1 00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:17,759 Speaker 1: Pushkin. A while back, David Byrne published a list of 2 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:21,560 Speaker 1: protest songs on his website. Billie Holliday's Strange Fruit was 3 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:24,120 Speaker 1: on there, so was Bob Marley's Get Up, Stand Up, 4 00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:29,200 Speaker 1: and also more unusual choices like Merle Haggard's Oki from Muskoki, which, 5 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,120 Speaker 1: if you've ever heard it is a song not protesting 6 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:36,360 Speaker 1: for change, but against change. It's the song protesting protest songs. 7 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:39,560 Speaker 1: Needless to say, we loved all this a broken record, 8 00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:42,400 Speaker 1: and we love David Byrne, going all the way back 9 00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:45,080 Speaker 1: to his days of the Talking Heads and his brilliant 10 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:49,000 Speaker 1: book How Music Works, and a million other genius things 11 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:51,960 Speaker 1: he's done over the years. So Rick Rubin and I 12 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:54,480 Speaker 1: asked David to sit with us in New York. Rick 13 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:57,319 Speaker 1: skyped in from Hawaii and the three of us had 14 00:00:57,360 --> 00:01:01,360 Speaker 1: a chat about David's list, the earliest test songs he remembers, 15 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:03,920 Speaker 1: and what it takes to write a song of protest. 16 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 1: Here we are Rick Rubin me in conversation with David Byrne. 17 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:18,319 Speaker 1: I'm Malcolm Goldwell. This is broken Record. I have a question, 18 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 1: a very naive question. Have you guys ever worked together? No, 19 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:24,320 Speaker 1: I don't think as far as I know, we've never 20 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:26,679 Speaker 1: even met. No, we've never really, we have never met. 21 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:31,600 Speaker 1: Oh wow, I've been a fan from a distance and likewise, 22 00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:35,440 Speaker 1: but we've never met. So this is historic. This is 23 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:37,560 Speaker 1: kind of historic. I mean in the smallest in a 24 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:43,600 Speaker 1: small age, in the smallest age. I mean, it's not 25 00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 1: Neil Armstrong on the moon, but you know it's like, so, 26 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 1: does that mean qualifies for your other podcast? Yeah, I'm 27 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 1: going to revisit this incident. Yes, say what really happened? Well, 28 00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:59,800 Speaker 1: welcome David, Thank you for coming on. Thank you, broken record. 29 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:03,640 Speaker 1: You had said that you wanted to talk about protest songs, 30 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:07,200 Speaker 1: and you've made this list which many of us have 31 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:11,960 Speaker 1: been scrutinizing. And can you start by defining what you 32 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 1: mean by a protest song? Ah? Yes, okay, this is 33 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:18,080 Speaker 1: kind of where I started. Not too many years ago, 34 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 1: there was a spate of articles in the press saying 35 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:25,920 Speaker 1: everybody's kind of up in arms about the political situation, 36 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:31,080 Speaker 1: social situation, polarization, etc. Etc. Where are all the protest songs? 37 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:35,040 Speaker 1: What happened was everybody just sitting back and going, Wow, 38 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:37,519 Speaker 1: we're just going to wait till this blows over. And 39 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:39,400 Speaker 1: I did a little bit of looking, and I thought, 40 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:43,720 Speaker 1: they haven't gone anywhere. They're still here. People are writing, 41 00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:47,359 Speaker 1: and what's more, some of them are big pop hits 42 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:51,080 Speaker 1: by big pop artists. So not only have they not 43 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:55,239 Speaker 1: gone away, they've become part of the mainstream. And I thought, well, 44 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 1: I'll make a little list to prove my point. What 45 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:01,840 Speaker 1: do you mean by they've become part of the mainstream. 46 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:03,520 Speaker 1: I mean they're now made in such a way that 47 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:08,359 Speaker 1: they blend in with other music. Absolutely, if you didn't 48 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:12,240 Speaker 1: listen to the words, you might think it was a 49 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:15,280 Speaker 1: love song or a big pop hit. The sound of 50 00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 1: some of the songs, not all. The sound of some 51 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:20,720 Speaker 1: of the recent songs that I put on here sounds 52 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:23,800 Speaker 1: just like any top twenty, top ten hit that you 53 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:26,600 Speaker 1: might hear. And then you listen closer to the lyrics 54 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:30,720 Speaker 1: and you realize, oh, this is about something else. Do 55 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:33,840 Speaker 1: you think that's a positive development or does it? Yes? 56 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:36,280 Speaker 1: I think it's very positive in a certain sense. It 57 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 1: shows that these ideas are being discussed and put out 58 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:43,480 Speaker 1: and for kind of a general audience, a general public. 59 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:47,240 Speaker 1: It's not necessarily a public that is a little rebellious 60 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:52,520 Speaker 1: demographic or college students who have time to protest. It's 61 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:56,520 Speaker 1: kind of the general adolescent and young pop music listeners. 62 00:03:56,520 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 1: And I thought, well, no, how about that. There's even 63 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:03,480 Speaker 1: some that are I would say, to my ears, they 64 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:07,520 Speaker 1: sound like straight up Nashville country, not the country that 65 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:10,880 Speaker 1: I know you and I might listen to, which is older, 66 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:13,720 Speaker 1: but kind of contemporary country music, which sounds more like 67 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:16,720 Speaker 1: rock music these days. And I thought you might not 68 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:21,040 Speaker 1: have expected to hear those sentiments being expressed coming out 69 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:24,760 Speaker 1: of Nashville. What's a good example of what you're talking 70 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:28,440 Speaker 1: about in that from your list? Hands Dirty by a 71 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 1: group called Delta Rey. It's kind of a bluesy country 72 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 1: song and it's about it's sung by a woman, and 73 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:41,040 Speaker 1: it's about equal opportunity and empowerment. And what do you 74 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:43,920 Speaker 1: mean I'm not suited for the job. I'm totally suited 75 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:46,760 Speaker 1: for this job. I can do this job. Or what 76 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:48,159 Speaker 1: are you saying? You're not going to listen to what 77 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:50,440 Speaker 1: I have to say? You're not? Why is that you're 78 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:53,200 Speaker 1: not looking at That's what a lot of the lyrics are. 79 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 1: There's a lot