1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,400 Speaker 1: Now this is a deep cut. Our classic today is 2 00:00:04,680 --> 00:00:10,160 Speaker 1: about a civil rights hero that has an entirely different 3 00:00:10,240 --> 00:00:11,560 Speaker 1: story behind the scenes. 4 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:14,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, I kind of don't want to spoil any of it. 5 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:16,799 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's kind of better that you just go in 6 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:19,960 Speaker 3: cold or knowing what you already know and let us 7 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 3: sort of add a little more depth to the story 8 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:24,040 Speaker 3: of mister Ernest Withers. 9 00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:28,200 Speaker 2: In an interview with an amazing person, Mark Periskia, that 10 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 2: we spoke with about this. If it's worth your time, 11 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:32,080 Speaker 2: we hope you enjoy. 12 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:37,080 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies, history is 13 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:41,479 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 14 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:43,519 Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. 15 00:00:56,520 --> 00:00:58,720 Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, 16 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:00,640 Speaker 2: my name is Nola Ben. 17 00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:04,319 Speaker 1: We are joined with our super producer Casey Pegram today. 18 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:07,000 Speaker 1: Most importantly, you are you. You are here, and that 19 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:10,680 Speaker 1: makes this stuff they don't want you to know. We'd 20 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:13,480 Speaker 1: like to start today's episode with a quote. 21 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:17,000 Speaker 2: Men may be without restraints upon their liberty. They must 22 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:19,679 Speaker 2: pass to and fro at pleasure, but if their steps 23 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:23,360 Speaker 2: are tracked by spies and informers, their words noted down 24 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:28,040 Speaker 2: for crimination, their associates watched as conspirators. Who shall say 25 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 2: that they are free? And that's a quote from Thomas 26 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:33,920 Speaker 2: Erskine May from the work Constitutional History of England. 27 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:37,800 Speaker 1: And you may be wondering, friends and neighbors, why we're 28 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:42,640 Speaker 1: opening today's episode with this quotation. Today, you see, we're 29 00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:46,480 Speaker 1: delving into a story of deception, of subterfuge, the struggle 30 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:50,279 Speaker 1: for equality, the ethical dilemmas of espionage, and the life 31 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:53,280 Speaker 1: of one Earnest Columbus Withers Senior. 32 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:56,920 Speaker 3: Withers was born on August seventh, nineteen twenty two. I 33 00:01:57,040 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 3: spent sixty years of his life working as a photojournalist, 34 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 3: docum mensing the African American experience in the American South, 35 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:05,960 Speaker 3: with the most well known work occurring during the Civil 36 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:08,079 Speaker 3: Rights movement, and over the course of his career he 37 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:11,799 Speaker 3: took some of the most iconic photographs in American history. 38 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:16,640 Speaker 3: These are completely fantastic time and place. They take you 39 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 3: right to it. No one else took photographs quite like this. 40 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:22,960 Speaker 3: He traveled with doctor Martin Luther King and other civil 41 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 3: rights leaders. He was a trusted friend and associate, a 42 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 3: member of the Inner Circle. He even sat in on 43 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:30,320 Speaker 3: strategy meetings. 44 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:32,960 Speaker 1: And after his death in two thousand and seven, his 45 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:36,360 Speaker 1: legacy lived on as newspapers across the country and The 46 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:39,680 Speaker 1: Globe published his work. Today, he is remembered, as an 47 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:42,600 Speaker 1: ol said, as an iconic photographer, a loving family man, 48 00:02:42,639 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 1: a hometown hero in Memphis, Tennessee, and in a very 49 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:52,160 Speaker 1: real way, the eye of the civil rights movement. It 50 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:56,480 Speaker 1: turns out he was also working in secret for another organization. 51 00:02:57,040 --> 00:02:59,680 Speaker 1: This is a story that remained buried and may well 52 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 1: have been lost to history, where not for the efforts 53 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:05,880 Speaker 1: of a veteran Memphis journalist working at the Commercial Appeal. 54 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 1: Through laborious research, Mark Periskia bought this story from the 55 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:13,640 Speaker 1: murky world of domestic intelligence into the light of the 56 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 1: public sphere. And here's the thing, folks, We always, as 57 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:22,880 Speaker 1: you know, want to go directly to the source whenever possible, 58 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:26,600 Speaker 1: and by golly, by gum by gosh, today we succeeded. 59 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:29,919 Speaker 1: We'd like to welcome Mark Periskia to the show. Thank 60 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:30,919 Speaker 1: you for coming, Sarah. 61 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 4: Well, thank you for having me. 62 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:34,920 Speaker 2: We're really excited to talk to you about this, not 63 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 2: only for the work alone, but the work that you 64 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:40,800 Speaker 2: do in general. You're an investigative journalist. 65 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:42,440 Speaker 4: Sir, Yeah, there's a few of us still left. 66 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:45,680 Speaker 2: I can't. I mean, that was the path that I 67 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:49,120 Speaker 2: personally wanted to take, but as I was getting through college, 68 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:52,720 Speaker 2: kind of made the realization that it probably won't happen 69 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:53,000 Speaker 2: for me. 70 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 5: Well, you probably made a good, wise career choice there, 71 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:57,800 Speaker 5: because it seems like you got a good thing going 72 00:03:57,800 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 5: on here. 73 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, honestly, so personally very excited to have you on 74 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:03,840 Speaker 2: the show. And as we all are. 75 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:06,480 Speaker 3: Yes here here, and you, sir, have a quite amazing 76 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:09,280 Speaker 3: thing going in your new book, A Spy in Canaan, 77 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 3: How the FBI used a famous photographer to infiltrate the 78 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 3: civil rights movement. A deep dive into the story we 79 00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 3: briefly just set up. 80 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 5: Well, it all started back in nineteen ninety seven when 81 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:24,400 Speaker 5: I was covering James Earl Ray's hearings. At that time, 82 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:27,800 Speaker 5: James Earl Ray was the assassin of Martin Luther King Junior. 83 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 5: He was in the last year of his life. He 84 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:32,200 Speaker 5: had liver disease and was trying to get out of prison, 85 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:34,839 Speaker 5: and he was floating all kinds of pleadings in the 86 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:39,440 Speaker 5: criminal court in Shelby County, Tennessee. Conspiracy stories. His lawyer 87 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:42,479 Speaker 5: was coming up with these things, and they actually got 88 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:45,479 Speaker 5: the King family here in Atlanta to endorse many of 89 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:50,600 Speaker 5: these stories, and Dexter King, Martin's younger son, actually came 90 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 5: up and visited Ray in prison, shook his hand and said, you. 91 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:54,240 Speaker 4: Know, we believe you. 92 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:56,200 Speaker 5: We'll do everything in our power to get you out. 93 00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:59,240 Speaker 5: I mean, it was just a very surreal moment. And 94 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:02,760 Speaker 5: the the news traction around this story was just huge, 95 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:05,800 Speaker 5: became an international story. So I got a lot of 96 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:08,600 Speaker 5: latitude from the paper. But at that time, i'd been 97 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:12,040 Speaker 5: there about eight years to really explore some of these 98 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:15,560 Speaker 5: conspiracy stories. And you know, one of the things that 99 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 5: I found is that, I mean a lot of people 100 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:18,920 Speaker 5: think that, you know, the FBI others had a hand 101 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 5: in killing doctor King, but that really wasn't the case. 102 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:24,040 Speaker 5: I mean, they were definitely trying to destroy him politically, 103 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:28,960 Speaker 5: but Ray shot him. And but it was in exploring 104 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 5: these stories that I started interviewing former police officers in Memphis, 105 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 5: former FBI men, military intelligence. And I ran into this 106 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:40,960 Speaker 5: agent in Memphis, former a retired agent who told me, 107 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:43,839 Speaker 5: you know, giving me the background about what was going 108 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:45,920 Speaker 5: on when doctor King was in Memphis at that time. 109 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:48,680 Speaker 5: And you know, he said I had asked him if 110 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 5: they ever did electronic surveillance on King there, and he said, no, 111 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:54,719 Speaker 5: we had no need to do that, and he said 112 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 5: we had a great informant coverage. And it was in 113 00:05:57,000 --> 00:05:59,479 Speaker 5: this context that he mentioned that Ernest Withers had been 114 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:02,120 Speaker 5: an informed for the FBI, which, you know, when he 115 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:04,279 Speaker 5: told me, that kind of blew me away in the beginning, 116 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:07,159 Speaker 5: because you know, Wow, Withers, you know, he's so closely 117 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:09,360 Speaker 5: identified with the movement, you know, as you said, kind 118 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:13,560 Speaker 5: of the eye of the movement, and it was pretty startling. 