Speaker 1: Look man, oh, I see you? Why why and look
Speaker 1: over there? How is that? Culture? Yeah? Goodness, Dan du
Speaker 1: culture East is calling? Opening thought? Are you excited about?
Speaker 1: Sort of I'm gonna put this on quotes taking seven
Speaker 1: and a half. And when I say that, we sort
Speaker 1: of told our guests we're gonna go for like a
Speaker 1: hard seven and a half up top meeting seven and
Speaker 1: a half minutes of pop culture. And then there we're
Speaker 1: sort of some pithy jokes flying around about being excited,
Speaker 1: like I'll take seven and a half. And then my
Speaker 1: thought I wanted to open with was are we excited
Speaker 1: about seven and a half or is that too big? Go? No,
Speaker 1: I think that's in the goldilocks zone. All right, Really
Speaker 1: you describe to me a dick that was like an
Speaker 1: anytime someone says baby arm, I go, oh, let's reconsider. Well,
Speaker 1: have I ever talked about the time I had text
Speaker 1: with a guy I bottom for a guy that had
Speaker 1: a baby arm and I'm swear to god, my asshole
Speaker 1: made a noise like a Snapple cap was opening. It
Speaker 1: was like, and I also hit, I'm a riya know it.
Speaker 1: I was like, and we laughed and we could not
Speaker 1: keep having sex after that, but that's okay. We had
Speaker 1: sex later, probably about a week and a half later,
Speaker 1: seven and a half. Sure, why did you laugh? Because
Speaker 1: you guys bread a fact off of the cap and
Speaker 1: it was it was, um, did you know that ten
Speaker 1: percent of gate people go on? No, I want to
Speaker 1: know this? Only ten percent? The market's bad. Well, it's
Speaker 1: ten percent of ten percent, it's percent of the world
Speaker 1: is queer. Right, So closing that loop, we're both excited
Speaker 1: about seven and a half. But if it's a baby
Speaker 1: arm and we make a noise like a soft drink,
Speaker 1: you can laugh it off and just get ready for later.
Speaker 1: So sort of that's now, that's a topic that's already
Speaker 1: been discussed on the podcast, and we're leaving it behind.
Speaker 1: Now let's move on to this new thing of how
Speaker 1: many people in the world are queer. It was so
Speaker 1: often said ten percent, but I feel like this this
Speaker 1: number is changing. Well, yeah, I'm knowing, you know what,
Speaker 1: At least in this country, the sense is every ten years,
Speaker 1: So we're gonna have to wait for another seven years
Speaker 1: to figure out what the new status. I have not chucked.
Speaker 1: I just kind of pulled that number out because I
Speaker 1: think that sounds like roughly the right figure. I'm probably wrong.
Speaker 1: Can the census taker ask me how I express myself sexually? No?
Speaker 1: Can they ask me that? Sometimes I go, how do
Speaker 1: these people know? Sometimes I fill out the census and
Speaker 1: they leave saying fag well, I'm sorry. I send back
Speaker 1: the census, going you're not getting anything out of me
Speaker 1: but the bare essentials. Yeah. I opened the door of
Speaker 1: the census taker and I crossed my arms like this, Well,
Speaker 1: go on, go on away, see what you can get
Speaker 1: out of me, bitch. I missed the census takers from
Speaker 1: twenty twenty because we were in the pandemic. We were
Speaker 1: in lockdown and there was no sensus takers. Wow, but
Speaker 1: I remember were there. It's been a while. It's like
Speaker 1: Cannibalector once said. A census taker tried to test me
Speaker 1: once and I said, girl, it's the pandemic. Come back later. Anyway,
Speaker 1: Today is going to be a really fun episode of
Speaker 1: the pot. It's been a really incredible sort of week
Speaker 1: and a half. I have tattoos. Now, congrats? Are you?
Speaker 1: Are you aquaforing? What's Oh? You still have the thing
Speaker 1: on the other one. Well, they told me four days
Speaker 1: we went to an iconic tattoo artist Boonen came and
Speaker 1: I got a little house on my wrist to get
Speaker 1: a matching tattooth house. And I got this twenty two
Speaker 1: on my other risk to denote a powerful year, a
Speaker 1: powerful year and a powerful Taylor's Swift song as well.
Speaker 1: Producer Becca says in the chat they came in twenty twenty,
Speaker 1: but apparently in twenty twenty one they are now asking
Speaker 1: about sexual orientation. Before then, they did not ask sexual
Speaker 1: orientation in the census. Good to know, So we're going
Speaker 1: to find out in nine years. Oh I'm sorry, seven years.
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't want to know who cares, Okay,
Speaker 1: I don't want to know anyone else's. It's not queer to, like, yeah, exactly,
Speaker 1: be known in that way. It's not queer to be
Speaker 1: known in that way. Isn't that such a beautiful Oscar
Speaker 1: wild thought. It's not queer to be known in that way.
Speaker 1: It's queer to be known in that way. Oh my god.
Speaker 1: I went to Queer Britain. This lovely museum in the UK.
Speaker 1: They have Oscar Wilde's prison door. Once in the exhib
Speaker 1: I go, this is this is too sad. I got
Speaker 1: if Waltz could talk anyway. Wait, prison door? Was he
Speaker 1: in prison for homosexuality? They threw him in jail, they did.
Speaker 1: We can't talk about it. It's too sad. Can you imagine? No, Well,
Speaker 1: the mood is horrible now. Now the mood's bad. So
Speaker 1: many queer gay writers from the past suffer terrible face. Yeah,
Speaker 1: bring the mood back up. Frank O'Hara got run over
Speaker 1: by a car and on Fire Island. That's how he died.
Speaker 1: I did not know about that. And to hear about this,
Speaker 1: and I'm so happy we're sort of starting this podcast
Speaker 1: in this way. I did not know he was run
Speaker 1: over on fire in the Fire Island pines. That was awful.
Speaker 1: I think we can not have better guests. I mean,
Speaker 1: as the guests. This is the perfect sort of intro
Speaker 1: lead into our guests. I would say, these are too
Speaker 1: cerebral people, very smart people who are going to have
Speaker 1: a lot to say about this. The Frank O'Hara and
Speaker 1: Oscar Wilde of our generation. Something. Keep them inside, keep
Speaker 1: him inside. I gotta say I was a little um
Speaker 1: not nervous. I just had you stress. It's the good
Speaker 1: kind of stress when you go into a situation. Why, like, oh,
Speaker 1: because of our guests. Yeah, I'm so excited. Here's the thing, genuine, true,
Speaker 1: deep wells of talent. And I mean, if you were
Speaker 1: lucky enough to see their Christmas tour, then you were
Speaker 1: one of the luckiest fuckers in America. I could not
Speaker 1: see them because I was on my own tour, but
Speaker 1: I did sort of run into them iconically in the
Speaker 1: Ronald Reagan airport and we took a powerful queer photo
Speaker 1: that I posted too Grid because I said, this is
Speaker 1: too powerful. It's what Reagan would have wanted. The only
Speaker 1: thing missing was you bow. Then it would have burned
Speaker 1: to the ground. It's like a scene out at the
Speaker 1: Comeback or something. You know, It's like two different queer
Speaker 1: Christmas comedy shows touring at the same time, but meaning
Speaker 1: each there at the airport running into each other. The
Speaker 1: airport is very like curb your enthusiasm to come back.
Speaker 1: I love that. It's like a little like behind the
Speaker 1: scenes of showbiz kind of thing. And that's why I
Speaker 1: brought it right to the grid right right. You know
Speaker 1: them from not just Drag Race, but Drag Race All Stars.
Speaker 1: You know them from a multitude of projects between them
Speaker 1: and if you're lucky enough to be in New York
Speaker 1: right now, you can go see one of them on
Speaker 1: Broadway as Major Mama Morton. We were so lucky to
Speaker 1: be able to go. I was personally blessed to be
Speaker 1: in the front row, which that's I sort of get
Speaker 1: really high and then just buy tickets, and then when
Speaker 1: I show up, I realized, oh, I bought front Row Center,
Speaker 1: Orchestra Center, Orchestra front Row. I was like, okay, I
Speaker 1: was enveloped and it was one of the best things
Speaker 1: I've seen, and I've been seeing everything and I was
Speaker 1: so happy. I went excellent, electrifying. The energy in that
Speaker 1: audience is truly incredible. I've never really seen anything like
Speaker 1: it and brand new, and it's a brand new energy.
Speaker 1: We're going to talk about it, but gosh, you know him,
Speaker 1: you love them, and if you weren't lucky enough to
Speaker 1: see their Christmas special, it is beautifully captured as a
Speaker 1: one hour special that you can see on any streaming
Speaker 1: service you'd like any for rental or purchase any one
Speaker 1: of them, except for the ones that you subscribe to.
Speaker 1: Is that correct. We're so thrilled to have them here.
Speaker 1: It's truly our honor to have banjo mon Hello high high,
Speaker 1: Hi hi hi Hi. Is every introduction that gushing because no,
Speaker 1: say no, I said no, they're not always that gushing
Speaker 1: in every single sense of the term. No. This is
Speaker 1: major and huge. It was love at first sight for
Speaker 1: us with both of you. It's true. It's lovely to
Speaker 1: be here with you. Guys. Wait, I want to who's
Speaker 1: the Larry David in the airport scenario? Oh, I guess
Speaker 1: who was it? Following? I mean, look, whoever's the richest? Yeah,
Speaker 1: who's thet's top Let's get real real about the great
Speaker 1: place to start. Whoever's the most into crypto? That would
Speaker 1: be Ben. I think I just need to point out that. Okay,
Speaker 1: first of all, thank all three of you for coming
Speaker 1: to see Chicago on Broadway. Y'all came at different times,
Speaker 1: so it's nice to have friends peppered throughout the experience.
Speaker 1: Most recently, Bowen came with my middle school boyfriend Dan Lansky,
Speaker 1: the best selling author of The Gilded Razor that is
Speaker 1: written about his youth and overcoming addiction. And he couldn't
Speaker 1: remember a lot of the details of when we dated,
Speaker 1: so I helped him write the chapter that's about me
Speaker 1: cheating on him in middle school? Oh wow, I heard
Speaker 1: there was a really sore did love triangle at which
Speaker 1: Jenks was the vertex of this triangle? Is that correct?
Speaker 1: It was me and two boys named Sam. Wow, true
Speaker 1: middle school strumpet behavior. I've always been a huh. Yeah.
Speaker 1: It continued through life. It's not as if that was
Speaker 1: some sort of childish phase. The childishness was ever thinking
Speaker 1: that I was someone who should be monogamous, and that
Speaker 1: ended at middle school. That's beautiful. And then do you
Speaker 1: feel some sort of cosmic connection to the people named
Speaker 1: Sam or is that just trivial? People named Sam just
Speaker 1: come into my life and stay there. But you have
Speaker 1: remained friends clearly. Yeah, Sam Landsky and I. It's just oh.
Speaker 1: And then the third Sam in question is Sam Rogers.
Speaker 1: I hope he doesn't mind me name in him. But
Speaker 1: I really like bringing up these two. They've both been
Speaker 1: on They weren't on my podcast yet, but they were
Speaker 1: on the thing that predates my podcast, which is a
Speaker 1: digital show I did in the Pandemic called Jinks Calls
Speaker 1: Her Friends, and that's exactly what it was. And I
Speaker 1: called both of these Sam's. And what's really really cool
Speaker 1: is we all met in middle school. We were all queer.
Speaker 1: We were all the same age. Sam Lansky and I
Speaker 1: came out really early. Sam Rogers came out in high school.
