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Speaker 1: Oh hey, everybody. Episode one on one of the Hunting Collective.

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Speaker 1: I know, probably very anticipated by you the listener, because

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Speaker 1: you you might learn who wins stuff. You might also

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Speaker 1: not learn who wins stuff, so you gotta hang them

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Speaker 1: and listen to know. There's no way to know. Good

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Speaker 1: show for you, man. We had Bryce Andrews, an author,

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Speaker 1: wonderful writer, one of the best writers I've read, and

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Speaker 1: sometime I really enjoyed reading his book Down for the

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Speaker 1: Mountain about living with grizzly bears, the Life and Death

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Speaker 1: of a certain Grizzly Bear. We talked about that. We

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Speaker 1: talked about uh naming animals. We talked about moving from

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Speaker 1: urban environments to the West. We talked about killing and

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Speaker 1: how it makes you feel. You know us, that's what

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Speaker 1: we do. Um And before that, Phil and I went

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Speaker 1: through a bunch of stuff. You're gonna learn about the

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Speaker 1: THHC Book Club, exactly what that's gonna be. We're gonna

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Speaker 1: we're gonna make that a thing here. Pretty soon. Phil

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Speaker 1: went to the Turkey, the n W t F Show,

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Speaker 1: the Convention. That's true, that's true, you in you just

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Speaker 1: you're just fired up, aren't you? Can't wait? He's gonna

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Speaker 1: be a turkey on it pretty soon. It's gonna be great.

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Speaker 1: And we talked about Joaquin Phoenix speech at the Oscars,

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Speaker 1: and I realize that maybe I'm the Joaquin Phoenix of

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Speaker 1: the hunting world. It's hard to take that in. It's

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Speaker 1: hard to know. I when I started off we're recording this,

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Speaker 1: I was really mad at Joaquin Phoenix. But then at

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Speaker 1: the end I had some you'll clearly hear me criticizing

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Speaker 1: myself at the end, Joaquin Phoenis is just a stand

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Speaker 1: in for my inner dialogue. But if that speech change

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Speaker 1: changes your life? What if I what have I become

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Speaker 1: a vegan actor? It's based on self hate. Anyway, a

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Speaker 1: very confusing time here at t HC for me, and

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Speaker 1: so you'll enjoy that. But listen, before we get to that,

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Speaker 1: we gotta what is just go sign up if you

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Speaker 1: if you haven't done this already. Phil started to piss

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Speaker 1: me off. Really, oh man, I'm upset. You're getting a

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Speaker 1: little heated up here. I'm pissed because if you're listening

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Speaker 1: to this and you haven't signed up for First Lights

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Speaker 1: New Zealand Hunt giveaway with Ben O'Brien, then you're just

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Speaker 1: you're you're you're a dummy, and you need to go

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Speaker 1: and do it because it is literally you put your

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Speaker 1: email in the first Light dot com slash t a

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Speaker 1: h R hunt. You put your email in and hit

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Speaker 1: a few buttons whatever click except on the legal stuff,

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Speaker 1: and then you get to go on a tar hunt,

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Speaker 1: possibly in New Zealand. You get a weather be rifle,

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Speaker 1: you get a whole first Light kit, you get a

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Speaker 1: benchmate knife, and all you have to do is type

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Speaker 1: in your email. You can even make up an email

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Speaker 1: just for this. Do it. We don't care. I want

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Speaker 1: to win a hunt sixty at email dot com. Fine,

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Speaker 1: there you go take it perfect that for free, thats free,

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Speaker 1: and then do seventies seventy one. We don't care. Really,

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Speaker 1: it's all about going to sign up for this thing,

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Speaker 1: and if you don't, you have to have some reason why,

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Speaker 1: Like what would be the reason that you wouldn't. I

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Speaker 1: don't understand. You have a doctor's appointment, you're clearly those

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Speaker 1: of you that have signed up are clearly. You're clearly

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Speaker 1: if you've signed up. You're shaking your head, you're in

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Speaker 1: your truck, you're at work, you're shaking. You're like, yeah, man,

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Speaker 1: get them. Get them. You're probably mad too, or maybe

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Speaker 1: you're not mad because you don't wan anybody else to

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Speaker 1: sign up. But I'm mad because somebody out there is listening,

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Speaker 1: has heard this message before and hasn't yet signed up.

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Speaker 1: It's like doing your taxes, it's not like doing you

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Speaker 1: get over there and signed up. Guy making me so mad?

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Speaker 1: Hypothetical listener unbelief. Anyway, enjoy episode one on one. Go. Hey, everybody,

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Speaker 1: welcome to episode one of one of the Hunting Collective.

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Speaker 1: I've been O'Brien. We're basking in the glow of episode

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Speaker 1: one hundred. Phil basking in the glow. Yeah, it was

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Speaker 1: a big one. That's a big one. And behind your desk,

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Speaker 1: what's behind your desk right now here at the mediator office,

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Speaker 1: is Phil. I don't know what you're referring to. The

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Speaker 1: desk where you sit, not not your actual Oh oh yes,

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Speaker 1: not this desk. The desk there's behind you right now,

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Speaker 1: but we're sit to edit these podcasts. Right outside the

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Speaker 1: studio is my is my desk, And I showed up

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Speaker 1: today and my wall was covered with drawings of of me.

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Speaker 1: Phill the engineer filled the engineer, not Phil Taylor, No,

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Speaker 1: there's two deaths. That's like your phill the engineer Clark

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Speaker 1: Kent and Superman Clark Kent. Now you know that I

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Speaker 1: don't drink coffee. I've been drinking this um. Well, what

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Speaker 1: would you say? That says so I in my head

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Speaker 1: before I found out how it was actually pronounced, I said,

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Speaker 1: you're a mate. Yep, that's how I said. Well, I

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Speaker 1: said you're a mate because I'm from Maryland and we

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Speaker 1: were read next and they said, nope, that's her mate.

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Speaker 1: I was like, well, I'm gonna keep drinking it, but

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Speaker 1: I'm going to do it in protest because that sounds

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Speaker 1: really douche to drink something called urba mate, but I'm

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Speaker 1: doing it not a sponsor. How has that been treating you? Well?

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Speaker 1: You know, I think I should start drinking coffee because

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Speaker 1: I'm just having it for the caffeine. At this point,

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Speaker 1: I listen, I didn't. I've never told you this before,

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Speaker 1: but you're missing out on one of the great joys

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Speaker 1: of life by not drinking it. Just have a black coffee. Now,

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Speaker 1: I'm just having some real douchey type of drink for

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Speaker 1: the same effective coffee hand more money. Yeah, yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: organic though, that's good. Yeah, no, anyway, Um listen, man,

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Speaker 1: you are just coming back. You're on the heels of

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Speaker 1: what I would deem. I have not been there or

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Speaker 1: talk to you about it at all as a life

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Speaker 1: changing journey to the n WTF show. I was there, yep, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I describe how your life was changed. Was it the

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Speaker 1: greatest weekend ever? Or the best weekend ever? Is there there?

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Speaker 1: Those are the only choices. Okay, I'm gonna go greatest then?

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Speaker 1: It was? It was wild. I didn't I had no

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Speaker 1: idea the the scope, the vastness that that I was

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Speaker 1: lying to WTF conference. I couldn't believe how many people

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Speaker 1: were there, the size of the resort. I'll call it

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Speaker 1: a resort. It was like a Vegas hotel. Yeah, that's

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Speaker 1: the Grand Gaylord Operland Resort. There's a river in it.

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Speaker 1: There was like eight different buildings. It's like a it's

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Speaker 1: like a replica of like like a new a new

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Speaker 1: like Bourbon Street. Halfway through, it's like you're it's like

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Speaker 1: you're in a theme park. So that was my favorite.

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Speaker 1: You were into it, I was, yeah, it's like a

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Speaker 1: theme park. How many people love love turkeys, love hunting turkeys,

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Speaker 1: love eating turkeys. Um. Yeah, I went down to the

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Speaker 1: show floor. Yea, I thought was already a massive sprawling room,

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Speaker 1: and they're like, hey, turn this corner and there's a

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Speaker 1: room that's three times the size of the massive sprawling room,

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Speaker 1: all covered with people trying to sell their own turkey calls.

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Speaker 1: That's right. I had no idea how many people made

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Speaker 1: turkey calls. A lot of thousands, thousands, and that's just

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Speaker 1: like the people that want to travel there to sell

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Speaker 1: them at Yeah, yeah, and it was, it was. It

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Speaker 1: was nuts. Um are you more excited now for your

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Speaker 1: turkey hunt? Like like you could be joking? No, no, no no,

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Speaker 1: I'm not serious. I honestly kind of. I think it's

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Speaker 1: a great setup. It's a fantastic set because that's the

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Speaker 1: people man you like you're saying. Colonel Tim Kelly was

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Speaker 1: course there, he was there. Um a lots of our

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Speaker 1: our friends. I missed missed this year obviously because I

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Speaker 1: have pressing things at home. But I love that show man.

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Speaker 1: I love going to the South, I love that community.

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Speaker 1: I love it all. It's it's just a and then

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Speaker 1: you start hunting turkeys and you you understand the fascination

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Speaker 1: with the animal. Remove the hunting part of it, because

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Speaker 1: I intend to like take my three year old out

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Speaker 1: this year and just call turkeys in and let him

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Speaker 1: see what's up without shooting them. That's gonna be tough, boy,

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Speaker 1: It's gonna be tough. That's gonna be some next size

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Speaker 1: interstrain for me. But I want to do it because

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Speaker 1: I don't think he's ready to see a turkey's head

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Speaker 1: get flopped off yet. And I just want him to

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Speaker 1: be interested in the bird, learn about the bird, will

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Speaker 1: eat a lot of the bird, as he's already done

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Speaker 1: with elk and things like that. So you might want

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Speaker 1: to do that with your kids. First turkeys shoot this

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Speaker 1: year to bring it home, eat it. Oh and by

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Speaker 1: the way, but I don't forget this. You know what

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Speaker 1: you can make out of turkeys? What's that? Carrots? Please explain.

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Speaker 1: I saw a video on the internet from Arby's and

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Speaker 1: I'm way late to this game, this like maybe a

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Speaker 1: year ago. But I don't care because it's glorious. It's

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Speaker 1: glorious Arby's made meat carrots merits, that's what they call them.

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Speaker 1: That sounds awful. I don't know, you know how. I

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Speaker 1: think we talked about this on the fake Meat episode.

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Speaker 1: You know how upset we get when they try to

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Speaker 1: make plant that look and this is the video. If

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Speaker 1: they can make meat, we can make veggies from meat.

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Speaker 1: And this is just like a recipe using a turkey bread.

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Speaker 1: Obviously there's like a farm turkey breast. Look at that.

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Speaker 1: Look at that, Phil, I'm getting I'm getting nauseous looking

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Speaker 1: at that. Like the turkey breast you're gonna get off

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Speaker 1: your turkey that you kill, and we're gonna wrap it

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Speaker 1: in cheese cloth and a plastic wrap and then they

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Speaker 1: tie it off a little string and they cover. They

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Speaker 1: put it in a soux vied to cook it temperature.

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Speaker 1: They take it out of the cheese cloth, put dried

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Speaker 1: carrot juice powder. Sounds that you're levering a fake carrot

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Speaker 1: in parts of real carrot to make it look like

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Speaker 1: a carrot. And then uh, they put like a little

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Speaker 1: sprig of regular and slice it up and listen. I'm sorry.

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Speaker 1: I'm an Arby's defender. I'm one of the few crowd.

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Speaker 1: I love a good beef and cheddar, don't do wrong

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Speaker 1: and the season Curly's but Armies, if you give you

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Speaker 1: messed up, we're making that we're not. They do look awful,

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Speaker 1: like like a nuclear hot. We took a bite of

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Speaker 1: that plant sausage and he looked inside and it was

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Speaker 1: like glowing yellow, and it was unnatural that the iron. No,

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Speaker 1: we can't do that. No, weld be making We're hypocritical

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Speaker 1: if we look at the meat carrot and we say

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Speaker 1: that that looks like a good idea. All right, Well, anyway,

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Speaker 1: I just wanted to take a detour of that. But anyway,

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Speaker 1: you're excited to hunt turkeys, Yep, you're in yep. Okay,

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Speaker 1: it's happening. Uh. And then we're gonna do lots of

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Speaker 1: talking about it when you're done, because that's the job.

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Speaker 1: So there's a lot of things before we get any further.

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Speaker 1: Couple of things. Bryce Andrews coming up wrote a book

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Speaker 1: called Down from the Mountain talking about ranchers living with

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Speaker 1: grizzly bears in a very interesting part of Montana and

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Speaker 1: a story of a particular grizzly bear. He came in

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Speaker 1: the studio. I just want to say, Phil a fantastic human,

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Speaker 1: and I felt like we had a can action. It's

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Speaker 1: kind of like missconnection. Do you ever see the thing

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Speaker 1: on the greigslist? I felt like we had it. He

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Speaker 1: had to go to another event speaking event after we interviewed,

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Speaker 1: and I felt I was like, we could be friends.

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Speaker 1: You should have followed him stand outside his hotel room

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Speaker 1: hotel room with a boombox and play something. I just felt.

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Speaker 1: I felt like, Uh, we're gonna be bros. And I

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Speaker 1: was gonna go out to his farm. We're gonna hang out.

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Speaker 1: It's not too late, you don't think so, maybe I'll

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Speaker 1: listen to this match out. I thought he was awesome,

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Speaker 1: a great interview, So you're gonna we we talk a

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Speaker 1: lot about grizzly bears and UM probably live in while

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Speaker 1: they live and really just managing. Uh. Some of the

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Speaker 1: charismatic megaphon are running around, some of the predators running around.

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Speaker 1: He works um for an organization called Carnivores and people.

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Speaker 1: I think that's what it is. Uh, And you'll hear

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Speaker 1: all about that coming up. And also everybody wants to

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Speaker 1: know about the giveaways. What's going on with the giveaways?

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Speaker 1: When is he When are we gonna announced the winners.

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Speaker 1: There's there's a small crowd forming out outside the studio

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Speaker 1: right now. People are and I'm like, calm down, have

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Speaker 1: a meat carrot and think about it. We're gonna announce

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Speaker 1: him next week episode one or two. We're gonna announce

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Speaker 1: the winners. We're gonna have a live panel in here

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Speaker 1: to select the winner of the phil Drawling and a

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Speaker 1: live panel of people. Were trying to pack the studio

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Speaker 1: full of people with real good opinions. We're gonna select

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Speaker 1: our favorites and then let let this panel help us

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Speaker 1: pick the winner. Um. We'll also announce the winner of

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Speaker 1: the Turkey Call. We got a lot of them, a

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Speaker 1: lot of entries, and then the winner of the Rhyming

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Speaker 1: Podcast Review, which again, fantastic job everyone, fantastic job. Um.

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Speaker 1: I think here's what something happened that you shall all

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Speaker 1: know about it. We had something backfire. You don't say yeah.

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Speaker 1: I don't think anybody that listens to podcast looks at

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Speaker 1: the rany Kings, but if you have a podcast like me,

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Speaker 1: you look. I want to know where I'm ranked, and

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Speaker 1: I thought we would play a trick on the rankings

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Speaker 1: by haven't you guys subscribe and unsubscribed reuscribe and backfired.

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Speaker 1: We are off the rankings completely for the first time

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Speaker 1: in a long time. Like the algorithm saw this mass

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Speaker 1: exodus happening. We got to get rid of the show.

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Speaker 1: We're not even on the list until the sponsor's not

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Speaker 1: even on the list anymore. So that was a backfire, um,

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Speaker 1: because we were just so you know, we're like in

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Speaker 1: the sports there's I heard Joe Rogan say the other

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Speaker 1: day there's nine thousand podcasts in the country or whatever

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Speaker 1: some stat where there's like almost a million podcasts, and

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Speaker 1: there there's hundreds of thousands in the sports category, which

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Speaker 1: is where we set and we're normally in like the

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Speaker 1: fifty seventy range out of all sports, which is impressive

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Speaker 1: out of all sports. Now, all the other podcasts in

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Speaker 1: our network and right there with us. We're very happy

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Speaker 1: about leading podcast networking such. Um, but we're off now.

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Speaker 1: They took us off. So anybody listening here, anybody that

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Speaker 1: works at iTunes, we're sorry. Please keep put us back

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Speaker 1: on where we apologize. Uh really made your bed with that.

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Speaker 1: Really we're off. Hopefully we get back on. And I

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Speaker 1: don't know why we're off. Maybe I think it the

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Speaker 1: the algorithm is like subscribers versus new subscribers versus reviews,

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Speaker 1: and I think just like general listenership, all goes into

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Speaker 1: this algorithm, so hopefully so that shouldn't affect if people

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Speaker 1: actually did resubscribe, maybe we're going to number one. Hopefully

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Speaker 1: the download people will still see this, the the download

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Speaker 1: count will be similar that that shouldn't change anyway. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so please please iTunes, we need you to help us out.

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Speaker 1: But uh, we're gonna announce all that stuff next week.

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Speaker 1: So you have it's right now, Tuesday. You're listening to this.

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Speaker 1: It's Tuesday, February. Really six more days. It's gotta be

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Speaker 1: in Monday for to win. So go nuts. We've got

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Speaker 1: a lot you got you know, really it's like to

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Speaker 1: win a thing. This is a very low number of

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Speaker 1: competition because if you were you know, for example, the

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Speaker 1: first Light New Zealand giveaway, I'm assuming tens of thousands

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Speaker 1: of people will have signed up for that. We gave

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Speaker 1: away a thing with Steve and Mark Kenyon and it

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Speaker 1: was hundreds of thousands of people signed up for that.

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Speaker 1: Um in this case, you're you're there's a couple of

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Speaker 1: hundred in each category and so you've got a good

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Speaker 1: chance of winning. You just gotta do the work and

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Speaker 1: be creative, So go do it all right, We've got

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Speaker 1: more was a lot of mechanicals I've gotta get to

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Speaker 1: before you get to Bryce Andrews. We've been talking about

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Speaker 1: the THHC Book Club, right, Phil, that's right, be excited

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Speaker 1: for this. Uh No, No, absolutely, I'd like you just

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Speaker 1: say that every time I asked you a rhetorical question,

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Speaker 1: lame is ship. No, I know, I actually, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I actually am just I'm curious to see what what

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Speaker 1: books you you you deem worthy I know I got

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Speaker 1: for your audience. So we're gonna do We're gonna do

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Speaker 1: twelve of them this year. And what's gonna happen with

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Speaker 1: the t book up? Now? Everybody knows about Oprah's book Club.

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Speaker 1: That's all fine and dandy. Good for you. At least

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Speaker 1: Witherspoon has one. Now to trying to take the throne, Well,

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Speaker 1: bring it from a Witherspoon and Oprah bring it. You

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Speaker 1: are famous. So we're gonna pick some books. We're gonna

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Speaker 1: get together here as a crew, pick some books. They

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Speaker 1: obviously have to be of people that are living because

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Speaker 1: we can't interview out of loophold or the likes. And

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Speaker 1: we're gonna get those folks scheduled to be on the show.

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Speaker 1: I'll let you know. A couple of weeks before that's

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Speaker 1: going to happen, we're gonna ask you to read the

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Speaker 1: book and then write a review. I will write my

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Speaker 1: own little review of the book, and then write a

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Speaker 1: review and then include a few questions for the author.

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Speaker 1: The best and most creative review will be read to

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Speaker 1: the author, along with a couple of questions you have

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Speaker 1: for that author. We're all going to read this book

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Speaker 1: together and if you we're gonna get a really cool

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Speaker 1: prize for you. If you get chosen. We'll tell you

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Speaker 1: what that is later as we get down the road.

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Speaker 1: But that's what the TC Book Club is. We're gonna

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Speaker 1: be talking about that going uh into time. But I

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Speaker 1: think it's gonna be exciting because pretty much every damn

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Speaker 1: person that comes on the show nowadays has a book,

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Speaker 1: almost all of them. I didn't plan it that way.

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Speaker 1: And we don't have like a We just have producer

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Speaker 1: Korean that goes out and calls these people, and Ben's

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Speaker 1: interested in talking to you. We don't have like some

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Speaker 1: publicists don't call and say we want you to to

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Speaker 1: do anything. We picked the people we like, we picked

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Speaker 1: the books we like, and we say we I mean

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Speaker 1: me um, and we go on. So it's cool to

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Speaker 1: try to bring this all together. Let you guys get

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Speaker 1: in on the fun. And if you have a book

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Speaker 1: that you really like, right in and tell me what

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Speaker 1: it is and will include it in the TC book.

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Speaker 1: But we have actually two or three guests coming up

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Speaker 1: in the next couple of months that I heard from

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Speaker 1: from listeners, and so if you like somebody, let me

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Speaker 1: know and we'll try to get him on the phone

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Speaker 1: or try to get him in the studio. That's that?

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Speaker 1: Is that all good? Phil? You could have said no.

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Speaker 1: You could have said no, all right, We're gonna move

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Speaker 1: to the next thing. TC Book Club. Write me at

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Speaker 1: TC a commedia dot com when you're done making all

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Speaker 1: your podcast entries. Right now, I heard I got and

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Speaker 1: a listener to listeners rode into to bitch at me

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Speaker 1: about not bitching about Joaquin Phoenix. You're a you're a cinophile, Phil.

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Speaker 1: I just want to get this. I just want to

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Speaker 1: say this right after bat Um. I love Oscar Season,

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Speaker 1: not because I think it means anything. Uh. I think

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Speaker 1: it's mostly a foolish political campaign run by Hollywood elite producers,

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Speaker 1: and the best picture that wins is hardly ever. You know,

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Speaker 1: they usually don't stay in the test of time except

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Speaker 1: this year. Parasite is a great movie. I don't know

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Speaker 1: if you've seen it towards um they got it right

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Speaker 1: this time. But I just love I. I like movies.

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Speaker 1: I like I like that there's weird categories that no

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Speaker 1: one cares about, like short film, the animation and sound

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Speaker 1: editing and cinematography. You're into it, yeah, like, let these

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Speaker 1: people get on stage and and say hi, they're kids.

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Speaker 1: But then you have people like Joaquin Phoenix. Let me

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Speaker 1: just let me just who listen, great fantastic actor. Fantastic actor.

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Speaker 1: I'm not seeing Joker. Have you see Once Upon a

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Speaker 1: Time in Hollywood? But he's not in that obviously. Have

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Speaker 1: you seen The Master? No, Okay, I've seen like some

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Speaker 1: movies that he's in, But I just always think of

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Speaker 1: him as a crazy individual, like not, he's not nailed down,

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Speaker 1: he's weird life. We don't know if you know about this,

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Speaker 1: not somebody I would call up and be like, what

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Speaker 1: do you think about the world? I would not share

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Speaker 1: your He has had a very insular experience. So I'll

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Speaker 1: start by saying this, Here's what I believe about looking

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Speaker 1: up to people and listening to people, especially those that

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Speaker 1: are athletes, are artists, whatever. And I'll tell when my

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Speaker 1: kid ever asked me this, I'll tell them exactly this.

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Speaker 1: Look up to their art, not the person. People are complicated,

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Speaker 1: they're imperfect, a lot of them are assholes. Look up

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Speaker 1: to their abilities and their art. Uh, strive to be that,

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Speaker 1: don't strive to be them. Because any person that you idolize,

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Speaker 1: you're gonna probably find that they're not exactly who you

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Speaker 1: think they are. I've had many examples of that in

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Speaker 1: my life. You get old enough, you start to understand

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Speaker 1: that these are just people. They're imperfect, they suck, they're awesome,

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Speaker 1: expired to their art, and not who they are. You

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Speaker 1: agree with that, yeah, i'd say so, all right, good.

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Speaker 1: You coulda no, you're a you're an idiot? Well no,

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Speaker 1: I mean I think that never meet your heroes thing

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Speaker 1: is uh, it's it's it's mostly true. I don't know

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Speaker 1: if anybody you know is thinks waking Phoenix is a

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Speaker 1: Waking Phoenix is a hero. But if you're if you're

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Speaker 1: an aspiring young actor, he he is very method and

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Speaker 1: into the craft. And I feel like actors and musicians

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Speaker 1: specifically and and athletes as well. There's so many of

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Speaker 1: them that are so good at what they do that

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Speaker 1: you could turn this on. You know. Mel Gibson is

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Speaker 1: a good example. I would not want to live Mel

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Speaker 1: Gibson's life. I would not want to hang out with

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Speaker 1: him or hang out with him. I would not want

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Speaker 1: to hang out with Tom Cruise. I would not want

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Speaker 1: to hang out with many of these folks. They seem

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Speaker 1: like terrible and sufferable douche bags. But I'd like when

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Speaker 1: I watched the film, I'm very much entertained by what

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Speaker 1: Time Cruise has done. I don't want to get lectured

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Speaker 1: about Zeno or anything like that. But I do love

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Speaker 1: top Gun, so I'm can you not. I love John Travolta.

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Speaker 1: He's been he's really gone downhill as Mel Gibson has

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Speaker 1: in later years. But they've made some good cinematic and

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Speaker 1: that's some good cinematic achievements over the year. So I

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Speaker 1: think this is a good thing. But for who have

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Speaker 1: no idea why we're talking about Jaquin Phoenix, let me

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Speaker 1: just play. He won the OSCAR for what phil lead

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Speaker 1: Best lead Actor. It says, yeah, lead lead lead performance,

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Speaker 1: lead actor in a motion picture. I have not seen this,

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Speaker 1: but I had a lot like multiple people right and say,

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Speaker 1: you need to listen to this ship because you've been

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Speaker 1: talking about animal rights in Hollywood. So and we did

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Speaker 1: talk about So what happened at I think it was

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Speaker 1: like the SAG Awards in the Golden Globes. The Highwood

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Speaker 1: Foreign Press made this big announcement that the only meal

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Speaker 1: available at the Golden Globes it was going to be

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Speaker 1: a vegan meal. And that's what it was, right, and

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Speaker 1: they and they like tweeted and instagrammed about celebrating that

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Speaker 1: they've gone vegan. Everybody that went to a really fancy

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Speaker 1: dinner ethical one Globes was gonna be served like vegan,

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Speaker 1: only a vegan. I'm not like, you can have a

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Speaker 1: vegan option if you'd like it. No, only vegan food

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Speaker 1: would be served. Um, it's it's yeah. They they tweeted

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Speaker 1: new this year, we're working towards a more sustainable going

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Speaker 1: Glows by serving an all vegan menu. And then there's

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Speaker 1: like a picture of some sort of orange nuclear soup

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Speaker 1: that they served. Hundreds of millionaires took private jets and

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Speaker 1: limousines to a building where they save the world by

421
00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:26,560
Speaker 1: eating soup. It was probably a delicious carrot ginger. Probably.

422
00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:29,879
Speaker 1: I mean that sounds good to me. He Look, Hollywood

423
00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:33,679
Speaker 1: is a completely insular community where you have to be

424
00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:36,840
Speaker 1: like to get work, and they all just have pretty

425
00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:39,600
Speaker 1: much the same opinions. And anybody that seems like they

426
00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:43,399
Speaker 1: don't share this very liberal, very progressive, very animal rights

427
00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:46,480
Speaker 1: bullshit opinion seems you know, you could just get walked

428
00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:48,000
Speaker 1: out of the room. So you're not gonna stand up

429
00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:51,760
Speaker 1: there and say like, I love a nice steak because

430
00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:54,760
Speaker 1: it's not good for your career because there's many producers

431
00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:57,520
Speaker 1: and there's many um that would have been an incredible

432
00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:00,640
Speaker 1: we'll we'll get to watch well, keeping in to speech later.

433
00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:03,879
Speaker 1: But really funny if the guy after Joaquins comes up,

434
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:08,679
Speaker 1: he's like just eating a big fan. But you know,

435
00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:11,560
Speaker 1: I love a good filet fan, I I I love

436
00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:14,160
Speaker 1: a nice filet mignon with a little bit of milk,

437
00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:17,120
Speaker 1: a big old cold glass of milk. Seveal just bring

438
00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:18,600
Speaker 1: a little cow out and whacking on the head of

439
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:21,080
Speaker 1: the hammer right there on stage. So this is what

440
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:25,320
Speaker 1: Joaquin said, We'll try to play this out for and

441
00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:27,760
Speaker 1: this this is like halfway through a speech. He seems

442
00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:29,479
Speaker 1: like his demeanor. If you're not seeing this, you can

443
00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:31,760
Speaker 1: of course google it. He's he's kind of a weird dude.

444
00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:34,280
Speaker 1: He's a weird dude, very uncomfortable up on the stage,

445
00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:36,119
Speaker 1: but he's trying to seize his moment. Phil and I

446
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:38,359
Speaker 1: have a disagreed about this. I feel like he has

447
00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:41,919
Speaker 1: a false like modesty going here where he just like

448
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:44,080
Speaker 1: doesn't want to be there, but he's there anyway to

449
00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:46,000
Speaker 1: say some really important ship that he doesn't want to

450
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:47,800
Speaker 1: have to say, but he's got to say it. He's

451
00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:50,119
Speaker 1: reluctant to be up there, but he's got an important message.

452
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:52,280
Speaker 1: He doesn't really do well with this stuff, but he

453
00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:54,560
Speaker 1: really wants to say something. I feel like that's horseshit.

