1 00:00:02,200 --> 00:00:06,720 Speaker 1: Welcome everybody to this episode of Amy and TJ Presents. 2 00:00:06,840 --> 00:00:10,520 Speaker 1: It is day two of the Brian Walsh trial on 3 00:00:10,560 --> 00:00:13,680 Speaker 1: this Tuesday, December second, and DJ and I have a 4 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:16,040 Speaker 1: very special guest with us that we're going to introduce 5 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:19,800 Speaker 1: in just a moment to give us some perspective about. 6 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:23,440 Speaker 2: What we have been seeing and hearing in this trial. 7 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:25,520 Speaker 2: But it's already been a heck of a day in court. 8 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:26,880 Speaker 2: These past two days been. 9 00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:30,200 Speaker 3: A heck of a day. Is if this is setting 10 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:31,800 Speaker 3: us up for what the next couple of weeks is 11 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:33,960 Speaker 3: going to be in this trial, then this is it 12 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:36,040 Speaker 3: is can't miss. This is a can't miss trial. It's 13 00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:39,360 Speaker 3: difficult to talk about it and not a sensationalized way 14 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:41,640 Speaker 3: of some of the things. Just the idea of what 15 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:44,479 Speaker 3: he's accused of, what he's admitting to, and how he's 16 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:46,960 Speaker 3: trying to explain this as a defense. 17 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:49,040 Speaker 2: This is fascinating and for those of you will give 18 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:50,080 Speaker 2: you a quick catch up. 19 00:00:50,159 --> 00:00:53,560 Speaker 1: This is about a fifty year old husband and father 20 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:57,200 Speaker 1: of three who has been charged with first degree murder 21 00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 1: his wife, Anna's body has I've ever been found, but 22 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:05,400 Speaker 1: get this, he's already pleaded guilty to dismembering her body, 23 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:09,760 Speaker 1: to disposing of her body, and he's admitted to lying 24 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:15,039 Speaker 1: about it all to investigators, but he says he did 25 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 1: not murder his wife. And with that, let's bring in 26 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:22,840 Speaker 1: renowned criminal defense attorney Alison Treesel. She may be a 27 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:26,039 Speaker 1: familiar face to some of you crime junkies who are 28 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:29,280 Speaker 1: listening right now, but she's certainly made the rounds and 29 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:30,320 Speaker 1: knows her stuff. 30 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 2: I got this a fun fact about you, Allison. 31 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:37,360 Speaker 1: You have represented more than one thousand clients in your 32 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:41,440 Speaker 1: decades long career who've all been charged with committing serious crimes. 33 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:45,679 Speaker 1: So I know this case almost certainly has had to 34 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:46,480 Speaker 1: have stood. 35 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:46,960 Speaker 2: Out to you. 36 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:50,920 Speaker 4: Yeah. I mean, first of all, this is you're right, 37 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:55,440 Speaker 4: This is one of those cannot miss, not just because 38 00:01:56,160 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 4: the facts and the text messages and the type of 39 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 4: relationship these people had. But then yesterday comes along and 40 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:08,840 Speaker 4: we hear a defense. And TJ brought it up yesterday 41 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:14,040 Speaker 4: that you really don't hear often, but when you have nothing, 42 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:19,600 Speaker 4: this is an actual defense. This is a defense you 43 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:27,079 Speaker 4: only need wonder to believe. And my goodness doesn't have legs. Well, 44 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:30,160 Speaker 4: the case is pretty bad, the pace is bad, and 45 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 4: like you said Amy, I've been doing this for thirty years. 46 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:40,840 Speaker 4: I handle really tough murder cases, and sometimes you feel 47 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:46,200 Speaker 4: like Sisyphus. You are pushing that boulder up the hill 48 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 4: ill the hill is never gonna stop, and any moments 49 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 4: can come crashing down on you. And when you look 50 00:02:54,320 --> 00:03:00,360 Speaker 4: at the searches in this case, the line to the lease, 51 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:05,520 Speaker 4: the evidence that has been found, you say to yourself, 52 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:09,520 Speaker 4: what am I going to do? And Tipton has taken 53 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 4: a horsepoop of a case and turned it into something, 54 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:16,200 Speaker 4: turned it into something. 55 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 3: Okay, And you're talking about Tipton his attorney, Walsh's attorney. 56 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:22,600 Speaker 3: So but we don't want to get too deep into 57 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 3: the evidence, okay, just on the surface. Tell me your 58 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:29,440 Speaker 3: reaction when you hear them lay out in court yesterday, 59 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:32,920 Speaker 3: my defensive rid of her body and we're saying she 60 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 3: died from just sudden, unexplained death. Now the idea there, 61 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:40,480 Speaker 3: first of all, is that his only option? 62 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 4: Yes, I mean, but you know I heard other commentators 63 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 4: who I will disagree with, say, well, why don't you 64 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 4: try and ask for a second degree murder? Why would 65 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:53,640 Speaker 4: you go all or nothing here? Why would you do that? 66 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:57,600 Speaker 4: And the reality is not only do you have the 67 00:03:57,680 --> 00:04:02,120 Speaker 4: things that you mentioned? All right, but he is now 68 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 4: a convicted felon, he's known to lie. The kinds of 69 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:13,440 Speaker 4: evidence that they found against him is so damning, I 70 00:04:13,440 --> 00:04:17,240 Speaker 4: mean so damning. A hack saw with her DNA on it. 71 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:21,640 Speaker 4: I mean, we're talking about facts that jurors shudder at 72 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:26,640 Speaker 4: the idea that you dismember your wife's body. Those kinds 73 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:32,640 Speaker 4: of things make jurors cry, I mean make jurors hate 74 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:36,960 Speaker 4: the defendant. So what are we doing here? What he's 75 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 4: doing is he's saying all those things are true. He 76 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:45,719 Speaker 4: came out and said, the searches are disturbing, they're true. 77 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 4: The lies to the police, they happened. He lied to 78 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 4: the police. At some point, it's going to come out 79 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:55,760 Speaker 4: that he actually has pled guilty to it. I know 80 00:04:55,839 --> 