Speaker 1: We all said in middle school what we wanted to
Speaker 1: do with our lives, and all three of us do
Speaker 1: exactly what we said we were going to do in
Speaker 1: middle school, including Sam Rogers, who said he wanted to
Speaker 1: be a famous actor and a lawyer. And he was
Speaker 1: in the revival of Westside Story on Broadway. And then
Speaker 1: when he felt like he had had felt his acting oats,
Speaker 1: he retired from acting, went back to school, and now
Speaker 1: he's a lawyer too. And not every love triangle, everyone
Speaker 1: sort of gets what they want, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: really rare for everyone, and I love triangle to like
Speaker 1: leave it and go on to sort of good things.
Speaker 1: You know, you could y'all could have really broken each
Speaker 1: other right there. I know. I think it's queerness. I mean,
Speaker 1: I think if the queer people in my life, like
Speaker 1: Dayla is probably the most type A. I don't even
Speaker 1: she's a monster, but like also she's incredible, Like it's
Speaker 1: she's an incredible monster. She's a deity. She's a wrathful deity.
Speaker 1: She's capable of such incredible things with her personality, and
Speaker 1: it comes, you know, at a cost for everyone involved,
Speaker 1: including her. But queer people just get shit done. I mean,
Speaker 1: look at the four of us. If the four of
Speaker 1: us ever morphed into one person, we'd be the next president.
Speaker 1: I think we can do it as a refracted beam
Speaker 1: of light for people. We can each run for office.
Speaker 1: That's my take. I'm in to it. I mean, is
Speaker 1: there any reason we can't kind of reconfigure things where
Speaker 1: actually our quadruple just is I mean, maybe this is
Speaker 1: becomes one of those successful offshoots of one of Jinx's
Speaker 1: early relationships, and we all go for the presidency together
Speaker 1: as a as a four person ticket, three first husbands,
Speaker 1: and uh you know, we take turn playing. Absolutely there
Speaker 1: are swings and DayLA's sipping from a manifest that ship
Speaker 1: mug and so is just in the air. This was
Speaker 1: It's maybe the cheesiest drink where I've ever owned, but
Speaker 1: it was sent to me by my drag hero of
Speaker 1: our La, Jean Merman, and I'm like, I will always
Speaker 1: drink for it from it forever. It is a great
Speaker 1: gift and it can be powerful. Bead Wong sent me
Speaker 1: a mug. That's my favorite Muggets as the word balls
Speaker 1: on it. I love it. And I don't think you
Speaker 1: can escape cheesiness or corniness if you have text on
Speaker 1: a mug. You just have to embrace the fact that
Speaker 1: it's like, it's silly, it's lovely, it's low steaks. It's
Speaker 1: rule of culture. Mugs can be silly. It's actually a
Speaker 1: rule of culture. Bone. What number was that, fifty seven?
Speaker 1: It was a real culture number, fifty seven. Mugs silly.
Speaker 1: I mean, we're we're drinking coffee, we're having fun already.
Speaker 1: Why not have more fun? Why not say it with me?
Speaker 1: Mat Dragon, Oh my god, exactly. And this is actually
Speaker 1: this mugs first public appearance, so yeah, this is the
Speaker 1: big moment. Told us it's coming out party. Yes, wait,
Speaker 1: Jinx is in New York obviously, mattson La daylor where
Speaker 1: are you joining us from? I'm getting PMW vibe. I'm
Speaker 1: in Los Angeles as well, sort of a beautiful day. Huh.
Speaker 1: It's it's lovely, but I'm in my studio, which is
Speaker 1: a basement, so it's neither here nor there. But yes, well,
Speaker 1: if anytime you want to emerge, hon Knee La is laing,
Speaker 1: I'm ready, Where are we going to the market? How
Speaker 1: fun was the war? Was that the situation of every
Speaker 1: day is incredible and gorgeous. And because we have one
Speaker 1: person that's like, hey, come on, we're gonna make the
Speaker 1: flight and one person who's like, I'm coming, I'm coming,
Speaker 1: I'm coming is Jinx's battle grain. Our tours are a
Speaker 1: lot because we have a huge emotional investment in the show. Right.
Speaker 1: It's not like a show where it's just like you
Speaker 1: get up and do a couple numbers and you know,
Speaker 1: you have a meet and greet and you're girl and
Speaker 1: with the girls backstage. Our show is our baby. It
Speaker 1: is also you know, it's our opus, our annual opus
Speaker 1: that we pour our heart and souls into, you know it.
Speaker 1: Really we put a lot of ourselves into it. So
Speaker 1: how the show goes each night determines how we are
Speaker 1: until the following show. Basically, I have to say more
Speaker 1: than any other year. Year, like you and I didn't
Speaker 1: come off stage like it was. You know, sometimes you
Speaker 1: come off stage and early, oh how did that you
Speaker 1: end up being? What that was to me? And I
Speaker 1: don't think we had a show like that this year.
Speaker 1: It was a good feeling. It was amazing this year,
Speaker 1: being the first year back to touring post pandemic, where
Speaker 1: people started to feel at ease of even being there. Like,
Speaker 1: you know, our tour last year or two years ago
Speaker 1: got canceled at the end of it because everyone got COVID,
Speaker 1: not just us, everyone, you know, it was like another wave,
Speaker 1: so a lot of things went back down, And now
Speaker 1: it's been it feels like we're all starting to actually
Speaker 1: feel over the worst of it. So there is a
Speaker 1: gratitude between performers and audiences right now that is palpable.
Speaker 1: It's like we're all so grateful to be back at it.
Speaker 1: And I think a lot of people have realized what
Speaker 1: aspects of live entertainment they were taking for granted, both
Speaker 1: your performers and audience members. So I have felt it
Speaker 1: through our holiday tour. I felt it this entire run
Speaker 1: of Chicago, like audiences are really really excited to be
Speaker 1: back in the theater, and it's it's just like a
Speaker 1: chicken in an egg thing, because performers are bringing a
Speaker 1: lot of joy to their performance, just happy to be
Speaker 1: back at it, and that makes the audience excited and
Speaker 1: then they excited. We all just love each other because
Speaker 1: none of us got childhoods and the energies was really
Speaker 1: grant and I like, and maybe it is because there
Speaker 1: was the pandemic and I didn't obviously we didn't see anything.
Speaker 1: You kind of take for granted what you didn't see
Speaker 1: before that. Like I kicked myself thinking about how long
Speaker 1: I lived in New York and I didn't see all
Speaker 1: these like incredible shows like all throughout my twenties. You
Speaker 1: can't replicate that experience. And then all of a sudden
Speaker 1: you turned around and so and so's not in the
Speaker 1: show anymore, that show's not available to see anymore. So yeah,
Speaker 1: that's definitely been true for me. I am online on
Speaker 1: Broadway dot Com purchasing. But with the tour, it's like
Speaker 1: I think, because would you say that the tour kind
Speaker 1: of is this fastimily of like your dynamic in real
Speaker 1: life or like then Dayla is like trying to like
Speaker 1: execute on this like holiday special and Jinks is like, well,
Speaker 1: I don't have the same idea of a Christmas special thing.
Speaker 1: And then the new I mean, like but to do
Speaker 1: that every night is I would say, like maybe emotionally
Speaker 1: like like like the boundaries, like like the boundaries move
Speaker 1: a little bit, or are aren't totally defined? Do you
Speaker 1: ever get lost? It's changed a little over the years too,
Speaker 1: because we rewrite the show essentially every year. We always
Speaker 1: are like, oh, let's change one or two things, and
Speaker 1: then it's like ninety percent different. But this did definitely
Speaker 1: reflect I mean, I was the one who was like, Jinks,
Speaker 1: we should do a holiday show, like initially, and we
Speaker 1: sort of talked about this thing, being like, we'll do
Speaker 1: We'll make it really easy, breezy. You know, we used
Speaker 1: to host these drag race like viewing parties. We'll just
Speaker 1: get up there and like, you know, have a few drinks.
Speaker 1: Jinks doesn't drink anymore, but we used to have a
Speaker 1: couple of martinis, like, sing some songs. It'll be very casual,
Speaker 1: and then I sort of Jinks. I may be misremembering this,
Speaker 1: but I think this is an accurate representation of our
Speaker 1: dynamic that I was like, no, actually, scratch that. We're
Speaker 1: scripting an entire thing, and so it is very much
Speaker 1: The character is very much a reflection of that. And
Speaker 1: I am always sort of in real life, I'm not
Speaker 1: dragging Jinks through anything because she's exceptionally game. But I
Speaker 1: also think that, you know, we've had this character dynamic
Speaker 1: where we're really adversarial, and this year was the first
Speaker 1: year where we were like, with this show, we're starting
Speaker 1: to develop more of a buddy comedy thing where we're
Speaker 1: like on an adventure together. Yeah, because I think it
Speaker 1: was feeling. I think it's just our relationship change. The
Speaker 1: show is changing with it. Yeah, but you know what,
Speaker 1: like the first instinct for a queer duo to play
Speaker 1: an adversarial dynamic, I think is like something that a
Speaker 1: lot of people can identify with. I think Bowen and
Speaker 1: I for sure a lot of our early work is
Speaker 1: us being like super adversarial, and I think there is
Speaker 1: an instinct to want to like stand across from each other,
Speaker 1: like arms at the hips, like what do you have
Speaker 1: to say to me? Because it harkens back to like
Speaker 1: a dynasty soap opera type situation of like let me
Speaker 1: best you and it. But it is inherently playful. But yeah,
Speaker 1: sometimes it can feel like maybe sometimes it gets a
Speaker 1: little real. Well, you know, one thing that I've kind
Speaker 1: of been becoming much more aware of, and this is
Speaker 1: one of the few things that can thank Ryan Murphy
Speaker 1: unabashedly four is Hude, Betty and Joan really taught me
Speaker 1: how toxic it is to pit people against each other
Speaker 1: when they otherwise wouldn't have been, you know, like and
Speaker 1: I think, you know, it's so funny you're talking about
Speaker 1: you and bowen Dale and I had that. My music
Speaker 1: partner and I have always had we're two people at odds.
Speaker 1: My comedy partner, Nick Sejoya. Our early work was all
Speaker 1: about hating each other. Yeah, So I do think they're
Speaker 1: that's built into just being because when there's a scarcity
Speaker 1: of opportunities for people, then you know, when you think
Speaker 1: of females in this industry being so disenfranchised, and then
Speaker 1: queer people in this industry being disenfranchised. For much of
Speaker 1: the history, of course, we get pitted against each other
Speaker 1: because we're being told there's only one spot for us.
Speaker 1: And what we're finding out these days is no, let's
Speaker 1: claim a lot more space. Rather than fighting over the
Speaker 1: one spot, let's demand two spots and Dayalen I just
Speaker 1: kind of naturally over the years, have shifted from writing
Speaker 1: kind of like adversarial variety shows to This year was
Speaker 1: the first year we wrote a play with a buddy
Speaker 1: film kind of motif to it, and I think that's
Speaker 1: the direction we're heading, because it was really rewarding to
Speaker 1: say this year we are writing a drag variety show
Speaker 1: and we're writing a three act play. Done, that's what
Speaker 1: we're doing. I think we also write like we have
Speaker 1: different touchstones now as queer people for like femininity and culture, right,
Speaker 1: Like all about Eve is sort of how we grew up,
Speaker 1: and now we have like Abby and Illana, you know,
Speaker 1: we like there's a different shift in how women in
Speaker 1: media are sort of no longer being presented as pitted
Speaker 1: against each other in the way that they were at
Speaker 1: a different time. Yeah, it's less like I'm looking hot today,
Speaker 1: isn't it? And it's more like you're looking hot today?