of anger in it, but it's really catchy. Now, 80 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:02,159 Speaker 1: the obvious response to that is that what a protest 81 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:06,520 Speaker 1: song is is constructed like an everyday pop song, You're 82 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 1: going to miss it. Like I think of how hard 83 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:12,080 Speaker 1: it is for I think musicians, and I would love 84 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 1: Rick to respond to this, but I think musicians as 85 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:18,760 Speaker 1: a rule overestimate the extent to which people understand the 86 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 1: subtlety is in their lyrics. Absolutely. I mean, I think 87 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:25,920 Speaker 1: that one that I mentioned, I think it's pretty hard 88 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:28,240 Speaker 1: to miss that one if you listen to it at all. 89 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:31,800 Speaker 1: It's pretty it's pretty direct. But I absolutely agree. I mean, 90 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:37,279 Speaker 1: plenty of politicians have born in the USA not knowing 91 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:41,800 Speaker 1: what it's about that it's meant ironically in a certain way. 92 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:44,080 Speaker 1: So the rah rah I was born in the USA 93 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:48,640 Speaker 1: is kind of meant in an ironic way, which adds 94 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 1: another layer of confusion to the understanding of it. I think, yeah, 95 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:55,320 Speaker 1: irony is a really hard thing to do in a 96 00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:59,120 Speaker 1: pop song like that. Shouldn't an ironic protest song be 97 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:01,599 Speaker 1: ruled out of the list to protest songs? Can we 98 00:06:01,640 --> 00:06:03,600 Speaker 1: say that if you are resorting to irony, you're not 99 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 1: actually protesting? Well it could be, It could be, but 100 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:09,240 Speaker 1: I would just say it's really hard to pull it 101 00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:12,159 Speaker 1: off so that it actually people. As you said, people 102 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:15,599 Speaker 1: really have to understand the lyrics. Yeah, they really have 103 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:18,240 Speaker 1: to be listening to the lyrics, say of that Springsteen song. 104 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:22,680 Speaker 1: It's also a subversive trick in that it allows the 105 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:28,640 Speaker 1: song to go places that the more direct protest song 106 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:31,480 Speaker 1: couldn't go. But the very fact I was thinking about this, 107 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:34,359 Speaker 1: you know, the I notice on your list is Randy 108 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:39,080 Speaker 1: Newman's Rednecks, which is it's funny because in my revision's history, 109 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:41,560 Speaker 1: I have a whole thing on that song. This is 110 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 1: that one song, yes, which I'm so obsessed with. But 111 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:46,159 Speaker 1: at one point I interviewed Ready Nowone about it and 112 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 1: he said, now, there is a song that is ironic 113 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:51,600 Speaker 1: and just the way you're talking about Rick. But he 114 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:54,320 Speaker 1: stopped playing it live because he'd play it in the 115 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:58,080 Speaker 1: South and the rednecks would all start shouting for him 116 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:00,480 Speaker 1: to play Rednecks, which is a song which is critical 117 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:05,280 Speaker 1: of rednecks, which and that criticism, that ironic criticism, ironically 118 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:08,000 Speaker 1: escape the redneck. At a certain point, you have to say, 119 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:10,600 Speaker 1: it's like, isn't it feudile to do a protest song 120 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 1: that the subjects of the protest consider to be a celebration. 121 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:19,360 Speaker 1: I think it happens pretty often. Actually, there's an example 122 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:22,240 Speaker 1: I could think of from punk rock. Black Flag had 123 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:26,000 Speaker 1: a song called TV Party, which was a sarcastic song 124 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 1: about people who just sit around and watch TV all 125 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:30,640 Speaker 1: day instead of going out and changing the world like 126 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:35,520 Speaker 1: Black Flag were doing. Yet it became an Eventually, even 127 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 1: when Black Flag would play it, the people in the 128 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 1: audience would cheer, not at the sarcasm of it, but 129 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:44,000 Speaker 1: the idea of we just want to have a TV party, 130 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:50,280 Speaker 1: Like it completely reversed. It was amazing to watch. Was 131 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:53,280 Speaker 1: it amazing to watch? You're depressing to watch? I found 132 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 1: it entertaining. I'm going to ask you guys about some 133 00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:01,520 Speaker 1: other songs that I put in. I put in some 134 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:04,760 Speaker 1: songs that were well, some will be familiar, like Oki 135 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:08,280 Speaker 1: from Muskoki put in some others like that. And there's 136 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 1: one called Rednecks, White Sox and Blue Ribbon Beer, which 137 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:17,920 Speaker 1: is again kind of a there that one is celebrating 138 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:22,520 Speaker 1: for a redneck thing. So in Okay from Muskok, who's 139 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:24,560 Speaker 1: doing the same thing in another way, And I thought, 140 00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 1: these are songs that are protesting from the other side, 141 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 1: not the side of Bob Billin or all that. And 142 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 1: they're saying, wait a minute. Our way of life has 143 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:41,160 Speaker 1: a value. Our way of life. We have things that 144 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:45,440 Speaker 1: we believe in. We don't want it totally turned upside down. 145 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:49,000 Speaker 1: I was reminded when I was looking at those songs. 146 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:52,400 Speaker 1: There's a famous essay by a black historian called the 147 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:56,080 Speaker 1: whole Country is Southern, or the whole U the whole 148 00:08:56,120 --> 00:08:58,360 Speaker 1: country is now Southern, which is or something like that, 149 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 1: which is a famous statement made by George Wallace. George 150 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:05,120 Speaker 1: Wallace in the early seventies, when he runs for president, 151 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:08,199 Speaker 1: he starts to get people from around the country sending 152 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 1: him letters saying that they agree with him. And what 153 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:14,840 Speaker 1: he meant by that was the whole US is Southern 154 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:18,200 Speaker 1: now is that the argument of the Southerner was that 155 00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:22,079 Speaker 1: we ought to think about racial politics in personal terms 156 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:26,679 Speaker 1: and not structural terms, and that once America bought that 157 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:29,199 Speaker 1: line that this is all just about people getting along, 158 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:33,360 Speaker 1: not about reforming institutions and laws, they would win. The 159 00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:37,959 Speaker 1: white Southern protest song is very often that kind of song. 160 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:43,000 Speaker 1: It's a song that personalizes structural injustice. And I consider 161 00:09:43,160 --> 00:09:46,760 Speaker 1: those kind of personal protest songs to be illegitimate protest songs. 