
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:46,720
Speaker 1: thirty percent of the female population of incarceration and the

574
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 1: entire world is in the United States.

575
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:53,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, twenty five percent of the overall population is

576
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:56,080
Speaker 2: in the of incarcerated populace. So we have five percent

577
00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:59,320
Speaker 2: of the world's population twenty five percent of the world's prisoners,

578
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:04,240
Speaker 2: right among women, which by the way, is only seven percent.

579
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:06,320
Speaker 2: I'm going to throw some numbers out here. Seven percent

580
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:09,800
Speaker 2: of American incarcerated people are women. So it sounds like

581
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:14,040
Speaker 2: it's very little, but it's actually several hundred thousand people,

582
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:17,760
Speaker 2: which in a world perspective is thirty percent of world's

583
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:22,600
Speaker 2: female incarcerated population. In other words, we incarcerate a lot

584
00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 2: of women as well, even if they tend to be

585
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:27,880
Speaker 2: forgotten in the American context, but the global context bears

586
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:28,720
Speaker 2: that out.

587
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:36,040
Speaker 1: So leaning back on before we go on next, is

588
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:39,600
Speaker 1: what you're doing, what you transitioned into. I have to

589
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:44,760
Speaker 1: understand this because I think it all synergizes together. Leaning

590
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:47,560
Speaker 1: back on your three two thousand and one life is

591
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:53,880
Speaker 1: a or simple political science professor who's fluid in about

592
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:58,240
Speaker 1: nineteen thousand languages you're fluent in, like French or German,

593
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:06,000
Speaker 1: which is crazy, but who wrote his thesis on different

594
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:12,359
Speaker 1: approaches to I'm butchering this but different approaches to government. Well,

595
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:19,160
Speaker 1: part of government is criminal justice and crime and prisons

596
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:24,840
Speaker 1: and all of that. I just can't help but think

597
00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:28,720
Speaker 1: with that background, you haven't looked at the American justice

598
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:31,920
Speaker 1: system and started comparing it to those and other developed

599
00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:38,360
Speaker 1: countries to form some ideas and conclusions about what's ailing

600
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:40,840
Speaker 1: us and what other people do well, right or wrong.

601
00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:45,600
Speaker 1: And I think it's interesting how your two worlds allied there.

602
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:48,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I'm glad you bring that up because my

603
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:50,799
Speaker 2: third book and most recent book.

604
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:52,560
Speaker 3: I'm working on a new one with Marty.

605
00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:54,239
Speaker 2: Actually that's going to be a big one with a

606
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:59,719
Speaker 2: major publisher and totally different audience than the academics.

607
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:00,840
Speaker 1: You will get one.

608
00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:04,280
Speaker 2: But I wrote my third book was like a bridge book,

609
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:08,480
Speaker 2: which was still academic, ye, but more for a popular

610
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:12,520
Speaker 2: audience and with a trade branch of Oxford University Press.

611
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:17,000
Speaker 2: And it's called Unusually Cruel and the subtitle is Prisons,

612
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:20,120
Speaker 2: Punishment and the Real American Exceptionalism.

613
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:23,920
Speaker 3: So I compare the US to a set of European countries.

614
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:28,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you know, the way that term has been

615
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:31,399
Speaker 2: used is sort of city on a hill, beacon of democracy.

616
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:35,240
Speaker 2: And what I'm saying is for a country that's built

617
00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:36,440
Speaker 2: on a slogan of land.

618
00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:36,640
Speaker 3: Of the free.

619
00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:38,600
Speaker 2: We sure have a lot of people that are living

620
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:42,600
Speaker 2: in cages in captivity. We have incarceration rates that are

621
00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:48,319
Speaker 2: ten times higher than comparable European countries. So what explains that.

622
00:35:50,719 --> 00:36:00,799
Speaker 1: We'll be right back, I won't take this up for you. Sure, well, yeah,

623
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:02,720
Speaker 1: we incarcerate more because we have more chrime.

624
00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:04,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, so that's actually false.

625
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:06,600
Speaker 2: So if you look at thank you for saying that,

626
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:10,480
Speaker 2: if you look at studies of crime comparatively, we actually

627
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:13,120
Speaker 2: with one exception, which is homicide, which of course has

628
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:14,919
Speaker 2: to do with guns. We have more guns than people

629
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:17,759
Speaker 2: in this country, and a lot of other countries don't have.

630
00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:21,160
Speaker 2: For use of guns, homicide, we have higher rates, but

631
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:23,480
Speaker 2: the vast majority of crime, of course, is not homicide,

632
00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 2: property crime, all kinds of other violent crime, drug crime.

633
00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:33,720
Speaker 2: Our rates are actually slightly lower than average among other countries.

634
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:35,040
Speaker 3: We do not have higher crime.

635
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:38,840
Speaker 2: That is completely categorically false, with the exception of homicide.

636
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:43,239
Speaker 2: Yet our incarceration rates are basically seven to ten times

637
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:46,080
Speaker 2: higher depending on the country, And there's not a single

638
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:48,400
Speaker 2: European country that's even close to the US.

639
00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:50,239
Speaker 3: I mean, I have these charts in my book that

640
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:51,040
Speaker 3: are just show.

641
00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:54,240
Speaker 2: It's like off the rails, off the track, completely different

642
00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:59,160
Speaker 2: from all countries. Well, and it wasn't always the case,

643
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:02,440
Speaker 2: by the way, So there's the fifty years ago. Yeah,

644
00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:04,720
Speaker 2: if you go back to nineteen seventy one, before the

645
00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:07,759
Speaker 2: real rise started, and that's the first year where I

646
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:09,840
Speaker 2: was able to find data in other countries.

647
00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:10,920
Speaker 3: The US is pretty close.

648
00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:13,799
Speaker 2: If you look at the number of incarcerated people per

649
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 2: one hundred thousand, that's the usual metric word, about one

650
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:19,120
Speaker 2: hundred and sixty per one hundred thousand at that time.

651
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:22,840
Speaker 2: European countries there are about like eighty ninety one hundred,

652
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:25,640
Speaker 2: so we're kind of like close. But then they stay

653
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:27,880
Speaker 2: more or less flat, go up a tiny bit, like

654
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:31,000
Speaker 2: five ten percent, it's pretty flat, and we go up

655
00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:34,680
Speaker 2: like this. It's just spike that takes place to the

656
00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:38,160
Speaker 2: point where we reached seven hundred people per one hundred thousand,

657
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:41,000
Speaker 2: so five times higher than it was, you know, in

658
00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:44,839
Speaker 2: the nineteen seventies. What explains that? So this is what

659
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:46,480
Speaker 2: I argue in the book. That has to do with

660
00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:49,920
Speaker 2: four factors that all changed in different ways in the

661
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:53,480
Speaker 2: nineteen seventies. So one is race, the way in which

662
00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:57,640
Speaker 2: in the post Jim Crow era mass incarceration became basically

663
00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:00,719
Speaker 2: a proxy for race when you could no longer have

664
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:05,680
Speaker 2: explicitly racial exclusion in their laws. It's second to do

665
00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:08,400
Speaker 2: with religion, when you had suddenly what was always a

666
00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:12,680
Speaker 2: very strong religious existence identity movement in this country, but

667
00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:16,480
Speaker 2: became very very political starting in the late nineteen seventies,

668
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:23,160
Speaker 2: the religious right, Jerry Folwell and others became very very

669
00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:26,360
Speaker 2: politically active, whereas before they were explicitly a political.

670
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:28,800
Speaker 1: There's a big difference in what Billy Graham was and.

671
00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:34,320
Speaker 2: Absolutely that's right. Third, you've got politics, the elections of judges.

672
00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:38,640
Speaker 2: You have the whole Willy Horton scandal where this sort

673
00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:42,200
Speaker 2: of the election presidential election of nineteen eighty eight, many

674
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:45,000
Speaker 2: argue was decided based on a political advertisement that had

675
00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:47,960
Speaker 2: to do with a message that Ducacus was soft on

676
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:48,680
Speaker 2: crime because he.

677
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:50,840
Speaker 3: Let someone out on a furlough commit another crime.

678
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:54,000
Speaker 1: And so actually remember that. Yeah.

679
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:57,200
Speaker 3: And then fourth is business.

680
00:38:57,200 --> 00:38:58,879
Speaker 2: That you have a lot of vested interests that now

681
00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:02,839
Speaker 2: have real given the game money skin in the game,

682
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:05,080
Speaker 2: and that don't want to change that. And that's not

683
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:07,600
Speaker 2: just the private prison companies, but I'm talking more importantly

684
00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:11,560
Speaker 2: all the vested interests, all the commissary products, and all

685
00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:18,839
Speaker 2: the prison unions that want a need prisons to be full.

686
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:22,279
Speaker 2: And so with that, it makes it very distinct in

687
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:23,400
Speaker 2: the US to other countries.

688
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:24,920
Speaker 3: And I've been to prisons in other countries.

689
00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:28,440
Speaker 2: I've been to prisons in France, Germany, Norway, and I've

690
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:31,680
Speaker 2: also been to prisons in Brazil and Japan, and you know,

691
00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:34,120
Speaker 2: totally different experiences everywhere. It's not I'm not trying to

692
00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:37,560
Speaker 2: say it's it's better everywhere and always worse in the US.

693
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:40,920
Speaker 2: And there's some much better prisons in the US in

694
00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:43,520
Speaker 2: some places than elsewhere, and there's different security levels, and

695
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:44,719
Speaker 2: there's some that.

696
00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:45,719
Speaker 3: Have a lot of programs.

697
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:48,320
Speaker 2: And by the way, I'm not an enemy of private

698
00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:50,919
Speaker 2: prisons per se, and I don't think that they're necessarily worse.

699
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:54,720
Speaker 2: I just want prisons to treat people in humane ways

700
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:56,640
Speaker 2: and to.

701
00:39:56,719 --> 00:39:59,520
Speaker 1: Hear people that are in the be guilty, be guilty.

702
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:01,800
Speaker 3: That's right. That's about the judicial system.

703
00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:05,280
Speaker 2: But I've seen other countries where it works much much better.

704
00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:07,800
Speaker 2: And that's what I try to bring forth in this book,

705
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:11,120
Speaker 2: is to learn from successful models because the US is

706
00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:15,400
Speaker 2: doing everything wrong, everything wrong on a judicial level, everything

707
00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:17,759
Speaker 2: wrong in terms of prison conditions and how people are

708
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:19,040
Speaker 2: treated when they're incarcerated.

709
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:23,560
Speaker 1: As an aside before we go forward, I would love

710
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:28,880
Speaker 1: for you to call me later. But I get we

711
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:32,640
Speaker 1: have more homicides because of our right to bear arms

712
00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:36,359
Speaker 1: and guns and all of that that don't exist in

713
00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:39,600
Speaker 1: most of the other world. But we had that same

714
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:44,479
Speaker 1: right in nineteen sixty We had all those same rights

715
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:49,880
Speaker 1: Friday nineteen seventy one. Yeah, so I would argue based

716
00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:55,880
Speaker 1: on that, maybe inaccurately, but I don't want to be

717
00:40:56,040 --> 00:41:02,160
Speaker 1: the shark with the ice cream guy. But we had

718
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:03,880
Speaker 1: the right to bear arms Friday night.

719
00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:08,080
Speaker 2: Homicide rates have always been higher in the US, but

720
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:09,919
Speaker 2: I'm not trying to say that changed per se.

721
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:11,120
Speaker 3: And I agree that's just.

722
00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:16,640
Speaker 1: Put I think that's an interesting, maybe an interesting thing

723
00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:21,400
Speaker 1: just to look at because Okay, yeah, we got guns.

724
00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:23,799
Speaker 1: Homicides higher than everywhere else because we've got guns, And

725
00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:26,840
Speaker 1: I get it, and we could in good Lord, that's

726
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:31,640
Speaker 1: another five month conversation and argument to be had. But

727
00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:34,800
Speaker 1: the point is, if the homicide rates have also spiked,

728
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:36,440
Speaker 1: we can't just say it's because of guns.

729
00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:39,799
Speaker 2: We haven't spiked. They've always been high. Yeah, it's not

730
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:44,360
Speaker 2: it's not a spike. They are just consistently higher in

731
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:46,640
Speaker 2: the U less than in other countries that don't have guns,

732
00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:48,480
Speaker 2: got it, But they're not.