00:04:59,720 Speaker 4: there's some debate right now, but ultimately someone's going to 81 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:03,279 Speaker 4: open that door for the prosecution to walk through. That's 82 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 4: what's going to happen. And so what you have is 83 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:11,960 Speaker 4: back to the basics, and that is they have no 84 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:18,640 Speaker 4: body the motive, which all jurors want to hear. I 85 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 4: think they've got a motive. I think that they're going 86 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 4: to be able to establish that she was having an affair, 87 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:27,000 Speaker 4: he knew about it, and she was going to leave him, 88 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:29,440 Speaker 4: and that is motive. That is all the motive that 89 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:34,200 Speaker 4: a jury really needs. Okay, they've got one hundred thousand 90 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 4: dollars life insurance policy where he's the benefactory excuse me, 91 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:41,480 Speaker 4: a million dollars and he is he has to pay 92 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:43,719 Speaker 4: that court a lot of money. Okay, So you have 93 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:47,040 Speaker 4: all of that, but you don't have a body. And 94 00:05:47,279 --> 00:05:50,760 Speaker 4: the reason that's important is because when you're using a 95 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:55,520 Speaker 4: defense right that this was a natural death, if you 96 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:58,920 Speaker 4: don't have a body, you don't have a corner to 97 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:03,520 Speaker 4: tell the jury what the cause and manner of death was. 98 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:08,599 Speaker 4: You don't have that. So if a when you're saying, look, 99 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:11,800 Speaker 4: she died of natural causes, and you don't have a 100 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:15,359 Speaker 4: corner that can get up and say absolutely not, she 101 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:20,599 Speaker 4: was strangled. Absolutely not before she was dismembered. There's X, Y, 102 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:23,560 Speaker 4: and Z. And by the way, I'm not saying that 103 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:27,039 Speaker 4: they're going to win. I am this is a very 104 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:31,640 Speaker 4: difficult case for the defense to win. This looks like 105 00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:35,840 Speaker 4: by all accounts, a first degree murder case. There is 106 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 4: evidence of premeditation here, and certainly his actions of lying 107 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:45,800 Speaker 4: to the police and going to all these different stores 108 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:49,280 Speaker 4: and buying the hots on, buying all the cleaning stuff 109 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:52,960 Speaker 4: and the fifty pounds you know, I mean of a 110 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 4: baking soda. That really is damning evidence and amy. You're 111 00:06:56,880 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 4: shaking your head, but it's true. I mean, this is 112 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 4: one of those cases where you go, this is as 113 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:06,839 Speaker 4: sadistic and cruel of a case as you could ever imagine. 114 00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 4: She is the mother of his three young children. 115 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 1: And what is even more remarkable, as we've just been 116 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 1: watching these past two days, is to hear Brian Walsh 117 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 1: in those early days. First of all, he doesn't even 118 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:23,400 Speaker 1: he's not even the one who reports his wife missing. 119 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:27,480 Speaker 1: But then when police come to investigate, to hear how 120 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:29,840 Speaker 1: good of a liar he is, because we now know 121 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 1: he is a liar. His attorney said, my client lied, 122 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:37,240 Speaker 1: he lied to authorities, He panicked. But when you actually 123 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 1: hear and the jurors have been listening to Ryan Walsh 124 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:45,360 Speaker 1: in the days after he dismembered his wife's body and 125 00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:49,800 Speaker 1: disposed of it, how cool, calm and collected he is. 126 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:53,960 Speaker 1: He I would have believed him. He was so believable. 127 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:55,040 Speaker 2: He didn't seem. 128 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:58,240 Speaker 1: Nervous or panicked or going into over great detail. He 129 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:02,960 Speaker 1: didn't seem emotional. How do like you heard some of 130 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:06,960 Speaker 1: this being played to the jury. You're a defense attorney, 131 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:14,080 Speaker 1: how do you combat that? Look, I'm sitting listening to 132 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:17,880 Speaker 1: these searches. Okay, I mean I'm sitting listening to these searches. 133 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:23,160 Speaker 1: So not I mean, is it unusual for a defendant 134 00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:24,560 Speaker 1: to lie to the police. 135 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:27,320 Speaker 4: Not at all, Not at all. I mean that that's 136 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:30,240 Speaker 4: that's sort of par for the course, right, And I 137 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:34,480 Speaker 4: always say to people, Look, I can't change what you've 138 00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 4: said in the past, but we're not going to speak 139 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:39,839 Speaker 4: to the police anymore. There's a reason people have a 140 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:43,360 Speaker 4: right to remain silent. I literally would muffle someone. I 141 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:46,440 Speaker 4: would say, we're not you're not talking ever again. Okay, 142 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:51,240 Speaker 4: you're you have you, You've done enough, and now now 143 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:55,520 Speaker 4: we're not going to speak. But I really today was 144 00:08:55,559 --> 00:09:02,560 Speaker 4: so captivating because he's going over by line these searches, 145 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:07,240 Speaker 4: and you brought up a great point yesterday that should 146 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:12,880 Speaker 4: not go unnoticed. And he used the word murder. And 147 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 4: if I'm the prosecutor and I say, wait a minute, 148 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:21,679 Speaker 4: someone who innocently discovers that his wife is dead is 149 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:24,840 Speaker 4: not going to type in the word murder? Are they 150 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:30,040 Speaker 4: He didn't call the police, He didn't call nine one one. 151 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:33,440 Speaker 4: As the prosecutor said, don't leave your common sense at 152 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:37,360 Speaker 4: the door. Don't do it. You. Jurors come in and 153 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:42,360 Speaker 4: they're not They come in with with life experiences. They 154 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:46,040 Speaker 4: come in with a sense of decency and understanding and 155 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:49,520 Speaker 4: asking themselves what would they do? What would be your 156 