Speaker 1: You know. Of such an amazing shift, and it's cool
Speaker 1: to see that expand into the world of drag, which
Speaker 1: is historically had Yeah, totally. But I think this is
Speaker 1: all leading to both of you doing at some point
Speaker 1: like whatever happened to Baby Jane type. We are so
Speaker 1: perfectly already those market types. It's so already the like
Speaker 1: bleeding heart martyr and the wheelchair and I'm so already
Speaker 1: the bitter old vaudeville clown in our shadowy Castle. Um wow. Yeah,
Speaker 1: in the spirit of claiming space and celebrating one another
Speaker 1: rather than being adversarial. I just want to take a
Speaker 1: moment to gush over the two of you. No need,
Speaker 1: no need, no I need to. I know Matt showed
Speaker 1: off his tattoo with the twenty two significant air I
Speaker 1: have to imagine that in cludes I love that for you.
Speaker 1: That show is so good and you are so good
Speaker 1: in it. It's incredible, It's incredible. I'm so happy you
Speaker 1: both enjoyed that, like the funniest, coolest people enjoyed. I
Speaker 1: think that was the first thing that tumbled out of
Speaker 1: our mouth when we saw you in the airport that
Speaker 1: day too. I feel like we yeah, bowen to see
Speaker 1: you kill it on SNL is just so significant. I mean,
Speaker 1: like SNL is an institution, and I'm so glad they
Speaker 1: finally are realizing that clear people be funny too. But
Speaker 1: you are doing such wonderful stuff on that show and
Speaker 1: so unapologetically for such a large broad audience, and that
Speaker 1: is so important for our community. That means so much.
Speaker 1: Thank you. If you have a flamboyant inanimate object journey
Speaker 1: is I gotta say, I think I have to like
Speaker 1: put a period on it because I love it because
Speaker 1: it opens up you know. I think we learned this
Speaker 1: bow and like bone and I used to be a
Speaker 1: part of this children's theater performance collective called Story Pirates,
Speaker 1: and kids would write stories and you would perform as
Speaker 1: these things that they wrote. You would you would routinely pencil.
Speaker 1: And I'm going through a divorce. I have to find
Speaker 1: a way to get this document to my husband, who's
Speaker 1: a mug, yeah, comfy mug. And it's just like I
Speaker 1: remember when that was happening. It opened up the possibility
Speaker 1: for what you could play. And so I do think
Speaker 1: it's fucking fun that Bowen like plays these things because
Speaker 1: it's I'm very queer too. I love it. Oh no, certainly, certainly.
Speaker 1: I think I'm still figuring out where I'm landing with this,
Speaker 1: because it's that thing where like if you do comedy,
Speaker 1: at some point you're like, oh, when does your act
Speaker 1: become your enemy? You're like, when does this? But maybe
Speaker 1: that's my own fucking weird pathology, because you guys all
Speaker 1: find ways to make things interesting because you is are
Speaker 1: literally doing a show on a recurring basis and are
Speaker 1: having to iterate on it repeatedly and making it interesting
Speaker 1: so that you like fall back in love with it,
Speaker 1: and I just need to. Like with SNL it's like
Speaker 1: it's hard to fall back in love with the thing
Speaker 1: because all that's crystallized is what's on tape. And if
Speaker 1: you do want to read this that it it has
Speaker 1: to like in some way outdo the last showing of it.
Speaker 1: And so that's why it's right. It's a different relationship maybe,
Speaker 1: but that means a lot coming from both of you,
Speaker 1: because I think between the two of you, it's five
Speaker 1: or five the top Snatch game performances ever Paul and
Speaker 1: Maggie Smith, Judy Garland, to Touch Leone and Liliedi those
Speaker 1: are in the top five period between two people. Amazing
Speaker 1: you guys, and everything overlapped seasons. Like I think that
Speaker 1: is It's this wonderful thing that I think is so
Speaker 1: cool about some duos now, where it's like you see
Speaker 1: these two people who are individually phenomenal and then to
Speaker 1: see them sort of like force multiply each other is
Speaker 1: just really awesome. Well, I'll let day La talk on
Speaker 1: it because she'll be more concise than I will. But
Speaker 1: I think my best work is in partnership, like across
Speaker 1: the board, like I. I perform solo when I have to,
Speaker 1: but all of my best work is in collaboration. I agree,
Speaker 1: I feel the same. I feel the same way. I've
Speaker 1: been told I'm supposed to speak on this side. I
Speaker 1: just I was volleying it to you. I was setting
Speaker 1: up a topic. But what's the topic that I can't
Speaker 1: live without you? No collaboration solo? Strange? Oh yeah, because
Speaker 1: Dayla was working solo, you know, and continues to work solo.
Speaker 1: When I work solo, it's actually with my music partner.
Speaker 1: We've always joked that my solo shows are actually two people.
Speaker 1: We just call it my solo show. But Dala's solo
Speaker 1: shows it's her on stage, and if she's with a
Speaker 1: scene partner, it's a puppet that she's also operating so
Speaker 1: and in until she can get her hand up there
Speaker 1: and move my mouth for me, which I'm working on
Speaker 1: and so. But you know, and it's true that when
Speaker 1: I'm doing my solo projects that I am the only
Speaker 1: person on stage, but I do collaborate with a lot
Speaker 1: of people in process, so it's still the result of
Speaker 1: multiple voices, which I think is particularly important when you're
Speaker 1: been at it for this long and like you were saying,
Speaker 1: bowen when you are. I mean, we've been doing the
Speaker 1: same characters for right and in order to keep that
Speaker 1: interesting both for us and I think an audience, It's
Speaker 1: like we've constantly had to discover new depths and new
Speaker 1: angles to that, which I think is really cool to
Speaker 1: be able to take these I'm constantly discovering new depths,
Speaker 1: as do you remember the wedge? Is that still a thing?
Speaker 1: The sex I saw a lot of ads for that
Speaker 1: sex with I don't know angles, but um, like something
Speaker 1: you wedge in there to sort of, you know, just oh,
Speaker 1: that's great, I can use that. Yeah, yeah, well check
Speaker 1: it out. It's called the wedge or something googling. But
Speaker 1: what the hell was I talking about new depths and
Speaker 1: new angles? But I do think that it's fun that
Speaker 1: Jinx and I have these very like cartoonish over sort
Speaker 1: of exaggerated characters. But we've gotten to find ways within
Speaker 1: like our work with each other, we get to find
Speaker 1: ways to like play more of the humanity of them
Speaker 1: underneath that, which I think has been really important in
Speaker 1: terms of the longevity of this project is that every year,
Speaker 1: I think we dive further into that and people have
Speaker 1: even more of a strong emotional connection to it. And
Speaker 1: so what I'm what I'm saying is I think you
Speaker 1: have to spend more time as a weather balloon in order, Yes,
Speaker 1: because they're just gonna keep coming. They're just gonna they
Speaker 1: really are. It's like there's so many of them, you
Speaker 1: could do them with different accents. Bo's love that they
Speaker 1: look big. You know. I wanted to ask about, like
Speaker 1: specifically the characters of Jinks Monsoon and Bende la Creme,
Speaker 1: because when you both came into drag Race, I would
Speaker 1: say that these were both highly characterized personas that you had,
Speaker 1: you know, Jinks Monsoon with the lifted arm and the
Speaker 1: sort of swimsuit like we got what it was immediately,
Speaker 1: and then Bende la Creme. You know, that's sort of
Speaker 1: like pin up vibe that you were playing. I wonder
Speaker 1: how much did drag Race challenge you, How did literally
Speaker 1: the drag Race of it all challenge you to find
Speaker 1: new depths and new angles in those characters, as it were,
Speaker 1: because it feels like that's something that they say, It's like, well,
Speaker 1: we want to know you the vulnerability, and it's it
Speaker 1: is the vulnerability. You know what I'm saying, it's a
Speaker 1: devilish sword, because I think both positive and difficult things
Speaker 1: came out of that breaking down the wall of the
Speaker 1: character and seeing the artist inside. And after season five,
Speaker 1: I felt like people would come to my shows expecting
Speaker 1: to see Jinks the artist, you know, the water off
Speaker 1: a duck's back, you know, sensitive soul, and Jinks the
Speaker 1: character is an narcissistic, pessimistic, nihilistic, milfy bit righte. And
Speaker 1: so people would come to my shows and be kind
Speaker 1: of shocked at what my material is versus who they
Speaker 1: thought they were going to meet that night. And so
Speaker 1: I kind of spent a while between season five and
Speaker 1: All Stars seven reintroducing the character to my audiences so
Speaker 1: that they could tell the difference. And it took I mean, like,
Speaker 1: that's why I'm kind of glad At seven happened when
Speaker 1: it did, because after a decade, and especially after teaming
Speaker 1: up with Dayla and getting our show seen by so
Speaker 1: many more people, because when we combine our powers, our
Speaker 1: reach is like incredible. So it's just it's like, by
Speaker 1: season seven, I had a very clear idea of who
Speaker 1: Jinks the character was, so did my audience and I
Speaker 1: spent season seven using that as a way to reintroduce
Speaker 1: the character. And now when people come to my show,
Speaker 1: they know exactly what the fuck they're gonna get, and
Speaker 1: that is such a boon to me because it means
Speaker 1: I get to start from the plateau of people get it.
Speaker 1: I don't have to introduce as much to them in
Speaker 1: all of my shows. I get to start from a
Speaker 1: place of mutual understanding, all right, right, which is such
Speaker 1: an old school way to approach drag that we do
Speaker 1: where there's really like one character at the heart of it,
Speaker 1: and that's not every drug, which is great, right, Like
Speaker 1: we have drag queens with a lot of different skill sets,
Speaker 1: but it's a real challenge when it goes into a
Speaker 1: reality TV format and you're supposed to like cry about
Speaker 1: your dead mom or whatever while you're putting on makeup,
Speaker 1: and it's she can say that her mom's dead, yeah,
Speaker 1: just this morning. Actually it was rough, but the right.
Speaker 1: But the thing is that we have these amazing, larger
Speaker 1: than life characters, and so I imagine this was very
Speaker 1: intentional going into season six that I had the benefit
Speaker 1: of Jinks just being on five, and so I got
Speaker 1: to like learn from some of her experiences, so I knew, Okay,
Speaker 1: I have to let people know what they're going to
Speaker 1: see when they come on stage. The backfire when I
Speaker 1: come on stage, they're not going on stage and not interactive.
Speaker 1: The backfire aspect of that is that if your character
Speaker 1: has is cartoony and sort of over the top, but
Speaker 1: has any sort of new then that does not know.
Speaker 1: Nuance comes apart across on reality people. I'm sort of
Speaker 1: all the time like, oh my god, she's so positive
Speaker 1: and sweet, and I'm like, but when I use her
Speaker 1: on stage, it's basically a criticis like, it's a critique
Speaker 1: of that outlook total. Yes. Yes, So that was a
Speaker 1: little weird, and then all stars I like went in
Speaker 1: and it was just like, Okay, well, now I'm gonna
Speaker 1: show that I am capable of playing a lot more
Speaker 1: characters because I also do that. On sh she run
Speaker 1: in like a sniper. Truly, she went in like a
Speaker 1: over ops highly trained assassin. Yes, I don't know why
Speaker 1: I'm making it violent. It was like like if mister
Speaker 1: Bean got hired as an assassin and just course accidentally
Speaker 1: shooting the right person. Yeah, but I think Ben's run
Speaker 1: on drag Race is really remarkable because there was such
Speaker 1: a clear threshold between the persona and drag and the
Speaker 1: confessional workroom, real grounded Ben, you know, like that was
Speaker 1: what always sort of struck me. What I was that,
Speaker 1: I was like, God, like, she really has such control
Speaker 1: and a toggle over these two people, and both of
Speaker 1: them feel honest. I wouldn't say authentic. I don't really
Speaker 1: know what that means when I say that we're but
Speaker 1: honest versions of the same person. Does that make sense?
