1 00:00:00,600 --> 00:00:04,240 Speaker 1: Hey, it's Maria no Hoosa here from Latino USA, and 2 00:00:04,320 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: as you may or may not know, I also co 3 00:00:07,920 --> 00:00:11,479 Speaker 1: host another award winning podcast. It's called In the Thick. 4 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:15,560 Speaker 1: It's a show about politics, race and culture. And recently, 5 00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:18,560 Speaker 1: In the Think ran an episode about a new anthology 6 00:00:18,680 --> 00:00:21,639 Speaker 1: that was just released. It's called A Field Guide to 7 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:25,239 Speaker 1: White Supremacy. We wanted to share that conversation here on 8 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:28,440 Speaker 1: the Latino USA podcast feed because part of the discussion 9 00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 1: pertains to themes that we've covered on Latino USA in 10 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:34,239 Speaker 1: the past. So here is In the Think and just 11 00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:36,879 Speaker 1: a little bit of a warning, there are some four 12 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:40,120 Speaker 1: letter words that will drop in this episode. Enjoy it 13 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:44,320 Speaker 1: and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts on Thank you. 14 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:49,600 Speaker 2: Iis the first order of business is to be able 15 00:00:49,640 --> 00:00:54,320 Speaker 2: to educate people about the history, the politics, the culture 16 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:57,080 Speaker 2: of white supremacy in the United States. 17 00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:01,880 Speaker 1: Hey, what's up. Welcome to In the This is a 18 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:05,200 Speaker 1: podcast about politics, race and culture. I'm Maria Nojsa and 19 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 1: we're coming towards the end of the year. 20 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 3: Julio I know, and I'm Julorica Lorella and I can't 21 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:11,280 Speaker 3: believe it. 22 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 4: Twenty twenty one. 23 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:13,759 Speaker 5: Wow, Thank Wow. 24 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:16,839 Speaker 1: I kind of went slow, but also like super fast. 25 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:17,200 Speaker 4: I know. 26 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:23,640 Speaker 1: Listen. Joining us from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania is Kianga Yamada Taylor. Yes, 27 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:27,280 Speaker 1: the fabulous historian, writer, and professor of African American Studies 28 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:29,920 Speaker 1: at Princeton University. It is such an honor to have 29 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:32,320 Speaker 1: you on our show. Kianga, welcome, Thank you so much. 30 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:34,120 Speaker 6: It's even more of an honor to be here. 31 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:40,399 Speaker 1: Nice right, and joining us from yes, my hometown city, Chicago, Illinois. Yes, 32 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:43,520 Speaker 1: Adam Goodman, Professor in the Latin American and Latino Studies 33 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:47,360 Speaker 1: Program and Department of History at the University of Illinois, Chicago. 34 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 5: What's up? 35 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:51,000 Speaker 1: What's up? Adam? Welcome to in the Think. This is 36 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:53,360 Speaker 1: your first time on in the Thick, but you've been 37 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:55,120 Speaker 1: on Latino USA. So welcome. 38 00:01:55,480 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 7: Thank you, Maria, and thanks Wilio for having me as well. 39 00:01:57,880 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 7: I'm looking forward to the conversation. 40 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:03,040 Speaker 1: And remember, everybody, we're still recording from home. So if 41 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:07,840 Speaker 1: you hear Christmas jingles or reindeer in the background or 42 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:10,520 Speaker 1: lawnmowers an entire year of recording from home, I have 43 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:11,959 Speaker 1: a feeling that's going to stop. 44 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:13,560 Speaker 6: Two. 45 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:14,880 Speaker 5: Okay, yeah, well see, so. 46 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:18,520 Speaker 1: We're going to talk about your favorite topic, white supremacy 47 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 1: and its deep roots in this country. I know because 48 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:23,320 Speaker 1: the thing is is that we do not shy away 49 00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:26,640 Speaker 1: from it. We are here for it and accountability. And 50 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:30,760 Speaker 1: we're discussing this today because both you Kianga and Adam, 51 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:34,040 Speaker 1: you both have chapters in a new anthology book. It's 52 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:37,080 Speaker 1: called A Field Guide to White Supremacy, and it brings 53 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 1: together the works of nineteen writers and researchers who get 54 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 1: into the history and manifestations of white supremacy. But before 55 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:47,160 Speaker 1: we dive in, there's something that we like to do 56 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:49,320 Speaker 1: here in the thick because we do what we want, 57 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:52,720 Speaker 1: and we call this a temperature check. It's basically like, 58 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:55,720 Speaker 1: how are you feeling, not as an academic, as a 59 00:02:55,760 --> 00:03:00,240 Speaker 1: Princeton professor or as a u OFI Chicago professor. No, no, no, Like, 60 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:04,240 Speaker 1: how are you doing? And we understand that, you know, 61 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:06,680 Speaker 1: we're very close to the one year anniversary of the 62 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 1: January sixth attempted Kudeta wow and the attack in the 63 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 1: US capital definitely white supremacy. So how are you both 64 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:18,120 Speaker 1: kind of feeling as you're reflecting on the end of 65 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:21,520 Speaker 1: the year and yeah, and how you're doing? So Adam, 66 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:22,720 Speaker 1: let's start with you what. 67 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 4: A year it's been. 68 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:26,000 Speaker 7: You know, it's like the year that felt like a decade, 69 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:28,920 Speaker 7: and as you mentioned, at the same time, it's you know, 70 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:32,480 Speaker 7: really flown by. I've had a challenging semester of sorts 71 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 7: where I see my students feeling overwhelmed, really struggling to 72 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 7: balance classes and part or full time jobs while also 73 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:45,160 Speaker 7: dealing with the ongoing pandemic and all the stressors of 74 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:48,040 Speaker 7: that brings, let alone the broader political situation. 75 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 4: And you know, I kind of had skeptical. 76 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:56,200 Speaker 7: Optimism going into the Biding administration's new immigration policies and whatnot, 77 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:58,840 Speaker 7: and thinking, if anything, I've been pretty disappointed, if not 78 00:03:58,960 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 7: entirely surprised. 79 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:01,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, we're going to be talking about that 80 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:04,200 Speaker 1: coming up, Adam. You know, a lot of the time, 81 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 1: as professors, we do have to be kind of in 82 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:10,360 Speaker 1: our heads. I'm also a professor r Kianga. When you're 83 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 1: thinking about the place of your heart and your emotional state, 84 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:16,240 Speaker 1: how do you manage that at the end of the year, 85 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:18,720 Speaker 1: and at the same time being kind of you know, 86 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:21,279 Speaker 1: this position of a lot of influence for young people 87 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:23,080 Speaker 1: at such a prestigious place like Princeton. 