454
00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:57,800
Speaker 1: I feel like that's he's an actor. That's true. He's

455
00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:01,280
Speaker 1: an actor. You thought that he would just was generally nervous.

456
00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:04,240
Speaker 1: I mean you if you if you watch this guy

457
00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:06,440
Speaker 1: from when he's he's been acting, acting since he was

458
00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:09,520
Speaker 1: a kid. He's acting now in this speech. I'd say

459
00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:12,119
Speaker 1: in some way probably and watching the first you know

460
00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:13,600
Speaker 1: a little bit of an Earth, So here we go.

461
00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:17,760
Speaker 1: I think that we've become very disconnected from the natural

462
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:25,159
Speaker 1: world and is egocentric worldview, the belief that we're the

463
00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:27,320
Speaker 1: center of the universe. That's mostly true. Go into the

464
00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:31,800
Speaker 1: natural world and we plunder it for its resources. We're

465
00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:40,760
Speaker 1: feeling entitled, artificially account who heartless. At first, you think

466
00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:43,280
Speaker 1: he's talking about like maybe like fracking. Oh you know,

467
00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:46,840
Speaker 1: like maybe we're taking advantage of the earth. Maybe is

468
00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:52,560
Speaker 1: this a global warming thing? And then Arnold artificially inseminating cows. Okay,

469
00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:54,720
Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm gonna walked it back a little bit.

470
00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:58,280
Speaker 1: I mean, because he's an egocentric actor talking about some

471
00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:00,320
Speaker 1: ship no one cares about because he made a movie

472
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:05,240
Speaker 1: playing a clown like that. It is the most hypocritical bullshit.

473
00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:06,760
Speaker 1: And they always get up there and they'll say, like

474
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:09,800
Speaker 1: I have earned my right to speak. That's absolutely earned

475
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:11,840
Speaker 1: your rights. This is why the oscars are fun to

476
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:13,959
Speaker 1: watch because like nine percent of the people get up there.

477
00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:15,800
Speaker 1: You get like Laura Dern and Brad Pitt, and they're

478
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:17,520
Speaker 1: so charming and we love them and they're like, thanks

479
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:19,359
Speaker 1: to my kids and my mom, that's what you should.

480
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:22,680
Speaker 1: And then you get it. Then like everyone's like get

481
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:26,399
Speaker 1: a couple of people every year get up like Renee

482
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:29,199
Speaker 1: Zellweger got up after rocking Phoenix, and she didn't do

483
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:31,159
Speaker 1: any sort of like political messaging, but it was almost

484
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:33,159
Speaker 1: harder to watch because she just like went off the

485
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:36,400
Speaker 1: deep end. This it just is. It gets I don't

486
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:38,160
Speaker 1: want to like go on a ramp, but I will.

487
00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:42,480
Speaker 1: It gets to the heart of this like disconnection. He's

488
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:45,640
Speaker 1: telling he's up there saying we're disconnected. You're the most

489
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:49,560
Speaker 1: disconnected Limo drive. This dude lives in a four thousand

490
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 1: square foot mansion. He's doing the same surfacing shit that

491
00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:56,960
Speaker 1: every other person does. Now, we got a guy coming

492
00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:59,520
Speaker 1: on in a couple of weeks who actually went from

493
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:03,600
Speaker 1: vegan to try to live without eating any industrialized food

494
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:05,800
Speaker 1: for a year, And we talked a little bit about

495
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:08,440
Speaker 1: this kind of thing where people were like the vegan movement,

496
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:11,119
Speaker 1: the animal rights movement, and people like Joaquin Phoenix that

497
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:14,000
Speaker 1: hold these views are very good at the broad strokes,

498
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:16,360
Speaker 1: are very good at talking about what might solve the problem,

499
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:19,120
Speaker 1: but they're not good at all about acting. But let's

500
00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:22,880
Speaker 1: listen to him talk about uh cows. Here see where

501
00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:28,720
Speaker 1: he goes to artificially inseminated cow and when she gives birth,

502
00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:33,000
Speaker 1: we steal her baby, even though her cries of anguish

503
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 1: are unmistakable. And then we take her milk that's intended

504
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:39,440
Speaker 1: for a calf and we put it in our coffee

505
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:42,720
Speaker 1: and our cereal. He's got crazy eyes here, dude. He's acting.

506
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:47,679
Speaker 1: He's acting personal change because we think that we have

507
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:51,400
Speaker 1: to sacrifice something to give something up. But human beings

508
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:55,760
Speaker 1: that are best are so inventive and creative and ingenious.

509
00:27:56,280 --> 00:28:00,760
Speaker 1: And I think that when we yea his love and

510
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:06,040
Speaker 1: compassion as our guiding principles, we can create, develop and

511
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:09,600
Speaker 1: implement systems of change that are beneficial to all sentient

512
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:14,080
Speaker 1: beings and to the environment. Now I've been to be

513
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:15,720
Speaker 1: a posit for a second. See, I just want to

514
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:20,080
Speaker 1: say that, like I feel like, I like, maybe I'm

515
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:23,360
Speaker 1: gonna get called out for this. I generally agree with

516
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:27,040
Speaker 1: his over all premise is that we are not doing

517
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:30,440
Speaker 1: things correctly, and there's probably a better way we could

518
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:32,520
Speaker 1: be doing them, and we should like try to work

519
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:34,440
Speaker 1: to do it. But his way, his thing is like

520
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:37,920
Speaker 1: he thinks the thing that's destroying the planet areas or

521
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:40,000
Speaker 1: I guess disconnecting us from nature is that we are

522
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:44,360
Speaker 1: drinking milk. Yeah, it's just delivery it's everything about the

523
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:46,640
Speaker 1: way he looks and the way he's speaking, and where

524
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 1: he is and what he's wearing and how he got

525
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:52,360
Speaker 1: there that makes this bullshit. Like I don't I would

526
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:54,000
Speaker 1: have him on the podcast. We could sit here and

527
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:56,239
Speaker 1: have this conversation. We would probably agree on a lot

528
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:58,520
Speaker 1: of things. Oh man, if you wanted to, if you

529
00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 1: thought Barry Gilbert I have I haven't hat ready for

530
00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:05,840
Speaker 1: walking right away as he walked in the room. I

531
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:08,880
Speaker 1: just I think that's what it's like, bullshit. I started

532
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:12,400
Speaker 1: when I'm agreeing with Ricky Gervais, who is just roasting

533
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:16,440
Speaker 1: these people. It's disconnected. This is it's just painful to

534
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 1: watch and listen to. It just just is. And it's

535
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:23,240
Speaker 1: one of those things where your message. This happens to

536
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 1: me a lot of times with Trump. I'm listening to

537
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:27,600
Speaker 1: what he's saying. I'm like, I don't disagree with this,

538
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:31,440
Speaker 1: but what are you doing? Like your delivery matters, where

539
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 1: you are matters, who you are matters, All that stuff

540
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:37,480
Speaker 1: matters within the message. And doing a show like this

541
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:42,480
Speaker 1: where you learning along the way, like every person is

542
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:45,600
Speaker 1: learning as they take stuff in. And I mean, I'm certain,

543
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:47,080
Speaker 1: I'm sure there's something for me to learn from this,

544
00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:49,960
Speaker 1: for everybody learned from this. But I don't think that

545
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:52,880
Speaker 1: what he said there's going to convince anyone. I mean,

546
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:55,040
Speaker 1: he's in it. He's literally in an echo chamber. I

547
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:57,200
Speaker 1: don't want to like make this about this show because

548
00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:59,880
Speaker 1: it's about this guy's speech. But one of the things

549
00:29:59,880 --> 00:30:03,240
Speaker 1: I I endeavored to do this year, let's have more

550
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 1: people on that are actually doing stuff on the ground.

551
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:09,680
Speaker 1: And that's what um Bryce Andrews did. He he moved

552
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:13,320
Speaker 1: from the West Coast from this from an urban environment.

553
00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:15,560
Speaker 1: We'll talk with this a lot, moved to Montana to

554
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 1: become a rancher, to learn what it's like to be

555
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:20,920
Speaker 1: a rancher, to learn what it's like to live in

556
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:23,720
Speaker 1: this country, to have an educated opinion. They started writing

557
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 1: books about the experience, and he does it very well.

558
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 1: And we have other people coming on later in the

559
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:33,840
Speaker 1: weeks that are gonna be the same way that instead

560
00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:36,320
Speaker 1: of just talking about it, being an intellectual about it,

561
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:38,440
Speaker 1: being a professor, which is nothing wrong with that, but

562
00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:41,360
Speaker 1: these are people that have have taken up the mantle,

563
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:44,680
Speaker 1: cared about this stuff and going on. So it's not

564
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:50,120
Speaker 1: that these ideas even thinking about being an environmentalist. Um,

565
00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:52,200
Speaker 1: in the modern sense, it's a bad thing, but it's

566
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:57,400
Speaker 1: just the way these animal rights views shape it. And

567
00:30:57,440 --> 00:30:59,480
Speaker 1: so I don't think it will be controversial to say

568
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:02,640
Speaker 1: Walking Nix is an idiot in this case, but he is.

569
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:04,960
Speaker 1: And so there it is. If I haven't watched it,

570
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:08,600
Speaker 1: you can go google it. All right, Well, we're gonna

571
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:10,560
Speaker 1: get to Bryce Andrews. We talked about a lot of

572
00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 1: really cool stuff. But again, here's a guy who um,

573
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:17,120
Speaker 1: moved from an urban environment, wanted to become wanted to

574
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:18,560
Speaker 1: see what it's like to be a ranch or, wanted

575
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:21,680
Speaker 1: to live in the West. He idolize the West, came

576
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:26,960
Speaker 1: out here and uh did it? Started his own his

577
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:31,160
Speaker 1: own ranching company, his own cattle or company, then quit that,

578
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:35,040
Speaker 1: moved into a group called people in Carnivores where he's

579
00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:37,520
Speaker 1: really talking about how to co exist, how to really

580
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:41,040
Speaker 1: coexist with with grizzly bears, wolves and a like. Um,

581
00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:43,920
Speaker 1: not whether they should be there or not, but they're there.

582
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:45,800
Speaker 1: How do we manage it? How do we do better?

583
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:49,280
Speaker 1: Because I thought that it was really cool. Um, and

584
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:51,959
Speaker 1: so a guy who I want to be friends with him,

585
00:31:52,000 --> 00:32:03,160
Speaker 1: this is Bryce Andrews. Enjoy Hey, Bryce, how's it going.

586
00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 1: It's going great. Thank you so much for having me in. Yeah,

587
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:08,360
Speaker 1: thanks for coming in. This is uh, your first time

588
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:10,520
Speaker 1: of metiator. You weren't really sure what the hell we

589
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 1: even were. Well, I did need a little bit of

590
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:15,760
Speaker 1: reading in, but I think that's that is all down

591
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:17,479
Speaker 1: to the fact that I live on a farm kind

592
00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:20,440
Speaker 1: of under a rock in the middle of nowhere. Um,

593
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:22,920
Speaker 1: but yeah, I apologize you could you won't hear in

594
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:24,560
Speaker 1: the background. Phil tells me you won't hear it in

595
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:27,560
Speaker 1: the background. But Steve and the flip Flop Pleasure out

596
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:30,840
Speaker 1: there filming a beaver Caster video which you'll see on

597
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:34,960
Speaker 1: somewhere or was I gonna go Phil social media? Probably? Um,

598
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:36,640
Speaker 1: so you may hear that in the background. But that's

599
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:38,920
Speaker 1: just our office, Brice, that's what That's who we are,

600
00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:43,320
Speaker 1: That's right. Yeah, normal normal Monday, Monday Monday's. Um. So

601
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:45,080
Speaker 1: you're an author. I wanted to start out to make

602
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:47,080
Speaker 1: sure we covered this. We were just talking about it.

603
00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:49,920
Speaker 1: Jonathan Todd Ross is this guy that reads your audiobook

604
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:52,680
Speaker 1: And when I hit play on it and I heard

605
00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:55,520
Speaker 1: Jonathan Todd Ross come on, I've been calling him j

606
00:32:55,640 --> 00:33:00,840
Speaker 1: t R because we're close and is beautiful. I love

607
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:03,160
Speaker 1: that dude's voice. I've listened. I think this is maybe

608
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:05,680
Speaker 1: the fifth book i've listened that he's done an audiobook.

609
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 1: So if you know him, let reach out, because I

610
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:10,360
Speaker 1: think we're friends. I will. I'll let him know. I'll

611
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:12,560
Speaker 1: pass it along through the editors when he does a

612
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:14,840
Speaker 1: great job. When you spend thirty hours of someone forty

613
00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:16,760
Speaker 1: hours so and you feel it's right, yeah, you get

614
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:19,720
Speaker 1: to that initial uh uses initials, that level of familiar

615
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:21,640
Speaker 1: like I'd liked him to come over and read to

616
00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:25,280
Speaker 1: me a night, just whatever down in the back of

617
00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:27,360
Speaker 1: the milk jug. I don't really care anything. I feel

618
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:31,400
Speaker 1: like I have a good relationship with him, feeling good. Um,

619
00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:34,000
Speaker 1: so you're you're not a Montana boy, but you're living

620
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:36,800
Speaker 1: in Montana now, right, Yeah, I came out to Montana. Well,

621
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:39,400
Speaker 1: I mean I came as a kid, uh and worked

622
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:42,720
Speaker 1: on my godparents ranch outside of Billings from the time

623
00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:45,920
Speaker 1: I was gosh like eight on. Um. But I grew

624
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:48,280
Speaker 1: up in Seattle, So I grew up far away from

625
00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:50,360
Speaker 1: the place where I've made my life and living for

626
00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:53,760
Speaker 1: the last uh more than a decade. And you wrote

627
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:55,640
Speaker 1: a book, Bad Luck Away that talks about this, and

628
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:57,080
Speaker 1: you talk about this in your other book, Down from

629
00:33:57,120 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 1: the Mountain that we'll get to. Um, kind of like

630
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:03,480
Speaker 1: your why you came to Montana, not originally, but while

631
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:05,720
Speaker 1: you moved to Montana, while you were pursuing there. I

632
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:08,080
Speaker 1: feel like that that story is as interesting as anything

633
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:10,120
Speaker 1: that has to do with grizzly bears or whatever we'll

634
00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:13,799
Speaker 1: talk about. So you were living in Washington, right, UM,

635
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:17,440
Speaker 1: I believe Walla, Walla or somewhere there, tell my research,

636
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:21,520
Speaker 1: and you decided that, like you just you can describe

637
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:24,239
Speaker 1: kind of how you decided to move to Montana, what

638
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:27,160
Speaker 1: those feelings were. You describe it well, and you're writing,

639
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:29,600
Speaker 1: but I think just here and straight from you, Yeah,

640
00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:33,320
Speaker 1: I mean, I think really like the thing that struck

641
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:35,200
Speaker 1: me even as a kid, when I would come out

642
00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:37,080
Speaker 1: here and my dad would take me out here fishing,

643
00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:39,920
Speaker 1: and we'd go on these sort of epic Montana summer

644
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:43,480
Speaker 1: road trips. I would cross the Cascades and I would

645
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:47,960
Speaker 1: come out into eastern Washington and see the horizon spread out,

646
00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:50,040
Speaker 1: and it was just like something inside me just kind

647
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:53,160
Speaker 1: of like relaxed and and you know, mellowed out and

648
00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:56,600
Speaker 1: ran out to the horizon and Montana was always um

649
00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:59,240
Speaker 1: like that, but just amplified. I just loved the place.

650
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:02,000
Speaker 1: I love the Austin charity of the landscape and the wildness,

651
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:05,480
Speaker 1: and I loved the places where there weren't people um

652
00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:09,239
Speaker 1: and just drawn to it um. And I made my

653
00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:12,560
Speaker 1: way toward it through the work for ranching. That was

654
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:15,600
Speaker 1: always the way that I knew this landscape best and

655
00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:17,480
Speaker 1: the way I got to immerse myself in it. So

656
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:19,799
Speaker 1: I love that work and I love this place ever

657
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:23,040
Speaker 1: since I first encountered it. Yeah, I mean you said

658
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:27,680
Speaker 1: you grew up in this relatively urban environment. Very yeah,

659
00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:30,640
Speaker 1: I mean describe like at that time, because I think

660
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:32,520
Speaker 1: the juxtaposition of where you are now where you were

661
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:38,040
Speaker 1: there is important during your city guide life. What did

662
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:41,760
Speaker 1: you think about large carnivores like grizzly bears and large

663
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:44,320
Speaker 1: landscapes like this when you were you know, less informed

664
00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:46,799
Speaker 1: and kind of yeah, aspired to them, but they were

665
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:50,200
Speaker 1: abstract to me. I mean they were conceptually interesting, and

666
00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:53,080
Speaker 1: I was like, I was that dorky kid that did

667
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:56,719
Speaker 1: a senior project on range management. It's like, like, no

668
00:35:56,880 --> 00:35:59,640
Speaker 1: teacher and in my high school, what ever encountered the

669
00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:04,240
Speaker 1: con accept or a curiosity in that direction. But um,

670
00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:06,680
Speaker 1: you know, I think I understood so Like my my

671
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:10,040
Speaker 1: dad was an art director. He ran the University Washington's

672
00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:12,640
Speaker 1: Contemporary Art Museum, and they did this show that was

673
00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:15,359
Speaker 1: called The Myth of the West. And I think that

674
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:17,880
Speaker 1: happened when I was I don't know, maybe nine or

675
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:20,440
Speaker 1: ten years old, and the thing that I remember was

676
00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:24,120
Speaker 1: seeing these images. You know, you'd see like these um

677
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:26,920
Speaker 1: you know, early watercolors of the West, the sketches of

678
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:30,040
Speaker 1: people who explore it out here. You see these traditional

679
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:33,799
Speaker 1: um depictions that are taken from the native tribes. You

680
00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:37,200
Speaker 1: see all these different sort of records of the West,

681
00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:41,520
Speaker 1: and so many of them featured large carnivores and these giant, rugged,

682
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:44,040
Speaker 1: empty landscapes, and I just, I don't know, I just

683
00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:47,479
Speaker 1: got fascinated with it, but in a totally distanced way.

684
00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:51,879
Speaker 1: You know, I couldn't, um, I couldn't imagine myself being

685
00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:54,120
Speaker 1: part of that landscape, even though I deeply wanted to.

686
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:58,439
Speaker 1: And so, yeah, I grew up with the similar feelings, right,

687
00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:02,360
Speaker 1: Like mine's a little bit more trite, maybe that I

688
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:04,040
Speaker 1: watched Lonesome Dove as a kid, and I'm like, oh,

689
00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:06,319
Speaker 1: I did Texas to Montana, and they you start to

690
00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:10,120
Speaker 1: think about what these landscapes mean and kind of what

691
00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:12,759
Speaker 1: those horizons look like, and how the depth of a

692
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:16,400
Speaker 1: place like this in the life of it seems seems

693
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:18,279
Speaker 1: so much greater than where I grew up in the

694
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:22,000
Speaker 1: East coast of Maryland, and I have the same feelings

695
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:24,440
Speaker 1: you had. Yeah, I as a kid, I wanted to

696
00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:27,080
Speaker 1: know about it. I want to understand it. I don't

697
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:30,279
Speaker 1: know if every kid, I certainly idolized cowboys, thought that

698
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:32,839
Speaker 1: life was something that ranch life was something I wanted

699
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:36,400
Speaker 1: to get to. But you actually did it like you didn't.

700
00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:40,520
Speaker 1: I'm just a podcaster. I live in Montana, but I

701
00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:43,440
Speaker 1: live in the suburbs like you did it, Like you

702
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:48,719
Speaker 1: really went from having those you know, childhood yearnings to

703
00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:50,839
Speaker 1: to make in the Jump. And one of the most

704
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:54,560
Speaker 1: interesting things about your writing in both your books, I

705
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:57,480
Speaker 1: love it and I love it when artists, because I

706
00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:04,040
Speaker 1: consider writers artists um take on so the things like ranching,

707
00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:06,880
Speaker 1: things that are kind of rough scrabble that that you

708
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:09,600
Speaker 1: might write poetically about, but you're writing kind of gets

709
00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:12,880
Speaker 1: down to the dirtiness of it and addresses the feelings

710
00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:14,919
Speaker 1: in a way that you know, people that hadn't done

711
00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:17,399
Speaker 1: it for as long as you have, uh could do.

712
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:19,400
Speaker 1: I mean it's it's it's great. I think that's a

713
00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:21,400
Speaker 1: really nice way of saying. You know, you spend a

714
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:24,719
Speaker 1: lot of time describing building fans. Yeah, and that's the

715
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:28,120
Speaker 1: way it absolutely Yeah, And I mean it's interesting. It's

716
00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:31,920
Speaker 1: interesting work to know well. And I keep I have

717
00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:34,759
Speaker 1: this really strong conviction that the things that we do

718
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:37,480
Speaker 1: all the time, the things that seem mundane, are actually

719
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:40,560
Speaker 1: really good ways of getting to know the landscape deeply

720
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:43,920
Speaker 1: and understand what we're doing to the places that ultimately

721
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:47,400
Speaker 1: sustain us. So I often do choose to write about

722
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:50,680
Speaker 1: things that seem yeah simple or or gritty or dirty

723
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:53,480
Speaker 1: or or or whatever. Yeah, I mean it's it's it's

724
00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:55,480
Speaker 1: that the manus I even wrote down here, I just

725
00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:58,160
Speaker 1: wrote down minusha because it's like that's where the beauty

726
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:00,480
Speaker 1: and these things are, and that's what we often don't

727
00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:03,719
Speaker 1: address or even celebrate, right, like we don't. So in

728
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:07,319
Speaker 1: and reading your books, I was like, I'm learning about

729
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 1: this minution and that's where somebody with your ability can

730
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:13,560
Speaker 1: really walk people through what it's really like to be there. Yeah,

731
00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:15,840
Speaker 1: I mean, all the you know, I'm fascinated with the

732
00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:19,360
Speaker 1: beauty and the brutality of of this place and the

733
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:23,759
Speaker 1: work that I've done here. And um, I think that

734
00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:27,080
Speaker 1: that like those qualities beauty and brutality are not just

735
00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:30,120
Speaker 1: present in like the vast, sweeping landscape. There present in

736
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:33,360
Speaker 1: those details. And that's what constitutes the daily life of

737
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:35,799
Speaker 1: a ranch hand, or the daily life of you know,

738
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:39,160
Speaker 1: an outfitter or anybody who's really in this landscape all

739
00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:41,760
Speaker 1: the time every day. It's it's these weird little details

740
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:44,080
Speaker 1: that have you know, some of them no consequences, some

741
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:48,000
Speaker 1: of them you know, life or death consequences. Um, but yeah,

742
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:50,440
Speaker 1: they reveal something about this place. I think, you know

743
00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:55,040
Speaker 1: it will maybe get to this too. I think normally, Um,

744
00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:57,480
Speaker 1: those experiences kind of harden your opinions. Right you you

745
00:39:57,520 --> 00:39:59,480
Speaker 1: see it up firsthand, and you go one way or

746
00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:02,600
Speaker 1: the other, right it right. Some people come protectionists, some

747
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:05,520
Speaker 1: people come, you know, become the opposite. They fall into

748
00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:08,520
Speaker 1: things like you there's a beautiful pardon and down from

749
00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:11,160
Speaker 1: the mountain where you talk about killing a heifer and

750
00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:14,000
Speaker 1: feeling guilty about it, feeling sad about it, and dreaming

751
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:16,640
Speaker 1: about letting him out, like pulling on the side before

752
00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:19,279
Speaker 1: you go to the butcher, like like, hey, just just

753
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:20,960
Speaker 1: go out there. But then you also realize that if

754
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:22,719
Speaker 1: you let them out there, somebody else would scoop them

755
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:25,200
Speaker 1: up and they would come to the same end. So

756
00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:28,520
Speaker 1: like there's a weird sadness in that. I'm jumping forward

757
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:30,920
Speaker 1: because people got to know how you got there. But

758
00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:34,839
Speaker 1: I'm excited to talk about that part um. I think

759
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:38,480
Speaker 1: that we need to say, like, when you get into Montana,

760
00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:40,040
Speaker 1: what did you do and why did you want to

761
00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:43,960
Speaker 1: do it? Because there's a lot that that informs. Yeah,

762
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:45,839
Speaker 1: I mean when I came here, I wanted to be

763
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:49,040
Speaker 1: as close as I possibly could do this landscape that

764
00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:51,880
Speaker 1: was so attractive and interesting to me. And so what

765
00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:54,960
Speaker 1: I did is I took ranch hand, uh, like a

766
00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:58,440
Speaker 1: summer job at the upper end of the Madison Valley

767
00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:01,240
Speaker 1: on a ranch called the Sun Ran. Beautiful place, incredible.

768
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:03,600
Speaker 1: Have you been to the sun driven by and saw

769
00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:07,439
Speaker 1: its many winning elk and like, oh yeah, I had thousands. Tip. Yeah,

770
00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:10,520
Speaker 1: I love when people come ilways driving by. My family

771
00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:12,160
Speaker 1: comes around it east we trap by the sun Ranch.

772
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:13,560
Speaker 1: But like you want to see some milk, I'll take

773
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:14,920
Speaker 1: you where you can see some milk. I mean, it's

774
00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:17,760
Speaker 1: a funny thing because I fell. I fell into that job.

775
00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:20,640
Speaker 1: You know, I found it from a distance on the

776
00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:25,160
Speaker 1: ms U like range sciences bulletin thing. And I didn't

777
00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:27,840
Speaker 1: I didn't know anything except for these little bits I

778
00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:31,560
Speaker 1: had learned um, you know, working for my godparents UM

779
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:35,439
Speaker 1: as a kid, and I UM, I basically fell into

780
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:39,399
Speaker 1: that opportunity. And you know, you probably have have seen

781
00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:41,200
Speaker 1: and I think a lot of people in this landscape

782
00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:44,399
Speaker 1: have seen how like in every in every valley, there's

783
00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:47,080
Speaker 1: one ranch that's like it's like just right, you know,

784
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:49,080
Speaker 1: it sits on the land in this special way. It

785
00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:52,480
Speaker 1: looks at the mountains and the right orientations, like the

786
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:56,080
Speaker 1: drainages are like yeah, I'll go here, right everything converges

787
00:41:56,280 --> 00:41:58,080
Speaker 1: and the Sun Ranch is one of those places, like

788
00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:03,720
Speaker 1: twenty acres push is right up to the Lee Metcalf Wilderness. UM, huge,

789
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:08,000
Speaker 1: huge wildlife populations, thousands of elk that come across you know,

790
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:12,000
Speaker 1: expedition pass um, all sorts of wild carnivores. And I

791
00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:14,640
Speaker 1: ended up taking care of this really large herd, being

792
00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:16,960
Speaker 1: one of a ranch crew of three taking care of

793
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:22,120
Speaker 1: this herd of yearling. At this point, what year was.

794
00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:25,840
Speaker 1: I was twenty two and it was two thousand and six.

795
00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:28,680
Speaker 1: Were you coming off of college? Had you? Yeah? I

796
00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:30,760
Speaker 1: was coming off of college. UM, and I had taken

797
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:35,319
Speaker 1: this uh you know, like the classic uh Ill advised

798
00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:37,920
Speaker 1: train trip around the country. There's a there's a deal

799
00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:39,480
Speaker 1: at that time, that's what you want to do. Yeah,

800
00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:41,239
Speaker 1: we've we've been there. I went to Ireland and towards

801
00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:45,319
Speaker 1: the breweries. Yeah, that sounds was great. Actually I spent

802
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:48,920
Speaker 1: you know, a month sleeping on Amtrak trains. They was

803
00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:50,400
Speaker 1: thinking about that when I was reading your book. I'm like,

804
00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:52,319
Speaker 1: I wonder what this guy did to get into this

805
00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:55,360
Speaker 1: because like prior to yeah, like I'm sure there was

806
00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:58,319
Speaker 1: some like college experience that you that was wild enough

807
00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:01,560
Speaker 1: to kind of like somehow push you in that direction.

808
00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:04,040
Speaker 1: I don't you know, or maybe not. I just I

809
00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:05,400
Speaker 1: made it up in my head. I feel like I

810
00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:08,600
Speaker 1: just did normal college things and and so desired something

811
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:11,880
Speaker 1: that was kind of weird and different. UM, and that

812
00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:14,120
Speaker 1: trip really was. You know. I ended up in UM

813
00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:17,480
Speaker 1: in New Orleans post Katrina, you know, like you know,

814
00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:20,320
Speaker 1: several years or I actually don't remember what year Hurricane

815
00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:23,879
Speaker 1: Katrina was, but the damage remained. You know their water lines,

816
00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:27,319
Speaker 1: crossed everything. I ended up in rural Mexico, hitchhiking up

817
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:29,920
Speaker 1: Baja and like it was just a It was one

818
00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:32,640
Speaker 1: of those like you know, voyage of self discovery things.

819
00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:35,560
Speaker 1: And I came home and I didn't know what I

820
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:38,480
Speaker 1: wanted to do. Um, but I did know how much

821
00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:41,960
Speaker 1: I cared about this place out here. So from Seattle, yeah,

822
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:44,919
Speaker 1: I found my way here, and yeah, I never really

823
00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:46,880
Speaker 1: looked back. I mean I worked on the Sun and

824
00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:49,480
Speaker 1: then I went on to work on and manage other ranches.

