1 00:00:00,960 --> 00:00:03,440 Speaker 1: Hello, everybody, it's Josh and for this week's Select, I've 2 00:00:03,520 --> 00:00:08,320 Speaker 1: chosen our twenty thirteen episode on History's Greatest Traders. Turns 3 00:00:08,360 --> 00:00:11,399 Speaker 1: out history is rife with treacherous people, and if there's 4 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:14,240 Speaker 1: any lesson to learn from this episode, it's be careful 5 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:17,640 Speaker 1: who you cross, because once your name is associated with treachery, 6 00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:20,599 Speaker 1: it turns out that that stays pretty sticky. It's tough 7 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:21,200 Speaker 1: to get rid of. 8 00:00:22,079 --> 00:00:33,120 Speaker 2: Enjoy Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio. 9 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:38,920 Speaker 1: Hey, and welcome to the podcast on Josh Clark. There's 10 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:45,920 Speaker 1: Charles w Chuck Bryant. So, Chuck, Yeah, I have a 11 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:46,559 Speaker 1: story for you. 12 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 3: All right, let's hear it. Come back with me, wayback machine. 13 00:00:51,760 --> 00:01:05,240 Speaker 4: Sure, okay, A couple hours ago. 14 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:09,039 Speaker 1: Yeah, so here we are. It's December twenty second, nineteen 15 00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 1: seventy two. Oh yeah, something really bad is about to happen. 16 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:13,680 Speaker 1: It sit down in front of this TV. 17 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:14,319 Speaker 3: Okay. 18 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 1: Our good friend and hero, Peter Brady is trying out 19 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:21,399 Speaker 1: for the school play. Yeah, it's a story of the 20 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:24,920 Speaker 1: American Revolution. I remember that he tries out for George Washington, 21 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:27,640 Speaker 1: but he doesn't get it. And in fact, the name 22 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:29,760 Speaker 1: of this episode that we're sitting here watching on this 23 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:34,520 Speaker 1: nice brown and orange shag carpeting is called Everybody Can't 24 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:37,920 Speaker 1: Be George Washington. Peter doesn't get the part of George Washington, 25 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:41,240 Speaker 1: but he does get another very important part, the part 26 00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:45,160 Speaker 1: of Benedict Arnold. Well, at first he's like, hey, it's 27 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:47,920 Speaker 1: a part, it's a speaking part. I'm pretty happy. I'm 28 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 1: going to do my best. 29 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:50,880 Speaker 3: I was a tree in my last six plays, right, 30 00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 3: This is. 31 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:56,640 Speaker 1: A huge step up for him, until his classmates point 32 00:01:56,680 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 1: out that Benedict Donald was a trader, and since Peter's 33 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:03,240 Speaker 1: playing a trader, he must be some sort of trader too. 34 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:06,360 Speaker 1: So basically the whole school turns on him because he's 35 00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 1: playing Benedict. 36 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:09,120 Speaker 3: Donald, which is really kind of silly. 37 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 1: It is very silly. And of course Peter tries to 38 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:18,120 Speaker 1: get out of the play again and again, yeah, affecting laryngitis, 39 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:21,600 Speaker 1: pretending he has a limp all of this stuff, saying 40 00:02:21,639 --> 00:02:22,640 Speaker 1: he forgets his lines. 41 00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:24,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I remember that. 42 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:27,519 Speaker 1: And finally successful, and then his dad points out that 43 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:31,000 Speaker 1: he has turned into a trader. Now Peter against the 44 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:32,360 Speaker 1: whole cast. 45 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:34,400 Speaker 3: Don't tell me. He had a lesson for him, and 46 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:35,760 Speaker 3: he sat him down and had a talking to. 47 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:37,840 Speaker 1: It was a good one. Yeah, it was a good one. 48 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:41,320 Speaker 1: And so Peter goes in and plays Benedict Donald and 49 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:42,120 Speaker 1: knocks it out of. 50 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:43,919 Speaker 3: The park and learned a lesson in the process. 51 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:48,959 Speaker 1: But the whole premise of this episode of Brady Bunch 52 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:52,880 Speaker 1: is that Peter was suffering from a smear campaign started 53 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 1: two hundred years before by George Washington, and it was 54 00:02:56,639 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 1: so successful that even today, you can get a rise 55 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 1: out of some by calling them Benedict Donald if they've 56 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:03,720 Speaker 1: done something traitorous. 57 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:07,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, and we've learned there are quite a few synonyms 58 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:10,160 Speaker 3: with trader that were in fact notorious traders, Like if 59 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:14,480 Speaker 3: you call someone a Judas or a Benedict Donald or 60 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:17,639 Speaker 3: what quisling? Yeah, that might be popular in some parts 61 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:18,000 Speaker 3: of the world. 62 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:21,400 Speaker 1: Right, this is the USA. Sure, so we call people 63 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:22,359 Speaker 1: Benedict Donald's. 64 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 3: That's right. 65 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:27,600 Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about this. Let's talk about Benedict Donald 66 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:28,079 Speaker 1: to start. 67 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:29,960 Speaker 3: Okay, Well, you know, first of all, we should point 68 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 3: out that this is a curated show from our buddy 69 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 3: Sam t Garden. 70 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:37,000 Speaker 1: This is the Summer of Sam. 71 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:39,840 Speaker 3: Then, yeah, we're continuing into our second Summer of Sam. 72 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:42,240 Speaker 3: And for those of you that don't know. Sam is 73 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:45,680 Speaker 3: a local fan of ours and a good kid, and 74 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 3: he's actually on our TV show. 75 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:49,920 Speaker 1: He was in an episode, the Make It Rain episode. 76 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:53,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, is one of our softball teammates. And Sam's a 77 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:55,160 Speaker 3: good guy and he sends in great ideas, so we 78 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 3: like to highlight them when we do them. 79 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:02,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, so summer Sam, Hey, Sam, hope you're 80 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:06,240 Speaker 1: doing well. Buddy. Were talking about bened mac donald and 81 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:09,160 Speaker 1: why there was such a smear campaign against him, and 82 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:13,320 Speaker 1: it turns out rightfully so, although possibly I think a 83 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:16,159 Speaker 1: lot of Arnold's side of the story has been lost 84 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:16,760 Speaker 1: to history. 85 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:20,120 Speaker 3: Well. Yeah, and coincidentally or not coincidentally, some of these 86 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:23,800 Speaker 3: traders that we're going to mention today, history is born 87 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 3: out that they may not have been traders. Yeah, but 88 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:27,240 Speaker 3: been an Donald definitely was. 89 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:31,080 Speaker 1: So he was a document and trader. Yeah, as traitorous 90 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 1: and treasonous as you can get, as far as in 91 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:35,560 Speaker 1: the context of war. 92 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:38,840 Speaker 3: Yeah. So early on in life things started out pretty well. 93 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:43,599 Speaker 3: He was born into some wealth, but his family, specifically 94 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:47,000 Speaker 3: his father, squandered their fortune with some bad business dealings. 95 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:48,280 Speaker 3: Apparently he was quite a drinker. 96 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 1: Oh, you turned into the town drunk. 97 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:51,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, well that'll do it. 98 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:53,159 Speaker 1: They lost their family estate. 99 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:57,159 Speaker 3: Yeah, they lost their dough. Three of his sisters are sorry, 100 00:04:57,160 --> 00:04:59,840 Speaker 3: siblings died from yellow fever. He had to drop out 101 00:04:59,839 --> 00:05:00,440 Speaker 3: of school. 102 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 1: He became an apothecary. 103 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:05,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, so things weren't like Rosie for the guy, although 104 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:07,839 Speaker 3: he did quite well later on in the military. 105 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 1: Well, he did quite well even before that as a merchant. 106 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 1: And actually, by the age of twenty two, was able 107 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:16,080 Speaker 1: to buy back his family's estate. Oh really, which he 108 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:17,720 Speaker 1: then turned around and sold it a profit. 109 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:19,600 Speaker 3: Well, good for him. 110 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:22,680 Speaker 1: So I guess he wasn't the sentimental type flipped this estate. Yeah. 111 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:25,359 Speaker 1: I think it wasn't that he wanted his family's to 112 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 1: state back. He just didn't want to lose out on 113 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:29,839 Speaker 1: the potential profit from it, I guess. 