88 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:27,960 Speaker 6: I mean, I see in my students, a lot of 89 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:32,400 Speaker 6: stress and anxiety as well, and so you know, for me, 90 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:38,600 Speaker 6: it's trying to think about what kinds of things that 91 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:42,760 Speaker 6: we need to do to be organized around to respond 92 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 6: to the crises that I feel like are closing in 93 00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:50,560 Speaker 6: even after the kind of relief that came with the 94 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:54,039 Speaker 6: end of the Trump administration. And so, you know, it's mixed. 95 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:57,719 Speaker 6: It's both stress and anxiety, but it's also you know, 96 00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:01,480 Speaker 6: hope that those who fail up the streets in the 97 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:05,800 Speaker 6: summer and fall of twenty twenty are still motivated to 98 00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 6: continue to challenge the status quo that's becoming even more 99 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:10,760 Speaker 6: dangerous on a daily basis. 100 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:12,839 Speaker 1: Because it's the long haul. Julio, it's the long haul. 101 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, it is, Okay, So let's get into the history 102 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:20,719 Speaker 3: of white supremacy and racism and how it essentially exists 103 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 3: in all major systems in our country. We see it 104 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 3: everywhere today, from policing and the criminal justice system to 105 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 3: housing discrimination to immigration. 106 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:31,799 Speaker 5: You know what's interesting. 107 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:36,360 Speaker 3: I'm sure Adam and Kianga and Maria you all feel like, 108 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:39,480 Speaker 3: you know, after George Floyd was murdered, right and we 109 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 3: saw the protests and the word white supremacy kind of 110 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:46,240 Speaker 3: started getting used more in the mainstream more than I 111 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:49,840 Speaker 3: ever thought. Right, we are now seeing a backlash to that, right, 112 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 3: and I think, you know, if twenty twenty was sort 113 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:56,760 Speaker 3: of the awakening, twenty twenty one feels like the backlash right. 114 00:05:56,839 --> 00:06:00,360 Speaker 3: And you know, Kianga, in your chapter of this anthology, 115 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:03,480 Speaker 3: which is called the Culture of Racism, you point out 116 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:06,920 Speaker 3: the genocide of indigenous people's manifest destiny. 117 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 5: No one talks about manifest destiny. 118 00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:09,440 Speaker 1: Man. 119 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:12,400 Speaker 3: The Latin americanism me is like there, it is white supremacy. 120 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:14,120 Speaker 1: It's like white supremacist destiny. 121 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:15,040 Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly. 122 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:18,880 Speaker 3: The Chinese Exclusion Act, which is what a nice white 123 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:23,719 Speaker 3: supremacist title, Chinese exclusion, right, and the codified and subordinated 124 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:27,080 Speaker 3: status of black people. And you write in your chapter, 125 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:30,120 Speaker 3: and I'm quoting, that these are grim reminders of the 126 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:34,919 Speaker 3: millions of bodies upon which the audacious smugness of American 127 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 3: hubris is built. And you also discuss how capitalism and 128 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:43,320 Speaker 3: this idea of American exceptionalism is intertwined in all this. 129 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 5: So, Kianga, how do. 130 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:50,080 Speaker 3: We begin to unpack the centuries of oppression, you know, 131 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:53,719 Speaker 3: against people of color and especially black people. Having experience 132 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 3: in this country, all this white supremacy and seeing it now, 133 00:06:56,400 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 3: so how do we push through it? 134 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 6: Well, that's a tough question. Let me just first start 135 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 6: by saying that I think that it's important that we 136 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:09,720 Speaker 6: understand this history. That the US is a country that 137 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:14,920 Speaker 6: was founded through the genocide of the indigenous population that 138 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 6: was here, that became rich through the forced slave labor 139 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:25,440 Speaker 6: of Africans, and then that multiplied those riches one hundredfold 140 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 6: through the exploitation of successive waves of immigrants. And so 141 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 6: it means that racism is so deeply bound within the 142 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 6: marrow of the American Republic that there is not a 143 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:44,840 Speaker 6: single time in its entire history where that has not 144 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 6: been the case. And so I think that is a 145 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:51,000 Speaker 6: starting point, and then we can talk about why. And 146 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 6: so I think one of the things that is important, 147 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:56,560 Speaker 6: at least in my work is to always understand that 148 00:07:57,160 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 6: even when we're talking about the nineteenth century and really 149 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 6: the ascendants of a white supremacist doctrine that is built 150 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 6: up over the course of the nineteenth century as justification 151 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:13,080 Speaker 6: both for slavery but also for the imperial expansion of 152 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 6: the US from east to west. In this crusade of 153 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:22,040 Speaker 6: manifest destiny to essentially conquer the continent. That white supremacy 154 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:26,600 Speaker 6: and racism is not just for the sake of hating 155 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:30,040 Speaker 6: non white people who got in its pathway right, but 156 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:35,960 Speaker 6: that white supremacy is always tethered to a larger political 157 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 6: and economic objective of really the supremacy of a small 158 00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:44,560 Speaker 6: number of white people, the elite, the one percent, but 159 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:49,480 Speaker 6: through the ability to wed a much larger coalition of 160 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:53,720 Speaker 6: ordinary white people to its objectives on the backs of 161 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:57,480 Speaker 6: black and brown people, that they could be easily bought 162 00:08:57,520 --> 00:09:01,920 Speaker 6: off with some of the spoils of pit and in 163 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:06,559 Speaker 6: doing so be told that they were somehow superior, not 164 00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 6: just you know, through telling, but through access to the ballot, 165 00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:14,600 Speaker 6: through access to politics, through access to jobs that were 166 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:17,840 Speaker 6: out of the fields, so better jobs, and some measure 167 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:21,240 Speaker 6: of autonomy within their lives. But I do think it's 168 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:25,000 Speaker 6: important that for the elite whites that they did not 169 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:28,200 Speaker 6: see you know, these other white people is any more 170 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:31,440 Speaker 6: supreme than they saw black people, but that this was 171 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:35,920 Speaker 6: the cost of politics to ensure their own stability by 172 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:42,920 Speaker 6: removing ordinary white people from a potential coalition of other subjected, 173 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:47,840 Speaker 6: oppressed people. And so to that end, white supremacy is 174 00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:50,680 Speaker 6: not just about race in and of itself. It is 175 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:54,319 Speaker 6: also about class and political domination as well. 176 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 1: Well. Wake up, wake up. 177 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:57,280 Speaker 5: Right, what an excellent point. 