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 4: immediate reaction? Would your immediate reaction be to call nine 157 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:56,840 Speaker 4: one one? Would your immediate reaction to see what you 158 00:09:56,920 --> 00:10:01,080 Speaker 4: can do to resuscitate her, to call the police, or 159 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:05,080 Speaker 4: you know, all of those things? Would it be? Can 160 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:08,480 Speaker 4: you be charged with murder without a body? Can you 161 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 4: identify a body with broken teeth? What happens to hair 162 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:16,880 Speaker 4: on a dead body? Those types of things are going 163 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:21,640 Speaker 4: to not only make the hairs on the jurors arms 164 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:25,200 Speaker 4: stand up and everywhere else. They're going to say, who 165 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:29,360 Speaker 4: does this? Who does this? An innocent person behaves this way? 166 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:34,120 Speaker 3: Is this to your point? Is this a done deal? 167 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:36,320 Speaker 3: How do you over I don't think it is okay? 168 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:38,960 Speaker 3: You don't think so well? How is your am I 169 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:41,600 Speaker 3: or you as a defense attorney, how do you overcome 170 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:44,240 Speaker 3: those messages? You're talking about, can you identify a body 171 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 3: with broken teeth? He brought up with some of the 172 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:49,600 Speaker 3: messages blood, How do you clean it off a pavement, 173 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 3: off concrete? He used the word murder several times. How 174 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:55,679 Speaker 3: to dispose of a body after murder? How are you, 175 00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 3: as a defense attorney going to tell me in my 176 00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:03,080 Speaker 3: common sense in the box? Yep, I'm supposed to take 177 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:03,920 Speaker 3: that as anything else. 178 00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:07,520 Speaker 4: Okay. So what Tipton did is he took the air 179 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 4: out of the prosecution's tires immediately. Okay. First thing he 180 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:16,040 Speaker 4: does is he said he lied. Yep, he searches, He 181 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:20,960 Speaker 4: owns up to all of that. Okay, So that is 182 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:24,080 Speaker 4: not going to in two or three weeks from now. 183 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:27,080 Speaker 4: That's not going to be shocking to them. The defense 184 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:30,560 Speaker 4: has owned it. They have owned it, okay. So then 185 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:35,720 Speaker 4: the question is going to be can he really prove 186 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 4: this sudden unexplained death? I did in preparing for our podcast, 187 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:46,800 Speaker 4: I looked up sudden unexplained death and in one hundred 188 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:52,160 Speaker 4: thousand cases of deaths in an adult that is Latin 189 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 4: or White, the instant, the probability is like a point 190 00:11:57,200 --> 00:12:01,320 Speaker 4: one sixth probability that that happens Okay, so they've got 191 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 4: to find an expert who's going to say that, No, 192 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:11,000 Speaker 4: I have not examined the body, but I do believe 193 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:15,320 Speaker 4: that sudden, unexplained deaths from somebody who is a normally 194 00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:20,960 Speaker 4: healthy person happened with enough frequency that it is believable. 195 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:25,720 Speaker 4: They've got to overcome the hurdle of is their client 196 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:28,560 Speaker 4: going to testify to this How are they going to 197 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:32,640 Speaker 4: make the nexus? Because there is a question, and this 198 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:38,640 Speaker 4: is specific to Massachusetts law, and it is it is 199 00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:42,760 Speaker 4: sort of a general idea for experts to be able 200 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:48,760 Speaker 4: to testify. They have to be able to explain that 201 00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:52,800 Speaker 4: this is what happened in this case, in this case, 202 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:56,400 Speaker 4: and how do they do that without a body, without 203 00:12:56,440 --> 00:13:00,800 Speaker 4: an autopsy, and without their client testifying. So are they 204 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:03,120 Speaker 4: just going to speculate? And is a judge going to 205 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:06,920 Speaker 4: allow them just to sort of outline sudden desk syndrome 206 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:12,520 Speaker 4: without some nexus to this case. That's an interesting question, 207 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 4: that's an interesting legal question, that's an interesting evidentiary question 208 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:19,920 Speaker 4: of how this expert is going to be able to 209 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:21,480 Speaker 4: get this information in. 210 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:24,920 Speaker 3: You said that does he have to testify? 211 00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:29,880 Speaker 4: He shouldn't because he is going to be skewered on 212 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:35,160 Speaker 4: the stand. And look, I don't think that that art 213 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 4: fraud case is a nothing burger. I think that it 214 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:45,200 Speaker 4: shows a pattern for years of deception, of lies, of 215 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:49,640 Speaker 4: stealing from of doing bad things. I mean here he 216 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:54,760 Speaker 4: was passing off forged artwork to people and essentially stealing 217 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 4: from them. Jurors don't like that he was on house 218 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:05,400 Speaker 4: arrest at the time. So all of these things. As 219 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:08,000 Speaker 4: a defense attorney, you say, how in the world do 220 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:10,600 Speaker 4: I put him on? And can I put him on 221 00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:13,959 Speaker 4: for the sole purpose of talking about how he found 222 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:18,800 Speaker 4: his wife? Well, it doesn't work that way. The prosecution 223 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 4: gets a shot at you, and when you testify, you 224 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:27,160 Speaker 4: don't get to selectively testify. You then open yourself up 225 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:28,840 Speaker 4: to a whole lot of hurt. 226 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:31,080 Speaker 3: Okay, but Alison, what do you do if you say 227 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:33,080 Speaker 3: you can't if you don't have a body, and no 228 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:35,840 Speaker 3: expert can say to examine the body to have sudden 229 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:39,000 Speaker 3: death of being the actual cause of death. He's the 230 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:41,480 Speaker 3: only one that can do this, So how do you 231 00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:42,680 Speaker 3: do it if you don't want to put him on 232 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 3: the stand. But he's the only one that can prove 233 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:44,600 Speaker 3: this point. 