119 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 5: The agent never wanted to go on the record, he said, 120 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:20,680 Speaker 5: he denied if I if I ever wrote that. So 121 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:22,479 Speaker 5: I just kind of let it alone. You know, there's 122 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 5: in the news business, there's a lot of things that 123 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:27,039 Speaker 5: wind up on the cutting room floor. I moved on 124 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:30,560 Speaker 5: when it back into covering a lot of political corruption, 125 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:33,000 Speaker 5: which was rife in Memphis at that time. It was 126 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:37,159 Speaker 5: only years later, after Ernest died that I filed a 127 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 5: Freedom of Information Act request and in the process of 128 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:45,279 Speaker 5: getting records back, I found that the FBI had left 129 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 5: his code number ME three thirty eight R, which is 130 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:51,920 Speaker 5: a unique identifier in the In FBI jargon, they call 131 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:54,919 Speaker 5: it a source symbol number. But it said in a report, 132 00:06:54,960 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 5: a background report on him from nineteen seventy seven, that 133 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:02,480 Speaker 5: he had been formally identified designated as ME three thirty 134 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:05,680 Speaker 5: eight R. And so it was a kind of a 135 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:08,719 Speaker 5: Eureka moment, you know, like, you know, Wow, this is 136 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 5: true what this guy was telling me before. And so 137 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 5: but trying to figure out how what do I do 138 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:14,640 Speaker 5: with that, you know, because it really didn't tell you 139 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:17,680 Speaker 5: much of anything. I got more records from the FBI 140 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:20,960 Speaker 5: that had been released from the from in the Night 141 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:24,680 Speaker 5: late nineteen seventies, covering that sixties period in Memphis, and 142 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 5: I found that they made the same mistake over and 143 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 5: over again again. You know that with that sore symbol 144 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 5: number being a unique identifier, you could say you substitute 145 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:36,800 Speaker 5: in Ernest Wither's name and say that he did X, 146 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:39,680 Speaker 5: Y and Z for the FBI. So I did some 147 00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 5: initial stories, and then I met the daughter of the 148 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 5: agent who had ran Withers William H. Lawrence, and she 149 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 5: and he was he was dead by then, but she 150 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 5: had saved a number of his records that she found 151 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:56,920 Speaker 5: after actually her mother passed away after her father, and 152 00:07:57,000 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 5: there were handwritten notes that he had that referred to 153 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:02,240 Speaker 5: Ernest by name, by code number. So I did more 154 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:06,280 Speaker 5: stories and then the newspaper this was a newspaper investigation. 155 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:09,520 Speaker 5: We tried to get his FBI file and they just 156 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 5: totally denied everything and said, you know, wouldn't cooperate. We 157 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:15,120 Speaker 5: sued him in court. They you know, they fought us 158 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:17,960 Speaker 5: for quite a while. In the end we wound up winning, 159 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:21,840 Speaker 5: getting a mediated settlement and they had to pay all 160 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 5: our legal fees. We'd spent like two hundred thousand dollars 161 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:27,280 Speaker 5: pursuing this. Yeah, they relied on a law that allows 162 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:29,680 Speaker 5: them to lie, and they did. They lied about it. 163 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:34,080 Speaker 5: They you know, the law exempts informant records from the 164 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:36,920 Speaker 5: Freedom of Information Act, and they can pretend like certain 165 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:40,439 Speaker 5: records don't even exist. But that would be exclusion to 166 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:44,439 Speaker 5: see as that got right, Yeah, from it was passed 167 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:46,840 Speaker 5: as part of the Anti Drug Abuse Act in nineteen 168 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:48,560 Speaker 5: eighty six under the Reagan administration. 169 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:50,080 Speaker 4: The whole idea was that was. 170 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:53,920 Speaker 5: To try to try to keep you know, these corrupt 171 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 5: drug cartels from trying to root out informants in their ranks. 172 00:08:57,559 --> 00:08:59,960 Speaker 5: You know, try by through doing a FOIA freedom of 173 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 5: information AGRID question discovering somebody. So the government said, you know, 174 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:07,240 Speaker 5: in that law that unless they first officially confirmed somebody 175 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:09,680 Speaker 5: as an informant, they don't have to release anything, they 176 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:11,560 Speaker 5: don't have to admit anything. They can lie about it. 177 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:14,000 Speaker 5: And that's what they did until it didn't work anymore, 178 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:15,960 Speaker 5: and then they had to admit in court that hey, 179 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:18,720 Speaker 5: this is what we were doing. He was an informant. 180 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 5: And that led to this mediated settlement where we got 181 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 5: all these records, you know, that really spelled out what 182 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:26,240 Speaker 5: he did over the course of eighteen years and is 183 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:27,400 Speaker 5: the foundation for the book. 184 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:29,800 Speaker 3: Was it almost like they were kind of abusing that 185 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:31,240 Speaker 3: we felt they did. 186 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean we felt that they, you know, this 187 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:36,520 Speaker 5: law was set up for a certain purpose to you know, 188 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:39,080 Speaker 5: to keep these you know, drug cartels where you know, 189 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:42,880 Speaker 5: their whole business is murder and whatnot, you know, and 190 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:45,120 Speaker 5: that's what it was set up for. And we felt 191 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:49,080 Speaker 5: that they were hiding this whole these political informants from 192 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:51,400 Speaker 5: the sixties and seventies period where all they had all 193 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:53,720 Speaker 5: these insidious political investigations going on. 194 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 1: And what's fascinating about this book is that in this work, 195 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 1: we're learning worries concurrently, both the legal fight that that 196 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 1: you and your team at the paper had to had 197 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:11,040 Speaker 1: to go into against the FBI, as well as Ernest 198 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 1: Withers as a human being. 199 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:16,360 Speaker 5: Well. Ernest. Ernest was born and raised in Memphis, and 200 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:19,160 Speaker 5: he was he fought in World War Two in the 201 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 5: Pacific Theater. And actually that's where he learned to become 202 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:24,319 Speaker 5: a photographer. He he was he was trained with the 203 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:28,520 Speaker 5: Army photography school there and started shooting out in the Pacific, 204 00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:31,640 Speaker 5: shooting pictures of h of servicemen, you know, and they'd 205 00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 5: sell them, you know, for two dollars apiece, or trade 206 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:35,520 Speaker 5: a canna beer, you know, to get more film to 207 00:10:35,559 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 5: shoot more pictures. He really learned that that the trade there. 208 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 5: And when he came back to Memphis, of course, he 209 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:42,760 Speaker 5: wants to start out in a business and he launches 210 00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:47,760 Speaker 5: a small studio there and he starts shooting pictures documenting 211 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:51,800 Speaker 5: life in the African American community in Memphis. And he 212 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:54,480 Speaker 5: goes shoots the Negro League's baseball games, you know, the 213 00:10:54,760 --> 00:10:57,320 Speaker 5: Memphis Red Sox, and he meets a lot of you know, 214 00:10:57,400 --> 00:11:01,360 Speaker 5: big stars, Satchel Page, you know, and and and Jackie Robbinson, 215 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:03,480 Speaker 5: all these these guys who went on to become you know, 216 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:07,439 Speaker 5: huge in America. He knew you before nobody, nobody knew 217 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:08,199 Speaker 5: them well. 218 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:10,600 Speaker 2: And he couldn't get access to a lot of the 219 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:13,480 Speaker 2: white versions of what he was photographing at that time. 220 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:16,199 Speaker 5: And absolutely not right. I mean, you know, it was segregated. 221 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:17,880 Speaker 5: Memphis was, you know, like the rest of the South 222 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:20,800 Speaker 5: was segregated at that time. But you know, Ernest was 223 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:23,960 Speaker 5: very enterprising. So he opens a studio on Beal Street. 224 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 5: At the same time that he you know, this is 225 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:28,880 Speaker 5: the late forties, he also became one of the first 226 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:32,280 Speaker 5: African American police officers for the city of Memphis. They 227 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:34,640 Speaker 5: had a lot of police brutality in that town and 228 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:37,160 Speaker 5: they still do to this day. But that was kind 229 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:41,040 Speaker 5: of the the impetus for the city decided we need 230 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:43,800 Speaker 5: to recruit some black officers because they would have better 231 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 5: rapport with a lot of the citizens. In Ernest was 232 00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 5: becoming one of the you know, in that first recruit 233 00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:50,560 Speaker 5: class nineteen forty eight. He's one of what they called 234 00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:53,520 Speaker 5: the original nine. And so he's working all these jobs. 235 00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:55,920 Speaker 5: He's working a beat a beat down on Beal Street, 236 00:11:55,880 --> 00:11:58,360 Speaker 5: as a cop, you know, and at night he's down 237 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:01,240 Speaker 5: on Beal Street hustling foe, you know, taking pictures of 238 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:04,880 Speaker 5: BB King and Howling Wolf and others who you know again, 239 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:07,200 Speaker 5: you know, they would become household names, but back then 240 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:09,560 Speaker 5: they were just guys on Beal Street playing, you know, 241 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:13,160 Speaker 5: playing down there, and he would sell pictures to tourists 242 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:17,240 Speaker 5: and fans and whatnot. He wound up that the police 243 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:19,160 Speaker 5: thing didn't work out for him. I mean, he got 244 00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:22,599 Speaker 5: hooked up in the city's you know corruption, there's a 245 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:25,320 Speaker 5: lot of corruption in the police department. Was he was 246 00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:29,120 Speaker 5: working with a bootlegger selling selling whiskey, was petty, petty corruption. 247 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:31,720 Speaker 5: Wound up losing his job. But I mean that really 248 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:33,960 Speaker 5: was the best thing that ever happened to him, because 249 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:37,600 Speaker 5: you know that nineteen fifty one he starts going to 250 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:40,800 Speaker 5: work for as a freelancer for the Tri State Defender, 251 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:44,840 Speaker 5: which was the satellite operation for the Chicago Defender. And 252 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:48,120 Speaker 5: after a few years, all things start happening. I mean, 253 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:50,920 Speaker 5: the civil rights movement starts blossoming, you know, and at 254 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 5: till Is killed down in Mississippi, and he goes down 255 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:56,079 Speaker 5: and covers that, and you know, then there's the Montgomery 256 00:12:56,080 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 5: bus boycott. He's covering that too, So his career, you know, 257 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:03,760 Speaker 5: just really mirrored what was going on at that time. 258 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:06,200 Speaker 5: It was perfect timing, and he always had that perfect 259 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:14,520 Speaker 5: timing the access and everything. 