178 00:09:57,360 --> 00:10:01,400 Speaker 3: And Adam, in your chapter, which is the Expulsion of Immigrants, 179 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:05,640 Speaker 3: you get into how anti immigrant tactics were exacerbated during 180 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:08,520 Speaker 3: the Trump administration. So talk to us about how white 181 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 3: supremacy has played out in this country's immigration system. 182 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:13,960 Speaker 7: And without a doubt, I would echo everything that Keanga 183 00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:16,760 Speaker 7: just said. And it's really important to ground kind of 184 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:21,959 Speaker 7: the history of racist immigration laws in the economic interests 185 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:26,040 Speaker 7: and the political interests of those in power who have disproportionately, 186 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:29,160 Speaker 7: of course, been white men who have long led the 187 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 7: bureaucracies and the institutions this country. And I think one 188 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:35,320 Speaker 7: of the ways we might think of it is first 189 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:39,680 Speaker 7: and foremost, immigration policy and the deportation machine as I 190 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:42,439 Speaker 7: referred to it, and did not emerge during the Trump years, 191 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:47,320 Speaker 7: nor during the Obama administration, Nope, or George W. Bush 192 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:50,319 Speaker 7: or Bill Clinton for that matter. There's a long century 193 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:53,640 Speaker 7: and a half history of the federal deportation machine, which 194 00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:58,480 Speaker 7: has been a bipartisan effort to limit the rights and 195 00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:01,800 Speaker 7: to exploit the labor of immigrants and people from all 196 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:04,439 Speaker 7: over the world who have come here successively to fill 197 00:11:04,679 --> 00:11:06,520 Speaker 7: the labor demands of the United States. And in fact, 198 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:09,880 Speaker 7: the United States we know has actively recruited people to 199 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 7: come to this country apps to fill that demand. And 200 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:14,240 Speaker 7: you know, I would just add as well that I 201 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:16,600 Speaker 7: think we can see racism playing out on multiple levels 202 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:20,160 Speaker 7: within the immigration system throughout history. So certainly there are 203 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:24,520 Speaker 7: individual agents, border patrol agents, ice agents, and there's a 204 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:28,600 Speaker 7: long history of abuses, physical abuse and beatings, rape and 205 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:32,880 Speaker 7: sexual assault, murders and shootings in fact of migrants, and 206 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:37,760 Speaker 7: individual level racism plays an unfortunate big role in so 207 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:39,439 Speaker 7: much of what we hear about in the news, and 208 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:42,720 Speaker 7: rightfully so. But it's not just kind of bad apples. 209 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:44,760 Speaker 7: We shouldn't think of it simply in that way. We 210 00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:48,160 Speaker 7: should also understand that there's a long history of implementation 211 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:52,079 Speaker 7: of immigration laws in disproportionate ways against particular groups of people. 212 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:55,520 Speaker 7: So nine out of every ten deporties throughout US history 213 00:11:55,559 --> 00:11:59,240 Speaker 7: has been Mexican. That disproportionate targeting of Mexicans has gone 214 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:03,359 Speaker 7: a long way to creating the false idea that Latinos 215 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:07,120 Speaker 7: broadly speaking, are prototypical illegal immigrants. Part of it has 216 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:10,040 Speaker 7: been through the bureaucracy and implementation of those laws that's 217 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:12,839 Speaker 7: created those false ideas, not just based on kind of 218 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:15,440 Speaker 7: racist ideas at the beginning, as Kianga was saying, but 219 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:19,040 Speaker 7: the very fact that the bureaucratic practices and the institutions 220 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:22,840 Speaker 7: have in fact led to the racism that we see. 221 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:25,040 Speaker 7: And finally, the only other thing I mentioned is that 222 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:28,360 Speaker 7: there's racism in some cases built into the laws themselves, 223 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:31,320 Speaker 7: such as the Chinese Exclusion Act or the Muslim band. 224 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 5: Absolutely exactly. 225 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 1: And also you know there's indoctrination within the Border Patrol 226 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:40,560 Speaker 1: and ICE. I mean, we are increasingly going to use 227 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:45,680 Speaker 1: this term indoctrination. Many of the agents on the ground 228 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:48,800 Speaker 1: along the US Mexico border are Latino and Latina. 229 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:50,920 Speaker 4: Themselves more than half now, I think. 230 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:54,200 Speaker 1: Right, a tremendous amount of self hatred. I think something 231 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:57,600 Speaker 1: like that. All right, So, yeah, it's deep stuff, and 232 00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:00,240 Speaker 1: I think what Kianga and what Adam are helped us 233 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:02,760 Speaker 1: to understand is how built in it is, and therefore 234 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:04,839 Speaker 1: how much work we all have to do on a 235 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:08,960 Speaker 1: daily to deconstruct, rite and reframe. Now let's move on 236 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:12,120 Speaker 1: to this question because after the murder of George Floyd 237 00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:15,960 Speaker 1: in May of twenty twenty, there was the I don't know, 238 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:19,600 Speaker 1: the most beautiful side exactly of the United States of America, 239 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:24,959 Speaker 1: like seriously, like the most beautiful transformative and it's like, yo, right, 240 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:28,800 Speaker 1: they're all around us, people in solidarity, all around us. 241 00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:31,560 Speaker 1: And it was a way that there was this kind 242 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:35,560 Speaker 1: of uprising and saying we see the racism, we want 243 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 1: to challenge it, right, and we did. Since then, of course, 244 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:42,520 Speaker 1: witness the conviction of Derek Chauvin, the former Minneapolis police 245 