WEBVTT - 2021 Ig Nobel Prize Grab Bag, Part 2 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:05.400 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of My 0:00:05.480 --> 0:00:14.840 Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. 0:00:15.000 --> 0:00:17.759 My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and 0:00:17.840 --> 0:00:20.440 we're back with part two of this year's talk about 0:00:20.560 --> 0:00:23.520 the ig Nobel Prize winners. If you haven't heard part one, 0:00:23.960 --> 0:00:25.800 you can go back and check that one out. First, 0:00:26.160 --> 0:00:29.080 long story short, we're talking about the ig Nobel Prizes 0:00:29.120 --> 0:00:31.600 again this year. We're not going to cover every prize, 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:33.600 but just pick out a few of the highlights that 0:00:33.640 --> 0:00:36.239 we wanted to discuss. And Rob I think you're going 0:00:36.280 --> 0:00:38.919 to kick us off today with the Biology Prize if 0:00:38.920 --> 0:00:42.400 I'm not wrong, Yes, this is the Biology Prize. It 0:00:42.440 --> 0:00:46.640 went to Suzanne Shots Robert Ecklund and used fond of 0:00:46.720 --> 0:00:54.840 aga for analyzing variations in purring, chirping, chattering, trilling, tweeting, murmuring, 0:00:55.120 --> 0:00:59.000 me owing, moaning, squeaking, hissing, yowling, howling, growling, and other 0:00:59.080 --> 0:01:04.759 modes of cat human communication. Those are all cat human communication. Yeah, yeah, 0:01:04.760 --> 0:01:08.039 so this is so one the couple of questions I 0:01:08.040 --> 0:01:11.440 tend to ask myself about any Ignoble prize winning study 0:01:11.600 --> 0:01:14.080 or paper right up, is first of all, why is 0:01:14.120 --> 0:01:17.240 it funny? And then then secondly, why is it important? 0:01:17.240 --> 0:01:20.039 Why does it matter? And of course it's pretty obvious 0:01:20.040 --> 0:01:22.840 why this one. It's funny. It's cats. Anything cats do 0:01:22.959 --> 0:01:26.399 has the potential to be hilarious because they are. They 0:01:26.400 --> 0:01:30.119 are amusing, They are are strange fur babies, are are 0:01:30.240 --> 0:01:33.120 the weird desert goblins that live in so many of 0:01:33.120 --> 0:01:36.080 our houses or haunt our yards. I think in many ways, 0:01:36.120 --> 0:01:39.080 cats are funny, almost exactly to the extent that they 0:01:39.120 --> 0:01:43.839 appear to take themselves very seriously. Yeah, well so they 0:01:43.880 --> 0:01:46.919 that's true. But they're also some very silly looking cats. 0:01:47.000 --> 0:01:49.520 But yeah, they they do often have this kind of 0:01:49.560 --> 0:01:52.960 serious demeanor and they it's easy too for us to 0:01:53.040 --> 0:01:56.040 apply human motivations to their behavior and thinking, oh, well, 0:01:56.040 --> 0:01:59.200 they're they're covering for a mistake here, they're they're they're 0:01:59.240 --> 0:02:03.320 trying to, uh, you know, uphold their dignity. Uh. There's 0:02:03.320 --> 0:02:05.520 a lot we can read into the behaviors of cats, 0:02:06.320 --> 0:02:09.520 but the the actual scenario with cat, I mean, any 0:02:09.639 --> 0:02:14.960 human domestication of another animal species is inherently interesting. That 0:02:15.000 --> 0:02:18.600 the cat model may be one of the most interesting 0:02:18.639 --> 0:02:21.600 of all because it is this kind of at times 0:02:21.760 --> 0:02:26.920 arguably a self domestication. It's this uh this interesting um 0:02:26.960 --> 0:02:30.360 you know, um balance that is struck between what the 0:02:30.400 --> 0:02:33.880 cat wants and what the human wants. Um. And you 0:02:33.880 --> 0:02:36.919 know so many of us live that every day, that 0:02:36.919 --> 0:02:40.680 that uneasy truce with the feline kind. You're always wondering 0:02:40.720 --> 0:02:43.480 if your cat really respects you. This is less a 0:02:43.480 --> 0:02:46.160 problem for dog owners. Oh I don't know. I mean 0:02:46.200 --> 0:02:48.519 I I never wonder and I know my cat doesn't 0:02:48.720 --> 0:02:52.480 respect me. It's but but well we'll get into that. 0:02:52.560 --> 0:02:55.880 So this this uh, this study or actually it's really 0:02:56.240 --> 0:02:58.960 a series of studies. Um. You know, they deal with 0:02:59.000 --> 0:03:01.640 the vocalization of cats. And uh, if if you're not 0:03:01.639 --> 0:03:03.320 that familiar with cats, if you're not around the much, 0:03:03.960 --> 0:03:05.959 you might be surprised by this because cats are often 0:03:06.000 --> 0:03:09.840 pretty quiet. Um, they can be very quiet, very stealthy. 