825
00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:53,200
Speaker 1: And um, now my wife and I have a farm

826
00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:57,600
Speaker 1: uh on the Flathead Reservation north of Missoula. Yeah beautiful, Yeah,

827
00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:02,680
Speaker 1: great spot man Um talked about in your book Down

828
00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:05,440
Speaker 1: from the Mountain about those early days. I believe it

829
00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:07,239
Speaker 1: was on the Sun Ranch where you would go out

830
00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:10,080
Speaker 1: on patrol early in the morning, be on horseback, kind

831
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:13,759
Speaker 1: of learning the horse, learn in the environment, and at

832
00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:16,360
Speaker 1: some point within telling a story of going out looking

833
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:20,360
Speaker 1: for stray cattle and poachers or whatever, you learn the landscape.

834
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:23,080
Speaker 1: But you also learned what it was like, what was

835
00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:27,240
Speaker 1: really like to live around large carnivores like grizzly bears

836
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:30,800
Speaker 1: in this instance, or wolves or like the feeling of

837
00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:33,759
Speaker 1: going from no danger, well the danger of like a

838
00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:36,360
Speaker 1: street a car hitting you in the street, to this

839
00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:38,640
Speaker 1: danger of there's a shadow, there's some rustling. I'm on

840
00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:41,400
Speaker 1: a horse now I gotta deal with this. Yeah, I mean,

841
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:43,320
Speaker 1: I think one of the coolest things about ranching is

842
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:47,040
Speaker 1: that you're not just observing the landscape, you're participating in it.

843
00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:49,160
Speaker 1: And hunting is like this too. You know, you have

844
00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:52,319
Speaker 1: a position, you have an objective, and that's really really

845
00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:57,800
Speaker 1: different than um, you know, wildlife watching in Yellowstone for instance,

846
00:44:58,120 --> 00:45:00,200
Speaker 1: And I remember being on the Sun Ranch and had

847
00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:03,520
Speaker 1: two different uh experiences that really kind of like book

848
00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:06,520
Speaker 1: ended that feeling for me. One, I was running across

849
00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:09,359
Speaker 1: one of the North End flats. There's big flat part

850
00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:11,680
Speaker 1: of the ranch on the north end, and this antelope

851
00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:14,440
Speaker 1: was coming out of the distance and I realized, you know,

852
00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:17,560
Speaker 1: so we're on these parallel trajectories converging on this enormous

853
00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:19,959
Speaker 1: flat expanse. There's like not a sage brush to hide

854
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:22,239
Speaker 1: behind for miles. And then I keep thinking like this

855
00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:24,399
Speaker 1: antelope is going to turn, you know, like he's gonna

856
00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:26,759
Speaker 1: see me, and he's gonna turn, and slowly as we

857
00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:29,839
Speaker 1: both kind of kept trotting. It became apparent that like

858
00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:32,000
Speaker 1: he did not see me for whatever reason. You know,

859
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:33,920
Speaker 1: he was looking up into the sunset, you know, the

860
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:35,839
Speaker 1: sun was behind me and he just couldn't really see.

861
00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:40,160
Speaker 1: But we got really close, like twenty ft and for

862
00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:43,680
Speaker 1: all the hunters are like, whoa, yeah the sunset. Yeah,

863
00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:46,000
Speaker 1: great idea, you know, something like we're converging. And all

864
00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:48,000
Speaker 1: of a sudden I realized like, if I don't do

865
00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:51,200
Speaker 1: something about this, We're literally going to run into each other.

866
00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:53,840
Speaker 1: I'm going to run into this antelope. And so, you know,

867
00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:55,720
Speaker 1: being a city kid, I like looked at the antlope

868
00:45:55,719 --> 00:45:58,720
Speaker 1: and was like hey, and and it did a double

869
00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:01,080
Speaker 1: take and sprinted off to the horizon. And I had

870
00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:04,960
Speaker 1: this moment of thinking like like, man, I can I

871
00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:08,600
Speaker 1: can reach out and touch this world? That that was

872
00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:11,320
Speaker 1: so abstract for me. And then I had a parallel

873
00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:13,080
Speaker 1: experience where I was in the brush and had a

874
00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:16,040
Speaker 1: grizzly really close to me, and I thought, oh shit,

875
00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:18,200
Speaker 1: it can reach out and it can touch me too,

876
00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:20,640
Speaker 1: you know. And and that kind of immersion, I think,

877
00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:24,160
Speaker 1: is is what I like so much about this work. Yeah,

878
00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:25,640
Speaker 1: and then you get to you get to a point

879
00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:28,880
Speaker 1: where you have those first experiences where you realize this

880
00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:31,120
Speaker 1: is reality, and then you talk a little bit about

881
00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:33,560
Speaker 1: living in close proximity to these animals, because then it

882
00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:36,200
Speaker 1: comes I don't know if it ever normalizes, but it

883
00:46:36,239 --> 00:46:38,840
Speaker 1: becomes part of what you handle on a daily basis,

884
00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:42,239
Speaker 1: kind of what you handle when you're outside, and like,

885
00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:44,960
Speaker 1: just it has to change you a little bit. It

886
00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:47,439
Speaker 1: has for me too, when I'm hunting my entire life,

887
00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:51,480
Speaker 1: not worried about a thing, right, possibly a rattlesnake, possibly

888
00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:54,720
Speaker 1: something else. I come here and I've got this orange

889
00:46:54,760 --> 00:46:58,360
Speaker 1: canister strapped of my waist and a pistol on my polster,

890
00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:02,319
Speaker 1: and it's just a whole different It alert you don't

891
00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:04,439
Speaker 1: you can't really settle into it. It's such a weird

892
00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:07,200
Speaker 1: thing that because like I went to UM, my wife

893
00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:09,560
Speaker 1: and I went to Costa Rica and we're in the jungle.

894
00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:12,279
Speaker 1: We're learning about different kinds of carnivore conflict and how

895
00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:15,400
Speaker 1: people deal with it. So we were with jaguar researcher

896
00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:20,759
Speaker 1: walking around in like one of the least developed corners

897
00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:24,000
Speaker 1: of the Costa Rican rainforest, and I was just scared

898
00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:26,759
Speaker 1: out of my mind the whole time because there are

899
00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:30,520
Speaker 1: tiny little leaf colored snakes in all the leaves that

900
00:47:30,560 --> 00:47:33,200
Speaker 1: bite you and you die. And yeah, no me either,

901
00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:36,359
Speaker 1: and you know. And so it's just it's different kinds

902
00:47:36,360 --> 00:47:39,200
Speaker 1: of risk though, because the guys who worked there, you know,

903
00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:41,960
Speaker 1: that's part of their life, the same way that rattlesnakes

904
00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:44,200
Speaker 1: and grizzlies are part of mine. It's a risk, and

905
00:47:44,239 --> 00:47:48,000
Speaker 1: I understand it, but something, um, something in you becomes

906
00:47:48,440 --> 00:47:51,160
Speaker 1: calmer or resigned to it or familiar with it over

907
00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:54,560
Speaker 1: a time. Um. But it's funny how unimaginable it is.

908
00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:56,080
Speaker 1: Like you go down there and I think, like, I

909
00:47:56,120 --> 00:47:59,080
Speaker 1: could never get used to this. Yeah, and maybe I couldn't.

910
00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:02,080
Speaker 1: I don't know. Maybe I'm somehow calibrated now for these animals,

911
00:48:02,080 --> 00:48:05,000
Speaker 1: these risks in this landscape. But but and I'm sure

912
00:48:05,080 --> 00:48:07,759
Speaker 1: you've thought about this, it requires some level of sacrifice.

913
00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:11,680
Speaker 1: You have to sacrifice the feeling of like, I'm I

914
00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:13,640
Speaker 1: can go around this corner and for no fall of

915
00:48:13,719 --> 00:48:15,920
Speaker 1: the bear or my own. I can jump up a

916
00:48:15,960 --> 00:48:18,680
Speaker 1: grizzly bear and it can kill me. So you're sacrificing

917
00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:22,080
Speaker 1: some level of safety for the landscape that you choose.

918
00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:23,919
Speaker 1: You know, if you choose to live there you're making

919
00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:27,040
Speaker 1: a deal. Yeah, and and and I think people should

920
00:48:27,040 --> 00:48:29,600
Speaker 1: be really upfront about that. Um, you know when we

921
00:48:29,640 --> 00:48:32,200
Speaker 1: talk about when I talk about the importance of having

922
00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:35,279
Speaker 1: grizzlies on the landscape, that risk is something I've accepted,

923
00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:40,239
Speaker 1: and it's it's certainly a complicated thing because when things

924
00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:45,200
Speaker 1: do go really badly, it's a horrible outcome. And Yeah,

925
00:48:45,239 --> 00:48:46,799
Speaker 1: we've talked a lot about bear tax on here, and

926
00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:49,120
Speaker 1: when you start to hear them, a lot of them

927
00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:52,839
Speaker 1: have to have this like similar refrain of the bear

928
00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:55,719
Speaker 1: is not hunting you. You're running up on the bear,

929
00:48:55,800 --> 00:48:58,680
Speaker 1: or vice versa. Something happened that neither of you had

930
00:48:58,680 --> 00:49:02,960
Speaker 1: predicted or or plan for, and then this clash occurs

931
00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:07,080
Speaker 1: that then it doesn't end well ever when it goes

932
00:49:07,080 --> 00:49:08,719
Speaker 1: down like that. But and that's like I said, you

933
00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:11,080
Speaker 1: just make that deal, and you know, and the same thing.

934
00:49:11,120 --> 00:49:13,080
Speaker 1: I laugh. I don't know how you feel about this.

935
00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:17,360
Speaker 1: When I see the signs for Yellowstone like bison, don't

936
00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:20,359
Speaker 1: don't get too close, yeah whatever that I can't even

937
00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:22,400
Speaker 1: remember the number, but they're like, don't get this close

938
00:49:22,440 --> 00:49:26,719
Speaker 1: to bison, Like, who did we negotiate that number with

939
00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:29,000
Speaker 1: the bison? We won't get twelve feet away from you.

940
00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:31,959
Speaker 1: You stay there, We'll stay here. And it's like you've

941
00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:34,440
Speaker 1: actively made this choice. I've actually made this choice. We're

942
00:49:34,440 --> 00:49:36,920
Speaker 1: going out in the landscape and making a choice. It

943
00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:39,880
Speaker 1: feels like visitors to Yellostone maybe sometimes don't understand that

944
00:49:39,960 --> 00:49:42,920
Speaker 1: they they're unconsciously making that choice because they want to

945
00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:46,200
Speaker 1: get close. And like we spend so much time focusing

946
00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:49,399
Speaker 1: on a few of the risks that exist in nature,

947
00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:52,239
Speaker 1: like the grizzly one. We all think about it out here,

948
00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:54,799
Speaker 1: but you know, I can think of times when I've

949
00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:58,720
Speaker 1: been twice as scared of a moose, like an angry

950
00:49:58,760 --> 00:50:01,560
Speaker 1: moose um or you know, or and you don't even

951
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:03,399
Speaker 1: and then there are all the other sort of more

952
00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:06,360
Speaker 1: mundane ways to die in the natural world, you know,

953
00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:08,239
Speaker 1: Like you know, you're out there traveling in the winter

954
00:50:08,280 --> 00:50:10,640
Speaker 1: and you fall down a tree. Well, what a grim

955
00:50:10,680 --> 00:50:13,040
Speaker 1: you know, what a grim way to go, and what

956
00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:15,799
Speaker 1: a present risk that we just don't think about the

957
00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:19,000
Speaker 1: way we you know. But yeah, we're here to talk

958
00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:21,200
Speaker 1: about carnivores. I guess we're here to do like I said,

959
00:50:21,200 --> 00:50:23,680
Speaker 1: it's conversation talk about let's talk about where it goes.

960
00:50:23,719 --> 00:50:27,239
Speaker 1: But I do think that's that risk and living with

961
00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:30,600
Speaker 1: it is something that you know, when you start to

962
00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:32,359
Speaker 1: talk about your book in the Mission Valley and over

963
00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:35,080
Speaker 1: in the Flathead, you know, it would be nice to

964
00:50:35,120 --> 00:50:37,720
Speaker 1: describe what that valley looks like because it's the setting

965
00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:40,880
Speaker 1: for your book, sure, but it's also the setting for

966
00:50:40,920 --> 00:50:43,439
Speaker 1: this very real comparison to what we're talking about now.

967
00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:47,200
Speaker 1: The risks. I mean, there's been pheasant hunters attacked by

968
00:50:47,239 --> 00:50:51,640
Speaker 1: bears often, and in fact that you know flvps putting

969
00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:54,880
Speaker 1: out alerts like hey, pheasant hunters. That's not something that

970
00:50:55,200 --> 00:50:57,960
Speaker 1: that I think a lot of hunters or even outdoors

971
00:50:57,960 --> 00:51:00,080
Speaker 1: been think of your peasant hunting, you might run to

972
00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:03,640
Speaker 1: a grizzle bear that activity, those two activities don't often cross.

973
00:51:03,960 --> 00:51:07,600
Speaker 1: But in the Mission Valley that happens. And so I think,

974
00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:11,040
Speaker 1: because we'll talk about Millie the grizzly Baron and get

975
00:51:11,080 --> 00:51:15,600
Speaker 1: into that like where I guess describe how you first

976
00:51:15,800 --> 00:51:17,799
Speaker 1: got to the to the Mission Valley kind of what

977
00:51:17,840 --> 00:51:20,640
Speaker 1: that looks like and scene for people. So I got

978
00:51:20,640 --> 00:51:23,040
Speaker 1: to the Mission valued by, you know, through the work

979
00:51:23,080 --> 00:51:25,319
Speaker 1: that I was doing for this small conservation group that's

980
00:51:25,320 --> 00:51:27,880
Speaker 1: called People in Carnivores, which is a group that works

981
00:51:27,880 --> 00:51:33,200
Speaker 1: to reconnect and restore populations of native carnivores um by

982
00:51:33,239 --> 00:51:36,880
Speaker 1: reducing conflicts between those carnivores and human beings. Um, we

983
00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:39,319
Speaker 1: should you know, there's so much it baked in all this,

984
00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:41,560
Speaker 1: but we should want to address kind of like how

985
00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:44,360
Speaker 1: you came to that. Yeah, because it is connected to

986
00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:46,680
Speaker 1: an earlier thing I mentioned where you're when you're talking

987
00:51:46,719 --> 00:51:49,799
Speaker 1: about you're working for a company called Oxbow. Or you're

988
00:51:49,800 --> 00:51:52,800
Speaker 1: a co owner of a friend, so you started a

989
00:51:52,920 --> 00:51:56,120
Speaker 1: ranching cattle operation with a friend. You're going through this.

990
00:51:56,719 --> 00:51:59,560
Speaker 1: You have a regular routine. You have to get meat

991
00:51:59,600 --> 00:52:02,080
Speaker 1: to the book, sure, to make money, to survive, to

992
00:52:02,160 --> 00:52:04,879
Speaker 1: keep this company. And in one of these journeys, I'm

993
00:52:04,920 --> 00:52:09,960
Speaker 1: telling your sitting there, No, this is great, just sit there, um.

994
00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:11,759
Speaker 1: And as I'm reading this, like you're going through this

995
00:52:11,760 --> 00:52:15,719
Speaker 1: story where you're hauling heifers into the butcher like I

996
00:52:15,719 --> 00:52:18,240
Speaker 1: said earlier, and you get you get to thinking about

997
00:52:18,680 --> 00:52:23,960
Speaker 1: the killing. Um, can you describe the story where you're

998
00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:26,480
Speaker 1: you're whispering things to the cows and the butcher's Like

999
00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:29,640
Speaker 1: what you say? Taking sure that little moment? I mean,

1000
00:52:30,360 --> 00:52:32,600
Speaker 1: I think what this all comes back down to, is

1001
00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:35,640
Speaker 1: is that the thing that allows you to sustain an

1002
00:52:35,640 --> 00:52:39,520
Speaker 1: agricultural life is balanced. And the way that we set

1003
00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:43,719
Speaker 1: up um initially set up our business, uh didn't really

1004
00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:45,400
Speaker 1: have it, you know. So what we were doing is

1005
00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:47,720
Speaker 1: we were finishing cattle that we got from other places.

1006
00:52:48,200 --> 00:52:52,240
Speaker 1: And from just a purely emotional standpoint, I always enjoyed

1007
00:52:52,239 --> 00:52:54,759
Speaker 1: the balance between life and death on a ranch. You know,

1008
00:52:54,840 --> 00:52:58,120
Speaker 1: for every for every one that you had to take

1009
00:52:58,160 --> 00:53:00,799
Speaker 1: to the butcher, you're also getting who enjoy a calf

1010
00:53:00,880 --> 00:53:03,440
Speaker 1: being born, and that kind of hope and that you know,

1011
00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:05,799
Speaker 1: open endedness. And so there was some sort of a

1012
00:53:05,800 --> 00:53:09,200
Speaker 1: thing where you know, there's there's a weight in killing,

1013
00:53:09,400 --> 00:53:14,040
Speaker 1: in being the person who creates the meat for other people. Um,

1014
00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:15,880
Speaker 1: and we should I always think we should look at

1015
00:53:15,880 --> 00:53:18,879
Speaker 1: that in the face, you know. And and I think

1016
00:53:18,880 --> 00:53:21,960
Speaker 1: this is the thing I've I've always wanted to say

1017
00:53:21,960 --> 00:53:24,759
Speaker 1: to hunters and rank, you know, people who produce meat

1018
00:53:24,800 --> 00:53:28,479
Speaker 1: one way or another, is you know, looking we don't

1019
00:53:28,480 --> 00:53:30,720
Speaker 1: lose anything by looking at this in the in the face.

1020
00:53:31,200 --> 00:53:37,400
Speaker 1: We should understand that that you know, killing does damage. Um, yeah,

1021
00:53:37,440 --> 00:53:39,960
Speaker 1: you know, like killing. If if we try to look

1022
00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:43,440
Speaker 1: at it as something without a darker side. We're kidding ourselves,

1023
00:53:43,480 --> 00:53:45,359
Speaker 1: and it will do damage to us. I really think

1024
00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:49,520
Speaker 1: it will. UM. But so I was taking these um

1025
00:53:49,640 --> 00:53:52,160
Speaker 1: animals that we had raised or you know, finished, for

1026
00:53:52,200 --> 00:53:55,399
Speaker 1: a period of months every week and I just kind

1027
00:53:55,400 --> 00:53:59,520
Speaker 1: of got to this point where UM, occasionally you would

1028
00:53:59,560 --> 00:54:02,799
Speaker 1: take and she would absolutely know what was going on

1029
00:54:03,600 --> 00:54:06,040
Speaker 1: because we you know, we worked really we worked with

1030
00:54:06,040 --> 00:54:08,160
Speaker 1: these animals in a really low stress way. And what

1031
00:54:08,200 --> 00:54:10,040
Speaker 1: that meant was we could get them to go on trailers,

1032
00:54:10,040 --> 00:54:13,719
Speaker 1: outer trailers really easily. You know, they lived a very

1033
00:54:13,760 --> 00:54:17,239
Speaker 1: happy life. UM. And the story you're mentioning is when

1034
00:54:17,280 --> 00:54:22,200
Speaker 1: I brought a trailer load of of heferets so older

1035
00:54:22,440 --> 00:54:26,000
Speaker 1: is kind of three year old cows that didn't breed back,

1036
00:54:26,320 --> 00:54:28,880
Speaker 1: brought in this this load and was pulled up to

1037
00:54:28,880 --> 00:54:32,880
Speaker 1: the back end of a local processing house. They just

1038
00:54:32,960 --> 00:54:35,760
Speaker 1: would not get out. I mean, you know, they smelled

1039
00:54:35,760 --> 00:54:39,360
Speaker 1: the blood, they saw. I mean, at least one of

1040
00:54:39,360 --> 00:54:42,000
Speaker 1: them knew exactly what was in the offing, and I

1041
00:54:42,040 --> 00:54:45,480
Speaker 1: had to use you know, force and and basically shout

1042
00:54:45,520 --> 00:54:48,120
Speaker 1: and slap them out of there, which was a thing

1043
00:54:48,160 --> 00:54:51,920
Speaker 1: that really stuck with me. UM. And I think It's

1044
00:54:51,960 --> 00:54:54,359
Speaker 1: also like you were talking about Lonesome Dove, and this

1045
00:54:54,400 --> 00:54:56,759
Speaker 1: is sort of like a modern version because there's like

1046
00:54:56,800 --> 00:54:59,640
Speaker 1: a couple of buddies decided to do this thing and

1047
00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:02,080
Speaker 1: and it was best case scenario and it still is.

1048
00:55:02,160 --> 00:55:05,200
Speaker 1: You know, Um, we're producing meat that was grass fed,

1049
00:55:05,239 --> 00:55:09,080
Speaker 1: grass finished, without hormones and antibiotics. This is after the

1050
00:55:09,120 --> 00:55:12,160
Speaker 1: sun ranch. To know, these large operations, you've kind of

1051
00:55:12,200 --> 00:55:15,840
Speaker 1: like graduated to something that you're comfortable with, right and

1052
00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:18,120
Speaker 1: so so like to bring it all back around, I mean,

1053
00:55:18,600 --> 00:55:20,920
Speaker 1: I was I felt like I was doing this the

1054
00:55:20,920 --> 00:55:23,280
Speaker 1: best way I possibly could, and yet I still felt

1055
00:55:23,760 --> 00:55:27,280
Speaker 1: this imbalance. And I also had had these experiences where

1056
00:55:27,920 --> 00:55:31,720
Speaker 1: you know, I had been had needed to kill large

1057
00:55:31,719 --> 00:55:35,000
Speaker 1: carnivores in the course of doing ranch work, and I

1058
00:55:35,000 --> 00:55:38,440
Speaker 1: always felt this strong attachment to the wild creatures, particularly

1059
00:55:38,520 --> 00:55:41,640
Speaker 1: difficult ones like wolves. Um, and I wanted to be

1060
00:55:41,719 --> 00:55:44,120
Speaker 1: on a slightly It's not that I wanted to be

1061
00:55:44,160 --> 00:55:46,440
Speaker 1: on a different side, you know, because we graze cattle

1062
00:55:46,440 --> 00:55:48,719
Speaker 1: on our place now. Um, It's just that I wanted

1063
00:55:48,719 --> 00:55:51,120
Speaker 1: to look at it from a slightly different perspective. So

1064
00:55:51,160 --> 00:55:54,799
Speaker 1: I found this opportunity to work um for this group

1065
00:55:54,840 --> 00:55:56,799
Speaker 1: called people in carnivores, and they looked at me as

1066
00:55:56,840 --> 00:55:59,200
Speaker 1: a good candidate because I had spent all this time

1067
00:55:59,800 --> 00:56:02,440
Speaker 1: ray itching in places that had lots of lions and

1068
00:56:02,480 --> 00:56:06,560
Speaker 1: wolves and grizzlies, and so I knew that perspective of

1069
00:56:06,680 --> 00:56:10,440
Speaker 1: how the two species could coexist and how they could collide. Yeah,

1070
00:56:10,640 --> 00:56:12,960
Speaker 1: I think that's a great set up for the rest

1071
00:56:12,960 --> 00:56:17,640
Speaker 1: of the story, because that's it's having not having not

1072
00:56:17,719 --> 00:56:19,840
Speaker 1: really lived in I live in this country, but I

1073
00:56:19,880 --> 00:56:21,640
Speaker 1: don't live in it the way that you have and do,

1074
00:56:22,880 --> 00:56:25,120
Speaker 1: and and very few people have had the experiences that

1075
00:56:25,160 --> 00:56:28,719
Speaker 1: you've had. Um through this whole story, right coming from

1076
00:56:28,719 --> 00:56:30,719
Speaker 1: the city, moving here and then immersing yourself in the

1077
00:56:30,719 --> 00:56:32,480
Speaker 1: way that you have. You haven't just kind of gotten

1078
00:56:32,480 --> 00:56:34,920
Speaker 1: a job and and found your way. You've kind of

1079
00:56:35,040 --> 00:56:36,759
Speaker 1: it seemed to me like you were kind of graduating

1080
00:56:36,800 --> 00:56:40,440
Speaker 1: to the next thing as you learned about how ranching works,

1081
00:56:40,440 --> 00:56:43,080
Speaker 1: and how cattle production works, and then how cattle in

1082
00:56:43,160 --> 00:56:45,600
Speaker 1: large carnivores work, and then graduate to the next part.

1083
00:56:45,680 --> 00:56:48,200
Speaker 1: So I enjoyed that part of learning about your experience

1084
00:56:48,239 --> 00:56:50,719
Speaker 1: because I think it's important. But now you get you

1085
00:56:50,760 --> 00:56:54,319
Speaker 1: find yourself working for people in carnivores trying to figure

1086
00:56:54,320 --> 00:56:56,440
Speaker 1: out a way. You know, I think if you tell

1087
00:56:56,440 --> 00:56:59,560
Speaker 1: me if I'm wrong with like coexistence is what. Yeah,

1088
00:56:59,640 --> 00:57:01,399
Speaker 1: that's the part of those folks are looking for. Yeah,

1089
00:57:01,440 --> 00:57:04,719
Speaker 1: the ideas being able to share share the landscape with

1090
00:57:04,800 --> 00:57:09,200
Speaker 1: fewer instances of conflict basically, And that's the perfect kind

1091
00:57:09,239 --> 00:57:12,080
Speaker 1: of Petri dish for that experiment. Is the mission valley

1092
00:57:12,160 --> 00:57:15,600
Speaker 1: totally and and the mission is it's a microcosm for

1093
00:57:16,400 --> 00:57:17,880
Speaker 1: you can look at the mission and you can see

1094
00:57:17,880 --> 00:57:20,280
Speaker 1: a lot of the stories that shape the American West

1095
00:57:20,600 --> 00:57:23,840
Speaker 1: UM and no discussion of the mission would be complete

1096
00:57:23,880 --> 00:57:26,840
Speaker 1: without saying that it's uh, it's the reservation of the

1097
00:57:26,840 --> 00:57:30,960
Speaker 1: Confederated Salation Coutiney tribes, and it's not the entirety of

1098
00:57:31,000 --> 00:57:34,040
Speaker 1: their uh native land. So you know, you have this,

1099
00:57:34,560 --> 00:57:37,160
Speaker 1: You have all the normal Western problems like neighbors fighting

1100
00:57:37,240 --> 00:57:42,240
Speaker 1: over water, increased crowding and subdivision, the function, the way

1101
00:57:42,280 --> 00:57:45,680
Speaker 1: that agriculture is shaping and changing the valley floor and

1102
00:57:45,720 --> 00:57:48,880
Speaker 1: how that impacts um, you know, the wild creatures. But

1103
00:57:48,920 --> 00:57:52,560
Speaker 1: then you also have superimposed on that um a history

1104
00:57:53,120 --> 00:57:57,200
Speaker 1: where Native people have been used very hard and unfairly

1105
00:57:57,800 --> 00:58:01,240
Speaker 1: and are recovering from that UM. So the Mission Valley

1106
00:58:01,320 --> 00:58:05,120
Speaker 1: just to give some like I guess, geographical context. Um,

1107
00:58:05,160 --> 00:58:08,680
Speaker 1: it's at the southern end of this enormous wild ecosystem.

1108
00:58:08,720 --> 00:58:11,000
Speaker 1: So like if you you know, in the book, I

1109
00:58:11,040 --> 00:58:12,640
Speaker 1: put it this way, if if you're a wolverine in

1110
00:58:12,640 --> 00:58:15,959
Speaker 1: the Yukon, you can head south and cross very few

1111
00:58:16,000 --> 00:58:18,280
Speaker 1: significant roads and you can end up looking out over

1112
00:58:18,320 --> 00:58:21,840
Speaker 1: the Mission Valley. Um, it's a it's connected to that

1113
00:58:22,080 --> 00:58:25,760
Speaker 1: huge ocean of wilderness that still remains to our north. Um.

1114
00:58:25,800 --> 00:58:30,080
Speaker 1: But the valley floor is extremely agricultural. I mean, it's

1115
00:58:30,120 --> 00:58:33,320
Speaker 1: like these sheer mountains that just dropped down, you know,

1116
00:58:33,320 --> 00:58:36,360
Speaker 1: it's like a wall of mountains and then a valley

1117
00:58:36,400 --> 00:58:37,960
Speaker 1: floor that might as well be. It kind of looks

1118
00:58:38,000 --> 00:58:40,440
Speaker 1: like the Midwest. It really. It's like I've never seen

1119
00:58:40,720 --> 00:58:42,640
Speaker 1: when I first laid eyes on that valley, I've never

1120
00:58:42,680 --> 00:58:44,800
Speaker 1: seen a lot of anything like it. I would it's

1121
00:58:44,840 --> 00:58:47,160
Speaker 1: like maybe in New Zealand, there's a lot like that

1122
00:58:47,200 --> 00:58:49,640
Speaker 1: when you really get this tectonic place going to work

1123
00:58:49,680 --> 00:58:53,160
Speaker 1: in a small area. But I've never I've never seen

1124
00:58:53,160 --> 00:58:55,360
Speaker 1: anything like like the gradation of all of a sudden.