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:47,839 Speaker 1: officer who murdered George Floyd. And then of course Juneteenth, Yes, okay, 246 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:51,199 Speaker 1: it has become a federal holiday. There have been several 247 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:54,880 Speaker 1: police oversight and reform laws that have passed throughout the country. Okay, yes, 248 00:13:55,760 --> 00:14:00,559 Speaker 1: bigger reforms like the George Floyd Justice and policing which 249 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:05,200 Speaker 1: was already contentious among activists. This has been stalled because 250 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 1: of Republican opposition. So it's you know, three steps forward, 251 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:13,120 Speaker 1: two steps back. We haven't seen super transformative change in 252 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:15,880 Speaker 1: this sense that we really really need to combat this 253 00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:19,960 Speaker 1: structural white supremacy. So Ellie Mistahl, who is a justice 254 00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:23,000 Speaker 1: correspondent at the Nation laid it out in a previous 255 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 1: in the Thick episode, and let's take a listen to 256 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:26,440 Speaker 1: what he had to say. 257 00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:28,920 Speaker 8: We're gonna get the prize and the mail the white 258 00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:31,040 Speaker 8: people care today prize is that coming now? 259 00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 5: Jeez? 260 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:33,560 Speaker 8: Yeah, you know, Michael's one of those guys who was 261 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:36,440 Speaker 8: constantly making the point that like, all these white people 262 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:38,520 Speaker 8: are out here, Oh, we're gonna have protests. Oh we 263 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:42,720 Speaker 8: get you now, Like, yeah, they ain't changed a damn thing. 264 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 4: No, there is not one law. 265 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:48,560 Speaker 8: There's not one policy that has changed from George Floyd, 266 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:52,080 Speaker 8: from Trayvon Martin. There's not one law or policy that 267 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:55,440 Speaker 8: has changed from Michael Brown or Filando Castile or Eric Gartner. 268 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:56,720 Speaker 4: That can go on and on and on. 269 00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:02,040 Speaker 8: They never actually changed the rules. Us occasionally feel bad about. 270 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:02,360 Speaker 2: It for a week. 271 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:07,560 Speaker 1: Damn so Kianga. In a New Yorker column this past summer, 272 00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:11,920 Speaker 1: you wrote, quote, unrealized demands for change can turn into cynicism, 273 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:15,840 Speaker 1: despair and detachment, leaving the forces of reaction intact and 274 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:20,680 Speaker 1: on the offensive. So in your view, what has changed 275 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:22,960 Speaker 1: since the uprising of twenty twenty. 276 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:25,600 Speaker 6: I think we're saying that now, right. I mean, one 277 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:30,320 Speaker 6: of the things coming out of the election this past November. 278 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:33,120 Speaker 6: There were two dynamics. One was a kind of over 279 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:39,320 Speaker 6: performance from Republicans, indicating enthusiasm from rank and file Republicans 280 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:43,640 Speaker 6: to vote for their candidates, and then underperformance from Democrats, 281 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 6: particularly in urban areas in the New Jersey gubernatorial race. 282 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:53,480 Speaker 6: And this is part of the fallout of consistent promises 283 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:59,040 Speaker 6: that are almost always never realized. And to me, in 284 00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:01,360 Speaker 6: one of the points that try to make in the 285 00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:03,320 Speaker 6: first book I wrote, from Black Lives Matter to Black 286 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:06,400 Speaker 6: Liberation was that in many ways we can understand the 287 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 6: eruption of the Black Lives Matter movement or what became 288 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:14,360 Speaker 6: the Black Lives Matter movement as profound disappointment with the 289 00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:19,960 Speaker 6: self imposed impotency of the Obama administration in the face 290 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:23,840 Speaker 6: of the murder of treymont Martin and then the kind 291 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:29,480 Speaker 6: of successive publicized murders of black people thereafter. And you know, 292 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:31,760 Speaker 6: when we look at the events of the summer of 293 00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:35,320 Speaker 6: twenty twenty, which in many ways were watershed protests that 294 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:40,560 Speaker 6: brought together both the inadequate response to the federal government 295 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:45,640 Speaker 6: to the Corona virus pandemic in its disproportionate impacts in 296 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:50,440 Speaker 6: black and brown communities and then a you know, intense 297 00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:55,720 Speaker 6: protests uprising rebellion against police brutality. And it is true 298 00:16:56,080 --> 00:17:01,360 Speaker 6: that a year later there is very littlestive to show 299 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:03,720 Speaker 6: for that. I mean, there are reforms here, there are 300 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:09,600 Speaker 6: reforms there, but the kind of wholesale transformation of policing 301 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 6: that was embodied in the slogan defund the police has 302 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:16,200 Speaker 6: not been fulfilled. Now the problem is to just place 303 00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:18,919 Speaker 6: that on white people. I mean, that might be a 304 00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:22,000 Speaker 6: part of it, but I think there's a bigger problem, 305 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:26,040 Speaker 6: which has to do with the way that political organizers. 306 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:30,119 Speaker 6: I think, on the ground activists were convinced to some 307 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:34,000 Speaker 6: extent that they should join the Biden coalition, that they 308 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:39,399 Speaker 6: should attach their hopes and dreams of transforming policing in 309 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:43,240 Speaker 6: the US to the Democratic Party. And what has really 310 00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:46,879 Speaker 6: happened is that this created a fight inside of the 311 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:49,840 Speaker 6: Democratic Party. Not a fair fight. I mean, when we 312 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:52,199 Speaker 6: talk about the left wing of the Democratic Party, we 313 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:56,199 Speaker 6: are exaggerating. We're talking about six or seven people, you know, 314 00:17:56,760 --> 00:17:59,320 Speaker 6: who had made a lot of noise and have been 315 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 6: rock us. But it created conflict within the party. But 316 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:07,680 Speaker 6: it also meant for some of them that to demonstrate 317 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:13,080 Speaker 6: their bonafides among the real estate developers and corporate people 318 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:16,959 Speaker 6: that they draw funding from inside the Democratic Party, that 319 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:19,919 Speaker 6: they had to go hard against defund the police. So 320 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:22,480 Speaker 6: you look at the mayoral race in Buffalo, New York 321 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:26,159 Speaker 6: where India Walton, a black working class woman who's a 322 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 6: Democratic socialist, goes against Byron Brown, who's a fifteen year 323 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:34,199 Speaker 6: incumbent