114 00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:31,680 Speaker 3: Yeah. And he seemed like he may have been like 115 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:34,040 Speaker 3: add before there was add. 116 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 1: Yeah. 117 00:05:35,240 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, from the sounds of reading his thing, I was 118 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:40,159 Speaker 3: just like, man, this kid had add. He was always 119 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:42,200 Speaker 3: in trouble. He's getting kicked out of school. Yeah, but 120 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:45,520 Speaker 3: it was just because he was like busy. 121 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 1: Yeah. 122 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:48,159 Speaker 3: He wasn't like a bad kid, it seemed like, but 123 00:05:48,279 --> 00:05:49,920 Speaker 3: he was just always had something going on. 124 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:52,800 Speaker 1: He finally, I guess found his niche and he did 125 00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:58,160 Speaker 1: become quite a businessman and fabulously wealthy, but he wasn't 126 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 1: wealthy enough in his opinion, and in fact joined the 127 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:05,760 Speaker 1: Sons of Liberty, the revolutionary group in New England, because 128 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 1: he was mad that his riches were being taxed by England. 129 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:13,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, he liked the dough, he did, and he did 130 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:18,160 Speaker 3: have a pretty remarkable military career in Jefferson and Washington 131 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:20,279 Speaker 3: were big supporters of him for a while. 132 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:23,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, but he also suffered. Apparently there are a lot 133 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:26,479 Speaker 1: of petty jealousies that they don't talk about among the 134 00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:29,960 Speaker 1: founding fathers and the second and third echelons of all 135 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:34,240 Speaker 1: these guys, and apparently Benedict Donald frequently suffered. 136 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 3: Yes, he was slighted a lot, a lot. 137 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, he missed out on honors and stuff like that. 138 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:41,159 Speaker 1: And he doesn't seem like the type to let things go, 139 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:45,920 Speaker 1: nor was he the type to air his his feelings, 140 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:48,240 Speaker 1: so he just kind of sat there and stewed, right. 141 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:50,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, I saw most of the times he was slighted. 142 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:53,600 Speaker 3: He fought really hard to get either reassigned or reappointed 143 00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:56,560 Speaker 3: to the position he was going for. And so you're right, 144 00:06:56,560 --> 00:07:00,280 Speaker 3: he couldn't let it go. He needed therapy. But instead 145 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:04,840 Speaker 3: he was appointed to run West Point, not the military academy, 146 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:07,280 Speaker 3: the four right, Yeah, this is pre I guess they 147 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:08,520 Speaker 3: probably named it after that though, didn't they. 148 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 1: I think it turned into the military Academy. Okay, but 149 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 1: I think this was before it was an academy. 150 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:16,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, it was definitely. Yeah, and so he, you know, 151 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:20,320 Speaker 3: went Benedict Arnald on everyone, and little did he know 152 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:23,880 Speaker 3: he was being a Benedict Arnald. But he sold secrets 153 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 3: to the British, like plans, war secrets, armament locations for 154 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:32,360 Speaker 3: about three million bucks. I think it was ten thousand 155 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:33,240 Speaker 3: pounds at the time. 156 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:39,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, so he he The reason he did this, ostensibly 157 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 1: was a because he'd been slighted. 158 00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 3: Yeah. 159 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:44,080 Speaker 1: But also, and this is what it's been lost to history, 160 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 1: is that he he came to believe that the revolution 161 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:52,040 Speaker 1: had lost steam, that the people running the show didn't 162 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:54,120 Speaker 1: really know what they were doing and probably wouldn't form 163 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 1: a very good post revolutionary government if successful. 164 00:07:57,880 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 3: So did he genuinely think the Brits were going to 165 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 3: do a better job. 166 00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:04,119 Speaker 1: Supposedly that's what historians say, but again he didn't really. 167 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:06,400 Speaker 1: He may have been the type to just kind of 168 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:09,240 Speaker 1: say that's what he was right thinking too, and then 169 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:13,960 Speaker 1: somebody wrote down at some point, but he ultimately said this, 170 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 1: the colonies are better back in the hands of England again. 171 00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 3: Gotcha. 172 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:19,080 Speaker 1: So not only am I going to try to sell 173 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:23,360 Speaker 1: the map to West Point, I'm going to join the 174 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 1: British Army, which he did, Yeah, and led at least 175 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:31,840 Speaker 1: two raids against American revolutionary forces. So he really switched sides. 176 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah in seventeen eighty. I can't believe whoever 177 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:38,800 Speaker 3: wrote this article put that. When the plot was intercepted, 178 00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:41,439 Speaker 3: he went from he wrote a zero. 179 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:43,440 Speaker 1: I know, I know. 180 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:45,240 Speaker 3: I was all of a sudden, I was in like 181 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:46,640 Speaker 3: in the US magazine Ers or. 182 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 1: Like a Springer show. 183 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:51,319 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's weird, but that's what happened. He was convicted 184 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:56,400 Speaker 3: of treason and his name was erased from the record books, 185 00:08:56,600 --> 00:08:59,480 Speaker 3: and England promised him. They're like, hey, if you defect 186 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:02,480 Speaker 3: over here, we're going to give you land in Canada. Yeah, 187 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 3: we're not going to give you land here. We'll give 188 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:06,760 Speaker 3: you land in Canada some money, and we'll promise your 189 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:09,559 Speaker 3: family pensions and you're going to be a British provincial 190 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:13,240 Speaker 3: brigadier general, and he's like, that sounds pretty great. But 191 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:17,480 Speaker 3: as it turned out, he didn't get that many great 192 00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 3: assignments in the military. In England, he was even sort 193 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:23,959 Speaker 3: of I don't think anyone likes a trader. No, that's England. 194 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:26,600 Speaker 1: They're like, yeah, yeah, that comes up again and again, 195 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 1: like yeah, even the side that you're trying to or whatever. 196 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:34,000 Speaker 1: They yeah, they're like, you're a trader. 197 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 3: Well, I think it's because basically you're just a big liar. 198 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:38,199 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you're treacherous. 199 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:39,599 Speaker 3: Yeah, and so people are like, how can I go 200 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:41,640 Speaker 3: to trust you? Thanks for doing that, but can you 201 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:42,480 Speaker 3: go live in Canada? 202 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:44,640 Speaker 1: But it does pop up again and again. Anybody who's 203 00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:48,600 Speaker 1: ever turned trader and expected some sort of glory has 204 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:49,840 Speaker 1: been sorely disappointed. 205 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 3: Yeah. So in England he was sort of poo pooed. 206 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:54,960 Speaker 3: Then he moved to Canada they didn't like him. Yeah, 207 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:57,360 Speaker 3: and then he moved back to England and died there 208 00:09:57,480 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 3: without ever like making a whole lot of money or 209 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 3: getting any important military action. Right, So sort of a 210 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:04,080 Speaker 3: sad ending. 211 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:06,760 Speaker 1: It really is. And today if you go to West Point, 212 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:10,559 Speaker 1: there's I guess twelve plaques of some of like the 213 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:15,320 Speaker 1: head revolutionary generals, and his name is literally wiped from 214 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:18,440 Speaker 1: the record. It has the year of his birth and 215 00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:22,319 Speaker 1: I think the town of his birth. Well, his name 216 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:26,200 Speaker 1: is not on the plaque any longer, just says is 217 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:29,200 Speaker 1: this smeared or there's a sharpie through it? 218 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:32,440 Speaker 3: Right? All right, So that's been an arnold. 219 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:36,000 Speaker 1: Let's go a little further back. Okay, let's go way back. 220 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:42,280 Speaker 1: I'm talking like maybe forty four BC. 221 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:53,240 Speaker 3: Cassius and Brutus. Yeah, Marcus Junius Brutus the younger. 