162 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:50,800 Speaker 1: I think I have a Marxist position that a protested 163 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:55,679 Speaker 1: to be a protest song has to protest unjust institutions, 164 00:09:55,880 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 1: and if all you're doing is saying people are not 165 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 1: nice to each other, like, I don't think that Sunday 166 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:05,000 Speaker 1: Bloody sunday's a protest. I know you like you too, 167 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:07,720 Speaker 1: that's a why can't we all get a long song? 168 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:10,679 Speaker 1: I don't. It's not a protest song. Okay, Okay, it's 169 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:13,520 Speaker 1: the point. That's a good point. Okay. So I'll pick 170 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:16,720 Speaker 1: another country, one which was coming from another point of view, 171 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:19,400 Speaker 1: an older country. Don't call on the pill. You would say, 172 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:22,280 Speaker 1: this is not protesting an institution. Well, the pill is 173 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:25,600 Speaker 1: an institutional. That's an institutional for us. Yeah, it's a 174 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:28,920 Speaker 1: So she's saying, you're saying you can't be telling me 175 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:31,720 Speaker 1: what to do anymore because now I've got the pill. Yeah. 176 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:37,200 Speaker 1: I wonder do we think that the purpose of a 177 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:41,160 Speaker 1: protest song is to change somebody's mind who has a 178 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 1: different opinion, or is the purpose of a protest song 179 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:49,120 Speaker 1: to rally the like minded people around something they already believe. 180 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:53,480 Speaker 1: I think the second one is what whether it's that's 181 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:55,960 Speaker 1: what the intention is or not. I think that's what 182 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:58,880 Speaker 1: it ends up doing it ends up creating a community 183 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:03,520 Speaker 1: by saying and people go, yes, I believe that, and 184 00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:06,040 Speaker 1: look there's somebody else that believes that, and they wrote 185 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:09,600 Speaker 1: a song about it. So there's two of us now. Yeah, 186 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:13,240 Speaker 1: so it helps the tribe feel more like a tribe. Yeah, 187 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:16,959 Speaker 1: that's what I think. Would that makes that sounds right 188 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:21,880 Speaker 1: in a roundabout way, that causes larger change. Once the 189 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:28,480 Speaker 1: tribe recognizes itself, then that then things can happen after that. Yeah. 190 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 1: You know, there's a phenomenon in social science where the 191 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:37,440 Speaker 1: biggest obstacle to people to social change is that the 192 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:41,000 Speaker 1: people who are might be motivated to change radically underestimate 193 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 1: the kinds of the number of people who feel like 194 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 1: they do. So. For example, if you ask college students 195 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:52,400 Speaker 1: how many college students binge drink? There in many cases 196 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:55,080 Speaker 1: historically their estimates were way higher than the actual number. 197 00:11:55,120 --> 00:11:57,280 Speaker 1: They thought it was the norm to binge drink and 198 00:11:57,360 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 1: felt weird and left out if they didn't, and then 199 00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:02,679 Speaker 1: they were informed, actually, you have weel majority of college 200 00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:06,400 Speaker 1: students do not binge drink, and kids like, oh, I'm 201 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:08,679 Speaker 1: part of the majority. So a protest song can have 202 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:10,920 Speaker 1: that function. This is what you're saying, I guess is 203 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:15,319 Speaker 1: that it can alert people to a position and let 204 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:18,440 Speaker 1: them know they're not alone in I was thinking of 205 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 1: do you remember a song? And I forgotten new sang it? 206 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:24,440 Speaker 1: A British new wave song from the eighties called sing 207 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:28,240 Speaker 1: if You're Glad to Be Gay? Oh? Who did that song? Oh? 208 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:33,880 Speaker 1: What's his name? Robertson, Tom roberts I'm Robertson. Do you 209 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:37,720 Speaker 1: remember this song? Rick? I don't sing if You're Glad 210 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:41,080 Speaker 1: to be gay? Sing if You're happy? That way, I've 211 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:44,400 Speaker 1: now rendered it completely and a nine. And the point 212 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 1: of that song was that for it made it okay. 213 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:51,840 Speaker 1: I mean my interpretation of it was it at a 214 00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 1: time when it was difficult for people to celebrate their sexuality, 215 00:12:57,679 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 1: he sort of legitimized it. He was talking about his homosexuality, 216 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:05,200 Speaker 1: his sexuality, not in a defensive way or an angry way, 217 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:07,080 Speaker 1: but in a celebratory way. That was why that song 218 00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:09,640 Speaker 1: was such a radical I don't know if I'm getting 219 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:11,720 Speaker 1: it wrong. No, no, no, I agree, I totally agree. 220 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:14,080 Speaker 1: I think it was also had to do it the 221 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 1: way he'd looked and thinks he didn't fit any of 222 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 1: the stereotype gay stereotypes. Yeah, he looked like just another 223 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:23,360 Speaker 1: punk rocker or new wave rocker or whatever. But there 224 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:26,120 Speaker 1: that had that function that you're talking about of It 225 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:29,280 Speaker 1: was a rallying point for people who might otherwise be 226 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 1: isolated or disaffected from their from their cause. But I'm 227 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 1: still not satisfied that we have an answer as to 228 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:40,640 Speaker 1: why this question of who is the audience for a protest? 