Speaker 1: And I absolutely identify strongly with that. That is very
Speaker 1: much that, like Daala is a very contained version of
Speaker 1: myself that can only exist in sort of short durations, right,
Speaker 1: which is like I think the magic of a character
Speaker 1: like that is like that sort of outlook is not sustainable,
Speaker 1: which is why all of my pessimism is reserved for
Speaker 1: out of drag experiences. Sure, then you become like Lady
Speaker 1: Gaga and you're like, I was this, I am this person,
Speaker 1: like there is no separation between well, and that's kind
Speaker 1: of where we're at, and we talk about this all
Speaker 1: the time as ourselves and in our collaboration. What's really
Speaker 1: really funny is that Dala and Jinx, I mean, we
Speaker 1: both possess multitudes. We both us aspects that are attributed
Speaker 1: to either of us. But it's so funny to hear
Speaker 1: Day Let's say that her character is so contained in optimism,
Speaker 1: and all of her pessimism exists in her real life,
Speaker 1: whereas for me, I get all of my demons out
Speaker 1: on stage, and then my day to day persona is
Speaker 1: this bubbly, over the top optimistic, like let's turn everything
Speaker 1: into a game. I mean, part of that's just me.
Speaker 1: Those are my coping mechanisms so I don't fall back
Speaker 1: into alcoholism. But also it's just who we naturally are,
Speaker 1: you know, Like she it's so funny that like on
Speaker 1: stage I'm the rand and she's the stimpy, and then
Speaker 1: off stage she's the burden. I'm the ernie, you know,
Speaker 1: like we kind of flip flop back and forth. And
Speaker 1: I mean that in all contexts. Yeah, I identify with that.
Speaker 1: I find I find that my day to day, especially
Speaker 1: in like developing my persona for my own special in
Speaker 1: my own Christmas show and the things that I do.
Speaker 1: I've come to realize like I'm much colder on stage
Speaker 1: as like the persona I play, and like much more
Speaker 1: like a smile a lot less, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: Like sometimes even sometimes I'll look at my own social media,
Speaker 1: like I'll black out and I'll look back at it,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, I am projecting someone who sometimes I
Speaker 1: and I guess that's like a struggle, right, like as
Speaker 1: someone who's like public and trying to be an artist
Speaker 1: but also like has like a podcast and gives people
Speaker 1: a glimpse into their real life. It's like you don't
Speaker 1: always have a hold on like what you're projecting and
Speaker 1: who you are. Like that that's tough to manage. And
Speaker 1: then to see it sort of edited down by someone
Speaker 1: else in a reality show has to be and then
Speaker 1: critiqued on that premise has to be such a mind fuck,
Speaker 1: like because I know it is for me, just like
Speaker 1: in trying to have a career without cameras following it
Speaker 1: and then being like yeah, yeah, yeah, we'll put this
Speaker 1: together and yeah, well I'm staying on my meds and
Speaker 1: drinking plenty of diet. It's a beautiful song. Maria Banford,
Speaker 1: You're welcome. Yeah, we have to ask you both the question,
Speaker 1: which is what was the culture that made you say
Speaker 1: culture was for me? Ben Let's start with you. I
Speaker 1: have really been overthinking this, which is no such thing
Speaker 1: that makes sense what the character is my amoum. I
Speaker 1: talk about a lot of the same touchdow like over
Speaker 1: and over again in interviews, I like talked about the
Speaker 1: same stuff, and I was really thinking about what's my
Speaker 1: angle here? And I think that the first time I
Speaker 1: remember being like deeply affected by a piece of media
Speaker 1: in a way that like rattled my core. With Labyrinth
Speaker 1: it was, oh, you know, it was so like campy
Speaker 1: and over the top and like a musical, but like right,
Speaker 1: so much of my sense of dy I think early
Speaker 1: on was sort of the things where some sort of
Speaker 1: reality and some sort of cartoon or puppet element crossover,
Speaker 1: like whom Roger Bradman was like a huge deal for
Speaker 1: me Pee Wee's Playhouse, which is that kind of dynamic. Um,
Speaker 1: but Labyrinth man just like shook me because I was
Speaker 1: I mean, I think it was like seven or something,
Speaker 1: and um, it was so playful and fun and like
Speaker 1: magical but also so sexy in a way that I
Speaker 1: was not prepared for and that I was so like
Speaker 1: excited but also deeply upset by. Yeah, just sort of
Speaker 1: understanding myself, that's that thing you're like, what is that? Well?
Speaker 1: And I think it's maybe also the first time that
Speaker 1: you're like, oh a piece of media can like reach
Speaker 1: real deep inside you two things that you don't even
Speaker 1: know how. I mean, I obviously I was not thinking
Speaker 1: about that at seven, but when I like reflect on it,
Speaker 1: the way that it can touch parts of you that
Speaker 1: you are unaware of. Yeah, that's why I say that
Speaker 1: the movie Beauty and the Beast is responsible for my
Speaker 1: foot fetish. Why guest on with the toe deep? Oh yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: like exactly what you want? Was that your gateway to
Speaker 1: David Bowie as well? Yes, yes, yes, And then I uh,
Speaker 1: I became just absolutely obsessed. It was actually it was
Speaker 1: my mom who brought home that VHS of Labyrinth, and
Speaker 1: she was just sort of she put it in sort
Speaker 1: of knowingly and watched it with me, and she was
Speaker 1: there was some part of her that was like, I
Speaker 1: think this is going to speak to you, and then
Speaker 1: afterwards burst into tears and it was like, you know,
Speaker 1: that was not a conversation we were having, but it
Speaker 1: was very much in retrospect her being like okay, like
Speaker 1: I see you, you know, but um wow yeah. No. Afterwards,
Speaker 1: like being able to sort of more fully dive into
Speaker 1: everything else that David Bowie has been was definitely that
Speaker 1: set me off on a path for sure, David Bowie too.
Speaker 1: That's I would also probab maybe even connect that to
Speaker 1: you like gravitating towards drag because David Bowie was in
Speaker 1: an essence a drag queen. I mean, he was everything.
Speaker 1: Oh absolutely. It also launched me into the Jim Henson universe,
Speaker 1: which is also full of drag queens, Yes, Piggy and
Speaker 1: Janice and all these other you know, Frank Oz playing
Speaker 1: all of these amazing archetypal women. Yes, so yeah, from
Speaker 1: all angles, it combined every element of that excellent answer
Speaker 1: because every strand really goes back to that thing for
Speaker 1: to labyrinth for you, where it's the beam of light
Speaker 1: that refracts into all these things that you do now,
Speaker 1: which is beautiful. Yeah, and there's a million other touchstones
Speaker 1: along the way, but that's the first time I remember
Speaker 1: just being truly shattered by something in a good way.
Speaker 1: And also the like bizarre glamor you know, like it's
Speaker 1: glam but it's also fucked well and it's sexy and
Speaker 1: it's fun, but it's also like deeply it's like getting
Speaker 1: into like fears and like it and like all sorts
Speaker 1: of you know, it's it's speaking to sort of serious
Speaker 1: and complex emotions and yeahs, you know, and I like that.
Speaker 1: I like when something is really silly and campy and
Speaker 1: sparkly and draws you in and then uh kind of
Speaker 1: one two punches you as something else. Yeah, we don't
Speaker 1: have enough of that stuff now, we really do. I
Speaker 1: think the last thing I can really imagine. And speaking
Speaker 1: of duos that like went for it in like a
Speaker 1: stylized way that you can see in watching it. I
Speaker 1: was like, people that see this that are young and
Speaker 1: don't really know themselves yet might really find themselves. And
Speaker 1: this is like Barb and Star. Yeah, such an incredible movie.
Speaker 1: Jins and I watched that like within twenty four hours
Speaker 1: of each other and could not shut up about it.
Speaker 1: Anyone who doesn't like that movie doesn't know movies. It's amazing.
Speaker 1: Why are we not seeing drag queens? I don't want
Speaker 1: to say who the villain is. Why have we not
Speaker 1: seen more drag queens cosplaying that villain? Right? You're right, right,
Speaker 1: you're right. Yeah, the soda scream in the beginning, I
Speaker 1: knew and it was beautiful the way that I really
Speaker 1: like spoke to sort of this amazing journey of these
Speaker 1: women in middle age kind of finding themselves and reassessing.
Speaker 1: And it was such an amazing way to get into that.
Speaker 1: And that's what I love about camp in general is
Speaker 1: that it just sort of breadcrumbs you down a road
Speaker 1: and then you can do anything with it, and you
Speaker 1: can keep it silly or you can really go somewhere.
Speaker 1: But people they all their armor is down when they've
Speaker 1: been dazzled by some like bright colors and some goofy jokes. God,
Speaker 1: you're so right. It is breadcrumbs when it comes to
Speaker 1: like delivering camp. I think we all like can recognize
Speaker 1: it at this point in the culture, but to make
Speaker 1: it it is this thing where you leave crumbs and
Speaker 1: then once you fully have the audience in the pocket
Speaker 1: of that, you can do literally anything and we will
Speaker 1: be along for the ride. There can be a crab
Speaker 1: that like comes along and speaks in Morgan Freeman's voice,
Speaker 1: you know, like that speaking of which, and this is
Speaker 1: something that Jinx and I sort of like always think
Speaker 1: about in our shows is that we have like this
Speaker 1: sort of heart that we want to get people to that.
Speaker 1: We really want them to feel vulnerable, and so we
Speaker 1: use a lot of dick jokes to get there, but
Speaker 1: also puppets try having the drag the crab like deliver
Speaker 1: that message. I always, I actually always use puppets to
Speaker 1: talk about them. I did a show like a million
Speaker 1: years ago about um it was. It was about like
Speaker 1: American history, and I used a bald eagle puppet to
Speaker 1: address slavery and genocide because that's the only you know
Speaker 1: what I mean, it's like the only delirious system that
Speaker 1: like the audience will like tolerate because they're like, oh,
Speaker 1: it's a silly puppet giving this heavy, heavy message. Yes, yeah, totally.
Speaker 1: Oh and we do that in the show as well, right,
Speaker 1: except usually our puppets are villa. Yeah. Oh right, because
Speaker 1: it was the it was the Barkart. Yeah. So in
Speaker 1: the in the special, it's the ghost of my dead
Speaker 1: grandmother in a glass of eggnog and she's sort of
Speaker 1: like racist and homophobic. Um yeah, And we've used that
Speaker 1: a lot. We had a transphobic gingerbread man on one
Speaker 1: of our that was like furious that we were not
Speaker 1: necessarily going to assign them mail like through bread ties
Speaker 1: and like signifiers like that. Yeah, were angry about that.
