1
00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,400
Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of My

2
00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:14,840
Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind.

3
00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:17,759
Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and

4
00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:20,440
Speaker 1: we're back with part two of this year's talk about

5
00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:23,520
Speaker 1: the ig Nobel Prize winners. If you haven't heard part one,

6
00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:25,800
Speaker 1: you can go back and check that one out. First,

7
00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:29,080
Speaker 1: long story short, we're talking about the ig Nobel Prizes

8
00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:31,600
Speaker 1: again this year. We're not going to cover every prize,

9
00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:33,600
Speaker 1: but just pick out a few of the highlights that

10
00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:36,239
Speaker 1: we wanted to discuss. And Rob I think you're going

11
00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:38,919
Speaker 1: to kick us off today with the Biology Prize if

12
00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:42,400
Speaker 1: I'm not wrong, Yes, this is the Biology Prize. It

13
00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:46,640
Speaker 1: went to Suzanne Shots Robert Ecklund and used fond of

14
00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:54,840
Speaker 1: aga for analyzing variations in purring, chirping, chattering, trilling, tweeting, murmuring,

15
00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:59,000
Speaker 1: me owing, moaning, squeaking, hissing, yowling, howling, growling, and other

16
00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:04,759
Speaker 1: modes of cat human communication. Those are all cat human communication. Yeah, yeah,

17
00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:08,039
Speaker 1: so this is so one the couple of questions I

18
00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:11,440
Speaker 1: tend to ask myself about any Ignoble prize winning study

19
00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:14,080
Speaker 1: or paper right up, is first of all, why is

20
00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:17,240
Speaker 1: it funny? And then then secondly, why is it important?

21
00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:20,039
Speaker 1: Why does it matter? And of course it's pretty obvious

22
00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:22,840
Speaker 1: why this one. It's funny. It's cats. Anything cats do

23
00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:26,399
Speaker 1: has the potential to be hilarious because they are. They

24
00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:30,119
Speaker 1: are amusing, They are are strange fur babies, are are

25
00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:33,120
Speaker 1: the weird desert goblins that live in so many of

26
00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:36,080
Speaker 1: our houses or haunt our yards. I think in many ways,

27
00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:39,080
Speaker 1: cats are funny, almost exactly to the extent that they

28
00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:43,839
Speaker 1: appear to take themselves very seriously. Yeah, well so they

29
00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:46,919
Speaker 1: that's true. But they're also some very silly looking cats.

30
00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:49,520
Speaker 1: But yeah, they they do often have this kind of

31
00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:52,960
Speaker 1: serious demeanor and they it's easy too for us to

32
00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:56,040
Speaker 1: apply human motivations to their behavior and thinking, oh, well,

33
00:01:56,040 --> 00:01:59,200
Speaker 1: they're they're covering for a mistake here, they're they're they're

34
00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:03,320
Speaker 1: trying to, uh, you know, uphold their dignity. Uh. There's

35
00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:05,520
Speaker 1: a lot we can read into the behaviors of cats,

36
00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:09,520
Speaker 1: but the the actual scenario with cat, I mean, any

37
00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:14,960
Speaker 1: human domestication of another animal species is inherently interesting. That

38
00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:18,600
Speaker 1: the cat model may be one of the most interesting

39
00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:21,600
Speaker 1: of all because it is this kind of at times

40
00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:26,920
Speaker 1: arguably a self domestication. It's this uh this interesting um

41
00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:30,360
Speaker 1: you know, um balance that is struck between what the

42
00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:33,880
Speaker 1: cat wants and what the human wants. Um. And you

43
00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:36,919
Speaker 1: know so many of us live that every day, that

44
00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:40,680
Speaker 1: that uneasy truce with the feline kind. You're always wondering

45
00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:43,480
Speaker 1: if your cat really respects you. This is less a

46
00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:46,160
Speaker 1: problem for dog owners. Oh I don't know. I mean

47
00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:48,519
Speaker 1: I I never wonder and I know my cat doesn't

48
00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:52,480
Speaker 1: respect me. It's but but well we'll get into that.

49
00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:55,880
Speaker 1: So this this uh, this study or actually it's really

50
00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:58,960
Speaker 1: a series of studies. Um. You know, they deal with

51
00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:01,640
Speaker 1: the vocalization of cats. And uh, if if you're not

52
00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:03,320
Speaker 1: that familiar with cats, if you're not around the much,

53
00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:05,959
Speaker 1: you might be surprised by this because cats are often

54
00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:09,840
Speaker 1: pretty quiet. Um, they can be very quiet, very stealthy.

55
00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:13,200
Speaker 1: And while the meal is the most famous cat noise

56
00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:16,000
Speaker 1: and one that is sometimes treated it as kind of

57
00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:20,000
Speaker 1: kind of a monolithic vocalization, there's actually quite a diversity

58
00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:22,280
Speaker 1: to the sounds you're liable to hear come out of

59
00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:27,239
Speaker 1: a cat if you listen enough. So everyone everyone's cat

60
00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:30,000
Speaker 1: is different. I mean cats have have can have amazingly

61
00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:35,920
Speaker 1: different personalities but concerning my own current cat, Mochi, here

62
00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:39,040
Speaker 1: are some of her most common utterances, so that I

63
00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:42,960
Speaker 1: might mention these before getting into some of the researchers findings.

64
00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:46,640
Speaker 1: So first of all, uh, there's there is of course purring. Uh.

65
00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:49,360
Speaker 1: Mochi will do this while seated close to or on

66
00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:53,320
Speaker 1: a human uh, you know, whilst relaxing. There's also the

67
00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:57,480
Speaker 1: hiss she will generally she'll hiss in other situations, like

68
00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:00,600
Speaker 1: if she's surprised or something, but uh, straight antually enough,

69
00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:04,400
Speaker 1: she most commonly hisses after she has just randomly attacked

70
00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:08,360
Speaker 1: my foot. She'll be near my foot, she will like

71
00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:12,240
Speaker 1: play by my toe, and then she will recoil and

72
00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:14,800
Speaker 1: hiss at me like I did something. One of my

73
00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:18,480
Speaker 1: most vivid memories of a cat hissing is when I

74
00:04:18,520 --> 00:04:20,440
Speaker 1: was in college, a friend of mine called me to

75
00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:24,320
Speaker 1: come over and help deal with an incredibly large spider

76
00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:28,040
Speaker 1: discovered in the apartment, and the cat in the apartment

77
00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:31,120
Speaker 1: there was just was just hissing at it, just violently

78
00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:35,960
Speaker 1: hissing at a at a huge black spider. Interesting again,

79
00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:38,720
Speaker 1: cats are so so different than they have such such

80
00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:41,719
Speaker 1: an interesting personalities. I don't think I've ever heard my

81
00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:45,720
Speaker 1: cat hiss at a non human entity, but then again,

82
00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:47,800
Speaker 1: she's she's an indoor cat and it's kind of cut

83
00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:51,880
Speaker 1: off from most non human entities. My cat Mochi will

84
00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:54,240
Speaker 1: also do something that we affectionately refer to as the

85
00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:58,880
Speaker 1: midnight baby parade, sometimes not affectionately, depending on the circumstances.

86
00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:00,680
Speaker 1: But this is when she carries a toy or small

87
00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:03,800
Speaker 1: stuffed animal around the house, generally after we've all gone

88
00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:07,000
Speaker 1: to bed, and as a kind of repetitive, mournful howling

89
00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:11,680
Speaker 1: about it about you, like something about the toy has

90
00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:16,080
Speaker 1: made her sad. Now, based on some of the readings

91
00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:20,280
Speaker 1: I'll get into, um, I believe it is a communication

92
00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:24,360
Speaker 1: aimed at us, at us humans, uh, saying hey, I

93
00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:27,120
Speaker 1: have I have caught you something I have provided, I

94
00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:29,520
Speaker 1: have a treat for you, or and or I'm teaching

95
00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:32,560
Speaker 1: you how to hunt something to that effect. So um,

96
00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:35,600
Speaker 1: so it's not actually mournful. That's just our read of it.