234 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 4: Okay, So there are ways there are ways that Welsh 235 00:14:54,200 --> 00:15:00,760 Speaker 4: himself could not testify to the medical idea of sudden, 236 00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:03,560 Speaker 4: unexplained death. He could not do it right. He's not 237 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:09,760 Speaker 4: an expert. The criteria for expert testimony in Massachusetts is 238 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:13,960 Speaker 4: found in Evidence Code Section seven zero two, and they 239 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:19,560 Speaker 4: can testify to their scientific, technical, or other specialized knowledge 240 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:22,480 Speaker 4: that will help the tryer fact in this case, the 241 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:27,239 Speaker 4: jury understand the evidence and determine a fact in issue. 242 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:31,920 Speaker 4: It has to be based on sufficient facts or data. 243 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:39,480 Speaker 4: The testimony is dependent on reliable, reliable principles and methods. 244 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 4: And then the last one is the testimony. The expert 245 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:47,920 Speaker 4: from the has to give testimony that is reliably a 246 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:52,000 Speaker 4: pride to the principles and methods to the facts of 247 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:56,760 Speaker 4: this case. That is the issue. That's the issue that 248 00:15:56,840 --> 00:16:00,480 Speaker 4: the judge is going to have to decide. Much going 249 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:04,720 Speaker 4: to be able to say he can testify without Welsh, 250 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:08,840 Speaker 4: without a body, and without examining a body, without examining 251 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 4: the coroner's report since there is no body, and without 252 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:16,200 Speaker 4: Welsh saying well, this is what I found. Is the 253 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:18,680 Speaker 4: expert going to be able to testify to that? And 254 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:21,600 Speaker 4: even if they do, even if they do, is a 255 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:24,680 Speaker 4: prosecution going to simply get up and say this is 256 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:28,800 Speaker 4: a bunch of poppy cock. Have a body, you don't 257 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:32,000 Speaker 4: have a you don't have a corner telling you what 258 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:34,440 Speaker 4: a manner of death is or a cause of death is. 259 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:39,000 Speaker 4: You've just simply made this up. So TJ, is this 260 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:42,240 Speaker 4: the best case in the world? No? 261 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:45,000 Speaker 2: Would you take it? Allison? Would you take this case? 262 00:16:45,920 --> 00:17:01,040 Speaker 4: Yes? Look, I believe in the criminal justice system. I 263 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:04,960 Speaker 4: believe that everyone has a right to be defended. Amy 264 00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:08,600 Speaker 4: do I win cases like this? Not usually? Not usually, 265 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:11,840 Speaker 4: But everyone has a right to be defended. They do. 266 00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:16,440 Speaker 4: And for our system to work, you deserve the zealous 267 00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:20,560 Speaker 4: advocacy and that is what Tipton is getting him giving him. Now, 268 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:22,960 Speaker 4: does that mean he's going to win? Does that mean 269 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:26,639 Speaker 4: that he sits there as a defendant in a murder 270 00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:29,760 Speaker 4: case and looks as smug as he does. I would 271 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:32,520 Speaker 4: be kicking him a few times under council table, just 272 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:34,160 Speaker 4: so you know. And I've done that. 273 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 1: And I'm curious because yes, there are cameras in this 274 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:40,080 Speaker 1: courtroom which we haven't seen for some time. A lot 275 00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:42,720 Speaker 1: of these high profile cases we've been covering over the years, 276 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:45,280 Speaker 1: most of them do not have cameras in the courtroom. 277 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:50,040 Speaker 1: This one is really unusual and it's been riveting. We've 278 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:52,600 Speaker 1: been watching on four TV now for the last couple 279 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:55,199 Speaker 1: of days, and yes, jurors, we get to see what 280 00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:58,639 Speaker 1: jurors get to see. We get to see Brian Walsh 281 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:02,520 Speaker 1: sitting there listening to him himself, lying to police, listening 282 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:07,360 Speaker 1: to an investigator rattle off all of his internet searches, 283 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:10,639 Speaker 1: and see his body language and see how he's reacting, 284 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:12,680 Speaker 1: which has not been much at all. 285 00:18:13,359 --> 00:18:18,880 Speaker 2: How do you, as a defense attorney explain those searches? 286 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:21,639 Speaker 1: I mean it has I have never and I know 287 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:24,720 Speaker 1: you obviously have a tremendous amount of trial experience. Have 288 00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:28,800 Speaker 1: you ever, It's almost as if he was breadcrumbing the police. 289 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:30,680 Speaker 4: A roadmap he's left. 290 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:35,560 Speaker 1: He left an exact like from from the timeline where 291 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:39,080 Speaker 1: his head was, what he was thinking about, how he 292 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:43,080 Speaker 1: was trying to cover up everything. It's almost as if 293 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:45,720 Speaker 1: we were there with him, minute by minute. 294 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:49,320 Speaker 4: Look, I've certainly had text messages, and I have a case, 295 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:54,720 Speaker 4: I have a murder case where text messages before the 296 00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:59,000 Speaker 4: death are very valuable. They're very useful because they do 297 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:03,000 Speaker 4: talk about the state of mind of both parties. At 298 00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 4: times they do explain a relationship. They are a mirror 299 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:15,600 Speaker 4: into the mind and the soul of the individual that's 300 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 4: doing those searches or sending those text messages. And here 301 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:24,440 Speaker 4: it is dark. It is very very dark. And let 302 00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:30,199 Speaker 4: me say that the Instagram search of the man that 303 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:32,840 Speaker 4: she was having an affair with will prove to be 304 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:38,560 Speaker 4: crucial because if he knew that they had a relationship. 305 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:42,719 Speaker 4: Going back to what TJ said yesterday, motive, motive, motive. 