733
00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:51,200
Speaker 1: It's not a causal argument. It's just that that's just.

734
00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:54,120
Speaker 2: The way it basically always has been.

735
00:41:54,920 --> 00:42:01,800
Speaker 1: So, Marty. Yeah, free the free theo that are wrongfully convicted.

736
00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:06,000
Speaker 1: But now you have, as you you talked about just

737
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:11,839
Speaker 1: a little bit earlier, you're now embracing the guilty. They

738
00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:15,279
Speaker 1: did it. Yeah, Why why are you embracing them? Yeah?

739
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:18,799
Speaker 1: And that's a little tongue in cheek, take it up

740
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:22,640
Speaker 1: for you again, But I mean, why embrace the guilty?

741
00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:23,880
Speaker 3: Yeah?

742
00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:26,440
Speaker 2: And let me just first say this is something I've

743
00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:31,520
Speaker 2: spent a lot of time thinking about, working through, struggling with,

744
00:42:31,719 --> 00:42:35,640
Speaker 2: and so what I'll ask you and especially your listeners

745
00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:36,280
Speaker 2: is for.

746
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:38,359
Speaker 3: A little bit of grace to allow.

747
00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:40,399
Speaker 2: Me to explain how I got to this point, because

748
00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:42,520
Speaker 2: it's not something that you can.

749
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:45,960
Speaker 3: Just sort of like intuitively grasp.

750
00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:51,560
Speaker 2: It's not something that, certainly from a position of thinking

751
00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:55,359
Speaker 2: of victims of crime, that automatically makes sense. Because I

752
00:42:55,480 --> 00:43:00,840
Speaker 2: understand the perspective of someone who says, this person committed harm,

753
00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:03,839
Speaker 2: why should they ever get to enjoy a single thing

754
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:09,120
Speaker 2: of life ever? Again, I understand that, but I ultimately

755
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:13,720
Speaker 2: in the end think differently, respectfully. And the reason why

756
00:43:14,239 --> 00:43:18,640
Speaker 2: is that ninety five percent of people in prison are

757
00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:21,759
Speaker 2: getting out one day. In other words, they don't have

758
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:24,000
Speaker 2: life without parole sentences, they don't have a death penalty.

759
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:26,600
Speaker 2: They have a sentence that will allow them to get free.

760
00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:29,600
Speaker 2: Going back to what we talked about earlier, I want

761
00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:32,280
Speaker 2: a society that has low crime. I don't want people

762
00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:35,080
Speaker 2: to be hurt. I don't want there to be future victims.

763
00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:37,799
Speaker 2: If there's anything I could do that would be for

764
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:40,359
Speaker 2: the future, it would be to minimize future people from

765
00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:41,120
Speaker 2: being hurt.

766
00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:44,040
Speaker 3: I believe very.

767
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:47,439
Speaker 2: Strongly now based on evidence and their stats to back

768
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:50,959
Speaker 2: this up, but also my own lived experience now that

769
00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:56,839
Speaker 2: when people who are incarcerated, and let's say, who were

770
00:43:56,880 --> 00:44:00,680
Speaker 2: guilty of the crime they were convicted of, when they

771
00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:06,719
Speaker 2: are given opportunities to grow and change, they will not

772
00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:08,719
Speaker 2: go back to a life of crime. And so when

773
00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:10,800
Speaker 2: they reach that exit door one day, they will be

774
00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:15,280
Speaker 2: prepared to come out and to stay away from crime,

775
00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:20,080
Speaker 2: to succeed and to be positive, contributing members of society.

776
00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:24,720
Speaker 2: And I've seen this over and over again. So either

777
00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:27,799
Speaker 2: we say, hey, anyone who commits a crime should never

778
00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:29,040
Speaker 2: ever get out period.

779
00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:30,960
Speaker 3: I would disagree with.

780
00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:33,799
Speaker 2: That, but I would understand that somebody would have that

781
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:39,200
Speaker 2: view when they're pissed and they're vengeful. But since that's

782
00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:41,040
Speaker 2: not the case, and I don't think that will be

783
00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:45,160
Speaker 2: the case, I think it's very important to do everything

784
00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:48,439
Speaker 2: we can to change people when they're in prison. That's

785
00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:51,680
Speaker 2: what they do in Norway and Germany and other European countries.

786
00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:57,239
Speaker 2: Prison is the punishment for having committed a crime, and

787
00:44:57,280 --> 00:45:00,000
Speaker 2: that punishment is the separation from society. You don't get

788
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:01,680
Speaker 2: to live at home anymore, you don't get to be

789
00:45:01,719 --> 00:45:05,000
Speaker 2: with your family anymore. You are put in an institution

790
00:45:05,239 --> 00:45:07,800
Speaker 2: for a certain number of years decided by a system

791
00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:14,120
Speaker 2: by judge, et cetera. And then during that time, the

792
00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:18,160
Speaker 2: prison and the prison system will work on rehabilitation, on

793
00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:20,920
Speaker 2: making it so that you change, so that you overcome

794
00:45:21,280 --> 00:45:22,920
Speaker 2: your addiction problem, if that was a.

795
00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:27,600
Speaker 1: Part of it. You work through your violence and your anger.

796
00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:32,440
Speaker 2: You you know, are given time to change and age

797
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:34,800
Speaker 2: out of crime. So much of crime is simply about

798
00:45:34,840 --> 00:45:37,920
Speaker 2: simple biology. And you know, people who are young, who

799
00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:40,720
Speaker 2: don't have their prefrontal cortex form and make stupid decision,

800
00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:42,000
Speaker 2: especially boys especially.

801
00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:44,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean there's so much evidence on that.

802
00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:47,240
Speaker 1: I mean, is still forming.

803
00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:53,680
Speaker 3: I know, yeah, arguably, yeah.

804
00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:54,440
Speaker 1: Yeah.

805
00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:58,799
Speaker 2: But so if you accept the reality that ninety five

806
00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:01,120
Speaker 2: percent of people are going to get out, and if

807
00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:05,320
Speaker 2: you want to prevent and minimize crime in the future,

808
00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:11,279
Speaker 2: you would and should, I would argue support programs that

809
00:46:11,360 --> 00:46:15,000
Speaker 2: will allow people to improve while they're in prison and

810
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:17,799
Speaker 2: that when they get out they will not even think

811
00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:20,399
Speaker 2: about going to a life of crime. And I hope

812
00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:21,759
Speaker 2: I'll get a chance to talk about some of the

813
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:24,960
Speaker 2: programs that I've been running in prisons in jails, because

814
00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:27,719
Speaker 2: it is proof of that concept.

815
00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:30,000
Speaker 1: This is it. So I want to hear about it.

816
00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:33,399
Speaker 1: I think our listeners need.

817
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:36,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know. And again, this is really tough.

818
00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:40,319
Speaker 2: This is tough to grasp, and so I'm asking you

819
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:43,560
Speaker 2: and listeners to kind of walk into prison with me

820
00:46:44,280 --> 00:46:46,719
Speaker 2: to see this both now as I talk about it

821
00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:49,360
Speaker 2: and then eventually with the Frederick Douglas Project on a

822
00:46:49,440 --> 00:46:51,280
Speaker 2: visit in prison to meet actually persons.

823
00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:53,840
Speaker 1: As I listen to you, I'm reminded of one of

824
00:46:53,880 --> 00:47:03,759
Speaker 1: my favorite quotes, little perspective. Yeah, maybe a little wake

825
00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:09,400
Speaker 1: up call is that we are still a predominantly Christian

826
00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:14,640
Speaker 1: country and our whole faith is based on grace, which

827
00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:21,080
Speaker 1: is forgiveness. Yeah, I know, and the irony that still

828
00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:24,239
Speaker 1: more than sixty percent of us say we are at

829
00:47:24,320 --> 00:47:28,160
Speaker 1: least in some way Christian or faithful subscribing to the

830
00:47:28,239 --> 00:47:31,719
Speaker 1: notion of forgiveness and grace. Because without grace and forgiveness,

831
00:47:31,719 --> 00:47:34,040
Speaker 1: what's the point Christianity in the first place. That's the

832
00:47:34,080 --> 00:47:40,919
Speaker 1: whole story of the Crucifixion, to then turn around when

833
00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:43,799
Speaker 1: we are sinners and expect grace and forgiveness for our

834
00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:45,960
Speaker 1: own salvation and then not want to offer it to

835
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:50,719
Speaker 1: another fallen human being. So from a faith standpoint, I'm

836
00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:54,840
Speaker 1: very conflicted. Yeah, And I'm also reminded of one of

837
00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:57,759
Speaker 1: my favorite codes quotes is from JFK and he said,

838
00:47:57,800 --> 00:48:03,160
Speaker 1: there is a difference in a pardon and forgiveness. Society

839
00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:09,040
Speaker 1: cannot pardon the missteps, but we have to forgive them. Yeah.

840
00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:11,759
Speaker 1: So I just thought i'd tea up that perspective in

841
00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:12,480
Speaker 1: your progress.

842
00:48:13,239 --> 00:48:18,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, because I think that perspective is really important.

843
00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:21,240
Speaker 2: I don't want to delve too far into the religious aspect,

844
00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:29,319
Speaker 2: but I would love to see a lot more forgiveness, grace, redemption, compassion,

845
00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:33,320
Speaker 2: all of which I think are very deeply.

846
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:35,480
Speaker 3: Central to.

847
00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:40,400
Speaker 2: Christianity, but I think tend to get a little forgotten

848
00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:43,160
Speaker 2: in this criminal justice discussion.

849
00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:45,440
Speaker 1: And the same people who like to stand on the

850
00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:49,400
Speaker 1: foundation and beat their chest that this country was founded

851
00:48:49,440 --> 00:48:52,719
Speaker 1: on Judeo Christian values are oftentimes the same people that

852
00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:54,520
Speaker 1: say they want to be tough on crime and throw

853
00:48:54,560 --> 00:48:59,280
Speaker 1: these people in jail forever. And it's hypocritically yeah, yeah,

854
00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:00,759
Speaker 1: so go into your prog Yeah.

855
00:49:00,840 --> 00:49:03,120
Speaker 2: So you know, I started, as I mentioned earlier, I

856
00:49:03,239 --> 00:49:07,000
Speaker 2: started volunteer teaching in prison in twenty fourteen, and that

857
00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:11,160
Speaker 2: was because I was starting at that point to teach

858
00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:13,320
Speaker 2: about prisons. I was reading about them, but I really

859
00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:16,080
Speaker 2: had very little understanding of what actually took place inside.

860
00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:18,319
Speaker 2: I was able to start taking my students on a

861
00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:20,640
Speaker 2: tour and visiting a prison, but it was under very

862
00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:21,719
Speaker 2: restrictive conditions.

863
00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:23,759
Speaker 3: The warden would say things.

864
00:49:23,560 --> 00:49:26,840
Speaker 2: Like no eye contact with the inmates, you know, and

865
00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:28,400
Speaker 2: it was like this, by the way, I don't use

866
00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:30,360
Speaker 2: that word inmate, and I want to get you and

867
00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:33,400
Speaker 2: others to never use that word. It's a very like dehumanizing,

868
00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:36,280
Speaker 2: stigmatizing word that just doesn't see them as human beings.

869
00:49:36,360 --> 00:49:37,439
Speaker 1: What do you want to call them?

870
00:49:37,640 --> 00:49:40,560
Speaker 3: Incarcerated people? Okay, so.

871
00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:44,680
Speaker 2: Those visits, you know, I could see, like I would

872
00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:46,839
Speaker 2: walk through and see where the buildings were and what

873
00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:48,719
Speaker 2: a cell looked like, and that was useful. But I

874
00:49:48,719 --> 00:49:52,040
Speaker 2: couldn't talk to people, and I wanted to talk to people.