1125
00:58:55,360 --> 00:58:57,840
Speaker 1: It's like boom, oh you're on a cliff and I'm

1126
00:58:58,200 --> 00:59:00,280
Speaker 1: like I think you described at some point is the

1127
00:59:00,360 --> 00:59:03,880
Speaker 1: hand maybe with fingers that are you know, almost straight up,

1128
00:59:03,960 --> 00:59:06,120
Speaker 1: and that's what it looks like. It's it's you have

1129
00:59:06,200 --> 00:59:11,440
Speaker 1: these these vast wilderness you know, these mountainous clift wildernesses

1130
00:59:11,520 --> 00:59:16,640
Speaker 1: that lead into cropland it's a crazy environment. Like you said,

1131
00:59:16,680 --> 00:59:18,680
Speaker 1: it's kind of like a it seems like a weird

1132
00:59:18,760 --> 00:59:22,480
Speaker 1: experimental version of cohabitation. Yeah. And what it is is

1133
00:59:22,640 --> 00:59:26,240
Speaker 1: it's a glacial landscape. So like that valley is the

1134
00:59:26,280 --> 00:59:30,320
Speaker 1: southern extreme of this enormous northern ice sheet, um. And

1135
00:59:30,360 --> 00:59:32,120
Speaker 1: you know that's what carved all this stuff, and that's

1136
00:59:32,120 --> 00:59:35,040
Speaker 1: what left the fertile soil down there. And you know,

1137
00:59:35,080 --> 00:59:37,960
Speaker 1: grizzlies and people, the tribes you know, have been part

1138
00:59:38,000 --> 00:59:41,480
Speaker 1: of that landscape, coexisting there for you know, basically since

1139
00:59:41,520 --> 00:59:44,520
Speaker 1: that last glaciation. So it's really interesting to look at

1140
00:59:45,080 --> 00:59:47,240
Speaker 1: everything that's happened in the last hundred years, you know,

1141
00:59:47,240 --> 00:59:49,600
Speaker 1: which is like all the roads, all the fences, all

1142
00:59:49,640 --> 00:59:52,360
Speaker 1: that stuff, and it's just this thin little scrim on

1143
00:59:52,440 --> 00:59:57,760
Speaker 1: top of this deeper history. Um. And what when when

1144
00:59:57,800 --> 00:59:59,720
Speaker 1: you first saw that place, you start, you know, you

1145
01:00:00,040 --> 01:00:03,520
Speaker 1: you dive kind of dive in I assume working on

1146
01:00:03,960 --> 01:00:06,200
Speaker 1: you know, was a grizzly bear as you worked on first. Yeah,

1147
01:00:06,240 --> 01:00:08,000
Speaker 1: So what I did is I went and talked to

1148
01:00:08,040 --> 01:00:11,280
Speaker 1: the tribal wildlife folks and said, what are the major

1149
01:00:11,400 --> 01:00:14,680
Speaker 1: conflict issues with your big carnivore species? And is there

1150
01:00:14,680 --> 01:00:17,960
Speaker 1: a place for me to be useful? And Stacy Corville,

1151
01:00:18,000 --> 01:00:21,440
Speaker 1: the biologist up there, um he said to me, He's like,

1152
01:00:21,680 --> 01:00:24,760
Speaker 1: it's corn and chicken. And I was And I didn't

1153
01:00:24,760 --> 01:00:27,560
Speaker 1: expect either of those two things because you know, when

1154
01:00:27,920 --> 01:00:29,760
Speaker 1: when I was working on the edge Yellowstone as a

1155
01:00:29,840 --> 01:00:33,120
Speaker 1: ranch hand or a ranch manager, I was always thinking like,

1156
01:00:33,200 --> 01:00:37,040
Speaker 1: you know, cat wolves, calves, um, you know, grizzlies getting

1157
01:00:37,040 --> 01:00:39,240
Speaker 1: into people's food in the back country, hunters running into

1158
01:00:39,240 --> 01:00:43,120
Speaker 1: grizzlies all that. But corn and chickens and and the

1159
01:00:43,560 --> 01:00:46,760
Speaker 1: Midwestern things. It's very Midwest. And that is the funny thing,

1160
01:00:46,840 --> 01:00:49,000
Speaker 1: is like you have the fertility of the Midwest, like

1161
01:00:49,040 --> 01:00:52,760
Speaker 1: the soils and the soils and the topography just like

1162
01:00:52,920 --> 01:00:55,680
Speaker 1: jammed up straight against the gnarliest mountains you've ever seen.

1163
01:00:56,240 --> 01:00:59,440
Speaker 1: And so he basically pointed me towards those two things,

1164
01:00:59,560 --> 01:01:04,280
Speaker 1: and in particular, m a family owned dairy where uh,

1165
01:01:04,400 --> 01:01:08,240
Speaker 1: grizzlies had learned to feed almost exclusively on corn and

1166
01:01:08,480 --> 01:01:10,680
Speaker 1: when the corn was right. The rancher's name is Greg,

1167
01:01:11,080 --> 01:01:15,240
Speaker 1: Greg Shock. Yeah, and Greg's a great guy and somebody

1168
01:01:15,240 --> 01:01:18,120
Speaker 1: I still have a good relationship with um and he

1169
01:01:18,600 --> 01:01:22,440
Speaker 1: tolerated all my experiments out there. But yeah, I mean

1170
01:01:22,840 --> 01:01:24,640
Speaker 1: this struck me in reading this book when you think

1171
01:01:24,640 --> 01:01:28,320
Speaker 1: about kind of how we even as hunters or biologists

1172
01:01:28,400 --> 01:01:31,760
Speaker 1: or so. While he's studying a landscape, you kind of

1173
01:01:31,840 --> 01:01:34,160
Speaker 1: run into these special situations and this is one of

1174
01:01:34,200 --> 01:01:37,760
Speaker 1: them where you you have this um, can you describe

1175
01:01:37,800 --> 01:01:39,760
Speaker 1: you know when I think when you first arrived there,

1176
01:01:39,800 --> 01:01:42,680
Speaker 1: you realize this corn issue, and then you kind of

1177
01:01:42,720 --> 01:01:44,880
Speaker 1: have to I had to kind of think of my mind,

1178
01:01:45,320 --> 01:01:49,160
Speaker 1: big fat grizzly bears alling down out of the hills,

1179
01:01:49,360 --> 01:01:52,880
Speaker 1: especially when they're hyper fagic, but which means eating a

1180
01:01:52,880 --> 01:01:56,920
Speaker 1: whole bunch um are coming down and just spending time

1181
01:01:56,960 --> 01:02:01,520
Speaker 1: in corn fields, rolling around taking naps. Yeah, I mean

1182
01:02:01,560 --> 01:02:05,880
Speaker 1: they're pretty happy in there. It's it's physiologically pretty damaging form.

1183
01:02:05,880 --> 01:02:08,800
Speaker 1: You know, their teeth kind of go to pot and um,

1184
01:02:08,840 --> 01:02:11,200
Speaker 1: they I mean they eat to excess. I mean they're

1185
01:02:11,240 --> 01:02:13,800
Speaker 1: basically in there. I really have trouble walking. These bears,

1186
01:02:14,040 --> 01:02:16,320
Speaker 1: griz gonna eat so much they can't walk. Yeah, well

1187
01:02:16,360 --> 01:02:19,360
Speaker 1: they can, they can walk, but they wattle and they

1188
01:02:19,400 --> 01:02:22,080
Speaker 1: struggle to run, and you know that it's interest, it's

1189
01:02:22,120 --> 01:02:24,320
Speaker 1: I mean, this is why all of these issues are

1190
01:02:24,320 --> 01:02:27,480
Speaker 1: so much more complex than they seem at a great distance, because,

1191
01:02:27,960 --> 01:02:31,400
Speaker 1: on the one hand, a Grizzlies like big goal in

1192
01:02:31,480 --> 01:02:34,160
Speaker 1: life is to get super fat in the fall, and

1193
01:02:34,200 --> 01:02:37,880
Speaker 1: this does accomplish that. Um on the other hand, choosing

1194
01:02:37,880 --> 01:02:40,280
Speaker 1: this food source means that they're not going to the

1195
01:02:40,280 --> 01:02:42,080
Speaker 1: peaks like they used They used to go all the

1196
01:02:42,120 --> 01:02:43,800
Speaker 1: way up to the top of the Mission range that's

1197
01:02:43,800 --> 01:02:46,920
Speaker 1: like Knife Edge, you know, giant mountain range we're just

1198
01:02:46,960 --> 01:02:50,240
Speaker 1: talking about. And they would eat army cut were moths

1199
01:02:50,280 --> 01:02:53,760
Speaker 1: and ladybugs that that came in colonies of millions and

1200
01:02:53,800 --> 01:02:56,439
Speaker 1: millions of insects, and that was their late season. Yeah,

1201
01:02:56,440 --> 01:02:59,120
Speaker 1: they got to work the burn calories, They got a

1202
01:02:59,120 --> 01:03:01,840
Speaker 1: dig to get that. It's a whole different experience, right, Yeah,

1203
01:03:01,880 --> 01:03:04,520
Speaker 1: it's very different than plucking that we're talking to food

1204
01:03:04,560 --> 01:03:07,440
Speaker 1: for bears here, I'm talking to drive through, drive through corn.

1205
01:03:07,600 --> 01:03:10,760
Speaker 1: That's what we're talking about. And it's an amazing thing

1206
01:03:10,800 --> 01:03:14,960
Speaker 1: to see what that looks like firsthand, because the corn

1207
01:03:15,360 --> 01:03:17,400
Speaker 1: You know, I didn't grow up around big corn fields,

1208
01:03:17,440 --> 01:03:20,480
Speaker 1: but when you're inside of a corn it's corn field.

1209
01:03:20,480 --> 01:03:23,160
Speaker 1: It's eerie. Yeah. That's kind of a pun too, I

1210
01:03:23,200 --> 01:03:26,200
Speaker 1: guess I can realize. Oh yeah, oh man, oh, you

1211
01:03:26,200 --> 01:03:28,480
Speaker 1: can use that and you're giving a talk later on.

1212
01:03:28,520 --> 01:03:33,440
Speaker 1: You're gonna write that down. That jokes. I'm getting good

1213
01:03:33,440 --> 01:03:35,800
Speaker 1: at that jokes late. Yeah. No, but it's it's a

1214
01:03:35,840 --> 01:03:37,760
Speaker 1: weird place to be. I mean, the light is all

1215
01:03:37,800 --> 01:03:40,320
Speaker 1: bizarre and green because it's coming through this canopy. You

1216
01:03:40,360 --> 01:03:42,600
Speaker 1: can stick your arm out and your arm disappears. Yeah.

1217
01:03:42,680 --> 01:03:44,400
Speaker 1: Just imagine if you were like, hey, listen, Grizzly Bear.

1218
01:03:44,680 --> 01:03:47,480
Speaker 1: You're gonna get into a place that feels very insulated

1219
01:03:47,560 --> 01:03:49,600
Speaker 1: from the outside world. And the ship is going to

1220
01:03:49,680 --> 01:03:52,920
Speaker 1: be full of food, right, and water because they're constantly

1221
01:03:52,960 --> 01:03:54,920
Speaker 1: irrigating it. And there you know, there's water in the

1222
01:03:54,960 --> 01:03:57,400
Speaker 1: pivot tracks. The soil doesn't soak up the water, so

1223
01:03:57,440 --> 01:03:59,960
Speaker 1: there's all this runoff and water sitting around. It's per

1224
01:04:00,240 --> 01:04:01,439
Speaker 1: for you. You go in there and you get fat,

1225
01:04:01,480 --> 01:04:03,640
Speaker 1: you come out, you're gonna be all screwed up. Like

1226
01:04:03,840 --> 01:04:06,040
Speaker 1: they so they get they get addicted to it basically,

1227
01:04:06,040 --> 01:04:08,600
Speaker 1: of course, like once they've had it, they come back,

1228
01:04:08,680 --> 01:04:10,240
Speaker 1: they try to find their way in again, and they

1229
01:04:10,280 --> 01:04:13,880
Speaker 1: stopped using natural food sources. And two things follow from that.

1230
01:04:13,960 --> 01:04:18,520
Speaker 1: One the farmer loses an unsustainable amount of corn. So

1231
01:04:18,640 --> 01:04:20,680
Speaker 1: Greg was losing like a quarter of his corn crop

1232
01:04:20,760 --> 01:04:23,600
Speaker 1: on a ninety acre field, um and so, and that

1233
01:04:23,800 --> 01:04:26,640
Speaker 1: was making it harder for him to do something that

1234
01:04:26,680 --> 01:04:29,959
Speaker 1: was already hard, which is maintain a family farm. UM.

1235
01:04:30,000 --> 01:04:32,840
Speaker 1: In the current agricultural climate, If these grizzly bears are

1236
01:04:32,880 --> 01:04:36,760
Speaker 1: eating twenty plus acres worth of corn plus acres of

1237
01:04:36,800 --> 01:04:40,280
Speaker 1: corn and and they are also um, it's bringing them

1238
01:04:40,320 --> 01:04:42,680
Speaker 1: into a place in their hungriest season where they're going

1239
01:04:42,720 --> 01:04:45,000
Speaker 1: to be in conflict with people. So you know, if

1240
01:04:45,000 --> 01:04:47,560
Speaker 1: you have bears that are coming and going from the

1241
01:04:47,600 --> 01:04:49,280
Speaker 1: low parts of the valley at that time of year,

1242
01:04:49,600 --> 01:04:52,000
Speaker 1: like you were talking about pheasant hunters, the fact that

1243
01:04:52,040 --> 01:04:56,200
Speaker 1: they're down there eating corn like that's the pheasant. Yeah,

1244
01:04:56,320 --> 01:04:58,640
Speaker 1: and crazy, but it makes a lot of sense right there.

1245
01:04:58,720 --> 01:05:02,160
Speaker 1: Hyper phagic during those time are getting fat for hibernation

1246
01:05:02,280 --> 01:05:05,240
Speaker 1: and and there's a lot of a lot of activity

1247
01:05:05,240 --> 01:05:08,680
Speaker 1: from humans, and you know, there are stories that illustrate

1248
01:05:08,680 --> 01:05:13,200
Speaker 1: how close people and particularly pheasant hunters are to grizzlies

1249
01:05:13,240 --> 01:05:15,720
Speaker 1: when they're down there. Like coller data is an amazing

1250
01:05:15,760 --> 01:05:17,880
Speaker 1: thing because we can see for some of these bears

1251
01:05:17,920 --> 01:05:20,760
Speaker 1: exactly where they went, you know, like when they paused,

1252
01:05:21,160 --> 01:05:24,160
Speaker 1: what they did. And Stacy tells me this story of

1253
01:05:24,160 --> 01:05:26,920
Speaker 1: of being on the edge of corn field tracking a

1254
01:05:26,960 --> 01:05:29,800
Speaker 1: sow that's in there, and have a bunch of pheasant

1255
01:05:29,840 --> 01:05:31,600
Speaker 1: hunters pull up and say we're gonna push this field,

1256
01:05:31,720 --> 01:05:33,439
Speaker 1: and he said that there's a grizzly bear in there,

1257
01:05:33,840 --> 01:05:35,680
Speaker 1: and they said, we don't care, and they wandered it.

1258
01:05:35,760 --> 01:05:38,280
Speaker 1: So he could see he could see the guys moving

1259
01:05:38,320 --> 01:05:41,160
Speaker 1: through this field, and he could see with the telemetry

1260
01:05:41,200 --> 01:05:43,800
Speaker 1: the bear basically walking a circle and staying out in

1261
01:05:43,880 --> 01:05:46,160
Speaker 1: front of them, staying away from them, waiting untill they

1262
01:05:46,160 --> 01:05:49,040
Speaker 1: were done with their hunt, and then continuing. Now, that

1263
01:05:49,240 --> 01:05:52,560
Speaker 1: is not Please don't take that as like it's not

1264
01:05:52,640 --> 01:05:54,840
Speaker 1: a strategy. That's not a strategy. That bear is not

1265
01:05:54,880 --> 01:05:58,040
Speaker 1: a blocker for your peasant, right. What it illustrates is

1266
01:05:58,080 --> 01:06:00,640
Speaker 1: how close these animals are living with and how good

1267
01:06:00,680 --> 01:06:03,400
Speaker 1: they are at avoiding conflict most of the time. Um

1268
01:06:03,480 --> 01:06:06,320
Speaker 1: and that's that's I think, as much as anything else,

1269
01:06:06,920 --> 01:06:09,200
Speaker 1: why we have such an obligation to do our part

1270
01:06:09,480 --> 01:06:11,960
Speaker 1: to limit that conflict and probably not to push that

1271
01:06:12,000 --> 01:06:16,560
Speaker 1: particular field at that particular time. That's a brave souls. Yeah,

1272
01:06:16,720 --> 01:06:18,960
Speaker 1: I had great, that's one word for stupid. Yeah, it

1273
01:06:18,960 --> 01:06:21,480
Speaker 1: would be another one. Yeahah, there's there. There's not a

1274
01:06:21,480 --> 01:06:24,600
Speaker 1: lot of meat on those pheasants. You really know, Yeah,

1275
01:06:24,640 --> 01:06:27,120
Speaker 1: you're really going for the experience. Yeah, I mean, I

1276
01:06:27,160 --> 01:06:30,160
Speaker 1: think again, this all the beauty and this is the

1277
01:06:30,240 --> 01:06:33,600
Speaker 1: kind of all illustrates what you do now for a living.

1278
01:06:34,600 --> 01:06:37,640
Speaker 1: And what I think is is I often in the

1279
01:06:37,680 --> 01:06:40,640
Speaker 1: past in these conversations have missed which is just like,

1280
01:06:40,720 --> 01:06:43,680
Speaker 1: stop talking about the debate in the in the g

1281
01:06:43,920 --> 01:06:46,800
Speaker 1: y e. Stop talking about the grated yellowstone talk. Stop

1282
01:06:46,840 --> 01:06:51,120
Speaker 1: talking about whether grizzly bears can interconnect their populations, which

1283
01:06:51,200 --> 01:06:53,600
Speaker 1: become like the points in a debate about a thing,

1284
01:06:54,600 --> 01:06:56,600
Speaker 1: and in this case about you know, grizzy beard hunting,

1285
01:06:57,400 --> 01:06:59,960
Speaker 1: and erase that for a moment and then look, just look,

1286
01:07:00,040 --> 01:07:04,439
Speaker 1: get how these two things can happen, how cohabitation can happen. Yeah,

1287
01:07:04,600 --> 01:07:06,080
Speaker 1: and you've kind of got a fish bowl of that

1288
01:07:06,640 --> 01:07:09,520
Speaker 1: you've a lot of time the yeah, great microcosm for

1289
01:07:09,600 --> 01:07:12,760
Speaker 1: some bigger things. And also, you know, I think I'm

1290
01:07:12,800 --> 01:07:15,480
Speaker 1: trying really hard in this book to draw people's attention

1291
01:07:15,520 --> 01:07:18,600
Speaker 1: to the stories of individual animals, because it is it's

1292
01:07:18,600 --> 01:07:21,120
Speaker 1: really tempting to step back and say, like, Okay, these

1293
01:07:21,120 --> 01:07:23,120
Speaker 1: bears are dots on the landscape, you know, their colored

1294
01:07:23,200 --> 01:07:25,920
Speaker 1: color data dots. But if you start looking at the

1295
01:07:26,000 --> 01:07:29,760
Speaker 1: life of anyone bear, if you start looking at you know,

1296
01:07:30,080 --> 01:07:32,120
Speaker 1: if you have that color data to see what they did,

1297
01:07:32,160 --> 01:07:35,880
Speaker 1: what they encountered, what challenges they faced, you start to

1298
01:07:35,960 --> 01:07:38,640
Speaker 1: appreciate them a lot more and you start to recognize

1299
01:07:38,960 --> 01:07:41,640
Speaker 1: that the stories that wildlife are living out, you know,

1300
01:07:41,640 --> 01:07:44,280
Speaker 1: whether it's a bear or you know, it's the skunk

1301
01:07:44,360 --> 01:07:48,640
Speaker 1: in the back pasture, like their heroic stories, they face

1302
01:07:48,760 --> 01:07:52,560
Speaker 1: these really difficult ways of getting by and when it

1303
01:07:52,600 --> 01:07:55,560
Speaker 1: goes wrong, it's tragic and so like that's as much

1304
01:07:55,560 --> 01:07:57,840
Speaker 1: as anything. That's what I want people to understand is

1305
01:07:57,840 --> 01:08:00,560
Speaker 1: that if you start because they crazy, so I was.

1306
01:08:00,640 --> 01:08:02,240
Speaker 1: I was sort of tracking on the story of this

1307
01:08:02,280 --> 01:08:04,760
Speaker 1: bear named Millie. Was the sal that had come for

1308
01:08:04,880 --> 01:08:06,840
Speaker 1: years and years to the crop, had raised all these

1309
01:08:06,840 --> 01:08:10,040
Speaker 1: different leaders of cub cubs. So she was a genetically

1310
01:08:10,040 --> 01:08:13,360
Speaker 1: significant bear and one that was living pretty darn well

1311
01:08:13,360 --> 01:08:15,919
Speaker 1: with people, and she came to a really rough end

1312
01:08:16,600 --> 01:08:19,080
Speaker 1: because of her proximity to us and because of the

1313
01:08:19,120 --> 01:08:22,479
Speaker 1: way we were, you know, because of the choices people

1314
01:08:22,479 --> 01:08:26,320
Speaker 1: who lived around there made. Um. I used to think

1315
01:08:26,320 --> 01:08:29,439
Speaker 1: that her story was exceptional and and I used to

1316
01:08:29,479 --> 01:08:32,360
Speaker 1: look at that and think, like, Wow, what a crazy like,

1317
01:08:32,400 --> 01:08:34,880
Speaker 1: what a crazy life that bear lived. But as you

1318
01:08:34,920 --> 01:08:37,120
Speaker 1: get closer to it, you realize they're all living lives

1319
01:08:37,160 --> 01:08:39,040
Speaker 1: like that. I mean, they're all they all have like

1320
01:08:39,160 --> 01:08:43,320
Speaker 1: near misses from big old semi trucks, and that's it.

1321
01:08:43,439 --> 01:08:47,599
Speaker 1: Like when you know, I don't get that. I don't

1322
01:08:47,600 --> 01:08:49,439
Speaker 1: like to get on the stump about hunting, like I said,

1323
01:08:49,439 --> 01:08:51,160
Speaker 1: I don't hunger the bears, but that I feel like

1324
01:08:51,200 --> 01:08:54,320
Speaker 1: that in hunting, I feel like I go scout, I

1325
01:08:54,360 --> 01:08:57,680
Speaker 1: find an animal. I watched that animal. I hope to

1326
01:08:57,680 --> 01:09:00,000
Speaker 1: find that animal again, at least at the very least.

1327
01:09:00,040 --> 01:09:01,640
Speaker 1: It's my job as a hunter to understand what that

1328
01:09:01,640 --> 01:09:04,760
Speaker 1: animals going through, where where it's gonna be, why it's

1329
01:09:04,760 --> 01:09:07,280
Speaker 1: going to be there, and then make that decision, much

1330
01:09:07,280 --> 01:09:09,160
Speaker 1: like you had to do with a heifer, make that

1331
01:09:09,240 --> 01:09:13,280
Speaker 1: decision to take to take that animal's life, and there's

1332
01:09:13,320 --> 01:09:18,200
Speaker 1: like the relationship there. It grows me and my empathy

1333
01:09:18,360 --> 01:09:20,639
Speaker 1: in a weird way. This is so hard to explain

1334
01:09:20,680 --> 01:09:23,040
Speaker 1: to someone. But then, but it makes sense if you've

1335
01:09:23,320 --> 01:09:25,640
Speaker 1: if you've known a corner of it, if you've seen it,

1336
01:09:25,960 --> 01:09:28,680
Speaker 1: you're seeing to me, like growing empathy through it. With

1337
01:09:28,720 --> 01:09:31,240
Speaker 1: tracking something and then killing it makes sense to you.

1338
01:09:31,479 --> 01:09:34,600
Speaker 1: I'm sure, even as a rancher makes sense. Um. But

1339
01:09:34,640 --> 01:09:37,519
Speaker 1: then you start to just get into separate the hunting

1340
01:09:37,520 --> 01:09:39,479
Speaker 1: for for a minute, because I'm sure when you're tracking

1341
01:09:39,520 --> 01:09:43,240
Speaker 1: Millie you weren't really too worried about hunters. There's no hunting,

1342
01:09:43,320 --> 01:09:46,479
Speaker 1: so you don't worried about it. Um. But but then

1343
01:09:46,520 --> 01:09:48,880
Speaker 1: you just have people trying to make a living. You know,

1344
01:09:49,000 --> 01:09:51,160
Speaker 1: Greg is a you know, I guess you could say

1345
01:09:51,160 --> 01:09:54,479
Speaker 1: a small dairy farmer. Um. His daughter is involved in

1346
01:09:54,520 --> 01:09:57,439
Speaker 1: a lot of this. She was earlier in your life. Yeah,

1347
01:09:58,320 --> 01:10:01,120
Speaker 1: And he's just a regular seems like a regular guy.

1348
01:10:01,120 --> 01:10:03,080
Speaker 1: I never met him, read about him, but it seems

1349
01:10:03,080 --> 01:10:06,040
Speaker 1: like a regular guy. And you start kind of the

1350
01:10:06,400 --> 01:10:10,639
Speaker 1: book and talk about Millie. Um when you collared her

1351
01:10:10,760 --> 01:10:14,000
Speaker 1: for the first time, correct, right. Um, So just when

1352
01:10:14,000 --> 01:10:17,280
Speaker 1: Stacy called Stacy, the biologists and Greg and yourself went out,

1353
01:10:17,920 --> 01:10:20,880
Speaker 1: um tranctor put a collar on it. Just kind of

1354
01:10:20,880 --> 01:10:26,120
Speaker 1: describe that moment, getting to see that play out, um,

1355
01:10:26,160 --> 01:10:29,080
Speaker 1: and and what it meant to you. I wasn't there

1356
01:10:29,080 --> 01:10:32,640
Speaker 1: for that. I was writing that based on interviews with

1357
01:10:32,640 --> 01:10:37,160
Speaker 1: Stacy and and Greg. Um. But you know what from

1358
01:10:37,160 --> 01:10:40,400
Speaker 1: what they were telling me about that, UM, you know

1359
01:10:41,000 --> 01:10:42,840
Speaker 1: she was actually I mean, this is again like it.

1360
01:10:43,080 --> 01:10:44,960
Speaker 1: You know, it's this thing that seems exceptional, but it's

1361
01:10:45,000 --> 01:10:47,640
Speaker 1: kind of an average day for those guys because they

1362
01:10:47,720 --> 01:10:51,599
Speaker 1: they stay. Stacy in particular, you know, snares and and

1363
01:10:51,720 --> 01:10:54,439
Speaker 1: tags a lot of bears. But um, yeah, that she

1364
01:10:54,520 --> 01:10:57,960
Speaker 1: was you know aggressive, you know against the snare and

1365
01:10:58,040 --> 01:11:00,519
Speaker 1: took a while to sedata. It is actually when of

1366
01:11:00,520 --> 01:11:04,080
Speaker 1: Stacy's first UM. He wasn't as experienced at it back then,

1367
01:11:04,120 --> 01:11:06,760
Speaker 1: and it was one of his first UM times. I

1368
01:11:06,840 --> 01:11:09,120
Speaker 1: think he was sort of taking the lead on the

1369
01:11:09,120 --> 01:11:11,680
Speaker 1: sedation of the bear, which is a really complicated thing

1370
01:11:11,720 --> 01:11:14,360
Speaker 1: because you're you're trying to I mean, obviously you have

1371
01:11:14,439 --> 01:11:18,920
Speaker 1: to knock that animal out pretty significantly, UM, but you're

1372
01:11:18,960 --> 01:11:22,000
Speaker 1: doing it by you know, like I have helped uh

1373
01:11:22,200 --> 01:11:25,200
Speaker 1: sedate a number of large carnivores, and it's always kind

1374
01:11:25,200 --> 01:11:27,200
Speaker 1: of iffy because you're you know, if you use a dart,

1375
01:11:27,400 --> 01:11:30,400
Speaker 1: you're wondering, like how well did the plunger on the

1376
01:11:30,479 --> 01:11:34,120
Speaker 1: dart inject this very powerful you know, Uh, I don't

1377
01:11:34,120 --> 01:11:36,760
Speaker 1: know if it's an opiate or narcotic or whatever it ketamine,

1378
01:11:36,920 --> 01:11:40,439
Speaker 1: Like how how how like how much of it did

1379
01:11:40,439 --> 01:11:43,479
Speaker 1: it get? And like how amped up is this animal

1380
01:11:43,520 --> 01:11:44,840
Speaker 1: that it will take more to knock it down? And

1381
01:11:44,880 --> 01:11:47,600
Speaker 1: then once you get it down, you have to be um,

1382
01:11:47,640 --> 01:11:50,679
Speaker 1: really careful that it doesn't die, you know. And and

1383
01:11:50,720 --> 01:11:53,439
Speaker 1: so it's a total balance and it's another one of

1384
01:11:53,439 --> 01:11:57,200
Speaker 1: these things that that builds empathy. Um. And I mean

1385
01:11:57,240 --> 01:12:00,080
Speaker 1: just to kind of hop back really quick to the

1386
01:12:01,080 --> 01:12:03,160
Speaker 1: you know, we were touching a little bit on on

1387
01:12:03,439 --> 01:12:06,120
Speaker 1: hunters and these big carnivores. Don't have you ever run

1388
01:12:06,160 --> 01:12:09,120
Speaker 1: across that book of Wolves and then by Barry Lopez?