97
00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:39,159
Speaker 1: It sounds kind of weird and pathetic, but see it is,

98
00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:44,080
Speaker 1: but it is a vocal communication of sorts. Finally, Mochi

99
00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:46,320
Speaker 1: will use what I think of as the bossy mew,

100
00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:49,920
Speaker 1: a kind of sharp, truncated meal that feels bossy and

101
00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:52,320
Speaker 1: is often administered when she is ready to be fed

102
00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:55,320
Speaker 1: and we're being too slow about it. Oh, from Charlie

103
00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:58,680
Speaker 1: in that same situation, we get the huffs where he

104
00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:04,160
Speaker 1: doesn't fully bark, but it's them. Yeah, yeah, I mean,

105
00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:07,760
Speaker 1: it's it's It's really remarkable when you when you think

106
00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:10,440
Speaker 1: about it, you know, all these these various communications that

107
00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:13,160
Speaker 1: are going on between us and these these non human

108
00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:16,120
Speaker 1: beings in our homes. Now, there are probably some other

109
00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:18,360
Speaker 1: sounds from Mochi that I'm forgetting, and there's still others

110
00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:21,200
Speaker 1: that our old cat would make, such as the chirping

111
00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:24,000
Speaker 1: at birds, which I'll definitely get into. But those are

112
00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:26,720
Speaker 1: the main ones that are in my life that I

113
00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:30,640
Speaker 1: carried into reading about this research. And and again, one

114
00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:32,320
Speaker 1: of the crazy things about all this is that we

115
00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:35,480
Speaker 1: can we can anthropomorphize our cats all day, but we're

116
00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:38,840
Speaker 1: left with with very real questions regarding what these sounds

117
00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:41,760
Speaker 1: are and what purpose they serve. And on top of that,

118
00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:45,080
Speaker 1: we're looking at it within the context of domesticated cohabitation

119
00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:48,200
Speaker 1: with human beings. Right, so are these sounds that are

120
00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:52,560
Speaker 1: naturally part of the part of the cat's behavioral repertoire

121
00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:56,800
Speaker 1: in their ancestral environment, or do they somehow emerge from

122
00:06:56,839 --> 00:07:00,640
Speaker 1: being domesticated and being partnered with humans. Yeah, so it

123
00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:04,760
Speaker 1: gets it gets very complicated. So um, the lead author

124
00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:08,279
Speaker 1: on I think all what five studies that were referenced

125
00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:12,000
Speaker 1: in the the Ignoble Prize being awarded here, the lead

126
00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:15,440
Speaker 1: author and all of them was Susan Shots. And if

127
00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:19,120
Speaker 1: you're interested in Shots's work, she actually has a book

128
00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:23,000
Speaker 1: aimed at general readers and cat owners titled The Secret

129
00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:26,600
Speaker 1: Language of Cats. Um, and I actually picked this up

130
00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:29,880
Speaker 1: and kind of focused on this more than the individual studies, uh.

131
00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:33,760
Speaker 1: In it, she details seventeen different cats sounds, and I'm

132
00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:35,000
Speaker 1: not going to go through all of them, but it's

133
00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:39,520
Speaker 1: fascinating how these include sounds that are targeted at seemingly

134
00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:43,120
Speaker 1: targeted at prey, but also targeted at other cats and

135
00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:47,440
Speaker 1: targeted at humans. Which ones are we closer to the

136
00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:50,000
Speaker 1: when they're talking to humans. Is it more like their

137
00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:53,239
Speaker 1: interactions with prey or more like other cats? It seems

138
00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:55,040
Speaker 1: to be like other cats. And I've I've read other

139
00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:58,320
Speaker 1: research that that that summarizes it, you know, in the

140
00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:01,320
Speaker 1: same way saying like, well, your cat basically thinks of

141
00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:04,120
Speaker 1: you as a giant cat, or your cat basically thinks

142
00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:08,040
Speaker 1: of you as a giant kitten, that sort of thing. So,

143
00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:10,800
Speaker 1: just rolling through some of the sounds here and what

144
00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:14,200
Speaker 1: shots have to say about them. For instance, purring, uh

145
00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:18,720
Speaker 1: is complex because while it is largely associated with with

146
00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:21,520
Speaker 1: the cat feeling content, you can also mean that the

147
00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:24,160
Speaker 1: cat is hungry, that it is pain, that the cat

148
00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:27,560
Speaker 1: is anxious, or that the cat is giving birth or dying.

149
00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:30,600
Speaker 1: Oh wow, well that's a range. Yeah. So she writes

150
00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:34,680
Speaker 1: that purring probably would translate in human language, and she

151
00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:36,319
Speaker 1: she does a lot of this, like like, if you

152
00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:38,520
Speaker 1: were to translate this into human language, what is the

153
00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:41,800
Speaker 1: cat saying? It probably means something like I am no threat,

154
00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:45,640
Speaker 1: or please leave everything as it is, or keep doing

155
00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:48,840
Speaker 1: Oh I can see that. Okay, So whether the cat

156
00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:51,600
Speaker 1: is happy with what's going on right now and doesn't

157
00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:54,400
Speaker 1: want to be disturbed, or is in a vulnerable state

158
00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:56,719
Speaker 1: of some kind and doesn't want to be disturbed, it's

159
00:08:56,720 --> 00:09:00,000
Speaker 1: basically just kind of like, hey, things are fine. Yeah.

160
00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:02,760
Speaker 1: Now I've heard that tidbit about the dying before, and

161
00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:04,640
Speaker 1: I was was having to think back where i'd heard it,

162
00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:07,480
Speaker 1: and I think I actually heard about it the first

163
00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:11,600
Speaker 1: time in a poem titled Purring by Coleman Barks, who

164
00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:14,559
Speaker 1: uh incidentally, I think we've brought up on the podcast before,

165
00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:18,200
Speaker 1: because in addition to being a poet of his own work,

166
00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:23,000
Speaker 1: he is also the the Roomy interpreter, who has sometimes

167
00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:25,480
Speaker 1: criticized for not being an actual translator in the true

168
00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:28,360
Speaker 1: sense of the word. He neither reads nor writes Persian,

169
00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:32,640
Speaker 1: but rather sort of rephrases the poems of roomi um

170
00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:37,200
Speaker 1: as English language poems. But anyway, the poem in question

171
00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:39,080
Speaker 1: is is rather good and has nothing to do with

172
00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:42,480
Speaker 1: the poetry of of of Roomy or Persia. It's all

173
00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:45,880
Speaker 1: about cat purring. And this is the key part. Quote

174
00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:49,360
Speaker 1: here is something I have never heard. A feline purrs

175
00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:53,560
Speaker 1: and two conditions when deeply content and when mortally wounded

176
00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:58,199
Speaker 1: to calm themselves reading for the death opening. Oh that's

177
00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:00,760
Speaker 1: kind of chilling. Yeah. I've aways found this part of

178
00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:03,160
Speaker 1: the poem very spot on regarding cats and death, because

179
00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:06,400
Speaker 1: I feel like Mochi if she gets too cold or

180
00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:08,440
Speaker 1: if she has some sort of health flare up, she

181
00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:11,599
Speaker 1: basically says to us, I must now settle down and

182
00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:15,480
Speaker 1: await the death opening, and we're usually like, no, there's

183
00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:17,960
Speaker 1: no there's no reason to just accept death. You should

184
00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:20,760
Speaker 1: maybe you should drink some water instead, You're probably dehydrated.

185
00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:24,600
Speaker 1: And she's like, no, I would prefer death. Oh yeah yeah.

186
00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:28,240
Speaker 1: So is is that in general that cats are likely

187
00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:30,960
Speaker 1: to have kind of strange relationships with water or is

188
00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:35,000
Speaker 1: that more specifically your cat? I mean, I've heard that.

189
00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:37,360
Speaker 1: You know, if you if you look back to where

190
00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:39,200
Speaker 1: cats come to us from, that you know they have

191
00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:42,679
Speaker 1: ties to desert environments where they wouldn't have access to

192
00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:45,360
Speaker 1: a lot of water. But you spend any amount of

193
00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:47,679
Speaker 1: time on the internet and you see that the cats

194
00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:49,360
Speaker 1: are kind of all over the place. There are cats

195
00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:53,360
Speaker 1: that habitually drink water from faucets and toilets, you know,

196
00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:57,040
Speaker 1: there are cats that that actually use their fountains. Uh.