0:03:09.919 --> 0:03:13.200 And while the meal is the most famous cat noise 0:03:13.680 --> 0:03:16.000 and one that is sometimes treated it as kind of 0:03:16.120 --> 0:03:20.000 kind of a monolithic vocalization, there's actually quite a diversity 0:03:20.080 --> 0:03:22.280 to the sounds you're liable to hear come out of 0:03:22.280 --> 0:03:27.239 a cat if you listen enough. So everyone everyone's cat 0:03:27.280 --> 0:03:30.000 is different. I mean cats have have can have amazingly 0:03:31.400 --> 0:03:35.920 different personalities but concerning my own current cat, Mochi, here 0:03:35.920 --> 0:03:39.040 are some of her most common utterances, so that I 0:03:39.120 --> 0:03:42.960 might mention these before getting into some of the researchers findings. 0:03:43.280 --> 0:03:46.640 So first of all, uh, there's there is of course purring. Uh. 0:03:46.760 --> 0:03:49.360 Mochi will do this while seated close to or on 0:03:49.400 --> 0:03:53.320 a human uh, you know, whilst relaxing. There's also the 0:03:53.440 --> 0:03:57.480 hiss she will generally she'll hiss in other situations, like 0:03:57.520 --> 0:04:00.600 if she's surprised or something, but uh, straight antually enough, 0:04:00.720 --> 0:04:04.400 she most commonly hisses after she has just randomly attacked 0:04:04.400 --> 0:04:08.360 my foot. She'll be near my foot, she will like 0:04:08.520 --> 0:04:12.240 play by my toe, and then she will recoil and 0:04:12.320 --> 0:04:14.800 hiss at me like I did something. One of my 0:04:14.840 --> 0:04:18.480 most vivid memories of a cat hissing is when I 0:04:18.520 --> 0:04:20.440 was in college, a friend of mine called me to 0:04:20.720 --> 0:04:24.320 come over and help deal with an incredibly large spider 0:04:24.440 --> 0:04:28.040 discovered in the apartment, and the cat in the apartment 0:04:28.080 --> 0:04:31.120 there was just was just hissing at it, just violently 0:04:31.200 --> 0:04:35.960 hissing at a at a huge black spider. Interesting again, 0:04:36.279 --> 0:04:38.720 cats are so so different than they have such such 0:04:38.760 --> 0:04:41.719 an interesting personalities. I don't think I've ever heard my 0:04:41.839 --> 0:04:45.720 cat hiss at a non human entity, but then again, 0:04:45.760 --> 0:04:47.800 she's she's an indoor cat and it's kind of cut 0:04:47.800 --> 0:04:51.880 off from most non human entities. My cat Mochi will 0:04:51.880 --> 0:04:54.240 also do something that we affectionately refer to as the 0:04:54.240 --> 0:04:58.880 midnight baby parade, sometimes not affectionately, depending on the circumstances. 0:04:58.880 --> 0:05:00.680 But this is when she carries a toy or small 0:05:00.680 --> 0:05:03.800 stuffed animal around the house, generally after we've all gone 0:05:03.800 --> 0:05:07.000 to bed, and as a kind of repetitive, mournful howling 0:05:07.120 --> 0:05:11.680 about it about you, like something about the toy has 0:05:11.720 --> 0:05:16.080 made her sad. Now, based on some of the readings 0:05:16.080 --> 0:05:20.280 I'll get into, um, I believe it is a communication 0:05:20.880 --> 0:05:24.360 aimed at us, at us humans, uh, saying hey, I 0:05:24.440 --> 0:05:27.120 have I have caught you something I have provided, I 0:05:27.200 --> 0:05:29.520 have a treat for you, or and or I'm teaching 0:05:29.520 --> 0:05:32.560 you how to hunt something to that effect. So um, 0:05:32.600 --> 0:05:35.600 so it's not actually mournful. That's just our read of it. 0:05:35.600 --> 0:05:39.159 It sounds kind of weird and pathetic, but see it is, 0:05:39.600 --> 0:05:44.080 but it is a vocal communication of