306 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:47,840 Speaker 4: It's not necessary in a case. The prosecution never has 307 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:51,320 Speaker 4: to show a motive, but jurors always want to know 308 00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:55,040 Speaker 4: the why. They always want to know the why. And 309 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:59,159 Speaker 4: if the prosecution can give them a why, and they 310 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:04,760 Speaker 4: don't have a boughty, that's important. That's really really important. 311 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:11,359 Speaker 4: And these text messages, these I mean I'm staring at them, 312 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:14,080 Speaker 4: you know, and you've got what is the best state 313 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:18,040 Speaker 4: to divorce for a man? I mean, you know that 314 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:21,919 Speaker 4: he's thinking about these things. He's thinking about these things 315 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:27,840 Speaker 4: soon after she has not heard from how long before 316 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:31,120 Speaker 4: a body starts to smell? I mean things like this 317 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:36,159 Speaker 4: that talk about where his head is. I mean his 318 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:39,560 Speaker 4: tipton can do his best of job as he can 319 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:44,640 Speaker 4: at tiptoeing around. He's frantic. He's frantic, he's frantic. These 320 00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:46,960 Speaker 4: aren't just frantic, these are sinister. 321 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:50,360 Speaker 3: And they went on for hours, and some of them 322 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:53,560 Speaker 3: they like rapid fire. They were showing with the timestamps 323 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:55,800 Speaker 3: of these. I want to ask you, I guess I'm 324 00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:57,560 Speaker 3: putting you to the fire a little bit here, and 325 00:20:57,600 --> 00:20:59,719 Speaker 3: that I am so curious because we couldn't figure out 326 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:02,040 Speaker 3: a way then anybody could defend this guy. But if 327 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:06,920 Speaker 3: the jury asked you, as the defense attorney for Brian Walsh, 328 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:12,080 Speaker 3: to explain his Google search, is it possible to clean 329 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:16,199 Speaker 3: DNA off a knife? The best way to dispose of 330 00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:20,359 Speaker 3: body parts? And he looked up someone called Patrick Kearney, 331 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:25,760 Speaker 3: the trash bag killer. Now, if a juror asked you, Alison, 332 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 3: those three things, is this. 333 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:32,359 Speaker 4: Before or after I crawl under my desk? 334 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:33,000 Speaker 3: Okay? 335 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:34,800 Speaker 4: When is that? When is that? 336 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:37,280 Speaker 3: Okay? If that's the best strategy, you can own it. 337 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:41,320 Speaker 4: You own it that. You have to own it that 338 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:45,639 Speaker 4: he did it. And then in a in what Tipton did. 339 00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:49,959 Speaker 4: And I'm telling you I have been doing these cases. 340 00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:54,840 Speaker 4: I am a I am a crime junkie. Okay, I 341 00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:59,960 Speaker 4: love criminal cases. I represent criminals or alleged criminals. All 342 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:07,960 Speaker 4: they I watched Dateline. I know this stuff well. And 343 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:15,520 Speaker 4: what Tipton did. No matter what other podcasters are saying 344 00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:22,080 Speaker 4: or legal commentators are saying, they do not understand the 345 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:26,399 Speaker 4: brilliant behind this defense. And I mean, it is it 346 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:31,440 Speaker 4: gonna work? Well? On one hand, you have the most 347 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:35,320 Speaker 4: damning searches I've ever seen in my life. You have 348 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:39,080 Speaker 4: ten trash bags full of evidence. You have him going 349 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:43,360 Speaker 4: to home depot and buying hack saws, and I mean 350 00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:46,200 Speaker 4: that is as bad as it gets, right, I mean, 351 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:49,040 Speaker 4: you're you have he he is a he is a 352 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:55,159 Speaker 4: bad criminal. He left the receipt. Okay, he left the receipt. 353 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:57,160 Speaker 4: I mean when they're getting you know, I mean you're 354 00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:00,280 Speaker 4: talking about breadcrumbs. I mean, he might as well well 355 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:02,960 Speaker 4: have just laid out all the evidence right there. That 356 00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:07,119 Speaker 4: is tough stuff to overcome. But when you are defending 357 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:12,520 Speaker 4: somebody and it's a really really bad case, and you've 358 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:16,440 Speaker 4: given the jury and you need one TJ. You need one. 359 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:21,159 Speaker 4: I need to convince everybody. I need to convince one. 360 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:25,400 Speaker 4: And one person says, well, all of this looks horrible. 361 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:29,560 Speaker 4: All of it looks horrible. But they haven't told me 362 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:30,920 Speaker 4: how she died. 363 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:36,119 Speaker 3: What do you think the response is he told me 364 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:40,000 Speaker 3: with the knife and the murder and the blood. Okay, 365 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:44,320 Speaker 3: the desk, you're you're my eleven of twelve. You're in 366 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:47,840 Speaker 3: the eleven of twelve. And by the way, I am 367 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:50,320 Speaker 3: not saying that he's not going to get convicted. I mean, 368 00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:54,439 Speaker 3: but I don't want people to think that this is 369 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:56,639 Speaker 3: a slam dunk for the people. 370 00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:00,000 Speaker 4: They don't have a body. You don't have to prosecut 371 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:03,360 Speaker 4: with a body, and in Massachusetts you don't need a body, 372 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:08,080 Speaker 4: and they actually have a jury instruction about that where 373 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:10,520 Speaker 4: you don't need a body. You have to show the 374 00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:14,520 Speaker 4: circumstances that this person is dead, and he's already admitted. 