222 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 1: I'm glad. Do you look that up? 223 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:57,679 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm sure he had a fuller name. 224 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:00,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, Brutus. It's like it's like a whole country of 225 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 1: share or something. 226 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:05,440 Speaker 3: And here's the thing with these guys. They were definitely 227 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:09,760 Speaker 3: traders as well, but they're also singled out clearly. They 228 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 3: killed Caesar we all know in the IDEs of March, 229 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:16,840 Speaker 3: which is Caesar the Senator and dfl dictator for life, 230 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 3: which self declared. But they are like sixty dudes that 231 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:21,720 Speaker 3: took part in this. 232 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:26,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, and Caesar was self declared Caesar for a civil 233 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:32,200 Speaker 1: war one informed a triumvirate with the people that he vanquished. Yeah, 234 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:38,120 Speaker 1: so he wasn't entirely dictatorial, although as like popular opinion 235 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:41,440 Speaker 1: started to swell around him, He's like, maybe I will 236 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:44,559 Speaker 1: just be leader for life. Let's save all those voting 237 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:46,640 Speaker 1: days and I'll just be leader for the rest of 238 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:52,200 Speaker 1: the time. I'm alive. And Cassius and Brutus had both 239 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:55,560 Speaker 1: fought against Caesar in the civil war yea. And despite that, 240 00:11:56,080 --> 00:12:01,160 Speaker 1: Caesar pardoned both of them and gave them positions of 241 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:03,320 Speaker 1: power in his new government. 242 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 3: And brand new knives. 243 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:08,600 Speaker 1: And they said, and they said, still not enough. Well, 244 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:11,760 Speaker 1: Cassius especially apparently he was very envious of Caesar and 245 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:14,160 Speaker 1: his power. He was the rebel rouser, and that that 246 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:18,200 Speaker 1: was ultimately his motive, although he used the concept of 247 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 1: the Republic of Rome turning into a dictatorship to lead 248 00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:24,680 Speaker 1: the assassination against Caesar. 249 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:27,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, and even cooked up evidence and like letters of 250 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:30,920 Speaker 3: support to show Brutus, because Brutus was much friendlier with Caesar. 251 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:35,840 Speaker 3: There were buds, but he was swayed by Cassius and said, 252 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:37,959 Speaker 3: you know what, this is going to be good for 253 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:40,560 Speaker 3: our country or our kingdom or whatever they were calling 254 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:45,000 Speaker 3: at the time, and took part. But they weren't like that. 255 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:47,360 Speaker 3: The lead I mean, maybe they cooked it up, but 256 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:49,000 Speaker 3: they weren't the initial aggressors. 257 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:53,240 Speaker 1: I thought Brutus was the first one to stab Caesar. 258 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:59,040 Speaker 3: No, this dude, Tillius Simber came out and like pulled 259 00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:01,760 Speaker 3: down his tunic first of all, did he really? Yeah, 260 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:04,600 Speaker 3: I guess he said pulled it down, But I don't 261 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:06,520 Speaker 3: know what that means. If he I imagined he was 262 00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:10,160 Speaker 3: pulling it hockey either pants him or no. Tunic's like 263 00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:12,200 Speaker 3: a shirt thing, so I thought he pulled it over 264 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:13,880 Speaker 3: his head like a hockey player might in a fight. 265 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 1: It's like reverse pants. 266 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:18,000 Speaker 3: It reverse pants him, And Caesar was like, you know, 267 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:23,920 Speaker 3: what is this violence going on? And then another dude, Kaska, 268 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:27,160 Speaker 3: he came at him with a knife, and Caesar blocked 269 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:32,000 Speaker 3: him away and defended himself and was like, basically, what's 270 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:34,760 Speaker 3: going on here? And then that's when everyone, like sixty 271 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:37,960 Speaker 3: guys descended upon him. Wow, among you know, Brutus might 272 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:39,679 Speaker 3: have been the lead of that pack. 273 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:42,560 Speaker 1: Though, yeah, okay, okay, Well. 274 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:44,200 Speaker 3: He stabbed the crap out of him, So I knew. 275 00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:47,000 Speaker 1: I thought Brutus was the first one to stab him. 276 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:48,959 Speaker 1: I knew that some other guy was the first one 277 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:50,440 Speaker 1: to strike him, and it may have been the guy 278 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:53,440 Speaker 1: who reverse pants to him till he yeah, you, me 279 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:55,880 Speaker 1: and I were at Pompei who actually walked around Pompeii 280 00:13:56,400 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 1: And there's a table there and it belonged to that guy. 281 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:02,480 Speaker 1: Oh really, And I guess somebody in Pompeii like bought 282 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:04,840 Speaker 1: the table of the first guy to strike Caesar and 283 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:07,600 Speaker 1: like had it in their via and it's still there today. 284 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 3: And did you eat at it? 285 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:11,559 Speaker 1: No, we stared at it. Oh okay, we looked at 286 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:13,559 Speaker 1: it from like three meters away. 287 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 3: Oh gotcha. 288 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:17,760 Speaker 1: You have to say meters because in Italy that's obnoxious. 289 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:20,920 Speaker 3: And apparently only one of the stabs. He was stabbed 290 00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:24,240 Speaker 3: twenty three times, and like continued to be stabbed even 291 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:27,080 Speaker 3: after he was on the floor dead, but only one 292 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:30,280 Speaker 3: of them was a fatal blow. He was a like 293 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:32,760 Speaker 3: the second stab I think went through his heart, and 294 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:35,480 Speaker 3: the rest were just you know, but before they felt injury. 295 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 1: When Brutus stabbed him, yeah, Caesar very famously said a 296 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:44,240 Speaker 1: two brute yeah, which literally means and you brutus or 297 00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:46,480 Speaker 1: what the hell brutus? 298 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, you too, And supposedly he kind of gave up 299 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 3: at that point, like it killed a spirit when he 300 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:53,960 Speaker 3: saw Brutus was involved. Yeah, but I don't. Yeah. 301 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:58,920 Speaker 1: Supposedly he didn't want to live in a brutistless world, 302 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 1: in a world where even Brutus could assassinate him, so 303 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:07,560 Speaker 1: he resigned himself to dying and hence became a hero. 304 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:09,520 Speaker 3: It's very sad. It was on my birthday? 305 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:15,960 Speaker 1: Your birth is it the fifteenth? Fifteenth too? But not 306 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:16,520 Speaker 1: of March? 307 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:20,680 Speaker 3: That's right? Uh so? Oh? Also too, apparently that was 308 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:25,520 Speaker 3: the first autopsy report. Oh really, first post mortem death 309 00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:28,560 Speaker 3: report was made on Caesar Greeks man. 310 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:31,640 Speaker 1: If that's true, I've heard the Romans. Whoops. Whatever, I'm 311 00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 1: really glad I caught that one. 312 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:40,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, to lead to their email. Anything else I want 313 00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:42,400 Speaker 3: on these two traders? 314 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:51,040 Speaker 1: No? Oh yes, Dante had a special hatred for Brutus 315 00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:55,240 Speaker 1: and Cassius, and in his Inferno he says that they 316 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 1: are being perpetually eaten by two of Lucifer's three mouths. 317 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:00,560 Speaker 3: Wow. 318 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 1: And the third mouth is reserved for the next guy. 319 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:06,680 Speaker 1: We'll talk about, a little guy named Judas as Carrie. 320 00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:08,760 Speaker 3: Oh really, yeah, Satan's third mouth. 321 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:13,440 Speaker 1: So Lucifer's three mouths are eating Cassius, Brutus and Judas. 322 00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:18,360 Speaker 3: Wow. All right. Judas is one of these that recent 323 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:22,480 Speaker 3: evidence has emerged where he may not have been such 324 00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:25,280 Speaker 3: a trader, but we'll get into that. But then that 325 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:30,920 Speaker 3: was refuted as well. Everyone obviously knows the Judas kiss 326 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:37,120 Speaker 3: very famously. Judas betrayed Jesus. He was one of the disciples. 