260 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:21,720 Speaker 1: As we're tracing the evolution of his career, his multiple careers, 261 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:26,880 Speaker 1: we do see that corruption is a larger theme or 262 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:32,440 Speaker 1: overarching and when we're looking at the beginning of his 263 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 1: involvement with the FBI, it seems that it may have 264 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:39,400 Speaker 1: started around nineteen fifty eight or so. 265 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:40,120 Speaker 4: Is that correct? 266 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:42,680 Speaker 5: It did, yeah, I mean the first records in his 267 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:45,679 Speaker 5: file that show him cooperating with the FBI were from 268 00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:49,120 Speaker 5: nineteen fifty eight. It's very sketchy about that three year 269 00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:52,440 Speaker 5: period about what he was doing at that time. But 270 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:55,480 Speaker 5: the very first incident that we know of that he 271 00:13:56,720 --> 00:13:59,840 Speaker 5: acted in an informant role is in Little Rock, Arkansas, 272 00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 5: during the aftermath of the school crisis. There he comes 273 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:06,559 Speaker 5: into the field office with Simeon Booker. This is very 274 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:09,800 Speaker 5: interesting because these were still the movement's early days. Simon 275 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:12,680 Speaker 5: Booker is a huge journalist. He worked for Jet magazine. 276 00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:16,160 Speaker 5: You know, he just recently passed away. But Ernest through 277 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:18,760 Speaker 5: you know, working with a Defender and Jet Magazine got 278 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:22,080 Speaker 5: to know Simon and really trailed him, you know, throughout 279 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:24,240 Speaker 5: the South, and the two of them come into the 280 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:27,680 Speaker 5: field office there and they're they're informing on James Foreman, 281 00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:30,400 Speaker 5: you know, another movement icon, you know, and back at 282 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:33,560 Speaker 5: that time, James Foreman was just a school teacher who 283 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 5: in the time part time that he had would come 284 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:39,000 Speaker 5: down and start showing up at all these civil rights skirmishes. 285 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:42,280 Speaker 5: And of course the FBI, which is picking up this 286 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:44,480 Speaker 5: and he's showing up on the radar, is you know, 287 00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:49,160 Speaker 5: views him very dimly. He's associated with people with you know, 288 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:53,760 Speaker 5: communist credentials. He's viewed as a suspected communist. They're very suspicious. 289 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:59,040 Speaker 5: So Simeon Booker and Withers are they're kicking back information 290 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:03,040 Speaker 5: about you know, they're dim view of James Foruman and uh. 291 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:06,120 Speaker 5: But you know, Booker had his own controversy as an informer. 292 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:09,040 Speaker 5: I mean, he was never paid, but he had a 293 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:13,160 Speaker 5: relationship with the FBI. And he explained that when he 294 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:15,400 Speaker 5: was interviewed by the Washington Post late in his life 295 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:17,840 Speaker 5: and said that that you know, back in those days 296 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:20,080 Speaker 5: and when I went down South, I wanted to come 297 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:23,320 Speaker 5: back alive, and he very much feared the local yocles 298 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:25,480 Speaker 5: down there, you know, the police departments, they were racist, 299 00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 5: you know, But the FBI had a little bit different reputation. 300 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:31,960 Speaker 5: I mean, this was the before all this stuff came 301 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:34,920 Speaker 5: out about Hoover and how he tried to destroy King 302 00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 5: and really you know, tried to tried to infiltrate the 303 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 5: movement as he did. And so, you know, Booker looked 304 00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:43,840 Speaker 5: at the FBI as a friend, as an ally, and 305 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 5: he did some puff pieces for them, you know, and 306 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:50,280 Speaker 5: they they helped him out at times. There's no evidence 307 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:53,120 Speaker 5: that I know of that he ever named names like 308 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:57,560 Speaker 5: some like you know, Ernest eventually got into but it 309 00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:00,680 Speaker 5: really seems, you know, the best, the best information is 310 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:05,320 Speaker 5: that that relationship was initially cultivated somehow through Simon Booker. 311 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 5: Ernest gets this idea that these are good guys. Sketchy 312 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:11,640 Speaker 5: from what he was doing fifty eight to sixty one, 313 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 5: but in nineteen sixty one, the whole landscape down their changes. 314 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:19,480 Speaker 5: In Memphis, you have what they call the tent city 315 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 5: operations where in the metro area, their rural Fayette County, 316 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:27,760 Speaker 5: all these sharecroppers were trying to register to vote and 317 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:29,960 Speaker 5: they were being kicked off their land for doing that. 318 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:34,640 Speaker 5: And so they they start living in these encampments kind 319 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:36,720 Speaker 5: of like an Oakie encampment where they're living in tents, 320 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:40,880 Speaker 5: and all these relief agencies from the north start coming 321 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 5: into a system. The Congress und Racial Equality was one 322 00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:46,640 Speaker 5: of them. Again, the FBI saying, wait a minute. You know, 323 00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 5: they're looking at these guys outside agitators, people with left credentials, communists. 324 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:54,040 Speaker 5: They want to know who these guys are. They want 325 00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:56,960 Speaker 5: to monitor them. And so and Ernest is out there 326 00:16:56,960 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 5: shooting pictures. So Bill Lawrence, the FBI agent who ran 327 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:05,200 Speaker 5: the domestic intelligence operations in Memphis for the better part 328 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:10,040 Speaker 5: of a quarter century, they start crossing paths and they 329 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:13,199 Speaker 5: start a relationship and hit it off pretty famously. They 330 00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:17,600 Speaker 5: had a lot in common. I mean, Lawrence was you know, religious, 331 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:20,680 Speaker 5: he was he was raised Baptists. Withers was raised Baptist. 332 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:25,080 Speaker 5: They both liked music. Lawrence, Bill Lawrence had a huge 333 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:28,600 Speaker 5: jazz collection, you know, records, and so he would use 334 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:31,119 Speaker 5: that as a as a tool in his trade to 335 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:35,240 Speaker 5: you know, build rapport with people. He recruited a member 336 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:38,280 Speaker 5: of the NCAA leadership in Memphis because of that relationship. 337 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:40,840 Speaker 5: They both had big jazz collector. They'd swapped records back 338 00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:43,000 Speaker 5: and forth. So he was a Lawrence was a guy 339 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:45,360 Speaker 5: who could, who could really he had a big personality, 340 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:49,239 Speaker 5: affable guy, very much like Withers, you know. Uh, he 341 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:51,520 Speaker 5: knew how to work it. And and these guys hit 342 00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:54,560 Speaker 5: it off. And so they're they're starting to send Ernest 343 00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:57,720 Speaker 5: out to the tense city operations. At the same time 344 00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:01,000 Speaker 5: nineteen sixty one, Freedom Writer are starting to come home. 345 00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:04,159 Speaker 5: They're coming back from Jackson and whatnot. And some of 346 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:07,840 Speaker 5: these guys don't fit the the old school mold. I 347 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:10,080 Speaker 5: mean they're they're more militant. I mean, they're not militant 348 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:12,040 Speaker 5: and the think of the sense of the late sixties, 349 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 5: you know, black power and that. But these guys are 350 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:17,280 Speaker 5: more into direct action kind of you know, we're not 351 00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:19,480 Speaker 5: going to wait, We're not going to let you resolve 352 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:21,520 Speaker 5: this through the slow wheels of justice in court. We 353 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:23,800 Speaker 5: want it now kind of thing. And they were very 354 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:26,119 Speaker 5: the FBI, very suspicious that sort of thing. But Ernest, 355 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:28,480 Speaker 5: because he'd been a beat cop for all those years, 356 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:31,840 Speaker 5: a studio photographer, freelance news and he knew all these 357 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:33,439 Speaker 5: people and he could. He that's a great thing that 358 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:35,400 Speaker 5: he could do. He could he could tell them who 359 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:37,520 Speaker 5: they were. He knew their relatives, he could tell the 360 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:41,119 Speaker 5: home addresses. As they were building these dossier's, you know, 361 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:44,080 Speaker 5: he could get an identification picture because he was a photographer. 362 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:46,639 Speaker 5: He was very valuable to them. And you know, at 363 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:49,719 Speaker 5: the same time, nineteen sixty one, the Nation of Islam 364 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:53,000 Speaker 5: starts appearing in rural the rural South and really makes 365 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:56,240 Speaker 5: its first appearance in Memphis. They open a mosque on 366 00:18:56,280 --> 00:18:58,840 Speaker 5: Beal Street, and you know, the FBI, course they're intent 367 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:01,800 Speaker 5: is up on them too, very suspicious, and again, Ernest 368 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:05,120 Speaker 5: he knows them all. He actually, you know, goes into 369 00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:08,880 Speaker 5: their operations and takes you know, what are posed portraits 370 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:12,280 Speaker 5: and they you know, gives them to the FBI. The 371 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:14,720 Speaker 5: FBI cuts up all the portraits, so they start building 372 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:19,760 Speaker 5: these dossiers where they're they're cutting the individual individual images 373 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 5: into face shots that are you know, then you know 374 00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 5: they're building all these dossiers. So he was immensely helpful 375 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:28,280 Speaker 5: to him. And you know, Lawrence knew he had a 376 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:29,639 Speaker 5: good thing from the very get go. 377 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:32,879 Speaker 3: You mentioned one of the first pieces of evidence that 378 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:35,800 Speaker 3: you came across was this code number that he had, 379 00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:38,040 Speaker 3: and I believe you said initially it was three thirty 380 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:40,600 Speaker 3: eight R, right, But then he kind of got upgraded, 381 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:43,520 Speaker 3: right or not maybe to upgrade with a different type 382 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:45,560 Speaker 3: of informant are being He was meant to be like 383 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:46,520 Speaker 3: a racial informant. 