229 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:43,360 Speaker 1: So does this suggest that it when enough protests and 230 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:47,559 Speaker 1: gets an audience, it's in spite of its protests, not 231 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:52,079 Speaker 1: because of it, Like we just are we just drawn 232 00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:55,240 Speaker 1: to what's going on because it's a beautiful song sung 233 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:59,000 Speaker 1: by you know, an extraordinary saying. I think if it's 234 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 1: not a beautiful song, regardless of the content, we probably 235 00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:07,760 Speaker 1: wouldn't be drawn to it. It has to function successfully 236 00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:13,079 Speaker 1: as a song first before the message. The message is additional, 237 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:16,679 Speaker 1: but the message is rarely going to carry the weight 238 00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:21,040 Speaker 1: of the work of the song. But when you're producing 239 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:24,800 Speaker 1: a song, if someone came to you with a I 240 00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:27,600 Speaker 1: mean it could well happen. Someone you're working with comes 241 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:30,640 Speaker 1: to you has written an angry song about Donald Trump 242 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:35,520 Speaker 1: or some you know, would the lyrical content and the 243 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:38,560 Speaker 1: message change the way you would produce that song the 244 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:42,720 Speaker 1: way you help them craft its final thing. It's very unlikely. 245 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:47,040 Speaker 1: It's very unlikely that the content would would dictate. Do 246 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:49,400 Speaker 1: you ever have an experienced David of working on a 247 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:53,200 Speaker 1: song where you've musically changed it based on the lyric. 248 00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:57,960 Speaker 1: I had a song that's not very well known, but 249 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:00,840 Speaker 1: it was one of those ironic ones where I wrote 250 00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:03,920 Speaker 1: what to me seemed like a republican anthem, and I 251 00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:06,520 Speaker 1: thought I was being very ironic, and I tried it 252 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:11,560 Speaker 1: as like a fascist rally style and worked with the 253 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:14,400 Speaker 1: guys from Devo, and then I tried in another style 254 00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 1: where it was more like this beautiful brass arrangement. Both 255 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:20,920 Speaker 1: of them completely ironic, and both of them, I think, 256 00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:23,080 Speaker 1: in their own way, failed in that way. Wait what 257 00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:27,040 Speaker 1: was the song? It's called Empire, but wait what album 258 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 1: is it on? I was Grown Backwards is the name 259 00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:32,200 Speaker 1: of the album. But it's fun. But I think in 260 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:35,960 Speaker 1: that sense, I tried to adjust the music to fit 261 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:38,840 Speaker 1: what I was saying, and I think it just made 262 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:41,560 Speaker 1: it more ironic than ever. We can't prevail on you 263 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:44,000 Speaker 1: to sing like two lines of it. Come on, give 264 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:50,520 Speaker 1: us a little flavor of it. National elections, it was 265 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:59,040 Speaker 1: something on ha with stirring emotions. As I've filled this 266 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:08,440 Speaker 1: guy in Democratic Fee for National Defense. So there you go. 267 00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:13,400 Speaker 1: I like those two last two lunes. I like, we'll 268 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:16,000 Speaker 1: be back with more on protest music with our guest 269 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:25,120 Speaker 1: David Byrne after this break, We're back with more. David Byrne. 270 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 1: I think I have an example of a protest song. 271 00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 1: It sounds like a protesting ready Okay, Peter Gabriel Bico, 272 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 1: m h. It's a lament. The chorus is a searing 273 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:41,280 Speaker 1: personal lament. There's nothing pretty it is. It is a 274 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 1: beautiful song. There is no way to listen to that 275 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:49,320 Speaker 1: song without understanding that it's a protesting Yes, but that 276 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 1: but the very fact that I can think of only 277 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:54,160 Speaker 1: one is I think maybe proof of this point. Can 278 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:57,440 Speaker 1: you can you think of any others that are maybe 279 00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:03,840 Speaker 1: Mississippi goddamn? Oh mm hmm. That that that really reeks 280 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:08,760 Speaker 1: of protest? Yes, yes, yeah. She announces the name of 281 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:12,600 Speaker 1: the song before she sings it, and you just go, okay, 282 00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:15,639 Speaker 1: here we go. Yeah, I know what you're in for. 283 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:18,280 Speaker 1: We were talking before and someone I've forgotten new my 284 00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:22,640 Speaker 1: apologies said, there's a Charlie minga song about Governor Farbus 285 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:26,720 Speaker 1: of Arkansas. Oh yeah, yeah, which he just you just 286 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:29,159 Speaker 1: sort of I have heard it fables of Faubus or 287 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:32,200 Speaker 1: fables of Fabus, that's right. Yeah, that would also hit 288 00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 1: into the category of one with there's no ambiguity. You 289 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 1: know this video that is going around done by this 290 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:41,879 Speaker 1: sweet Masons of Once in a Lifetime putting Donald Trump, 291 00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:43,960 Speaker 1: have you heard? Oh? Yes, I seen? Do you know 292 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:47,919 Speaker 1: this right? No? So someone will you tell David tell 293 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:50,400 Speaker 1: us what you might have sent it to me? Someone 294 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:53,440 Speaker 1: sent it to me. It's a they've done that CG 295 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:57,200 Speaker 1: trick where they can put Donald Trump's face on top 296 00:17:57,240 --> 00:17:59,399 Speaker 1: of mine and kind of I think, just run the 297 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:04,040 Speaker 1: video all the way through, but instead it's a Donald 298 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:08,879 Speaker 1: Trumps instead of me, And I thought this is actually 299 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:11,040 Speaker 1: pretty funny. People were saying, you got to tell him 300 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 1: to take this down. You take this down. More than that, 301 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:18,680 Speaker 1: it's that they go through Donald Trump's speeches and take 302 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:21,719 Speaker 1: out all the words where he appears to be saying it. 303 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:23,560 Speaker 1: Yeah he So they have once in a you know, 304 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:26,120 Speaker 1: once in a lifetime, they have Donald Trump. They found 305 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:27,959 Speaker 1: a once, they found an inn, they found an ad 306 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:31,359 Speaker 1: and they found a lifetime. So he's actually singing a song. 307 00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:37,119 Speaker 1: It's like, it's kind of fantastic. Yeah, it's very clever 308 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:39,680 Speaker 1: as he bounces up and down in that. Yeah. I 309 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:43,639 Speaker 1: don't know what what particular protest song category that belongs to, 310 00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:46,880 Speaker 1: but we're deep into c g I irony at this point. 