sorts. Finally, Mochi 0:05:44.160 --> 0:05:46.320 will use what I think of as the bossy mew, 0:05:46.400 --> 0:05:49.920 a kind of sharp, truncated meal that feels bossy and 0:05:50.120 --> 0:05:52.320 is often administered when she is ready to be fed 0:05:52.440 --> 0:05:55.320 and we're being too slow about it. Oh, from Charlie 0:05:55.360 --> 0:05:58.680 in that same situation, we get the huffs where he 0:05:58.720 --> 0:06:04.160 doesn't fully bark, but it's them. Yeah, yeah, I mean, 0:06:04.200 --> 0:06:07.760 it's it's It's really remarkable when you when you think 0:06:07.760 --> 0:06:10.440 about it, you know, all these these various communications that 0:06:10.440 --> 0:06:13.160 are going on between us and these these non human 0:06:13.400 --> 0:06:16.120 beings in our homes. Now, there are probably some other 0:06:16.120 --> 0:06:18.360 sounds from Mochi that I'm forgetting, and there's still others 0:06:18.360 --> 0:06:21.200 that our old cat would make, such as the chirping 0:06:21.240 --> 0:06:24.000 at birds, which I'll definitely get into. But those are 0:06:24.000 --> 0:06:26.720 the main ones that are in my life that I 0:06:26.800 --> 0:06:30.640 carried into reading about this research. And and again, one 0:06:30.680 --> 0:06:32.320 of the crazy things about all this is that we 0:06:32.400 --> 0:06:35.480 can we can anthropomorphize our cats all day, but we're 0:06:35.520 --> 0:06:38.840 left with with very real questions regarding what these sounds 0:06:38.920 --> 0:06:41.760 are and what purpose they serve. And on top of that, 0:06:41.800 --> 0:06:45.080 we're looking at it within the context of domesticated cohabitation 0:06:45.160 --> 0:06:48.200 with human beings. Right, so are these sounds that are 0:06:48.760 --> 0:06:52.560 naturally part of the part of the cat's behavioral repertoire 0:06:52.720 --> 0:06:56.800 in their ancestral environment, or do they somehow emerge from 0:06:56.839 --> 0:07:00.640 being domesticated and being partnered with humans. Yeah, so it 0:07:00.640 --> 0:07:04.760 gets it gets very complicated. So um, the lead author 0:07:04.880 --> 0:07:08.279 on I think all what five studies that were referenced 0:07:08.520 --> 0:07:12.000 in the the Ignoble Prize being awarded here, the lead 0:07:12.040 --> 0:07:15.440 author and all of them was Susan Shots. And if 0:07:15.480 --> 0:07:19.120 you're interested in Shots's work, she actually has a book 0:07:19.200 --> 0:07:23.000 aimed at general readers and cat owners titled The Secret 0:07:23.080 --> 0:07:26.600 Language of Cats. Um, and I actually picked this up 0:07:26.640 --> 0:07:29.880 and kind of focused on this more than the individual studies, uh. 0:07:29.880 --> 0:07:33.760 In it, she details seventeen different cats sounds, and I'm 0:07:33.760 --> 0:07:35.000 not going to go through all of them, but it's 0:07:35.040 --> 0:07:39.520 fascinating how these include sounds that are targeted at seemingly 0:07:39.560 --> 0:07:43.120 targeted at prey, but also targeted at other cats and 0:07:43.240 --> 0:07:47.440 targeted at humans. Which ones are we closer to the 0:07:47.720 --> 0:07:50.000 when they're talking to humans. Is it more like their 0:07:50.040 --> 0:07:53.239 interactions with prey or more like other cats? It seems 0:07:53.240 --> 0:07:55.040 to be like other cats. And I've I've read other 0:07:55.040 --> 0:07:58.320 research that that that summarizes it, you know, in the 0:07:58.360 --> 0:08:01.320 same way saying like, well, your cat basically thinks of 0:08:01.360 --> 0:08:04.120 you as a giant cat, or your cat basically thinks 0:08:04.120 --> 0:08:08.040 of you as a giant kitten, that sort of thing. So, 0:08:08.680 --> 0:08:10.800 just rolling through some of the sounds here and what 0:08:10.840 --> 0:08:14.200 shots have to say about them. For instance, purring, uh 0:08:14.400 --> 0:08:18.720 is complex because while it is largely associated with with 0:08:18.800 --> 0:08:21.520 the cat feeling content, you can also mean that the 0:08:21.520 --> 0:08:24.160 cat is hungry, that it is pain, that the cat 0:08:24.200 --> 0:08:27.560 is anxious, or that the cat is giving birth or dying. 