384 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:49,080 Speaker 5: So you know, the the R was for designated a 385 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:50,960 Speaker 5: racial informant. And there's kind of a lot of you know, 386 00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:54,479 Speaker 5: arcane history and all that. But initially, when Lawrence got 387 00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:58,000 Speaker 5: ahold of him, he wanted to make him a confidential informant. 388 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 5: His ernest's history has with the Memphis Police Department came 389 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:06,479 Speaker 5: back to haunt him at that point, because you know, 390 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:09,439 Speaker 5: anybody who becomes a paid informant for the FBI has 391 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:11,640 Speaker 5: to be approved by Washington, and so the Memphis Field 392 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:14,880 Speaker 5: Office is trying to get approval there, and Lawrence senses 393 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:18,199 Speaker 5: some hesitancy. You know, he goes to interview the police 394 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:22,920 Speaker 5: chief of the Memphis Police and J. C. 395 00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:23,600 Speaker 4: MacDonald. 396 00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:25,320 Speaker 5: He had a very dim view of whether its game 397 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:28,359 Speaker 5: a really bad recommendation. So Lawrence kind of hedges it 398 00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:30,040 Speaker 5: and he says, you know, we're not going to make 399 00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:33,360 Speaker 5: him a confidential informant at this time. But he has 400 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:35,920 Speaker 5: so much information in what they call racial matters in 401 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:41,080 Speaker 5: the racial field that he made him a potential confidential informant, 402 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:43,480 Speaker 5: was a kind of a probationary status that they kept 403 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:46,120 Speaker 5: him in for two years, which is a long time 404 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:50,320 Speaker 5: to be a PCI. And would you know, it was 405 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:52,760 Speaker 5: kind of a dubious situation because you know, they would 406 00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:55,919 Speaker 5: they would direct him going out into the field. But 407 00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:57,800 Speaker 5: a couple of years later, you know, the movement in 408 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:02,320 Speaker 5: Memphis is really slow than through the mid to late sixties, 409 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:04,560 Speaker 5: and so they downgraded Ernest at that time to a 410 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:07,360 Speaker 5: confidential source, which is kind of like a reference desk 411 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:08,159 Speaker 5: kind of guy like that. 412 00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:10,920 Speaker 4: I was just okaying, So not. 413 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:15,240 Speaker 3: The same deal as police officers getting street informants. A 414 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:19,640 Speaker 3: much more significant vetting process and you have to meet 415 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:20,760 Speaker 3: a certain criteria. 416 00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:23,760 Speaker 5: They didn't want the control from the FBI. The bureau 417 00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:25,480 Speaker 5: would be looking over their shoulder, and he wanted to 418 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:27,399 Speaker 5: be able to use Withers, you know, it has some 419 00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:30,760 Speaker 5: freedom to use him. And so when he he met 420 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:33,560 Speaker 5: for about four years, they made him a confidential source, 421 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:37,480 Speaker 5: which is sort of a lesser informant, but he was 422 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:39,520 Speaker 5: doing kind of the really the same same thing for 423 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:41,280 Speaker 5: them for four years was kind of like you the 424 00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 5: answer man in the in the black community for them. 425 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:46,720 Speaker 5: And then finally he didn't get the code number E 426 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:50,680 Speaker 5: three thirty eight R until nineteen sixty seven. And by then, 427 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:55,040 Speaker 5: you know, you had the unrest is really blossoming through 428 00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:57,520 Speaker 5: the country. You know, you had the riots and Watts 429 00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:00,399 Speaker 5: and then and then Newerk in Detroit, and the government 430 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:04,159 Speaker 5: is really really paranoid at that point, and they started 431 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:07,359 Speaker 5: something called the Ghetto Informant Program and they swung Ernest 432 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:08,000 Speaker 5: into that game. 433 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:08,840 Speaker 4: The code number. 434 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:12,639 Speaker 5: He worked under that code number for about four years 435 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 5: and then they tweaked it in nineteen seventy one. He 436 00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:19,080 Speaker 5: became ME three thirty eight E for Extremist Informant and 437 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:21,320 Speaker 5: had a lot of his investigations at that point were 438 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:25,199 Speaker 5: focused pretty much on black power. But you know, what 439 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:28,320 Speaker 5: they considered extremist. Although you know what they considered extremists. 440 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:30,240 Speaker 5: You know, we we just probably look at somebody who's 441 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:32,720 Speaker 5: just an activist, who's you know, trying to trying to 442 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:34,119 Speaker 5: stand up for civil rights. 443 00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:37,920 Speaker 1: And one important point to establish about Lawrence's background here, 444 00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:42,080 Speaker 1: which you provide in the context of the relationship with 445 00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:47,400 Speaker 1: Withers is that Lawrence is in his later forties right 446 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:50,760 Speaker 1: when this begins, and he's already made his name, yes, 447 00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:56,680 Speaker 1: busting communist threats specifically right, and it seems that one 448 00:22:56,720 --> 00:23:01,919 Speaker 1: of his primary motivating factors is the fear on the 449 00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:06,959 Speaker 1: part of the Bureau that these groups that fuel disenfranchised 450 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:10,480 Speaker 1: or left out would swing to the communist's sides. 451 00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:14,080 Speaker 5: Absolutely absolutely, And that was the thing is that the FBI, 452 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:17,200 Speaker 5: you know, Bill Lawrence was very much a cold warrior. 453 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:18,240 Speaker 4: I mean his his career. 454 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:20,720 Speaker 5: He cut his teeth right after he got in the 455 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:23,560 Speaker 5: bureau right after World War Two, you know, in the 456 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:26,480 Speaker 5: late forties, you know, when when when the Chinese and 457 00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:29,280 Speaker 5: the Soviets get the atomic bomb like forty nine, and 458 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:31,000 Speaker 5: that this is when he's really going at it an 459 00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:34,439 Speaker 5: internal security and in the early fifties, they they just 460 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:39,639 Speaker 5: eviscerate the Communist party in Memphis. James Eastland, the well 461 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:43,920 Speaker 5: known segregationist senator from Mississippi, had hearings in Memphis and 462 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:48,840 Speaker 5: his work product was largely Bill Lawrence's investigations. And they, 463 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:51,160 Speaker 5: you know, ran all these communists out of town, people 464 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:54,600 Speaker 5: who are involved in the labor movement there Lawrence and 465 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:58,800 Speaker 5: arrest Junius Scales, who you know, was a Communist Party 466 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:02,080 Speaker 5: leader down there was a very famous case. He's he's 467 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:05,840 Speaker 5: seen viewed today as the only man to go to 468 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 5: prison for being simply for being a member of the 469 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:12,040 Speaker 5: Communist Party or a political party. I mean, they prosecuted 470 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:14,480 Speaker 5: him under the Smith Act. But there was all this 471 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:17,200 Speaker 5: paranoia and in Memphis, is in a lot of places 472 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:19,920 Speaker 5: across the country, the FBI went hard after the FBI, 473 00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:22,639 Speaker 5: and they basically wiped them out. And so, you know, 474 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:25,399 Speaker 5: by the time the sixties come around and there's you 475 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:27,960 Speaker 5: know that the movement, the civil rights moment starts blossoming. 476 00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:31,920 Speaker 5: They're they're very much worried about communist influences, you know, 477 00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:33,800 Speaker 5: and a lot of this stuff is like red baiting. 478 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:37,600 Speaker 5: You know, this really a version of racism. You know that, 479 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:40,280 Speaker 5: you know, you guys are troublemakers, agitators. A lot of 480 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:42,439 Speaker 5: this trickled down from the top from Hoover. You know 481 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:44,760 Speaker 5: that anybody who was involved in that sort of thing 482 00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:47,120 Speaker 5: what had to be some kind of communists. And so 483 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:52,800 Speaker 5: they went after these these outside agitators, these groups very zealously. 484 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:55,600 Speaker 5: They wanted they wanted to contain them, they wanted to 485 00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:59,360 Speaker 5: you know, keep them, keep them from influencing the movement there. 486 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:02,760 Speaker 5: And the thing too, the n double ACP in Memphis, 487 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:04,520 Speaker 5: so that they did a lot of good work, you know, 488 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:07,080 Speaker 5: on behalf of civil rights on the whole. They were 489 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:12,199 Speaker 5: pretty conservative organization. They they wanted to move slowly and cautiously. 