311 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:50,080 Speaker 1: I have a question. I think to myself, now, if 312 00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:52,159 Speaker 1: I were to write a song that dealt with an 313 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:55,399 Speaker 1: issue or of some sort like that, that I would 314 00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:59,400 Speaker 1: put it in someone's mouth, as some of these songwriters 315 00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:02,080 Speaker 1: and singers do. I would try and tell a story 316 00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:07,199 Speaker 1: through a character and have them personify an injustice or 317 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:11,280 Speaker 1: whatever it had happened. Rather than me yelling and saying 318 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:14,879 Speaker 1: this is unjust, this is unfair, this is wrong whatever 319 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:19,120 Speaker 1: like that, you just tell the story and then let 320 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:23,119 Speaker 1: the audience make the conclusion, which again could be so 321 00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:25,639 Speaker 1: what is that about? But you would hope that it 322 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:28,200 Speaker 1: would be more moving because it it has a narrative 323 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:31,480 Speaker 1: to it, and some of these people do that. Sever 324 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:35,080 Speaker 1: Earl's Billy Austin. Yes, that's really great at that. But 325 00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:37,679 Speaker 1: this is an interesting question, which is that there is 326 00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:43,520 Speaker 1: so little third person narration in popular music, which is 327 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:47,520 Speaker 1: weird only when you consider that in fiction, that's basically 328 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:51,560 Speaker 1: all there is. Some exceptions, the overwhelming. You would think 329 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:54,240 Speaker 1: there would be a thousand songs of filled with characters 330 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:56,719 Speaker 1: saying things, but there's very few. Ranny Newman does it 331 00:19:57,280 --> 00:19:58,840 Speaker 1: in country. They do it from time to time, but 332 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:03,040 Speaker 1: there's very little of this way of storytelling, which I've 333 00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:07,760 Speaker 1: never understood. Why is it? Is it hard? It's just different. 334 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:10,800 Speaker 1: I think most musicians think of it as expressing their 335 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:14,760 Speaker 1: true selves, and I think the jump to that using 336 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:18,520 Speaker 1: a fictional character to present your true self is a 337 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:21,280 Speaker 1: step that a lot of musicians don't take. Bruce Springsteen 338 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:24,480 Speaker 1: probably comes to mind as someone who really does it well. 339 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:27,840 Speaker 1: He often portrays a character in his songs. But it's 340 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:30,720 Speaker 1: true that I think for a lot of songwriters and 341 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:36,879 Speaker 1: singers it's deemed to be inauthentic if you're not singing 342 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:41,680 Speaker 1: about yourself. Yeah, I mean, but that's ridiculous. Well okay, 343 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:45,040 Speaker 1: but no, this is an interesting question. I understand on 344 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:47,680 Speaker 1: an emotional level why they would, but that's not what 345 00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:51,800 Speaker 1: fiction writers think. Yes, and it gets even more complicated 346 00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:55,600 Speaker 1: because a lot of pop songs are written in the 347 00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:58,000 Speaker 1: first person, where it's I did this and under that 348 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:00,960 Speaker 1: and they're not the person that's singing it didn't. It's 349 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:05,719 Speaker 1: written by a professional writer or somebody. You have no 350 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:10,199 Speaker 1: idea who they are, and so there's a feeling that 351 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:12,639 Speaker 1: if the singer does it really well, it feels like 352 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:17,399 Speaker 1: it's their story that they're telling, but it's not. Is 353 00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:20,640 Speaker 1: this why covers are as appealing as they are, because 354 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:23,760 Speaker 1: you have a prior relationship with the song that they're singing, 355 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:27,840 Speaker 1: often with the person who wrote the song singing at first. 356 00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:31,080 Speaker 1: It's clear then that the person covering the song is 357 00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:33,560 Speaker 1: in character. Is that a fair statements to why we 358 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:36,600 Speaker 1: like covers as much as we do. That's a good idea, 359 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:41,320 Speaker 1: I'm not sure, because when you hear someone sing a 360 00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:44,879 Speaker 1: song that you're familiar with, you think of the song 361 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:49,040 Speaker 1: as the content, but you don't necessarily think of it 362 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:53,800 Speaker 1: as the person spilling their guts. If it's an already 363 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:56,800 Speaker 1: familiar song, it's more like, this is the way I 364 00:21:56,880 --> 00:22:00,560 Speaker 1: would do this song if I wrote it. It's more 365 00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:06,760 Speaker 1: like a demonstration of a musical angle or a direction, 366 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:10,760 Speaker 1: then necessarily making it sound like the person who wrote it. 367 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 1: There are there are occasions where cover songs hit the 368 00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:17,879 Speaker 1: mark so well. The first one that comes to mind 369 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:22,680 Speaker 1: is nothing compares to you the Shade version. I can't imagine. 370 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:25,520 Speaker 1: I know Prince wrote the song, but when I think 371 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:28,119 Speaker 1: of that song, I think of its as Shanade's song. 372 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:31,480 Speaker 1: A lot of people would say that about the song Hurt, 373 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:35,440 Speaker 1: the Johnny Cash version. They would just say, he just 374 00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:39,240 Speaker 1: took it. Now he owns that song, So you would think, yeah, 375 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:41,760 Speaker 1: when it's really well done, the fact that it's from 376 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 1: somebody else else just dissolves, and you're identifying with something 377 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:49,760 Speaker 1: that somebody else wrote. You know what this reminds me 378 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:53,800 Speaker 1: of when Iced Tea got in so much trouble for 379 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:58,439 Speaker 1: cop Killer, his response was that was a character. And 380 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:02,400 Speaker 1: I think in interview he mentioned psycho Killer your song 381 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:05,960 Speaker 1: and said the inspiration for cop Killer was psycho Killer. 382 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:09,640 Speaker 1: It was just my it was a version. And what 383 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:12,720 Speaker 1: was fascinating to me was no one could accept the 384 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:15,200 Speaker 1: fact that he was writing in character, whereas with you, 385 00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:18,960 Speaker 1: it was clear that you weren't writing as a psycho killer. 