327 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:39,520 Speaker 3: He betrayed Jesus with a kiss. Yeah, and it was 328 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:42,440 Speaker 3: actually a signal to the guards to come and grab him. 329 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:43,840 Speaker 3: I guess he was identifying him. 330 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:49,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, apparently the Romans didn't know who this Jesus was, Yeah, 331 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:52,160 Speaker 1: at least by sight. And Judas went and said, hey, 332 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:53,880 Speaker 1: you guys want this Jesus, what do you give me? 333 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:56,760 Speaker 1: And the signal was like, well, you kissed the guy 334 00:16:57,640 --> 00:16:59,320 Speaker 1: that's Jesus, and we'll come get him. 335 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:00,680 Speaker 3: And we'll give you thirty pieces of silver. 336 00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 1: Thirty pieces of silver. I mean, the west Egg inflation 337 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:08,320 Speaker 1: calculator doesn't go back to you know that date, but 338 00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:12,119 Speaker 1: I can imagine it's still probably wasn't that much thirty 339 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:12,920 Speaker 1: pieces of silver. 340 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:14,200 Speaker 3: I have no idea. 341 00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:17,399 Speaker 1: Well, apparently it was used later on to buy a 342 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:21,840 Speaker 1: field to turn into a potter's field to bury unclaimed 343 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:24,680 Speaker 1: dead Oh really, but I mean it's field, how much. 344 00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:26,240 Speaker 1: It couldn't have been that. 345 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:29,000 Speaker 3: Much, Like how much was land going for back then 346 00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:29,680 Speaker 3: in the Middle East? 347 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:30,600 Speaker 1: They had tons of land. 348 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 3: Okay, So Judas betrays Jesus. He was we didn't know 349 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:41,400 Speaker 3: much about his life at the time, but recently there 350 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:44,960 Speaker 3: has been I think in two thousand one of the Gospel, 351 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:49,760 Speaker 3: a new gospel was revealed, the Gospel of Judas. 352 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, colon my story. 353 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:54,920 Speaker 3: My side of things. 354 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:55,200 Speaker 1: Yeah. 355 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:59,359 Speaker 3: And it was a of course, a papyrus document dating 356 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:02,560 Speaker 3: to the second century a d. And it was written 357 00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:05,320 Speaker 3: about in a book called the Lost Gospel, and it 358 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:10,399 Speaker 3: portrays this Judas as more of a facilitator of what 359 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:14,600 Speaker 3: Jesus wanted. Basically, Jesus is like, hey, turn me in 360 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:18,760 Speaker 3: because this is my destiny. Yeah, Like sacrifice yourself. I 361 00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:22,159 Speaker 3: sacrifice myself and we all go on to live in 362 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:24,040 Speaker 3: heaven and you know, fulfill our destinies. 363 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:26,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, which a lot of people are like, Okay, I 364 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:28,440 Speaker 1: kind of like this different view of Judas, you know, 365 00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:31,760 Speaker 1: and it makes Jesus even more prescient than he appears 366 00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:34,679 Speaker 1: in the Bible, sure, because you know, he's betrayed by 367 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 1: someone he thought was his friend, and this he is 368 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:44,480 Speaker 1: commanding Judas he's asking him to do this. So it's 369 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 1: just an all around like great view of the story 370 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:52,320 Speaker 1: when when, But unfortunately, apparently there's some problems that a 371 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:57,480 Speaker 1: lot of scholars, Gnostic scholars have with the translation, and 372 00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:00,440 Speaker 1: that if you just tweak a few things to the 373 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:04,080 Speaker 1: way that the Gnostic scholars think it should be translated, yeah, 374 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:06,359 Speaker 1: that all just goes right out the window. And actually 375 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:10,840 Speaker 1: Judas is not only a horrible treacherous traitor, he's actually 376 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 1: a demon from the thirteenth level of being. 377 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:19,119 Speaker 3: Yeah, so quite two different stories. Yeah, all by changing 378 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:22,720 Speaker 3: a few words in this Coptic text, which isn't the 379 00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:25,960 Speaker 3: easiest stuff to translate. Like it's tough, you know, it's 380 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 3: not like and even the person that poo pooed the 381 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:32,160 Speaker 3: original translation was like, this is a very hard job. 382 00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:32,359 Speaker 1: You know. 383 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 3: I'm not saying they necessarily did it on purpose, but 384 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:38,920 Speaker 3: that's not what I think it says, right, And so, 385 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:42,800 Speaker 3: and that was April Deconic, a professor of Biblical studies 386 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:46,080 Speaker 3: at Rice University. And I don't know did other people 387 00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:47,760 Speaker 3: come out and support that. I can really find much. 388 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:50,040 Speaker 1: I don't know. 389 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:54,000 Speaker 3: And apparently actually in the Bible it's hinted at that 390 00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:56,280 Speaker 3: Jesus could have known about it, but. 391 00:19:56,880 --> 00:19:59,680 Speaker 1: Well doesn't he say like one of you will betray me? 392 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:01,399 Speaker 3: At least? Yeah, he definitely said that. 393 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:04,800 Speaker 1: The Last Temptation of Christ. Yeah, who Harvey kai Tell 394 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:06,679 Speaker 1: does a pretty good Jesus or Judas. 395 00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:08,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, you know will in Dafoe. 396 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:12,520 Speaker 1: Yeah that was that was a good movie. But yeah, 397 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:15,680 Speaker 1: that was how I when I like anything I'd ever heard, 398 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:18,760 Speaker 1: I always thought like Jesus knew it was just never 399 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:22,919 Speaker 1: as explicit as this Gospel of Judas put it. 400 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:25,399 Speaker 3: Right and then Gospel of Judas. I even claim that 401 00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:28,639 Speaker 3: Jesus even asked Judas like, hey, will you do this 402 00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:31,919 Speaker 3: for me? Do me as solid? So kiss me, put 403 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:32,719 Speaker 3: one right here, right. 404 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:37,480 Speaker 1: So Judas realizes what he's done, feels horribly guilty, tries 405 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:41,160 Speaker 1: to give the silver back. The high priests that he's 406 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:46,480 Speaker 1: sold Jesus out to won't take the money, and so 407 00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:48,399 Speaker 1: he throws it on the temple floor. They end up 408 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:50,560 Speaker 1: figuring out that it can be used for a potter's feel, 409 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:52,359 Speaker 1: and they use that thirty pieces of over for that, 410 00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:54,919 Speaker 1: and then Judas goes off and hangs himself. 411 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:57,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, and I don't think we said Jesus was crucified. 412 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:00,800 Speaker 3: I thought that went without saying. Yeah, but in case 413 00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:02,240 Speaker 3: there's like one person out there was like, what. 414 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:04,440 Speaker 1: Happened to Jesus? All right, whatever, it became a Jesus, 415 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:09,560 Speaker 1: That's what happened. And then Judas supposedly fell headlong and 416 00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:13,120 Speaker 1: his body opened up. And there, if you go back 417 00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 1: and read some scholarly translations, they think that his body 418 00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:22,960 Speaker 1: opened up means that he was left his body was 419 00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:25,960 Speaker 1: left hanging for a while out in the heat, and 420 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:29,800 Speaker 1: when it finally fell, like a branch broke or whatever, 421 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:32,280 Speaker 1: and it fell, it kind of ruptured. 422 00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:35,359 Speaker 3: Across where'd you find that out I don't remember. 423 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:36,240 Speaker 1: Somewhere online? 424 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:36,760 Speaker 3: Wow? 425 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:39,920 Speaker 1: Yeah it was. Yeah. They were talking about how he 426 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:43,920 Speaker 1: went headlong. He became headlong, and they were saying, like, 427 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:46,320 Speaker 1: if you just switch out like a couple of letters, 428 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:50,119 Speaker 1: headlong becomes swollen, and then that would explain why his 429 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:51,399 Speaker 1: body opened up. 430 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:51,880 Speaker 3: Wow. 431 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:52,360 Speaker 1: Yeah. 432 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:55,040 Speaker 3: And now Judas and Judas kiss are both part of 433 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:58,880 Speaker 3: the lexicon. And you know, in terms of betrayals, yeah, 434 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:02,680 Speaker 3: you know, treacherous treacher So I know, thanks Sam. 435 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:27,359 Speaker 1: How about Chuck, I know you've seen this movie. 436 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:28,480 Speaker 3: I love this movie. 