1389
01:12:09,320 --> 01:12:11,840
Speaker 1: I have it, but I know Barry Lopez. Yeah, So

1390
01:12:12,000 --> 01:12:15,200
Speaker 1: that's a fantastic book, um, because it talks a lot

1391
01:12:15,280 --> 01:12:18,200
Speaker 1: about the ways in which we see ourselves and these

1392
01:12:18,200 --> 01:12:23,040
Speaker 1: big carnivores and particularly hunting societies um. You know, it's

1393
01:12:24,280 --> 01:12:26,040
Speaker 1: the more I know about big carnivores, and the more

1394
01:12:26,080 --> 01:12:28,120
Speaker 1: time I spend hunting in the fall, the more I

1395
01:12:28,160 --> 01:12:31,800
Speaker 1: realize how right tribes all over the world had it

1396
01:12:31,960 --> 01:12:34,120
Speaker 1: that like these, these are the animals we should look

1397
01:12:34,160 --> 01:12:36,559
Speaker 1: to for advice, you know, like that. I mean, if

1398
01:12:36,600 --> 01:12:39,240
Speaker 1: you look at the strategies. He has this great story

1399
01:12:39,280 --> 01:12:44,200
Speaker 1: about um then Nanomia people way way way North and

1400
01:12:44,320 --> 01:12:47,840
Speaker 1: the way they look at wolves as essentially like exemplars

1401
01:12:47,880 --> 01:12:50,360
Speaker 1: of different hunting behaviors. And they do that for really

1402
01:12:50,400 --> 01:12:53,120
Speaker 1: practical reasons. It's like, basically because wolves don't starve to

1403
01:12:53,200 --> 01:12:56,640
Speaker 1: death and nnami a hunters used to before they had rifles,

1404
01:12:56,800 --> 01:12:59,120
Speaker 1: and so UM, I don't know. I guess I just

1405
01:12:59,200 --> 01:13:02,840
Speaker 1: think because here in a space that's really devoted to hunting,

1406
01:13:03,240 --> 01:13:06,080
Speaker 1: I think we're kind of missing an opportunity as a

1407
01:13:06,120 --> 01:13:09,439
Speaker 1: community of people who hunt and think about wild places

1408
01:13:09,479 --> 01:13:12,679
Speaker 1: in that way, we should be looking more at these

1409
01:13:12,920 --> 01:13:16,559
Speaker 1: I think, you know, oftentimes people are really antagonistic with hunters.

1410
01:13:16,840 --> 01:13:18,960
Speaker 1: We look at it as like, you know, we were

1411
01:13:18,960 --> 01:13:20,920
Speaker 1: taking a thousand elok out of this herd, and now

1412
01:13:20,920 --> 01:13:23,400
Speaker 1: the wolves are taken this much, and that's a that's

1413
01:13:23,400 --> 01:13:26,200
Speaker 1: a loss, But having these animals on the landscape can

1414
01:13:26,240 --> 01:13:29,559
Speaker 1: actually show us a different way of going about something

1415
01:13:29,600 --> 01:13:31,720
Speaker 1: that's important to us. We can learn from them. That's

1416
01:13:31,760 --> 01:13:33,840
Speaker 1: what I'm trying to say. Yeah, I love that perspective because,

1417
01:13:33,960 --> 01:13:35,599
Speaker 1: like I was telling you probably before we hear record,

1418
01:13:35,600 --> 01:13:36,880
Speaker 1: I've had a lot of people in here that have

1419
01:13:36,920 --> 01:13:42,000
Speaker 1: a lot I've had, you know, story biologists, people that

1420
01:13:42,240 --> 01:13:45,960
Speaker 1: have spent time and wild places for decades, sixty years

1421
01:13:45,960 --> 01:13:48,080
Speaker 1: in some cases come in it's like kill all the wolves,

1422
01:13:48,360 --> 01:13:52,479
Speaker 1: you know, and I'm like, listen, man, that doesn't that

1423
01:13:52,520 --> 01:13:55,800
Speaker 1: strikes me as as so holy false. But at the

1424
01:13:55,800 --> 01:13:57,360
Speaker 1: same time, I've had people come in here like don't

1425
01:13:57,400 --> 01:14:00,479
Speaker 1: ever kill a bear again, and I'm like, well, that's

1426
01:14:00,600 --> 01:14:03,160
Speaker 1: that goes against this model of conservation we've built. It

1427
01:14:03,200 --> 01:14:05,280
Speaker 1: goes against kind of the way that we would it

1428
01:14:05,360 --> 01:14:08,400
Speaker 1: be interacting with these animals. It kind of takes doesn't

1429
01:14:08,400 --> 01:14:11,840
Speaker 1: take into account the history of the interaction here. There's

1430
01:14:11,880 --> 01:14:13,680
Speaker 1: gotta be some way in the middle of all this.

1431
01:14:14,320 --> 01:14:16,479
Speaker 1: I'm never going to go out in my lifetime. I

1432
01:14:16,520 --> 01:14:18,519
Speaker 1: don't think and kill a grizzy, but I may come

1433
01:14:18,560 --> 01:14:21,200
Speaker 1: to that if it given the choice, I may come

1434
01:14:21,240 --> 01:14:24,360
Speaker 1: to a reason why I might, but there certainly is

1435
01:14:25,520 --> 01:14:28,880
Speaker 1: a lot of um information about myself and then all

1436
01:14:28,920 --> 01:14:31,599
Speaker 1: of hunters in going through what you just said, going

1437
01:14:31,640 --> 01:14:34,240
Speaker 1: through what is our relationship to this thing? What do

1438
01:14:34,280 --> 01:14:36,720
Speaker 1: they mean for ecosystem? What kind of service do they

1439
01:14:36,720 --> 01:14:39,559
Speaker 1: provide to the ecosystem? And I think because they're so

1440
01:14:39,680 --> 01:14:42,599
Speaker 1: storied within our culture and so charismatic in many ways,

1441
01:14:43,479 --> 01:14:45,439
Speaker 1: our connection to them is never going to go away,

1442
01:14:45,720 --> 01:14:48,200
Speaker 1: and we're not going to be able to just write

1443
01:14:48,200 --> 01:14:50,240
Speaker 1: them off. I mean, the only way it goes away

1444
01:14:50,240 --> 01:14:52,439
Speaker 1: is if they do. And that's the thing that we

1445
01:14:52,479 --> 01:14:55,559
Speaker 1: really have to be careful of because one thing that

1446
01:14:55,640 --> 01:14:58,519
Speaker 1: everybody should be aware of is that this landscape of

1447
01:14:58,720 --> 01:15:01,599
Speaker 1: this like beautiful gorge, just western landscape that we all

1448
01:15:01,640 --> 01:15:04,400
Speaker 1: I mean, people with every different stripe of beliefs, every

1449
01:15:04,479 --> 01:15:07,600
Speaker 1: kind of politics, everything, we love this place. You know,

1450
01:15:07,680 --> 01:15:10,120
Speaker 1: we care about it and and one group of people

1451
01:15:10,120 --> 01:15:12,639
Speaker 1: doesn't care about it more than another. You know, everyone

1452
01:15:12,720 --> 01:15:15,800
Speaker 1: cares about this, but it's filling up. I mean, that's

1453
01:15:15,880 --> 01:15:18,000
Speaker 1: the thing that we see. Um. You know, we we

1454
01:15:18,040 --> 01:15:21,680
Speaker 1: talk a lot about you know, long term outcomes for

1455
01:15:21,720 --> 01:15:25,080
Speaker 1: these species, and so much of it depends on connectivity

1456
01:15:25,160 --> 01:15:28,360
Speaker 1: and habitat and you know, like right now, for to

1457
01:15:28,360 --> 01:15:31,000
Speaker 1: take the grizzly bears an example, Um, we have the

1458
01:15:31,040 --> 01:15:35,719
Speaker 1: Northern Continental Divide population, so that's like surrounding Bob Marshall Glacier.

1459
01:15:35,960 --> 01:15:39,280
Speaker 1: We have the Greater Yellowstone ecosystem population which is down

1460
01:15:39,280 --> 01:15:42,400
Speaker 1: in this area and they're not well connected genetically or

1461
01:15:42,400 --> 01:15:45,040
Speaker 1: connected genetically. And then we have this massive chunk of

1462
01:15:45,080 --> 01:15:48,800
Speaker 1: habitat in the Selway, bitter Root and frank Church Wilderness

1463
01:15:48,840 --> 01:15:51,720
Speaker 1: that together that's the largest chunk of intact road this

1464
01:15:51,840 --> 01:15:55,640
Speaker 1: habitat left in the lower forty eight. We have this

1465
01:15:55,720 --> 01:15:57,960
Speaker 1: opportunity right now to connect those things. And it's not

1466
01:15:58,000 --> 01:16:00,519
Speaker 1: just for grizzlies, for every you know, for the flow

1467
01:16:00,520 --> 01:16:03,960
Speaker 1: of genetic material, for every wildlife species that we want

1468
01:16:04,000 --> 01:16:07,679
Speaker 1: to persist in this region. We need to make those

1469
01:16:07,680 --> 01:16:10,799
Speaker 1: connections because people will continue to come to this place.

1470
01:16:10,960 --> 01:16:13,840
Speaker 1: And if the past is anything to judge by, we

1471
01:16:13,880 --> 01:16:17,160
Speaker 1: are not great at showing collective restraint. Like that's that's

1472
01:16:17,240 --> 01:16:19,320
Speaker 1: I mean. Think about we have a history of eradication

1473
01:16:19,880 --> 01:16:22,000
Speaker 1: these animals, and we have a thing to struggle with.

1474
01:16:22,040 --> 01:16:23,800
Speaker 1: We should be struggling with that right now. We didn't

1475
01:16:23,800 --> 01:16:25,519
Speaker 1: come here the first time like, we get height, we

1476
01:16:25,600 --> 01:16:28,479
Speaker 1: figured it out. Here's what we're gonna do. Exist we didn't.

1477
01:16:28,560 --> 01:16:30,559
Speaker 1: We came here and said And a lot of that

1478
01:16:30,600 --> 01:16:33,960
Speaker 1: comes from UM. I mean, I think it's really cool

1479
01:16:34,000 --> 01:16:36,479
Speaker 1: to talk about this in the context of hunter gathering

1480
01:16:36,640 --> 01:16:39,880
Speaker 1: societies and hunters because so much of our approach to

1481
01:16:40,040 --> 01:16:43,960
Speaker 1: carnivores in the West comes from an agricultural mindset. Right

1482
01:16:44,000 --> 01:16:46,880
Speaker 1: Prior to the agricultural mindset, there is some degree of

1483
01:16:46,920 --> 01:16:50,600
Speaker 1: competition between you know, native hunters and big carnivores, but

1484
01:16:50,680 --> 01:16:55,080
Speaker 1: there's also this this correspondence, this this notion of um

1485
01:16:55,160 --> 01:16:59,200
Speaker 1: not necessarily collaboration, but learning from each other and being

1486
01:16:59,240 --> 01:17:03,400
Speaker 1: able to better use, better hunt the landscape because of

1487
01:17:03,400 --> 01:17:05,160
Speaker 1: the other one's presence. And there are a lot of

1488
01:17:05,200 --> 01:17:07,960
Speaker 1: historical precedents for that that I'm going to leave aside

1489
01:17:07,960 --> 01:17:10,240
Speaker 1: for right now. But like in the in the West,

1490
01:17:10,280 --> 01:17:13,280
Speaker 1: we have an agricultural mindset, and what that creates is

1491
01:17:13,320 --> 01:17:17,280
Speaker 1: this duality something's mine or it's not right, something's domestic

1492
01:17:17,360 --> 01:17:19,360
Speaker 1: or it's wild, it's with me or it's against me,

1493
01:17:19,920 --> 01:17:24,240
Speaker 1: and UM, I think that we really need to examine

1494
01:17:24,280 --> 01:17:27,880
Speaker 1: that now because we're in this really weird space of

1495
01:17:28,040 --> 01:17:30,920
Speaker 1: cognitive dissonance, where like, so much of what we love

1496
01:17:30,960 --> 01:17:35,240
Speaker 1: about this place is the part that's uncontrollable, that remains wild,

1497
01:17:35,720 --> 01:17:38,000
Speaker 1: and yet we have a mythology and an approach to

1498
01:17:38,040 --> 01:17:43,639
Speaker 1: it that's entirely unsuited to preserving that space. And when

1499
01:17:43,640 --> 01:17:47,280
Speaker 1: you start to see these conflicts, it becomes real. And

1500
01:17:47,320 --> 01:17:49,800
Speaker 1: like I was reading some stuff on people in carnivores

1501
01:17:49,840 --> 01:17:52,759
Speaker 1: and like the list of things that the prescriptions for

1502
01:17:53,680 --> 01:17:56,519
Speaker 1: dealing with gritty bears in the Mission Valley. There's a

1503
01:17:56,560 --> 01:17:58,679
Speaker 1: lot of things you can do, so many things. Yeah,

1504
01:17:58,840 --> 01:18:01,679
Speaker 1: none of them involved guns. I think it's it's it's

1505
01:18:01,720 --> 01:18:04,960
Speaker 1: like I made a list here because that's bare poles

1506
01:18:05,040 --> 01:18:08,719
Speaker 1: or food storage, car carcass composting, livestock, guardian dogs, fencing,

1507
01:18:08,760 --> 01:18:13,000
Speaker 1: garbage security, scared devices, bear spray, and range riders. Yeah,

1508
01:18:13,120 --> 01:18:14,800
Speaker 1: I'm sure that's just some of the things you can do.

1509
01:18:14,960 --> 01:18:17,280
Speaker 1: That's but that's a pretty good summary of like if

1510
01:18:17,560 --> 01:18:19,320
Speaker 1: if most of us were doing those things, we have

1511
01:18:19,360 --> 01:18:21,439
Speaker 1: a lot fewer problems. That was my question. It's like

1512
01:18:21,800 --> 01:18:25,040
Speaker 1: if if if every rancher, you know, maybe there's a

1513
01:18:25,040 --> 01:18:27,040
Speaker 1: subsidies or some way, like, hey, look, I know this

1514
01:18:27,120 --> 01:18:28,439
Speaker 1: costs more to for you to do it, but you're

1515
01:18:28,439 --> 01:18:34,960
Speaker 1: also losing something with your crops and with these encounters. Um,

1516
01:18:35,160 --> 01:18:37,439
Speaker 1: do all these things? What do you think? You know,

1517
01:18:37,600 --> 01:18:39,920
Speaker 1: Let's take just a standard ranch from the mission valley

1518
01:18:39,920 --> 01:18:43,080
Speaker 1: has got. Let's say, hey, Greg, Greg, you've got ninety acres?

1519
01:18:43,240 --> 01:18:45,559
Speaker 1: You do all these things? Got all these bears coming down?

1520
01:18:45,560 --> 01:18:48,440
Speaker 1: They're habituated to this. Do all these things? Then? What

1521
01:18:48,439 --> 01:18:50,320
Speaker 1: what do you feel like is the outcome or what

1522
01:18:50,360 --> 01:18:51,840
Speaker 1: have you seen? I guess it's probably a better way

1523
01:18:51,840 --> 01:18:54,080
Speaker 1: to put it. I mean, it's all a numbers and

1524
01:18:54,200 --> 01:18:57,320
Speaker 1: statistics game, right because like, as these animals move across

1525
01:18:57,360 --> 01:19:00,600
Speaker 1: the landscape, every time they encounter and a tractant, so

1526
01:19:00,640 --> 01:19:02,759
Speaker 1: like an attractant is anything they can get a carnivorre

1527
01:19:02,800 --> 01:19:06,000
Speaker 1: into trouble, you know, like a like a carcass hanging

1528
01:19:06,000 --> 01:19:09,960
Speaker 1: in a garage, and attractant unsecured garbage, chickens a corn field.

1529
01:19:10,000 --> 01:19:13,000
Speaker 1: All of those are things where they can cause a

1530
01:19:13,000 --> 01:19:17,360
Speaker 1: collision between humans and the animal. Every time the animals

1531
01:19:17,400 --> 01:19:19,800
Speaker 1: move through the landscape and and it encounters one of those,

1532
01:19:20,240 --> 01:19:23,439
Speaker 1: it basically rolls the dice, right, like it might get

1533
01:19:23,439 --> 01:19:25,599
Speaker 1: suckered into eating that garbage. And if it does it's

1534
01:19:25,600 --> 01:19:26,840
Speaker 1: going to get used to doing that, do it in

1535
01:19:26,880 --> 01:19:29,639
Speaker 1: the future, or it might go on by So basically

1536
01:19:29,680 --> 01:19:32,400
Speaker 1: the way we look at it is to whatever extent

1537
01:19:32,479 --> 01:19:36,480
Speaker 1: we can, we decrease the number and intensity of attractance

1538
01:19:36,520 --> 01:19:39,479
Speaker 1: on the landscape. And if and I mean the hard

1539
01:19:39,520 --> 01:19:41,559
Speaker 1: thing is, like you could do a lot of things

1540
01:19:41,680 --> 01:19:44,080
Speaker 1: right and things can still go sideways on you because

1541
01:19:44,120 --> 01:19:47,760
Speaker 1: animals are individuals, and animals carry with them the behaviors

1542
01:19:47,760 --> 01:19:50,200
Speaker 1: that they learn elsewhere. So like you know, to look

1543
01:19:50,200 --> 01:19:52,679
Speaker 1: at wolves as an example, if you have a wolf

1544
01:19:52,720 --> 01:19:56,160
Speaker 1: that's really dialed in on killing calves, it's going to

1545
01:19:56,280 --> 01:19:58,960
Speaker 1: want to keep killing calves. There's I mean, there's very

1546
01:19:59,479 --> 01:20:02,439
Speaker 1: we don't have. We have some tools that can make

1547
01:20:02,479 --> 01:20:06,200
Speaker 1: it harder for them to do that. We have UM

1548
01:20:06,439 --> 01:20:12,000
Speaker 1: livestock guardian dogs, which are phenomenally useful and effective. UM

1549
01:20:12,040 --> 01:20:15,400
Speaker 1: we have fencing solutions, both temporary and permanent. But like,

1550
01:20:15,479 --> 01:20:18,479
Speaker 1: it's very hard. You can't guarantee that things will work

1551
01:20:18,520 --> 01:20:21,200
Speaker 1: out well, but you can increase the likelihood of them

1552
01:20:21,240 --> 01:20:25,639
Speaker 1: going well and decrease the likelihood of like really predictable problems. Yeah,

1553
01:20:25,640 --> 01:20:27,880
Speaker 1: and I think, um, I was trying to pull up

1554
01:20:27,920 --> 01:20:30,000
Speaker 1: here because I just started to retail of the US

1555
01:20:30,040 --> 01:20:33,160
Speaker 1: fish and wildlife. They do some conflict studies and look

1556
01:20:33,160 --> 01:20:35,759
Speaker 1: at the six recovery regions that we're looking at for bears,

1557
01:20:37,200 --> 01:20:39,040
Speaker 1: in its totality, what do you think is the most

1558
01:20:39,040 --> 01:20:42,559
Speaker 1: common thing that they're looking at. I know, I was like,

1559
01:20:42,680 --> 01:20:45,120
Speaker 1: in terms of conflict, In terms of conflict, well, it's

1560
01:20:45,280 --> 01:20:47,680
Speaker 1: it's different for each of those. You know, you were

1561
01:20:47,680 --> 01:20:52,280
Speaker 1: talking about the you know, the main recovery regions. Um,

1562
01:20:52,479 --> 01:20:54,600
Speaker 1: you know, it's different in each one. I think, you know,

1563
01:20:54,680 --> 01:20:58,679
Speaker 1: crops that kind of conflict. Crops huge on the front,

1564
01:20:58,920 --> 01:21:02,679
Speaker 1: the East front as bears are moving out into the prairie. Um,

1565
01:21:02,960 --> 01:21:06,920
Speaker 1: small livestock is huge anywhere you have a significant density

1566
01:21:06,920 --> 01:21:09,840
Speaker 1: of people. Um, you know, anywhere you have like x

1567
01:21:09,960 --> 01:21:15,280
Speaker 1: urban subdivisions. Um. So it's it's going to be different everywhere.

1568
01:21:15,560 --> 01:21:18,600
Speaker 1: But the one thing that's that's true across the spectrum

1569
01:21:18,880 --> 01:21:21,960
Speaker 1: is that as more people enter the landscape, the number

1570
01:21:21,960 --> 01:21:26,280
Speaker 1: of potential conflicts rises. And wherever you look, we are

1571
01:21:26,320 --> 01:21:28,920
Speaker 1: by far the largest cause of grizzly mortality. That's yeah,

1572
01:21:28,920 --> 01:21:30,519
Speaker 1: that's the next thing exactly what I was gonna say.

1573
01:21:30,560 --> 01:21:33,280
Speaker 1: I'm like, if a lot of places it's habitat for fragmentation,

1574
01:21:33,320 --> 01:21:35,120
Speaker 1: a lot of things you might you might get to

1575
01:21:35,160 --> 01:21:37,559
Speaker 1: win or kill or predation. Be sure, for Uncle it's

1576
01:21:37,560 --> 01:21:40,360
Speaker 1: being a big problem. But in this case, one of

1577
01:21:40,400 --> 01:21:42,120
Speaker 1: the reasons why your book is interesting and why this

1578
01:21:42,160 --> 01:21:45,479
Speaker 1: conversation is even even more important, is because we we

1579
01:21:45,560 --> 01:21:48,200
Speaker 1: do this. We do this, we move into a place, right,

1580
01:21:48,200 --> 01:21:50,320
Speaker 1: we're doing what we do. Bears are doing what they do. Yeah,

1581
01:21:50,400 --> 01:21:52,760
Speaker 1: this is our jam move into a place. Put in

1582
01:21:52,800 --> 01:21:55,320
Speaker 1: like twice as many roads need to be there, um,

1583
01:21:55,360 --> 01:21:58,200
Speaker 1: string up the fences necessary to demarcate our place from

1584
01:21:58,200 --> 01:22:02,360
Speaker 1: the neighbor's place. And we often do that, like in

1585
01:22:02,439 --> 01:22:04,599
Speaker 1: the in the last half of the twenty century, we

1586
01:22:04,600 --> 01:22:06,760
Speaker 1: were able to do that but not see the consequences

1587
01:22:06,800 --> 01:22:09,439
Speaker 1: of it, because if you do that in some places

1588
01:22:09,479 --> 01:22:11,960
Speaker 1: you end up with these islands that wildlife have to

1589
01:22:12,000 --> 01:22:14,680
Speaker 1: move around. If you do it everywhere, you end up

1590
01:22:14,680 --> 01:22:18,280
Speaker 1: with the wildlife on islands, and that inversion, that's what's

1591
01:22:18,320 --> 01:22:20,360
Speaker 1: that's the point that we're at right now. That's a

1592
01:22:20,360 --> 01:22:22,240
Speaker 1: good point. Yeah, I'm a good point. There's a good

1593
01:22:22,240 --> 01:22:24,760
Speaker 1: way to describe it, like where is the wildlife and

1594
01:22:24,920 --> 01:22:27,040
Speaker 1: in comparison to us, how much of the landscape have

1595
01:22:27,120 --> 01:22:29,320
Speaker 1: we taken up? Yeah? And what do they get? What's

1596
01:22:29,360 --> 01:22:32,280
Speaker 1: the island, what's the ocean? Yeah? I mean we're I'm

1597
01:22:32,280 --> 01:22:34,920
Speaker 1: not into this like you know, we are what we are,

1598
01:22:35,200 --> 01:22:36,720
Speaker 1: you know, and we do what we do. We move

1599
01:22:36,760 --> 01:22:39,799
Speaker 1: across the land. We're not as much We're not a virus,

1600
01:22:39,840 --> 01:22:41,479
Speaker 1: but we could be like a bacteria. We just like

1601
01:22:41,760 --> 01:22:44,599
Speaker 1: roll across landscapes and kind of eat it up, turn

1602
01:22:44,680 --> 01:22:47,040
Speaker 1: it up in many different ways. Well, you know what, UM,

1603
01:22:47,080 --> 01:22:50,120
Speaker 1: one of the best analogies for it. So Jamie Junkele

1604
01:22:50,360 --> 01:22:55,240
Speaker 1: is the bara biologist out of Missoula. UM. He said, Uh,

1605
01:22:55,520 --> 01:22:59,559
Speaker 1: basically he said something pretty bleak, but I think it's

1606
01:22:59,560 --> 01:23:01,479
Speaker 1: worth are in here, you know. He we were sitting

1607
01:23:01,479 --> 01:23:04,960
Speaker 1: there talking about bears and and UM he spent his

1608
01:23:05,000 --> 01:23:10,120
Speaker 1: father was this renowned Chuck juncle renowned bear biologist. UM.

1609
01:23:10,160 --> 01:23:11,880
Speaker 1: And Jamie was saying, like he said, you know, in

1610
01:23:11,920 --> 01:23:14,599
Speaker 1: fifty years, you're not going to recognize this place. He said,

1611
01:23:14,680 --> 01:23:16,639
Speaker 1: you know, Missoula is going to fill its entire valley.

1612
01:23:16,680 --> 01:23:18,519
Speaker 1: It's gonna you know, he said. And what he said

1613
01:23:18,520 --> 01:23:20,400
Speaker 1: at the end, he said, we're like a big fucking glacier.

1614
01:23:20,920 --> 01:23:23,560
Speaker 1: He's like, we use all the good low country and

1615
01:23:24,000 --> 01:23:26,640
Speaker 1: we just leave the mountaintops for the bears. And he

1616
01:23:26,680 --> 01:23:29,240
Speaker 1: looked at that as a foregone conclusion. That's where he

1617
01:23:29,280 --> 01:23:32,720
Speaker 1: and I part ways though, because I don't I mean,

1618
01:23:32,720 --> 01:23:35,599
Speaker 1: I'm young enough that I am not willing to admit

1619
01:23:35,640 --> 01:23:38,600
Speaker 1: that that is going to be the outcome here. I

1620
01:23:38,600 --> 01:23:40,599
Speaker 1: don't think it can be. And what that means is

1621
01:23:40,600 --> 01:23:43,599
Speaker 1: we have to be the first generation to do something

1622
01:23:43,600 --> 01:23:47,439
Speaker 1: that's truly revolutionary in the West, which is to leave

1623
01:23:47,479 --> 01:23:50,920
Speaker 1: this place less settled and therefore more intact than we

1624
01:23:50,960 --> 01:23:54,000
Speaker 1: got it. Like he said, there's so much so that

1625
01:23:54,360 --> 01:23:58,560
Speaker 1: millions of acres of critical habitat for lots of species,

1626
01:23:58,640 --> 01:24:00,320
Speaker 1: and we're going to decide in the next couple of

1627
01:24:00,320 --> 01:24:03,320
Speaker 1: decades what we're gonna do with that. But the difficult

1628
01:24:03,320 --> 01:24:05,080
Speaker 1: things we're not going to decide all at once. Yeah,

1629
01:24:05,240 --> 01:24:08,400
Speaker 1: We're going to decide it like one, a little time

1630
01:24:08,439 --> 01:24:10,400
Speaker 1: at a time, right, Yeah. And I think part of

1631
01:24:10,439 --> 01:24:12,880
Speaker 1: the prescription to that is exactly how you live your

1632
01:24:12,880 --> 01:24:15,120
Speaker 1: life and how others that listen to this, that our

1633
01:24:15,160 --> 01:24:16,800
Speaker 1: hunters could live their lives as well as like learn

1634
01:24:16,840 --> 01:24:19,760
Speaker 1: about landscapes, learn about the ecosystem, play your part, and

1635
01:24:19,800 --> 01:24:21,840
Speaker 1: when you get a chance to step up and share

1636
01:24:21,880 --> 01:24:24,040
Speaker 1: what you've learned. Do it, but do it in a

1637
01:24:24,040 --> 01:24:26,200
Speaker 1: pragmatic way. Do it in a way, because a lot

1638
01:24:26,200 --> 01:24:28,080
Speaker 1: of times when we get we start about this conversation

1639
01:24:28,120 --> 01:24:29,960
Speaker 1: about Grizza Beers, I think a lot of people's mind

1640
01:24:30,080 --> 01:24:34,960
Speaker 1: flips to like the environmentalists in this case, anti environmentalists, like, well,

1641
01:24:35,000 --> 01:24:38,120
Speaker 1: we're humans, don't I'm not gonna hate myself. I I

1642
01:24:38,240 --> 01:24:41,519
Speaker 1: want to make money for my family. I want to

1643
01:24:41,520 --> 01:24:43,240
Speaker 1: have a job, I want to make a life. This

1644
01:24:43,320 --> 01:24:45,800
Speaker 1: is this is who I am, what I do. I'm

1645
01:24:45,840 --> 01:24:48,600
Speaker 1: just trying to do the best I can here. It

1646
01:24:48,640 --> 01:24:50,800
Speaker 1: isn't about whether you're gonna hate yourself or not. It's

1647
01:24:50,800 --> 01:24:53,800
Speaker 1: about what do we you know, it's a it's not

1648
01:24:53,840 --> 01:24:56,400
Speaker 1: about negatives, it's about a positive. It's about what are

1649
01:24:56,400 --> 01:24:57,880
Speaker 1: we going to do for this place that we love.