875
00:49:52,040 --> 00:49:53,680
Speaker 2: So I found out about a program that was in

876
00:49:53,719 --> 00:49:55,920
Speaker 2: a prison in Maryland, not too far from DC. I

877
00:49:55,960 --> 00:49:58,480
Speaker 2: started volunteering, started teaching, and I just got hooked. And

878
00:49:59,560 --> 00:50:04,279
Speaker 2: I developed incredible ties with a group of incarcerated men

879
00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:08,120
Speaker 2: thirty or so plus or minus and over different courses

880
00:50:08,280 --> 00:50:12,200
Speaker 2: for years, where I was going in week after week,

881
00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:15,719
Speaker 2: you know, fully volunteer, paying my own gas whatever, just

882
00:50:16,640 --> 00:50:20,120
Speaker 2: because I loved the exchanges that we had, and I

883
00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:22,320
Speaker 2: would be teaching. But I was learning so much more

884
00:50:22,719 --> 00:50:24,359
Speaker 2: than I was teaching when it comes down to it.

885
00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:25,160
Speaker 1: I was learning from them.

886
00:50:25,920 --> 00:50:28,840
Speaker 2: And I saw this transformation happen in front of my

887
00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:32,200
Speaker 2: own eyes. I saw a man with a huge tattoo

888
00:50:32,239 --> 00:50:34,600
Speaker 2: on his forearm that said kill A with an A

889
00:50:35,680 --> 00:50:40,280
Speaker 2: who left his gang as a result of the first

890
00:50:40,280 --> 00:50:45,480
Speaker 2: class he took with me and ended up becoming an

891
00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:49,000
Speaker 2: amazing student, ended up getting a bachelor's degree that he

892
00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:51,000
Speaker 2: was almost done with in prison, and then got released

893
00:50:51,040 --> 00:50:53,280
Speaker 2: from prison and got it when he came home from prison.

894
00:50:54,880 --> 00:50:59,680
Speaker 2: I've seen so many other people who previously have been violent,

895
00:51:00,040 --> 00:51:02,799
Speaker 2: committed harm, have hurt people. I don't want to mince words.

896
00:51:02,840 --> 00:51:04,480
Speaker 2: I don't want to shy away, you know, I want

897
00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:06,880
Speaker 2: to be real. I'm not trying to say like they

898
00:51:06,880 --> 00:51:08,960
Speaker 2: were in for you know, smoking a joint and got

899
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:11,719
Speaker 2: pulled over, and sense that the years they're talking people

900
00:51:11,800 --> 00:51:16,319
Speaker 2: who were bad dudes and did bad things, but who

901
00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:19,280
Speaker 2: are capable of so much more, and who are capable

902
00:51:19,280 --> 00:51:22,439
Speaker 2: of transforming as they age, as they grow, as they learn,

903
00:51:23,040 --> 00:51:27,600
Speaker 2: as their priorities shift, and who when they get released again.

904
00:51:27,640 --> 00:51:30,280
Speaker 2: I'm not controlling their release. That's the court system, which

905
00:51:30,440 --> 00:51:33,480
Speaker 2: is flawed too. But eventually they get to that door

906
00:51:34,080 --> 00:51:37,480
Speaker 2: and they're going to be ready. And now through that

907
00:51:37,719 --> 00:51:41,440
Speaker 2: I taught in that program. Then the program got canceled, ironically,

908
00:51:41,480 --> 00:51:43,680
Speaker 2: because we were doing such a good thing and there

909
00:51:43,760 --> 00:51:46,040
Speaker 2: was so much interest in these classes, and the prison

910
00:51:46,160 --> 00:51:48,800
Speaker 2: was like, oh, this is like too much. Now they're

911
00:51:48,880 --> 00:51:51,520
Speaker 2: you know, they're writing like grievance letters and they're demanding

912
00:51:51,560 --> 00:51:53,719
Speaker 2: their rights and so on. So they shut it down.

913
00:51:54,680 --> 00:51:57,440
Speaker 2: Then I went to a different facility. You know, expression

914
00:51:57,560 --> 00:52:00,279
Speaker 2: one door closes and another door opens, started up a

915
00:52:00,320 --> 00:52:02,640
Speaker 2: program at the DC jail. This time, I built up

916
00:52:02,680 --> 00:52:05,240
Speaker 2: more of an institution at Georgetown. I'd started the Prisons

917
00:52:05,239 --> 00:52:07,920
Speaker 2: and Justice Initiative, and I said, hey, how about we

918
00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:13,040
Speaker 2: bring a Georgetown program to the DC Jail. The director responded, yeah, yesterday.

919
00:52:13,840 --> 00:52:16,840
Speaker 2: We started two weeks later. Then a semester after that,

920
00:52:16,880 --> 00:52:19,359
Speaker 2: we started offering credit bearing courses. Now we have four

921
00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:22,719
Speaker 2: credit bearing courses a year, taught by Georgetown faculty at

922
00:52:22,719 --> 00:52:23,520
Speaker 2: the dcjail.

923
00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:25,359
Speaker 1: We have students by Georgetown.

924
00:52:25,880 --> 00:52:26,520
Speaker 3: Georgetown.

925
00:52:26,520 --> 00:52:29,200
Speaker 1: We're a better education than I mean, that's a lot

926
00:52:29,200 --> 00:52:29,600
Speaker 1: of people.

927
00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:30,200
Speaker 3: Yeah.

928
00:52:30,280 --> 00:52:32,760
Speaker 2: And then we started hold on a bachelor's degree program

929
00:52:32,800 --> 00:52:34,000
Speaker 2: in a Maryland prison.

930
00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:36,560
Speaker 1: Which took so much work. A bachelor's a.

931
00:52:36,640 --> 00:52:41,680
Speaker 3: Georgetown degree program. It's a five year program. We have

932
00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:42,760
Speaker 3: one more year and we're.

933
00:52:42,600 --> 00:52:46,280
Speaker 2: Gonna have our first graduation in a prison with Georgetown

934
00:52:46,360 --> 00:52:49,160
Speaker 2: diplomas that are handed out to incarcerated students.

935
00:52:49,400 --> 00:52:51,719
Speaker 1: And when I get out of prison, they will have

936
00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:53,480
Speaker 1: a diploma from Georgetown.

937
00:52:53,640 --> 00:52:55,279
Speaker 3: Right, They're going to have it even while they're in prison.

938
00:52:55,360 --> 00:52:57,120
Speaker 1: How could that not be life changing?

939
00:52:57,280 --> 00:52:58,640
Speaker 3: It's totally life changing.

940
00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:00,520
Speaker 2: What But now I know there's a pard to you

941
00:53:00,920 --> 00:53:03,160
Speaker 2: and certainly listeners who are saying, why do they deserve that?

942
00:53:03,239 --> 00:53:04,760
Speaker 1: Why are they getting a Georgian degree?

943
00:53:04,800 --> 00:53:05,600
Speaker 3: And it's for free.

944
00:53:06,239 --> 00:53:09,600
Speaker 2: We have it funded by donors and by foundations that

945
00:53:09,600 --> 00:53:12,759
Speaker 2: have supported our program. And my answer is, we are

946
00:53:12,880 --> 00:53:16,520
Speaker 2: reducing crime. We are reducing costs. It costs fifty thousand

947
00:53:16,520 --> 00:53:19,480
Speaker 2: a year on average to incarcerate somebody. Some states it's

948
00:53:19,480 --> 00:53:22,840
Speaker 2: as high as eighty thousand a year. When somebody is

949
00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:26,200
Speaker 2: ready to return to society and when somebody does not

950
00:53:26,360 --> 00:53:29,960
Speaker 2: commit a future crime. We are saving money. We are

951
00:53:30,040 --> 00:53:33,160
Speaker 2: saving victims, which is even more important than money. It's priceless.

952
00:53:33,760 --> 00:53:36,640
Speaker 2: We are reducing crime, and we are making our society better.

953
00:53:36,640 --> 00:53:41,600
Speaker 2: We're helping children. Fifty percent of incarcerated people have kids. Imagine,

954
00:53:41,840 --> 00:53:44,160
Speaker 2: and I know you had some on your football team

955
00:53:44,200 --> 00:53:45,880
Speaker 2: that you coached who've got a parent in prison.

956
00:53:45,920 --> 00:53:49,040
Speaker 3: How hard is that that kid just doing the time.

957
00:53:49,200 --> 00:53:52,719
Speaker 2: Many many yes, I know that kid's doing the time too,

958
00:53:52,760 --> 00:53:55,879
Speaker 2: and they are fully innocent, and so what we're doing

959
00:53:55,880 --> 00:53:58,960
Speaker 2: with these programs. We also have reentry programs which I

960
00:53:58,960 --> 00:54:01,640
Speaker 2: can get into too. We'll get out, but we are

961
00:54:01,719 --> 00:54:04,880
Speaker 2: helping to reduce crime and cost and making our society

962
00:54:04,960 --> 00:54:08,080
Speaker 2: better by giving people support in prison so they can

963
00:54:08,160 --> 00:54:10,360
Speaker 2: change their lives and turn their lives around and be

964
00:54:10,440 --> 00:54:14,880
Speaker 2: positive contributors and role models to society.

965
00:54:15,560 --> 00:54:28,920
Speaker 1: We'll be right back. All of that is so pragmatically,

966
00:54:30,640 --> 00:54:37,080
Speaker 1: fantastic pragmatically, but I think there's another reason. The question

967
00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:40,239
Speaker 1: was that you just asked us that we should be

968
00:54:40,280 --> 00:54:42,759
Speaker 1: asking ourselves, is why do these people deserve it? Why

969
00:54:42,760 --> 00:54:46,040
Speaker 1: are they getting this? And the pragmatic answer is everything

970
00:54:46,080 --> 00:54:50,920
Speaker 1: you just said. I think there's an idealistic answer to

971
00:54:51,080 --> 00:54:57,120
Speaker 1: that actually matters, and it comes from this question. What

972
00:54:57,320 --> 00:55:01,600
Speaker 1: percent of the people you work with in prisons are

973
00:55:01,680 --> 00:55:04,319
Speaker 1: victims of some kind of childhood trauma themselves?

974
00:55:04,920 --> 00:55:10,440
Speaker 2: Almost all of them? And that is so important, So

975
00:55:10,520 --> 00:55:13,520
Speaker 2: grateful that you brought that up. It's something to be honest,

976
00:55:13,560 --> 00:55:17,320
Speaker 2: I didn't fully recognize and appreciate when I first started

977
00:55:17,360 --> 00:55:20,000
Speaker 2: doing this work, and I remember getting a little bit

978
00:55:20,000 --> 00:55:22,920
Speaker 2: of a sense of it, and then, you know, because

979
00:55:23,480 --> 00:55:26,520
Speaker 2: society likes to make this distinction, you know, good and evil.

980
00:55:26,680 --> 00:55:28,799
Speaker 2: You've got shows like Law and Order where there's like,

981
00:55:28,840 --> 00:55:30,920
Speaker 2: you know, the good people trying to solve the crimes

982
00:55:30,920 --> 00:55:32,960
Speaker 2: and the bad people committed them, and it's just like

983
00:55:33,160 --> 00:55:34,200
Speaker 2: all one of the other.

984
00:55:34,320 --> 00:55:37,680
Speaker 1: And it's so neat. Exactly every episode you tie up

985
00:55:37,719 --> 00:55:37,960
Speaker 1: in a.

986
00:55:37,920 --> 00:55:39,880
Speaker 2: Bow and go to sleep at night feeling good, Oh

987
00:55:40,320 --> 00:55:41,439
Speaker 2: I got caught, We're all safe.

988
00:55:41,520 --> 00:55:42,560
Speaker 3: Ry well.

989
00:55:43,440 --> 00:55:45,520
Speaker 2: I remember once being in a room and by this

990
00:55:45,600 --> 00:55:48,080
Speaker 2: time I'd been going and regularly these guys we had trust,

991
00:55:48,160 --> 00:55:50,080
Speaker 2: we had a bond. They trusted me, and that's in

992
00:55:50,080 --> 00:55:52,279
Speaker 2: some ways was harder to earn. I had to earn

993
00:55:52,320 --> 00:55:54,080
Speaker 2: their trust. I do every single time I go into

994
00:55:54,120 --> 00:55:58,160
Speaker 2: a prison, which again is like you know, several times

995
00:55:58,160 --> 00:56:00,959
Speaker 2: a week. But I remember one time, I just said,

996
00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:05,279
Speaker 2: you know, I'm curious, how many of you, before he

997
00:56:05,360 --> 00:56:09,160
Speaker 2: came to prison, how many of you lost a close person,

998
00:56:09,280 --> 00:56:13,120
Speaker 2: I mean close, you know, someone that you grew up with,

999
00:56:13,160 --> 00:56:16,279
Speaker 2: a parent, a sibling. There were like thirty guys in

1000
00:56:16,320 --> 00:56:19,040
Speaker 2: the room, like twenty eight hands went up, and I'm

1001
00:56:19,040 --> 00:56:26,880
Speaker 2: thinking that is just unimaginable to me. I can't real that,

1002
00:56:27,000 --> 00:56:31,440
Speaker 2: and in a way, I think is a direct cause

1003
00:56:31,600 --> 00:56:34,120
Speaker 2: for the conduct they then committed that led them to

1004
00:56:34,160 --> 00:56:36,080
Speaker 2: go to prison. There's a guy that I remember.