197
00:10:57,080 --> 00:10:59,240
Speaker 1: And there then their households like ours, where I feel

198
00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:02,600
Speaker 1: like we have we put out various fountains and and

199
00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:05,720
Speaker 1: bowls of water as kind of a spiritual offering, so

200
00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:09,160
Speaker 1: that the idea of water is present. So in the end,

201
00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:12,000
Speaker 1: she gets I think all of her moisture through her

202
00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:17,080
Speaker 1: wet food, and otherwise I think she would just dry up. Strange, Now,

203
00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:19,559
Speaker 1: when it comes to the meals. Shots points out that

204
00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:23,040
Speaker 1: meals are very often about getting the attention of humans,

205
00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:26,240
Speaker 1: and there are really a whole suite of mews. Uh.

206
00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:29,280
Speaker 1: For instance, there's the mew, which is a very high

207
00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:33,760
Speaker 1: pitched meal probably generally something that translates as a call

208
00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:37,680
Speaker 1: to attention or help. And then outside of cat human relations,

209
00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:40,080
Speaker 1: this is also the sound a kitten makes to its mother.

210
00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:43,160
Speaker 1: So this is a situation where we're we're kind of

211
00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:45,840
Speaker 1: a giant cat mother to our cats, at least in

212
00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:48,480
Speaker 1: some circumstances. Oh, you can almost look at that as

213
00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:50,600
Speaker 1: a kind of counterpoint to the purring. So if the

214
00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:54,280
Speaker 1: purring is could sort of be understood as an expression

215
00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:57,240
Speaker 1: of no need to change what's going on, uh, the

216
00:11:57,320 --> 00:12:01,480
Speaker 1: meal could be a sort of request for change. Yeah.

217
00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:04,960
Speaker 1: The squeak, however, is like a shorter, truncated version of this.

218
00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:07,560
Speaker 1: And I think this is what Mochi is doing when

219
00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:12,000
Speaker 1: she is demanding to be fed. Uh. So um, so

220
00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:14,760
Speaker 1: it's it's not just a general call for attention or help,

221
00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:17,800
Speaker 1: but a specific one like hey, I am standing next

222
00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:20,520
Speaker 1: to the food bowl and there is no food. Now.

223
00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:24,440
Speaker 1: As for the hiss, uh, it's still confounds me. Because

224
00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:27,960
Speaker 1: uh in shots is writing here. She mostly writes that

225
00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:30,080
Speaker 1: it is exactly what it sounds like, a warning that

226
00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:32,800
Speaker 1: says enough, do not come any closer or I will

227
00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:36,240
Speaker 1: attack you. But again, Mochi regularly does this to me

228
00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:39,920
Speaker 1: after she bites me. Uh and and I should stress

229
00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:42,040
Speaker 1: after I do not retaliate. It's not like I I

230
00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:43,960
Speaker 1: come at her at that point then she has to

231
00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:46,560
Speaker 1: hiss at me. I'm just standing there, dumbfound at the

232
00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:50,959
Speaker 1: whole time. But but who knows. It's also a situation

233
00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:53,760
Speaker 1: where sometimes they hiss when they're startled. Um. I think

234
00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:56,560
Speaker 1: there are a lot of videos online of cats hissing

235
00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:59,079
Speaker 1: at cucumbers that have been secreted behind them, that sort

236
00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:02,760
Speaker 1: of thing. Oh, now, the chirp and the chatter. This,

237
00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:04,360
Speaker 1: this is where it gets really interesting. And now this

238
00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:06,800
Speaker 1: is something I don't see Mochi doing much. But I

239
00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:08,640
Speaker 1: had a former cat named Biscuit who would do this

240
00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:11,760
Speaker 1: a lot while watching birds. Um. I think if you've

241
00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:14,120
Speaker 1: certainly a lot of cat owners out there are people

242
00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:17,720
Speaker 1: that have been around cats, especially indoor cats, can relate

243
00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:20,080
Speaker 1: to this. You know, your cat is watching birds or

244
00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:25,080
Speaker 1: maybe even some rodents outside the window, and they're very

245
00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:27,679
Speaker 1: like drawn into it. They're they're they're enticed by they're

246
00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:30,320
Speaker 1: kind of hypnotized by the display, and then they kind

247
00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:32,679
Speaker 1: of they kind of go ch ch chat or a

248
00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:35,040
Speaker 1: church of church chirp kind of a sound, and kind

249
00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:37,400
Speaker 1: of kind of like moving their mouths in a weird way,

250
00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:40,520
Speaker 1: and it does seem like it's almost like they're trying

251
00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:43,160
Speaker 1: to talk to the bird. I don't know if I've

252
00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:47,880
Speaker 1: ever ever seen this happen. It's very interesting. And now

253
00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:51,760
Speaker 1: shots describes them as as quote these sounds as quote

254
00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:55,520
Speaker 1: a hunting instinct where the cat attempts to imitate the

255
00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:59,440
Speaker 1: calls of the prey or the killing bite for example,

256
00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:02,280
Speaker 1: when a bird or an insect catches the attention of

257
00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:04,439
Speaker 1: the cat. Wow, I feel like I need to look

258
00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:08,920
Speaker 1: up video of this. Yeah, it's either interpretation. I find

259
00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:11,000
Speaker 1: interesting because first of all, the idea of your cat

260
00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:14,040
Speaker 1: is sort of trying to speak to the prey or

261
00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:16,760
Speaker 1: to sound like it, and you know, they're trying to

262
00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:19,840
Speaker 1: speak to an its own tongue, Like that's inherently weird

263
00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:23,000
Speaker 1: and interesting. But also this idea that like they're literally

264
00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:25,440
Speaker 1: chomping at the bit to deliver a killing bite to

265
00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:28,120
Speaker 1: the neck of that organism out there. It's like, oh,

266
00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:29,680
Speaker 1: I can't get to you, but if I could, oh,

267
00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:33,720
Speaker 1: I would just right into your neck. Okay, Rob, I

268
00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:36,320
Speaker 1: take it back. I was totally wrong. I just looked

269
00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:38,600
Speaker 1: up a video of the chattering, and I have seen

270
00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:40,680
Speaker 1: this before. For some reason, I just didn't connect to

271
00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:43,000
Speaker 1: what you were saying. Yes, the the chat well, it's

272
00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:46,640
Speaker 1: like the chattering cinnabite almost. It's just the yeah, the

273
00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:50,080
Speaker 1: teeth going up and down and the little noise there.

274
00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:52,800
Speaker 1: I have seen this, and and it is it is

275
00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:55,400
Speaker 1: quite strange. I never knew what to make of it. Uh,

276
00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:59,320
Speaker 1: this is this is what shots also adds inner quote.

277
00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:03,000
Speaker 1: A cat who sees an unreachable bird chatters and imitates

278
00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:06,840
Speaker 1: a killing bite in a stereotypical way. The action could

279
00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:10,040
Speaker 1: serve as a means of stress relief. Some cats also

280
00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:12,760
Speaker 1: chatter as a means of protest, for example, when they

281
00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:15,440
Speaker 1: feel they have been mistreated by their humans, or when

282
00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:19,280
Speaker 1: they are annoyed. It's kind of like punching the air. Yeah,

283
00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:20,720
Speaker 1: it's kind of like, oh, I want to eat you

284
00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:24,440
Speaker 1: and I can't expression, which again especially makes sense for

285
00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:27,320
Speaker 1: indoor cats who are looking out through the glass at

286
00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:30,600
Speaker 1: a delicious bird. So anyway, if you want to dive

287
00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:33,320
Speaker 1: deeper into uh in the actual research. Again, the the

288
00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:37,160
Speaker 1: Ignoble Prize website has links to all of these all

289
00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:39,400
Speaker 1: five of these studies that are mentioned in the awards.

290
00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:41,480
Speaker 1: But I have to say, The Secret Language of Cats

291
00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:44,080
Speaker 1: Is is a very interesting book, very readable, and it's

292
00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:46,840
Speaker 1: not just about like you know, uh, direct one to

293
00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:49,720
Speaker 1: one sort of you know, translations. It's about like, what

294
00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:53,080
Speaker 1: are these strange creatures that we live with? Um, you know,

295
00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:56,160
Speaker 1: how are we supposed to think about them? Uh? And uh?