1650
01:24:57,920 --> 01:25:01,120
Speaker 1: Because anybody who gets out and sees what hunters see,

1651
01:25:01,120 --> 01:25:04,920
Speaker 1: what fisherman see, um, I think you'd have to be

1652
01:25:04,960 --> 01:25:07,280
Speaker 1: pretty damn blind not to come to love this place

1653
01:25:08,000 --> 01:25:10,679
Speaker 1: right like that, Because some of the best moments I've

1654
01:25:10,920 --> 01:25:13,360
Speaker 1: had in this landscape have been when like, you know,

1655
01:25:13,400 --> 01:25:15,080
Speaker 1: if I'm after elk and it takes me some weird

1656
01:25:15,120 --> 01:25:17,960
Speaker 1: little side drainage that nobody in their right mind would

1657
01:25:18,000 --> 01:25:21,240
Speaker 1: ever walk up because it's a like awful old side hill.

1658
01:25:21,720 --> 01:25:24,640
Speaker 1: And you get to places and you realize I have

1659
01:25:24,720 --> 01:25:27,280
Speaker 1: true solitude. I have a true understanding of this place

1660
01:25:27,320 --> 01:25:29,080
Speaker 1: that I've been looking at from my window for the

1661
01:25:29,160 --> 01:25:31,800
Speaker 1: last how many years? And it matters. So I guess

1662
01:25:31,800 --> 01:25:34,120
Speaker 1: I'm saying, like, for me, that's what this is about.

1663
01:25:34,200 --> 01:25:36,519
Speaker 1: It's like, ask yourself, really, what do you love about

1664
01:25:36,560 --> 01:25:39,280
Speaker 1: this place? And what I love about it is how

1665
01:25:39,920 --> 01:25:43,479
Speaker 1: it's intact still in some places, like we have all

1666
01:25:43,640 --> 01:25:46,080
Speaker 1: the creatures and the grizz you know, the high order

1667
01:25:46,120 --> 01:25:49,120
Speaker 1: carnivores are ecologically necessary for this place to be the

1668
01:25:49,120 --> 01:25:51,000
Speaker 1: way it is. Yeah, I mean, if if you'd like

1669
01:25:51,080 --> 01:25:54,400
Speaker 1: to hunt elk, I don't think elk really can be

1670
01:25:54,439 --> 01:25:58,759
Speaker 1: elk without wolves and grizzly bears and other things. Behaviorally

1671
01:25:59,240 --> 01:26:02,080
Speaker 1: in the Yellowstone example is I mean that whole thing

1672
01:26:02,080 --> 01:26:04,679
Speaker 1: with trophic cascade. And maybe this is something you guys

1673
01:26:04,680 --> 01:26:06,000
Speaker 1: talk about a lot. We do. We talk about a

1674
01:26:06,000 --> 01:26:07,880
Speaker 1: little bit, and I think there's some pushback on trophic

1675
01:26:07,920 --> 01:26:11,240
Speaker 1: cascade that I think conceptually it makes a ship ton

1676
01:26:11,280 --> 01:26:14,200
Speaker 1: of sense to me, But I just I think about

1677
01:26:14,200 --> 01:26:17,439
Speaker 1: if you just think about you know, animals are conditional, right,

1678
01:26:17,479 --> 01:26:19,599
Speaker 1: you know when you talk about grizzly bears conditioned can

1679
01:26:19,720 --> 01:26:21,920
Speaker 1: be conditioned to eat corn in a cornfield, and that's

1680
01:26:21,920 --> 01:26:24,320
Speaker 1: not something that you traditionally would see. They're they're can do,

1681
01:26:24,439 --> 01:26:26,240
Speaker 1: They're moving around a landscape, and they can be pushed

1682
01:26:26,280 --> 01:26:29,080
Speaker 1: and pulled in different directions based on what they want. Right.

1683
01:26:29,120 --> 01:26:32,479
Speaker 1: So you have this conditional nature of an animal, and

1684
01:26:32,520 --> 01:26:35,479
Speaker 1: then you remove one of the major conditions to its

1685
01:26:35,479 --> 01:26:37,840
Speaker 1: to his life and death, which is the predation of

1686
01:26:37,880 --> 01:26:41,439
Speaker 1: these large carnivores, it's going to change what it does,

1687
01:26:41,439 --> 01:26:43,680
Speaker 1: how comfortable it is, the stress of the mothers that

1688
01:26:43,720 --> 01:26:47,439
Speaker 1: are given, like when when they drop calves in a

1689
01:26:47,520 --> 01:26:51,840
Speaker 1: lot of cases, so um or fauns, so all of that.

1690
01:26:52,160 --> 01:26:53,960
Speaker 1: So if you, if you were to as we did,

1691
01:26:54,080 --> 01:26:56,320
Speaker 1: take wolves and bears out of the equation, push them

1692
01:26:56,320 --> 01:26:58,759
Speaker 1: out of these landscapes, move in and take their habitat

1693
01:26:58,840 --> 01:27:01,760
Speaker 1: up and shoot them if they mess this, there's just

1694
01:27:01,800 --> 01:27:04,599
Speaker 1: a bigger as you said, with those large carnivores. I think,

1695
01:27:04,640 --> 01:27:06,479
Speaker 1: as you said in your book, there's two types of mountains,

1696
01:27:06,960 --> 01:27:10,240
Speaker 1: one with these things and one without. And they feel different,

1697
01:27:10,280 --> 01:27:12,960
Speaker 1: and they feel different. They feel different. And that's where like,

1698
01:27:13,240 --> 01:27:16,680
Speaker 1: because I'm not a biologist, I lack I lack the

1699
01:27:16,680 --> 01:27:20,000
Speaker 1: training that would allow me to say, you know, exactly,

1700
01:27:20,040 --> 01:27:22,920
Speaker 1: like ecologically, what are these things doing all the time.

1701
01:27:23,000 --> 01:27:24,679
Speaker 1: There are people who know that I'm just not one

1702
01:27:24,720 --> 01:27:26,439
Speaker 1: of them, but I think, yeah, you can say it

1703
01:27:26,439 --> 01:27:28,479
Speaker 1: though in general, like this is this is a big

1704
01:27:28,520 --> 01:27:33,040
Speaker 1: because these they're large carnivores and they're praying on on

1705
01:27:33,880 --> 01:27:36,680
Speaker 1: unlits and other species, like they have a huge impact

1706
01:27:36,800 --> 01:27:40,640
Speaker 1: on everything from the top to the bottom. Whether you

1707
01:27:40,640 --> 01:27:42,479
Speaker 1: call it trophics, cascade, or you just say it like that.

1708
01:27:43,000 --> 01:27:45,600
Speaker 1: I'm not a biologist either. I just say kind of

1709
01:27:45,640 --> 01:27:48,479
Speaker 1: how I perceive things. And I think you're writing in

1710
01:27:48,479 --> 01:27:50,240
Speaker 1: your book and your perspective and interesting me for that

1711
01:27:50,280 --> 01:27:52,760
Speaker 1: reason because it's not stated from I'm a biologist. I

1712
01:27:52,840 --> 01:27:55,120
Speaker 1: studied this for years. It's like I've seen it. Here's

1713
01:27:55,120 --> 01:27:59,200
Speaker 1: a description of what I've seen. Draw your own conclusion, colusion,

1714
01:27:59,320 --> 01:28:01,840
Speaker 1: and and it's one of the things like I think

1715
01:28:03,080 --> 01:28:05,439
Speaker 1: my background, you know, spending as much time as I

1716
01:28:05,479 --> 01:28:08,760
Speaker 1: have in the agricultural world, raising calves, chipping them off,

1717
01:28:09,040 --> 01:28:12,679
Speaker 1: protecting herds from these same animals you can't go through

1718
01:28:12,680 --> 01:28:17,640
Speaker 1: that without developing this weird sort of contrasting sympathy. And

1719
01:28:17,720 --> 01:28:20,200
Speaker 1: that's something I try to preserve in my writing, is

1720
01:28:20,600 --> 01:28:23,920
Speaker 1: you know, I try not to pillary people. I try

1721
01:28:23,960 --> 01:28:27,120
Speaker 1: not to you know, hold somebody up as a straw

1722
01:28:27,200 --> 01:28:30,200
Speaker 1: man of evil. You know, you gotta keep I don't know,

1723
01:28:30,240 --> 01:28:32,400
Speaker 1: I mean, I I really feel like we have some

1724
01:28:32,520 --> 01:28:35,120
Speaker 1: major challenges coming our way in this landscape, and they

1725
01:28:35,160 --> 01:28:37,800
Speaker 1: come from they come from climate change, they come from

1726
01:28:38,240 --> 01:28:41,160
Speaker 1: crowding of the landscape, they come from just like the

1727
01:28:41,200 --> 01:28:44,240
Speaker 1: accumulated mass of what's going on so far. We're gonna

1728
01:28:44,280 --> 01:28:46,479
Speaker 1: have to solve these things. And I really think that,

1729
01:28:46,560 --> 01:28:49,320
Speaker 1: like we can only talk about them if we maintain

1730
01:28:49,400 --> 01:28:53,720
Speaker 1: sympathy for people with different viewpoints. Is I mean, were fantastic?

1731
01:28:53,920 --> 01:28:55,360
Speaker 1: We need to see that. That's a great way to

1732
01:28:55,400 --> 01:28:58,200
Speaker 1: say it, Like, hey, look, the only way this works

1733
01:28:58,240 --> 01:29:01,600
Speaker 1: is if we're if we're all share the value system

1734
01:29:01,760 --> 01:29:04,439
Speaker 1: for the place the animal lives on it and what

1735
01:29:04,640 --> 01:29:07,840
Speaker 1: that requires. That's like rule, have you ever heard of

1736
01:29:07,840 --> 01:29:10,360
Speaker 1: that thing? And that one of the best versions of

1737
01:29:10,400 --> 01:29:12,960
Speaker 1: that that somebody has ever told me is Jim Stone,

1738
01:29:13,000 --> 01:29:15,880
Speaker 1: who's a rancher at the Blackfoot was saying, like, it's

1739
01:29:15,920 --> 01:29:17,840
Speaker 1: like a barbed wire fence, Like a tight wire on

1740
01:29:17,880 --> 01:29:20,840
Speaker 1: a barbed wire fence where you're gonna grab it, Like

1741
01:29:20,920 --> 01:29:23,120
Speaker 1: you can choose to grab it on the barb and

1742
01:29:23,160 --> 01:29:24,760
Speaker 1: stick a barb through your hand, or you can grab

1743
01:29:24,800 --> 01:29:27,040
Speaker 1: it on the eight percent that doesn't have barbs. And

1744
01:29:27,080 --> 01:29:28,559
Speaker 1: that's what we need to do when we talk about

1745
01:29:28,560 --> 01:29:31,320
Speaker 1: these kinds of issues is figure out, like what can

1746
01:29:31,360 --> 01:29:33,280
Speaker 1: we agree on, how can we move forward in a

1747
01:29:33,320 --> 01:29:36,280
Speaker 1: way that improves outcomes for these species and lets us

1748
01:29:36,479 --> 01:29:40,800
Speaker 1: more safely inhabit and and inhabit this landscape without wreck

1749
01:29:40,840 --> 01:29:43,880
Speaker 1: and shop. Yeah, I mean, it's it's a there's like

1750
01:29:43,920 --> 01:29:47,320
Speaker 1: a prescription here that some people I've talked to and

1751
01:29:47,360 --> 01:29:50,040
Speaker 1: we've had people in here is like, just don't leave,

1752
01:29:51,479 --> 01:29:54,000
Speaker 1: Just leave and leave more room for the grizzly bears.

1753
01:29:54,040 --> 01:29:56,000
Speaker 1: You just get out of there. Leave the room for

1754
01:29:56,040 --> 01:29:59,000
Speaker 1: the grizzly bears. They need to munch habitat. We're gonna

1755
01:29:59,040 --> 01:30:01,639
Speaker 1: do this, We're gonna do that. And I was like, man,

1756
01:30:01,920 --> 01:30:04,400
Speaker 1: that's that might be a prescription, but it's gonna have

1757
01:30:04,439 --> 01:30:07,400
Speaker 1: side effects and you're not going to sell that to people.

1758
01:30:07,520 --> 01:30:10,040
Speaker 1: There's no pragmatism. Build into that idea. It's all this

1759
01:30:10,120 --> 01:30:13,400
Speaker 1: is like pine in the sky. I hate to say emotional,

1760
01:30:13,439 --> 01:30:16,360
Speaker 1: but there's some emotion. And then I'm sure you gotta

1761
01:30:16,439 --> 01:30:19,720
Speaker 1: like what I liked about your description of it. And

1762
01:30:19,760 --> 01:30:21,759
Speaker 1: then just reading a little bit about people in carnivores,

1763
01:30:21,840 --> 01:30:24,519
Speaker 1: it's like, hey, look this is where we're at, right

1764
01:30:24,560 --> 01:30:27,040
Speaker 1: We've got a bunch of large carnivores. We've got a

1765
01:30:27,040 --> 01:30:31,360
Speaker 1: bunch of agricultural land that that can be productive both

1766
01:30:31,400 --> 01:30:36,000
Speaker 1: monetarily and for a food source. Those two things are

1767
01:30:36,040 --> 01:30:38,600
Speaker 1: probably going to remain the same. That conflict is not

1768
01:30:38,640 --> 01:30:41,120
Speaker 1: going to, like at least at this current j actually

1769
01:30:41,120 --> 01:30:43,360
Speaker 1: not gonna shrink. It's probably gonna grow. So we gotta

1770
01:30:43,560 --> 01:30:45,599
Speaker 1: get on the ground and deal with that right now. Yeah,

1771
01:30:45,640 --> 01:30:48,160
Speaker 1: I mean, we basically have to make sure that those

1772
01:30:48,200 --> 01:30:51,920
Speaker 1: agricultural lands are permeable to wildlife that's not this is

1773
01:30:51,960 --> 01:30:55,720
Speaker 1: not just carnivores, this is you know, yeah, you have

1774
01:30:55,800 --> 01:30:59,000
Speaker 1: to have you know, ungulates, you have to have carnivores

1775
01:30:59,040 --> 01:31:01,479
Speaker 1: moving across the places that are still open enough. And

1776
01:31:01,520 --> 01:31:03,800
Speaker 1: we have to we have to be really honest about

1777
01:31:03,880 --> 01:31:06,519
Speaker 1: like what's the density at which these places don't work

1778
01:31:06,560 --> 01:31:10,040
Speaker 1: either for agg or for wildlife and we need to

1779
01:31:10,040 --> 01:31:13,200
Speaker 1: stop short of developing it that density. And I mean

1780
01:31:13,240 --> 01:31:15,200
Speaker 1: one of the things that's because like I think it's

1781
01:31:15,200 --> 01:31:18,599
Speaker 1: really easy to look at it is like you know, see,

1782
01:31:18,600 --> 01:31:21,479
Speaker 1: I'm so I am the millionth Montanon. Right after I

1783
01:31:21,520 --> 01:31:23,680
Speaker 1: moved here, there was a story on empty Boil. I

1784
01:31:23,680 --> 01:31:26,080
Speaker 1: don't know, not really, but like you'll take it. I'll

1785
01:31:26,120 --> 01:31:31,040
Speaker 1: take the cash. I get right, We'll let you in.

1786
01:31:31,479 --> 01:31:33,080
Speaker 1: Um No. But like after I moved here, there was

1787
01:31:33,120 --> 01:31:37,840
Speaker 1: this MTPR or Yellowstone Public Radio story about how Montana's

1788
01:31:37,840 --> 01:31:40,280
Speaker 1: population had passed a million. And they're like, and we

1789
01:31:40,320 --> 01:31:43,120
Speaker 1: can describe the newest Montana. He's you know, it's like

1790
01:31:43,439 --> 01:31:48,360
Speaker 1: it's a young man in his early tories. It's seriously,

1791
01:31:48,360 --> 01:31:49,920
Speaker 1: they're like, it's a young man, you know, he has

1792
01:31:49,920 --> 01:31:52,640
Speaker 1: a degree and something related to conservation. They're doing this

1793
01:31:52,680 --> 01:31:55,840
Speaker 1: demographic analysis which like fit me like a glove. And

1794
01:31:55,920 --> 01:31:58,960
Speaker 1: I had this kind of moment of crisis where I

1795
01:31:59,040 --> 01:32:02,160
Speaker 1: was like, I, you know, because I part of why

1796
01:32:02,200 --> 01:32:03,600
Speaker 1: I wanted to live here, because there were less than

1797
01:32:03,640 --> 01:32:07,960
Speaker 1: a million people here. My trading card now or but

1798
01:32:08,080 --> 01:32:10,479
Speaker 1: also like am I you know, am I ruining the

1799
01:32:10,520 --> 01:32:12,320
Speaker 1: thing I love by trying to get close to it,

1800
01:32:12,760 --> 01:32:15,519
Speaker 1: and for a long time I struggled with that, and

1801
01:32:15,560 --> 01:32:19,120
Speaker 1: I think it's something worth struggling with because you put

1802
01:32:19,200 --> 01:32:21,439
Speaker 1: enough people here and it will feel very different. And

1803
01:32:21,439 --> 01:32:24,200
Speaker 1: if you ask, you know families that have been here

1804
01:32:24,240 --> 01:32:27,240
Speaker 1: for many generations, it feels really different. Now you don't

1805
01:32:27,240 --> 01:32:31,519
Speaker 1: have to look far. Colorado was being exactly. It's created

1806
01:32:31,560 --> 01:32:33,640
Speaker 1: to death in a lot of ways. But but the

1807
01:32:33,680 --> 01:32:38,080
Speaker 1: thing is, like, we also we can stave that outcome

1808
01:32:38,160 --> 01:32:40,720
Speaker 1: off for quite a ways by being smarter about the

1809
01:32:40,760 --> 01:32:43,040
Speaker 1: way we build and use land. Because we just pit

1810
01:32:43,160 --> 01:32:48,080
Speaker 1: a little way. I mean, we we have functionally zero regulation,

1811
01:32:48,320 --> 01:32:51,880
Speaker 1: or have until the very recent future recent past, um

1812
01:32:52,120 --> 01:32:55,200
Speaker 1: have had very little regulation of how and where we

1813
01:32:55,320 --> 01:32:58,360
Speaker 1: developed the landscape. And what we have to do is

1814
01:32:58,360 --> 01:33:01,200
Speaker 1: have the guts as a community to develop that kind

1815
01:33:01,240 --> 01:33:03,880
Speaker 1: of regulation before it's too late. Yeah, that that can

1816
01:33:03,920 --> 01:33:07,040
Speaker 1: often happen on a local communal level. Right, A bunch

1817
01:33:07,080 --> 01:33:09,640
Speaker 1: of farmers in the in the mission, get together and

1818
01:33:09,920 --> 01:33:11,880
Speaker 1: this is how we're gonna do it, and let's all

1819
01:33:11,920 --> 01:33:14,719
Speaker 1: be accountable for this way of doing it. Um. Every

1820
01:33:14,760 --> 01:33:17,559
Speaker 1: every guy who's ever least a property for hunting, doesn't

1821
01:33:17,560 --> 01:33:20,640
Speaker 1: matter where or owns a property like your neighbors. The

1822
01:33:20,680 --> 01:33:22,320
Speaker 1: first thing you asked before you buy it, like, what

1823
01:33:22,400 --> 01:33:25,360
Speaker 1: are the neighbors Like? Yeah, always share my values. They

1824
01:33:25,400 --> 01:33:27,439
Speaker 1: share my values, They're cool with what I'm doing. They're

1825
01:33:27,439 --> 01:33:30,920
Speaker 1: planning to put in twenty unit conduct. That's an important thing.

1826
01:33:30,960 --> 01:33:33,880
Speaker 1: But so you there's something I've kind of gone back

1827
01:33:33,920 --> 01:33:36,840
Speaker 1: and forth on the idea of of what you do

1828
01:33:36,880 --> 01:33:40,080
Speaker 1: in this book, which is kind of following individual animal,

1829
01:33:40,479 --> 01:33:42,439
Speaker 1: and I like what you've already kind of swayed my

1830
01:33:43,280 --> 01:33:46,400
Speaker 1: kind of concerned with getting because I've been, like I

1831
01:33:46,439 --> 01:33:48,439
Speaker 1: was saying earlier, my three year old and I are

1832
01:33:48,439 --> 01:33:50,960
Speaker 1: watching a lot of like Planet Earth and watching a

1833
01:33:50,960 --> 01:33:53,640
Speaker 1: lot of Disney kind of like Follow the Cheetahs, and

1834
01:33:53,640 --> 01:33:55,880
Speaker 1: the cheating gets a name and the kids get a name,

1835
01:33:56,000 --> 01:33:58,680
Speaker 1: and then there's an evil Cheeta across the river, and

1836
01:33:58,760 --> 01:34:02,080
Speaker 1: I'm like, man, boy, that's tough. That's a tough way

1837
01:34:02,080 --> 01:34:05,680
Speaker 1: to approach naming something, giving it kind of human like

1838
01:34:05,800 --> 01:34:08,080
Speaker 1: characteristics and then and then telling its story in that way.

1839
01:34:08,120 --> 01:34:11,559
Speaker 1: That's tough for me. I like that it relates us

1840
01:34:11,560 --> 01:34:12,800
Speaker 1: to the animal in such a way that we can

1841
01:34:12,880 --> 01:34:16,160
Speaker 1: care about it, but that seems like could become unhealthy

1842
01:34:16,520 --> 01:34:18,559
Speaker 1: if we take it too far because of the emotional

1843
01:34:18,600 --> 01:34:21,760
Speaker 1: attachment component. Yeah, yeah, because we're you know, because we're

1844
01:34:21,760 --> 01:34:25,799
Speaker 1: really trying, really, you know, trying to anthropomorphize these animals

1845
01:34:25,840 --> 01:34:28,519
Speaker 1: in a way that makes us care, but maybe care

1846
01:34:28,560 --> 01:34:30,400
Speaker 1: in the wrong way, or at least care but relate

1847
01:34:30,479 --> 01:34:32,920
Speaker 1: to them in the wrong way. So that's my concern,

1848
01:34:33,160 --> 01:34:34,760
Speaker 1: Like when we name a bear and we follow it.

1849
01:34:34,800 --> 01:34:36,840
Speaker 1: But as I'm going through your book and as I'm

1850
01:34:36,880 --> 01:34:38,760
Speaker 1: hearing you talk, it's not what you're doing. But I

1851
01:34:38,840 --> 01:34:40,880
Speaker 1: just wanted to bring that up. I think that's a

1852
01:34:41,000 --> 01:34:43,479
Speaker 1: legitimate thing to talk about because I I think about

1853
01:34:43,479 --> 01:34:47,960
Speaker 1: that issue about anthropomorphizing animals a lot, because I write

1854
01:34:47,960 --> 01:34:51,479
Speaker 1: about animals, and I write about individual animals. I mean,

1855
01:34:51,520 --> 01:34:54,160
Speaker 1: I think one of the I think one of the

1856
01:34:54,240 --> 01:34:57,880
Speaker 1: mistakes that we make often is that we look at

1857
01:34:57,920 --> 01:35:00,960
Speaker 1: an animal when somebody describes it as an individual, and

1858
01:35:01,000 --> 01:35:04,839
Speaker 1: we think that's anthromorphizing, right, Like by ascribing to an animal,

1859
01:35:05,280 --> 01:35:07,400
Speaker 1: you know, a desire to be here on the landscape,

1860
01:35:07,760 --> 01:35:11,320
Speaker 1: you know, a story that involves making choices we that

1861
01:35:11,360 --> 01:35:14,400
Speaker 1: actually exposes something that we're mistaken about or that you know,

1862
01:35:14,439 --> 01:35:16,360
Speaker 1: we assume that we are the ones making those kind

1863
01:35:16,360 --> 01:35:19,639
Speaker 1: of choices and I I'm glad you mentioned that, because

1864
01:35:19,640 --> 01:35:22,479
Speaker 1: I obsess about it and I and I have to

1865
01:35:22,520 --> 01:35:25,120
Speaker 1: come to some sort of, I don't know, some sort

1866
01:35:25,120 --> 01:35:28,439
Speaker 1: of a conclusion about how I can talk about these

1867
01:35:28,479 --> 01:35:31,400
Speaker 1: animals in a way that will let people understand what's

1868
01:35:31,400 --> 01:35:34,160
Speaker 1: so profoundly interesting about them, which is that they are

1869
01:35:34,240 --> 01:35:37,120
Speaker 1: making these choices, and that that that two bearers based

1870
01:35:37,120 --> 01:35:38,960
Speaker 1: with the same thing will not make the same choice.

1871
01:35:39,600 --> 01:35:42,479
Speaker 1: And so you have to sort of walk that knife edge,

1872
01:35:43,080 --> 01:35:45,599
Speaker 1: um between doing that and presuming that you know more

1873
01:35:45,640 --> 01:35:48,479
Speaker 1: about their interior world than you do, right. I think

1874
01:35:48,479 --> 01:35:50,599
Speaker 1: that's a lot about context, right, Like what and what

1875
01:35:50,640 --> 01:35:54,040
Speaker 1: contexts are you telling that individual animal story individual animal?

1876
01:35:54,520 --> 01:35:56,320
Speaker 1: And then how do you how do you relate it

1877
01:35:56,320 --> 01:35:58,800
Speaker 1: to other things people? So I think your story rings

1878
01:35:58,800 --> 01:36:01,360
Speaker 1: true whether then had a name or not. So you're

1879
01:36:01,439 --> 01:36:03,719
Speaker 1: choosing what you said to to to present the story

1880
01:36:03,760 --> 01:36:06,479
Speaker 1: of something in its place and time, you know, as

1881
01:36:06,479 --> 01:36:10,599
Speaker 1: it happened. And there's the common Hollywood trope of you know,

1882
01:36:10,640 --> 01:36:13,320
Speaker 1: the dog with a name that talks. You know, Like

1883
01:36:13,320 --> 01:36:15,040
Speaker 1: I said, we were watching some Disney shows and there

1884
01:36:15,080 --> 01:36:17,439
Speaker 1: was cheetah that cheated had a name. The kids had

1885
01:36:17,479 --> 01:36:21,479
Speaker 1: a name. They were describing the cheetah emotions that they

1886
01:36:21,520 --> 01:36:23,920
Speaker 1: had interviewed it. You know, it's like that's where I

1887
01:36:24,000 --> 01:36:26,640
Speaker 1: draw the line. But what you're doing is is describing,

1888
01:36:26,720 --> 01:36:28,640
Speaker 1: like you said, the choices that that bear has to

1889
01:36:28,680 --> 01:36:31,120
Speaker 1: make kind of how it moves through the world. I

1890
01:36:31,120 --> 01:36:33,559
Speaker 1: hope it's different. It's different. I hope it's different than

1891
01:36:33,560 --> 01:36:36,320
Speaker 1: the cheetah thing, because it is really struggle hard to

1892
01:36:36,400 --> 01:36:38,400
Speaker 1: make sure it doesn't come out that way. Well, like

1893
01:36:38,400 --> 01:36:41,320
Speaker 1: you said, it's a fine line. It just is what

1894
01:36:41,360 --> 01:36:43,439
Speaker 1: it is. But you don't want to not tell this

1895
01:36:43,479 --> 01:36:46,200
Speaker 1: animal story. I mean I could write that same thing.

1896
01:36:46,280 --> 01:36:48,200
Speaker 1: It would just you know of an elk that I've

1897
01:36:48,360 --> 01:36:50,280
Speaker 1: you know, this six by six elk that I've been

1898
01:36:50,320 --> 01:36:53,040
Speaker 1: tracking all the year. I watched him, I picked up

1899
01:36:53,040 --> 01:36:54,200
Speaker 1: his sheds and me, we do it in the white

1900
01:36:54,240 --> 01:36:56,519
Speaker 1: tail world all the time, and so we're not So

1901
01:36:57,560 --> 01:36:59,120
Speaker 1: that's not so foreign. That kind of thing is not

1902
01:36:59,160 --> 01:37:02,439
Speaker 1: so foreign to a hunter. Right. Um, there's like a

1903
01:37:02,439 --> 01:37:04,400
Speaker 1: real fun line where it gets unhealthy. Because so I

1904
01:37:04,400 --> 01:37:07,640
Speaker 1: have a question about this though, because like, so, what

1905
01:37:07,800 --> 01:37:12,000
Speaker 1: exactly is wrong with naming it? Nothing? I mean, because

1906
01:37:12,040 --> 01:37:15,559
Speaker 1: I think that the thing that so, like, here's my

1907
01:37:15,680 --> 01:37:19,559
Speaker 1: deal is if you if you tracked an elk every

1908
01:37:19,600 --> 01:37:21,680
Speaker 1: day for a month before the seasons, you know, if

1909
01:37:21,680 --> 01:37:23,120
Speaker 1: you were if you were out there every day, you

1910
01:37:23,160 --> 01:37:25,040
Speaker 1: knew exactly where it day bed, and you knew like

1911
01:37:25,640 --> 01:37:27,519
Speaker 1: you know where it's rubbed trees, like the whole thing,

1912
01:37:27,560 --> 01:37:30,120
Speaker 1: which which I've done. You know, like we name them

1913
01:37:30,160 --> 01:37:33,519
Speaker 1: all the time. You name it. But that shouldn't change

1914
01:37:33,560 --> 01:37:36,840
Speaker 1: the outcome, but it can change your emotional attachment to

1915
01:37:36,880 --> 01:37:40,320
Speaker 1: the animal. But so I guess, so, like this is

1916
01:37:40,360 --> 01:37:44,679
Speaker 1: the thing that I I really try to I'm trying.