who is the co chair of the Democratic Party 324 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:37,840 Speaker 6: of the State of New York, who takes money from 325 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:41,399 Speaker 6: the Republican Party to send negative mailers out about India 326 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:45,919 Speaker 6: Walton to denounce and smear her. And central to his 327 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:50,479 Speaker 6: campaign is not just being against defund the police, but 328 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:53,840 Speaker 6: then coming out in praise of the police, highlighting the 329 00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:57,560 Speaker 6: police in his television ads that he is the man 330 00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:00,840 Speaker 6: of the police. And so this is a just another 331 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:05,280 Speaker 6: example of the political betrayal of the Democratic Party, who 332 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:10,240 Speaker 6: prides itself on its black working class, it's brown working 333 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:15,600 Speaker 6: class constituencies as the base of its party, betraying them 334 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:18,040 Speaker 6: once again every single time. 335 00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:22,680 Speaker 1: And Adam, in terms of immigrants, many of whom are black, right, 336 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:25,920 Speaker 1: it is, let us just throw you under the bus. 337 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:28,280 Speaker 1: I think, Kianga, you're so right, Like I look at 338 00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:32,880 Speaker 1: so many people activists Latinos and Latinez who said we're 339 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:35,640 Speaker 1: going to go in with the Buyn administration. I'm a journalist. 340 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:38,840 Speaker 1: I'm always like, m are you sure about that? Adam? 341 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:41,439 Speaker 1: So for you, you know, just before we move on, 342 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:44,720 Speaker 1: what is your sense of what needs to be done 343 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:48,000 Speaker 1: in terms of keeping momentum in the movement, because also 344 00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:52,159 Speaker 1: within the immigrant rights movement, you know, this beautiful is 345 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:55,040 Speaker 1: the coalition building that we need in order for this 346 00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:58,680 Speaker 1: to completely survive. And at the same time, you're seen 347 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:02,040 Speaker 1: immigrants and refuse are just fucking exhausted if they can 348 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:03,480 Speaker 1: make it into the United States. 349 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:05,680 Speaker 4: How much time do we have today? 350 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:10,000 Speaker 1: No, not a lot, because we still got another question. 351 00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:12,160 Speaker 1: We actually have another three questions. 352 00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:14,439 Speaker 4: No thoughts, man. 353 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:16,920 Speaker 7: I think people went in with high hopes and optimism, 354 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:18,320 Speaker 7: and I think, you know, we need to maintain that 355 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:20,720 Speaker 7: on some level. But we also need to understand the 356 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:24,760 Speaker 7: long history of punitive policies that Democrats and Republicans have 357 00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 7: doubled down on time and time again. Joe Biden included, 358 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:30,879 Speaker 7: I think the latest numbers I saw that, I think 359 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:33,479 Speaker 7: they're one point two million or one point three million 360 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:36,440 Speaker 7: expulsions at the end of this fiscal year. In part 361 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:40,240 Speaker 7: because of the Title forty two expedited removals that the 362 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:44,320 Speaker 7: Trump administration implemented under the guys of the pandemic, saying 363 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:47,680 Speaker 7: that migrants and refugees at the border represented a threat 364 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:50,000 Speaker 7: to public health. That's been challenged in the court and 365 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 7: part of a group of historians that have put together 366 00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:55,240 Speaker 7: an amicus brief and support of that case in challenging 367 00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:57,399 Speaker 7: Title forty two's legality. 368 00:20:58,119 --> 00:21:01,240 Speaker 4: But I think what we see is that politicians, whether it's. 369 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:04,959 Speaker 7: Barack Obama or perhaps Joe Biden, now they haven't necessarily 370 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:07,800 Speaker 7: taken the lead on immigration as activists and members of 371 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:11,080 Speaker 7: the community would like. They've responded to bottom up pressure 372 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:14,480 Speaker 7: from sustained organizing and broad based solidarity. 373 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:16,320 Speaker 4: I mean, that's why we have DACA today. 374 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:19,159 Speaker 7: It was only because young people participated in as the 375 00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:23,480 Speaker 7: Silviis obedience, sitting in and Senator John McCain's office and 376 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:26,240 Speaker 7: sitting in and blocking off public roads, which kind of 377 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:29,600 Speaker 7: forced Obama's hand, And that's going to need to be 378 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:32,080 Speaker 7: an essential part of any kind of movement going forward. 379 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:34,760 Speaker 7: I think that in many ways we've seen the Body 380 00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:38,240 Speaker 7: administration maintain the status quo despite the fact that Alexandro 381 00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:41,640 Speaker 7: Majorcas is the head of DHS and every people an 382 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:45,679 Speaker 7: immigrant Cuban refugee family. Correct, And I think there's interesting 383 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:48,560 Speaker 7: kind of lessons learned here. Perhaps where Myoricus has kind 384 00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:50,400 Speaker 7: of talked to talk, he hasn't always walked the walk. 385 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:53,240 Speaker 7: And there's a parallel here to the late nineteen seventies 386 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:57,359 Speaker 7: and Jimmy Carter's administration when he appointed Leonel Castillo head 387 00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:00,880 Speaker 7: of the Immigration Naturalization Service the Mexican America and from 388 00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:04,320 Speaker 7: Houston kind of went in with similar mentality of providing 389 00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:06,000 Speaker 7: more services in the immigrant community. 390 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:09,800 Speaker 1: Yeah. In fact, in terms of modern times, it was 391 00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:14,480 Speaker 1: Jimmy Carter who was taking Haitian and Cuban people en 392 00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:18,080 Speaker 1: mass and putting them into these detention camps. So yeah, 393 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:20,320 Speaker 1: and at the same time he was, you know, preaching 394 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:23,560 Speaker 1: peace and love, so this issue of immigration. 395 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:25,359 Speaker 5: Yeah, oh, I love this history lesson. 396 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:25,680 Speaker 4: Yeah. 397 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 7: So there's similar moves made where they're encouraging people to 398 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:31,960 Speaker 7: refer to immigrants not as illegal but as undocumented workers, 399 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:34,720 Speaker 7: similar to what's happening today. But you know, the deportation 400 00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:37,240 Speaker 7: machine is churning along, deporting one hundreds of thousands and 401 00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:39,600 Speaker 7: even more than a million people during now the majorcas 402 00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:43,080 Speaker 7: in Biden years. So unless we move away from enforcement 403 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:46,200 Speaker 7: and more toward an immigration system to provide services to 404 00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:48,960 Speaker 7: the immigrant community, will be in the same place. 