296
00:15:56,160 --> 00:15:59,120
Speaker 1: And she also shares some like personal experience with cats,

297
00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:02,480
Speaker 1: um about you know, her desire to have a cat

298
00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:04,680
Speaker 1: as a child and how she didn't get to have one,

299
00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:07,400
Speaker 1: but then later I believe as an adult that's when

300
00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:10,280
Speaker 1: cats actually entered her life and her home and uh

301
00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:17,720
Speaker 1: ended up being a part of her work. Bravo, thank you,

302
00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:20,640
Speaker 1: thank you. All right, Joe, what what do you have

303
00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:24,040
Speaker 1: for us next? Well? I figured, since in the last

304
00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:26,800
Speaker 1: episode I talked about people slamming their faces into each

305
00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:29,440
Speaker 1: other while colliding on a on a sidewalk, I should

306
00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:33,760
Speaker 1: continue the face slamming theme and UH and talk about

307
00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:38,800
Speaker 1: the Peace Prize, for which was given to Ethan Bisserah,

308
00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:44,040
Speaker 1: Stephen Nailway, and David Carrier quote for testing the hypothesis

309
00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:48,280
Speaker 1: that humans evolved beards to protect themselves from punches to

310
00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:51,800
Speaker 1: the face. This is fun because we've we've discussed David

311
00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:55,040
Speaker 1: Carrier's research on the show before, not only related to beards,

312
00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:59,000
Speaker 1: but to particularly remember the evolution of human fists and

313
00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:03,200
Speaker 1: the possible connection into punching. Right. So, yeah, Carrier has

314
00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:06,080
Speaker 1: got this research is part of an arc. Uh, and

315
00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:08,240
Speaker 1: we've talked about other parts of this arc on the

316
00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:12,760
Speaker 1: show before. Um So, David Carrier is a University of

317
00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:16,240
Speaker 1: Utah biologist and one of his big projects that seems

318
00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:19,280
Speaker 1: for a few years is the pursuit of a broader

319
00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:23,239
Speaker 1: theory of human evolution that places a big emphasis on

320
00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:27,560
Speaker 1: punching people in the face. Uh. Basically the idea that

321
00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:31,879
Speaker 1: much of the way that human bodies are today was

322
00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:35,520
Speaker 1: a result of pressure that arose from male fist fighting

323
00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:38,679
Speaker 1: and punching to the jaw. So before the beard thing,

324
00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:41,280
Speaker 1: yeah you mentioned there was he did a study about

325
00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:45,200
Speaker 1: human hands and try to argue that the current shape

326
00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:48,280
Speaker 1: of the human hand could be an adaptation for better

327
00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:52,119
Speaker 1: fist fighting. UM. I think the more common understanding is

328
00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:54,960
Speaker 1: that the primary evolutionary pressure on the morphology of the

329
00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:57,960
Speaker 1: human hand is that it was built for dexterity, for

330
00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:03,520
Speaker 1: gripping and manipulating object and little fine motor tasks. But

331
00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:06,080
Speaker 1: I think a lot of carriers research, if I remember

332
00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:08,480
Speaker 1: it correctly, and this is that it's also getting into

333
00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:10,840
Speaker 1: the fact that, yes, you need to do all that stuff,

334
00:18:11,119 --> 00:18:13,560
Speaker 1: but you also need to be able to deliver a

335
00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:16,960
Speaker 1: punch without robbing yourself of the ability to use that

336
00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:20,800
Speaker 1: fine dexterity later. Right, Yeah, So, in in support of

337
00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:24,440
Speaker 1: his broader argument, Carrier has done experiments to show back

338
00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:28,280
Speaker 1: with the example to hand. He did some research showing

339
00:18:28,359 --> 00:18:30,840
Speaker 1: that the shape of the human hand allows for the

340
00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:34,320
Speaker 1: formation of a tight fist. I think it's the form

341
00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:37,240
Speaker 1: that he calls the butt trest fist, where the thumb

342
00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:40,080
Speaker 1: is curled under to protect the fingers and tuck them

343
00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:43,760
Speaker 1: into the palm um. And this allows the fist to

344
00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:46,600
Speaker 1: serve as a club which can deliver heavy blows with

345
00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:49,760
Speaker 1: reduced risk of injury to the hand as compared to

346
00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:53,239
Speaker 1: a more open handed punch where the fingers and the

347
00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:56,840
Speaker 1: thumb are not curled tightly like that. And so I

348
00:18:56,920 --> 00:18:59,359
Speaker 1: want to say, this may be true that the human

349
00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:02,160
Speaker 1: hand happen to be good at forming a fist, and

350
00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:04,520
Speaker 1: I have no reason to doubt their findings that that

351
00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:07,760
Speaker 1: can help deliver blows with reduced risk of injury to

352
00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:10,920
Speaker 1: the hand, though I still think it wouldn't necessarily prove

353
00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:15,080
Speaker 1: that punching behaviors were were the main or even a

354
00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:19,400
Speaker 1: major part of what the hand evolved for, because I mean,

355
00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:22,040
Speaker 1: if you want to think about analogies, see if the

356
00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:25,879
Speaker 1: same logic holds up. Um, you could find that certain

357
00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:31,280
Speaker 1: characteristics of the human skull helped protect the brain during headbutting,

358
00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:34,639
Speaker 1: but that wouldn't necessarily prove that the need to deliver

359
00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:38,440
Speaker 1: headbuts was a decisive factor in shaping how human skulls

360
00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:41,720
Speaker 1: are today. So in the past, along these lines, I

361
00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:44,919
Speaker 1: think I've expressed some skepticism about the idea of of

362
00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:51,120
Speaker 1: carriers punching focused view of human evolution. I certainly don't

363
00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:53,639
Speaker 1: want to be dismissive. I just I just feel a

364
00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:56,400
Speaker 1: lot of doubts, like it raises a lot of questions

365
00:19:56,440 --> 00:19:58,960
Speaker 1: for me. One, I was trying if I maybe He's

366
00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:00,959
Speaker 1: addressed this somewhere, but I was trying to find if

367
00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:05,359
Speaker 1: there's actually even any evidence that closed fist punching is

368
00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:09,080
Speaker 1: a natural instinctual behavior in humans, as opposed to a

369
00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:13,359
Speaker 1: relatively rare modern convention that has to be learned and

370
00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:16,760
Speaker 1: enforced by social norms. Because like you you can go

371
00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:20,119
Speaker 1: if you read, um, you know, like boxing coaches and

372
00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:22,000
Speaker 1: people say, you know, they talk about how you like

373
00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:24,399
Speaker 1: have to learn how to make the right kind of

374
00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:26,560
Speaker 1: fist and if you don't, you could injure your hand.

375
00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:30,000
Speaker 1: So that's not something that people just do by instinct.

376
00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:33,359
Speaker 1: It's something that has to be taught. But but maybe

377
00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:35,560
Speaker 1: that has been addressed somewhere, And I want to be fair,

378
00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:37,399
Speaker 1: but I also just think about how, like you know,

379
00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:39,800
Speaker 1: you can obviously do even more damage in a fight

380
00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:42,399
Speaker 1: with less risk of injury to yourself by holding a

381
00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:45,200
Speaker 1: stick or a rock in your hand, uh than by

382
00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:48,520
Speaker 1: punching with a closed fist. Um. But you know, all

383
00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:51,359
Speaker 1: of those questions aside, I would of course remain open

384
00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:54,359
Speaker 1: minded too good evidence in this vein, even though I

385
00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:57,840
Speaker 1: got my doubts so uh. In this study, the authors

386
00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:02,119
Speaker 1: extend the the fist punch morephology question to beards, and

387
00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:06,000
Speaker 1: the question here would be why do human males tend

388
00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:11,120
Speaker 1: to grow beards. UM, So the evolutionary pressures driving sexual

389
00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:14,719
Speaker 1: dimorphism and facial hair are still up for debate, So

390
00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:17,840
Speaker 1: this is not in any way considered a settled question

391
00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:20,359
Speaker 1: that you know, it's perfectly good arena for people to

392
00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:23,960
Speaker 1: h to advance different hypotheses and try to test them.

393
00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:26,840
Speaker 1: I think the main hypotheses in this area in the

394
00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:30,480
Speaker 1: past have been based on social signaling, right, that beards

395
00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:34,360
Speaker 1: exist primarily to make some kind of impression on other

396
00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:37,399
Speaker 1: people in the minds of other humans, rather than to

397
00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:42,280
Speaker 1: serve any kind of mechanical function. So maybe beards are

398
00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:45,639
Speaker 1: supposed to make you more sexually attractive, though there is

399
00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:49,080
Speaker 1: some doubt about that one, because I think modern studies

400
00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:53,720
Speaker 1: do not find that women consistently find beards more attractive.