437 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:32,040 Speaker 1: Uh, the assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Coward 438 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:32,720 Speaker 1: Robert Ford. 439 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:34,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, we've talked about it. This is a good movie, 440 00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:38,439 Speaker 3: very good movie, written and directed by h Andrew Dominic 441 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:43,160 Speaker 3: and uh has Paul Schneider and my buddy, Paul Schneider. 442 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:51,880 Speaker 3: Schneid's right, he listens, Oh, hey, was he he's in it? Yeah, 443 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:55,400 Speaker 3: he's he's one of the gang. And he's a great actor. 444 00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 3: He's We've since become like email pals. That's so. 445 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:02,479 Speaker 1: Uh. That was an excellent movie. I'm sure Schneider did 446 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:03,560 Speaker 1: fantastic in it. 447 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:06,040 Speaker 3: He did great Schneid's Schneid's. 448 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:09,680 Speaker 1: And it seems to me I don't know a lot 449 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:14,120 Speaker 1: about the whole saga of Jesse James, especially his demise, 450 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:16,880 Speaker 1: but it seemed to be pretty true to everything I've 451 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:17,639 Speaker 1: ever heard about it. 452 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:19,760 Speaker 3: Yeah. I think the movie was pretty accurate. Yeah, and 453 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:22,840 Speaker 3: it was great, like gorgeous to look at, beautifully filmed. Yeah, 454 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:26,960 Speaker 3: and not just because Brad Pitt was in it, but 455 00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:29,600 Speaker 3: Casey Fleck as Robert Ford was amazing. 456 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:32,360 Speaker 1: He really so. Anyway, if you haven't seen that movie, 457 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:34,040 Speaker 1: go out and see it. In the meantime, we'll spoil 458 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:34,440 Speaker 1: it for you. 459 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:36,040 Speaker 3: I think he was nominated for an Academy. 460 00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:38,159 Speaker 1: Well, I can't imagine how he wasn't. Yeah, he was 461 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:38,920 Speaker 1: so creepy. 462 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:42,359 Speaker 3: So what's the deal with Jesse James. 463 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:46,359 Speaker 1: Well, Jesse James was a member of the James Ganga, 464 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:48,320 Speaker 1: the leader, a full partner. Well, I think he and 465 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:51,240 Speaker 1: his brother Frank were kind of co leaders really, that's 466 00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:56,360 Speaker 1: the impression I have, Like Frank stallone. Yeah, and they 467 00:23:56,760 --> 00:24:00,240 Speaker 1: were very successful at robbing trains, robbing people, robbing banks, 468 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:05,600 Speaker 1: robbing everything, and they became outlaw folk heroes everybody loved 469 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 1: to hate, but he also still loved. 470 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:08,600 Speaker 3: Well, they didn't kill people. 471 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:12,080 Speaker 1: No, not until the second to last robbery by Jesse James. 472 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:15,760 Speaker 1: They botched it and a couple of people died. Most 473 00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:18,440 Speaker 1: of the James gang was caught, and Jesse and Frank 474 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:23,399 Speaker 1: went off and assembled a new gang that included Robert Ford. 475 00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:26,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, he was pretty new. He had long tried to 476 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:31,960 Speaker 3: get in the James Gang and was sort of shunned 477 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:35,200 Speaker 3: as a weirdo, a little weird and like not the 478 00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:39,359 Speaker 3: most skilled robber and gunman, and it wasn't taken very seriously, 479 00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:40,320 Speaker 3: which always bothered him. 480 00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 1: Right, So Jesse James pulls off one last train robbery 481 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:47,480 Speaker 1: in eighteen seventy and decides to retire. Frank James retires 482 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:50,840 Speaker 1: and Robert Ford kind of tangs along with Jesse James 483 00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:55,400 Speaker 1: the rest of his life, and the Governor of Missouri 484 00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:59,879 Speaker 1: put a bounty on Jesse James head of I believe 485 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:05,200 Speaker 1: ten thousand dollars, which is pretty substantial for eighteen seventy. Sure, 486 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:10,199 Speaker 1: And in eighteen eighty two Robert Ford took the Governor 487 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:12,800 Speaker 1: of Missouri up on this. I apparently met with him, Yeah, 488 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:15,520 Speaker 1: and not only said I'm gonna do this. I want 489 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:18,080 Speaker 1: this reward. I'm gonna split it with my brother here. Yeah, 490 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:21,880 Speaker 1: but I also want to be I want immunity from 491 00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:22,399 Speaker 1: my crimes. 492 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:24,920 Speaker 3: Yeah. Well he was supposedly just supposed to capture him. 493 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 1: Oh okay, and. 494 00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:29,080 Speaker 3: Did the shooting on his own volition. 495 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,520 Speaker 1: And there's a wood cutting in this article of Jesse 496 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:37,080 Speaker 1: James dropping a feather duster just like he does in 497 00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:38,720 Speaker 1: the movie. 498 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:41,080 Speaker 3: Oh yeah. He stands on a chair in his own 499 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:46,000 Speaker 3: home to dust a picture and Robert Ford shoots him 500 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:47,840 Speaker 3: in the back of the head. Yeah, and kills him 501 00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:52,400 Speaker 3: just right there, very like low key and anticlimactic. 502 00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:54,120 Speaker 1: With his wife home and everything. Yeah, And then they leave, 503 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:58,119 Speaker 1: and so Robert Ford kind of like I think Benedict Darnold, 504 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:02,040 Speaker 1: expected to be concerd something of a hero. Yeah, and 505 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:08,240 Speaker 1: he was considered a coward a zero. Yeah, yeah, he was. 506 00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:10,920 Speaker 3: Actually, he and his brother were both indicted, found guilty, 507 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:14,280 Speaker 3: sentenced to hang, and pardoned in a single day. 508 00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:16,600 Speaker 1: Oh that's a heck of a day. 509 00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:19,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, pretty like emotional rollercoaster going on there. 510 00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:23,040 Speaker 1: And they became an ostracized socially. Robert Ford just became 511 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:27,080 Speaker 1: the butt of many jokes. And then finally one day 512 00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:29,840 Speaker 1: he was confronted by a man who sought him out 513 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:32,520 Speaker 1: because he wanted to kill Robert Ford for to gain 514 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:33,280 Speaker 1: his own acclaim. 515 00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:36,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, Edward O'Kelly brought a shotgun into it. He was 516 00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:40,760 Speaker 3: a bar owner I think at the time Robert Ford was. 517 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:43,959 Speaker 3: And after by the way, they toured in a touring production. 518 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:46,240 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, like recreating the murders. 519 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:47,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, Sam Rockwell. 520 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:50,359 Speaker 3: Yeah. And so Edward O'Kelly goes in the bar with 521 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:53,320 Speaker 3: a shotgun, says hello, Bob, He turns around, shoots him 522 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:57,760 Speaker 3: in the throat, and he gets a sentence commuted after 523 00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:00,920 Speaker 3: a petition and his pardoned killing Robert Ford. 524 00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:06,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, back then, the prairie job mob rule definitely had 525 00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:09,480 Speaker 1: like a ground hold. 526 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:10,120 Speaker 3: Yeah. 527 00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:12,040 Speaker 1: I don't know what that is, but I think I 528 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:13,119 Speaker 1: got my point across. 529 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:14,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, they were like, he was a coward and you 530 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:16,800 Speaker 3: shot him, so that makes you a good guy. 531 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:17,440 Speaker 1: Exactly. 532 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,680 Speaker 3: So that's Robert Fort. You got anything else? Nope? Should 533 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 3: we move on to Mada Hati? 534 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:28,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, I knew next to nothing about Mada Hai. 535 00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:28,959 Speaker 3: Yeah. Same here. 536 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:31,120 Speaker 1: She turned out to be a pretty fascinating woman. 537 00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:31,840 Speaker 3: Yeah. 538 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:35,680 Speaker 1: Possibly not a trader at all. Yeah, actually, probably not 539 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:38,439 Speaker 1: a trader at all. Yeah, let's let's talk about her. 540 00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:43,959 Speaker 3: Well, she was a very sexual being. She was very 541 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:46,560 Speaker 3: close to her father apparently, who doted on her, and 542 00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:51,240 Speaker 3: she has been described as sex as being her driving force. 