0:08:27.880 --> 0:08:30.600 Oh wow, well that's a range. Yeah. So she writes 0:08:30.640 --> 0:08:34.680 that purring probably would translate in human language, and she 0:08:34.840 --> 0:08:36.319 she does a lot of this, like like, if you 0:08:36.360 --> 0:08:38.520 were to translate this into human language, what is the 0:08:38.559 --> 0:08:41.800 cat saying? It probably means something like I am no threat, 0:08:42.080 --> 0:08:45.640 or please leave everything as it is, or keep doing 0:08:46.160 --> 0:08:48.840 Oh I can see that. Okay, So whether the cat 0:08:49.040 --> 0:08:51.600 is happy with what's going on right now and doesn't 0:08:51.640 --> 0:08:54.400 want to be disturbed, or is in a vulnerable state 0:08:54.440 --> 0:08:56.719 of some kind and doesn't want to be disturbed, it's 0:08:56.720 --> 0:09:00.000 basically just kind of like, hey, things are fine. Yeah. 0:09:00.280 --> 0:09:02.760 Now I've heard that tidbit about the dying before, and 0:09:02.760 --> 0:09:04.640 I was was having to think back where i'd heard it, 0:09:05.240 --> 0:09:07.480 and I think I actually heard about it the first 0:09:07.520 --> 0:09:11.600 time in a poem titled Purring by Coleman Barks, who 0:09:11.760 --> 0:09:14.559 uh incidentally, I think we've brought up on the podcast before, 0:09:14.600 --> 0:09:18.200 because in addition to being a poet of his own work, 0:09:18.600 --> 0:09:23.000 he is also the the Roomy interpreter, who has sometimes 0:09:23.000 --> 0:09:25.480 criticized for not being an actual translator in the true 0:09:25.480 --> 0:09:28.360 sense of the word. He neither reads nor writes Persian, 0:09:28.400 --> 0:09:32.640 but rather sort of rephrases the poems of roomi um 0:09:32.679 --> 0:09:37.200 as English language poems. But anyway, the poem in question 0:09:37.280 --> 0:09:39.080 is is rather good and has nothing to do with 0:09:39.120 --> 0:09:42.480 the poetry of of of Roomy or Persia. It's all 0:09:42.480 --> 0:09:45.880 about cat purring. And this is the key part. Quote 0:09:46.200 --> 0:09:49.360 here is something I have never heard. A feline purrs 0:09:49.440 --> 0:09:53.560 and two conditions when deeply content and when mortally wounded 0:09:53.720 --> 0:09:58.199 to calm themselves reading for the death opening. Oh that's 0:09:58.240 --> 0:10:00.760 kind of chilling. Yeah. I've aways found this part of 0:10:00.760 --> 0:10:03.160 the poem very spot on regarding cats and death, because 0:10:03.200 --> 0:10:06.400 I feel like Mochi if she gets too cold or 0:10:06.440 --> 0:10:08.440 if she has some sort of health flare up, she 0:10:08.520 --> 0:10:11.599 basically says to us, I must now settle down and 0:10:11.640 --> 0:10:15.480 await the death opening, and we're usually like, no, there's 0:10:15.480 --> 0:10:17.960 no there's no reason to just accept death. You should 0:10:17.960 --> 0:10:20.760 maybe you should drink some water instead, You're probably dehydrated. 0:10:20.760 --> 0:10:24.600 And she's like, no, I would prefer death. Oh yeah yeah. 0:10:24.679 --> 0:10:28.240 So is is that in general that cats are likely 0:10:28.280 --> 0:10:30.960 to have kind of strange relationships with water or is 0:10:31.000 --> 0:10:35.000 that more specifically your cat? I mean, I've heard that. 0:10:35.240 --> 0:10:37.360 You know, if you if you look back to where 0:10:37.400 --> 0:10:39.200 cats come to us from, that you know they have 0:10:39.320 --> 0:10:42.679 ties to desert environments where they wouldn't have access to 0:10:42.679 --> 0:10:45.360 a lot of water. But you spend any amount of 0:10:45.360 --> 0:10:47.679 time on the internet and you see that the cats 0:10:47.679 --> 0:10:49.360 are kind of all over the place. There are cats 0:10:49.400 --> 0:10:53.360 that habitually drink water from faucets and toilets, you know, 0:10:53.800 --> 0:10:57.040 there are cats that that actually use their fountains. Uh. 0:10:57.080 --> 0:10:59.240 And there then their households like ours, where I feel 0:10:59.280 --> 0:11:02.600 like we have we put out various fountains