401
00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:58,360
Speaker 1: The prevalence of preferences for beards among heterosexual women tends

402
00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:02,239
Speaker 1: to be dependent on a lot factors on social context like.

403
00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:04,480
Speaker 1: For example, one thing I recall reading at some point

404
00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:08,919
Speaker 1: UM was that average female preferences for facial hair and

405
00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:11,879
Speaker 1: men tend to follow what's known as a negative frequency

406
00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:16,520
Speaker 1: dependence model, so that basically, if if your society has

407
00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:20,120
Speaker 1: more people with beards, more people will find clean shaven

408
00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:23,400
Speaker 1: men attractive, and if more people are clean shaven, more

409
00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:27,520
Speaker 1: people will find bearded men attractive. So it's just whatever

410
00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:31,159
Speaker 1: is less common but within reason though, right, because you

411
00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:33,760
Speaker 1: don't want to be too much of an outlier. Um,

412
00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:38,160
Speaker 1: we can all imagine various facial hair choices that are

413
00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:42,720
Speaker 1: either you know, just's just too problematic or just too strange.

414
00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:45,000
Speaker 1: Like if you're just going to decide to grow like

415
00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:49,280
Speaker 1: U two uh, like two globs of hair on either side,

416
00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:51,760
Speaker 1: on either cheek, you know, one cut in the shape

417
00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:54,000
Speaker 1: of the planet Saturn and the other cutting the shape

418
00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:56,919
Speaker 1: of of Jupiter like that would that would be kind

419
00:22:56,920 --> 00:22:58,439
Speaker 1: of strange. I don't know if anyone would really go

420
00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:01,760
Speaker 1: for that, Robert, I'm finding you incredibly closed minded about

421
00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:05,359
Speaker 1: cosmic beard sculpting. But anyway, okay, So it's it seems

422
00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:10,080
Speaker 1: like maybe maybe sexual attraction is not the best signaling hypothesis.

423
00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:15,560
Speaker 1: Another possibility is that beards evolved for intra sexual competition

424
00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:18,480
Speaker 1: among males. Maybe they're supposed to make you look more

425
00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:23,760
Speaker 1: formidable and dominant and encourage respect and deference. So they're

426
00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:26,760
Speaker 1: they're supposed to encourage people to think, you know, I

427
00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:28,920
Speaker 1: am no mere boy. Look at my beard. I am

428
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:31,879
Speaker 1: a wise and powerful, full grown man. Listen to me.

429
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:35,480
Speaker 1: But it's still an open question. People don't know why

430
00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:40,879
Speaker 1: beards evolved. But this research from argues as follows. They say, quote,

431
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:44,879
Speaker 1: we hypothesize that beards protect the skin and bones of

432
00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:48,880
Speaker 1: the face when human males fight by absorbing and dispersing

433
00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:53,399
Speaker 1: the energy of a blunt impact. Um. So okay. So

434
00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:56,520
Speaker 1: the points the authors make are uh. They say, you know,

435
00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:59,360
Speaker 1: there are other cases where hair appears to serve some

436
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:03,880
Speaker 1: kind of defensive function. Uh. For example, the long hair

437
00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:07,639
Speaker 1: of Alliance, Maine is sometimes thought by biologists who have

438
00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:10,760
Speaker 1: evolved to protect vulnerable spots like the throat and the

439
00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:15,320
Speaker 1: jaw from damage during violent encounters. Um. And they point

440
00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:18,800
Speaker 1: out quote the mandible meaning the jaw. The lower jaw,

441
00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:22,159
Speaker 1: which is superficially covered by the beard, is one of

442
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:26,640
Speaker 1: the most commonly fractured facial bones in interpersonal violence. So

443
00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:29,239
Speaker 1: they went on to perform some physical tests. They ran

444
00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:32,280
Speaker 1: tests to simulate the extent to which a beard would

445
00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:36,240
Speaker 1: protect a jaw from blunt trauma. And so they described

446
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:40,200
Speaker 1: their method as follows. Quote, we tested this hypothesis by

447
00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:44,760
Speaker 1: measuring impact force and energy absorbed by a fiber epoxy

448
00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:48,720
Speaker 1: composite which served as a bone analog when it was

449
00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:52,000
Speaker 1: covered with skin that had thick hair referred to here

450
00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:56,160
Speaker 1: as furred, versus skin with no hair referred to here

451
00:24:56,240 --> 00:25:00,080
Speaker 1: as sheared and plucked. We covered the epoxy compile as

452
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:03,760
Speaker 1: it with segments of skin dissected from domestic sheep and

453
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:07,000
Speaker 1: used a drop weight impact tester affixed with a load

454
00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:11,080
Speaker 1: cell to collect force versus time data. Tissue samples were

455
00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:15,840
Speaker 1: prepared in three conditions, furred, plucked, and sheared. Okay, so

456
00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:18,359
Speaker 1: they do this experiment and what do they find? Well,

457
00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:21,840
Speaker 1: in fact, they find that simulated jaws covered in fur

458
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:25,720
Speaker 1: were indeed able to absorb more energy than the ones

459
00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:29,000
Speaker 1: that were plucked or sheared. They say that peak force

460
00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:33,560
Speaker 1: was six greater in the plucked versus the furred conditions,

461
00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:37,200
Speaker 1: and total force was thirty seven percent greater. So what's

462
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:39,960
Speaker 1: the difference there, Well, they say that fur provides some

463
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:43,439
Speaker 1: degree of padding, it increases the time over which the

464
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:47,480
Speaker 1: blow is absorbed, and finally they say quote these data

465
00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:51,480
Speaker 1: support the hypothesis that human beards protect vulnerable regions of

466
00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:56,160
Speaker 1: the facial skeleton from damaging strikes. So I feel like, uh,

467
00:25:56,720 --> 00:25:59,880
Speaker 1: I thought this was this was interesting. I'm still kind

468
00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:04,360
Speaker 1: of doubtful about the overall theory, um, just for example,

469
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:06,560
Speaker 1: using my analogy from earlier. And by the way, I

470
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:08,800
Speaker 1: mean the researchers are aware of this, you know. They

471
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:11,280
Speaker 1: say like that many of these traits could have evolved

472
00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:13,879
Speaker 1: for other reasons, but they're trying to build a cumulative

473
00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:18,119
Speaker 1: case that sees fist fighting and male physical aggression as

474
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:23,080
Speaker 1: a major factor shaping human morphology. So I guess I

475
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:25,560
Speaker 1: have some doubts that it it's as big as they

476
00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:28,399
Speaker 1: might be suggesting, But I don't know. Um. But to

477
00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:31,080
Speaker 1: use the analogy from earlier, it could be true that

478
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:34,879
Speaker 1: a beard makes it slightly easier to absorb punches to

479
00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:37,040
Speaker 1: the jaw, And it looks like, based on their experiment,

480
00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:39,800
Speaker 1: that probably is to to some degree true at least

481
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:43,280
Speaker 1: slightly true. And yet that still wouldn't necessarily prove that

482
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:46,480
Speaker 1: the need to shield against punches to the jaw is

483
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:50,639
Speaker 1: the primary reason our species has beards. This would be

484
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:53,439
Speaker 1: an interesting one to hear from our our various martial

485
00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:57,679
Speaker 1: arts listeners about because the direction my mind goes in

486
00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:00,320
Speaker 1: on this and I instantly think about, uh, though the

487
00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:03,080
Speaker 1: world of like mixed martial arts, which today is like

488
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:07,800
Speaker 1: this this highly um uh you know, it's it's a

489
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:10,240
Speaker 1: it's a top you know sport. It's it's a situation

490
00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:15,000
Speaker 1: where people devote their lives to reaching like peak uh skill,

491
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:19,159
Speaker 1: peak conditioning, and it becomes like, um, you know, it

492
00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 1: comes a game of degrees, right, like what what whatever?