386 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:21,640 Speaker 1: You were talking about a psycho you know. But with him, 387 00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:23,960 Speaker 1: I wonder whether that was one of the forms in 388 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:27,200 Speaker 1: which that One of the things we deny the group 389 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:30,480 Speaker 1: that we are excluding is we deny them the full 390 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:33,680 Speaker 1: reign of their imagination. As we say, you can only 391 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:37,040 Speaker 1: be literal in your music, whereas for people who are 392 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:39,440 Speaker 1: on our side of the fence, we will allow them 393 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:44,000 Speaker 1: much greater license. Also, if you listen to so much 394 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:48,760 Speaker 1: early hip hop, it's packed with fantasy imagery. Very little 395 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:53,240 Speaker 1: little of it is face and value of people speaking 396 00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:58,280 Speaker 1: about their lives. It's usually more paints a picture of 397 00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:01,800 Speaker 1: this opulent lifestyle than more often than not, those artists 398 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:06,359 Speaker 1: were not living but desired, And it wasn't probably until 399 00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:12,000 Speaker 1: maybe NWA was the first time that the lyrics were 400 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:16,800 Speaker 1: like gangsters talking about gang related things. That was the 401 00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:19,280 Speaker 1: first time we heard that. Prior to that, it was 402 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:24,439 Speaker 1: more an arm's length relationship between the content and the artists. 403 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:27,240 Speaker 1: Is there a reason why the genre would have started 404 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:30,560 Speaker 1: that way and only moved to a more director or 405 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:33,080 Speaker 1: authentic form a little later. I think maybe in the 406 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:35,680 Speaker 1: early days, I don't know that the people who were 407 00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:40,480 Speaker 1: making it felt comfortable celebrating that lifestyle. That's a real 408 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:45,680 Speaker 1: radical shift. It's one thing to be live in a 409 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:49,320 Speaker 1: rough lifestyle and then to sing beautiful songs. There's a 410 00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:51,960 Speaker 1: long history of people doing that, going back to the 411 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:55,920 Speaker 1: Frank Sinatras of the world. But to sing about what's 412 00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:58,919 Speaker 1: really going on is a It's a kind of a 413 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:02,640 Speaker 1: modern idea. Yeah, we'll be back with more David Byrne. 414 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:10,320 Speaker 1: After the break, We're back with more David Byrne. Can 415 00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:13,800 Speaker 1: you guys remember each remember the first protest song you 416 00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:16,840 Speaker 1: remember hearing in your life. I'm old enough that it 417 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:20,399 Speaker 1: was probably in the sixties, mid to late sixties. What 418 00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:24,199 Speaker 1: comes to mind? I think I might have thought of 419 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:29,359 Speaker 1: songs like we Shall Overcome, or Blowing in the Wind 420 00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:32,680 Speaker 1: or things like that. Blowing in the Wind is mine 421 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:37,240 Speaker 1: for sure. Did you know as a child when you 422 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:41,199 Speaker 1: first heard those songs that they were necessarily protest songs? 423 00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:46,119 Speaker 1: Not exactly, I think we shall Overcome? I mean the 424 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:49,439 Speaker 1: lyrics says it, but again kind of like BECO. It 425 00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:53,240 Speaker 1: sounds like a lament. Musically, it sounds yeah, it sounds 426 00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:57,560 Speaker 1: it almost sounds very sad, and musically it seems to 427 00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:00,600 Speaker 1: be saying, is this ever going to happen? Did you 428 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:03,199 Speaker 1: understand it when you heard it the first time? I 429 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:08,000 Speaker 1: think intuitively that conflict I was probably trying to figure 430 00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:11,639 Speaker 1: it out. Musically, in the sound of it, it sounds 431 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:15,600 Speaker 1: like it's saying it's been so long, it's so long 432 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:18,600 Speaker 1: and so long, is anything ever going to change? And 433 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:22,920 Speaker 1: yet the lyric sounds hopeful. So there was this kind 434 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:26,480 Speaker 1: of a tension or contradiction between the music and the lyric, 435 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:29,159 Speaker 1: and I think I could sense that, but I probably 436 00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 1: couldn't figure out, well, what do I what is that? 437 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:36,600 Speaker 1: What's about? What's with that? Yeah, that was probably some 438 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:39,919 Speaker 1: of the strength of the song was that that juxtaposition. 439 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:43,359 Speaker 1: It made it more interesting. I can remember as a 440 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:46,359 Speaker 1: kid when I heard like Blown in the Wind. I 441 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:48,840 Speaker 1: didn't think of it as a protest song, but I 442 00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:52,959 Speaker 1: did feel like it had a different kind of power 443 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:56,000 Speaker 1: than other music that I couldn't necessarily put my finger on. 444 00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:01,359 Speaker 1: It did something made me feel something different, And it 445 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:04,119 Speaker 1: also had a like, in the case of Blowing in 446 00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:09,800 Speaker 1: the Wind, there's a timelessness about it where I couldn't 447 00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:14,400 Speaker 1: imagine the world existing where that song wasn't already in it. 448 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:18,120 Speaker 1: You know, I can't imagine there was a time before 449 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:23,280 Speaker 1: Blowing in the Wind. It just sounds so so naturally 450 00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:27,000 Speaker 1: in the world. I do not explain it very well, 451 00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:30,280 Speaker 1: but but it just sounds like that's something that's always 452 00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:33,639 Speaker 1: been there, it's part of the natural world. I was 453 00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:38,360 Speaker 1: just in what came after what songs like that had 454 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:42,200 Speaker 1: meaning for you, David? After Dylan? Is there a kind 455 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:46,480 Speaker 1: of second wave? Oh yeah, I mean I think after 456 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:50,159 Speaker 1: I heard Bob Dylan and stuff like that in the 457 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:53,160 Speaker 1: sixties and late sixties and all the other things. Then 458 00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:55,680 Speaker 1: I started to go backwards. I staid to say, where 459 00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:57,879 Speaker 1: did this come from? You know, we're he You're hearing 460 00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 1: Woody Guthrie songs and lead Belly, and there's blues songs 461 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:08,800 Speaker 1: that are talking about conditions and social justice and things 462 00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:11,879 Speaker 1: like that, and you find there's a whole backwards tree 463 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:16,040 Speaker 1: of roots and all that of stuff that fed into that, 464 00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:19,679 Speaker 1: and you realize, oh, it didn't start OU don't know 465 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:23,960 Speaker 1: where there was a whole backstory here. When were you, David? 