543 00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:53,920 Speaker 3: And she was said to have an insatiable longing for 544 00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:58,399 Speaker 3: male attention her entire life and for the time period 545 00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:02,240 Speaker 3: early nineteen hundreds, she really really slept around. 546 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, and she didn't just like you the sex with 547 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:06,760 Speaker 1: the men. She liked them to buy her stuff. 548 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:09,320 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, well she used it as a means for sure. Yeah. 549 00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:14,360 Speaker 1: She blew through a lot of guy's money, right, Yeah, 550 00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:18,119 Speaker 1: and just loved to live lavishly, racked up tons of 551 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:24,720 Speaker 1: debt and became something of a toast among Parisian society, 552 00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:25,720 Speaker 1: European society. 553 00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:27,600 Speaker 3: Actually, yeah, she was Dutch, we should point out. 554 00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:31,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, her real name was Margareta Zelli. 555 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:34,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, but she looked like Indian and she tried to 556 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:38,200 Speaker 3: remake herself as this Indian exotic Indian dancer. 557 00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:41,760 Speaker 1: I read Indonesian. Oh, Indonesian, Yeah, because Mata Hari is 558 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:46,840 Speaker 1: Malaysian for eye of the dawn, which means sunrise. Gotcha, 559 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:50,000 Speaker 1: So her name was Sunrise, the stripping dancer. 560 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:54,640 Speaker 3: Well, and she she didn't just dance like this was 561 00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:57,160 Speaker 3: at a time when the mulan ruge was like they 562 00:28:57,200 --> 00:28:59,800 Speaker 3: were like pulling their skirts up a little bit and 563 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,760 Speaker 3: and some ankle and some nickers, and she was like 564 00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:06,080 Speaker 3: taking it to you another. 565 00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 1: Level, apparently on stage in people's living. 566 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:14,240 Speaker 3: Rooms, private dances, like traveling dancing, like really erotic and 567 00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:15,560 Speaker 3: exotic stuff for the time. 568 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:18,800 Speaker 1: So from what I understand, she was also a sometime 569 00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:23,440 Speaker 1: prostitute when things were really bad and sure and then 570 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:27,040 Speaker 1: she but ultimately she just kind of went through a 571 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:31,560 Speaker 1: succession of lovers around Europe, and at one point she 572 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:38,160 Speaker 1: found herself in I guess in Amsterdam and was approached 573 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:41,120 Speaker 1: by a German officer and said, hey, we want you 574 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:44,120 Speaker 1: to spy for us. Here's twenty thousand francs and some 575 00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:48,520 Speaker 1: invisible ink, and you're now a German spy, right, And 576 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:52,600 Speaker 1: she's like, whatever, mine air, right, Thanks for the money, sucker, 577 00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:56,280 Speaker 1: and threw away the invisible ink supposedly, and never spied 578 00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,320 Speaker 1: for Germany. But she still had a code name H 579 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:03,120 Speaker 1: twenty one, and as far as Germany was concerned, she 580 00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:06,160 Speaker 1: was a spy for them, even though she didn't take 581 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:09,920 Speaker 1: it seriously. Apparently never carried out any spying activities. So 582 00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:12,400 Speaker 1: she had a reputation as a German. 583 00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:17,120 Speaker 3: Spy, yeah, without actually spying yet. And she was, as 584 00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:20,520 Speaker 3: this one writer puts it, she was traveling alone. She 585 00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:24,440 Speaker 3: was wealthy, she was an excellent linguist, and very foreign 586 00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:27,440 Speaker 3: and very educated and admitted to having lovers and like 587 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:30,080 Speaker 3: all of this stuff for the time just meant we 588 00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:32,680 Speaker 3: don't trust you, even if we don't have evidence. This 589 00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:36,800 Speaker 3: makes you untrustworthy, right, So at some point the French 590 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:39,680 Speaker 3: decided that they were going to recruit her to become 591 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:42,360 Speaker 3: a French spy. This is Durman World War One, Yeah, 592 00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:45,560 Speaker 3: even though they already suspected she was a German spy. 593 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:50,360 Speaker 3: She was sent around to try to get to I 594 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:54,240 Speaker 3: don't remember what country they were trying to get her into, Vittel, 595 00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:57,160 Speaker 3: oh try together. 596 00:30:57,360 --> 00:30:59,600 Speaker 1: She went to Russia. Yeah, she ended up going there 597 00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:02,040 Speaker 1: for a little while in exchange for becoming a French spy, 598 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:05,640 Speaker 1: agreeing to spy for the French exactly. She ended up 599 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:09,920 Speaker 1: in Spain and came across this German officer and apparently 600 00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:14,280 Speaker 1: he suspected her of being a spy. So when she 601 00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:16,800 Speaker 1: started asking him questions, he gave her old information. 602 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:19,120 Speaker 3: Yeah. Well they went to bed together as well. Sure 603 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:21,520 Speaker 3: we should mention this thing is just rife with sex. 604 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:25,560 Speaker 1: Right, and he gave her some old information. This the 605 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:29,000 Speaker 1: frenchman who the French intelligence officer who recruited her as 606 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:31,280 Speaker 1: a spy but still suspected her as a German spy. Yeah, 607 00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:33,560 Speaker 1: finally said you know what, I think that what you 608 00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:35,960 Speaker 1: were really doing was giving French secrets to the German. 609 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:39,720 Speaker 1: You're a double agent and we're going to arrest you. 610 00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:42,560 Speaker 1: And she was arrested in France again no evidence, no 611 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:46,680 Speaker 1: evidence whatsoever, and tried for treason and convicted. 612 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:51,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, and basically Thunder knows that the whole experience and 613 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:55,160 Speaker 3: was like, I'm going to hold my head high, I'm 614 00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:56,960 Speaker 3: going to blow you a kiss right before you shoot me. 615 00:31:57,040 --> 00:31:57,720 Speaker 3: And the firing squad. 616 00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:00,280 Speaker 1: Well, supposedly it wasn't the firing squad. It was two 617 00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:02,760 Speaker 1: nuns that she became friends with and her lawyer who 618 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:06,160 Speaker 1: also she had slept with. That's who she blew kisses to, 619 00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:09,920 Speaker 1: but she refused to blind Ok, that's what it's in 620 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:13,360 Speaker 1: this article I saw elsewhere is like to the nuns. 621 00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:15,600 Speaker 3: She also slept with her headmaster when she was sixteen. 622 00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:18,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, it got kicked out of school for it. Yeah, 623 00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:21,440 Speaker 1: So she refuses a blindfold. In the end, she's all 624 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:25,080 Speaker 1: dressed up and everything for her execution. She's standing ankle 625 00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:28,840 Speaker 1: deep in mud on a cold October day in nineteen seventeen. Yeah, 626 00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:31,320 Speaker 1: she refuses to be tied to the pole behind her. 627 00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:35,400 Speaker 1: She refuses a blindfold and is executed by firing squad. 628 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:38,720 Speaker 1: So the weird thing is is about thirty years later, 629 00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:43,000 Speaker 1: one of the prosecutors in France admitted, quote they didn't 630 00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:48,120 Speaker 1: have sorry, here's the quote. There was quote not enough 631 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:52,640 Speaker 1: evidence to flog a cat. Yeah, that she very very 632 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:57,280 Speaker 1: likely did not ever spy for Germany. Yeah, made that 633 00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:02,360 Speaker 1: one half hearted attempt in France just buy for France 634 00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:06,720 Speaker 1: to make some money, and was executed and still didn't protest. 635 00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:09,160 Speaker 3: I wonder if there's been a good movie on her, 636 00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:11,760 Speaker 3: surely there, I don't know if there's been a recent one. 637 00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:14,720 Speaker 3: She was tall too, she was like almost six feet tall. 638 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:15,800 Speaker 1: Yes, she looks very long. 639 00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:19,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, look at her. It's hard to like sometimes it's 640 00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:22,800 Speaker 3: tough to look at pictures from back then and see 641 00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:25,240 Speaker 3: the attraction, you know. Yeah, it's just a different time period. 642 00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:28,800 Speaker 1: I think it was the fact that she took off 643 00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:29,680 Speaker 1: her clothes. 644 00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:34,360 Speaker 3: And was real sexy and tall, right, yeah, slept with everybody. 