1005
00:56:36,120 --> 00:56:38,040
Speaker 1: How many of them were abused? How many of them?

1006
00:56:38,200 --> 00:56:38,560
Speaker 3: So many?

1007
00:56:38,680 --> 00:56:40,200
Speaker 1: How many of them children had.

1008
00:56:40,280 --> 00:56:43,759
Speaker 2: Cigarette butts in the head by their dad or stepdad

1009
00:56:43,800 --> 00:56:45,520
Speaker 2: or whatever, you know.

1010
00:56:45,560 --> 00:56:49,000
Speaker 3: I remember a guy, Bobby who he was.

1011
00:56:49,120 --> 00:56:51,720
Speaker 2: He was telling a story and he mentions in passing

1012
00:56:52,080 --> 00:56:55,759
Speaker 2: that he was about, I think about ten years old,

1013
00:56:56,560 --> 00:56:58,200
Speaker 2: and he was going to get to another part of

1014
00:56:58,239 --> 00:56:59,719
Speaker 2: the story, which I don't even remember, and I want

1015
00:56:59,719 --> 00:57:02,280
Speaker 2: to doesn't it's not even relevant, But just in passing,

1016
00:57:02,360 --> 00:57:05,320
Speaker 2: he's telling me how he had these two older brothers

1017
00:57:05,360 --> 00:57:07,040
Speaker 2: and they were his role models, and they were really

1018
00:57:07,040 --> 00:57:08,600
Speaker 2: close in age, all three of them, and he was

1019
00:57:08,640 --> 00:57:10,000
Speaker 2: the youngest of the three, and they were.

1020
00:57:09,960 --> 00:57:10,840
Speaker 3: Two older sisters.

1021
00:57:10,840 --> 00:57:13,880
Speaker 2: But he was so tight with his brothers, and he

1022
00:57:14,080 --> 00:57:16,840
Speaker 2: just admired them and idolized them the way a younger

1023
00:57:16,840 --> 00:57:20,240
Speaker 2: brother does his older brothers, right, And he mentions that

1024
00:57:20,320 --> 00:57:24,240
Speaker 2: they were both murdered within like three months of each other.

1025
00:57:25,080 --> 00:57:26,600
Speaker 2: And he was then getting on to a point and

1026
00:57:26,640 --> 00:57:30,240
Speaker 2: I stopped my bud. Her you were ten years old

1027
00:57:31,160 --> 00:57:34,680
Speaker 2: and you lost to murder. You lost your two brothers.

1028
00:57:36,800 --> 00:57:39,120
Speaker 2: And then at sixteen, he commits murder and goes to

1029
00:57:39,160 --> 00:57:42,880
Speaker 2: prison for life, But so is he guilty of murder?

1030
00:57:42,960 --> 00:57:46,240
Speaker 3: Did he take a yes? But you got to take

1031
00:57:46,240 --> 00:57:47,280
Speaker 3: that into context.

1032
00:57:48,000 --> 00:57:50,040
Speaker 2: And when you start hearing those stories over and over,

1033
00:57:50,920 --> 00:57:55,200
Speaker 2: you realize we're not really solving the problem of harm.

1034
00:57:55,400 --> 00:57:59,240
Speaker 1: We're just sort of actually perpetuating it over and over.

1035
00:57:59,520 --> 00:58:02,720
Speaker 2: And the way we do it now in general, doesn't

1036
00:58:02,720 --> 00:58:05,640
Speaker 2: help people. People come out worse than when they went in,

1037
00:58:06,000 --> 00:58:08,240
Speaker 2: which is why we need these programs, why we need

1038
00:58:08,280 --> 00:58:11,640
Speaker 2: so many more of them. They should be all across America.

1039
00:58:11,760 --> 00:58:15,280
Speaker 2: Prisons should be about rehabilitation. I'm not and I'll be

1040
00:58:15,400 --> 00:58:17,600
Speaker 2: clear on this, and I have sometimes students who are

1041
00:58:17,640 --> 00:58:19,800
Speaker 2: like strident, like I'm a prison abolitionist.

1042
00:58:19,840 --> 00:58:21,800
Speaker 1: No one should be in prison. I don't agree with that.

1043
00:58:21,840 --> 00:58:24,080
Speaker 2: I think somebody is hurting other people should be separated

1044
00:58:24,080 --> 00:58:28,440
Speaker 2: from society, but they should be safe. Shouldn't be subject

1045
00:58:28,520 --> 00:58:31,640
Speaker 2: to violence, sexual violence. If we didn't even get into that,

1046
00:58:31,640 --> 00:58:33,520
Speaker 2: that's the horror show that takes place in a lot

1047
00:58:33,520 --> 00:58:37,560
Speaker 2: of prisons too. But they should be given opportunities to

1048
00:58:37,680 --> 00:58:41,640
Speaker 2: change and to improve and to come out better. Other

1049
00:58:41,680 --> 00:58:45,760
Speaker 2: countries do that. Some American prisons do that. Some programs,

1050
00:58:46,000 --> 00:58:48,480
Speaker 2: including the programs that I run in prisons, do that.

1051
00:58:49,440 --> 00:58:52,120
Speaker 2: But we need them to be everywhere because otherwise we're

1052
00:58:52,200 --> 00:58:55,560
Speaker 2: literally just contributing to more crime. So we think it's

1053
00:58:55,600 --> 00:59:00,520
Speaker 2: being tough on crime, but we're actually enabling and contributing

1054
00:59:00,560 --> 00:59:01,760
Speaker 2: to more crime down the road.

1055
00:59:01,840 --> 00:59:04,120
Speaker 1: That's the What does it? What does it cost to

1056
00:59:04,200 --> 00:59:08,920
Speaker 1: house a not an inmate, an incarcerated person annually?

1057
00:59:09,880 --> 00:59:12,640
Speaker 2: It costs anywhere from thirty to seventy thousand a year,

1058
00:59:12,680 --> 00:59:15,480
Speaker 2: so I say roughly fifty thousand on average nationally, depends

1059
00:59:15,480 --> 00:59:16,000
Speaker 2: on the area.

1060
00:59:16,160 --> 00:59:19,120
Speaker 1: What's it cost to educate one of them in prison? Oh?

1061
00:59:19,160 --> 00:59:21,400
Speaker 2: I mean a fraction of that, you know, I mean,

1062
00:59:21,480 --> 00:59:23,360
Speaker 2: you know when you have another present.

1063
00:59:23,240 --> 00:59:25,400
Speaker 1: Answer to it right there? I mean, just from a

1064
00:59:25,440 --> 00:59:30,200
Speaker 1: cost standpoint, what are we doing? We spend more to

1065
00:59:30,360 --> 00:59:32,880
Speaker 1: imprison a person than we do to educate h I

1066
00:59:32,880 --> 00:59:38,760
Speaker 1: mean in Memphis, to Sendeka to school is sixteen thousand

1067
00:59:38,800 --> 00:59:41,720
Speaker 1: dollars a year all in, and it's fifty to lock

1068
00:59:41,760 --> 00:59:44,840
Speaker 1: one up. We can educate three for locking up every one.

1069
00:59:44,960 --> 00:59:46,240
Speaker 1: What are we doing? That's right?

1070
00:59:47,040 --> 00:59:48,680
Speaker 2: So there's a lot that should be done on the

1071
00:59:48,720 --> 00:59:50,800
Speaker 2: early end too, and a lot of states have cut

1072
00:59:50,840 --> 00:59:54,040
Speaker 2: their education budgets just as they're increasing their correction budgets.

1073
00:59:54,080 --> 00:59:56,120
Speaker 2: These are like two lines that cross like an X.

1074
00:59:57,200 --> 01:00:00,440
Speaker 2: But I really believe, and I know you leave this

1075
01:00:00,520 --> 01:00:03,200
Speaker 2: as well, that we should never give up on anybody.

1076
01:00:03,960 --> 01:00:05,040
Speaker 2: I believe people.

1077
01:00:04,760 --> 01:00:10,400
Speaker 1: Are capably believe the human is redempt of Now, yeah,

1078
01:00:10,480 --> 01:00:12,480
Speaker 1: there are some people who are.

1079
01:00:13,640 --> 01:00:18,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's some some very psychotic.

1080
01:00:17,680 --> 01:00:20,440
Speaker 3: Something or other. Yeah, but that's not the tiny percentage.

1081
01:00:20,560 --> 01:00:20,720
Speaker 1: Now.

1082
01:00:21,440 --> 01:00:26,400
Speaker 2: The vast majority of people are capable of change, are

1083
01:00:26,440 --> 01:00:29,720
Speaker 2: capable of overcoming circumstances, are capable of being.

1084
01:00:29,560 --> 01:00:31,320
Speaker 3: Good and doing good.

1085
01:00:32,280 --> 01:00:34,240
Speaker 2: And I believe that, and I think that I've helped

1086
01:00:34,240 --> 01:00:36,640
Speaker 2: to create that and want to continue to expand it.

1087
01:00:37,160 --> 01:00:41,479
Speaker 1: So then the next step is after prison. I asked

1088
01:00:41,520 --> 01:00:44,800
Speaker 1: you earlier what do people not really understand about incarceration

1089
01:00:44,960 --> 01:00:47,800
Speaker 1: in the United States? And I think you amply answered that.

1090
01:00:48,800 --> 01:00:51,080
Speaker 1: The next step is what do people not really understand

1091
01:00:51,080 --> 01:00:54,920
Speaker 1: about re entry? Which is horrifically difficult.

1092
01:00:55,000 --> 01:00:55,800
Speaker 3: It's really hard.

1093
01:00:56,280 --> 01:01:00,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I should say again, learning from the European model,

1094
01:01:00,160 --> 01:01:03,320
Speaker 2: as I wrote about in my book Unusually Cruel and

1095
01:01:03,400 --> 01:01:08,080
Speaker 2: have experienced in spending time in other countries other countries.

1096
01:01:08,160 --> 01:01:12,880
Speaker 2: Not only is incarceration about rehabilitation and preparing you.

1097
01:01:12,920 --> 01:01:15,120
Speaker 3: But they actually help you with the re entry process.

1098
01:01:15,160 --> 01:01:16,280
Speaker 3: They help you get a job.

1099
01:01:16,600 --> 01:01:19,680
Speaker 2: Your last six months of incarceration, you're working in a job,

1100
01:01:19,920 --> 01:01:22,520
Speaker 2: going out of the prison, and then coming back. So

1101
01:01:22,720 --> 01:01:26,000
Speaker 2: it's all about a gradual transition process that makes you

1102
01:01:26,720 --> 01:01:29,920
Speaker 2: a contributing member of society. They work with you on

1103
01:01:29,960 --> 01:01:32,600
Speaker 2: your resume and how to explain in interviews that you

1104
01:01:32,600 --> 01:01:33,520
Speaker 2: were incarcerated.

1105
01:01:33,960 --> 01:01:35,360
Speaker 3: Right, what do you do when you have a gap

1106
01:01:35,760 --> 01:01:36,080
Speaker 3: like that?

1107
01:01:36,160 --> 01:01:38,640
Speaker 2: I mean, in this country, you come out and your

1108
01:01:38,680 --> 01:01:42,200
Speaker 2: records still haunt you. You run a big scarlet f on

1109
01:01:42,240 --> 01:01:46,880
Speaker 2: your chest for felon, and that in every job application.

1110
01:01:46,480 --> 01:01:47,280
Speaker 3: Is going to come up.