466 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:26,320 Speaker 1: When were you doing that? Kind of at what point 467 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:28,359 Speaker 1: in your life were you doing that kind of historical 468 00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:30,719 Speaker 1: did you go backwards and started? This has been right 469 00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:33,160 Speaker 1: after that. There's been kind of late sixties, early seventies 470 00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:37,440 Speaker 1: and whatever. And then I remember hearing like sound of 471 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:43,240 Speaker 1: Philadelphia songs like the Ojays that were singing about issues 472 00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:47,640 Speaker 1: and social situations. But they were doing it in a 473 00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:50,760 Speaker 1: pop song that was that you could dance to it, 474 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:55,479 Speaker 1: that had the sense of joy in the music, and 475 00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:59,080 Speaker 1: which was a big difference from folk singers in the 476 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 1: sixties and the pro test music in the sixties. Then 477 00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:06,040 Speaker 1: you realized, oh, it can feel good and still be 478 00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:09,880 Speaker 1: saying something you can you don't have to feel bad. 479 00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:13,240 Speaker 1: You can feel good when you say something that insight 480 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:15,360 Speaker 1: seems like it left to mark on your own songwriting. 481 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:18,040 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, I realized, oh, groove can make you 482 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:21,400 Speaker 1: want to move your body, and that is sometimes how 483 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:25,560 Speaker 1: you get the words and the other stuff in Yeah, 484 00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:29,280 Speaker 1: like humor, if you can get ideas across through humor 485 00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:32,560 Speaker 1: that people wouldn't accept if you just kind of set 486 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:35,080 Speaker 1: it to him. Are you writing music at starting to 487 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:37,760 Speaker 1: write music at the same period or no, not yet. 488 00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:41,920 Speaker 1: I tried and it was it was terrible. When is 489 00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:46,160 Speaker 1: very imitative? What were you imitating? I tried to imitate 490 00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:50,320 Speaker 1: Bob Dylan and stuff like that, and it was just horrible. 491 00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:54,920 Speaker 1: But you know, very kind of yeah, copycat kind of stuff. 492 00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:57,080 Speaker 1: How long does it take for your own sound to 493 00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:02,040 Speaker 1: emerge at least six years later or something like that. 494 00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:07,480 Speaker 1: It's been while. Is it unusual for so somebody to 495 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:10,800 Speaker 1: try try a style and fail. I think that's pretty usual. 496 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:16,680 Speaker 1: I think artists normally start by copying the artists they love, 497 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:21,320 Speaker 1: and through that practice they can find their own voice. 498 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:24,440 Speaker 1: Takes time. Some it happens much quicker, and sometimes it 499 00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:29,120 Speaker 1: takes much longer, but I think that's an regular trajectory. 500 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:31,400 Speaker 1: You don't ever revisit some of that early stuff to you? 501 00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:34,400 Speaker 1: Does it horrify you that stuff? Yeah? That would be weird, 502 00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:40,680 Speaker 1: incredibly embarrassing. There's other early stuff that I think holds 503 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:45,160 Speaker 1: up okay, where I see like lyrics that I've scribbled 504 00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:48,360 Speaker 1: down and I go, it's a different guy than who 505 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:51,920 Speaker 1: I am now, But there's something there. But yeah, some 506 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:56,600 Speaker 1: of the really early attempts are just terrible. Yeah, unrelated 507 00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:58,840 Speaker 1: to this, but it's just something I'm thinking about. When 508 00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:04,600 Speaker 1: we talk about the artartists who are primarily protest writers, 509 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:10,280 Speaker 1: it seems like the people who listen to them would 510 00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:15,400 Speaker 1: be that the tribe around them, Whereas the more unusual case, 511 00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:18,600 Speaker 1: and maybe the one that has the bigger impact, would 512 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:22,280 Speaker 1: be like Marvin Gay, Because Marvin Gay went from singing 513 00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:25,600 Speaker 1: non political songs to all of a sudden having what's 514 00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:32,560 Speaker 1: going on this very political. So a very popular artist 515 00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:36,080 Speaker 1: changes what he's singing about to all of a sudden 516 00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:40,400 Speaker 1: get very political, and it seems more revolutionary than the 517 00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:44,240 Speaker 1: guy who's always been singing the political songs. Well, the 518 00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:47,960 Speaker 1: songs are incredibly catchy and there the production is beautiful 519 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:52,480 Speaker 1: and you're totally sucked in just by the music alone, 520 00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:54,760 Speaker 1: and then there's all the young then there's all the lyrics. 521 00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:57,320 Speaker 1: It's one of the things interesting, like when we think 522 00:31:57,400 --> 00:31:59,840 Speaker 1: back about The Clash, we really think of them as 523 00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:03,440 Speaker 1: a political group. Yet if you listen to their songs, 524 00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:07,600 Speaker 1: maybe maybe a third of them are political, maybe less. 525 00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:10,480 Speaker 1: You know, so many of the songs are you know, 526 00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:12,560 Speaker 1: my baby drove up in a brand new Cadillac. You know, 527 00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:17,640 Speaker 1: there's so many traditional songs mixed in. And I think 528 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:22,320 Speaker 1: that that may have played into why The Clash were 529 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:25,880 Speaker 1: as as popular and transcendent as they were. Even though 530 00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:28,160 Speaker 1: we think of them as a political band, it was 531 00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:32,360 Speaker 1: more that it was a balanced They didn't put the 532 00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:35,680 Speaker 1: politics before the music. It was just one of their 533 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:39,120 Speaker 1: moves to the basket, let's say. And their image was 534 00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:44,440 Speaker 1: so I just remember the London Calling album cover and 535 00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:47,719 Speaker 1: just it was it took you aback like they just 536 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:52,560 Speaker 1: presented as being so radical and disruptive. They didn't even 537 00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:55,120 Speaker 1: you know the It's funny you mentioned that about ri 538 00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:58,840 Speaker 1: because I would have in my memory there everything was political. 