645 00:33:48,880 --> 00:34:00,479 Speaker 1: Selfish should know. So Matahari probably was not a trader, 646 00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:05,280 Speaker 1: and they really had a lot of trouble trying to 647 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:09,800 Speaker 1: prove that another famous trader was actually a trader and 648 00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:11,719 Speaker 1: that woman was i' have a toguri. 649 00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:20,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, she was. In fact, I'm just going 650 00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:22,279 Speaker 3: to go ahead and say it, she was not a 651 00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:27,560 Speaker 3: spy and she was not a treson As trader because 652 00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:31,040 Speaker 3: it was proven so, and she was pardoned by Gerald Ford. 653 00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:33,520 Speaker 1: Right, so she was born. So I'm just going to 654 00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:36,000 Speaker 1: take her off the list. Okay, we'll finish the story though. Yeah, 655 00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:38,560 Speaker 1: it's a worthwhile story. Yeah, I have a to Guri. 656 00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:43,279 Speaker 1: She was born in America in Los Angeles and had 657 00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:46,960 Speaker 1: a degree in zoology from UCLA, And in nineteen forty one, 658 00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:49,840 Speaker 1: she traveled to Tokyo to take care of an ailing 659 00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:52,839 Speaker 1: aunt her family center over there. Yeah, despite the fact 660 00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:55,759 Speaker 1: that she didn't really speak Japanese, she hadn't been raised 661 00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:58,960 Speaker 1: in Japanese culture. Apparently, it was a lot of culture shock, 662 00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:00,680 Speaker 1: but she still went over to take care of her 663 00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:04,800 Speaker 1: aunt nonetheless, And while she was there, she got two jobs. 664 00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:08,000 Speaker 1: One she was typing for one new service, and she 665 00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:12,040 Speaker 1: got a second job as a typist for the one 666 00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:13,200 Speaker 1: of the radio stations. 667 00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:17,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, and they're like, Hey, you're American, Japanese American, and 668 00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:21,400 Speaker 3: you have a great voice, and you're perfect for this 669 00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:25,040 Speaker 3: new thing that we're going to do. Its American rock 670 00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:27,120 Speaker 3: and roll music, and we're going to play it for 671 00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:30,040 Speaker 3: the morale of the troops and. 672 00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:32,600 Speaker 1: Well to deteriorate the morale. 673 00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:34,799 Speaker 3: Well, but she they told her a different story at 674 00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:35,200 Speaker 3: first though. 675 00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:36,480 Speaker 1: Oh okay, they told her it was. 676 00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:38,600 Speaker 3: To boost the morale. Really, yeah, Like, I don't think 677 00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:39,640 Speaker 3: she knew what she was getting into. 678 00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:43,080 Speaker 1: That's crazy. Why would the Japanese boost the morale of 679 00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:44,760 Speaker 1: the American troops in the Pacific. 680 00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:48,879 Speaker 3: Well, it was later said that it did, in fact 681 00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:51,160 Speaker 3: boost the morale. They said Americans love the music and 682 00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:54,000 Speaker 3: thought the Tokyo Ro's banter was funny and it lifted 683 00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:54,600 Speaker 3: their spirits. 684 00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:55,200 Speaker 1: That's funny. 685 00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:57,759 Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, So if they were really trying to do that, 686 00:35:57,840 --> 00:35:58,880 Speaker 3: it did a pretty poor job of it. 687 00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:04,120 Speaker 1: Okay. Nonetheless, she was reporting on things like ships being sunk. 688 00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:05,240 Speaker 1: Is that correct? 689 00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:07,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, she called it. Well that's what she was. Eventually 690 00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:09,480 Speaker 3: the one thing that they penned on her. 691 00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:11,680 Speaker 1: Okay, Well, then that didn't actually happen. 692 00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:14,000 Speaker 3: Oh really yeah, okay. 693 00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:16,120 Speaker 1: So well let's get back to the story. World War 694 00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:21,239 Speaker 1: two goes along, yeah, right, it ends, and she tries 695 00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:23,840 Speaker 1: to get back to America, and as she's doing that, 696 00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:28,719 Speaker 1: apparently the Japanese government identified her as Tokyo Rose. 697 00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:30,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, she was orphan. Anne was her radio name, and 698 00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:33,560 Speaker 3: Tokyo Rose was just sort of the name of the 699 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:36,520 Speaker 3: operation as a whole and not a single person, even 700 00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:38,160 Speaker 3: though they tied her to that name. 701 00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:42,080 Speaker 1: Which led to some great confusion, apparently because they were 702 00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:44,440 Speaker 1: trying to get her as Tokyo Rose, even though she 703 00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:47,120 Speaker 1: called herself Orphan Anne, and there were like twelve women 704 00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:50,200 Speaker 1: including her that were all Tokyo Rose collectively. 705 00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:50,560 Speaker 3: Yeah. 706 00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:54,480 Speaker 1: Okay, So the Japanese government says that's Tokyo Rose, and 707 00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:58,880 Speaker 1: she said I'm orphan An. The American Intelligence Services of 708 00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:02,120 Speaker 1: the Army investated her and could find no evidence that 709 00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:05,000 Speaker 1: she committed any form of treason, and they were going 710 00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:08,319 Speaker 1: to let her in the country, back in their place 711 00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:12,200 Speaker 1: of birth because she traveled without a passport. Yeah, and 712 00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:14,640 Speaker 1: now she's trying to get back in she needed a passport. 713 00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:17,680 Speaker 1: Apparently a lot of veterans groups were like, you can't 714 00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:20,160 Speaker 1: let Tokyo Rose into the US. 715 00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:22,080 Speaker 3: Yeah. It was this one guy kind of started the 716 00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:23,640 Speaker 3: charge and was successful. 717 00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:27,239 Speaker 1: The reporter had at Bundridge. Yeah, yeah, Well apparently he 718 00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:31,280 Speaker 1: got a couple of Japanese guys just to commit perjury 719 00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:36,120 Speaker 1: and present false evidence against Tokyo Rose. 720 00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:39,960 Speaker 3: Yeah. The two most damaging witnesses actually like just completely lied, right. 721 00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:42,520 Speaker 3: The FBI put him up to it, coached them, yeah, 722 00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:44,920 Speaker 3: and said you're going to get tried for treason if 723 00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:45,360 Speaker 3: you don't do this. 724 00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:49,080 Speaker 1: So she ended up being tried and convicted for treason. 725 00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:52,200 Speaker 1: And sentenced to ten years, and she got out in 726 00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:55,520 Speaker 1: nineteen fifty six, and they tried to deport her, and 727 00:37:56,080 --> 00:38:01,520 Speaker 1: she successfully battled deportation and moved to Chicago. Yeah, died 728 00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:02,399 Speaker 1: in two thousand and six. 729 00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:04,759 Speaker 3: She worked at a retail store until two thousand. 730 00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:05,680 Speaker 1: And six, her father's store. 731 00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:08,560 Speaker 3: Two thousand and six, she was working in a retail store. Yeah, 732 00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:12,000 Speaker 3: at ninety years old, and nobody even people didn't like 733 00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:14,000 Speaker 3: come in there to see Tokyo Rose, like she was 734 00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:17,960 Speaker 3: just a worker. Yeah, isn't that weird? It is like 735 00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:21,080 Speaker 3: such a prominent figure in history, It just a ringing 736 00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:21,560 Speaker 3: people up. 737 00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:25,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, like you said, uh Ford Pardner. 738 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:28,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, Gerald Ford. Then he fell down. 739 00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:32,760 Speaker 1: So let's talk about the quizzling just briefly. 740 00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:36,000 Speaker 3: Yeah. The quizzling is we mentioned earlier as another name. 741 00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:40,120 Speaker 3: If you live in perhaps Norway or maybe other parts 742 00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:42,920 Speaker 3: of Europe, you might be called a quizzling if you're 743 00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:46,200 Speaker 3: a trader because of Vidcan Quizzling. 744 00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:47,320 Speaker 1: Yeah he was. 745 00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:52,880 Speaker 3: He basically tried to seize power after buddying up with 746 00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:56,560 Speaker 3: Hitler in nineteen forty and said, you know what, I'm 747 00:38:56,560 --> 00:39:01,439 Speaker 3: gonna use this as an opportunity to make Norway my own. 748 00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:04,319 Speaker 1: Yeah, and he did so for a very very short time. Yeah, 749 00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:06,920 Speaker 1: he invited the Nazis to come invade Norway. They did. 750 00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:10,440 Speaker 1: He made a power grab and said I'm now the 751 00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:14,080 Speaker 1: ruler of Norway, and the Nazis let that slide for 752 00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:14,719 Speaker 1: about a week. 753 00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:16,000 Speaker 3: They're like, sure, sure, ruler. 