375 00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:17,240 Speaker 4: And by the way, that's one way when it comes 376 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:22,400 Speaker 4: down to has he pled to this? Has he has 377 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:26,640 Speaker 4: he pled to these two charges that it may come 378 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:29,440 Speaker 4: in because they don't have to they have to prove 379 00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:33,920 Speaker 4: that they're that this person is dead. Okay, But at 380 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:39,040 Speaker 4: the end of the day, the prosecutors have to show 381 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:42,520 Speaker 4: that he killed her and that she didn't die of 382 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:46,639 Speaker 4: natural causes, which, by the way, I gave you the statistics, Okay, 383 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:49,840 Speaker 4: I gave you the statistics, and they need to find 384 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:53,000 Speaker 4: an expert who's going to get up there and say, oh, yeah, 385 00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:56,919 Speaker 4: this definitely happens. This happens. One of the things that 386 00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:00,159 Speaker 4: I also did is I look to see how, oh 387 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:05,800 Speaker 4: how many other cases in Massachusetts where sudden unexplained death 388 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:09,679 Speaker 4: has been used and hasn't been successful. And there is 389 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:14,800 Speaker 4: a two thousand and eight case Commonwealth be George Naughty 390 00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:20,159 Speaker 4: and he's accused of murdering his mother. It wasn't a 391 00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:22,640 Speaker 4: sudden death case, but he argued that his mother died 392 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:27,280 Speaker 4: of natural causes, specifically heart disease, and he was found 393 00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:31,240 Speaker 4: guilty in the first degree. The crooks of his defense 394 00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:34,040 Speaker 4: was that she was not murdered, but died of natural 395 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:38,439 Speaker 4: causes related to her heart, and it was outlined in 396 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:44,520 Speaker 4: the council's opening statement. He did very similar things like, look, 397 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:48,080 Speaker 4: you know there were medical conditions, this can happen. Jury 398 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:50,879 Speaker 4: didn't believe it. It has been used, it was unsuccessful. 399 00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:54,119 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean there's a lot of defenses out there, 400 00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:55,360 Speaker 1: including self. 401 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:57,120 Speaker 2: Defense, and they very rarely work. 402 00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:00,159 Speaker 1: As you know, I'm curious when it comes to the 403 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:03,199 Speaker 1: motive you mentioned, how important that is going to be 404 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:06,480 Speaker 1: especially when you don't have a body, and we are 405 00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:13,920 Speaker 1: expecting Anna's lover to testify in this case, what are you? 406 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:17,000 Speaker 2: I actually am. 407 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:19,760 Speaker 1: On the edge of my seat waiting for that day 408 00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:24,240 Speaker 1: when he takes the stand, because that is going to 409 00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:28,960 Speaker 1: be I would imagine a pretty tremendous day for the prosecution. 410 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:33,880 Speaker 4: I'm not sure, and I'm going to tell you why 411 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:39,840 Speaker 4: I'm not sure. I'm not sure because he didn't know 412 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:46,760 Speaker 4: Brian Welsh. He doesn't know what Brian Welsh knew about 413 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:52,960 Speaker 4: the relationship. So in terms of a motive, he can say, yes, 414 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:56,760 Speaker 4: we had this affair, Yes we kept it secret, Yes 415 00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:01,879 Speaker 4: we did all of these things. But unless he says, 416 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:05,760 Speaker 4: she told me that she told him about the affair. 417 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:10,080 Speaker 4: I knew that this guy was cyberstalking me, this guy 418 00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:15,160 Speaker 4: called me. This guy you know she was planning to leave. 419 00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:17,600 Speaker 4: She told me that she told him she was planning 420 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:21,560 Speaker 4: to leave. All of those things. He may say we 421 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:24,239 Speaker 4: had an affair, but he said she said, I'm never 422 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:27,200 Speaker 4: leaving my husband, and let's not tell anybody about it. 423 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:29,600 Speaker 4: That doesn't get the prosecution anywhere. 424 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:33,400 Speaker 3: They don't have a body, How do they prove she's dead? 425 00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:36,160 Speaker 3: How do they prove how she died. 426 00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:39,159 Speaker 4: I guess, well, okay, so that's the thing, right, So 427 00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:45,240 Speaker 4: he pled, right, he pled and they're going to have 428 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:49,520 Speaker 4: to That's why I was saying that that those guilty 429 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:52,359 Speaker 4: please and I want to talk a little bit about that, 430 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:55,760 Speaker 4: because it's really fascinating to me that they sort of 431 00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:58,960 Speaker 4: bifurcated this case and had him plead guilty to certain 432 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:03,000 Speaker 4: things and not others. And maybe they were hoping that 433 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:05,920 Speaker 4: by pleading guilty to that it wouldn't become a central 434 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:09,680 Speaker 4: focus of the case. And the judge has not made 435 00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:12,440 Speaker 4: that ruling yet on how much of that comes in. 436 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:15,920 Speaker 4: But unless I had and this is where I may 437 00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:22,119 Speaker 4: have done things differently, unless I had a stipulation or 438 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:26,560 Speaker 4: an agreement that those were not going to come in 439 00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:30,080 Speaker 4: as evidence at some point, that they were not going 440 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:35,040 Speaker 4: to be thoroughly discussed that guilty plead. I'm struggling looking 441 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:38,200 Speaker 4: a little bit because they've owned up to the fact 442 00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:42,400 Speaker 4: that he lied, right, They've owned up to other parts 443 00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:47,200 Speaker 4: of this case. So the is it going to do 444 00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:52,160 Speaker 4: him any favors by pleading guilty? Is it something that 445 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:55,440 Speaker 4: they can just gloss over? Now? I'm not sure. We 446 00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:58,160 Speaker 4: have two more weeks of this case to go, and 447 00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:01,160 Speaker 4: the prosecution does have to pre that she's dead. 448 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:04,440 Speaker 3: Okay, But how do you go about proving how she 449 00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:07,400 Speaker 3: do if everybody's assuming, yes, she's dead. But how isn't 450 00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:10,000 Speaker 3: that a key part of the case. Have to prove 451 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:11,040 Speaker 3: how she does? 452 00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:15,080 Speaker 4: That's my point. That's my point. There's two separate issues here. 453 00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:20,920 Speaker 4: One is she dead, okay, which he admits to hacking 454 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:26,040 Speaker 4: her up and dismembering her. He admits to that, But 455 00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:31,520 Speaker 4: the prosecution for a first degree murder has got to 456 