Speaker 1: I'm curious about what other touchstones there were though, because
Speaker 1: you overthought it. I do want to know where else
Speaker 1: your brain went, Like along the way. There's a lot
Speaker 1: of like Elvira hue Herman characters who I really love
Speaker 1: that they never broke. They would go on like a
Speaker 1: late night talk show and they would not reveal the
Speaker 1: person behind them, which is something I was sad about
Speaker 1: Drag Race sort of losing, is that it's like first
Speaker 1: to see the person behind the character, and we've lost
Speaker 1: that thing of people who just never allow you to
Speaker 1: know them, which makes you believe in their characters in
Speaker 1: a way. That's why would we be able to believe
Speaker 1: that Elvira is a person human like moving through the world.
Speaker 1: But Cassandra Peterson has convinced us of that, like we
Speaker 1: bought it right in a way that was like speaking
Speaker 1: to like the child in us and all sorts of stuff.
Speaker 1: And then I don't know, fast forward and when I
Speaker 1: saw the Weekstock documentary, that was really when I was like, oh, click,
Speaker 1: click click, all these sensibilities drag is part of this,
Speaker 1: And that's where I really was able to say, oh,
Speaker 1: all these things that I am already drawn to, or
Speaker 1: that I already am, there's a container for that, and
Speaker 1: it's this thing called drag. And that's how you get
Speaker 1: to incorporate all of it. That is drag, drags the clock,
Speaker 1: and then everything else is sort of the gear and
Speaker 1: the hand and all that saying. I can't think of
Speaker 1: a modern equivalent to like an Elvira, a peewee, like
Speaker 1: someone who will not break on it like that though,
Speaker 1: because we're obsessed with knowing whoeverone is. Does Pete Davidson
Speaker 1: how I don't know about that? But I mean, I
Speaker 1: gonna bring up age just because Matt and I were
Speaker 1: on a Jimmy Glick kick recently and Jimmy Glick is
Speaker 1: like it's it's so ridiculous, And there are problematic aspects
Speaker 1: of Jimmy Glick obviously, but like there's something really pretty
Speaker 1: brilliant about Martin Short, just like staying in that zone
Speaker 1: and having Jimminy Glick be the delivery system for his
Speaker 1: most vile, toxic, mean, rude thoughts and he would just
Speaker 1: insult his guests. You know, you know who is maybe
Speaker 1: our closest thing is Stephen Colbert. Sure, Yeah, totally totally
Speaker 1: less so now but right, and Amy Sedaris has built
Speaker 1: like even just her out of Jerry Blank drag, Like
Speaker 1: by creating at Home with Amy Sedaris, She's created a
Speaker 1: version of herself that is Amy Sedaris, but also a heightened,
Speaker 1: you know, clown form of her. You know what's funny
Speaker 1: is I completely agree with Dayla, And also I think
Speaker 1: there's something very powerful about just us talking about ourselves
Speaker 1: and talking about our lives. You know, Like I really
Speaker 1: did miss the anonymity that I gave up when I
Speaker 1: did drag Race. Like I used to be able to
Speaker 1: be Jinks and then get out of drag and no
Speaker 1: one knew who I was in Seattle. I mean, like
Speaker 1: the more popular I got within the drag scene, the
Speaker 1: less that was. But like I still was able to
Speaker 1: like go places out of drag and just be a
Speaker 1: human being and that's kind of gone from me now.
Speaker 1: But to know that people who resonate with the stories
Speaker 1: that I've been very candid with to know that that
Speaker 1: inspires them and helps them in the same way that
Speaker 1: drag queens did that for me. It might be like
Speaker 1: through different forms, you know, but like people are drawing
Speaker 1: inspiration from me the same way I drew inspiration from
Speaker 1: Lady Bunny and Coco Peru and you know, the old
Speaker 1: guard of drag, the generation that paved this path for me.
Speaker 1: So uh, it's it's give and take. I'm okay with
Speaker 1: it is the thing. It's like, I'm okay and I
Speaker 1: still do what I love to do and they assign
Speaker 1: meaning to it. I always say, listen, I'm really really
Speaker 1: happy to pay it forward. If me getting on stage
Speaker 1: and telling a bunch of satirical dick jokes makes you
Speaker 1: feel more seen than, it's a win win total in us.
Speaker 1: Beautiful Jinx, What about you the culture that made you
Speaker 1: say culture was for you? Um, I'm gonna weave a
Speaker 1: tale of many things that have all fit together, but
Speaker 1: I think my my answer is LARPing, live, oh, role playing.
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness. Now, in middle school, all of my
Speaker 1: friends were Mormons, but I didn't know what Mormons were.
Speaker 1: But these were Portland Mormons, so they were very liberal Mormons.
Speaker 1: And their favorite things were the King Arthur Legends and
Speaker 1: Rocky Horror Picture Show. And so we did a lot
Speaker 1: of things. Yeah, we did a lot of We would
Speaker 1: put on the soundtrack and act out the soundtrack. That
Speaker 1: happened a lot. We all had nicknames based off of
Speaker 1: characters in the King Arthur legends. I was Queen Gwenevere,
Speaker 1: and then I was a greade below or two grades
Speaker 1: below most of the friends in this group, so their
Speaker 1: eighth grade graduation. After the last day of school, we
Speaker 1: went to a park and larked for like three hours.
Speaker 1: And I guess the reason why this is so important
Speaker 1: to me is because it was this moment of realizing
Speaker 1: that if you are just honest about having an interest
Speaker 1: in something, you might find people who share that interest,
Speaker 1: even if it's the dorkiest interest, something you would never
Speaker 1: want to even reveal about yourself. But if you find
Speaker 1: a way to safely reveal that, you might find people
Speaker 1: who share the interest. And like I sincerely loved dressing
Speaker 1: up in Renaissance gear and running around in this park
Speaker 1: with my friends and pretending I was a shape shifter.
Speaker 1: I had this Perier bottle that I had peeled the
Speaker 1: labels off of and it was my shape shifting potion.
Speaker 1: It led to me cracking my tooth. Oh, because they're
Speaker 1: so hard, those bottles. Yeah, someone bumped into me and
Speaker 1: it broke my tooth. And I used to lie and
Speaker 1: say it was a skateboarding accident because I didn't want
Speaker 1: to admit that it was from live action role play.
Speaker 1: But you know, when I think about that, I'm like,
Speaker 1: that just showed me that, like, there are people in
Speaker 1: the world who want to play make believe with you.
Speaker 1: And then it wasn't long after that I saw my
Speaker 1: first drag show. It wasn't long after that that I
Speaker 1: started doing drag and that was just like, those are
Speaker 1: the breadcrumbs of leading to me being me. And then
Speaker 1: I think about The Dresden Dolls and Amanda Palmer. The
Speaker 1: Dresden Doll the first band of my youth that was
Speaker 1: like not a band that my parents listened to when
Speaker 1: I found myself, and it was like so very much.
Speaker 1: It was the exact kind of music I had always
Speaker 1: been waiting for. That Amanda Palmer became this big icon
Speaker 1: to me. Amanda Palmer's gone on to do such amazing things.
Speaker 1: She's continued to be this icon. We got to do
Speaker 1: a duet together. She put out a book and a
Speaker 1: Ted Talk, So if you can't read, you can listen
Speaker 1: to the Ted Talk. But it's called the Art of Asking.
Speaker 1: And that's how I started this whole rant. But the
Speaker 1: art of asking. It's just the concept that if you
Speaker 1: are honest with the world about what it is you
Speaker 1: need or what it is you're looking for, then you
Speaker 1: might find people who want to give it to you,
Speaker 1: and you might not ask for anything in return. They
Speaker 1: might just be looking for someone to give this thing to.
Speaker 1: But you'll never know until you ask. Yeah. So I
Speaker 1: think we've been conditioned to think that we have to
Speaker 1: do everything on our own. And if you need help
Speaker 1: from others, or if you need to ask for help,
Speaker 1: or if you need to ask for assistance, or you're
Speaker 1: searching for people with similar interests, then you're somehow weak
Speaker 1: or less apt or less like fit for the world.
Speaker 1: But a man Palmer says, Nah, there are just times
Speaker 1: when if you ask, you can receive, and it's as
Speaker 1: simple as that. That's wonderful. Between the Dresden Dolls and Larking,
Speaker 1: I think there's this shared thing of like esthetics, where
Speaker 1: like Listen, I never larped, but I would do this
Speaker 1: thing I was like squarely in the eighth grade, let's say,
Speaker 1: going to Chinese school on Sundays, and what I would
Speaker 1: do with the kids in like the fifth grade who
Speaker 1: were around these like all the Chinese kids, kind of
Speaker 1: like we're in the same soup or whatever. And then
Speaker 1: we all like went outside and I would lead these
Speaker 1: like this weird high fantasy like adventure where I was
Speaker 1: the dark Lord and these kids had to chase me
Speaker 1: down and fight me with their spells. But the thing is,
Speaker 1: we didn't have costumes. And so between the Dressdin Dolls
Speaker 1: and you LARPing as Guinevere with your potion, like you
Speaker 1: had costumes and props, and I feel like the Dressden
Speaker 1: Dolls were this group who like embraced this like fusion
Speaker 1: of cabaret and punk and so like it was steampunk
Speaker 1: cabaret punk punk. It was also like very clear even
Speaker 1: though they were a male and a female, and but
Speaker 1: like I would venture that Amanda Palmer identifies as queer,
Speaker 1: and they exuded it at a time when I wasn't
Speaker 1: seeing a lot of queerness and media, I was assigning
Speaker 1: queerness two things, right, you know, remember when we didn't
Speaker 1: used to get to see ourselves on TV, so we
Speaker 1: had to find ourselves. I've always found myself in the
Speaker 1: most random of places, like magic al dispel on ducktails,
Speaker 1: remember that freaking he stuck It's why little queer kids
Speaker 1: are always choosing who they choose in video games, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean. Yeah, I think it's a much
Speaker 1: more mainstream instinct than people realize that they want to
Speaker 1: disappear into something. I mean, even little kids when they're
Speaker 1: playing like man Hunt. You know, there's this fantasy they're
Speaker 1: playing about about hunting and being hunt dead that they
Speaker 1: do in a safe way, or like with video games
Speaker 1: or even in school. I remember my favorite things were where.
Speaker 1: I remember when I was in eighth grade, we were
Speaker 1: going to re enact the Boston massacre trial and I
Speaker 1: was John Adams the Law and it was my favorite
Speaker 1: thing because I would write these long, long speeches to
Speaker 1: give in front of the jury. And I remember I
Speaker 1: think people were afraid of how hard I was committing
Speaker 1: to it, and I was really willing to commit to
Speaker 1: commit to it because I think they were like, it
Speaker 1: wasn't cool to commit to it. It seemed gay to
Speaker 1: commit to this thing, so they didn't vote for me
Speaker 1: at the end. And I remember I did not win
Speaker 1: the tribe. It was really like that. It was very overdrawn,
Speaker 1: and I'm telling you, my closing argument to the jury
Speaker 1: was like ten pages and I'll never forget. My teacher,
Speaker 1: mister Tapagna, pulled me over to the side and he said,
Speaker 1: I want you to know that I appreciate what you've done,
Speaker 1: and I want you to give me that because it's
Speaker 1: one of the best things I've had written in my class.
Speaker 1: And he saw that I tried hard and committed it
Speaker 1: and wanted to live out the fantasy. And it's like
Speaker 1: that thing where you see a kid wanting to live
Speaker 1: out fantasy and other like their peers like stomp it
Speaker 1: out a little bit. And there is that instinct, I think,
Speaker 1: to stomp out creativity and stomp out like imagination, and
Speaker 1: we see it now more than ever because of fear
Speaker 1: and because maybe that you'll look stupid if you try
Speaker 1: to do the same thing. But I really appreciated that
Speaker 1: someone in my life encourage that. Like I said, I
Speaker 1: do think like if we all were more in touch
Speaker 1: with our inner children, we all would be doing more
Speaker 1: things like that. Because it's fantasy, it's imagination, it's fun,
Speaker 1: it doesn't have to be scary or weird. You know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's interesting that it's niche because it's actually so universal.