405 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:52,200 Speaker 1: Hi, Chie, it used to be called that, huh, used 406 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:55,440 Speaker 1: to be called immigration Naturalization Service. 407 00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:00,280 Speaker 3: And I think that's the big thing in all this, Adam, 408 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:02,120 Speaker 3: And I'm glad you brought up the history. And I'm 409 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 3: glad you mentioned, you know, Title forty two and some 410 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:07,320 Speaker 3: of these Trump policies, even like remain in Mexico that 411 00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:10,280 Speaker 3: are still lingering right a year later after we saw 412 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:12,919 Speaker 3: a presidential candidate and let's remember this. 413 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 5: I mean, we do have the tape. Let's go to 414 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:15,720 Speaker 5: the videotape. 415 00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:18,879 Speaker 3: You had a presidential candidate who was saying, you know, 416 00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:20,240 Speaker 3: a humane immigration system. 417 00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:22,600 Speaker 5: We're going to get rid of these awful Trump policies. 418 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:24,480 Speaker 3: There was a lot of voters that were believing in that, 419 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:26,320 Speaker 3: a lot of immigrant rights actives who are like, we're 420 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:29,199 Speaker 3: going to take a chance. I will argue that the 421 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:33,320 Speaker 3: biggest drop that Biden has seen in his approval has 422 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:37,159 Speaker 3: been Latino voters. And I'm not surprised, given you know, 423 00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:38,879 Speaker 3: this feeling of like here we go again. 424 00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:42,240 Speaker 1: Excuse me, did you say the Latino voters that being 425 00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:47,560 Speaker 1: the second largest voting in the United States? Okay, okay, okay, gotcha. 426 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:49,280 Speaker 5: If you look at the polls and five point thirty 427 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 5: eight did something. 428 00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:52,040 Speaker 3: A couple of months ago, Biden saw the biggest decline 429 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 3: in approval with Latinos. 430 00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:54,360 Speaker 5: So I think the. 431 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:58,680 Speaker 3: Question is, you know we're seeing this over and over again. 432 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:01,159 Speaker 3: I mean, you were on Latino USA talking about you know, 433 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:04,199 Speaker 3: no matter who's in office, the deportation machine continues to 434 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:07,680 Speaker 3: be humming and moving along. So Adam, just to continue 435 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:10,959 Speaker 3: this conversation because we know the history. But you know, 436 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:13,720 Speaker 3: when we see people who profit from this machine, from 437 00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:17,560 Speaker 3: employers looking for exploitable labor to consumers only wanting to 438 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:20,439 Speaker 3: pay cheap prices for goods, how do we begin to 439 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:23,960 Speaker 3: look at not contributing to this deportation machine? You know, 440 00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:27,360 Speaker 3: how does it begin to change in all this because 441 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:29,520 Speaker 3: we're hearing a lot of talk and we're not seeing 442 00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:31,639 Speaker 3: the action. So what would you think would have to 443 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:32,880 Speaker 3: be happening next here? 444 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:35,600 Speaker 4: And this speaks to such an important point. I'm glad 445 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:36,080 Speaker 4: you brought it up. 446 00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:37,880 Speaker 7: And I actually think there's a lot of overlap here 447 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 7: with what we see in Black Lives Matter organizing activism. 448 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:44,760 Speaker 7: And you know, my biggest fear when Biden took office 449 00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:47,159 Speaker 7: was that everyone think that, look at that our problems 450 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:49,600 Speaker 7: are solved. Trump's out of office. That's that right, and 451 00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:51,879 Speaker 7: really the battle is just beginning in a sense. So 452 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:54,439 Speaker 7: assume that kick Trump out office was, you know, the 453 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:56,240 Speaker 7: end goal and that was going to resolve our problems 454 00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:59,880 Speaker 7: is a real mistake. And I think what we need 455 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:04,320 Speaker 7: to continue to do is to apply pressure from below 456 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:07,879 Speaker 7: and to really I think, push for broader reforms. There 457 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:12,639 Speaker 7: are ways to minimize the role that ICE and border 458 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:16,320 Speaker 7: patrol play in our society, to minimize the power they 459 00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:19,720 Speaker 7: have over the lives of non citizens and citizens. You know, 460 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:21,520 Speaker 7: I had an opportunity to speak with a group of 461 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:24,640 Speaker 7: US Congress people about my book, and as soon as 462 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:27,600 Speaker 7: I mentioned abolish ice, kind of everyone turned off and 463 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:30,040 Speaker 7: quickly changed the discussion. I didn't want to hear any 464 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:32,439 Speaker 7: of that, right, But I actually think there are ways 465 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:35,040 Speaker 7: to achieve that end goal, perhaps through other means, and 466 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 7: part of it's going to be through legislative reform. I mean, 467 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:40,760 Speaker 7: I think that is essential here. The key is to 468 00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:45,359 Speaker 7: minimize the number of people over whom immigration authorities have 469 00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:50,760 Speaker 7: power and have discretionary authority. Right, broh, There's two things 470 00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:54,520 Speaker 7: here that I think are key. One is to provide 471 00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:57,160 Speaker 7: a way for people in the country without status or 472 00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:01,119 Speaker 7: without authorization to regularize their status and to become permanent 473 00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:04,160 Speaker 7: residents and eventually citizens. And another key piece of any 474 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:06,720 Speaker 7: kind of legislative reform would be to provide a way 475 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:09,000 Speaker 7: for people in the future to come to the country 476 00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:12,600 Speaker 7: with status and with authorization. Unless both those things happen, 477 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:15,080 Speaker 7: we're not going to see a big change because at 478 00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:19,800 Speaker 7: that point there are fewer people over whom ICE exercises power, 479 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:22,080 Speaker 7: and then we can start to make a case as 480 00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:24,840 Speaker 7: to why we should shift billions and billions of dollars 481 00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:26,960 Speaker 7: away from enforcement and tour services. 