00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:37,480 Speaker 4: explain that he killed her. They've got to explain the 457 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:43,120 Speaker 4: cause and manner of death. That's why Tipton, that's why 458 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:47,360 Speaker 4: Tipton had I mean, Tipton had one of the greatest 459 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:50,479 Speaker 4: days of his career because he has a stinker of 460 00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:53,320 Speaker 4: a case and we're talking about it now. 461 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:56,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, And what main headlines is, how do you have 462 00:29:56,800 --> 00:30:00,760 Speaker 1: a client, how do you have a man admit to dismemorying, dismembering, 463 00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:06,320 Speaker 1: and disposing of your wife's body and completely misleading investigators 464 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:09,920 Speaker 1: into sending them on this massive search and manhunt for 465 00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:13,480 Speaker 1: your wife who you already know is dead because you 466 00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:18,240 Speaker 1: admit to disposing of her body. That is a crazy 467 00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:21,120 Speaker 1: thing to admit that, but then to say, but I'm 468 00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:22,120 Speaker 1: not guilty of murder. 469 00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:24,360 Speaker 2: That was the first thing that caught our eyes. Obviously 470 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:25,600 Speaker 2: when this case came out. 471 00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:27,840 Speaker 4: By the way, I had a middle of the night 472 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:30,840 Speaker 4: thought about this case, mid the night thought, and it 473 00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 4: was this. One of the problems with Brian taking the 474 00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:38,920 Speaker 4: stand is, if I'm the prosecutor, I say, right, you 475 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:43,040 Speaker 4: chopped her up? Where is she? Where is she now? 476 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:49,040 Speaker 4: The thing is he can't ever tell them where she 477 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:55,320 Speaker 4: is because if they can find her, and if they 478 00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:59,800 Speaker 4: can do an autopsy on her, no matter how badly 479 00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:03,200 Speaker 4: he composed, she is. And we see this in the 480 00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:06,560 Speaker 4: David case right where they're saying she had been her boy, 481 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:10,600 Speaker 4: her bad her body was badly decomposed, but the coroner 482 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:12,280 Speaker 4: is able to piece it together. And we have that 483 00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:15,360 Speaker 4: with a lot of old cold cases where they exhume 484 00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:18,600 Speaker 4: bodies and do all of that stuff. If they do that, 485 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:21,800 Speaker 4: what if they find what the manner of death is? 486 00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:24,520 Speaker 4: What what if they find that it was actually strangulation, 487 00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:27,360 Speaker 4: or it was a gunshot, or it was you know, 488 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:31,520 Speaker 4: it was cutster, all of those things. He can never 489 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:32,880 Speaker 4: tell them where the body is. 490 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:36,720 Speaker 3: Oh, he can't get on the stand. He absolutely cannot. No, No, 491 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:39,120 Speaker 3: isn't that question one from the prose of you? 492 00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:40,280 Speaker 4: What? I? 493 00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:43,360 Speaker 2: Because how can he admit to having that? 494 00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:45,440 Speaker 4: What's the first thing he's gonna say. I'm not telling 495 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:47,240 Speaker 4: you I don't like that question? 496 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:50,440 Speaker 3: Next and it's not going to allow that. Okay, last, 497 00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:52,280 Speaker 3: this will be the last thing for me. Actually, and 498 00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:54,560 Speaker 3: this we talked about this a lot with the ditty case. 499 00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:56,800 Speaker 3: Even though there were no cameras, we got a sense 500 00:31:56,880 --> 00:32:00,040 Speaker 3: of just how good Mark Acnophilo was. We got a 501 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:03,160 Speaker 3: lot of reports about his personality and even the jurors 502 00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:06,120 Speaker 3: were laughing and whatnot watching the opening statements and watching 503 00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:08,880 Speaker 3: the trial today, the prosecutors look, they had their own tone, 504 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:11,440 Speaker 3: but it's not necessarily entertaining. It's not on. It's gonna 505 00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:13,160 Speaker 3: make you jump out of your seat. And one of 506 00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:17,120 Speaker 3: the prosecutors today she was even questioning in such a 507 00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:19,400 Speaker 3: way that it was dragging and she was not keeping 508 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:22,800 Speaker 3: up with her own notes and right, but Tipton, Yes 509 00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:26,080 Speaker 3: to your point. Alim Tipton got up yesterday. The first 510 00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:29,240 Speaker 3: words out of his mouth and I yeah, shouted into Robot. 511 00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:31,440 Speaker 3: This dude is going to be a star for the 512 00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:35,160 Speaker 3: next two weeks, hands in his pocket, head down, speaking extemporaneously. 513 00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:37,560 Speaker 3: How big of a deal is it to have a 514 00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:40,600 Speaker 3: tipt in it? And his personality in that court remote trip? 515 00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:42,360 Speaker 4: All right, I'm going to tell you an important story 516 00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:43,680 Speaker 4: about it. But I'm going to tell you that the 517 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:50,760 Speaker 4: prosecution she was monotone, and she shouldn't have been, because 518 00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:55,160 Speaker 4: I would have been wait a minute, he did a 519 00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:59,760 Speaker 4: search on is it better to throw crime scene clothes 520 00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:04,240 Speaker 4: away or wash them? I would have emphasized crime scene. 521 00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:09,360 Speaker 4: So the jury heard that. Now the answers, the answers 522 00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:13,000 Speaker 4: may be enough, and their case may be enough. But 523 00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:14,800 Speaker 4: this is the story that I'm going to tell you. 524 00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:18,120 Speaker 4: I was president of the criminal Court bar in Los Angeles, 525 00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:21,040 Speaker 4: and we you know, we've had great speakers, but the 526 00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:25,000 Speaker 4: best speaker we ever had was a sign language interpreter. 