1111
01:01:47,680 --> 01:01:49,720
Speaker 2: There's this whole thing about banned the box, about the

1112
01:01:49,720 --> 01:01:52,120
Speaker 2: first stage when you apply, about whether there's a box

1113
01:01:52,160 --> 01:01:53,400
Speaker 2: to check that you're a felon or not.

1114
01:01:53,520 --> 01:01:55,240
Speaker 1: And a lot of people are excited because some.

1115
01:01:55,560 --> 01:01:58,200
Speaker 2: Cities and states have banned the box so that you

1116
01:01:58,200 --> 01:01:59,960
Speaker 2: don't have to do it, but it comes up later anyway.

1117
01:02:00,080 --> 01:02:01,280
Speaker 3: It's just as damaging.

1118
01:02:01,880 --> 01:02:05,280
Speaker 2: The problem is that you never really get over your

1119
01:02:05,320 --> 01:02:08,160
Speaker 2: past in this country, and they are all these what

1120
01:02:08,200 --> 01:02:11,000
Speaker 2: are called collateral consequences, these ways in which you're restricted

1121
01:02:11,040 --> 01:02:14,680
Speaker 2: from public housing, from food stamps, from you know, it

1122
01:02:14,720 --> 01:02:17,160
Speaker 2: depends on the state or on the jurisdiction. But there's

1123
01:02:17,240 --> 01:02:19,600
Speaker 2: all these ways, like you can't do certain professions, be

1124
01:02:19,640 --> 01:02:22,120
Speaker 2: a firefighter, be a barber, but you know, things that

1125
01:02:22,160 --> 01:02:24,760
Speaker 2: are totally irrational. Yeah, and many states you can't be

1126
01:02:24,800 --> 01:02:29,840
Speaker 2: a barber and sometimes job yeah yeah, well, oh, you know,

1127
01:02:30,120 --> 01:02:34,000
Speaker 2: scissors could be a violent weapon. So there's so much

1128
01:02:34,360 --> 01:02:38,920
Speaker 2: irrational fear. And in many states it's hard to vote.

1129
01:02:39,560 --> 01:02:41,640
Speaker 2: You know, some argue that the termine the two thousand

1130
01:02:41,720 --> 01:02:43,640
Speaker 2: presidential election. I don't want to get into that, but

1131
01:02:44,120 --> 01:02:48,320
Speaker 2: you know, there's a lot of people in a number

1132
01:02:48,320 --> 01:02:50,320
Speaker 2: of states where you can't vote for certain of a

1133
01:02:50,440 --> 01:02:53,040
Speaker 2: year's even potentially for life, when you have a felony

1134
01:02:53,240 --> 01:02:55,840
Speaker 2: record in the past. Most other countries you can vote

1135
01:02:55,840 --> 01:02:57,840
Speaker 2: while you're incarcerated, which, by the way, you can do

1136
01:02:57,960 --> 01:03:01,680
Speaker 2: in Maine, Vermont, and DC those the three jurisdictions with

1137
01:03:01,720 --> 01:03:04,360
Speaker 2: the tiny populations. But let me say this what we've

1138
01:03:04,360 --> 01:03:07,400
Speaker 2: done at Georgetown in our programs through the Prisons of

1139
01:03:07,520 --> 01:03:11,640
Speaker 2: Justice Initiative, and then we've had two re entry programs.

1140
01:03:12,040 --> 01:03:15,280
Speaker 2: One is called the Pivot program, so you pivot, you know,

1141
01:03:15,520 --> 01:03:19,600
Speaker 2: change direction and that's in business and entrepreneurship. It's a

1142
01:03:19,600 --> 01:03:22,760
Speaker 2: ten month program, fully paid in partnership with the DC government.

1143
01:03:23,520 --> 01:03:26,920
Speaker 2: We've had we're now on our eighth cohort, eighth year

1144
01:03:27,640 --> 01:03:30,040
Speaker 2: a year, yeah, so it's a year. It's a ten

1145
01:03:30,080 --> 01:03:32,040
Speaker 2: month program, so it's every year we started.

1146
01:03:32,520 --> 01:03:34,080
Speaker 1: It's a year of the program. Yea.

1147
01:03:34,440 --> 01:03:37,240
Speaker 2: Each cohort is a different group of people. And then

1148
01:03:37,680 --> 01:03:39,040
Speaker 2: we have a paralegal program.

1149
01:03:40,000 --> 01:03:42,680
Speaker 1: You're on your eighth of the pivot yeah, yeah, and

1150
01:03:42,720 --> 01:03:43,800
Speaker 1: what are the results?

1151
01:03:43,920 --> 01:03:44,920
Speaker 3: Well, I'm going to get to that.

1152
01:03:45,000 --> 01:03:47,520
Speaker 2: And then we've got six cohorts that we've had so

1153
01:03:47,600 --> 01:03:50,240
Speaker 2: far of our paralegal program, so six years of that

1154
01:03:50,560 --> 01:03:54,240
Speaker 2: and that's a six month fully paid program in paralegal studies.

1155
01:03:55,160 --> 01:03:59,360
Speaker 2: Combined with those pivot and paralegal programs, we've had one

1156
01:03:59,440 --> 01:04:05,000
Speaker 2: hundred and fifty graduates. One is back in prison out

1157
01:04:05,040 --> 01:04:08,200
Speaker 2: of one hundred and fifty. The national rate is seventy percent.

1158
01:04:08,800 --> 01:04:10,360
Speaker 2: We are under one percent.

1159
01:04:10,480 --> 01:04:13,439
Speaker 1: The national recidivism, right, yeah, is seventy percent. That's right,

1160
01:04:13,640 --> 01:04:17,080
Speaker 1: meaning within three years people are back someone released will

1161
01:04:17,120 --> 01:04:19,400
Speaker 1: be back in prison. That's seven out of ten.

1162
01:04:19,400 --> 01:04:19,880
Speaker 3: That's right.

1163
01:04:20,360 --> 01:04:22,440
Speaker 1: We are one out of one hundred and fifty one

1164
01:04:22,480 --> 01:04:24,640
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty that's right.

1165
01:04:24,760 --> 01:04:30,080
Speaker 2: So what this ninety three percent have jobs within three months.

1166
01:04:31,320 --> 01:04:37,560
Speaker 2: Some have started their own businesses. And I'm so proud

1167
01:04:37,600 --> 01:04:39,680
Speaker 2: of them because I know them, I care about them,

1168
01:04:39,720 --> 01:04:43,480
Speaker 2: I love them. But I'm also happy to say that

1169
01:04:43,560 --> 01:04:45,919
Speaker 2: this shows that it can work. In other words, people

1170
01:04:46,000 --> 01:04:50,880
Speaker 2: are capable of doing making good choices and having good outcomes.

1171
01:04:50,880 --> 01:04:55,840
Speaker 1: And I cannot go back to the pragmatic what is

1172
01:04:55,880 --> 01:05:01,760
Speaker 1: the What is the financial benefit of taking somebody who's

1173
01:05:01,880 --> 01:05:06,560
Speaker 1: costing society fifty to seventy thousand dollars a year and

1174
01:05:06,600 --> 01:05:12,640
Speaker 1: they are now part of society, buying homes, paying property packses,

1175
01:05:12,720 --> 01:05:18,320
Speaker 1: paying income taxes, paying into the Social Security administration. It's

1176
01:05:18,400 --> 01:05:21,520
Speaker 1: I mean it literally is if it costs somebody, If

1177
01:05:21,520 --> 01:05:24,320
Speaker 1: it costs fifty thousand to keep somebody locked up, and

1178
01:05:24,360 --> 01:05:28,960
Speaker 1: then you turn around and somebody's contributing positively twenty thousand

1179
01:05:29,040 --> 01:05:33,840
Speaker 1: dollars in taxes to society, that is a seventy thousand

1180
01:05:33,920 --> 01:05:36,680
Speaker 1: dollars a year. Pragmatically, we're not even talking about the

1181
01:05:36,720 --> 01:05:40,840
Speaker 1: human side. That is seventy thousand dollars per person per

1182
01:05:40,920 --> 01:05:46,400
Speaker 1: year times one hundred and fifty bill Yeah, actually right,

1183
01:05:46,600 --> 01:05:49,640
Speaker 1: that's it at times one hundred and fifty. That is

1184
01:05:51,680 --> 01:05:57,880
Speaker 1: twelve and a half million annually positive save to just

1185
01:05:58,840 --> 01:06:00,800
Speaker 1: that one community, these callers.

1186
01:06:02,120 --> 01:06:05,800
Speaker 2: It's staggering, but it's also saggering. It's also easy in

1187
01:06:05,840 --> 01:06:09,360
Speaker 2: the sense that it's cheap. It makes perfect sense economically,

1188
01:06:10,480 --> 01:06:11,080
Speaker 2: and we just.

1189
01:06:11,000 --> 01:06:14,120
Speaker 1: Got to get over our sense of they don't deserve it.

1190
01:06:14,160 --> 01:06:16,280
Speaker 1: They got to be punished, but we got to get

1191
01:06:16,280 --> 01:06:19,000
Speaker 1: to our sense of what's right for society. And they

1192
01:06:19,160 --> 01:06:21,720
Speaker 1: are being punished. Their freedom has been taken. Children are

1193
01:06:21,720 --> 01:06:25,400
Speaker 1: being punished. Their children are being punished, but they are

1194
01:06:25,480 --> 01:06:28,800
Speaker 1: being punished again. It's a difference in a pardon and forgiveness.

1195
01:06:28,800 --> 01:06:32,200
Speaker 1: We're not saying it harden them now, We're just saying

1196
01:06:32,240 --> 01:06:34,800
Speaker 1: forgive them and let's make society better with them. If

1197
01:06:34,840 --> 01:06:36,120
Speaker 1: there's a better answer, that's right.

1198
01:06:37,240 --> 01:06:41,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so I believe strongly that again through this

1199
01:06:41,920 --> 01:06:44,920
Speaker 2: bizarre route that I've taken that started with Marty and

1200
01:06:45,080 --> 01:06:48,040
Speaker 2: then went to wrongful convictions and then started going into prisons,

1201
01:06:48,640 --> 01:06:53,480
Speaker 2: that I've been able to see a magic formula that

1202
01:06:54,360 --> 01:06:57,280
Speaker 2: with proper support and a lot of this, all I mean,

1203
01:06:57,320 --> 01:06:59,600
Speaker 2: all this depends on philanthropy. Everything I do, and I've

1204
01:06:59,600 --> 01:07:01,840
Speaker 2: got four nonprofits, and I have to raise every penny

1205
01:07:01,840 --> 01:07:03,560
Speaker 2: of it, and it all depends on people who care

1206
01:07:04,040 --> 01:07:07,040
Speaker 2: and who see the good that's created and believe that,

1207
01:07:07,200 --> 01:07:07,960
Speaker 2: you know, this is a better way.

1208
01:07:07,960 --> 01:07:10,080
Speaker 3: We don't get, you know, government funding.

1209
01:07:10,160 --> 01:07:12,520
Speaker 2: We have some small grants in here and there, but

1210
01:07:12,560 --> 01:07:15,200
Speaker 2: it's really donor based philanthropy five oh one C three

1211
01:07:15,280 --> 01:07:18,480
Speaker 2: funding that allows us to do this work that ultimately

1212
01:07:18,520 --> 01:07:21,520
Speaker 2: saves taxpayers, you know, like you said, millions of dollars

1213
01:07:21,560 --> 01:07:22,480
Speaker 2: and creates a lot.

1214
01:07:22,320 --> 01:07:24,600
Speaker 3: Of good and beautiful stories of redemption.