482 00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:30,360 Speaker 1: So just so you know, American citizens, you too can 483 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:33,400 Speaker 1: be you know, ICE and border patrol are not That's 484 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:35,199 Speaker 1: what I was like limiting. It's like, yeah, we got 485 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:37,600 Speaker 1: to because you know, they're just thinking about expanding and 486 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:41,360 Speaker 1: American citizens need to understand they coming for you too. Yes, 487 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:44,000 Speaker 1: it's all around us. So look, as you know, I've 488 00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:47,560 Speaker 1: been reporting on the issue of immigration for decades, and 489 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:49,800 Speaker 1: in November I had the chance to go down and 490 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:53,840 Speaker 1: witness the movement north of people. People call them caravans. 491 00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:57,200 Speaker 1: That has become a buzzword. And so I experienced something 492 00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:00,080 Speaker 1: very differently if I was able to change the narrative, 493 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:02,199 Speaker 1: and which is what we're doing for this reporting for 494 00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:07,000 Speaker 1: Latino USA in this continuing series called Moving Borders. So 495 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:11,840 Speaker 1: what was beautiful, Kianga, was that like southern Mexico because 496 00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:15,280 Speaker 1: of the Mexican immigration policies that are you know, supportive 497 00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:18,399 Speaker 1: of Trump and kind of stayed that way. So people 498 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:22,040 Speaker 1: are stuck in southern Mexico. Southern Mexico has become increasingly black, 499 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:27,520 Speaker 1: he says, a Haitian migrants and refugees, African migrants and refugees, 500 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,400 Speaker 1: and so to witness this happening in Mexico and kind 501 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:33,399 Speaker 1: of like forcing like okay, well let's deal with the 502 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:37,399 Speaker 1: racism right here. But the response to that was this 503 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:39,880 Speaker 1: caravan moving north. I call it a caravan of love 504 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:43,720 Speaker 1: and solidarity because there it was not just Central Americans. 505 00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:47,400 Speaker 1: It was Central Americans, it was Africans, it was Haitians, 506 00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:51,600 Speaker 1: it was Venezuelans, it was Cubans, and it was like 507 00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:54,600 Speaker 1: love amongst us, all love, and like we got this 508 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:57,240 Speaker 1: like seriously. I mean, I'm so glad that I had 509 00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:59,520 Speaker 1: a chance because I can now reframe this. Y'all are 510 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:02,040 Speaker 1: talking about caravan of migrants or oh we're so scared. 511 00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:04,880 Speaker 1: It's like they are going to bring so much love 512 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:08,359 Speaker 1: and hope and potential you don't even see. So specifically, Keanga, 513 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:13,119 Speaker 1: can you talk about the importance of multiracial coalitions, the 514 00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:17,240 Speaker 1: understanding that mass incarceration is tied to the mass detention, 515 00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:21,840 Speaker 1: deportation industrial complex. These things are tied your thoughts on 516 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:25,479 Speaker 1: how we must how we do the coalition building, what 517 00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:27,800 Speaker 1: is it? The language? Is it, the action? What do 518 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:28,359 Speaker 1: we need to do? 519 00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:31,960 Speaker 6: It's crucial and it's really the only way forward. And 520 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:35,040 Speaker 6: so when we talk about what needs to change, I 521 00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:38,560 Speaker 6: mean we can talk about the need for different policies, 522 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:43,000 Speaker 6: and that's important. The question is what force is generated 523 00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:46,680 Speaker 6: to make that happen. Because it's clear, left to their 524 00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:51,960 Speaker 6: own devices, neither party is seriously interested as party apparati, 525 00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:56,760 Speaker 6: neither of them are seriously interested in pursuing the changes 526 00:28:56,800 --> 00:29:00,200 Speaker 6: that ordinary people on the ground want. And so I 527 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:05,239 Speaker 6: think that you know, solidarity is about the recognition that 528 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:10,280 Speaker 6: even if you are not immediately impacted by something that 529 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:14,160 Speaker 6: you still have the capacity to see that it still 530 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:17,480 Speaker 6: affects all of us, and that there is some level 531 00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:21,240 Speaker 6: of human connection and compassion that compels people to act. 532 00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:23,760 Speaker 6: If you look at you know, the US spends eighty 533 00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:27,000 Speaker 6: billion dollars a year to maintain its criminal justice system. 534 00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:30,600 Speaker 6: I don't know the exact number, the tens of billions 535 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:34,560 Speaker 6: of dollars a year that it spends to police its border. 536 00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:38,840 Speaker 3: It's the largest law enforcement budget right in the United States, 537 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:40,720 Speaker 3: like in terms of immigration enforcement. 538 00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:42,880 Speaker 1: If you take us, more money than all of the 539 00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:46,480 Speaker 1: other federal law enforcement agency combined, combined. 540 00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:48,320 Speaker 4: And so if we. 541 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:51,520 Speaker 6: Think about the hundreds of billions of dollars that is 542 00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:57,640 Speaker 6: spent on security, surveillance, incarceration, and we compare that to 543 00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:03,360 Speaker 6: the inept adequate response to the pandemic and what that 544 00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:09,120 Speaker 6: exposed about our society, what it exposed about how ordinary people, 545 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:14,920 Speaker 6: particularly black and Latinos Latinos in this country live, then 546 00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:18,840 Speaker 6: that in and of itself becomes the basis of coming 547 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:24,120 Speaker 6: together to fight for money away from police policing, from 548 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:28,680 Speaker 6: law enforcement, from surveillance, from immigration, to actually invest in 549 00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:30,840 Speaker 6: our lives and communities. I mean, that really is what 550 00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:34,000 Speaker 6: defund the police is all about. That really is part 551 00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:38,360 Speaker 6: of what abolish ice is about. And so I think 552 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:42,760 Speaker 6: that there are tangible and specific ways in which we 553 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:48,280 Speaker 6: can talk about how the oppression of one becomes a problem, 554 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:52,560 Speaker 6: a consequence, an injury to everyone else, and that that 555 00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:56,160 Speaker 6: is the basis upon which we should be trying to organize, 556 00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:59,040 Speaker 6: is to see how we are impacted by this. And 557 00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:03,880 Speaker 6: I started by talking about white supremacy as a class project, 558 00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:08,640 Speaker 6: and I