Speaker 1: I think it's why video games are like such a
Speaker 1: big part of our culture. And we're talking a lot
Speaker 1: about queerness and video games, and I think video game
Speaker 1: developers are having to realize that they have a huge
Speaker 1: queer audience because I don't think people realize it. But
Speaker 1: like video games were a safe space for queer kids,
Speaker 1: ye because you could play by yourself, and just like
Speaker 1: you were saying, you choose characters. Especially nowadays, you can
Speaker 1: customize this character, so who cares who you are in
Speaker 1: your day to day life. You can be who you
Speaker 1: want to be in video games and no one has
Speaker 1: to know. And so that's why this kind of representation
Speaker 1: is important. But I think we should just find ways
Speaker 1: to make life more like video games. We should just
Speaker 1: let people be their avatars in their day to day
Speaker 1: life without judgment. I mean, alok v men, And sorry,
Speaker 1: I know I'm on such a tangent right now, but
Speaker 1: Aloke is always talking about the reason why people try
Speaker 1: to squash out that creativity is because they're afraid, And
Speaker 1: you were just saying fear, but it's like it's fear
Speaker 1: of two things. It's fear of someone else living that
Speaker 1: kind of freedom and having to reconcile that they're being
Speaker 1: free and realizing that you're not free, and so having
Speaker 1: to admit that you've been living under this like brainwashed
Speaker 1: conditioning your whole life, and if you wanted to, you
Speaker 1: could actually be free of that. But then also the
Speaker 1: fear of like what would that feel like to let
Speaker 1: all the rules go and of everything we've been taught
Speaker 1: and just actually live authentically, Like that's terrifying for some people,
Speaker 1: and queer people were just used to being terrified, so
Speaker 1: we go for it, right, Yeah, Yeah, yeah, I think
Speaker 1: that's true. It's it's very hard and scary to live
Speaker 1: your life open to things and taking risks because you
Speaker 1: get hurt, you know, like especially like when that's intrinsically
Speaker 1: who you are and who you want to be, you know,
Speaker 1: especially like living in a world where you are told
Speaker 1: in a macro sense like you don't fit in here,
Speaker 1: and so then you're like alone with yourself and you think, well,
Speaker 1: at a certain point, I look back and I think
Speaker 1: that actually was a gift, because I'm like, well, if
Speaker 1: I don't belong here, let me look around for what
Speaker 1: I do belong. And then it's the asking of it
Speaker 1: all that you mentioned. It is the finding of community,
Speaker 1: and then you find your you know, bow and yang
Speaker 1: to you, or you're been to you or your jings
Speaker 1: to you, and like you feel encouraged and you feel
Speaker 1: more like yourself through community. Absolutely. I mean, I think
Speaker 1: that as queer people, we spend a lot of childhood
Speaker 1: like waiting for adulthood and then explode into an extreme
Speaker 1: right because it's been getting pent up for all that time.
Speaker 1: It's and I think one of the beautiful things about
Speaker 1: the video game Aspect Right is that, like we just
Speaker 1: had to wait until we had access to anything that
Speaker 1: could help us sort of present ourselves the way that
Speaker 1: we see ourselves, or that we had like a safe
Speaker 1: environment where we could present ourselves in the way that
Speaker 1: we see ourselves. And now there is this outlet for
Speaker 1: queer kids to have some of that. You know. One
Speaker 1: of my favorite this is actually, I'm sorry this is
Speaker 1: a tangent, but one of my favorite things to ever
Speaker 1: be on SNL is Wells for Boys. Oh my god,
Speaker 1: it's I think it was a water actually, I mean,
Speaker 1: I think that was a huge deal that was so explicitly,
Speaker 1: intrinsically deeply queer. Yeah, that was just a way that
Speaker 1: I've seen myself reflected in media that I have not
Speaker 1: seen before. But I really, you know, I think a
Speaker 1: lot of us that's the thing is we just like
Speaker 1: sit around and wait to be grown up so that
Speaker 1: we can do anything about it. And then of course
Speaker 1: we're just going to be like totally balls to the
Speaker 1: wall by the time we get there totally. I think
Speaker 1: I am trying to maybe connect too many dots here,
Speaker 1: But I think, like the thing, the thing from day Alt,
Speaker 1: the thing from Jenks about these cultural touchdones is that
Speaker 1: like aesthetics matter in that it is what communicates, It
Speaker 1: is the medium of communication for people. That's I think
Speaker 1: that's why, like I always say, like it's not shallow
Speaker 1: to like care about the way you look, even if
Speaker 1: it goes against a beauty standard, but it goes if
Speaker 1: it goes along with the beauty standard. It's like it's
Speaker 1: important because it might actually play into like a gender
Speaker 1: expression or another kind of expression. But then I think
Speaker 1: it's also the reason why not to bring this into
Speaker 1: the chat. But like the drag bans are like all
Speaker 1: of a sudden very prolific, is because drag ends up
Speaker 1: being the most aesthetically impactful thing across the board. And
Speaker 1: so it's the thing that like Stokes fear in certain
Speaker 1: people who think, well, this is the most dire dangerous
Speaker 1: thing that's going on right now, even though it does
Speaker 1: not pose any threat to them. But it's only because
Speaker 1: there's this aesthetic quality to drag that like says so
Speaker 1: much without really saying anything verbally orally. Does that make sense?
Speaker 1: It's like what we were talking about earlier about like
Speaker 1: you get to start from a more honest place with
Speaker 1: new people that you meet. Right, Like, my life has
Speaker 1: improved so much now that I've started presenting as the
Speaker 1: way that I feel inside, because people call me ma'am
Speaker 1: rather than sir, and so I respond joyfully rather than cranky. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: So yeah, aesthetic, aesthetic presentation can be more important than
Speaker 1: just you know, vanity or it's not all about ego now,
Speaker 1: it is also about having a conversation without words. Well
Speaker 1: and dragon, I think, I mean, I think it's also
Speaker 1: scary to people in general. But right now, obviously there's
Speaker 1: a lot happening with drag right now in our country
Speaker 1: that's like bizarrely high profile. I still it feels surreal
Speaker 1: to me, but it also feels so familiar, right It's
Speaker 1: like I think a lot of people are reacting to
Speaker 1: it in this way where it's like WHOA, who could
Speaker 1: have seen this? And I'm like, I think most of us,
Speaker 1: you know, And it started there like that's it was
Speaker 1: recent history that drag was regarded in this way, and
Speaker 1: I think it's because it's like, it is the aesthetics
Speaker 1: about a claiming power. It's about being the most powerful
Speaker 1: person in the room, and that's huge. And that's what
Speaker 1: it was in like bull culture in Paris is burning.
Speaker 1: It was being like, okay, we're not rich and straight,
Speaker 1: but we can still claim that power in these spaces.
Speaker 1: And now we're in all the spaces, and of course
Speaker 1: it's terrifying to people because yeah, yeah, I don't fear
Speaker 1: controls people. And imagine imagine being like a god fearing
Speaker 1: person who's been taught that feels that way, and then
Speaker 1: hearing someone like RuPaul saying I am God and drag,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, And suddenly there's hundred of
Speaker 1: like I guess what ru would call it, monsters running
Speaker 1: around being God and drag. And then that idea, even
Speaker 1: if you are not a drag queen or have an
Speaker 1: instinct to do drag, I remember how revolutionary it was
Speaker 1: for me to hear that there actually were not limits.
Speaker 1: That is when my comedy really broke open. And I
Speaker 1: have to credit like the popularity of drag Race for
Speaker 1: showing me someone in my twenties who was very much
Speaker 1: doing this sort of straight drag in my comedy until
Speaker 1: I realized there was like an empowering thing about really
Speaker 1: taking your queerness and putting it out there. I mean,
Speaker 1: it was this weird time in my life and I
Speaker 1: think I'm speaking for a bow and two, which was
Speaker 1: like drag Race becoming huge, our friends Josh Sharp and
Speaker 1: Aaron Jackson, like performing at UCB, which is like a
Speaker 1: very hetero institution at the time, and then being so
Speaker 1: unapologetically their fag itself, you know what I mean, Like
Speaker 1: like and I just like it's this idea like, oh wow,
Speaker 1: I actually don't have limits, and I don't think I
Speaker 1: would do anything that I do now if that message
Speaker 1: hadn't been delivered to me. And so for queer people
Speaker 1: to be given this powerful message and this powerful tool
Speaker 1: and to realize, like, don't listen to the naysayers and
Speaker 1: all these things, like, of course, that's going to be
Speaker 1: scary for people that want controlled desperately because they're afraid. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but now that you've mentioned it, I will say that
Speaker 1: i've seen videos of your UCB characters. You're upright, since
Speaker 1: I've seen what was this? M Yeah, that was one
Speaker 1: of my favorite, the most unpredictable Batman villain of all time,
Speaker 1: where they didn't have an identity or like they basically
Speaker 1: were everything everywhere all at once if you were, and
Speaker 1: that would make them actually predictable, because if you think
Speaker 1: about these Batman villains, it's like, okay, so they're the Joker.
Speaker 1: You know, there's going to be a card. You know,
Speaker 1: it's probably going to be the thing opposite of what
Speaker 1: they say. Like, we really could kill the Joker if
Speaker 1: we wanted to. I get that gothamester run and be afraid,
Speaker 1: but like know the Riddler. Let's just get someone who's
Speaker 1: good at riddles on the case, get someone who's get
Speaker 1: mamma who's good at wordle to come in here, and
Speaker 1: we can kill the Riddler to penguin honey and I
Speaker 1: don't know, I'll turn up the heat. Wow. Speaking of Wordle,
Speaker 1: we are boycotting the Times now, so yeah, listen, Wordle
Speaker 1: was if you played Wordle for more than two weeks
Speaker 1: and I used this word pejoratively. You're a fucking nerd.
Speaker 1: You're how we already established a love of nerddom in
Speaker 1: this conversation. Though, Yeah, I'm choosing in this instance to
Speaker 1: use it prejoratively and to actually, like weabinize that that word. Sure,
Speaker 1: as a queer person, you have that option absolutely, And
Speaker 1: I was using faggot prejoratively against Jason. I want to say,
Speaker 1: Eric Jackson, what a great person. I've known er ages
Speaker 1: and I have had the biggest crush on them my
Speaker 1: entire knowing them. But I just the Times. The Times
Speaker 1: is oh. I felt horrible because I was introducing Sam
Speaker 1: Lansky to a group of people, and I always love
Speaker 1: to brag about my friends, and I was like, Sam
Speaker 1: Lansky New York Times bestseller, But who gives a fuck?
Speaker 1: What the New York Times thing? You should say, good reads, legend,
Speaker 1: Sam Lancy, but don't support Amazon. I think, ma, I'm
Speaker 1: moving very sort of naturally into our so called I
Speaker 1: don't think so Honey, because there's not a bigger I
Speaker 1: don't think so Honey than New York Times right now.
Speaker 1: But this is our sixty second segment where we take
Speaker 1: something in pop culture and we sort of absolutely rage
Speaker 1: against it because it needs to be raged against. Mine's
Speaker 1: a little alt this week both but as a result
Speaker 1: of my ticket buying spree when I'm high, I've realized
Speaker 1: something about myself and I would pop off interesting. This
Speaker 1: is Matt Rogers. I don't think so many a time
Speaker 1: starts now. I don't think so honey, me during a
Speaker 1: Broadway show, I'm not watching the story. I'm watching the butts.