and and 0:11:02.720 --> 0:11:05.720 bowls of water as kind of a spiritual offering, so 0:11:05.760 --> 0:11:09.160 that the idea of water is present. So in the end, 0:11:09.600 --> 0:11:12.000 she gets I think all of her moisture through her 0:11:12.040 --> 0:11:17.080 wet food, and otherwise I think she would just dry up. Strange, Now, 0:11:17.080 --> 0:11:19.559 when it comes to the meals. Shots points out that 0:11:20.320 --> 0:11:23.040 meals are very often about getting the attention of humans, 0:11:23.360 --> 0:11:26.240 and there are really a whole suite of mews. Uh. 0:11:26.440 --> 0:11:29.280 For instance, there's the mew, which is a very high 0:11:29.280 --> 0:11:33.760 pitched meal probably generally something that translates as a call 0:11:33.840 --> 0:11:37.680 to attention or help. And then outside of cat human relations, 0:11:37.720 --> 0:11:40.080 this is also the sound a kitten makes to its mother. 0:11:40.640 --> 0:11:43.160 So this is a situation where we're we're kind of 0:11:43.160 --> 0:11:45.840 a giant cat mother to our cats, at least in 0:11:45.880 --> 0:11:48.480 some circumstances. Oh, you can almost look at that as 0:11:48.520 --> 0:11:50.600 a kind of counterpoint to the purring. So if the 0:11:50.640 --> 0:11:54.280 purring is could sort of be understood as an expression 0:11:54.280 --> 0:11:57.240 of no need to change what's going on, uh, the 0:11:57.320 --> 0:12:01.480 meal could be a sort of request for change. Yeah. 0:12:01.679 --> 0:12:04.960 The squeak, however, is like a shorter, truncated version of this. 0:12:05.000 --> 0:12:07.560 And I think this is what Mochi is doing when 0:12:07.600 --> 0:12:12.000 she is demanding to be fed. Uh. So um, so 0:12:12.160 --> 0:12:14.760 it's it's not just a general call for attention or help, 0:12:14.800 --> 0:12:17.800 but a specific one like hey, I am standing next 0:12:17.840 --> 0:12:20.520 to the food bowl and there is no food. Now. 0:12:20.600 --> 0:12:24.440 As for the hiss, uh, it's still confounds me. Because 0:12:25.080 --> 0:12:27.960 uh in shots is writing here. She mostly writes that 0:12:28.040 --> 0:12:30.080 it is exactly what it sounds like, a warning that 0:12:30.160 --> 0:12:32.800 says enough, do not come any closer or I will 0:12:32.800 --> 0:12:36.240 attack you. But again, Mochi regularly does this to me 0:12:36.320 --> 0:12:39.920 after she bites me. Uh and and I should stress 0:12:39.960 --> 0:12:42.040 after I do not retaliate. It's not like I I 0:12:42.160 --> 0:12:43.960 come at her at that point then she has to 0:12:44.040 --> 0:12:46.560 hiss at me. I'm just standing there, dumbfound at the 0:12:46.559 --> 0:12:50.959 whole time. But but who knows. It's also a situation 0:12:50.960 --> 0:12:53.760 where sometimes they hiss when they're startled. Um. I think 0:12:53.800 --> 0:12:56.560 there are a lot of videos online of cats hissing 0:12:56.600 --> 0:12:59.079 at cucumbers that have been secreted behind them, that sort 0:12:59.120 --> 0:13:02.760 of thing. Oh, now, the chirp and the chatter. This, 0:13:02.760 --> 0:13:04.360 this is where it gets really interesting. And now this 0:13:04.400 --> 0:13:06.800 is something I don't see Mochi doing much. But I 0:13:06.840 --> 0:13:08.640 had a former cat named Biscuit who would do this 0:13:08.679 --> 0:13:11.760 a lot while watching birds. Um. I think if you've 0:13:12.200 --> 0:13:14.120 certainly a lot of cat owners out there are people 0:13:14.160 --> 0:13:17.720 that have been around cats, especially indoor cats, can relate 0:13:17.760 --> 0:13:20.080 to this. You know, your cat is watching birds or 0:13:20.120 --> 0:13:25.080 maybe even some rodents outside the window, and they're very 0:13:25.120 --> 0:13:27.679 like drawn into it. They're they're they're enticed by they're 0:13:27.720 --> 0:13:30.320 kind of hypnotized by the display, and then they kind 0:13:30.320 --> 0:13:32.679 of they kind of go ch ch chat or a 0:13:32.800 --> 0:13:35.040 church of church chirp kind of a sound, and kind 0:13:35.040 --> 0:13:37.400 of kind of like moving their mouths in a weird way, 0:13:38.040 --> 0:13:40.520 and it does seem like it's almost like they're trying 0:13:40.559 --> 0:13:43.160 to talk to the bird. I don't know if I've 0:13:43.200 --> 0:13:47.880 ever ever seen this happen. It's very interesting. And now 0:13:47.920 --> 0:13:51.760 shots describes them as as quote these sounds as quote 0:13:51.920 --> 0:13:55.520 a hunting instinct where the cat attempts to imitate the 0:13:55.600 --> 0:13:59.440 calls of the prey or the killing bite for example, 0:13:59.480 --> 0:14:02.280 when a bird or an insect catches the attention of 0:14:02.280 --> 0:14:04.439 the cat. Wow, I feel like I need to look 0:14:04.520 --> 0:14:08.920 up video of this. Yeah, it's either interpretation. I find 0:14:08.960 --> 0:14:11.000 interesting because first of all, the idea of your cat 0:14:11.160 --> 0:14:14.040 is sort of trying to speak to the prey or 0:14:14.080 --> 0:14:16.760 to sound like it, and you know, they're trying to 0:14:16.800 --> 0:14:19.840 speak to an its own tongue, Like that's inherently weird 0:14:19.880 --> 0:14:23.000 and interesting. But also this idea that like they're literally 0:14:23.080 --> 0:14:25.440 chomping at the bit to deliver a killing bite to 0:14:25.480 --> 0:14:28.120 the neck of that organism out there. It's like, oh, 0:14:28.160 --> 0:14:29.680 I can't get to you, but if I could, oh, 0:14:29.720 --> 0:14:33.720 I would just right into your neck. Okay, Rob, I 0:14:33.800 --> 0:14:36.320 take it back. I was totally wrong. I just looked 0:14:36.360 --> 0:14:38.600 up a video of the chattering, and I have seen 0:14:38.640 --> 0:14:40.680 this before. For some reason, I just didn't connect to 0:14:40.720 --> 0:14:43.000 what you were saying. Yes, the the chat well, it's 0:14:43.040 --> 0:14:46.640 like the chattering cinnabite almost. It's just the yeah, the 0:14:46.800 --> 0:14:50.080 teeth going up and down and the little noise there. 0:14:50.200 --> 0:14:52.800 I have seen this, and and it is it is 0:14:52.880 --> 0:14:55.400 quite strange. I never knew what to make of it. Uh, 0:14:55.440 --> 0:14:59.320 this is this is what shots also adds inner quote. 0:14:59.560 --> 0:15:03.000 A cat who sees an unreachable bird chatters and imitates 0:15:03.000 --> 0:15:06.840 a killing bite in a stereotypical way. The action could 0:15:06.880 --> 0:15:10.040 serve as a means of stress relief. Some cats also 0:15:10.120 --> 0:15:12.760 chatter as a means of protest, for example, when they 0:15:12.800 --> 0:15:15.440 feel they have been mistreated by their humans, or when 0:15:15.440 --> 0:15:19.280 they are annoyed. It's kind of like punching the air. Yeah, 0:15:19.320 --> 0:15:20.720 it's kind of like, oh, I want to eat you 0:15:20.720 --> 0:15:24.440 and I can't expression, which again especially makes sense for 0:15:24.560 --> 0:15:27.320 indoor cats who are looking out through the glass at 0:15:27.360 --> 0:15:30.600 a delicious bird. So anyway, if you want to dive 0:15:30.600 --> 0:15:33.320 deeper into uh in the actual research. Again, the the 0:15:33.360 --> 0:15:37.160 Ignoble Prize website has links to all of these all 0:15:37.200 --> 0:15:39.400 five of these studies that are mentioned in the awards. 0:15:39.440 --> 0:15:41.480 But I have to say, The Secret Language of Cats 0:15:41.520 --> 0:15:44.080 Is is a very interesting book, very readable, and it's 0:15:44.120 --> 0:15:46.840 not just about like you know, uh, direct one to 0:15:46.960 --> 0:15:49.720 one sort of you know, translations. It's about like, what 0:15:49.800 --> 0:15:53.080 are these strange creatures that we live with? Um, you know, 0:15:53.120 --> 0:15:56.160 how are we supposed to think about them? Uh? And uh? 0:15:56.160 --> 0:15:59.120 And she also shares some like personal experience with cats, 0:15:59.560 --> 0:16:02.480 um about you know, her desire to have a cat 0:16:02.560 --> 0:16:04.680 as a child and how she didn't get to have one, 0:16:04.760 --> 0:16:07.400 but then later I believe as an adult that's when 0:16:07.480 --> 0:16:10.280 cats actually entered her life and her home and uh 0:16:10.600 --> 0:16:17.720 ended up being