1215
01:07:28,240 --> 01:07:43,320
Speaker 1: We'll be right back. You alluded to the Frederick Douglass Project,

1216
01:07:43,360 --> 01:07:49,240
Speaker 1: and I wanted to give you a quick opportunity. It's

1217
01:07:49,240 --> 01:07:51,680
Speaker 1: built on a pretty simple idea of people change when

1218
01:07:51,760 --> 01:07:55,880
Speaker 1: distance appears, which I found kind of interesting. That's that's

1219
01:07:55,920 --> 01:07:58,440
Speaker 1: really interesting because I think that could be even multi

1220
01:07:58,800 --> 01:08:06,880
Speaker 1: layered itself to disappears, distance disappears and what actually happens

1221
01:08:06,880 --> 01:08:10,080
Speaker 1: when someone sits from the outside across from someone inside

1222
01:08:10,080 --> 01:08:14,360
Speaker 1: of prison. And I want to also offer the opportunity

1223
01:08:14,400 --> 01:08:18,479
Speaker 1: when we talk about distance disappearing not only from people

1224
01:08:18,560 --> 01:08:24,719
Speaker 1: working with folks who are incarcerated, but also when family

1225
01:08:24,760 --> 01:08:27,240
Speaker 1: is able to visit and that distance disappears.

1226
01:08:27,439 --> 01:08:33,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, for most people when they get incarcerated, they

1227
01:08:33,960 --> 01:08:36,680
Speaker 2: might as well go to Mars. They're so cut off

1228
01:08:36,680 --> 01:08:40,519
Speaker 2: from society. They might have some family visits, but frankly

1229
01:08:40,560 --> 01:08:42,720
Speaker 2: those are often few and far between. It's really hard

1230
01:08:42,720 --> 01:08:45,000
Speaker 2: to visit prison. They're far away, people are poor, they

1231
01:08:45,040 --> 01:08:45,800
Speaker 2: can't get there.

1232
01:08:45,840 --> 01:08:49,680
Speaker 1: Lots of prisons have found that contraband gets into the

1233
01:08:49,680 --> 01:08:52,320
Speaker 1: prisons through those visits. In so many prisons in the

1234
01:08:52,400 --> 01:08:56,800
Speaker 1: United States have just suspended all of the family visits. Unfortunately.

1235
01:08:56,920 --> 01:08:57,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, which.

1236
01:08:59,520 --> 01:09:03,920
Speaker 2: Because that's the story that prisons will give you about contraband.

1237
01:09:03,920 --> 01:09:06,840
Speaker 2: But the vast, vast majority of contraband comes through guards,

1238
01:09:06,880 --> 01:09:09,920
Speaker 2: from the guards who are corrupted. I'm sorry I misstated

1239
01:09:09,960 --> 01:09:12,720
Speaker 2: that it's no.

1240
01:09:12,840 --> 01:09:16,519
Speaker 1: The argument is that contraband comes in so the prisons

1241
01:09:16,560 --> 01:09:19,200
Speaker 1: have used this as a way to spend So when

1242
01:09:19,240 --> 01:09:21,880
Speaker 1: you say people on Mars and then they have to

1243
01:09:21,920 --> 01:09:26,519
Speaker 1: pay for phone calls, they literally the distances you might

1244
01:09:26,520 --> 01:09:28,559
Speaker 1: as well be on one. Yes, that's all the Federal

1245
01:09:29,000 --> 01:09:29,599
Speaker 1: Project says.

1246
01:09:29,720 --> 01:09:33,960
Speaker 2: We break down the barriers, break down the distance, and

1247
01:09:34,040 --> 01:09:38,320
Speaker 2: we create proximity. We bring people inside. So it's not

1248
01:09:38,400 --> 01:09:42,160
Speaker 2: just the physical distance, it's like emotional distance because if

1249
01:09:43,479 --> 01:09:46,840
Speaker 2: maybe like your average listener who probably has never visited prison,

1250
01:09:47,240 --> 01:09:49,800
Speaker 2: maybe has had a family member incarcerated, maybe not, but

1251
01:09:51,040 --> 01:09:54,519
Speaker 2: doesn't really know more than what's on TV shows, and

1252
01:09:54,680 --> 01:09:57,559
Speaker 2: probably has a sense that, you know, there's like prisons

1253
01:09:57,560 --> 01:10:00,000
Speaker 2: are scary and people are coming running around with shanks,

1254
01:10:00,080 --> 01:10:02,920
Speaker 2: and that it's you know, it's sort of like dangerous place,

1255
01:10:03,000 --> 01:10:07,000
Speaker 2: and that couldn't be further from the truth. You've got

1256
01:10:07,000 --> 01:10:10,080
Speaker 2: a lot of people who've again done bad things, made

1257
01:10:10,120 --> 01:10:14,120
Speaker 2: bad choices, but are trying to get on a better path.

1258
01:10:14,280 --> 01:10:17,040
Speaker 2: And what the Frederick Douglas Project does is it brings

1259
01:10:17,600 --> 01:10:21,000
Speaker 2: members of free society into prisons and jails all around

1260
01:10:21,000 --> 01:10:24,040
Speaker 2: the country. We're in we're about to be in our

1261
01:10:24,080 --> 01:10:27,000
Speaker 2: seventeenth state, and we're in about thirty facilities, and we're

1262
01:10:27,040 --> 01:10:31,200
Speaker 2: spreading quickly, and we're coast to coast. I could name

1263
01:10:31,240 --> 01:10:33,680
Speaker 2: all our states, but really like from New England to

1264
01:10:34,080 --> 01:10:38,120
Speaker 2: you know, Florida, Louisiana, Mississippi. We've been departure and farm

1265
01:10:38,200 --> 01:10:39,839
Speaker 2: into some prisons outside of Jackson.

1266
01:10:41,040 --> 01:10:47,080
Speaker 3: I know you've got off, Yeah, yeah, very tough. We yeah, we're.

1267
01:10:47,000 --> 01:10:49,920
Speaker 2: About to start soon in Texas, but we're we're in California,

1268
01:10:49,960 --> 01:10:52,599
Speaker 2: We're about to start in Arizona, Washington State, and we're

1269
01:10:52,600 --> 01:10:59,360
Speaker 2: in Idaho and and a lot of the Midwest to Illinois, Ohio, Michigan,

1270
01:10:59,479 --> 01:11:03,320
Speaker 2: so we really in all different areas and we bring

1271
01:11:03,360 --> 01:11:06,120
Speaker 2: people inside for about a two to three hour experience,

1272
01:11:06,200 --> 01:11:08,320
Speaker 2: the heart of which there's a visit of the prison,

1273
01:11:08,360 --> 01:11:10,160
Speaker 2: you get ce cells, but the core of it is

1274
01:11:10,200 --> 01:11:15,920
Speaker 2: sitting down with incarcerated people, men and women, and talking

1275
01:11:15,960 --> 01:11:18,480
Speaker 2: with people. And we have a set of conversation starters

1276
01:11:19,400 --> 01:11:23,400
Speaker 2: framing the first of big group conversation introductions and then

1277
01:11:23,439 --> 01:11:25,920
Speaker 2: small groups where people go really deep into who they are.

1278
01:11:25,960 --> 01:11:28,120
Speaker 2: It's not about crime, it's not about prison, It's about

1279
01:11:28,120 --> 01:11:30,439
Speaker 2: who we are as people. And let me tell you,

1280
01:11:30,479 --> 01:11:33,400
Speaker 2: when people walk out after those experiences, they are changed,

1281
01:11:33,439 --> 01:11:36,800
Speaker 2: they are moved. The outside participants as we call them,

1282
01:11:36,800 --> 01:11:39,280
Speaker 2: we don't use the word inmate. So the outside participants

1283
01:11:39,320 --> 01:11:42,000
Speaker 2: come out blown away by the people they met, by

1284
01:11:43,000 --> 01:11:47,080
Speaker 2: just the richness and complexity of the conversation types. Just

1285
01:11:47,160 --> 01:11:50,639
Speaker 2: everything melts away, and then the inside people suddenly they

1286
01:11:50,680 --> 01:11:52,040
Speaker 2: have purpose, they have hope.

1287
01:11:52,200 --> 01:11:54,200
Speaker 1: They realize there's a society out there that's.

1288
01:11:54,040 --> 01:11:56,400
Speaker 2: Going to welcome them when they come home, that they

1289
01:11:56,479 --> 01:12:00,719
Speaker 2: might have job opportunities, that they're capable, that they're worth something.

1290
01:12:00,760 --> 01:12:02,439
Speaker 2: I cannot tell you how many times I've had someone

1291
01:12:02,479 --> 01:12:06,200
Speaker 2: say I feel human today, and then they call their

1292
01:12:06,240 --> 01:12:10,280
Speaker 2: loved ones, their spouse or their children, and you know,

1293
01:12:10,360 --> 01:12:13,320
Speaker 2: it creates this connection to the outside world that gives

1294
01:12:13,320 --> 01:12:15,679
Speaker 2: them meaning, gives them purpose. And so it's a beautiful

1295
01:12:15,720 --> 01:12:18,320
Speaker 2: program for everyone who participates.

1296
01:12:18,360 --> 01:12:19,519
Speaker 3: And the amazing part of it.

1297
01:12:19,840 --> 01:12:22,320
Speaker 2: When I started this, I thought it's going to be

1298
01:12:22,320 --> 01:12:25,960
Speaker 2: hard to get correctional officials to trust me enough in

1299
01:12:26,080 --> 01:12:28,760
Speaker 2: my program enough to let us in. Well, now they're

1300
01:12:28,800 --> 01:12:32,200
Speaker 2: calling me they want this program because it works so well.

1301
01:12:32,560 --> 01:12:36,200
Speaker 2: I've never had a program get canceled even though they couldn't,

1302
01:12:36,240 --> 01:12:40,120
Speaker 2: you know, like that if something went wrong, and they

1303
01:12:40,160 --> 01:12:43,960
Speaker 2: realize that it makes their prisons easier to run because

1304
01:12:43,960 --> 01:12:49,040
Speaker 2: people are more upbeat, they're doing positive things, travel exactly exactly.

1305
01:12:48,840 --> 01:12:51,760
Speaker 1: So feel more like human beings, and they're more energized

1306
01:12:51,760 --> 01:12:55,200
Speaker 1: and hopeful. They're less likely to do something stupid. Yeah.

1307
01:12:55,439 --> 01:12:57,799
Speaker 3: So our matra in that program is common humanity.

1308
01:12:57,840 --> 01:13:00,479
Speaker 2: And that's something emphasized in all my programs and my work,

1309
01:13:00,520 --> 01:13:01,559
Speaker 2: which is that we need to.

1310
01:13:01,520 --> 01:13:03,000
Speaker 3: Recognize the common humanity.

1311
01:13:03,000 --> 01:13:05,920
Speaker 2: We need to support each other as human beings, regardless

1312
01:13:05,920 --> 01:13:08,599
Speaker 2: of where we've been, regardless of what we've done. That

1313
01:13:08,680 --> 01:13:13,080
Speaker 2: we need to rise above these categories that society has

1314
01:13:13,840 --> 01:13:18,400
Speaker 2: imposed and regularly reinforces on us and to achieve something

1315
01:13:18,439 --> 01:13:20,240
Speaker 2: better as human beings together.

1316
01:13:20,840 --> 01:13:25,000
Speaker 1: So once someone from the outside, I think you call

1317
01:13:25,080 --> 01:13:25,799
Speaker 1: them from the outside.

1318
01:13:25,840 --> 01:13:26,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, outside for the world.

1319
01:13:27,280 --> 01:13:29,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like I'm talking about water World or something.

1320
01:13:29,720 --> 01:13:34,880
Speaker 1: But from want somebody from the outside the system sees

1321
01:13:34,920 --> 01:13:38,640
Speaker 1: people inside the system, it's hard to stay a bystander.

1322
01:13:39,520 --> 01:13:43,439
Speaker 1: What does that realization ask the rescue of us today?

1323
01:13:43,560 --> 01:13:45,640
Speaker 1: What does that ask of our listeners? What does that

1324
01:13:45,760 --> 01:13:49,040
Speaker 1: ask of the army and normal folks? What what does

1325
01:13:49,080 --> 01:13:53,320
Speaker 1: that realization from what you've seen in the program you've created,

1326
01:13:54,760 --> 01:13:55,439
Speaker 1: need to say to.

1327
01:13:55,439 --> 01:13:57,400
Speaker 2: The rest of Yes, yeah, no, I have a clear

1328
01:13:57,600 --> 01:13:59,519
Speaker 2: and simple answer to that.

1329
01:13:59,640 --> 01:14:01,920
Speaker 3: So I'll say it in two parts.

1330
01:14:01,920 --> 01:14:04,880
Speaker 2: One is, if there's ever an opportunity to visit a

1331
01:14:04,920 --> 01:14:07,960
Speaker 2: prison through the Frederick Douglas Project for Justice, please join us.