1917
01:37:44,720 --> 01:37:46,360
Speaker 1: I'm always trying to understand it, and I'm trying to

1918
01:37:46,360 --> 01:37:49,920
Speaker 1: communicate about it too. But it's okay for us to

1919
01:37:50,000 --> 01:37:53,280
Speaker 1: get attached to wild animals and to kill them, Like

1920
01:37:53,360 --> 01:37:56,840
Speaker 1: that's that is the thing that I really want understood.

1921
01:37:57,160 --> 01:37:59,960
Speaker 1: But I want people to feel the entire emotional load

1922
01:38:00,040 --> 01:38:04,720
Speaker 1: of that because I think it's pretty easy because our technology,

1923
01:38:04,920 --> 01:38:07,400
Speaker 1: you know, a scoped rifle for instance, puts you so

1924
01:38:07,439 --> 01:38:10,200
Speaker 1: far away from what you're doing and makes the act

1925
01:38:10,240 --> 01:38:12,360
Speaker 1: of killing so much easier than it used to be.

1926
01:38:13,080 --> 01:38:16,519
Speaker 1: It's it's easy to sanitize things, for sure, and I

1927
01:38:16,520 --> 01:38:18,599
Speaker 1: don't want that. Yeah, No, I think that's the perfect

1928
01:38:18,880 --> 01:38:21,320
Speaker 1: like really the perfect way to describe it, right, And

1929
01:38:21,400 --> 01:38:23,360
Speaker 1: so it's about I think it becomes about Even in

1930
01:38:23,400 --> 01:38:26,080
Speaker 1: the hunting circle, there's a debate about like little stickers,

1931
01:38:26,720 --> 01:38:28,559
Speaker 1: Like it was little stick I don't know that, like

1932
01:38:28,640 --> 01:38:31,040
Speaker 1: you might name a deer. So you encounter a deer

1933
01:38:31,160 --> 01:38:33,000
Speaker 1: when it's two years old and you call it little

1934
01:38:33,000 --> 01:38:34,800
Speaker 1: stickers and it's got a little stickers, and you're like, well,

1935
01:38:34,800 --> 01:38:37,080
Speaker 1: this looks like the age class of a deer that

1936
01:38:37,160 --> 01:38:39,000
Speaker 1: might when it's five, it might be big enough for

1937
01:38:39,040 --> 01:38:42,640
Speaker 1: me to want to kill. And the people call it harvesting,

1938
01:38:42,360 --> 01:38:45,360
Speaker 1: and let's lay off that you're killing it. And we

1939
01:38:45,400 --> 01:38:48,120
Speaker 1: get to a point where we have this relationship with it,

1940
01:38:48,160 --> 01:38:51,000
Speaker 1: with that that particularly dear for a reason, the intention

1941
01:38:51,040 --> 01:38:53,080
Speaker 1: is to kill it. Yeah, we wouldn't know. We don't

1942
01:38:53,280 --> 01:38:56,439
Speaker 1: name does. We just name bucks, and so that's like

1943
01:38:56,479 --> 01:38:59,240
Speaker 1: a strange We only have that named relationship with the

1944
01:38:59,280 --> 01:39:02,160
Speaker 1: thing we into to kill. We don't name birth of

1945
01:39:02,200 --> 01:39:05,680
Speaker 1: the dough and our fawns. So that you're right, I mean,

1946
01:39:05,840 --> 01:39:09,320
Speaker 1: even within our office we often chied the white tail

1947
01:39:09,360 --> 01:39:12,000
Speaker 1: hunters from the Midwest for naming stuff. Sure, I think

1948
01:39:12,000 --> 01:39:15,080
Speaker 1: in the West you don't have a chance. Often you

1949
01:39:15,080 --> 01:39:17,760
Speaker 1: don't really have a chance to be around those animals

1950
01:39:17,800 --> 01:39:22,400
Speaker 1: that long like you, you probably shouldn't And if you do,

1951
01:39:22,439 --> 01:39:24,120
Speaker 1: you got a nice honey hole you should tell me about.

1952
01:39:24,120 --> 01:39:27,160
Speaker 1: But so so there is just within honey But the

1953
01:39:27,200 --> 01:39:29,519
Speaker 1: way you describe it, right, it's intent and context. Right.

1954
01:39:29,640 --> 01:39:31,800
Speaker 1: If your intent is to help tell the story of

1955
01:39:31,800 --> 01:39:35,080
Speaker 1: the animal in a healthy way, kind of get people

1956
01:39:35,640 --> 01:39:37,479
Speaker 1: to have to to build some empty for what it

1957
01:39:37,520 --> 01:39:40,640
Speaker 1: has to go through, absolutely great. Um, I think the

1958
01:39:40,680 --> 01:39:43,240
Speaker 1: Disney version is a little less healthy. It's a little

1959
01:39:43,240 --> 01:39:45,320
Speaker 1: more like, I want you to relate to this animal

1960
01:39:45,400 --> 01:39:48,200
Speaker 1: story because it's like you, and it becomes like you,

1961
01:39:48,760 --> 01:39:51,360
Speaker 1: and it's hard to disassociate what it does whether it's

1962
01:39:51,360 --> 01:39:54,719
Speaker 1: a cheetah and it kills or yeah, it's a cheetah

1963
01:39:54,800 --> 01:39:57,439
Speaker 1: that some villager kills because it's it's eating as crops

1964
01:39:57,479 --> 01:39:59,599
Speaker 1: or whatever that happens over there. So that's like such

1965
01:39:59,600 --> 01:40:01,880
Speaker 1: a fun line for something like you to write a

1966
01:40:01,880 --> 01:40:04,000
Speaker 1: whole book about it. It just shows there's a little

1967
01:40:04,000 --> 01:40:07,200
Speaker 1: bravery in that that you can walk that line, you know,

1968
01:40:07,280 --> 01:40:10,400
Speaker 1: and and understand it. Yeah, I mean it's an it's

1969
01:40:10,400 --> 01:40:13,559
Speaker 1: a tough thing to understand. And but I think also

1970
01:40:13,640 --> 01:40:16,519
Speaker 1: like both the books I've written have had to do

1971
01:40:16,600 --> 01:40:20,439
Speaker 1: with the convert the collision of my own story, first

1972
01:40:20,439 --> 01:40:22,600
Speaker 1: as a ranch hand with bad luck way and and

1973
01:40:22,720 --> 01:40:24,960
Speaker 1: now you know, working with people in carnivores and down

1974
01:40:24,960 --> 01:40:28,120
Speaker 1: from the mountain, like one person's collision with one wild animal.

1975
01:40:28,479 --> 01:40:31,800
Speaker 1: And that's that has been endlessly fascinating for me, because

1976
01:40:31,800 --> 01:40:34,120
Speaker 1: if you think about it, it's like, were these little

1977
01:40:34,439 --> 01:40:39,320
Speaker 1: like sparks zooming around in this grand enormous landscape, and

1978
01:40:39,520 --> 01:40:43,200
Speaker 1: this the situation that brings two things together in that

1979
01:40:43,240 --> 01:40:47,600
Speaker 1: way is like so unlikely. It's just so unlikely that

1980
01:40:47,640 --> 01:40:51,760
Speaker 1: you'll end up, you know, like running into the antelope. Well, like,

1981
01:40:51,800 --> 01:40:54,120
Speaker 1: what you've done is what's I think? So great about

1982
01:40:54,160 --> 01:40:57,080
Speaker 1: what you've done? And I'm glad you're a writer and

1983
01:40:57,120 --> 01:41:00,360
Speaker 1: can articulate it too, So what's great a what you've

1984
01:41:00,360 --> 01:41:03,599
Speaker 1: done is something this podcast has kind of become about

1985
01:41:03,680 --> 01:41:07,000
Speaker 1: for me, which is trying to get rid of my

1986
01:41:07,080 --> 01:41:11,599
Speaker 1: opinions just my my, my pin drop, like the the

1987
01:41:11,600 --> 01:41:15,759
Speaker 1: opinions that I've formed based on only talking and not seeing.

1988
01:41:16,280 --> 01:41:19,120
Speaker 1: So having you in here reading your work is kind

1989
01:41:19,120 --> 01:41:22,160
Speaker 1: of by proxy doing what you did. I'm trying to

1990
01:41:22,160 --> 01:41:25,439
Speaker 1: to distract of what you learn from doing something I've

1991
01:41:25,439 --> 01:41:27,560
Speaker 1: not done. And I probably my wife wouldn't like it

1992
01:41:27,560 --> 01:41:29,320
Speaker 1: if I said we're moving to a ranch and I'm

1993
01:41:29,320 --> 01:41:31,160
Speaker 1: gonna I'm gonna remove the sun ranch and I'm gonna

1994
01:41:31,240 --> 01:41:34,080
Speaker 1: chase cattle and something I'll probably never be able to do.

1995
01:41:34,840 --> 01:41:37,640
Speaker 1: And so like, your work for me just helps me

1996
01:41:37,720 --> 01:41:40,640
Speaker 1: understand by proxy what it's like to not have, like

1997
01:41:40,680 --> 01:41:43,240
Speaker 1: you said, a very abstract understanding early in your life,

1998
01:41:43,720 --> 01:41:46,880
Speaker 1: to a very intense understanding and then then where that

1999
01:41:46,960 --> 01:41:50,200
Speaker 1: dropped you currently, Yeah, it's it's such a confusing place

2000
01:41:50,200 --> 01:41:53,479
Speaker 1: where it drops you too, because you have I have

2001
01:41:53,960 --> 01:41:58,519
Speaker 1: a like fundamentally equal respect for the wilderness that I

2002
01:41:58,520 --> 01:42:00,840
Speaker 1: love so much, in the wild animals that give it

2003
01:42:00,840 --> 01:42:04,240
Speaker 1: its soul, and for the people who make their living here.

2004
01:42:04,760 --> 01:42:08,280
Speaker 1: And so it's just like it's funny because it's spend

2005
01:42:08,280 --> 01:42:09,840
Speaker 1: all this time thinking about it, and I don't feel

2006
01:42:09,880 --> 01:42:12,679
Speaker 1: like I'm any closer to a solution, except to say

2007
01:42:12,720 --> 01:42:16,320
Speaker 1: that we somehow need to learn to exercise collective restraint,

2008
01:42:16,720 --> 01:42:19,160
Speaker 1: because if you look at all the things we love

2009
01:42:19,200 --> 01:42:21,880
Speaker 1: about this place, we can ruin them by breaking them

2010
01:42:21,920 --> 01:42:25,960
Speaker 1: up into enough pieces. And yeah, I think when you say,

2011
01:42:26,120 --> 01:42:29,000
Speaker 1: when you when you articulated like that with where where

2012
01:42:29,160 --> 01:42:33,000
Speaker 1: we started this conversation, I think it becomes something that

2013
01:42:33,080 --> 01:42:35,679
Speaker 1: has value to me because you've gone through the whole thing.

2014
01:42:35,840 --> 01:42:37,960
Speaker 1: I think a lot of times as a hunters somebody

2015
01:42:38,000 --> 01:42:41,760
Speaker 1: who it's kind of grown in this understanding of ecosystems

2016
01:42:41,760 --> 01:42:44,479
Speaker 1: and wildlife in the natural world through hunting. A lot

2017
01:42:44,479 --> 01:42:46,120
Speaker 1: of times I'll get people in here and we were

2018
01:42:46,120 --> 01:42:48,240
Speaker 1: talking about a previous guess I had that was just like,

2019
01:42:49,640 --> 01:42:52,160
Speaker 1: we're not gonna kill any of them anymore, and but

2020
01:42:52,600 --> 01:42:55,200
Speaker 1: never really had a hands on, day to day to

2021
01:42:55,360 --> 01:42:59,800
Speaker 1: day experience experience of not only just watching them through

2022
01:42:59,800 --> 01:43:02,280
Speaker 1: but poculars and seeing how great they were, but like

2023
01:43:02,320 --> 01:43:04,720
Speaker 1: seeing how the impacted the life of a rancher who

2024
01:43:04,760 --> 01:43:07,600
Speaker 1: was just trying to make money, just trying to cohabitate

2025
01:43:07,920 --> 01:43:09,479
Speaker 1: just one of the feed their kids, put their kids

2026
01:43:09,479 --> 01:43:12,160
Speaker 1: through college. Like I think that's that's an important perspective

2027
01:43:12,560 --> 01:43:14,920
Speaker 1: because I've I've talked a lot of biologists that just

2028
01:43:15,000 --> 01:43:19,000
Speaker 1: sit there and look through binos and say how beautiful

2029
01:43:19,000 --> 01:43:20,760
Speaker 1: these animals are. I agree, I think they're beautiful too,

2030
01:43:21,840 --> 01:43:26,080
Speaker 1: but there's there's some not so beautiful connections. It's messy.

2031
01:43:26,120 --> 01:43:28,519
Speaker 1: That's the whole thing. Like you get you get close

2032
01:43:28,560 --> 01:43:31,080
Speaker 1: to anything like this, and it becomes so messy. Like

2033
01:43:31,120 --> 01:43:34,160
Speaker 1: I thought I knew growing up in Seattle, UM, going

2034
01:43:34,240 --> 01:43:37,160
Speaker 1: to an undergrad getting a degree in environmental studies, I

2035
01:43:37,160 --> 01:43:40,960
Speaker 1: think I thought I knew exactly how people should relate

2036
01:43:41,000 --> 01:43:42,720
Speaker 1: to wolves. And then I went to the Sun Ranch

2037
01:43:42,760 --> 01:43:46,080
Speaker 1: and I ended up doing something that was basically unthinkable

2038
01:43:46,160 --> 01:43:48,840
Speaker 1: for me, which was as somebody who never never really

2039
01:43:48,920 --> 01:43:53,240
Speaker 1: hunted except for prairie dogs on my godparents place. Um.

2040
01:43:53,280 --> 01:43:55,560
Speaker 1: You know, I ended up killing a wolf that was

2041
01:43:55,640 --> 01:43:59,120
Speaker 1: killing cattle, and you know, doing it like with no context,

2042
01:43:59,200 --> 01:44:03,840
Speaker 1: like no under standing of the rifle that I was using. No. Um.

2043
01:44:04,200 --> 01:44:08,360
Speaker 1: I mean I understood very well, like why, I understood

2044
01:44:08,439 --> 01:44:11,680
Speaker 1: very well why it needed to be done in that context,

2045
01:44:12,120 --> 01:44:15,680
Speaker 1: but I didn't understand so much that I that I

2046
01:44:15,720 --> 01:44:18,840
Speaker 1: do now, And so like what I took from that

2047
01:44:18,880 --> 01:44:21,040
Speaker 1: because I felt horrible, you know, I felt like I

2048
01:44:21,080 --> 01:44:25,040
Speaker 1: had done something that was wrong and um, but I

2049
01:44:25,040 --> 01:44:26,720
Speaker 1: also felt like I had done something that needed to

2050
01:44:26,720 --> 01:44:31,519
Speaker 1: be done. And what it's like maybe we talked about more.

2051
01:44:31,560 --> 01:44:33,840
Speaker 1: I'm sorry to interrupt you, but we talked about moral

2052
01:44:33,880 --> 01:44:36,720
Speaker 1: absolutism all the time here because I'm just interested in

2053
01:44:36,760 --> 01:44:42,200
Speaker 1: this idea. Outside in nature, there is no right or wrong.

2054
01:44:42,800 --> 01:44:45,320
Speaker 1: There's very very few times that I've run into where

2055
01:44:45,360 --> 01:44:47,160
Speaker 1: there's this moral absolute and like what you did was

2056
01:44:47,280 --> 01:44:53,040
Speaker 1: right or what you did is wrong. It just is this. Yeah,

2057
01:44:53,240 --> 01:44:55,519
Speaker 1: I think I think I actually so, I you know,

2058
01:44:55,680 --> 01:44:58,120
Speaker 1: thought about that obsessively, and I think that's actually what

2059
01:44:58,160 --> 01:45:01,320
Speaker 1: I wrote is that, you know, there's It's funny you

2060
01:45:01,360 --> 01:45:03,439
Speaker 1: can't remember your own book, but I'm pretty sure I

2061
01:45:03,439 --> 01:45:06,240
Speaker 1: wrote this people. I remember in that podcast when you said,

2062
01:45:06,280 --> 01:45:08,680
Speaker 1: I'm like, nope, no, no idea. It sounds like something

2063
01:45:08,720 --> 01:45:10,840
Speaker 1: I would have said. Yeah, you know, I think, you know,

2064
01:45:10,840 --> 01:45:13,440
Speaker 1: maybe it wasn't right or wrong, it was just necessary

2065
01:45:13,800 --> 01:45:16,880
Speaker 1: and and that kind of moral messiness, that kind of

2066
01:45:17,000 --> 01:45:21,000
Speaker 1: um lack of resolution is an important thing for people

2067
01:45:21,000 --> 01:45:23,519
Speaker 1: to be all right with, because that's that is the

2068
01:45:24,080 --> 01:45:26,559
Speaker 1: that's the substance out of which we can forge a

2069
01:45:26,640 --> 01:45:30,760
Speaker 1: working relationship with wild Land. Yeah. Now, on this show,

2070
01:45:30,840 --> 01:45:33,439
Speaker 1: like we we started off, I tried to I don't

2071
01:45:33,439 --> 01:45:35,800
Speaker 1: tell people this, but I try to make sure that

2072
01:45:35,840 --> 01:45:37,840
Speaker 1: we have like some lines of thought through each season.

2073
01:45:37,920 --> 01:45:42,479
Speaker 1: And we started out this, uh have to take some

2074
01:45:42,560 --> 01:45:44,880
Speaker 1: time off, came back with the idea um with an

2075
01:45:44,920 --> 01:45:48,200
Speaker 1: ethicis from Cornell called James Tantillo, Dr James Santill, and

2076
01:45:48,200 --> 01:45:50,720
Speaker 1: he started talking about this idea of tragic knowledge. Right

2077
01:45:50,800 --> 01:45:54,640
Speaker 1: as hunters, we acquired this knowledge of what we're talking about, right,

2078
01:45:54,680 --> 01:45:57,720
Speaker 1: this messiness, this this thing that you can't control. You're

2079
01:45:57,720 --> 01:45:59,719
Speaker 1: trying to do your best. We've set up a system

2080
01:45:59,760 --> 01:46:03,400
Speaker 1: of observation that kind of equals more bears and could

2081
01:46:03,439 --> 01:46:06,759
Speaker 1: equal more elk and has has kind of finished prescription

2082
01:46:06,800 --> 01:46:09,439
Speaker 1: to a problem. But even inside of that, your own

2083
01:46:09,520 --> 01:46:16,160
Speaker 1: personal decisions sometimes suck. You make mistakes and the arrow

2084
01:46:16,200 --> 01:46:19,559
Speaker 1: goes awry and the bullet goes awry, or like said,

2085
01:46:19,600 --> 01:46:22,599
Speaker 1: you become a cattle ranch and realize ship this sucks.

2086
01:46:23,000 --> 01:46:26,880
Speaker 1: Fairy in these things, these have halfers, these cows off

2087
01:46:26,920 --> 01:46:29,280
Speaker 1: to their death. This isn't it. I'm gonna go to

2088
01:46:29,320 --> 01:46:32,439
Speaker 1: the next thing. And it's that personal journey. I think.

2089
01:46:33,400 --> 01:46:35,040
Speaker 1: I just like to recognize that and others and in

2090
01:46:35,200 --> 01:46:37,120
Speaker 1: myself too, like where was I? Where am I going

2091
01:46:37,160 --> 01:46:39,320
Speaker 1: to be? Yeah? You know, when I was twelve years old,

2092
01:46:39,320 --> 01:46:41,479
Speaker 1: we just shot whatever dear came by. I don't do

2093
01:46:41,520 --> 01:46:44,040
Speaker 1: that anymore. Yeah, I mean, I think you know, there's

2094
01:46:44,240 --> 01:46:47,360
Speaker 1: you know the writer David James Duncan. Yeah, so David

2095
01:46:47,400 --> 01:46:49,800
Speaker 1: is a friend of mine. He lives near Missoula, and

2096
01:46:49,840 --> 01:46:52,679
Speaker 1: he always is going on about spirit threads. But David,

2097
01:46:52,680 --> 01:46:55,719
Speaker 1: you should everybody should read is the river Y Brothers

2098
01:46:55,760 --> 01:46:59,720
Speaker 1: KS fantastic writer. Um. But he he always talks about

2099
01:46:59,760 --> 01:47:03,320
Speaker 1: spear threads, which are like these enduring kind of themes

2100
01:47:03,439 --> 01:47:06,479
Speaker 1: that people follow in their lives. And he always I

2101
01:47:06,479 --> 01:47:10,200
Speaker 1: always think like, man, how is it the Dave David

2102
01:47:10,280 --> 01:47:13,000
Speaker 1: picked fishing and I was stupid enough to pick pick

2103
01:47:13,040 --> 01:47:17,719
Speaker 1: like fence, you know, senses yeah, and meat poles. Yeah,

2104
01:47:17,840 --> 01:47:20,120
Speaker 1: Like he picked something that people do for fun and

2105
01:47:20,160 --> 01:47:22,240
Speaker 1: I picked something that people do for work. And what

2106
01:47:22,280 --> 01:47:25,720
Speaker 1: does that say about? Yeah? Man, I've chosen something that

2107
01:47:25,760 --> 01:47:27,240
Speaker 1: people do for fun and made it work and then

2108
01:47:27,280 --> 01:47:29,559
Speaker 1: made it complicated. So yeah, but what do I do?

2109
01:47:29,720 --> 01:47:31,120
Speaker 1: Why am I doing it? But I think like, if

2110
01:47:31,120 --> 01:47:34,200
Speaker 1: you think about that thread, you know, whatever you whatever

2111
01:47:34,240 --> 01:47:36,400
Speaker 1: you're doing, is a way to continue to follow that.

2112
01:47:36,560 --> 01:47:41,000
Speaker 1: So like, weirdly, for me, this work with conservation and

2113
01:47:41,000 --> 01:47:44,960
Speaker 1: people in carnivores is a total continuation of ranching. It's

2114
01:47:45,000 --> 01:47:47,960
Speaker 1: like it's like orbiting, you know, orbiting something that you

2115
01:47:48,040 --> 01:47:51,720
Speaker 1: really want to understand and looking at it from different sides. Yeah,

2116
01:47:51,800 --> 01:47:53,439
Speaker 1: then you start to understand yourself a little bit more,

2117
01:47:53,479 --> 01:47:55,880
Speaker 1: I would imagine, because you you understand your initial desire

2118
01:47:55,920 --> 01:47:58,200
Speaker 1: to be here. Why why did I want to be

2119
01:47:58,240 --> 01:48:01,559
Speaker 1: here initially? And what about me? There's a lot of kids,

2120
01:48:01,560 --> 01:48:04,240
Speaker 1: you know, I've young children. I'm not sure if you do,

2121
01:48:04,280 --> 01:48:06,400
Speaker 1: but I have a couple running around and I see

2122
01:48:06,439 --> 01:48:09,360
Speaker 1: that in them. I see them like choosing lanes and

2123
01:48:09,439 --> 01:48:11,280
Speaker 1: never there's no way they could ever sit around like

2124
01:48:11,280 --> 01:48:14,840
Speaker 1: you know what I'm gonna do today? Like superheroes, dinosaurs,

2125
01:48:14,880 --> 01:48:17,320
Speaker 1: Like they just choose things and yet they're drawn. Yeah,

2126
01:48:17,400 --> 01:48:19,960
Speaker 1: they're drawn in these different ways. Who knows what that's

2127
01:48:19,960 --> 01:48:22,240
Speaker 1: going to manifest when they're thirteen or twenty three or

2128
01:48:22,320 --> 01:48:25,400
Speaker 1: thirty three. Um, But for you, and in a lot

2129
01:48:25,400 --> 01:48:31,080
Speaker 1: of ways for me, like those initial curiosities lead you

2130
01:48:31,200 --> 01:48:33,759
Speaker 1: to a place, and so your life kind of always

2131
01:48:33,800 --> 01:48:36,280
Speaker 1: is revolving around that idea. Yeah, I mean we're always

2132
01:48:36,280 --> 01:48:39,200
Speaker 1: trying to figure out what is interesting about this place

2133
01:48:39,240 --> 01:48:41,160
Speaker 1: that I mean, I think the best thing is if

2134
01:48:41,160 --> 01:48:44,080
Speaker 1: you live a life that you think is interesting in

2135
01:48:44,120 --> 01:48:46,639
Speaker 1: a place that you find interesting, and if you've got that,

2136
01:48:46,720 --> 01:48:49,760
Speaker 1: like that's most of it. Well, we deal like you know,

2137
01:48:49,880 --> 01:48:51,519
Speaker 1: we've been talking about this a lot too lately, Like

2138
01:48:51,600 --> 01:48:54,920
Speaker 1: you deal with activists a lot, people that are at like,

2139
01:48:55,120 --> 01:48:59,040
Speaker 1: I'm not a hunting activist. I just like it, and

2140
01:48:59,240 --> 01:49:01,320
Speaker 1: like talking about I'm not. I don't go up to

2141
01:49:01,320 --> 01:49:03,000
Speaker 1: people be like you've got a hunt. If you don't hunt,

2142
01:49:03,040 --> 01:49:06,760
Speaker 1: you're you're terrible person. But I think like people get

2143
01:49:06,800 --> 01:49:11,080
Speaker 1: so quickly now to being outspoken about something. Um and

2144
01:49:11,120 --> 01:49:13,280
Speaker 1: if anybody could you know, after what you've gone through

2145
01:49:13,280 --> 01:49:15,439
Speaker 1: in your life, could like come to a point where

2146
01:49:15,479 --> 01:49:20,400
Speaker 1: you wanted to be an activist, you could, but you haven't, right, Yeah, Like, yeah,

2147
01:49:20,520 --> 01:49:23,439
Speaker 1: I guess. I mean often you know. I was just

2148
01:49:23,640 --> 01:49:26,120
Speaker 1: in a like a writing class and you have m

2149
01:49:26,200 --> 01:49:28,360
Speaker 1: last week, and they were asking me, like, is is

2150
01:49:28,400 --> 01:49:30,960
Speaker 1: the book activism? We're not? And I was trying to

2151
01:49:31,040 --> 01:49:33,080
Speaker 1: think about because I don't. I don't think about it

2152
01:49:33,160 --> 01:49:34,960
Speaker 1: in those terms. It's clear you don't, but I mean

2153
01:49:34,960 --> 01:49:37,439
Speaker 1: it's in reading it. But for me, it's like I

2154
01:49:38,360 --> 01:49:40,599
Speaker 1: that term is less useful to me, and it's more

2155
01:49:40,680 --> 01:49:42,599
Speaker 1: useful to say, like I really want you to look

2156
01:49:42,640 --> 01:49:44,960
Speaker 1: at this, look at this interesting thing that I saw,

2157
01:49:45,360 --> 01:49:47,760
Speaker 1: and look at this and draw some conclusions from it

2158
01:49:48,280 --> 01:49:51,880
Speaker 1: and and look at it in an open eyed, unprejudiced way.

2159
01:49:52,280 --> 01:49:55,439
Speaker 1: That's yeah, that would be my hope. If I was

2160
01:49:55,479 --> 01:49:57,840
Speaker 1: a college you right now, I would desperately want someone

2161
01:49:57,840 --> 01:49:59,400
Speaker 1: to come and say that to me, because it was like,

2162
01:49:59,439 --> 01:50:02,040
Speaker 1: I'm in a world where that's just is, that's not

2163
01:50:02,080 --> 01:50:05,880
Speaker 1: the norm. People don't there's really position Yeah, like I'm

2164
01:50:05,960 --> 01:50:08,639
Speaker 1: I want you to work your way into this or

2165
01:50:08,640 --> 01:50:11,200
Speaker 1: work your way the hell out of it, instead of saying, like,

2166
01:50:11,439 --> 01:50:14,720
Speaker 1: here's what's happening, let's address it. Lets first let's learn

2167
01:50:14,760 --> 01:50:18,320
Speaker 1: about everything that surrounds And that's what I think this is.