Speaker 1: Especially when I'm in the front row at Chicago, I
Speaker 1: am looking at your butt. I'm sorry, if you're a
Speaker 1: dancer in a Broadway show, I'm looking at your butt.
Speaker 1: It's sort of like it's it's something I can't control.
Speaker 1: And the garments that my guys are wearing, like, oh my,
Speaker 1: I'm telling it's happening at something like it Hot. It's
Speaker 1: happening at Chicago. It's happening over here, over there, it's
Speaker 1: happening at End Juliet. It's happening at I'm going to
Speaker 1: see a Dolls House, Jessica chast Stake. There. It's happening
Speaker 1: at Bet Cinderella. It's one of the only things happening
Speaker 1: at kidding so much, just happening at Bet Cinderella, and
Speaker 1: I think I had the time of my life watching it.
Speaker 1: But I'm still processing. Sure Broadway boys, get in the dms.
Speaker 1: Reach out. At the very least I can make you laugh.
Speaker 1: I'll take your ass. Let's have a good time, Let's
Speaker 1: have a drink and as twirl about the room. I
Speaker 1: don't think so. And that's one minute lovely. And speaking
Speaker 1: of Broadway asses, I would say, jinks, that suit really
Speaker 1: fits you nicely. The suit fits me nicely. The ass
Speaker 1: is fake, No it is. That's my phone drag ass silly,
Speaker 1: Well that number thirty None of my silly. Just the
Speaker 1: most gorgeous people in the world in Broadway ensembles. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's just I'm so happy for all of them too,
Speaker 1: because it does feel like an exciting time on Broadway again.
Speaker 1: Like I went to go see obviously you in Chicago
Speaker 1: and it felt like, you know, afterwards, we were lucky
Speaker 1: enough when you popped out, got to meet Lana Gordon
Speaker 1: who's playing Oh My God, and even she was saying,
Speaker 1: like the energy has been so great, I mean, like
Speaker 1: and like to hear about the houses being filled in
Speaker 1: the way that they have with you, with you, like
Speaker 1: that's amazing. Not only for you and for Broadway, but
Speaker 1: also for these incredibly talented people who don't always get
Speaker 1: receptions like that or excited audience is like that, who
Speaker 1: really deserve it, because this is to even get one
Speaker 1: of these jobs and to keep one of these jobs
Speaker 1: is such a feat and like just so kudos to
Speaker 1: all of them, and they're gorgeous. Absolutely, I will keep
Speaker 1: this brief, but it's a really queer time on Broadway
Speaker 1: right now. Lots of it's true, and it's about fucking time.
Speaker 1: But I'll say this because it was kind of astounding.
Speaker 1: I saw Take Me Out, which you probably heard about
Speaker 1: for Jesse Tyler's Tony winning performance in it, but also
Speaker 1: full frontal male nudity. Now, both with Chicago and with
Speaker 1: Take Me Out, there was a thing that drew queer
Speaker 1: audiences in full frontal male nudity, drag queen on stage,
Speaker 1: so there was a hook that lured audiences in. Then
Speaker 1: once they were in Take Me Out, it was a
Speaker 1: profoundly beautiful show. It was so good, it was confronting,
Speaker 1: it was honest, it was magnificently performed. Chicago, like you
Speaker 1: were saying, Lna Gordon and Charlotte dan Bois icons. They
Speaker 1: are gay icons who have been playing these roles for
Speaker 1: years and are fine finally getting to play these roles
Speaker 1: in front of queer audiences who are going to respect
Speaker 1: the work that they're doing and the level that they're
Speaker 1: doing it at in a way that their straight audiences
Speaker 1: might not have access to. So everything you just said, yes, yes, yes,
Speaker 1: Broadway very queer. It always has been, but now we're
Speaker 1: being unapologetic about it. Yeah, And I do just want
Speaker 1: to tag onto that, like I mentioning that I saw
Speaker 1: these shows just excellent, and there's also in some like
Speaker 1: It Hot and and Juliette, there are explicit trans narratives
Speaker 1: in them that like And to see that in more
Speaker 1: than one show on Broadway right now, not even just
Speaker 1: queer like it's really exciting. And I found myself looking
Speaker 1: around and everyone really receiving it and watching it, and
Speaker 1: I just think about, you know, when I was a
Speaker 1: little kid seeing Hairspray on Broadway like that that was
Speaker 1: such a revolutionary thing at the time, and to the
Speaker 1: progression on that and to see it really happening in
Speaker 1: Broadway theater, like, you know, kudos. And I've been having
Speaker 1: a really amazing time. I'm seeing all of these shows.
Speaker 1: All right, Bowen, yan, are you ready for your I
Speaker 1: don't think so, honey. I'm ready. I'm ready, and I
Speaker 1: don't know how this will be received. I feel this
Speaker 1: way though I do. I do well. If you feel it,
Speaker 1: you need to speak it, Okay, Bowen, this is your
Speaker 1: I don't think so, honey. Your time starts now. I
Speaker 1: don't think so, honey. The words macaroon, macaron, and macaroni.
Speaker 1: Language fails us all the time. These are three things
Speaker 1: that are completely different from each other, and yet they
Speaker 1: share the same root word. Yes, and really it doesn't
Speaker 1: make any sense. These are things that cannot be interchanged
Speaker 1: for each other. Maybe a macaroon and a macaroon can
Speaker 1: be interchanged for each other. They're both sweet, lovely, delectable desserts.
Speaker 1: They're not the same thing. And I actually don't like
Speaker 1: it when people refer to a French macaroon as a macaroon.
Speaker 1: There's no coconut, there's no almond, carelessly tossing this term around.
Speaker 1: Words matter, and yet words fail us. It is a
Speaker 1: terrible conundrum we are in. As English speaker. I truly
Speaker 1: mourn the loss of other languages and an era of
Speaker 1: globalization in an era when every person on earth is
Speaker 1: expected to know some English, when they have gorgeous mother
Speaker 1: tongues that can more readily wield these three different foods
Speaker 1: with different terms macaroni, macaroon, macaron different things entirely. And
Speaker 1: that's one minute, My girl said, era of globalization. It's true,
Speaker 1: it's true. I may you say something subversive, which is
Speaker 1: that I think a macaron is disgusting, and I'm really
Speaker 1: upset when somebody offers me a macaroon and get out
Speaker 1: of here. Get out of here, because a macaron is delectable.
Speaker 1: I feel the opposite. Ben Well, but we're Jack Spratt
Speaker 1: and his wife. We're going to polish them all off.
Speaker 1: I love macaroni. I love macaroni too. I love it.
Speaker 1: I always forget when someone says macaroni that they don't
Speaker 1: necessarily mean elbow. But I think of elbow macaroni when
Speaker 1: I think of macaroni. But it could literally be any
Speaker 1: tubular pasta. Let's just I didn't know that. Yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: learning so much here. Any tubular pasta macaroni, Yes, any
Speaker 1: tubular pasta macaroni. It's square rectangle sort of thing. So
Speaker 1: Penney is macaroni. Penny is considered macaroni. Next time you go.
Speaker 1: I don't think so, honey. If you go and buy
Speaker 1: a penny at the store, you're going to see macaroni
Speaker 1: on the box. I don't think it's very's telling meat
Speaker 1: is macaroni. Forget it? It's square rectangle. Wow, that might
Speaker 1: have to be a rule of culture. What that? Every
Speaker 1: tubular pasta is Macaroni's consider? What number was that? Again? Seven?
Speaker 1: It's rule of culture number seven. Every tubular pasta is macaroni.
Speaker 1: Rigatoni is Macaroni is macaroni. I'm horrified by this, but
Speaker 1: I resk It's crazy, isn't that jarring? Think? It really
Speaker 1: freaks me out if I think too hard about it.
Speaker 1: Macaroons are not macar macaroon, and neither of them are macaroni,
Speaker 1: And yet they all sound so similar. And when Yankee
Speaker 1: Doodle stuck a feather in his hat, he called it macaroni. Oh,
Speaker 1: oh my god, I didn't you know? Then? I identify
Speaker 1: with you being scared about the new information and fearful.
Speaker 1: But remember that, you know. Jennifer Lewis once looked me
Speaker 1: in the eyes on this podcast and she said, we
Speaker 1: can be scared, but we must not be unafraid. So
Speaker 1: take this information in and move forth. I think we
Speaker 1: should start with a bende la creme. I don't think so, honey.
Speaker 1: What do you say? Wow? I love it. This is
Speaker 1: this is the moment in time. You're ready, I'm down.
Speaker 1: Mine is also language based to this. Amazing, It's perfect.
Speaker 1: This is bende la cremes. I don't think so, honey.
Speaker 1: Her time starts new. I don't think so, honey. With
Speaker 1: the de evolution of the English language through TikTok, I
Speaker 1: cannot handle the POV situation. Yeah, that is not POV.
Speaker 1: Of me eating a French fry. Is A fistful of
Speaker 1: French fries is of me eating French fries. It makes
Speaker 1: me furious. I'm I do not like this no one
Speaker 1: colon thing. I understand that started a certain way, but
Speaker 1: it it devolved into it. We don't need everything to
Speaker 1: start with no one colon. We know that no one's
Speaker 1: anything that is implicit in leaving it alone. I come
Speaker 1: from the greatest generation of overusing like and misusing ironic
Speaker 1: and literally. I feel good about that. I think we
Speaker 1: should stop it there. I think it's getting too rapid
Speaker 1: and too out of control is meaningless. I want to
Speaker 1: hear no more chaotic. Everybody learned what POV is, and
Speaker 1: stop putting your memes in like four different fonts. Just
Speaker 1: write a new meme. That is what we need. And
Speaker 1: I don't think so, honey about any of this d evolution.
Speaker 1: And that's one minute I knew you by God, I mean,
Speaker 1: isn't it funny bowen is them? I have always identified
Speaker 1: as I just especially in the confessionals. I'm like, God,
Speaker 1: I was like, I could listen to this person just
Speaker 1: talk and time. Not not that it's that's a means
Speaker 1: of identification, but I'm just like, oh, I love this
Speaker 1: person truly truly. But no, no, no, no no, but this
Speaker 1: is that was a perfect I don't think so and
Speaker 1: it POV is. The usage is completely bastardized. It's crazy,
Speaker 1: so upsetting, particularly by really really attractive people who honestly
Speaker 1: should be trying harder. Yes, agree, but then that kills
Speaker 1: it for me. I'm like, no, boner gone, it's not
Speaker 1: gonna work, And no one colon. Yes, it is just
Speaker 1: at this point a means to like set up a
Speaker 1: thought that did not need the set up. No, no,
Speaker 1: it's it's extraneous. Why we can't both completely stop using
Speaker 1: language correctly and nothing about economy of language. If you're
Speaker 1: going to be bad at using words, use fewer words,
Speaker 1: thank you, oh my god. And actually that's a great note.
Speaker 1: I used to be very global note. I used to
Speaker 1: be very, very very hard on people misusing literally. But
Speaker 1: I think at this point the work has sort of
Speaker 1: like taken on an additional meaning, which is just saying
Speaker 1: something is amphatic, agreed, it's it's also I mean, I
Speaker 1: grew up on literally and the alanis Morisset, you know,
Speaker 1: cultural confusion around and what that means. Yes, And I
Speaker 1: just feel you know that to me, that's grandfather Dan.