493
00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:23,960
Speaker 1: You know, little thing you can do to give you

494
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:26,720
Speaker 1: an edge. It seems like you would do that thing,

495
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:30,600
Speaker 1: including grow a beard. Uh. And yet when you look

496
00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:34,119
Speaker 1: at at mixed martial artists, yes, some have beards, some

497
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:37,280
Speaker 1: have have I guess pretty robust beards, but you don't

498
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:41,120
Speaker 1: see like a universal shift to beards like you might

499
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 1: see and say, uh, you know certain evolutionaries situations, but

500
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:48,679
Speaker 1: also in certain warfare situations where there's some sort of

501
00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:51,880
Speaker 1: a design, uh, some sort of an adaptation that gives

502
00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:55,919
Speaker 1: a clear advantage and then it becomes ubiquitous suddenly everyone

503
00:27:55,960 --> 00:28:00,639
Speaker 1: who can adopt it does. Yeah. So that's where my

504
00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:02,600
Speaker 1: main question would be. But but then again I have

505
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:05,600
Speaker 1: to remind myself that by virtue of being this kind

506
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:12,480
Speaker 1: of over engineered interpersonal combat sport, perhaps like it's gone

507
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:16,080
Speaker 1: beyond the level at which a beard could be at

508
00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:19,439
Speaker 1: all helpful, Like it just doesn't matter. Maybe like maybe

509
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 1: like a beard adaptation. Evolutionarily, you're dealing with with something

510
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:27,000
Speaker 1: less than you know, a punch that or or a

511
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:29,399
Speaker 1: kick or what have you that has like, uh, you know,

512
00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 1: decades of training behind it aimed at just this one thing. Yeah.

513
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:36,880
Speaker 1: Another thing that I'm just curious about is is there

514
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:40,400
Speaker 1: any kind of evidence that if you actually go back

515
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:43,560
Speaker 1: a million years or so, that our ancestors would have

516
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 1: been practicing a lot of consistent closed fist punching or

517
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:53,360
Speaker 1: is that a more modern convention of human culture. Yeah,

518
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 1: And then once you start using weapons, um, you know,

519
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:00,200
Speaker 1: I think you you quickly reach a point where are

520
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 1: the technology vastly outweighs any kind of natural armoring we

521
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:08,840
Speaker 1: might have via beards. You know, once you get to

522
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:11,400
Speaker 1: like the level of the mace like we discussed before,

523
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:14,320
Speaker 1: I mean, that's just instant skull putting. Unless there's some

524
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:17,560
Speaker 1: sort of a helmet involved. It doesn't matter what kind

525
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:20,000
Speaker 1: of hair you have or what kind of beards you're packing.

526
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 1: But I guess the counter argument there is, once you're

527
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:26,200
Speaker 1: to the point where you have maces, um, any kind

528
00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:29,920
Speaker 1: of selection that would have been involved, would have already

529
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:32,760
Speaker 1: taken place. So yeah, of course that'd be among anatomically

530
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:35,640
Speaker 1: modern humans. Yeah. Well, anyway, though, I do want to

531
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:37,920
Speaker 1: come back and say, despite the fact that I am,

532
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:41,800
Speaker 1: I still feel some some pretty strong doubts and skepticism

533
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:46,240
Speaker 1: about the fist punch theory. Overall, I do appreciate the

534
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:50,000
Speaker 1: research because, of course it's always good to explore alternative explanations,

535
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:52,040
Speaker 1: and maybe they will pay out. Maybe a lot of

536
00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:56,040
Speaker 1: more research will pile up in these columns, um and uh.

537
00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:58,800
Speaker 1: And then of course also the actual physical findings of

538
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:01,880
Speaker 1: the experiment, like show the force absorbing properties of hair

539
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:05,840
Speaker 1: or fur, could be useful to future researchers, even if

540
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:09,560
Speaker 1: the fist punch hypothesis itself eventually turns out to be

541
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:18,480
Speaker 1: universally ruled incorrect. Absolutely, thank you, thank you, thank you.

542
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:21,760
Speaker 1: All right for our final selection here, I thought we

543
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 1: might talk about the winner of the Transportation Prize, and

544
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:32,280
Speaker 1: this went to Robin Radcliffe at All for determining by experiment,

545
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:37,880
Speaker 1: whether it is safer to transport an airborne rhinoceros upside down. Okay,

546
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:40,560
Speaker 1: this is a good one. Yeah, yeah, this this was

547
00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:44,480
Speaker 1: so this one puzzled me at first, because yes, there's

548
00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:47,760
Speaker 1: something about an upside down rhino suspended from a helicopter

549
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 1: that is initially funny. But then I struggled to explain

550
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:53,760
Speaker 1: why it was initially funny. I guess it's just maybe

551
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:56,800
Speaker 1: because the rhino is such a grounded animal and the

552
00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:00,120
Speaker 1: idea of it being upside down in the sky is

553
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:03,760
Speaker 1: is is worth a giggle, I guess though, So just

554
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:06,320
Speaker 1: to go ahead and get this part out there, like

555
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:12,600
Speaker 1: this concerns conservation efforts in Namibia, in Africa UM and

556
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:19,640
Speaker 1: the reason the various researchers were tied to Namibia, South Africa, Tanzania, Zimbabwe, Brazil,

557
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:23,200
Speaker 1: the UK and the USA UM and it has to

558
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:30,080
Speaker 1: do quite simply with moving, with translocation, moving one rhinoceros

559
00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:32,880
Speaker 1: from here to there, from one point to another. How

560
00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:34,960
Speaker 1: do you do that? And what is the best way

561
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:38,040
Speaker 1: to do that, not only for the humans doing the moving,

562
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:41,920
Speaker 1: but also the technology involved and the animal itself. What

563
00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 1: is the least stressful method of carrying this out? Okay,

564
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:48,920
Speaker 1: so is somebody with no expertise at all in this area.

565
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 1: My mind immediately goes to scenes from Jurassic Park where

566
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:58,080
Speaker 1: they're transporting dinosaurs in what looked like giant, giant metal

567
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:01,640
Speaker 1: shoe boxes with their holes in the right and uh.

568
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:05,080
Speaker 1: And apparently that used to be the way. That was

569
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:08,600
Speaker 1: just how you moved a large animal like a rhino around.

570
00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:11,160
Speaker 1: You would trink it and then as it woke up,

571
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:14,480
Speaker 1: you would groggy lee sort of push it into a crate,

572
00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:16,800
Speaker 1: and then you would close up the crate and then

573
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:21,000
Speaker 1: you could transport that crate generally by truck uh to

574
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:22,920
Speaker 1: wherever you needed to take it. But you could of

575
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:26,320
Speaker 1: course also air to lift that crate um via helicopter

576
00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:29,720
Speaker 1: or something, you know, loaded into a cargo plane something

577
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:34,040
Speaker 1: of that nature. Okay, So the paper here in question,

578
00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:38,280
Speaker 1: it was titled the Pulmonary and metabolic effects of suspension

579
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 1: by the feet compared with lateral recumbency in immobilized black

580
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:47,120
Speaker 1: Rhinoceros captured by aerial darting um and this came out

581
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 1: in the Journal of wild Life Diseases. Now, the paper

582
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:55,240
Speaker 1: itself here is pretty technical, getting into you know, a lot. Basically,

583
00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:58,600
Speaker 1: it focuses a lot on the breathing of the rhinoceros.

584
00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:01,040
Speaker 1: But I found a lot of wonderful clarity on the

585
00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:06,920
Speaker 1: topic in a Manga Bay article by Malavica via Waharre

586
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:11,320
Speaker 1: in which the author interviews Robin Radcliffe, UM, the lead

587
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:14,160
Speaker 1: author and one of the key researchers involved in this

588
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:17,720
Speaker 1: award winning paper. So essentially what happened is the researchers

589
00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:21,239
Speaker 1: were asked to weigh in on a new practice of

590
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:26,200
Speaker 1: translocating rhinos that was being pioneered by UM animal relocation

591
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:31,360
Speaker 1: efforts in Namibia and Cornell University veterinarian Robin Radcliffe is

592
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:34,600
Speaker 1: rhino expert, so he's exactly the right person to bring

593
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 1: in on this question. So, uh, like we we just mentioned, Yeah,

594
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:41,800
Speaker 1: the crate was the the old way of doing it,

595
00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:44,120
Speaker 1: and uh, interestingly enough, I was looking for pictures of

596
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:46,840
Speaker 1: rhinos and crates and one of the top things that

597
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:51,040
Speaker 1: came up was a matchbox toy set that features a

598
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:54,920
Speaker 1: toy rhino, a toy crate, and then a helicopter for

599
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 1: lifting said crate off the ground. The way does the

600
00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:00,480
Speaker 1: helicopter powered? Uh no, I think it's just like a

601
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:03,920
Speaker 1: matchbox thing. But you know this is the use your imagination.