2168
01:50:18,360 --> 01:50:20,760
Speaker 1: And as we were talking before he records, like what

2169
01:50:20,760 --> 01:50:22,040
Speaker 1: what kind of show is this? Or what are we

2170
01:50:22,080 --> 01:50:23,639
Speaker 1: gonna talk about? It's like, man, we're just gonna try

2171
01:50:23,640 --> 01:50:27,439
Speaker 1: to move through a very difficult, messy complex thing and

2172
01:50:27,520 --> 01:50:31,720
Speaker 1: learn and get it wrong and make assumptions and then

2173
01:50:31,800 --> 01:50:34,600
Speaker 1: learn they were wrong and you know, and move and

2174
01:50:34,640 --> 01:50:39,040
Speaker 1: move through that in this uncontrollable, very messy, weird way. Right.

2175
01:50:39,080 --> 01:50:42,320
Speaker 1: And bears, I love bears. I love watching them and

2176
01:50:42,400 --> 01:50:44,760
Speaker 1: I go the first time I saw one in Yellowstone,

2177
01:50:44,800 --> 01:50:47,479
Speaker 1: I think my jaw was on the floor. Yeah, and

2178
01:50:47,520 --> 01:50:50,120
Speaker 1: they moved through the world in a messy, uncontrollable way.

2179
01:50:50,240 --> 01:50:51,920
Speaker 1: So it's the right way to talk about them, you know,

2180
01:50:52,000 --> 01:50:54,479
Speaker 1: And I think it's great and so all those things.

2181
01:50:54,520 --> 01:50:56,479
Speaker 1: I mean, I know when you set out to write

2182
01:50:56,520 --> 01:50:58,000
Speaker 1: a book like this, you don't sit Maybe you do,

2183
01:50:58,240 --> 01:51:00,599
Speaker 1: you tell me, like sit down and think about all

2184
01:51:00,600 --> 01:51:02,960
Speaker 1: this stuff and then write your way into it. You

2185
01:51:03,080 --> 01:51:07,040
Speaker 1: just tell them the story. Yeah, it's a process of accretion,

2186
01:51:07,120 --> 01:51:09,400
Speaker 1: you know, like continental plates going under each other's scraping

2187
01:51:09,479 --> 01:51:11,719
Speaker 1: up a bunch of soil, just a bunch of stuff

2188
01:51:11,760 --> 01:51:14,000
Speaker 1: gets stuck on the dozer blade. Yeah. So when you

2189
01:51:14,000 --> 01:51:17,240
Speaker 1: think about this bear who spent so much time with

2190
01:51:17,320 --> 01:51:19,519
Speaker 1: and you told Millie's story and you kind of that's

2191
01:51:19,560 --> 01:51:24,559
Speaker 1: how you approached this book. Um, what do you come

2192
01:51:24,560 --> 01:51:28,360
Speaker 1: out with like regrets, things are very happy about, Like

2193
01:51:28,360 --> 01:51:31,240
Speaker 1: when just with how Millie's story played out, Well, I'm

2194
01:51:31,240 --> 01:51:33,200
Speaker 1: not happy with your story played out. But you don't

2195
01:51:33,200 --> 01:51:35,439
Speaker 1: want to give it away. Like were we were talking earlier,

2196
01:51:35,520 --> 01:51:37,439
Speaker 1: We're gonna start a little book club here. Everybody we

2197
01:51:37,479 --> 01:51:39,160
Speaker 1: haven't one has a book, I think, yeah, and so

2198
01:51:39,200 --> 01:51:40,760
Speaker 1: we're gonna start a little book club. So I don't

2199
01:51:40,760 --> 01:51:42,439
Speaker 1: want to give the the ending away. I mean, it's

2200
01:51:42,439 --> 01:51:45,280
Speaker 1: in the title she dies, Yeah, Life and Death of

2201
01:51:45,280 --> 01:51:47,840
Speaker 1: a Grizzly, but it's there. But like, yeah, what do

2202
01:51:47,880 --> 01:51:49,200
Speaker 1: I take away from what do you take away from?

2203
01:51:49,320 --> 01:51:52,160
Speaker 1: What I take away from it is that, like I

2204
01:51:52,160 --> 01:51:54,960
Speaker 1: said before, we've reached we've reached a crucial point in

2205
01:51:55,000 --> 01:51:57,840
Speaker 1: this landscape in terms of how we relate to animals

2206
01:51:57,880 --> 01:52:02,599
Speaker 1: like Millie, like grizzlies and so much of what they

2207
01:52:02,640 --> 01:52:06,800
Speaker 1: have to negotiate to survive, to thrive, to to you know,

2208
01:52:08,160 --> 01:52:10,519
Speaker 1: re enter places in the landscape where they've been absent

2209
01:52:10,600 --> 01:52:13,240
Speaker 1: for a while. It all comes down to us and

2210
01:52:13,320 --> 01:52:16,320
Speaker 1: some really mundane choices that we make, like as things

2211
01:52:16,360 --> 01:52:19,479
Speaker 1: as as low as as like low level, as are

2212
01:52:19,520 --> 01:52:22,759
Speaker 1: you going to have chickens because you like, do you okay,

2213
01:52:22,840 --> 01:52:25,040
Speaker 1: you live in this beautiful creek that comes out of

2214
01:52:25,040 --> 01:52:27,519
Speaker 1: the mountains, you know, this creek bed and you're in

2215
01:52:27,560 --> 01:52:30,519
Speaker 1: the ripe arian area? Like do you really need chickens

2216
01:52:30,640 --> 01:52:33,280
Speaker 1: in that context? And if so, like will you choose

2217
01:52:33,320 --> 01:52:35,720
Speaker 1: to do? Will you do your due diligence and put

2218
01:52:35,760 --> 01:52:38,040
Speaker 1: an electric fence around that chicken coop? So it's like

2219
01:52:38,479 --> 01:52:42,120
Speaker 1: I guess I'm left with this feeling of sometimes I'm

2220
01:52:42,120 --> 01:52:45,280
Speaker 1: really disappointed with the fact that we won't even take

2221
01:52:45,280 --> 01:52:47,400
Speaker 1: what seemed to me like very basic steps to live

2222
01:52:47,400 --> 01:52:51,360
Speaker 1: better with wild things. Um. But I'm also struck by

2223
01:52:51,360 --> 01:52:55,120
Speaker 1: the fact that, like, if we wanted a purpose as

2224
01:52:55,160 --> 01:52:58,519
Speaker 1: a generation in the West, we have a ready made

2225
01:52:58,560 --> 01:53:00,880
Speaker 1: purpose here, which is that like we're sitting at this

2226
01:53:01,000 --> 01:53:04,360
Speaker 1: crossroads where either we're going to change the way because

2227
01:53:04,520 --> 01:53:08,520
Speaker 1: for for the last hundred and fifty years, every generation

2228
01:53:08,600 --> 01:53:11,920
Speaker 1: has been leaving this place less ecologically intact, right if

2229
01:53:11,960 --> 01:53:13,280
Speaker 1: you look at it on the whole, I mean, there

2230
01:53:13,320 --> 01:53:18,200
Speaker 1: have been great things done. Grizzly recovery is great, but um,

2231
01:53:18,280 --> 01:53:19,800
Speaker 1: you know, we we have to make a choice, like

2232
01:53:19,800 --> 01:53:21,439
Speaker 1: are we gonna go are we going to continue in

2233
01:53:21,479 --> 01:53:25,360
Speaker 1: this direction which will likely, you know, continue to diminish

2234
01:53:25,400 --> 01:53:28,880
Speaker 1: some of the things that outdoors people really really value

2235
01:53:28,880 --> 01:53:31,880
Speaker 1: and that I live on um or are we going

2236
01:53:31,920 --> 01:53:33,920
Speaker 1: to make a different choice? And I think, you know,

2237
01:53:34,000 --> 01:53:38,920
Speaker 1: hurt Millie story really challenges us with the consequences of

2238
01:53:38,920 --> 01:53:42,519
Speaker 1: of not getting that right. And I think what what

2239
01:53:42,560 --> 01:53:44,479
Speaker 1: you've done is get your hands dirty and so many

2240
01:53:44,479 --> 01:53:47,320
Speaker 1: ways right, That's I think that's what's important. Like, if

2241
01:53:47,360 --> 01:53:48,840
Speaker 1: you care about a thing, go get your hands there

2242
01:53:48,960 --> 01:53:51,000
Speaker 1: and go find out what it's really like to be

2243
01:53:51,640 --> 01:53:53,920
Speaker 1: a rancher or be whatever you know, whatever you're into,

2244
01:53:54,080 --> 01:53:56,479
Speaker 1: go build a fence around the corn fields. Right about it.

2245
01:53:56,520 --> 01:53:58,280
Speaker 1: We never really mentioned that, but that's like, that's I

2246
01:53:58,320 --> 01:54:00,639
Speaker 1: spent an entire summer trying to fence these bears out

2247
01:54:00,640 --> 01:54:03,519
Speaker 1: of this corn field. And that's one of the craziest

2248
01:54:03,520 --> 01:54:06,040
Speaker 1: experiences I've ever had because you'll be you know, you'll

2249
01:54:06,040 --> 01:54:09,240
Speaker 1: know from telemetry that there's four or five bears inside

2250
01:54:09,240 --> 01:54:11,519
Speaker 1: of corn and there you are, working along the edge

2251
01:54:11,520 --> 01:54:13,880
Speaker 1: of this wall of it. So, yeah, you never you

2252
01:54:14,000 --> 01:54:16,840
Speaker 1: never had any like big attacks or anything like that.

2253
01:54:17,600 --> 01:54:21,880
Speaker 1: I've bushes with death. I've been really fortunate. Um, I've

2254
01:54:21,920 --> 01:54:26,840
Speaker 1: had brushes with bears. I've been terrified. Ah, I've never,

2255
01:54:28,240 --> 01:54:31,040
Speaker 1: I've never. I've put it this way. I've had my

2256
01:54:31,080 --> 01:54:33,640
Speaker 1: bears pray out, but I've never had to use it.

2257
01:54:34,240 --> 01:54:36,920
Speaker 1: That's that's a T shirt. I had my bear spray out,

2258
01:54:36,960 --> 01:54:38,000
Speaker 1: but I've never had to use it. And that I

2259
01:54:38,000 --> 01:54:41,920
Speaker 1: think that's probably maybe a good euphemism for what kind

2260
01:54:41,920 --> 01:54:43,800
Speaker 1: of what you want to have happened. Like, I want

2261
01:54:43,800 --> 01:54:45,920
Speaker 1: to know that they're there. I know that they're dangerous,

2262
01:54:45,920 --> 01:54:49,200
Speaker 1: but I want to limit the negative interaction that we

2263
01:54:49,280 --> 01:54:51,920
Speaker 1: have and what at least that negative interaction. Right, So,

2264
01:54:52,160 --> 01:54:55,360
Speaker 1: like I said, I coming into this, like I started

2265
01:54:55,360 --> 01:54:58,480
Speaker 1: reading a lot of the papers that people in carnivores

2266
01:54:58,520 --> 01:55:01,880
Speaker 1: put out a lot of that stuff. Um, not a biologist,

2267
01:55:02,160 --> 01:55:04,760
Speaker 1: not even a grizzly hunter, probably, like I probably wouldn't

2268
01:55:04,760 --> 01:55:07,080
Speaker 1: do it, but it's just rank true to me. Is like, hey,

2269
01:55:07,120 --> 01:55:10,880
Speaker 1: we're taking where we are, we're dealing with it, and

2270
01:55:10,880 --> 01:55:12,640
Speaker 1: then we're also saying like how can we get better

2271
01:55:12,720 --> 01:55:15,360
Speaker 1: while we deal with the current situation on the ground. Yeah,

2272
01:55:15,360 --> 01:55:18,640
Speaker 1: I like it. It's funny because like people think about

2273
01:55:18,640 --> 01:55:22,000
Speaker 1: it as controversial work, there's nothing controversial about with people

2274
01:55:22,000 --> 01:55:24,080
Speaker 1: in carnivores. It's like, let's just try to do this

2275
01:55:24,120 --> 01:55:26,480
Speaker 1: a little bit better. Yeah, Like let's let's try to

2276
01:55:26,520 --> 01:55:30,320
Speaker 1: find this middle ground that can benefit these these wildlife

2277
01:55:30,360 --> 01:55:33,400
Speaker 1: species and also benefit us. And like I said, before

2278
01:55:33,440 --> 01:55:35,280
Speaker 1: we say record, I mean I think that's it. Man,

2279
01:55:35,440 --> 01:55:38,080
Speaker 1: Like if we can find people like yourself who are

2280
01:55:38,080 --> 01:55:40,400
Speaker 1: willing to step into these messy things and go like

2281
01:55:40,800 --> 01:55:42,680
Speaker 1: let's just try to get it right. And I'm not

2282
01:55:42,720 --> 01:55:45,440
Speaker 1: coming into it to save everything. I'm not coming into

2283
01:55:45,520 --> 01:55:49,360
Speaker 1: damn everything. I'm coming into it to be in it,

2284
01:55:50,120 --> 01:55:52,680
Speaker 1: to be there and try to help with solutions. Yeah,

2285
01:55:52,680 --> 01:55:53,680
Speaker 1: and at the end of the day, I'm going to

2286
01:55:53,760 --> 01:55:55,880
Speaker 1: go home to a farm that looks a lot like

2287
01:55:56,000 --> 01:55:57,640
Speaker 1: a lot of the places at work and has the

2288
01:55:57,640 --> 01:56:00,320
Speaker 1: same issues. I mean, we ran we're walk and off

2289
01:56:00,320 --> 01:56:03,320
Speaker 1: our the corner that is right next to the Rattlesnake

2290
01:56:03,440 --> 01:56:06,440
Speaker 1: Wilderness ran into a lion at like twenty paces a

2291
01:56:06,480 --> 01:56:09,360
Speaker 1: couple of days ago, and it was crazy. And so

2292
01:56:09,640 --> 01:56:12,520
Speaker 1: you know, I do think that it's good for people

2293
01:56:12,560 --> 01:56:14,640
Speaker 1: who live in this landscape and think about it and

2294
01:56:14,680 --> 01:56:17,960
Speaker 1: know it intimately to undertake this work. Yeah, well you've

2295
01:56:18,120 --> 01:56:21,880
Speaker 1: if you folks listening, go read down from the Mountain,

2296
01:56:22,160 --> 01:56:24,040
Speaker 1: you'll get a good picture of all this stuff. And

2297
01:56:24,040 --> 01:56:25,920
Speaker 1: it's it's you're not gonna have to listen to all

2298
01:56:25,960 --> 01:56:28,120
Speaker 1: the existential ship we talked about. You're gonna get a

2299
01:56:28,120 --> 01:56:31,680
Speaker 1: good story about a really cool place both in time

2300
01:56:31,760 --> 01:56:35,360
Speaker 1: and in the landscape, and a really a great interaction

2301
01:56:35,400 --> 01:56:38,800
Speaker 1: with with an animal. That's what you're gonna get, all right,

2302
01:56:38,840 --> 01:56:40,920
Speaker 1: Thanks Bryce, Hey, thanks for having me appreciate you. Man.

2303
01:56:50,840 --> 01:56:54,480
Speaker 1: That's it. That is all I'm hyped up on. That

2304
01:56:54,560 --> 01:56:59,560
Speaker 1: year Umante. That's good stuff. Phil some cross over here,

2305
01:56:59,680 --> 01:57:02,280
Speaker 1: any and not a sponsor. Anyone who listens to the

2306
01:57:02,320 --> 01:57:06,160
Speaker 1: Meteor podcast knows that I love Mini green energy. Yeah

2307
01:57:06,160 --> 01:57:10,040
Speaker 1: you do. I'm not, but I've got a bunch on

2308
01:57:10,080 --> 01:57:12,440
Speaker 1: my desk. You got a fool into at least two

2309
01:57:12,440 --> 01:57:14,440
Speaker 1: o'clock when I need a little pick me up. But

2310
01:57:14,520 --> 01:57:18,240
Speaker 1: there's some yr bamte in in those Probably there is.

2311
01:57:18,680 --> 01:57:20,760
Speaker 1: That's like one of the the main one of the

2312
01:57:20,760 --> 01:57:24,440
Speaker 1: main ingredients in their proprietary blend. I know this is

2313
01:57:24,480 --> 01:57:27,440
Speaker 1: what people think. I'm hipster. I'm a woaking People have

2314
01:57:27,480 --> 01:57:30,200
Speaker 1: called me the woaking Phoenix of the hunting world. People

2315
01:57:30,200 --> 01:57:32,800
Speaker 1: are saying that. People are now saying it. They're hashtagging it.

2316
01:57:33,280 --> 01:57:36,600
Speaker 1: They're like, listen to this guy, he's crazy, man, And

2317
01:57:36,600 --> 01:57:40,960
Speaker 1: this is only aiding their view because I had to

2318
01:57:40,960 --> 01:57:42,920
Speaker 1: me when you're drinking like a Budweiser or something. But

2319
01:57:43,000 --> 01:57:47,080
Speaker 1: now listen you your best life. Don't don't listen to

2320
01:57:47,160 --> 01:57:52,360
Speaker 1: that chatter, that echo chamber. I'm into it, hate I'm

2321
01:57:52,400 --> 01:57:54,200
Speaker 1: into it. I'm now a fan of walking pace. I've

2322
01:57:54,240 --> 01:57:57,960
Speaker 1: turned Hey, never mind, I'm not turned on that. Just

2323
01:57:58,040 --> 01:58:01,920
Speaker 1: watch that clip. Dude looks like he's acting. He looks

2324
01:58:01,960 --> 01:58:04,280
Speaker 1: like he just looks like he's look at his eyes.

2325
01:58:04,760 --> 01:58:07,640
Speaker 1: There's there's something going on behind those eyes. If you

2326
01:58:07,640 --> 01:58:11,280
Speaker 1: want a good double feature of insane oscar clips and

2327
01:58:11,440 --> 01:58:13,800
Speaker 1: just just stay tuned for the renas lay you one

2328
01:58:13,800 --> 01:58:15,920
Speaker 1: that happened right after that. I don't really want to

2329
01:58:15,920 --> 01:58:19,840
Speaker 1: trip balls on crazy. Yeah, man, And I am now

2330
01:58:19,880 --> 01:58:22,960
Speaker 1: agreeing with a person that I hate as much as

2331
01:58:23,000 --> 01:58:26,920
Speaker 1: Walking Phoenix. Ricky Gervais. What a terrible human he is? Now,

2332
01:58:27,040 --> 01:58:32,200
Speaker 1: this funny guy is is a is a miserable, awful,

2333
01:58:32,680 --> 01:58:35,200
Speaker 1: awful human. But he went up on one of those

2334
01:58:35,200 --> 01:58:37,680
Speaker 1: Awards shows that I saw and just roasted Hollywood, And

2335
01:58:37,720 --> 01:58:40,400
Speaker 1: I'm like, I agree with you, but you're in it.

2336
01:58:41,160 --> 01:58:44,800
Speaker 1: You're also drinking theaigne, which is exactly what we got

2337
01:58:44,800 --> 01:58:49,120
Speaker 1: mad at what Keen phoenis about. What don't you're not

2338
01:58:49,200 --> 01:58:53,520
Speaker 1: an anti hero, Ricky Gervais, get outta here, son. He's

2339
01:58:53,560 --> 01:58:58,280
Speaker 1: also extremely he's extremely against hunting. He's an animal rights

2340
01:58:58,320 --> 01:59:01,160
Speaker 1: activist himself. It's so he did say, like, I agree

2341
01:59:01,200 --> 01:59:05,320
Speaker 1: with Joaquin Phoenix, but the way he said it and

2342
01:59:05,320 --> 01:59:07,360
Speaker 1: where he said it, which is kind of what I said.

2343
01:59:07,600 --> 01:59:10,640
Speaker 1: But I don't want to agree with Pricky Gervais, you know,

2344
01:59:10,840 --> 01:59:14,920
Speaker 1: because I don't agree with like pluralistic thinking or you know,

2345
01:59:15,040 --> 01:59:18,240
Speaker 1: like commonalities, or I don't believe in that anymore. I've switched.

2346
01:59:19,320 --> 01:59:22,880
Speaker 1: This podcast is now about having one opinion and sticking

2347
01:59:22,920 --> 01:59:25,920
Speaker 1: to it. I like it, and hearing no other opinion,

2348
01:59:26,080 --> 01:59:33,320
Speaker 1: hearing no other opinion, and giving no hats new best Year,

2349
01:59:33,640 --> 01:59:36,360
Speaker 1: best year ever. We know what we know and we

2350
01:59:36,360 --> 01:59:38,400
Speaker 1: don't want to hear it from anyone else about it. Okay,

2351
01:59:38,640 --> 01:59:40,200
Speaker 1: So that's what I want you guys to do. Go

2352
01:59:40,280 --> 01:59:43,000
Speaker 1: home and take that tech with your wives or your

2353
01:59:43,240 --> 01:59:46,400
Speaker 1: or your husband's see what two happens if you're not married.

2354
01:59:46,400 --> 01:59:48,200
Speaker 1: To take it with your cat or what's your cat's name,

2355
01:59:48,200 --> 01:59:52,040
Speaker 1: meat loaf kill to your cats. Speaking of that transition, dude,

2356
01:59:52,040 --> 01:59:55,000
Speaker 1: I'm hopped up. Can you hear it out there? That's

2357
01:59:55,000 --> 01:59:57,280
Speaker 1: the real deal, and that's the real deal. It's gonna

2358
01:59:57,280 --> 01:59:59,320
Speaker 1: be a way better podcast. I'll probably get fired in

2359
01:59:59,320 --> 02:00:02,200
Speaker 1: a couple of weeks. But actually, after after witnessing what's

2360
02:00:02,200 --> 02:00:04,240
Speaker 1: happening to you, um drinking this tea, I don't I

2361
02:00:04,240 --> 02:00:06,320
Speaker 1: don't know if you should drink coffee, I might get fired.

2362
02:00:07,160 --> 02:00:09,600
Speaker 1: So you're gonna be doing a lot of coming. Yeah,

2363
02:00:09,640 --> 02:00:11,800
Speaker 1: it's gonna be a lot more, a lot more editing. Anywait,

2364
02:00:12,280 --> 02:00:14,080
Speaker 1: next week I'm gonna be on the year with Mante.

2365
02:00:14,560 --> 02:00:18,360
Speaker 1: Next week is the big week. We're gonna go in here.

2366
02:00:18,360 --> 02:00:21,720
Speaker 1: We're gonna look at all the hundreds of photos of

2367
02:00:21,760 --> 02:00:24,160
Speaker 1: field that were drawn. I had to have to say

2368
02:00:24,160 --> 02:00:27,880
Speaker 1: a lot of you tried to photoshop. It's someone more hilarious,

2369
02:00:28,080 --> 02:00:31,440
Speaker 1: but we can't accept photoshops. Yeah, it's gotta be. So

2370
02:00:31,560 --> 02:00:33,280
Speaker 1: if you're listening to this and you did a photoshop

2371
02:00:33,280 --> 02:00:36,080
Speaker 1: and it was funny because there's dozens of them just

2372
02:00:36,200 --> 02:00:39,040
Speaker 1: drawing it, it was drawing. Can I just say I'm

2373
02:00:39,160 --> 02:00:43,880
Speaker 1: very I'm very worried about picking favorites. I'm just so

2374
02:00:43,920 --> 02:00:47,360
Speaker 1: flattered that people are just didn't do There's one, there's

2375
02:00:47,440 --> 02:00:52,640
Speaker 1: one that's so beautiful. It's like a drawing of filling mango,

2376
02:00:52,760 --> 02:00:57,080
Speaker 1: but it's really a drawing, this one that you're referring to.

2377
02:00:57,840 --> 02:00:59,280
Speaker 1: If you have to feel that you don't have a

2378
02:00:59,320 --> 02:01:02,200
Speaker 1: lot of artistic ability out there, beautiful to not let

2379
02:01:02,240 --> 02:01:06,520
Speaker 1: this deter you from entering this competition. It is stunning.

2380
02:01:07,880 --> 02:01:10,040
Speaker 1: It is Can I just say, if that picture wins

2381
02:01:10,080 --> 02:01:13,520
Speaker 1: there's gonna be a bunch of furious. It's in the lead.

2382
02:01:14,520 --> 02:01:16,400
Speaker 1: It's in the lead as we go into the clubhouse.

2383
02:01:16,400 --> 02:01:19,200
Speaker 1: So you guys got seven more days roughly to go

2384
02:01:19,240 --> 02:01:20,720
Speaker 1: and do this. Get him in, get him in as

2385
02:01:20,760 --> 02:01:23,120
Speaker 1: soon as possible. We've been we've been having fun at

2386
02:01:23,120 --> 02:01:25,720
Speaker 1: the office looking at these. They're behind Phil's desk, were

2387
02:01:25,880 --> 02:01:28,960
Speaker 1: keep adding to it. Um, you know everybody has to

2388
02:01:28,960 --> 02:01:31,280
Speaker 1: walk by to get to the podcast studio. Phil's desk

2389
02:01:31,480 --> 02:01:33,880
Speaker 1: and the mural of illustrations that you guys out there

2390
02:01:33,880 --> 02:01:37,920
Speaker 1: have done. So a sincere caffeine up. Thank you from

2391
02:01:37,960 --> 02:01:41,680
Speaker 1: me for participating, and you're gonna win stuff. So if

2392
02:01:41,680 --> 02:01:44,640
Speaker 1: you haven't go and do it right now. Next week

2393
02:01:44,680 --> 02:01:46,200
Speaker 1: on the show, we got a lot of really cool things.

2394
02:01:46,720 --> 02:01:53,000
Speaker 1: We have Ryan Holiday from the Daily stoic Um you

2395
02:01:53,040 --> 02:01:55,560
Speaker 1: know what that is? I don't know. He's like, he's

2396
02:01:55,600 --> 02:01:58,120
Speaker 1: like an obstacle is the way kind of guy. But

2397
02:01:58,160 --> 02:02:01,520
Speaker 1: he also that's actually the book you up. He's all

2398
02:02:01,560 --> 02:02:04,200
Speaker 1: about like a challenging yourself to get better. So I

2399
02:02:04,280 --> 02:02:08,400
Speaker 1: like that in general. And he also wrote a piece

2400
02:02:08,840 --> 02:02:10,680
Speaker 1: that I read that I was very enttained. I called

2401
02:02:11,160 --> 02:02:14,360
Speaker 1: why every millennial should try hunting and as a millennial.

2402
02:02:15,720 --> 02:02:19,200
Speaker 1: I'm obviously into it. So we we talked to Ryan.

2403
02:02:19,200 --> 02:02:22,640
Speaker 1: You're gonna try try, So we talked to Rian. We

2404
02:02:22,720 --> 02:02:26,760
Speaker 1: also got on the phone a newly engaged couple who

2405
02:02:27,720 --> 02:02:32,200
Speaker 1: got engaged based on my advice in part. So we're

2406
02:02:32,200 --> 02:02:35,120
Speaker 1: gonna hear about that, how that went down, what role

2407
02:02:35,200 --> 02:02:39,960
Speaker 1: that I played? Wow? You really really just blowing yourself

2408
02:02:40,000 --> 02:02:42,360
Speaker 1: up in this uh this show? Yeah, yeah, yeah, this

2409
02:02:42,400 --> 02:02:44,160
Speaker 1: is all about me. Yeah. Like I said, this is

2410
02:02:44,160 --> 02:02:47,720
Speaker 1: where we're pea. This is that we're flipping the whole

2411
02:02:47,800 --> 02:02:49,680
Speaker 1: of the show where we're like, let's be open mind

2412
02:02:49,760 --> 02:02:52,480
Speaker 1: edde Now we're flipping it. Now it's about me and

2413
02:02:52,520 --> 02:02:54,240
Speaker 1: what I think. Yes, you're gonna talk to this guy

2414
02:02:54,280 --> 02:02:56,160
Speaker 1: and be like, how did me How did I been

2415
02:02:56,200 --> 02:02:59,440
Speaker 1: O'Brien change your life? Change your life? Am I the

2416
02:02:59,480 --> 02:03:03,040
Speaker 1: biggest influencer in your life or the most influential person

2417
02:03:03,080 --> 02:03:06,040
Speaker 1: in your life? You tell me which one. And so

2418
02:03:06,160 --> 02:03:08,440
Speaker 1: that's that's coming up on episode one O two of

2419
02:03:08,480 --> 02:03:11,160
Speaker 1: the Ben O'Brien Experience, and you're really gonna love it.

2420
02:03:11,440 --> 02:03:15,919
Speaker 1: We'll see then by The Hunting Collective with Ben O'Brien

2421
02:03:16,000 --> 02:03:18,400
Speaker 1: is a part of the Meat Eater podcast Network. It

2422
02:03:18,520 --> 02:03:21,440
Speaker 1: is produced by Kringe Schneider and engineered by Phil Taylor.

2423
02:03:21,560 --> 02:03:24,600
Speaker 1: You can find it on iTunes, Stitcher, Spotify, the meat

2424
02:03:24,600 --> 02:03:28,440
Speaker 1: eater dot com, or anywhere podcasts are downloadable. Wherever you listen,

2425
02:03:28,560 --> 02:03:30,600
Speaker 1: leave a five star review, and subscribe