539 00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:01,760 Speaker 1: But you're right, you be surprised if you listen back 540 00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:07,360 Speaker 1: with that focus, how many songs were not political. Yeah. 541 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:11,320 Speaker 1: I always wanted Ruly Giuliani to have his campaign song 542 00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:13,880 Speaker 1: be Rudy Can't Fail. How did he not do that? 543 00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:16,840 Speaker 1: That's great? What was there no one in Rudy Giuliani's 544 00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:20,120 Speaker 1: in a circle who was like, here's your song? I mean, 545 00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:23,280 Speaker 1: I mean if Reagan can do whoever was whatever Republican 546 00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:26,960 Speaker 1: person did use born in the USA, then Rudy Giuliani 547 00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:31,240 Speaker 1: can do Rudy Can't fail. Which is that? May be 548 00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:33,960 Speaker 1: that may be asking too much of theater circle of 549 00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:37,920 Speaker 1: Rudy Giuliani. Did either of you guys get to see 550 00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:42,200 Speaker 1: Neil Young's I think it's called Greendale. It's either Greendale 551 00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:45,880 Speaker 1: or Greenville. He made an album and then when he 552 00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:49,520 Speaker 1: performed live, he performed the album in its entirety, with 553 00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:55,040 Speaker 1: the stage play acting out the songs. I never saw that. 554 00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:58,240 Speaker 1: I think there's a is there a movie? I think 555 00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:01,520 Speaker 1: they filmed radio or something. But it was an amazing 556 00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:04,640 Speaker 1: experience to see. I remember watching it and by the 557 00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:07,120 Speaker 1: end of it, I was crying and I felt like 558 00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:12,960 Speaker 1: everybody in that theater was going to leave wanting to 559 00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:15,560 Speaker 1: take action and do something good. And it was so 560 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:19,480 Speaker 1: uplifting and so beautiful. And I can't remember another piece 561 00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:25,360 Speaker 1: of music having that such a strong connection where you 562 00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:28,319 Speaker 1: felt like, we need to get involved, we need to 563 00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:32,880 Speaker 1: take we need to participate. It's really beautiful. What was it. 564 00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:37,359 Speaker 1: What were the songs about? Variations of saving the planet? Oh? 565 00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:40,719 Speaker 1: I see? Am I right? That It took place in 566 00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:43,560 Speaker 1: one town, a small town, and you got to know 567 00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:46,680 Speaker 1: different people in the town. Yes. And the characters were 568 00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:51,000 Speaker 1: like Son, I can't remember her name, that one character's 569 00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:54,400 Speaker 1: name was Sun, and one character's name was something green, 570 00:34:54,760 --> 00:35:00,120 Speaker 1: meaning for the land. The relationship between these different characters 571 00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:04,440 Speaker 1: were metaphors for nature and it was really it could 572 00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:08,520 Speaker 1: sound very corny until you saw it and just got 573 00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:12,040 Speaker 1: completely wrapped up in the story. It was amazing. Did 574 00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:14,359 Speaker 1: you see it, David, No, I haven't, because it's what 575 00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:17,680 Speaker 1: you were talking about, this idea of putting the words 576 00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:21,600 Speaker 1: into an other characters. Yeah, yeah, I did. One on 577 00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:25,880 Speaker 1: my last tour that I heard it was a Janelle 578 00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:31,319 Speaker 1: Monet song called Hell You Tell Them About And basically 579 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:36,040 Speaker 1: I heard it like a year or a couple of 580 00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:38,440 Speaker 1: years ago, and it never ended up on any of 581 00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:41,560 Speaker 1: her records as far as I know, And it just 582 00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:47,320 Speaker 1: basically just lists the names of young people. It's mainly 583 00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:51,520 Speaker 1: male and female who'd been killed by police Trayvon Martin. 584 00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:54,239 Speaker 1: And the song is just like, say their name, say 585 00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:57,920 Speaker 1: their name. So it's an act of remembrance and an 586 00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:01,200 Speaker 1: act of like, don't forget this, don't forget this. So 587 00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:05,800 Speaker 1: it never analyzes things. It doesn't scream out for justice, 588 00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:09,279 Speaker 1: but it just said it just is a list of 589 00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:12,640 Speaker 1: these names and saying, don't forget these names, don't forget 590 00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:15,560 Speaker 1: these people. These are people. And by putting out the names, 591 00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:18,000 Speaker 1: it becomes incredibly moving because it kind of puts a 592 00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:21,800 Speaker 1: face on the issue of what they're trying to say. 593 00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:25,879 Speaker 1: I found it incredibly moving, so I started doing it 594 00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:29,160 Speaker 1: as part of my own show. Of course, I asked 595 00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:33,520 Speaker 1: I thought. I wrote to her and said, what do 596 00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:35,680 Speaker 1: you think of this kind of kind of older white 597 00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:41,160 Speaker 1: guy singing this song? She was very happy about it. 598 00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:46,319 Speaker 1: Does it work about you? It works. People find it 599 00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:49,480 Speaker 1: very moving, but we put it right at the end 600 00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:52,279 Speaker 1: of the show and it kind of puts a little 601 00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:55,200 Speaker 1: bit of a damper on things, and it does kind 602 00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:57,600 Speaker 1: of kill. It's a little bit of a vibe killer, 603 00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:00,400 Speaker 1: even though it's very rhythmic. What do you say an 604 00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:03,520 Speaker 1: introduction to it? I say that it's her song. I 605 00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:06,520 Speaker 1: say it's a song about change. It's a song about 606 00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:10,840 Speaker 1: asking people to rethink things, and it has that effect 607 00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:14,200 Speaker 1: on me. I have to question things for myself, and 608 00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:17,400 Speaker 1: I leave it at that. People they loved it, but 609 00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:21,600 Speaker 1: it's not like we're all happy and everybody's everything's fine 610 00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:23,719 Speaker 1: kind of ending. It's kind of like, no, we got 611 00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:31,200 Speaker 1: work to do. It's that kind of ending. Many thanks 612 00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:34,160 Speaker 1: to David Byrne for coming on Broken Record. To see 613 00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:37,680 Speaker 1: his full list of protest songs, visit David Byrne dot 614 00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:41,000 Speaker 1: com slash Radio. We'll also put it up on brokenrecord 615 00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:43,560 Speaker 1: dot com, along with a playlist of all the songs 616 00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:48,040 Speaker 1: featured in this episode and others. Broken Record is produced 617 00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:52,719 Speaker 1: by Justin Richmond and Jason Gambrel, with help from Meolabel, 618 00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:56,839 Speaker 1: Jacob Smith, Julia Barton, Jacob Weisberg, and of course Rick 619 00:37:56,920 --> 00:38:00,600 Speaker 1: Rubin and Bruce Hadlin. Our broken record theme music is 620 00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:03,880 Speaker 1: by the great Kenny Beats. The show is brought to 621 00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:07,080 Speaker 1: you by Pushkin Industries. I'm Malcolm Gladwell.