1332
01:14:08,000 --> 01:14:10,839
Speaker 2: Go to Douglas Project dot org, look at our sites

1333
01:14:11,439 --> 01:14:14,439
Speaker 2: and join a visit if there's one in proximity to

1334
01:14:14,439 --> 01:14:18,000
Speaker 2: where you live, and then you'll have that experience firsthand.

1335
01:14:18,080 --> 01:14:20,000
Speaker 4: Actually one thought I had in real time, Bill, this

1336
01:14:20,000 --> 01:14:22,439
Speaker 4: would be great for our army activations, So for our

1337
01:14:22,600 --> 01:14:24,560
Speaker 4: service clubs for lost and six around the country. I

1338
01:14:24,640 --> 01:14:26,519
Speaker 4: was telling you in the car, it'd be a great

1339
01:14:26,520 --> 01:14:28,920
Speaker 4: thing for these service clubs to do as a group.

1340
01:14:29,360 --> 01:14:31,080
Speaker 4: I love going there together absolutely.

1341
01:14:31,120 --> 01:14:31,320
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1342
01:14:31,320 --> 01:14:33,559
Speaker 3: Anyway, yeah, we love bringing full groups in too.

1343
01:14:33,680 --> 01:14:37,080
Speaker 2: So that's a great idea organizationally to do to link

1344
01:14:37,160 --> 01:14:40,599
Speaker 2: us together. But for those who can or who won't

1345
01:14:40,640 --> 01:14:45,160
Speaker 2: for any reason, although little footnote, I have brought in

1346
01:14:45,160 --> 01:14:47,360
Speaker 2: a number of people who've been victims of crimes.

1347
01:14:47,000 --> 01:14:49,360
Speaker 3: And that's really powerful because that leads to.

1348
01:14:49,920 --> 01:14:55,560
Speaker 2: This incredible realization that is liberating for them as victims

1349
01:14:55,960 --> 01:15:00,000
Speaker 2: to achieve that type of forgiveness and to understand people

1350
01:15:00,080 --> 01:15:03,439
Speaker 2: bull who even have committed harm it's not necessarily their

1351
01:15:03,479 --> 01:15:04,800
Speaker 2: own perpetrator in their case.

1352
01:15:04,880 --> 01:15:09,280
Speaker 1: But what is it for an incarcerated person to watch

1353
01:15:09,880 --> 01:15:14,360
Speaker 1: a victim of crime. It's moving forgiveness that incarcerated person

1354
01:15:14,439 --> 01:15:17,080
Speaker 1: must be like, Okay, it is possible that I could

1355
01:15:17,120 --> 01:15:19,000
Speaker 1: be worthy for society.

1356
01:15:19,040 --> 01:15:23,759
Speaker 2: Again, let me tell you, incarcerating people are not supposed

1357
01:15:23,760 --> 01:15:25,400
Speaker 2: to show emotion in prison, especially men.

1358
01:15:25,760 --> 01:15:28,080
Speaker 3: Right, there's a whole that's a whole toughness.

1359
01:15:28,120 --> 01:15:30,599
Speaker 2: It's a whole thing, right, And I've seen a lot

1360
01:15:30,640 --> 01:15:33,559
Speaker 2: of really tough guys cry in prison. I mean, you'd

1361
01:15:33,560 --> 01:15:36,240
Speaker 2: think there were chopping onions all day long when I

1362
01:15:36,280 --> 01:15:40,200
Speaker 2: go in there. I mean, we're talking heavy emotions because

1363
01:15:40,200 --> 01:15:45,879
Speaker 2: it has to do with harm caused, with forgiveness, with redemption.

1364
01:15:46,560 --> 01:15:50,280
Speaker 2: They go really deep inside of themselves and.

1365
01:15:50,439 --> 01:15:53,880
Speaker 1: I can't imagine a more mental experience. Yeah, it's watching

1366
01:15:53,920 --> 01:15:57,320
Speaker 1: the transformation of a grown up human being who's been

1367
01:15:57,360 --> 01:15:58,200
Speaker 1: through it. That's right.

1368
01:15:59,360 --> 01:16:01,840
Speaker 2: So let me get the general answer now that I

1369
01:16:01,880 --> 01:16:04,880
Speaker 2: would love everyone who's listening to think about, which is

1370
01:16:06,000 --> 01:16:08,719
Speaker 2: picture somebody you know in your life, and it could

1371
01:16:08,720 --> 01:16:11,400
Speaker 2: be a brother or sister, or a good friend, or

1372
01:16:11,439 --> 01:16:15,599
Speaker 2: somebody who struggled, somebody who has problems with addiction, has

1373
01:16:15,600 --> 01:16:18,759
Speaker 2: made bad choices, has just put themselves in the wrong

1374
01:16:18,800 --> 01:16:22,679
Speaker 2: situation with people and just done stupid things, stupid shit.

1375
01:16:22,760 --> 01:16:25,920
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, my best friend died of an

1376
01:16:25,960 --> 01:16:28,800
Speaker 2: overdose this past summer. I'm still devastated by and don't

1377
01:16:28,800 --> 01:16:32,680
Speaker 2: know how it happened and can't believe it. But I

1378
01:16:32,760 --> 01:16:37,120
Speaker 2: want you to think about somebody who made bad choices,

1379
01:16:37,200 --> 01:16:39,280
Speaker 2: the kind of person you just love, but you just

1380
01:16:39,320 --> 01:16:45,280
Speaker 2: think why why? And imagine that person going to prison

1381
01:16:45,479 --> 01:16:47,880
Speaker 2: making a decision that crosses the line of the law.

1382
01:16:47,920 --> 01:16:50,360
Speaker 2: They get caught, they go to prison, would you stop

1383
01:16:50,400 --> 01:16:54,599
Speaker 2: loving them? Imagine it's your kid. I mean so many people.

1384
01:16:54,600 --> 01:16:56,519
Speaker 2: They have parents, they have moms dads who love them.

1385
01:16:56,640 --> 01:17:00,680
Speaker 2: Would you stop loving them? Would you want them to

1386
01:17:00,680 --> 01:17:03,160
Speaker 2: be mistreated? Would you want them to be abused? Would

1387
01:17:03,160 --> 01:17:05,639
Speaker 2: you want them to suffer? No, you would want them

1388
01:17:05,680 --> 01:17:08,439
Speaker 2: to rehab. You would want them to get better. You

1389
01:17:08,479 --> 01:17:10,920
Speaker 2: would want them to be treated in a way that

1390
01:17:10,960 --> 01:17:13,640
Speaker 2: allows them to turn their life around. So what I

1391
01:17:13,680 --> 01:17:16,360
Speaker 2: say is I think of every incarcerated person in the

1392
01:17:16,439 --> 01:17:20,000
Speaker 2: United States that way. I think of them all like

1393
01:17:20,040 --> 01:17:22,080
Speaker 2: they're my brother, sister, or my best friend.

1394
01:17:22,479 --> 01:17:22,920
Speaker 1: Well they are.

1395
01:17:24,040 --> 01:17:24,360
Speaker 3: They are.

1396
01:17:24,920 --> 01:17:27,800
Speaker 2: That's right, and I want That's what I try to spread.

1397
01:17:27,840 --> 01:17:30,599
Speaker 2: If I had to generalize it to one message, it's

1398
01:17:30,760 --> 01:17:33,559
Speaker 2: care about all incarcerated people like they're your own brother

1399
01:17:33,600 --> 01:17:36,000
Speaker 2: and sister, and then treat them that way and support

1400
01:17:36,080 --> 01:17:38,800
Speaker 2: programs that will treat them that way, because.

1401
01:17:38,479 --> 01:17:39,840
Speaker 3: We will all be better off.

1402
01:17:39,880 --> 01:17:42,240
Speaker 2: We will reduce crime and reduce costs, and we will

1403
01:17:42,280 --> 01:17:45,200
Speaker 2: be a much more healing and loving society.

1404
01:17:45,240 --> 01:17:45,800
Speaker 3: If we can do that.

1405
01:17:45,880 --> 01:17:48,040
Speaker 2: And you know what, it might sound like a pipe dream,

1406
01:17:48,080 --> 01:17:52,400
Speaker 2: but it's not like it works when others are doing

1407
01:17:52,479 --> 01:17:54,800
Speaker 2: it like it's doable. We need to scale it and

1408
01:17:54,840 --> 01:17:58,439
Speaker 2: do it more. But we actually have the solution at

1409
01:17:58,479 --> 01:17:59,160
Speaker 2: our fingertists.

1410
01:17:59,160 --> 01:18:00,000
Speaker 3: We need to just.

1411
01:18:00,160 --> 01:18:02,200
Speaker 1: When you put it on that word parsonal level, it

1412
01:18:02,240 --> 01:18:04,880
Speaker 1: is profound. I did what you asked me to do

1413
01:18:04,880 --> 01:18:07,200
Speaker 1: as you were talking, and I thought about somebody who

1414
01:18:07,200 --> 01:18:10,320
Speaker 1: I love very very much, who has struggled with bad

1415
01:18:10,360 --> 01:18:15,120
Speaker 1: decisions but as a really good person, and the last

1416
01:18:15,160 --> 01:18:17,120
Speaker 1: thing I want them to do is end up in prison.

1417
01:18:17,160 --> 01:18:20,880
Speaker 1: But if they did, I would, I would do everything

1418
01:18:20,920 --> 01:18:26,600
Speaker 1: I could to support the revolentation. And if it's okay

1419
01:18:26,640 --> 01:18:29,320
Speaker 1: for that human being, why not for all the others.

1420
01:18:30,280 --> 01:18:31,439
Speaker 1: And that's what you're saying.

1421
01:18:31,280 --> 01:18:33,599
Speaker 3: That's exactly what I'm saying. And I didn't just.

1422
01:18:33,560 --> 01:18:36,880
Speaker 1: And in that context, how can you not support that?

1423
01:18:37,400 --> 01:18:38,479
Speaker 3: Yeah?

1424
01:18:38,760 --> 01:18:43,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I didn't just sort of have this from

1425
01:18:43,920 --> 01:18:46,760
Speaker 2: the beginning. I didn't just sort of invent it. It's

1426
01:18:46,800 --> 01:18:50,479
Speaker 2: not some slogan. It's literally something that I've worked through,

1427
01:18:51,840 --> 01:18:56,360
Speaker 2: painstakingly in a torturing myself, trying to grapple with these

1428
01:18:56,400 --> 01:18:59,120
Speaker 2: really hard questions like I'm in a room with thirty

1429
01:18:59,160 --> 01:19:01,479
Speaker 2: people who took a lot. I mean that's heavy. You

1430
01:19:01,520 --> 01:19:05,200
Speaker 2: know that weighs on me. Yet I love them and

1431
01:19:05,840 --> 01:19:09,840
Speaker 2: I try to understand it all and balance it all

1432
01:19:10,080 --> 01:19:14,120
Speaker 2: and think about it and come up with a solution

1433
01:19:14,360 --> 01:19:18,559
Speaker 2: that will improve their lives and improve us as a society.

1434
01:19:18,600 --> 01:19:20,439
Speaker 3: And you know what, I'm a much better person for

1435
01:19:20,520 --> 01:19:20,880
Speaker 3: it too.

1436
01:19:21,640 --> 01:19:25,639
Speaker 1: I think that's why your story, more honestly, is so compelling,

1437
01:19:25,960 --> 01:19:33,000
Speaker 1: because you're not some guy standing on the corner wave

1438
01:19:33,080 --> 01:19:36,920
Speaker 1: in some flag with a bullhorn, screaming society for being

1439
01:19:36,920 --> 01:19:39,719
Speaker 1: that unfair. No, you're not doing it at all. No,

1440
01:19:39,960 --> 01:19:42,880
Speaker 1: you're simply trying to support the broken. That's right.

1441
01:19:43,800 --> 01:19:47,479
Speaker 4: More than simply like you built a really comprehensive solution

1442
01:19:47,600 --> 01:19:51,000
Speaker 4: for one human being from exoneration in the prison to

1443
01:19:51,080 --> 01:19:54,200
Speaker 4: re entry. I mean, it's remarkable. It is comprehensive you've

1444
01:19:54,200 --> 01:19:57,120
Speaker 4: been as one human being. What's also remarkable is it

1445
01:19:57,200 --> 01:20:05,439
Speaker 4: started defending the unjustly incarcerated and now are defending the

1446
01:20:05,520 --> 01:20:06,880
Speaker 4: incarcerated justly.