527 00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:28,760 Speaker 4: And the reason that she was the best speaker we've 528 00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:31,840 Speaker 4: ever had is because the only people that are ever 529 00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:36,240 Speaker 4: allowed into a jury room while they're deliberating are sign 530 00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:41,520 Speaker 4: language interpreters. Okay, And so she had a front row 531 00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:46,920 Speaker 4: seat to hundreds and hundreds of jury deliberations. And do 532 00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:51,240 Speaker 4: you know what she said? They talk about Uh, the 533 00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:58,880 Speaker 4: clothes that people wear, how the defendant is smug or 534 00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:06,920 Speaker 4: smiles or or looks guilty or cries, and the lawyer's performance. 535 00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:13,600 Speaker 4: The lawyer's performance. So, to answer your question, it matters now. 536 00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:18,440 Speaker 4: There may be so much overwhelming evidence that the prosecution 537 00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:22,520 Speaker 4: can stay monotone and it is their job just to 538 00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:27,600 Speaker 4: present the facts we all. I mean, look, prosecutors aren't 539 00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:30,719 Speaker 4: known to be flashy. That's not their mo and I 540 00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:35,440 Speaker 4: get it, but she missed key points today when she's 541 00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:39,080 Speaker 4: going through the most damning part of their case. I mean, 542 00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:42,600 Speaker 4: how are you not talking about can you throw body 543 00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:47,600 Speaker 4: parts away? You know, can you put body parts in ammonia? 544 00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:50,200 Speaker 4: Like I would have repeated it, and I would have 545 00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:56,160 Speaker 4: emphasized those those searches that are so best ways to 546 00:34:56,320 --> 00:35:00,800 Speaker 4: dispose of a body after a murder. That's what I 547 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:01,560 Speaker 4: would have done. 548 00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:05,319 Speaker 1: Yes, it's so interesting to have her be reading the 549 00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:09,680 Speaker 1: page number, then get lost, then be flipping. It takes 550 00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:15,520 Speaker 1: away from the inherent drama of the searches themselves, and 551 00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:18,160 Speaker 1: now I'm feeling befuddled and confused, and it really does 552 00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:21,000 Speaker 1: take away some of the significance. I told we were 553 00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:24,680 Speaker 1: both saying that today listening to that. So this trial 554 00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:26,759 Speaker 1: still had they said two to three weeks, we're only 555 00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:30,920 Speaker 1: on day two. What are you looking I don't want 556 00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:32,880 Speaker 1: to say looking most forward to, but what are you 557 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:34,040 Speaker 1: looking to in this. 558 00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:35,600 Speaker 2: Trial that you think will be the moment? 559 00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:39,000 Speaker 1: I mean for this person who right now, obviously we 560 00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:41,439 Speaker 1: have no legal expertise, but I'm already like, I feel 561 00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:43,440 Speaker 1: like you could rest your case after today. 562 00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:48,719 Speaker 4: What else are we going to be I'm going to 563 00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:52,799 Speaker 4: be interested in how the defense cross examines any law 564 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:56,360 Speaker 4: enforcement that was that touched the Karen Reid case. Okay, 565 00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:59,359 Speaker 4: I'm going to be very interested in that because they're 566 00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:01,400 Speaker 4: going to hammer them for that. They're going to hammer 567 00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:03,960 Speaker 4: him for that. Okay. I mean we all know in 568 00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:08,000 Speaker 4: Massachusetts that was a black eye on law enforcement the 569 00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:11,880 Speaker 4: entire case. Okay, So any law enforcement officer, you already 570 00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:15,600 Speaker 4: have one who was in charge of collecting some evidence, Okay, 571 00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:17,440 Speaker 4: so I'm going to go after them for that. I 572 00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:21,560 Speaker 4: want to hear what this defense attorney Tipton is going 573 00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:23,799 Speaker 4: to do with them, because that is something that is 574 00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:26,000 Speaker 4: fair game that you're going to talk about. Okay, that's 575 00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:30,799 Speaker 4: number one. But I'm also very very keen to hear. 576 00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:33,759 Speaker 4: I don't think that Brian Well should justify, So I'm 577 00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:35,800 Speaker 4: not going to address that until we know whether or 578 00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:39,440 Speaker 4: not audio is But I want to know what the defense's 579 00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:42,880 Speaker 4: expert is going to say, and that's not going to 580 00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:45,200 Speaker 4: come for weeks. It's not going to come for weeks. 581 00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:50,839 Speaker 4: But my goodness, how is this expert who has nobody, 582 00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:55,480 Speaker 4: who has no autopsy report, who has nothing but the 583 00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:58,520 Speaker 4: word of someone that's not going to testify, going to 584 00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:00,680 Speaker 4: explain that and make it believable? 585 00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:02,200 Speaker 3: Wow? 586 00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:07,120 Speaker 1: Well, we will be watching and listening as well, Alison Triesel. 587 00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:13,279 Speaker 1: We so appreciate your perspective on this, and actually I 588 00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:16,720 Speaker 1: cannot believe what we're hearing already. So I know someone 589 00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:20,480 Speaker 1: as seasoned as you also saying those searches were probably 590 00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:23,080 Speaker 1: the most damning searches you've ever seen. 591 00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:28,440 Speaker 4: Ever, we'll try it. Ever, I mean, other than a confession, 592 00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:31,799 Speaker 4: other than a Retten out, I mean, maybe this is 593 00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:34,920 Speaker 4: better than a confession, because you can't even say it 594 00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:38,480 Speaker 4: was a coarse confession for his searches, and he can't 595 00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:40,520 Speaker 4: blame his two four six year old on it. 596 00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:43,239 Speaker 3: Good point, exactly, exactly, right point. 597 00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:45,480 Speaker 1: Well, we would love to check back in with you 598 00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:50,359 Speaker 1: because we know you're watching just as feverishly as we are, 599 00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:53,880 Speaker 1: and so many others following this case. But Alison Triesel, 600 00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:56,880 Speaker 1: thank you so so much for being on the podcast, 601 00:37:57,040 --> 00:37:58,560 Speaker 1: and we certainly hope you come back soon. 602 00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:00,000 Speaker 4: Have a great day, everybody. 603 00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:00,200 Speaker 3: Eight