754 00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:19,200 Speaker 1: Then they installed their own guy as the head of 755 00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:25,840 Speaker 1: Norway and demoted Quizzling to president Minister President. Yeah, and 756 00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:32,280 Speaker 1: apparently he went to work sentencing Norwegian Jews to concentration camps. 757 00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:34,839 Speaker 3: Yeah. He really bad guy. 758 00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:38,280 Speaker 1: Yeah. He was very much anti union. He was a fascist, 759 00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:40,520 Speaker 1: and he was trying to make Norway fastist and he 760 00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:43,280 Speaker 1: did so. He became the first person to ever announce 761 00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:47,359 Speaker 1: a coup de ta on television. That's how he made 762 00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:50,719 Speaker 1: his power grab. Oh really Yeah, I think it was television, 763 00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:53,880 Speaker 1: although it seems early so maybe it was radio, but 764 00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:55,680 Speaker 1: I guess he became the first one to announce it 765 00:39:55,719 --> 00:39:56,680 Speaker 1: over a broadcast. 766 00:39:57,000 --> 00:39:57,160 Speaker 3: Right. 767 00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:01,000 Speaker 1: So, after the Nazis defeated, he was like. 768 00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:03,919 Speaker 3: Oh no, yeah, I have a feeling this is gonna 769 00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:04,520 Speaker 3: end up bad for me. 770 00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:08,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, And he was convicted of treason, sentenced to death, 771 00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:10,480 Speaker 1: and executed by firing squad. 772 00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:13,520 Speaker 3: And you are a quizzler. I'm sorry, quizzling. 773 00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:15,640 Speaker 1: If you collude. 774 00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:18,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, if you're a Norway and you're trader, you're a quizzling. Yeah. 775 00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:23,400 Speaker 1: It's like the Benedict Arnold of Norway. So chuck, you 776 00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:24,120 Speaker 1: got anything else? 777 00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:27,120 Speaker 3: No, And as per usual, this is a top ten 778 00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:30,480 Speaker 3: that we do about six of and encourage people to 779 00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:34,040 Speaker 3: go read the rest, including Robert Hanson, who we've talked about. 780 00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:38,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, Ezra Pound as we talked about in the Insanity Defense. 781 00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:42,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, and the Cambridge five. Yeah, not the Seattle seven 782 00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:44,200 Speaker 3: or the Jackson five or the Jackson five. 783 00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:44,680 Speaker 1: Yeah. 784 00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:46,279 Speaker 3: And did we skip another one? Was at it? 785 00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:51,680 Speaker 1: I don't remember. Oh the intro, we didn't mention the 786 00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:56,279 Speaker 1: Cleveland Cavaliers iyre Lebron against Lebron, which I just think 787 00:40:56,360 --> 00:40:58,880 Speaker 1: that's weird. Well, I think then went berserk. 788 00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:01,799 Speaker 3: That's sort of past. And there's rumors of him going 789 00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:04,480 Speaker 3: back to Cleveland anyway next no way, really maybe his 790 00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:07,200 Speaker 3: contract's up and they think that he might love nothing 791 00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:09,120 Speaker 3: more than to go back there and win a championship. 792 00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:12,680 Speaker 1: Huh. Well, we'll see, Yeah, we'll see what happens. If 793 00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:15,000 Speaker 1: you want to learn more about traders, you can type 794 00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:17,839 Speaker 1: that word into the search bar at house tofforks dot 795 00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:20,840 Speaker 1: com and it'll bring up this article. And since I 796 00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:23,200 Speaker 1: said search bar, it means it's time for listener mail. 797 00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:28,000 Speaker 3: This is Capgrass. Hey, guys, thanks so much for doing 798 00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:31,640 Speaker 3: the Capgrass syndrome episode. It was amazing timing came out 799 00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:35,080 Speaker 3: right around Father's Day and my father suffers from the syndrome. 800 00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:38,640 Speaker 3: It's been very painful to watch. No yeah wow. During 801 00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:40,760 Speaker 3: my marriage, we have never lived very close to my parents, 802 00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:42,560 Speaker 3: but just under three years ago we moved close enough 803 00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:44,839 Speaker 3: for day trips. About the same time, my dad had 804 00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:47,960 Speaker 3: a fairly significant stroke and it made the slow progress 805 00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:52,879 Speaker 3: of vascular dementia Alzheimer's that he also suffers from significantly worse. 806 00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:55,239 Speaker 3: He started visiting my dad on a weekly basis. I 807 00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:57,239 Speaker 3: would spend the day with him while my mom and 808 00:41:57,320 --> 00:42:01,200 Speaker 3: brother would get the Monday rush orders out. Apparently Dad 809 00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:04,360 Speaker 3: ran a mail order business. When I first started these visits, 810 00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:07,120 Speaker 3: Dad knew who I was. We talked and I shared 811 00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:09,279 Speaker 3: photos and stories of my kids. But within just six 812 00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:12,320 Speaker 3: months the cap Grass really took effect. We had to 813 00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:14,239 Speaker 3: work our way through who this strange lady was, who 814 00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:17,200 Speaker 3: lived there? Now my mom? And why did Linda my 815 00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:21,160 Speaker 3: mom leave him and watched his absolute fear when she 816 00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:23,920 Speaker 3: would walk into the room. He eventually forgot who my 817 00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:26,000 Speaker 3: brother and I were, as well as well as our 818 00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:28,759 Speaker 3: spouses and kids, although I had to giggle a little 819 00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:31,360 Speaker 3: bit during the small amount of time when my husband 820 00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:34,160 Speaker 3: was the only one of us he knew because Capgrass 821 00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:36,640 Speaker 3: affects those closest to you and then works his way out, 822 00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:39,920 Speaker 3: so the husband wasn't around him as much, so at 823 00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:42,279 Speaker 3: one point he was the only person that he recognized. Wow, 824 00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:44,600 Speaker 3: and the White felt that was kind of funny. Now 825 00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:46,800 Speaker 3: the dementia and Alzheimer's have progressed to a point of 826 00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:49,080 Speaker 3: living in the past and not even remembering moment to moment, 827 00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:51,839 Speaker 3: let alone day to day, he still doesn't know why 828 00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:54,000 Speaker 3: his family has abandoned him, even though we're all around 829 00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:57,719 Speaker 3: him all the time. I know he lives a very 830 00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:00,759 Speaker 3: fear filled and lonely life amongst strangers. I liken it 831 00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:02,759 Speaker 3: to living in a nightmare every moment of the day, 832 00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:06,640 Speaker 3: and it sounds really sad. But she was fairly upbeat 833 00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:10,239 Speaker 3: in the email like that we corresponded with just so 834 00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:13,120 Speaker 3: like people are out there, aren't crying and stuff. Thanks 835 00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:15,399 Speaker 3: for doing the podcast. When I talk about how dad 836 00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:17,480 Speaker 3: is doing, it's tough to explain what he's going through. 837 00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:19,720 Speaker 3: And now I can just send people to the podcast 838 00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:22,359 Speaker 3: to learn more about it, which really helped. That's cool, 839 00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:24,920 Speaker 3: That is Jill Overturf in Republic, Missouri. 840 00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:27,719 Speaker 1: Well thanks a lot, Jill. We appreciate you sharing that. 841 00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:30,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, and I you know, I hope things improve for 842 00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:31,359 Speaker 3: your father. 843 00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:37,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. If you have a story about something 844 00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:43,000 Speaker 1: we've talked about ever, we want to hear it, especially 845 00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:46,400 Speaker 1: if we've helped you explain that to other people. We 846 00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:49,160 Speaker 1: like that kind of thing. You can tweet to us 847 00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:52,040 Speaker 1: at sys Kate podcast. You can join us on Facebook 848 00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:54,200 Speaker 1: dot com slash Stuff you Should Know, and you can 849 00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:58,120 Speaker 1: send us an email to stuff podcasts at iHeartRadio dot com. 850 00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:03,600 Speaker 2: Radio Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. 851 00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:08,440 Speaker 2: For more podcasts myheart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 852 00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:10,400 Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.