490 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:15,040 Speaker 5: They believed in litigating in court to get your rights 491 00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:17,200 Speaker 5: versus you know, kind of the Martin Luther King thing 492 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:19,920 Speaker 5: of direct action, getting in the street, the sit ins 493 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:22,800 Speaker 5: and whatnot and protesting and so and he had, you know, 494 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:26,199 Speaker 5: developed good sources within the NAACP leadership. He had at 495 00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:29,320 Speaker 5: least three key figures there who were informants who were 496 00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:31,960 Speaker 5: kicking back information to him, and they you know, he 497 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:35,640 Speaker 5: would influence them and they wouldn't, you know, try to 498 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:37,879 Speaker 5: go along with a lot of things that you know 499 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:40,440 Speaker 5: that he and the larger society were saying they didn't 500 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:41,920 Speaker 5: go for a lot of this stuff, and they because 501 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:44,359 Speaker 5: they didn't. It was a lot of it was preserving 502 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:47,879 Speaker 5: the status quo they wanted. They thought they were protecting 503 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:51,480 Speaker 5: the country's internal stability by keeping law and order, keeping 504 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:53,760 Speaker 5: things peaceful. You get your rights, but you can get 505 00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:55,280 Speaker 5: them later, but you're gonna you're gonna have to slow 506 00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:56,520 Speaker 5: walk this wow. 507 00:25:56,520 --> 00:26:01,359 Speaker 1: And then the question becomes, what next? Are they successful? 508 00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:05,680 Speaker 1: How far did this conflict go in Memphis, Tennessee and 509 00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:09,240 Speaker 1: later the United States? We'll find out after a word 510 00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:20,879 Speaker 1: from our sponsors, and we're back to focus on the 511 00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:27,400 Speaker 1: scene as it's playing out. So Withers is working with Lawrence, 512 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:32,120 Speaker 1: and Lawrence's primary concern is ultimately the rise of communism. 513 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:37,080 Speaker 1: Did Withers share this concern? Was he ideologically motivated to 514 00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:38,280 Speaker 1: function as an informant? 515 00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:42,320 Speaker 5: I think he was ideologically motivated, certainly when it came 516 00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:44,439 Speaker 5: to the war. I mean him being a World War 517 00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:47,199 Speaker 5: Two veteran, and by the time the sixties, you know, 518 00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:50,320 Speaker 5: mid sixties, he's heavily invested in the military. He's got 519 00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:53,280 Speaker 5: three kids, and the military's got one in the front 520 00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:57,840 Speaker 5: lines in Vietnam. So certainly when it came to, you know, 521 00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:00,960 Speaker 5: the war, I think he was heavily invested in, invested 522 00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:05,800 Speaker 5: in that that ideology. I think a lot of his 523 00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:07,960 Speaker 5: motivation came from the need for money. I mean, he 524 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:10,760 Speaker 5: had eight kids, he was always hustling up a living. 525 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:13,280 Speaker 5: He could never really make it out of the kind 526 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:16,760 Speaker 5: of the middle lower middle class life that he had, 527 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:19,280 Speaker 5: so that was a big factor for him as well, 528 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:24,360 Speaker 5: and ideologically too. Again he was a Memphis man and 529 00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:27,320 Speaker 5: the influence of the NAACP was great. They didn't go 530 00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:29,359 Speaker 5: for a lot of this confrontational stuff, you know, the 531 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:33,200 Speaker 5: agitators that those are the folks that were really viewed suspiciously. 532 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:37,120 Speaker 1: You do mention the financial motivation, which I think Noel, 533 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:40,800 Speaker 1: Matt and I collectively found very interesting. As as you 534 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:46,160 Speaker 1: established earlier, many of the informants were unpaid, right right, 535 00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:50,239 Speaker 1: and Withers himself is an exception to this rule. And 536 00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:54,000 Speaker 1: you were actually able to discover the total amount of 537 00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:56,040 Speaker 1: money that he received his compensation. 538 00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:57,080 Speaker 4: Is that correct? That's right. 539 00:27:57,119 --> 00:27:59,120 Speaker 5: Well, the reason we did that is because I made 540 00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:01,560 Speaker 5: sure that when we saw with the FBI, they stipulated 541 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:04,119 Speaker 5: how much he got paid. Because the thing was is 542 00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:06,720 Speaker 5: that when we did this deal, they said they wanted 543 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:08,879 Speaker 5: to save face. They did not want to have to 544 00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:12,200 Speaker 5: reach into an informant file and bring out informant records 545 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:14,760 Speaker 5: that would show things like how much he got paid, 546 00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:17,439 Speaker 5: how he's recruited, you know, how he was directed and 547 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:17,760 Speaker 5: what not. 548 00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:19,960 Speaker 3: Well, the other informants are going to want to get 549 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:20,360 Speaker 3: paid the. 550 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:22,960 Speaker 5: Same well, yeah, right, I mean there's I guess there's 551 00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:27,640 Speaker 5: you know, a negotiation thing issue there, but but yeah, 552 00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:30,600 Speaker 5: I'm so we stipulated in there that they would tell 553 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:33,720 Speaker 5: us the amount, and what it was was twenty thousand 554 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:36,639 Speaker 5: dollars over those eighteen years. Now, that doesn't sound like 555 00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:38,640 Speaker 5: a whole lot of money, but when you think about it, 556 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:40,920 Speaker 5: you got to think about inflation. You know, that money 557 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:42,960 Speaker 5: today would be about one hundred and forty or one 558 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:45,600 Speaker 5: hundred and fifty thousand dollars. So if he's getting paid 559 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:48,080 Speaker 5: that kind of money over eighteen years, that's about maybe 560 00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:50,440 Speaker 5: six to eight thousand dollars a year. I mean, that 561 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:52,720 Speaker 5: would get you. That would put food on the table, 562 00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:55,440 Speaker 5: You got eight kids to feed, You get gas for 563 00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:57,320 Speaker 5: your vehicles, and help you pay him mortgage. I mean, 564 00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:00,560 Speaker 5: it's nothing to sneeze at. So the financial thing, I 565 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:06,360 Speaker 5: think weighs into this heavily more so than the ideological part. 566 00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:08,320 Speaker 5: And as a matter of fact, my initial source told 567 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:11,760 Speaker 5: me point blank and his view, he said, Ernest was 568 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:12,600 Speaker 5: in it for the money. 569 00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:15,080 Speaker 3: But I mean, you know, given the situation with his 570 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:19,000 Speaker 3: career as a police officer, he obviously didn't have scruples 571 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:22,800 Speaker 3: about you know, doing things under the table, or doing 572 00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:24,959 Speaker 3: things that weren't necessarily legal. 573 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:25,640 Speaker 4: Right well. 574 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:27,160 Speaker 5: I mean the thing too is that, you know, I 575 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:29,080 Speaker 5: try not to judge Ernest. I mean, he was a 576 00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:31,560 Speaker 5: man of his times. That police department was very corrupt, 577 00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:33,080 Speaker 5: and there were a lot of guys who were doing 578 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:35,480 Speaker 5: the same sorts of thing, And there's a strong arrient 579 00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:38,440 Speaker 5: to be made that they rooted him out because he 580 00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:40,760 Speaker 5: was black. I think racism does play a role in 581 00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:42,720 Speaker 5: into it, although I don't think it excuses him in 582 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:44,640 Speaker 5: that regard. But yeah, I mean there was a lot 583 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:46,280 Speaker 5: of corruption in Memphis. 584 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:51,560 Speaker 1: Still is, and the extent of his work with Lawrence 585 00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:55,960 Speaker 1: and the FBI was not the kind of James Bond 586 00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:58,160 Speaker 1: stuff we would imagine with a secret agent. It was, 587 00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:02,560 Speaker 1: as we said, it was almost entirely surveillance and reporting. 588 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:03,719 Speaker 4: Is that correct? Right well? 589 00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:05,280 Speaker 5: I mean a lot of people think, you know, when 590 00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:09,720 Speaker 5: somebody's an informant, they think, you know, somebody covertly working undercover, 591 00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:13,200 Speaker 5: playing a role infiltrating a criminal organization, which is kind 592 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:17,360 Speaker 5: of the classic you know informant that you'd have. These 593 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:19,760 Speaker 5: operations didn't work like that. I mean, he was an 594 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:23,040 Speaker 5: intelligence informant and what they were trying to do. I mean, 595 00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:26,000 Speaker 5: the FBI, they weren't trying to prosecute most of these 596 00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:28,480 Speaker 5: people because they couldn't. They'd had their wings clipped in 597 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:30,800 Speaker 5: so many rulings that you know, a lot of these 598 00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:33,840 Speaker 5: operations were actually technically illegal, you know, especially when you 599 00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:35,840 Speaker 5: get into the co intel pro stuff. They never had 600 00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:38,560 Speaker 5: authorization from Congress or any law or anything. 601 00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:39,239 Speaker 4: They just did it. 602 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:42,959 Speaker 5: But you know what these intelligence informants would do, they 603 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:46,360 Speaker 5: were trying to collect wide swaths of personal and political 604 00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:50,320 Speaker 5: information that the FBI could use to monitor people, to 605 00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:52,800 Speaker 5: help contain them, and sometimes to act against them. And 606 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:55,080 Speaker 5: so that's what he was doing. He had no need 607 00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:58,120 Speaker 5: to be you know, cloak and dag or undercover. All 608 00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:00,840 Speaker 5: the all Ernest had to do was be earnest to 609 00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:04,360 Speaker 5: get the information they needed because he had incredible access. 610 00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:06,560 Speaker 5: He'd show up with his cameras. Everybody let him in, 611 00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:09,720 Speaker 5: whether it was meetings, marches, and beloved right, and it 612 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:12,120 Speaker 5: was he still is beloved, and you know, and if 613 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:14,560 Speaker 5: I haven't said this yet, I should. I mean, he 614 00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:18,160 Speaker 5: is a legitimate civil rights hero. I've said this many times. 615 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:21,440 Speaker 5: I don't think anything he did for the FBI eclipses 616 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:23,400 Speaker 5: the good that he did for the movement. His pictures 617 00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:26,280 Speaker 5: are just overwhelming and very powerful, and they were powerful 618 00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:28,400 Speaker 5: in their time and they are now. But I do 619 00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:30,920 Speaker 5: think this hidden history rivals what he was doing. I mean, 620 00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:34,800 Speaker 5: it's it's a history that's very instructive for you know, us, 621 00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:35,920 Speaker 5: if you know, if we want to live in a 622 00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:38,320 Speaker 5: true democracy. You know, a lot of stuff that they 623 00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:40,880 Speaker 5: were doing, building files on people, it was it really 624 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:43,200 Speaker 5: was crazy stuff. I mean it was a lot of 625 00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:43,840 Speaker 5: it was illegal. 