a part of her work. Bravo, thank you, 0:16:17.920 --> 0:16:20.640 thank you. All right, Joe, what what do you have 0:16:20.720 --> 0:16:24.040 for us next? Well? I figured, since in the last 0:16:24.040 --> 0:16:26.800 episode I talked about people slamming their faces into each 0:16:26.840 --> 0:16:29.440 other while colliding on a on a sidewalk, I should 0:16:29.480 --> 0:16:33.760 continue the face slamming theme and UH and talk about 0:16:33.800 --> 0:16:38.800 the Peace Prize, for which was given to Ethan Bisserah, 0:16:38.920 --> 0:16:44.040 Stephen Nailway, and David Carrier quote for testing the hypothesis 0:16:44.040 --> 0:16:48.280 that humans evolved beards to protect themselves from punches to 0:16:48.360 --> 0:16:51.800 the face. This is fun because we've we've discussed David 0:16:51.800 --> 0:16:55.040 Carrier's research on the show before, not only related to beards, 0:16:55.040 --> 0:16:59.000 but to particularly remember the evolution of human fists and 0:16:59.040 --> 0:17:03.200 the possible connection into punching. Right. So, yeah, Carrier has 0:17:03.240 --> 0:17:06.080 got this research is part of an arc. Uh, and 0:17:06.119 --> 0:17:08.240 we've talked about other parts of this arc on the 0:17:08.280 --> 0:17:12.760 show before. Um So, David Carrier is a University of 0:17:12.880 --> 0:17:16.240 Utah biologist and one of his big projects that seems 0:17:16.280 --> 0:17:19.280 for a few years is the pursuit of a broader 0:17:19.359 --> 0:17:23.239 theory of human evolution that places a big emphasis on 0:17:23.320 --> 0:17:27.560 punching people in the face. Uh. Basically the idea that 0:17:28.080 --> 0:17:31.879 much of the way that human bodies are today was 0:17:31.920 --> 0:17:35.520 a result of pressure that arose from male fist fighting 0:17:35.560 --> 0:17:38.679 and punching to the jaw. So before the beard thing, 0:17:38.760 --> 0:17:41.280 yeah you mentioned there was he did a study about 0:17:41.440 --> 0:17:45.200 human hands and try to argue that the current shape 0:17:45.240 --> 0:17:48.280 of the human hand could be an adaptation for better 0:17:48.480 --> 0:17:52.119 fist fighting. UM. I think the more common understanding is 0:17:52.119 --> 0:17:54.960 that the primary evolutionary pressure on the morphology of the 0:17:55.000 --> 0:17:57.960 human hand is that it was built for dexterity, for 0:17:58.080 --> 0:18:03.520 gripping and manipulating object and little fine motor tasks. But 0:18:03.720 --> 0:18:06.080 I think a lot of carriers research, if I remember 0:18:06.080 --> 0:18:08.480 it correctly, and this is that it's also getting into 0:18:08.480 --> 0:18:10.840 the fact that, yes, you need to do all that stuff, 0:18:11.119 --> 0:18:13.560 but you also need to be able to deliver a 0:18:13.600 --> 0:18:16.960 punch without robbing yourself of the ability to use that 0:18:17.040 --> 0:18:20.800 fine dexterity later. Right, Yeah, So, in in support of 0:18:20.840 --> 0:18:24.440 his broader argument, Carrier has done experiments to show back 0:18:24.480 --> 0:18:28.280 with the example to hand. He did some research showing 0:18:28.359 --> 0:18:30.840 that the shape of the human hand allows for the 0:18:30.880 --> 0:18:34.320 formation of a tight fist. I think it's the form 0:18:34.440 --> 0:18:37.240 that he calls the butt trest fist, where the thumb 0:18:37.320 --> 0:18:40.080 is curled under to protect the fingers and tuck them 0:18:40.080 --> 0:18:43.760 into the palm um. And this allows the fist to 0:18:43.800 --> 0:18:46.600 serve as a club which can deliver heavy blows with 0:18:46.720 --> 0:18:49.760 reduced risk of injury to the hand as compared to 0:18:50.320 --> 0:18:53.239 a more open handed punch where the fingers and the 0:18:53.240 --> 0:18:56.840 thumb are not curled tightly like that. And so I 0:18:56.920 --> 0:18:59.359 want to say, this may be true that the human 0:18:59.400 --> 0:19:02.160 hand happen to be good at forming a fist, and 0:19:02.240 --> 0:19:04.520 I have no reason to doubt their findings that that 0:19:04.560 --> 0:19:07.760 can help deliver blows with reduced