602
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:06,680
Speaker 1: It looks it's a fun kid. You know, it's not

603
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:10,560
Speaker 1: a matchbox kid. I'm just only you know, in my household.

604
00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:13,520
Speaker 1: So my son is not super into vehicles, but like,

605
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:16,840
Speaker 1: this toy tells a story. Here's the helicopter, here's the

606
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:21,040
Speaker 1: here's the the crate. Here is the rhino. Fly the

607
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:26,000
Speaker 1: rhino to safety, says the matchbox label. Wait, Rob, I

608
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:29,799
Speaker 1: think maybe the blades do spin. It looks like it's

609
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:32,520
Speaker 1: got a handle on the top of the rotor, and

610
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:34,560
Speaker 1: I think it's one of those where you can like

611
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:37,960
Speaker 1: spin it by manual force. Either maybe you spin it

612
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:39,919
Speaker 1: with just by spinning it with your hand, or you

613
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:42,279
Speaker 1: you you pull a cord or something. Okay, yeah, it

614
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:44,080
Speaker 1: looks like you do get some spinning action. It's not

615
00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 1: gonna fly by itself. It's not a drune but um,

616
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:50,360
Speaker 1: but it does look fun. Um. But I think the

617
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:53,640
Speaker 1: toy here relays some of the challenges involved in this method.

618
00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:55,120
Speaker 1: And so you know, you look at it. Okay, you

619
00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 1: have a huge helicopter or you know, you can imagine

620
00:34:58,040 --> 00:34:59,600
Speaker 1: if it was just using a truck. You still need

621
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:02,839
Speaker 1: a pretty sizeable truck. It's a pretty huge crate, it's

622
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:05,560
Speaker 1: a pretty huge animal. Uh. And if you're transporting the

623
00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:08,279
Speaker 1: rhino by truck, then you need roads to take you

624
00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:11,480
Speaker 1: where you're going. And if you're going by helicopter. Well,

625
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:13,799
Speaker 1: you've got to transport this big grate out there to

626
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:17,719
Speaker 1: the location where you're acquiring the animal, and you're gonna

627
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:21,120
Speaker 1: need a secondary, smaller copter to trink the rhino and

628
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:25,359
Speaker 1: carry the capture team. So so it's a big operation. Yeah,

629
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:28,600
Speaker 1: big operation any way to shake it. But wildlife teams

630
00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:31,720
Speaker 1: in the video were interested in trying some different methods.

631
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:35,239
Speaker 1: They were interested in fine tuning the chopper tactic as

632
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:40,319
Speaker 1: well as expediting the whole process. Uh and uh. You

633
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:42,839
Speaker 1: know one of the key advantages again if of using

634
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:44,799
Speaker 1: a helicopter is it it allows you to move the

635
00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:48,040
Speaker 1: animal to more remote locations and to do so in

636
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:52,520
Speaker 1: a faster manner. Um, you don't have to worry about

637
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:54,480
Speaker 1: what can a road take me there? And do I

638
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:56,400
Speaker 1: have to how how far do I have to wind

639
00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:59,520
Speaker 1: around with this? Uh? This this poor rhino in the

640
00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:03,040
Speaker 1: trunk right how bumpy is it? Right now? One of

641
00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:05,440
Speaker 1: the things that that Radcliffe points out, and that has

642
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:09,160
Speaker 1: pointed out in that Manga Bay article, is that translocation

643
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:11,720
Speaker 1: efforts have something of a checkered history in the past,

644
00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:14,239
Speaker 1: and there are a lot of factors to consider, um

645
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:18,560
Speaker 1: and uh. And therefore you could even consider these Namibia

646
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:21,200
Speaker 1: efforts as being kind of a leap of faith, uh

647
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:23,560
Speaker 1: that you know, we've got to do something from a

648
00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:27,120
Speaker 1: conservation standpoint. Let's try and move the animals to a

649
00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:29,279
Speaker 1: more secure location, a place where they can they can

650
00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:33,040
Speaker 1: live and um. But again, there's a lot of stuff

651
00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:35,120
Speaker 1: you have to consider, and this paper deals with one

652
00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:41,400
Speaker 1: of them. Because to streamline the translocation by helicopter, Uh,

653
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:43,080
Speaker 1: one of the big things you can do is dispense

654
00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:45,400
Speaker 1: with that crate and try to get them into the

655
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:48,759
Speaker 1: air while they're still under you know, they're they're still tranquilized.

656
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 1: Let's try and you know, harness them up in something

657
00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:53,839
Speaker 1: carrying them in the sky and make a bee line

658
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:57,399
Speaker 1: for wherever we're going. Um, hopefully as the animal never

659
00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:00,359
Speaker 1: even wakes up. Uh. And you know this gonna make

660
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:02,600
Speaker 1: it easier not only on the animal itself, but also

661
00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:05,640
Speaker 1: on the people that have to do the carrying. Okay,

662
00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:09,600
Speaker 1: makes sense. So one tactic that has been used is

663
00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:13,080
Speaker 1: to force a sledge underneath the animal once it's laying

664
00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:15,200
Speaker 1: on the side, so it's been tranked, it's laying on

665
00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:18,840
Speaker 1: its side, force a sledge underneath its body, then secure

666
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:22,080
Speaker 1: it to the sledge and you airlift that sledge um

667
00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:24,200
Speaker 1: uh you know, up into the air, take it to

668
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:26,879
Speaker 1: another location. I included a photograph of what this looks

669
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:29,879
Speaker 1: like for you, Joe. Okay, this already looks strange enough.

670
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:32,680
Speaker 1: This is a sideways rhino with four feet hanging out

671
00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:36,520
Speaker 1: over the sky. Yep, it looks pretty good, looks stable.

672
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:38,520
Speaker 1: It makes a lot of sense. You see, you see

673
00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:42,200
Speaker 1: exactly how they got there. But but Ratcliffe new from

674
00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:46,120
Speaker 1: previous studies that this position for the rhino increases what's

675
00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:49,880
Speaker 1: known as dead space, the volume of ventilated air that

676
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:53,759
Speaker 1: does not participate in gas exchange. An extended time in

677
00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 1: this position means the animal is getting less out of

678
00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:59,520
Speaker 1: each breath. Okay, so the rhino is not grad at

679
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:04,239
Speaker 1: breathing in this position, right. So this brings us to

680
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:07,080
Speaker 1: this this new idea, this this new way of carrying

681
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:10,560
Speaker 1: the rhino that was being that's been UH was that

682
00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:14,000
Speaker 1: was brought up by Annidian conservationist that they brought in

683
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:18,600
Speaker 1: Radcliff Radcliffe into UH to study. And that is, while

684
00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:21,680
Speaker 1: the the rhino is out, you secure all of its

685
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:24,480
Speaker 1: legs to harness and you lift it up into the

686
00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:28,480
Speaker 1: air in an inverted posture. And carry it that way. Okay,

687
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:31,160
Speaker 1: so we've gone from upright rhino to sideways rhino to

688
00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:34,560
Speaker 1: completely upside down rhino. You're just doing the ninety degree

689
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:41,000
Speaker 1: rotate command repeatedly, right, Um, And you know it's it's

690
00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:44,520
Speaker 1: interesting right because like the rhino normally is standing up

691
00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:46,759
Speaker 1: and it could you know, it's sometimes going to be

692
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:48,920
Speaker 1: on its side, but it's never going to be inverted

693
00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:51,320
Speaker 1: in the natural world. Like this is a new position

694
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:54,799
Speaker 1: for the living rhinoceros. Uh. So that's why they wanted

695
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:58,560
Speaker 1: to study, well what does this do to the rhino's breathing? Um?

696
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:01,120
Speaker 1: Is there anything you know essential that we need to

697
00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:03,359
Speaker 1: know about this before we really roll this out as

698
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:08,520
Speaker 1: our chief means of carrying rhinos from one place to another? Okay,

699
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:12,160
Speaker 1: well I want to know does it work? Um? The

700
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:15,120
Speaker 1: short answer is yes, it does seem to work. Um.

701
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:17,959
Speaker 1: Now there's still it still requires a lot of work.

702
00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:21,160
Speaker 1: That's one thing they really drive home here is that, Um,

703
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:22,960
Speaker 1: you know, you're still gonna have to have that second chopper.

704
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:24,760
Speaker 1: You're still gonna have to have somebody in there to

705
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:27,160
Speaker 1: to drink the rhino. It's gonna involve a whole team.