626 00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:50,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's fascinating to imagine him inside Martin Luther King's 627 00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:53,120 Speaker 2: hotel room. There's a picture of MLK sitting on the 628 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:56,080 Speaker 2: bed holding up newspaper, and you just imagine Earnest being 629 00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:59,400 Speaker 2: in there and just that close with him at all 630 00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:01,720 Speaker 2: times as much as possible. 631 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:02,120 Speaker 5: He was. 632 00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:03,200 Speaker 4: He was very trusted. 633 00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:06,600 Speaker 5: You know. I do think that the connection between Ernest 634 00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:09,440 Speaker 5: and Martin Luther King has been hyped a bit. Yeah, 635 00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:12,880 Speaker 5: you know, King was you know, based in Atlanta and 636 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:16,520 Speaker 5: Withers was in Memphis. King didn't come to Memphis a 637 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:21,200 Speaker 5: whole lot, and Withers was an informant for Bill Lawrence 638 00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:23,800 Speaker 5: in the Memphis Field office. So even though you know 639 00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:26,600 Speaker 5: he would go out to these various civil rights events. 640 00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:30,520 Speaker 5: It would take him down into Alabama and Mississippi, Arkansas, 641 00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:33,200 Speaker 5: you know, kind of a lot of places, but the 642 00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:37,680 Speaker 5: bulk of his operations was right there in Memphis, and 643 00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:40,320 Speaker 5: so there wasn't a whole lot of opportunity. King came 644 00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:42,520 Speaker 5: to Memphis, you know, in the late fifties. He came 645 00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:44,720 Speaker 5: there in nineteen sixty six for the March Against Fear, 646 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:46,800 Speaker 5: and then he came there three times in the spring 647 00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:50,800 Speaker 5: of nineteen sixty eight. So you know, even that said, 648 00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:54,880 Speaker 5: I mean, yeah, I mean King's staff loved Ernest every 649 00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:57,000 Speaker 5: time they came there that you know, he and Ernest 650 00:32:57,000 --> 00:32:58,400 Speaker 5: had that big personality. 651 00:32:58,440 --> 00:32:59,240 Speaker 4: I mean, he would. 652 00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:02,400 Speaker 5: Joke and they really liked him, trusted him. You know, 653 00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:04,440 Speaker 5: I mentioned in these pictures that you're talking about, you know, 654 00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:06,840 Speaker 5: you know who could have got pictures like that exactly? 655 00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:10,080 Speaker 5: You know, you know, doctor King, you know, just relaxing 656 00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:12,800 Speaker 5: totally on his bed and not seemingly not a care 657 00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:15,640 Speaker 5: in the world. You know, it's they really are amazing pictures. 658 00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:18,800 Speaker 1: Now, Withers had over the course of his work with 659 00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:24,320 Speaker 1: the FBI several we'd call him close calls, right, yeah, yeah, 660 00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:27,720 Speaker 1: and one of the questions that we had was a 661 00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:31,760 Speaker 1: what if scenario? What would have happened had he been 662 00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:35,240 Speaker 1: caught or exposed, Because in the book, there are several 663 00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:39,720 Speaker 1: instances where someone hears him talking on the phone to 664 00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:44,080 Speaker 1: someone yes, or where activists who have been questioned or 665 00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:47,600 Speaker 1: targeted by the FBI come to him and say what's 666 00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:51,920 Speaker 1: going on? So, what would have happened had the had 667 00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:53,600 Speaker 1: he reached that jiggers up situation? 668 00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:58,320 Speaker 5: Well, if it had happened, I think in in the 669 00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:02,760 Speaker 5: the heat of nineteen sixty eight, during the volatile sanitation strike, 670 00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:06,800 Speaker 5: I think that he quite possibly could have his reputation 671 00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:09,479 Speaker 5: could have been severely damaged, and I think he would 672 00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:12,200 Speaker 5: have been viewed quite possibly as a trader at that point. 673 00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:14,680 Speaker 5: You know, there were a number of people were who 674 00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:18,320 Speaker 5: were working with the Memphis Police Department, which worked close, 675 00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:21,480 Speaker 5: very closely with the FBI. There and a lot of 676 00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:24,520 Speaker 5: these investigations and they were found out and you know, 677 00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:29,239 Speaker 5: there's a report of one instance where an officer who's 678 00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:32,319 Speaker 5: there undercover is literally dragged up onto the stage in 679 00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:34,520 Speaker 5: front of all these people. They scrip him of his 680 00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:37,600 Speaker 5: gun and his mace can and they basically were going 681 00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:39,120 Speaker 5: to you know, rough him up, and it was only 682 00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:42,440 Speaker 5: because some women came and intervened that that they let 683 00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:44,719 Speaker 5: him go. And you know, one of one of the 684 00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:48,080 Speaker 5: big pastors there, h t Raelph Jackson, who became a 685 00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:51,279 Speaker 5: movement leader during the sanitation strike. You know, at one 686 00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:55,000 Speaker 5: point during the strike, there were so many so much 687 00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:57,720 Speaker 5: pressure to you know, from the police to provide information. 688 00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:00,720 Speaker 5: He's there the pulpit and you know, in the crowd 689 00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:03,239 Speaker 5: and he's telling him if there are any police ninchers here, 690 00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:05,759 Speaker 5: he says, I won't stop you from being beaten up. 691 00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:05,960 Speaker 4: You know. 692 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:09,120 Speaker 5: They're just tired of all this, you know. So I 693 00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:11,799 Speaker 5: think that Ernest things could have been much different for 694 00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:15,520 Speaker 5: him had this come out at that time. It's interesting 695 00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:17,719 Speaker 5: he did have a number of close calls. I do 696 00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:21,040 Speaker 5: think some people did find out in various ways they 697 00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:22,560 Speaker 5: knew this and that and whatnot. 698 00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:25,319 Speaker 4: You know, he was called to. 699 00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:28,319 Speaker 5: Testify before Congress in secret in nineteen seventy eight when 700 00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:33,480 Speaker 5: they're reinvestigating Martin Luther King's murder, and that was another 701 00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:35,840 Speaker 5: close call. That was probably the biggest closest. 702 00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:35,879 Speaker 4: Call of all. 703 00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:39,280 Speaker 5: And they when you read these reports, the public reports, 704 00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:41,480 Speaker 5: they never refer to Ernest by name, but they do 705 00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:44,160 Speaker 5: say that they asked him if he would be willing 706 00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:47,760 Speaker 5: to go public and he didn't want to do it. 707 00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:53,239 Speaker 5: Interesting too, That was around November of nineteen seventy eight. 708 00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:56,120 Speaker 5: In January of nineteen seventy nine, Ernest is indicted in 709 00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:58,920 Speaker 5: Memphis as part of this clemency for cash scandal. I mean, 710 00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:02,680 Speaker 5: he's into this huge corruption scandal up to his eyeballs 711 00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:05,759 Speaker 5: where the you know, the very corrupt regime, the Ray 712 00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:11,680 Speaker 5: Blanton administration. They're letting inmates out of prison for cash murders, robbers. 713 00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:13,960 Speaker 5: He'd paid ten twenty thousand, as much as eighty thousand 714 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:16,000 Speaker 5: dollars a year out on the street. Was it was, 715 00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:19,560 Speaker 5: you know, he's indicted in all of that. His defense 716 00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:23,880 Speaker 5: attorney I interviewed him. He didn't know that Ernest was 717 00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:25,279 Speaker 5: an informant, and he told me, you. 718 00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:27,200 Speaker 4: Know, wow, I could have really used that. I think 719 00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:27,560 Speaker 4: I could have. 720 00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:29,919 Speaker 5: Even though Ernest got a great deal there, he wound 721 00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:32,279 Speaker 5: up he turned state's evidence and wound up testifying in 722 00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:35,960 Speaker 5: two trials and they gave him one year for extortion 723 00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:37,560 Speaker 5: with six months suspended. 724 00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:39,480 Speaker 4: He got a hell of a deal, but he could 725 00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:40,239 Speaker 4: have got I don't know. 726 00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:43,279 Speaker 5: If I can say that, yeah, yeah, please, he got 727 00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:45,120 Speaker 5: a hell of a deal, but he could have gotten 728 00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:47,480 Speaker 5: off maybe completely. But you know, why didn't he tell 729 00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:50,240 Speaker 5: his own defense attorney? That's an interesting question. I think 730 00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:54,440 Speaker 5: he was still you know, the heat of that, you know, 731 00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:59,000 Speaker 5: so close to that being called to Congress, to Washington 732 00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:02,000 Speaker 5: and nineteen November nineteen seventy eight, this is just months later. 733 00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:04,359 Speaker 5: I think it just unnerved him to the point where 734 00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:05,880 Speaker 5: he didn't feel he could say anything. 735 00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:08,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, and in your book you say that his last 736 00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:11,160 Speaker 2: report to the FBI had only occurred a few years 737 00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:11,839 Speaker 2: prior to that. 738 00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:13,799 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it was seventy four, seventy five. 739 00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:16,960 Speaker 2: I mean, he's still pretty close to the people that 740 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:19,120 Speaker 2: he's just been informing on, and at this point he's 741 00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:23,080 Speaker 2: informing on the Black Panthers, on a lot of some 742 00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:24,200 Speaker 2: of the more militant groups. 