Speaker 1: I understand that's generational. I was listening to a podcast
Speaker 1: that I recorded the other day and the amount that
Speaker 1: I used like and I always overuse, but in this
Speaker 1: one it was every other word, and I was infuriating.
Speaker 1: When you catch yourself doing that, Yeah, I'm just saying, everybody,
Speaker 1: give yourself a little bit of grace because guess what.
Speaker 1: You go back and watch any of my talk show appearances,
Speaker 1: you will be stunned at how often like gets thrown
Speaker 1: in there. And I've just learned to accept it. It's okay.
Speaker 1: People still understand what I'm saying. I forgive it in others,
Speaker 1: and I am working on giving myself the same grace. Absolutely.
Speaker 1: Janine Garofalo when she came on this podcast her I
Speaker 1: don't think so, honey, was people saying like a lot
Speaker 1: and we were kind of just sitting there like, oh,
Speaker 1: so she has never listened to this and thought, oh yeah,
Speaker 1: I'll do what I have the afternoon for you. Had
Speaker 1: she listened to this podcast, she would never come on
Speaker 1: because she doesn't respect us. She doesn't respect us, and
Speaker 1: that's okay, okay. I have always felt very strongly about
Speaker 1: grammar and punctuation and respecting language and stuff. And then
Speaker 1: and then also there is classism in that, right, Like
Speaker 1: it's been pointed out to me that being like a
Speaker 1: gatekeeper and not like listening to someone because of the
Speaker 1: way they speak is inherently classist. I do, though, think
Speaker 1: that if you want to be a content creator using
Speaker 1: language as a medium, you should have respect for it, right.
Speaker 1: I mean, there's got to be some middle ground. But
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't want to be classist, but I
Speaker 1: also want to understand what people are saying to me.
Speaker 1: I feel horrible Sometimes when it's like a typo will
Speaker 1: really throw me off because I'm like, is this a typo?
Speaker 1: Because it's a typo? Is this a new abbreviation? I
Speaker 1: don't understand. Is this a new phrase that's being used.
Speaker 1: Maybe I'm just maybe it's more my problem than anything else.
Speaker 1: I don't want to be classist about this, but I
Speaker 1: am perfectly fine with being agist. Young people are bad
Speaker 1: at a lot of things, and that I am okay
Speaker 1: with saying out loud, yeah, this is the perfect kind
Speaker 1: of ageism. Are you ready? Old people are bad. Young
Speaker 1: people are also bad at The perfect age is the
Speaker 1: age that I am? Yes, that's it. Yes, it's equal opportunity.
Speaker 1: It was a crime when my father felt that way,
Speaker 1: But now that I am my father's age. Isn't that
Speaker 1: funny though? When you start to become that person that's
Speaker 1: like that literally is like these kids, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean? Like I think it started with like I
Speaker 1: don't know, I guess like when I didn't and I'm
Speaker 1: just gonna bravely say this. When I really didn't get
Speaker 1: the Billie Eilish thing at first, I was like, h
Speaker 1: I was like wait what, Like it's because I really
Speaker 1: didn't get it and so so famous like like ubiquitous,
Speaker 1: like parents know who she is. And there I was
Speaker 1: being like, h like a cranky about it, and now
Speaker 1: it is right, But I was thanky about TikTok to
Speaker 1: it first. Now I think it's fun and goofy and
Speaker 1: I laugh my little ass off when I'm on it.
Speaker 1: But like the ways in which like it felt like
Speaker 1: it accelerated past you, you know what I mean, Like
Speaker 1: that's what it is. And but but it's it's funny
Speaker 1: to become like yeah, yeah, get off my lung. I'm
Speaker 1: having this thing where I like, I have learned a
Speaker 1: lot of things from young people. I have learned a
Speaker 1: lot of new ways of thought from young people. Of course,
Speaker 1: I've learned a lot from my elders. I guess my
Speaker 1: only frustration with age groups right now is their inability
Speaker 1: for patients with one another. It's like being a queer
Speaker 1: person in my thirties. I am finding a lot of
Speaker 1: frustration in trying to get the older generation and the
Speaker 1: younger generation to have a conversation with you. I know,
Speaker 1: like they are each digging their heels in the sand
Speaker 1: in opposite directions and not across the board. You know,
Speaker 1: I know plenty of older people who are very open minded.
Speaker 1: I know plenty of young people are extremely mature. But
Speaker 1: I'm talking about the issue we're having in the queer
Speaker 1: community right now and have been having for a while,
Speaker 1: is old people don't want to learn new stuff because
Speaker 1: they think I built this community. How dare you tell
Speaker 1: me there's new terms I don't know? And young people
Speaker 1: are like, but you built the community for me. So
Speaker 1: I'm telling you this is what I want. Why aren't
Speaker 1: you respecting that? And then I'm sitting here in my
Speaker 1: thirties wanting to have sex with everyone. Sam, can't we
Speaker 1: all get along? And they're so tired from the fighting
Speaker 1: and I can't get it up. They can't get it up.
Speaker 1: And you just bought a WEDGEE what. I can't be
Speaker 1: a slat in this modern age. If people can't get along,
Speaker 1: you'll find a way to manage um. All right, So
Speaker 1: Jinks Moon Soon it's time for I don't think so, honey.
Speaker 1: Are you're ready? And remember never forget Jinksman Soon judged
Speaker 1: a lost culture recess. I don't think so, honey. Competition
Speaker 1: at Clusterfest in San Francisco alongside Alaska Thunderfuck, and it
Speaker 1: was one of the great episodes. If you want to
Speaker 1: go back and listen to that episode it was. It
Speaker 1: was won by Rachel Pegram and it iconically features Joel
Speaker 1: Kim boosters I don't think so honey after sex when
Speaker 1: you fart and a little bit of cum comes out,
Speaker 1: which he did say in front of my entire immediate
Speaker 1: family in the great city of San Francisco, and I
Speaker 1: believe it tickled our panelists. So mun come came out.
Speaker 1: This is your I don't think so honey. Your time
Speaker 1: starts now. I don't think so honey about trying to
Speaker 1: blame the safety of children on drag queens when guns
Speaker 1: killed children and Dreka drag queens don't kill children. But
Speaker 1: I think that's preaching to the choir. So I'm gonna
Speaker 1: say I don't think so honey to Jinks right now.
Speaker 1: You don't need to talk about that because everyone already knows.
Speaker 1: What I want to talk about is, I don't think
Speaker 1: so honey. If you're gonna walk down the sidewalk, especially
Speaker 1: in Times Square, you gotta keep up pace moving. You
Speaker 1: don't get just slow down. You don't get to turn
Speaker 1: your head around and look this way. While you're walking
Speaker 1: that way, you don't get to walk forward to a
Speaker 1: breast at a snail space. Some of us are on
Speaker 1: our way to work. Some of us only have an
Speaker 1: hour long dinner break, and we've gotta go get new nails.
Speaker 1: If we've got to get new lashes, a new highlighter,
Speaker 1: and you are slowing us down in every minute fucking counts.
Speaker 1: So if you are gonna walk in New York City,
Speaker 1: if you're gonna walk in Time Square, you're gonna walk
Speaker 1: in a brisk pace. That's just how it goes. If
Speaker 1: you can't handle it, get out of house, kitchen and
Speaker 1: god damn it. You know, it's so funny, like even
Speaker 1: just spending some time in New York, like you become
Speaker 1: this person who really is Like there's rules of the road,
Speaker 1: and in addition, there's rules about escalator etiquette. If you
Speaker 1: are standing on the left side, you have flopped. You
Speaker 1: are doing the wrong thing. The right side is for standing.
Speaker 1: The left side of the escalator is a lane for
Speaker 1: people that want to walk up the escalator. If you
Speaker 1: don't know this by now, you will never never never
Speaker 1: know me, my fucking you. I feel like there is
Speaker 1: a real heterosexual entitlement to couples holding hands on the sidewalks.
Speaker 1: You do not see queer couples standing next to each other,
Speaker 1: no matter how many people are bustling down the street,
Speaker 1: just holding hands, as if it is their god given
Speaker 1: right to block that much of the side. Straight people
Speaker 1: are convinced that everyone should celebrate their relationships at all times.
Speaker 1: Straight you are convinced that we are all so lucky
Speaker 1: to witness their public displays of affection. And it's just
Speaker 1: not so straight people. I don't give it shit. Single file.
Speaker 1: My partner and I walk single file, and that is
Speaker 1: part of why I love him. Thank you. Michael's a
Speaker 1: block ahead of me. That's partnership too. It comes, It
Speaker 1: comes in all forms. You need someone to blaze the trail.
Speaker 1: I've been speaking of blazing the trail. There's two legends,
Speaker 1: legendary legends in the zoom. Um. This was so so
Speaker 1: much fun to have you both. We can't even tell
Speaker 1: you how much you've both just inspired us, made us laugh,
Speaker 1: made us scream, point at television screens and go oh
Speaker 1: my god, and what the fuck? And yes, and stages
Speaker 1: across the damn country. And I'm gonna imagine the world
Speaker 1: are also grateful and thankful. You're both amazing well be
Speaker 1: much two way straight. The feeling is abundantly mutual, outrageously
Speaker 1: so I can only hope to run it into you
Speaker 1: guys at airports, all three of you. Yeah, I would
Speaker 1: love to run into you. I'd be like, where are
Speaker 1: you going? Can we coordinate like a Delta Lounge moment
Speaker 1: at some point? World Delta? Right, no Delta. I was
Speaker 1: just in the Delta Lounge last night and they were
Speaker 1: doing a JFK. Well, it was packed, and so when
Speaker 1: they were doing a lovely moment of there's not just
Speaker 1: one pasta buffet, but two there, I said, thank you,
Speaker 1: thank you. I was just in JFK the other day
Speaker 1: and they did the same thing. They set up that
Speaker 1: little cart right that we're talking about day, a noodle
Speaker 1: cart like in the corner, and the Nathan's hot Dog
Speaker 1: cart somewhere too. Wow, that's what you need everywhere across
Speaker 1: the country. And a Nathan's hot Dog cart, not just
Speaker 1: in New York, but the what the Delta Lounge at
Speaker 1: lag already, I gotta say, top notchy. Have you been
Speaker 1: to the new one in Los Angeles? I mean it's
Speaker 1: not that new No, it's really, it's really. Oh it's great. No,
Speaker 1: it's great, very good, well done, Delta. I ate barbecued
Speaker 1: ribs on a deck. Yeah really, there's that deck where
Speaker 1: you can walk, you can watch play. It's beautiful. Listen.
Speaker 1: I'm uncloud nine right now because I haven't had to
Speaker 1: fly in like six weeks. And every airport, every airport
Speaker 1: is the most gender phobic place. Oh my god, next
Speaker 1: time I do this, I'm gonna do it. I don't
Speaker 1: think so honey about the gender phobia at the t
Speaker 1: s a security check? Oh oh my gosh. Well, every
Speaker 1: all the readers have to go, you know, see Jinks
Speaker 1: on Broadway in Chicago. And in that spirit, bowen. We
Speaker 1: end every episode of this podcast Lost Culture, a critically
Speaker 1: acclaimed podcast which has been noted for the chemistry between
Speaker 1: a toast and it's insight into the entertainment industry with
Speaker 1: a song whatever happened to please may I? And yes,
Speaker 1: thank you? And how charming? No? There, master went last class? Last?
Speaker 1: Oh no, no, just that. Waken and listen. If you
Speaker 1: want more of that, go to the theater. Bye bye,