706
00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:29,960
Speaker 1: So it's not like, we've perfectly streamlined this to to

707
00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:33,440
Speaker 1: something that is not hard. It's still difficult. Um, it's

708
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:38,000
Speaker 1: in it's still a stressful situation. Um. But uh so.

709
00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:40,760
Speaker 1: But Radcliffe was was mainly looking at breathing with the rhino.

710
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:44,320
Speaker 1: Here they used a crane instead of a chopper um,

711
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:47,440
Speaker 1: and their findings, while not final and all inclusive and

712
00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:51,520
Speaker 1: also utilizing a small sample size, they stressed, we're certainly encouraging.

713
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:54,319
Speaker 1: So first of all, you don't encounter that increase of

714
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:58,240
Speaker 1: dead air. In fact, it might actually improve oxygen intake.

715
00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:01,839
Speaker 1: But apparently that's that's an issue where the authors are like, well,

716
00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:03,640
Speaker 1: we didn't have a huge sample size here, so we

717
00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:07,560
Speaker 1: shouldn't put as much emphasis on bad aspect of it. Okay,

718
00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:10,120
Speaker 1: but they at least know that in this small group

719
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:13,880
Speaker 1: of animals, hanging upside down was no worse for breathing

720
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:17,400
Speaker 1: than lying sideways on a sledge, and it might possibly

721
00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:21,719
Speaker 1: improve oxygen saturation a little bit, but that's not clear, right,

722
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:24,400
Speaker 1: that seems to be the case. And secondly, while some

723
00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:28,440
Speaker 1: animals would be worse off being transported in an inverted position,

724
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:31,040
Speaker 1: the rhino does really well. And in fact, here's a

725
00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:34,440
Speaker 1: quote from Vala Bajara's interview with Radcliffe. This is a

726
00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:37,440
Speaker 1: quote from Radcliffe quote. If you look at the anatomy

727
00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:40,640
Speaker 1: of the rhino, it has a very heavy, a very

728
00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:43,879
Speaker 1: large neck and head. When you hang them upside down,

729
00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:47,279
Speaker 1: the head hangs really low. That does two things. It

730
00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:50,560
Speaker 1: straightens out the spine and it also straightens out the airway.

731
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:55,240
Speaker 1: From a strictly anatomical perspective, it's actually an ideal position

732
00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:59,800
Speaker 1: for a rhino to be in. It's an ideal endpoint

733
00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:03,200
Speaker 1: for rhino evolution in in in a million years, the

734
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:06,759
Speaker 1: rhinos will all move around upside down. Yeah, so I

735
00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:10,760
Speaker 1: love that. It's like, not only is the upside down rhino? Um, Okay,

736
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:13,040
Speaker 1: it is? It is in some sense optimal. This is

737
00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:17,080
Speaker 1: optimal rhinoceros. Here, don't some people have contraptions for flipping

738
00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:19,399
Speaker 1: themselves upside down for I have no idea if there's

739
00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:22,520
Speaker 1: anything to this but for some perceived medical benefit or

740
00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:26,080
Speaker 1: physicotherapy at least or something. Yeah, inversions, you you do.

741
00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:27,719
Speaker 1: I feel like this is probably something we'd have to

742
00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:30,640
Speaker 1: come back to in a full episode. But m yeah,

743
00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:32,879
Speaker 1: I think there are some studies about it, and there's

744
00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:36,040
Speaker 1: certainly a lot of claims about it um both uh,

745
00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:39,360
Speaker 1: you know, certainly within like say the yoga community, but

746
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:42,759
Speaker 1: also yeah, you see people who have just advocated being

747
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:46,839
Speaker 1: upside down as a as as an effective life choice.

748
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:49,400
Speaker 1: Not full time, I guess, but no, no, that'd be

749
00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:51,279
Speaker 1: interesting to look into. Maybe maybe we should come back

750
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:54,000
Speaker 1: to that now with the rhinos here there there's more

751
00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:56,359
Speaker 1: work to be done here, uh, such as looking at

752
00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:58,520
Speaker 1: the circulation of the animal, which I don't think was

753
00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:01,919
Speaker 1: really a focal point of this particular study, but still

754
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:04,279
Speaker 1: it's it's insightful and it's an important study into the

755
00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:09,040
Speaker 1: effects of transporting. Uh these animals by Chopper and conservation

756
00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:12,360
Speaker 1: groups are already using the same technique with giant sable

757
00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:16,840
Speaker 1: antelope and with the African elephant. Wow. Yeah, So with

758
00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:20,000
Speaker 1: an upside down rhinoceros, this means when it finally gets

759
00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:22,560
Speaker 1: set down, makes gentle contact with the ground, does it

760
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:25,839
Speaker 1: go horn first? Uh? Well, they have to be very

761
00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:29,680
Speaker 1: gentle setting it down, you know. Then then then you

762
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:32,000
Speaker 1: you don't just drop it. Uh. It's it's like a

763
00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:36,759
Speaker 1: very very careful game of the claw machine, right right.

764
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:40,640
Speaker 1: I should add that another important note about this is

765
00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:43,520
Speaker 1: that you can't just have any helicopter do this, Like

766
00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:45,600
Speaker 1: the rhino is a very heavy animal. So one of

767
00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:48,239
Speaker 1: the things that Raticlo stresses is that, yeah, you still

768
00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:50,520
Speaker 1: need two helicopters. You need the smaller helicopter for the

769
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:54,000
Speaker 1: trank team, but you need a pretty sizeable helicopter to

770
00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:56,640
Speaker 1: actually lift this creature, even if there's no crate involved.

771
00:42:57,000 --> 00:43:00,480
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, but that's not cheap. Okay, here's how to

772
00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:03,120
Speaker 1: make the image funnier the upside down. Right now, sir

773
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:06,200
Speaker 1: is dangling from not a helicopter but a Harrier jet.

774
00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:12,000
Speaker 1: I don't like that idea. That doesn't sound good. Some

775
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:15,680
Speaker 1: kind of vertical takeoff airplane. Yeah that does somehow, that

776
00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:18,600
Speaker 1: doesn't sound like it would work. All right, Well, I

777
00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:22,360
Speaker 1: guess that's it for this episode. Um uh. Like we

778
00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:25,560
Speaker 1: said before, we're not covering all the winners this this year,

779
00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:28,200
Speaker 1: but we just looked at four of them. But if

780
00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:30,120
Speaker 1: you want to find the rest of them, head on

781
00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:33,480
Speaker 1: over to the Ignobile Prizes website. Uh and they have

782
00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:36,239
Speaker 1: a full listing of them, along with links to the

783
00:43:36,239 --> 00:43:40,200
Speaker 1: individual studies. And also there was a webcast of the ceremony.

784
00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:43,360
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, they're usually high jinks of some sort.

785
00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:46,520
Speaker 1: All love to them, but often some kind of cringe

786
00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:50,759
Speaker 1: e humor. All right, well, we're gonna go and close

787
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:52,920
Speaker 1: it out here in the meantime, If you would like

788
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:55,120
Speaker 1: to check out other episodes of Stuff to Blow Your Mind,

789
00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:58,760
Speaker 1: head on over to wherever you get your podcasts, because

790
00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:00,560
Speaker 1: wherever that is you'll find this Have to Blow Your

791
00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:04,799
Speaker 1: Mind podcast feed. We run core episodes of the show

792
00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:09,680
Speaker 1: on Tuesdays and Thursdays, Artifact on Wednesdays, listener mail on Mondays,

793
00:44:09,719 --> 00:44:12,360
Speaker 1: and on Fridays we do a little weird ou cinema.

794
00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:15,560
Speaker 1: That's our time to set aside most serious considerations and

795
00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:18,319
Speaker 1: just focus in on a strange film. Huge thanks as

796
00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:21,680
Speaker 1: always to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If

797
00:44:21,719 --> 00:44:23,279
Speaker 1: you would like to get in touch with us with

798
00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:25,880
Speaker 1: feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest a

799
00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:28,440
Speaker 1: topic for the future, just to say hello, you can

800
00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:31,360
Speaker 1: email us at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind

801
00:44:31,520 --> 00:44:41,440
Speaker 1: dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of

802
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:44,080
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for My Heart Radio,

803
00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:47,160
Speaker 1: visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're

804
00:44:47,160 --> 00:45:04,440
Speaker 1: listening to your favorite shows. Three three Proper Chara