1447
01:20:07,280 --> 01:20:10,439
Speaker 1: Right, crazy, Yeah, Marty involved.

1448
01:20:10,800 --> 01:20:12,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, Marty's on the board of the Douglas Project. Of

1449
01:20:12,880 --> 01:20:15,800
Speaker 3: course we work together exactly. Yeah.

1450
01:20:15,920 --> 01:20:19,760
Speaker 2: No, because you know, many xuneries like Marty, they through

1451
01:20:19,760 --> 01:20:22,280
Speaker 2: their own experience, they saw, you know, well they live,

1452
01:20:22,920 --> 01:20:26,760
Speaker 2: they made bad choices, and they still support them and

1453
01:20:26,800 --> 01:20:28,880
Speaker 2: they want to see them getting free as well and

1454
01:20:29,040 --> 01:20:30,400
Speaker 2: doing good, the right thing.

1455
01:20:30,320 --> 01:20:32,720
Speaker 1: When they're out. Good people do bad things all day,

1456
01:20:32,760 --> 01:20:37,000
Speaker 1: every day. And if we really are the country and

1457
01:20:37,080 --> 01:20:43,160
Speaker 1: the society and candidly the culture, the Judeo Christian culture

1458
01:20:43,200 --> 01:20:46,640
Speaker 1: that we claim ourselves to be, redemption has to be

1459
01:20:46,680 --> 01:20:48,880
Speaker 1: a part of this. And if you can come up

1460
01:20:48,920 --> 01:20:53,000
Speaker 1: with ways to creat programs that people can actually earn

1461
01:20:53,280 --> 01:20:56,920
Speaker 1: redemption and rear inner society from both the human and

1462
01:20:57,120 --> 01:21:06,840
Speaker 1: pragmatic when in situation, you know, I just can't understand

1463
01:21:07,360 --> 01:21:15,240
Speaker 1: how we can't start listening to this. Yeah well one of.

1464
01:21:15,240 --> 01:21:18,360
Speaker 2: You, Yeah, yeah, Well, I'm trying to create programs that

1465
01:21:18,400 --> 01:21:22,040
Speaker 2: are scalable, you know, And I'm trying to build teams

1466
01:21:22,640 --> 01:21:26,000
Speaker 2: in all my programs and organizations who are devoted and

1467
01:21:26,040 --> 01:21:30,400
Speaker 2: who get the message and support the cause and are really,

1468
01:21:30,640 --> 01:21:33,280
Speaker 2: you know, as committed as I am. So it's by

1469
01:21:33,280 --> 01:21:38,080
Speaker 2: no means just me, and I'm trying to set them

1470
01:21:38,160 --> 01:21:40,200
Speaker 2: up so that they will survive me. And if I

1471
01:21:40,200 --> 01:21:43,599
Speaker 2: get hit by a bus, you know tomorrow that everything

1472
01:21:43,600 --> 01:21:46,800
Speaker 2: will be okay and the mission will continue. You know,

1473
01:21:47,200 --> 01:21:48,920
Speaker 2: as I said, a lot of it depends on on

1474
01:21:48,960 --> 01:21:52,920
Speaker 2: philanthropy and on donors. I realize also that there's a

1475
01:21:52,960 --> 01:21:57,320
Speaker 2: paradox here, which is especially for an army of normal folk,

1476
01:21:57,360 --> 01:21:59,920
Speaker 2: which is that you know, I do have fancy degree

1477
01:22:01,080 --> 01:22:03,400
Speaker 2: and you know, I sometimes can play those up. I

1478
01:22:03,400 --> 01:22:06,400
Speaker 2: can turn up you know, Yale, UC Berkeley, Georgetown and

1479
01:22:06,400 --> 01:22:09,000
Speaker 2: all that. I can go into these fancy crowds. I

1480
01:22:09,040 --> 01:22:11,479
Speaker 2: was also, you know, the lead tennis player and played

1481
01:22:11,600 --> 01:22:14,120
Speaker 2: you know, at a closter pro level with Evon Lindell's

1482
01:22:14,400 --> 01:22:16,479
Speaker 2: practice partner when he was winning Grand slams.

1483
01:22:16,479 --> 01:22:19,599
Speaker 3: And I can play up the country club crowd.

1484
01:22:20,000 --> 01:22:21,960
Speaker 2: But when it comes down to it, where I really

1485
01:22:22,000 --> 01:22:25,559
Speaker 2: find my moral compass is in prison. And that's totally bizarre,

1486
01:22:25,880 --> 01:22:27,760
Speaker 2: and I realized that doesn't make sense. Hopefully after this

1487
01:22:27,800 --> 01:22:29,720
Speaker 2: conversation it makes a little more sense. But when you're

1488
01:22:29,760 --> 01:22:36,640
Speaker 2: around people who have experienced real suffering, real struggle, real redemption,

1489
01:22:37,520 --> 01:22:39,880
Speaker 2: it's very different than just being in a world among

1490
01:22:39,920 --> 01:22:41,960
Speaker 2: privileged people. And I've been in both of those worlds

1491
01:22:42,560 --> 01:22:45,200
Speaker 2: and I benefit from that. I'm not going to, you know,

1492
01:22:45,479 --> 01:22:48,519
Speaker 2: pretend that that's not the case. But where I think

1493
01:22:48,600 --> 01:22:52,840
Speaker 2: I truly find myself and where I've truly grown is

1494
01:22:52,880 --> 01:22:56,640
Speaker 2: through my experience with incarcerated people, and that's something I

1495
01:22:56,680 --> 01:22:57,400
Speaker 2: want to continue.

1496
01:22:57,400 --> 01:22:59,160
Speaker 3: But I also want to spread and I want more.

1497
01:22:59,040 --> 01:23:02,680
Speaker 2: People to have that disposure, to see that beauty and

1498
01:23:03,280 --> 01:23:04,840
Speaker 2: find that magic that I found.

1499
01:23:05,560 --> 01:23:08,719
Speaker 1: We often talk about on the show that the magic

1500
01:23:08,920 --> 01:23:14,559
Speaker 1: in life happens when one's passion collides with opportunity. And

1501
01:23:14,600 --> 01:23:20,320
Speaker 1: your passion probably really fueled by your buddy Marty, and

1502
01:23:20,360 --> 01:23:26,160
Speaker 1: then the opportunity from both your political science background, your

1503
01:23:26,160 --> 01:23:31,040
Speaker 1: academic background and the story of Marty collided at this

1504
01:23:31,240 --> 01:23:37,240
Speaker 1: world of incarcerated people with your passion. And you know, Mark,

1505
01:23:37,640 --> 01:23:40,320
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter about all the degrees and stuff. Sure

1506
01:23:40,360 --> 01:23:42,679
Speaker 1: the pedigree is cool, but none of that really matters.

1507
01:23:42,840 --> 01:23:43,640
Speaker 3: It doesn't matter to me.

1508
01:23:44,840 --> 01:23:48,400
Speaker 1: Does matter is you've become passionate about a need and

1509
01:23:48,439 --> 01:23:51,240
Speaker 1: you figured out ways to fill it. And it feels

1510
01:23:51,280 --> 01:23:53,800
Speaker 1: like every step of your life, from knowing Marty in

1511
01:23:53,840 --> 01:23:58,320
Speaker 1: preschool until this point has led to this work. Yeah,

1512
01:23:59,160 --> 01:24:02,520
Speaker 1: it's just a normal do finding his passion as opportunity

1513
01:24:02,520 --> 01:24:02,920
Speaker 1: and do it.

1514
01:24:03,000 --> 01:24:03,800
Speaker 3: That's how I feel.

1515
01:24:03,880 --> 01:24:06,840
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't have my diplomas up honestly don't

1516
01:24:06,880 --> 01:24:07,880
Speaker 2: give it, but I don't care.

1517
01:24:08,080 --> 01:24:11,120
Speaker 3: It's a piece of paper. To me. What matters is

1518
01:24:11,160 --> 01:24:12,639
Speaker 3: the life experience that I've led.

1519
01:24:12,680 --> 01:24:15,679
Speaker 2: And sure it took me through some fancy places at times,

1520
01:24:15,720 --> 01:24:19,559
Speaker 2: but where I've really developed my moral core and compass

1521
01:24:20,200 --> 01:24:22,640
Speaker 2: is in working with incarcerated people. And I find so

1522
01:24:22,760 --> 01:24:28,880
Speaker 2: much humanity, so much beauty, so much character in them,

1523
01:24:29,479 --> 01:24:32,519
Speaker 2: and that's what I want to spread to people around

1524
01:24:32,520 --> 01:24:33,479
Speaker 2: the country, around the world.

1525
01:24:33,880 --> 01:24:37,880
Speaker 1: Mark Howard Everybody, founding director of the Prisons and Justice

1526
01:24:37,920 --> 01:24:41,280
Speaker 1: Initiative at Georgetown University and founder of the Frederick Douglas

1527
01:24:41,280 --> 01:24:48,599
Speaker 1: Project of Justice, and more importantly, a guy whose story

1528
01:24:48,640 --> 01:24:51,120
Speaker 1: if you hear it and you listen to the data,

1529
01:24:51,400 --> 01:24:54,320
Speaker 1: and you listen to the advice, and you listen to

1530
01:24:54,320 --> 01:24:58,680
Speaker 1: the real world experience, has got a challenge us to

1531
01:24:58,680 --> 01:25:02,960
Speaker 1: think about all this stuff, all prison reform and criminal justice,

1532
01:25:03,160 --> 01:25:08,000
Speaker 1: all of it a little differently, and challenge ourselves to

1533
01:25:08,640 --> 01:25:12,720
Speaker 1: remember what our foundation on our basis is as citizens

1534
01:25:12,760 --> 01:25:15,880
Speaker 1: of this culture and this society, and recognize we can

1535
01:25:15,960 --> 01:25:21,840
Speaker 1: do more. Mark, thanks so much, Thanks for what you do,

1536
01:25:22,000 --> 01:25:24,600
Speaker 1: Thanks for flying into Memphis real quick to share the

1537
01:25:24,640 --> 01:25:28,920
Speaker 1: story with us, and I just got to believe there's

1538
01:25:28,960 --> 01:25:30,680
Speaker 1: more down the road, and so I can't wait to

1539
01:25:30,760 --> 01:25:32,479
Speaker 1: keep in touch with you and hear what's next.

1540
01:25:32,920 --> 01:25:33,680
Speaker 3: I look forward to that.

1541
01:25:33,760 --> 01:25:39,200
Speaker 1: Thank you, Bill really enjoyed the conversation. Thank you, and

1542
01:25:39,280 --> 01:25:42,599
Speaker 1: thank you for joining us this week. If Mark Howard

1543
01:25:42,640 --> 01:25:45,519
Speaker 1: has inspired you in general, or better yet, to take

1544
01:25:45,600 --> 01:25:50,240
Speaker 1: action by bringing making an exoner ree to your university,

1545
01:25:50,880 --> 01:25:55,920
Speaker 1: or visiting a prison with the Frederick Douglas Project, or

1546
01:25:55,960 --> 01:25:58,439
Speaker 1: something else entirely, I'd love to hear about it. You

1547
01:25:58,479 --> 01:26:02,000
Speaker 1: can write me anytime at Bill at normal folks dot us,

1548
01:26:02,000 --> 01:26:05,559
Speaker 1: and I will respond. If you enjoyed this episode, share

1549
01:26:05,560 --> 01:26:08,480
Speaker 1: it with friends and on social subscribe to the podcast,

1550
01:26:08,640 --> 01:26:11,840
Speaker 1: rate it, review it, join the army at normal folks

1551
01:26:11,920 --> 01:26:14,559
Speaker 1: dot us. All of these things that will help us

1552
01:26:14,600 --> 01:26:18,280
Speaker 1: grow an army of normal folks. I'm Bill Cortney. Until

1553
01:26:18,280 --> 01:26:20,120
Speaker 1: next time, do what you can