risk of injury to 0:19:07.800 --> 0:19:10.920 the hand, though I still think it wouldn't necessarily prove 0:19:11.040 --> 0:19:15.080 that punching behaviors were were the main or even a 0:19:15.160 --> 0:19:19.400 major part of what the hand evolved for, because I mean, 0:19:19.480 --> 0:19:22.040 if you want to think about analogies, see if the 0:19:22.080 --> 0:19:25.879 same logic holds up. Um, you could find that certain 0:19:25.960 --> 0:19:31.280 characteristics of the human skull helped protect the brain during headbutting, 0:19:31.720 --> 0:19:34.639 but that wouldn't necessarily prove that the need to deliver 0:19:34.760 --> 0:19:38.440 headbuts was a decisive factor in shaping how human skulls 0:19:38.440 --> 0:19:41.720 are today. So in the past, along these lines, I 0:19:41.720 --> 0:19:44.919 think I've expressed some skepticism about the idea of of 0:19:45.359 --> 0:19:51.120 carriers punching focused view of human evolution. I certainly don't 0:19:51.119 --> 0:19:53.639 want to be dismissive. I just I just feel a 0:19:53.640 --> 0:19:56.400 lot of doubts, like it raises a lot of questions 0:19:56.440 --> 0:19:58.960 for me. One, I was trying if I maybe He's 0:19:58.960 --> 0:20:00.959 addressed this somewhere, but I was trying to find if 0:20:01.000 --> 0:20:05.359 there's actually even any evidence that closed fist punching is 0:20:05.400 --> 0:20:09.080 a natural instinctual behavior in humans, as opposed to a 0:20:09.200 --> 0:20:13.359 relatively rare modern convention that has to be learned and 0:20:13.520 --> 0:20:16.760 enforced by social norms. Because like you you can go 0:20:16.880 --> 0:20:20.119 if you read, um, you know, like boxing coaches and 0:20:20.160 --> 0:20:22.000 people say, you know, they talk about how you like 0:20:22.080 --> 0:20:24.399 have to learn how to make the right kind of 0:20:24.400 --> 0:20:26.560 fist and if you don't, you could injure your hand. 0:20:27.240 --> 0:20:30.000 So that's not something that people just do by instinct. 0:20:30.040 --> 0:20:33.359 It's something that has to be taught. But but maybe 0:20:33.359 --> 0:20:35.560 that has been addressed somewhere, And I want to be fair, 0:20:35.720 --> 0:20:37.399 but I also just think about how, like you know, 0:20:37.480 --> 0:20:39.800 you can obviously do even more damage in a fight 0:20:39.840 --> 0:20:42.399 with less risk of injury to yourself by holding a 0:20:42.440 --> 0:20:45.200 stick or a rock in your hand, uh than by 0:20:45.200 --> 0:20:48.520 punching with a closed fist. Um. But you know, all 0:20:48.560 --> 0:20:51.359 of those questions aside, I would of course remain open 0:20:51.359 --> 0:20:54.359 minded too good evidence in this vein, even though I 0:20:54.400 --> 0:20:57.840 got my doubts so uh. In this study, the authors 0:20:57.920 --> 0:21:02.119 extend the the fist punch morephology question to beards, and 0:21:02.160 --> 0:21:06.000 the question here would be why do human males tend 0:21:06.040 --> 0:21:11.120 to grow beards. UM, So the evolutionary pressures driving sexual 0:21:11.160 --> 0:21:14.719 dimorphism and facial hair are still up for debate, So 0:21:15.000 --> 0:21:17.840 this is not in any way considered a settled question 0:21:17.920 --> 0:21:20.359 that you know, it's perfectly good arena for people to 0:21:20.720 --> 0:21:23.960 h to advance different hypotheses and try to test them. 0:21:24.000 --> 0:21:26.840 I think the main hypotheses in this area in the 0:21:26.880 --> 0:21:30.480 past have been based on social signaling, right, that beards 0:21:30.520 --> 0:21:34.360 exist primarily to make some kind of impression on other 0:21:34.400 --> 0:21:37.399 people in the minds of other humans, rather than to 0:21:37.520 --> 0:21:42.280 serve any kind of mechanical function. So maybe beards are 0:21:42.320 --> 0:21:45.639 supposed to make you more sexually attractive, though there is 0:21:45.680 --> 0:21:49.080 some doubt about that one, because I think modern studies 0:21:49.160 --> 0:21:53.720 do not find that women consistently find beards more attractive. 0:21:54.480 --> 0:21:58.360