743 00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:27,279 Speaker 3: And you think he was in danger of bodily harm, I. 744 00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:31,320 Speaker 5: Mean, quite possibly, although you know, I think Hoover and 745 00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:35,240 Speaker 5: the FBI really hyped that the threat of black power 746 00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:38,040 Speaker 5: and in in Memphis too, because I mean they did 747 00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:42,440 Speaker 5: have a small contingent of Black Panthers there, but they 748 00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:44,680 Speaker 5: were no threat to anybody's public safety. What they were 749 00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:49,440 Speaker 5: doing was they were they tried to start a breakfast 750 00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:52,319 Speaker 5: program for poor children, and they were trying to put 751 00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:56,839 Speaker 5: awareness on sickle cell anemia. At one point in the 752 00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:59,759 Speaker 5: early seventies, by one of the FBI reports, there are 753 00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:03,200 Speaker 5: like seven people in this black panther, yeah unit, and 754 00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:06,120 Speaker 5: one of them's earnest. They list the names, and one 755 00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:08,640 Speaker 5: of them's Earnest, and the other is an undercover cop 756 00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:12,239 Speaker 5: for the Memphis Police Department. So and you know, it's 757 00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:15,560 Speaker 5: interesting too there, Okay, they weren't. Their reputation was much 758 00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:17,720 Speaker 5: more threatening than what they actually were. 759 00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:19,520 Speaker 4: But they took. 760 00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:23,080 Speaker 5: This thing very seriously. And it's interesting too that Ernest 761 00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:26,239 Speaker 5: at one point takes pictures at the instruction of the 762 00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:29,239 Speaker 5: FBI of the outside of their headquarters, their home. It's 763 00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:31,920 Speaker 5: a two frame house. This one picture shot way across 764 00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:36,040 Speaker 5: and kind of through branches, and it's kind of, you know, sick, 765 00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:38,840 Speaker 5: secretive and mysterious looking. And then he gets a picture 766 00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:41,000 Speaker 5: of the front door and goes around and gets a 767 00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:43,120 Speaker 5: picture of the back door, and you know, it's quite 768 00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:45,960 Speaker 5: clearly they're trying to identify the points of ingress and 769 00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:48,719 Speaker 5: egress out of this place in the contingency that they 770 00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:50,839 Speaker 5: might have to raid this place. And they also get 771 00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:53,839 Speaker 5: information from Earnest about what weapons are inside. And so 772 00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:56,280 Speaker 5: what he tells him is there's a twenty two pistol 773 00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:58,000 Speaker 5: next to the bed, and there's a shotgun. You know, 774 00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:00,640 Speaker 5: kind of just the kind of the weapons that an 775 00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:03,799 Speaker 5: average Memphion or you know, Southerner would have, you know, like. 776 00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:06,879 Speaker 2: But like who's sleeping in which rooms? Which room has 777 00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:10,000 Speaker 2: the gun? Like it's exactly what you would need to 778 00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:11,239 Speaker 2: enter that home. 779 00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:13,719 Speaker 5: Absolutely, And it's interesting too, you know, that could have 780 00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:16,240 Speaker 5: been a huge fiasco because if you know the story 781 00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:19,680 Speaker 5: of Fred Hampton, remember the Black Panther party in Chicago, 782 00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:22,200 Speaker 5: who a lot of people believe was a police murder 783 00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:25,000 Speaker 5: of him. You know, they had a bureau informant sketch 784 00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:28,160 Speaker 5: out the layout of that apartment and the police come 785 00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:29,480 Speaker 5: in the middle of the night and shoot like the 786 00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:32,279 Speaker 5: scores around through there and kill them. I mean, I mean, 787 00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:34,439 Speaker 5: who knows, maybe something like that could have happened here. 788 00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:36,600 Speaker 5: But it's kind of a very similar situation. 789 00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:42,800 Speaker 1: Yes, So let's let's look at some of the aftermath 790 00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:47,640 Speaker 1: with with this, with this report. When you when you 791 00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:52,240 Speaker 1: release the initial story, when the story first breaks, How 792 00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:57,319 Speaker 1: did people react both in the Memphis community where Withers is. 793 00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:01,120 Speaker 1: I believe, as you established, he has street named after him. 794 00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:03,640 Speaker 1: He's got a blue note, he's got he's got. 795 00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:05,840 Speaker 5: A Blues note on Beale Street, which is the equivalent 796 00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:08,319 Speaker 5: of the Hollywood Star. He's got a building named after him. 797 00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:11,520 Speaker 5: This is twenty ten. He's got a street named after him. 798 00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:14,800 Speaker 5: Since then, he's got a museum, and he's got a 799 00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:16,319 Speaker 5: historical marker outside his home. 800 00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:23,799 Speaker 1: And what was the reaction both in today's activist community 801 00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:27,920 Speaker 1: with withers surviving relatives and with Memphis at large. 802 00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:31,080 Speaker 5: Well, I mean there was a lot of disbelief ernest 803 00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:34,920 Speaker 5: family and a circle of followers. Initially it was said that, 804 00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:38,800 Speaker 5: you know, I made this up. That position has morphed 805 00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:40,879 Speaker 5: over time as more information has come out. At one 806 00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:43,560 Speaker 5: time it was said that, you know, the FBI might 807 00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:46,239 Speaker 5: have called him an informant, but all he did was 808 00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:48,560 Speaker 5: sell pictures to the FBI, just like he did a 809 00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:49,760 Speaker 5: lot of clients. 810 00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:52,400 Speaker 1: Which is not in and of itself illegal. 811 00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:54,319 Speaker 5: No it's not, and it is something that he did. 812 00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:55,879 Speaker 5: The thing is that he did a lot more than 813 00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:57,759 Speaker 5: just that. I mean, he was given him a lot 814 00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:00,640 Speaker 5: of oral intel and really infiltrating a lot of these groups. 815 00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:03,880 Speaker 5: But yeah, I mean there was a whole spectrum of reaction. 816 00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:09,240 Speaker 5: Dick Gregory, the famous comedian activist you know, labeled Ernest 817 00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:11,200 Speaker 5: judas that's what he called them. He said he betrayed 818 00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:14,920 Speaker 5: the movement. That was a rather harsh critique, judged the 819 00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:18,800 Speaker 5: Army Bailey, another longtime civil rights activists he's also passed on, 820 00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:21,640 Speaker 5: did feel that Ernest betrayed the movement. But then you 821 00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:24,440 Speaker 5: had people like Andrew Young, who you know, said that 822 00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:27,279 Speaker 5: you know, look, we were a transparent movement. You know, 823 00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:29,200 Speaker 5: he really couldn't hurt us in any way. I don't 824 00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:30,759 Speaker 5: see what the harm is of that. I don't think 825 00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:34,480 Speaker 5: doctor King would have, you know, found anything wrong with that. 826 00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:37,759 Speaker 3: But you can't deny that he ruined some people's lives. 827 00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:39,719 Speaker 5: Well that's the thing that he got that. That's the 828 00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:42,400 Speaker 5: thing is that the individual abuses. And that's why, you know, 829 00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:44,480 Speaker 5: when Congress, you know, when the Church Committee in the 830 00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:47,279 Speaker 5: nineteen seventies looked at a lot of these operations, I 831 00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:50,719 Speaker 5: mean they found just rife with abuse. I mean, the 832 00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:53,600 Speaker 5: thing is is that they were collecting data on people 833 00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:56,759 Speaker 5: who weren't doing anything illegal. They were standing up, you know, 834 00:41:56,840 --> 00:41:59,759 Speaker 5: marching in the street, exercising First Amendment rights, standing up 835 00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:03,120 Speaker 5: again the Vietnam War, you know, standing up against Jim Crow. 836 00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:05,759 Speaker 5: And but they were treated as enemies and all this 837 00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:08,440 Speaker 5: personal data. You know, one of the things that Ernest 838 00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:12,600 Speaker 5: did is he'd give them auto tag numbers, he'd give 839 00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:16,560 Speaker 5: them phone numbers, and the FBI would use those to 840 00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:19,799 Speaker 5: do warrantless searches of targets, you know, phone records they'd 841 00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:21,600 Speaker 5: go through. They'd have a source at the phone department 842 00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:25,200 Speaker 5: and they'd go and you know, get them find out 843 00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:27,040 Speaker 5: who they're toll charges or who they're talking to, because 844 00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:28,600 Speaker 5: they want to figure out who their associates were. 845 00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:30,040 Speaker 4: On and on. 846 00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:32,360 Speaker 5: And there were a number of incidents like that that 847 00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:36,080 Speaker 5: would the FBI very strongly in Memphis in the late 848 00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:39,760 Speaker 5: sixties tried to undercut the Black Power movement. And it's 849 00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:42,759 Speaker 5: very similar and the way they went about it to 850 00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:46,319 Speaker 5: the whole McCarthyism era of the fifties in that they 851 00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:51,440 Speaker 5: went after sympathizers, supporters, associates in addition to the actual 852 00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:54,200 Speaker 5: activists and so and again people got hurt in that 853 00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:56,080 Speaker 5: there was there was there's a man who actually is 854 00:42:56,080 --> 00:43:00,359 Speaker 5: going to be speaking with me tonight. Bobby Doctor, who 855 00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:04,160 Speaker 5: was a longtime activist in the movement, who by the 856 00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:07,040 Speaker 5: late sixties was working for the US Civil Rights Commission 857 00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:09,719 Speaker 5: as a field representative in Memphis. He went on to 858 00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:12,600 Speaker 5: become the Southeast Regional director here in Atlanta, where he 859 00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:14,719 Speaker 5: worked for the organization for more than forty years, but 860 00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:17,759 Speaker 5: early on he nearly lost his job because of these 861 00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:21,319 Speaker 5: FBI investigations. And Withers played a role in that. I mean, 862 00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:24,520 Speaker 5: he was deemed somebody, you know, Withers and other informers 863 00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:27,960 Speaker 5: kick backed information that hey, look this guy, he's he's 864 00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:30,880 Speaker 5: at some Black Power oriented meetings. He's he's at social 865 00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:33,920 Speaker 5: gatherings with these with these activists. And at one point 866 00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:37,280 Speaker 5: Ernest even passed on a picture. He tells his handler, 867 00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:40,120 Speaker 5: Bill Lawrence, you know, I was covering this march and 868 00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:43,279 Speaker 5: Bobby Doctor was there, and he was holding hands with 869 00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:46,680 Speaker 5: this woman, you know, and Bobby's married and the women's married, 870 00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:48,600 Speaker 5: but they ain't married to each other, and so in Lawrence, 871 00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:50,320 Speaker 5: so I got to have the picture. He got the picture, 872 00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:52,040 Speaker 5: and you know, of course he puts it all in 873 00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:55,759 Speaker 5: the report, and so you know they're trying to undercut him. 874 00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:58,960 Speaker 5: He had a colleague there, Rosetta Miller, same kind of thing. 875 00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:01,960 Speaker 5: Withers gives some pictures, passes on rumors about her, and 876 00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:05,239 Speaker 5: tells them that she's the kind who will give aid 877 00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:08,879 Speaker 5: and comfort. Is how Laurence paraphrases Withers will give aid 878 00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:11,319 Speaker 5: and comfort to the Black Powa groups. So that's the 879 00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:14,040 Speaker 5: thing about this that I think Andrew Young in a 880 00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:16,680 Speaker 5: bless his heart didn't consider when he thinks, you know 881 00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:19,680 Speaker 5: that these were so innocent and what would it matter 882 00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:22,640 Speaker 5: to a transparent movement. It matters because they were going 883 00:44:22,719 --> 00:44:25,799 Speaker 5: after certain individuals and they were trying to hurt them. 884 00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:26,640 Speaker 4: Mark. 885 00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:29,839 Speaker 1: It's one of our great regrets that we don't have 886 00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:34,640 Speaker 1: more time today for this interview, but we do want 887 00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:39,280 Speaker 1: to close on a note that we know our listeners 888 00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:45,080 Speaker 1: are going to be asking. You mentioned the surveillance techniques 889 00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:49,520 Speaker 1: of the sixties and into the seventies in the book. 890 00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:55,240 Speaker 1: How would you say government surveillance is different or similar today, because, 891 00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:59,800 Speaker 1: as many of our listeners know, Cohen Telpro is over. 892 00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:01,359 Speaker 2: Yeah for sure, yep. 893 00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:04,239 Speaker 5: Well, you know the hearings out of the seventies, they 894 00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:05,840 Speaker 5: you know, they talked about a lot of reform, and 895 00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:08,200 Speaker 5: the FBI, you know, when all this stuff came out, 896 00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:12,520 Speaker 5: reeled in these investigations. They had like something like at 897 00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:16,239 Speaker 5: one point, you know, fifty thousand different domestic intelligence operations 898 00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:20,080 Speaker 5: going on of American citizens and you know, in the 899 00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:22,879 Speaker 5: mid to early seventies and by seventy seven they're down 900 00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:26,960 Speaker 5: to virtually zero. So they really tried to reform the program, 901 00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:30,080 Speaker 5: you know, in the years that have passed since, you know, 902 00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:34,440 Speaker 5: they tried to focus more on actual crimes, terrorism, whatnot. 903 00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:36,080 Speaker 5: You know, you have, you get information, you do a 904 00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:38,879 Speaker 5: preliminary investigation, and then if that, you know, if there's 905 00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:42,560 Speaker 5: more probable cause, you launch a more full field investigation. 906 00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:44,080 Speaker 5: You know, there are a lot of people to this 907 00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:47,400 Speaker 5: day who believe, you know, like I think you've mentioned, 908 00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:51,400 Speaker 5: who don't really believe that they were also in you know, reformed. 909 00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:57,200 Speaker 5: In Memphis recently, there was a lawsuit filed on behalf 910 00:45:57,239 --> 00:46:00,000 Speaker 5: of a various Black Lives Matter activists. 911 00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:01,399 Speaker 4: They are getting. 912 00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:05,920 Speaker 5: Indications that the same sort of thing is going on today. 913 00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:08,960 Speaker 5: And it's interesting in Memphis because you know, the Bill 914 00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:11,640 Speaker 5: Lawrence helped set up the Memphis Police Department's Red Squad 915 00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:15,200 Speaker 5: there the Domestic Intelligence Unit. They worked very closely together, 916 00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:19,600 Speaker 5: and in the mid seventies, the ACLU filed a suit. 917 00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:21,720 Speaker 5: They found out that they were gathering all this political 918 00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:25,880 Speaker 5: intelligence and got a landmark decision, a consent decree that forever, 919 00:46:26,239 --> 00:46:29,640 Speaker 5: you know, forbids the Memphis Police Department from conducting illegal 920 00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:32,880 Speaker 5: political surveillance. Some people think it's still going on, and 921 00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:35,400 Speaker 5: it's kind of interesting that I wrote a story about, 922 00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:38,720 Speaker 5: you know, shortly after I did the first Ernest Withers 923 00:46:38,719 --> 00:46:42,200 Speaker 5: stories about that consent degree, and I asked the police 924 00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:47,160 Speaker 5: department for their manuals and their procedure manual, and in 925 00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:49,160 Speaker 5: it there was no mention of this consent decree, and 926 00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:51,000 Speaker 5: so then they didn't even know what I was talking about. 927 00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:53,080 Speaker 5: They very quickly amended that and put it in there. 928 00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:56,000 Speaker 5: You know, It's just but you know, there's a lot 929 00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:58,000 Speaker 5: of people who think this sort of thing is going 930 00:46:58,040 --> 00:46:59,880 Speaker 5: on today, and this is what this suit in Memphis 931 00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:04,040 Speaker 5: last year was filed about. There were several individuals who 932 00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:07,120 Speaker 5: were put on a blacklist where they said, like several 933 00:47:07,120 --> 00:47:10,359 Speaker 5: of them were Black Lives Matters activists and others who 934 00:47:10,440 --> 00:47:15,600 Speaker 5: are politically active in in town there and the list said, 935 00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:17,279 Speaker 5: if these individuals show up to city Hall, they're going 936 00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:18,960 Speaker 5: to need an escort. Well, how do you know who 937 00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:22,440 Speaker 5: these guys are unless you've done some addresses and whatnot 938 00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:24,480 Speaker 5: and you know what they've been doing. This is the 939 00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:26,600 Speaker 5: kind of thing that people think, you know, there's these 940 00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:29,759 Speaker 5: secret operations to some degree are still going on. 941 00:47:30,239 --> 00:47:30,319 Speaker 4: It. 942 00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:32,160 Speaker 3: Sure, it feels like full circle to me in terms 943 00:47:32,160 --> 00:47:34,480 Speaker 3: of the political climate that we're in right now compared 944 00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:37,080 Speaker 3: to you know, the period described in your book. 945 00:47:37,480 --> 00:47:40,359 Speaker 5: Well, you know, the sixties was a period of high 946 00:47:40,440 --> 00:47:44,800 Speaker 5: paranoia and polarization, and I mean, yeah, I mean we 947 00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:46,840 Speaker 5: have a lot of that here today too. And you know, 948 00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:51,840 Speaker 5: it's been said that it was so easy for certain informants, 949 00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:54,480 Speaker 5: perhaps in earnest too, you know, to do what they did, 950 00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:56,800 Speaker 5: for the government to do, to go after these individuals 951 00:47:56,880 --> 00:47:59,480 Speaker 5: so strongly, because there was very much this we versus 952 00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:02,840 Speaker 5: they they mentality. You know that they're the bad guys, 953 00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:05,719 Speaker 5: they're evil, you know, they're they're communists controlled, which is 954 00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:07,000 Speaker 5: a big thing you've seen in a lot of these 955 00:48:07,080 --> 00:48:09,360 Speaker 5: FBI reports, particularly when it comes to the war. 956 00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:10,440 Speaker 4: So yeah, I mean, I think. 957 00:48:10,440 --> 00:48:13,680 Speaker 5: Periods like this, you know, they're right for abuse and 958 00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:15,560 Speaker 5: this is why I think there's this need to be 959 00:48:15,640 --> 00:48:17,120 Speaker 5: ever vigilant on these matters. 960 00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:20,600 Speaker 2: Well, guys, I'm afraid we're not going to be able 961 00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:23,680 Speaker 2: to hit everything in this book. But the good thing 962 00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:26,120 Speaker 2: is all you have to do is pick it up 963 00:48:28,760 --> 00:48:31,880 Speaker 2: recommend doing so. Honestly, the three of us have read 964 00:48:31,960 --> 00:48:35,080 Speaker 2: A Spy in Canaan by Mark Periskia and honestly would 965 00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:37,720 Speaker 2: highly recommend it because the events in the book actually 966 00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:41,640 Speaker 2: paint such a vivid story of surveillance by the FBI 967 00:48:42,239 --> 00:48:45,200 Speaker 2: on people who are just trying to express themselves with 968 00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:46,880 Speaker 2: our constitutional rights. 969 00:48:47,160 --> 00:48:51,000 Speaker 3: I think it's an incredibly timely book, you know, with 970 00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:52,760 Speaker 3: what's going on right now. I think it's a really 971 00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:55,000 Speaker 3: fascinating read and can't recommend it highly enough. 972 00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:58,840 Speaker 1: Yes, friends and neighbors, the book is A Spy in Canaan. Mark. 973 00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:03,200 Speaker 1: Thank you again so very much for coming on our show, 974 00:49:03,239 --> 00:49:07,759 Speaker 1: and we hope, if possible, we could interview you in 975 00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:09,920 Speaker 1: the future as things develop. 976 00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:12,279 Speaker 4: I'd love to do it. That's all for us. 977 00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:15,360 Speaker 2: And that's the end of this classic episode. If you 978 00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:19,480 Speaker 2: have any thoughts or questions about this episode, you can 979 00:49:19,560 --> 00:49:22,120 Speaker 2: get into contact with us in a number of different ways. 980 00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:23,919 Speaker 2: One of The best is to give us a call. 981 00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:28,799 Speaker 2: Our number is one eight three three STDWYTK. If you 982 00:49:28,800 --> 00:49:30,640 Speaker 2: don't want to do that, you can send us a 983 00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:31,840 Speaker 2: good old fashioned email. 984 00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:36,239 Speaker 1: We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com. 985 00:49:36,400 --> 00:49:38,440 Speaker 2: Stuff they don't want you to know is a production 986 00:49:38,560 --> 00:49:43,120 Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 987 00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:46,040 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.