think Trump exemplified and demonstrated that in such 559 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:12,360 Speaker 6: clear ways. On the one hand, tax cuts for the 560 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:17,480 Speaker 6: richest people and the visceration of domestic spending and the 561 00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:20,760 Speaker 6: social safety net for the rest of us, and meanwhile 562 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:25,840 Speaker 6: blaming immigrants in the most disgusting, racist and vicious terms 563 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:29,240 Speaker 6: for the standards and quality of life for ordinary people 564 00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:32,240 Speaker 6: and going so far. I don't know if people realize this. 565 00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:36,240 Speaker 6: When Trump was running in twenty sixteen, he made overtures 566 00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:39,880 Speaker 6: and appeals to black voters, you know, a New Deal 567 00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:44,080 Speaker 6: for Black people, where he we likely blamed immigrants for 568 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:49,400 Speaker 6: poverty and unemployment. Absolutely, we have to counter that. We 569 00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:53,040 Speaker 6: have to argue about that instead of avoiding it, instead 570 00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:56,960 Speaker 6: of talking about something else. And so that's part of 571 00:31:57,120 --> 00:31:59,360 Speaker 6: what it will mean to build solidarity right now? 572 00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:09,960 Speaker 5: Kiehga and wow. 573 00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:13,400 Speaker 3: And so let's move on to our final segment, which 574 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:16,840 Speaker 3: we call lamos or the last one before you. 575 00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:17,720 Speaker 5: Go or last call. 576 00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:22,440 Speaker 1: So the last shot of tequila, my nightly. 577 00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:25,840 Speaker 5: Let's change it. We need to rebrand it next year, 578 00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:28,280 Speaker 5: maybe you get a sponsor. All right, there you go. 579 00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:31,400 Speaker 1: Damn always thinking like an entrepreneur. 580 00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:32,440 Speaker 5: All right. 581 00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:35,200 Speaker 1: So for the last shot, this new book, A Field 582 00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:39,080 Speaker 1: Guide to White Supremacy, which I am traveling with as 583 00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:41,120 Speaker 1: I left the United States and I am now in 584 00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:44,000 Speaker 1: the Dominican Republic. I'm traveling with it. I'm reading it, 585 00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:46,960 Speaker 1: I'm understanding it, I'm thinking about it all the time. 586 00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:49,960 Speaker 1: It is in fact written for all of us, but 587 00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:54,600 Speaker 1: in particular journalists, activists, policymakers, anyone really who wants to 588 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:57,520 Speaker 1: understand the history of white supremacy and how it looks 589 00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:00,880 Speaker 1: like today in our country. So how do we translate 590 00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:04,080 Speaker 1: the teachings from this book into actual action and solutions 591 00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:07,000 Speaker 1: that take on white supremacy in our day to day 592 00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:10,040 Speaker 1: lives and lead us right now? We do it by 593 00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:13,400 Speaker 1: creating in the thick and having these conversations twice a 594 00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:17,040 Speaker 1: week and pushing it like in part, but more what 595 00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:19,920 Speaker 1: can people do? So let's start with you, Adam, and 596 00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:21,040 Speaker 1: we'll end with Kianga. 597 00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:23,800 Speaker 7: I think that this book can really serve as a 598 00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:27,800 Speaker 7: wonderful resource for anyone trying to understand how white supremacy 599 00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:30,440 Speaker 7: has operated, both past and present. And I think there's 600 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:33,000 Speaker 7: a really key lesson here, to put it succinctly, is 601 00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:37,160 Speaker 7: that nothing's inevitable. And there's specific policies and policy decisions 602 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:39,360 Speaker 7: that have brought us to this point that have helped 603 00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:42,160 Speaker 7: develop kind of the white supremacist order that we have 604 00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:45,760 Speaker 7: had and seen play out and increasingly disturbing ways in 605 00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:48,480 Speaker 7: recent years. And there are different policies that could point 606 00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:51,040 Speaker 7: us in a different direction. So I don't want people 607 00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:54,400 Speaker 7: to walk away feeling completely demoralized and immobilized by these 608 00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:58,840 Speaker 7: seemingly inexorable policies. We need to understand how white supremacy 609 00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:02,120 Speaker 7: has operated in a concrete way. That's the starting point 610 00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:04,360 Speaker 7: to understand how to dismantle it all. 611 00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:05,920 Speaker 1: Right, Kianga dig us out lao. 612 00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:06,720 Speaker 7: Yeah. 613 00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:11,760 Speaker 6: I think that the first step in really organizing anything 614 00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:15,080 Speaker 6: effective is to really understand what it is that you 615 00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:18,359 Speaker 6: are fighting against. And I think that when it comes 616 00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:22,040 Speaker 6: to white supremacy and racism, that there has been an 617 00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:27,200 Speaker 6: ongoing disinformation campaign for decades, and I mean people think 618 00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:30,800 Speaker 6: it's controversial to talk about racism in the first place, 619 00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:33,960 Speaker 6: and so we can see the backlash to the protest 620 00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:37,040 Speaker 6: of twenty twenty is really at the core of it 621 00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:39,239 Speaker 6: has been a denial that there is any kind of 622 00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:43,520 Speaker 6: systemic racism, that there is anything such as white supremacy 623 00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:46,160 Speaker 6: in the United States. And so I think the first 624 00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:50,040 Speaker 6: order of business is to understand what it is is 625 00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:53,840 Speaker 6: to be able to have working definitions, is to be 626 00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:58,400 Speaker 6: able to educate people about the history, the politics, the 627 00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:01,520 Speaker 6: culture of white supremacy in the United States. 628 00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:01,880 Speaker 5: You know. 629 00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:05,320 Speaker 6: I think related to that is what Maria has raised, 630 00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:08,319 Speaker 6: just in terms of the show that these are things 631 00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:10,160 Speaker 6: that you have to talk about, that you have to 632 00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:15,120 Speaker 6: be in community and conversation and dialogue about, and not 633 00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:19,000 Speaker 6: just in educating other people, but how we who see 634 00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:24,520 Speaker 6: ourselves as vested in political organizing and movement building against 635 00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:27,680 Speaker 6: these structures, what do we understand about them? What do 636 00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:30,480 Speaker 6: we understand about the history of white supremacist movements, but 637 00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:33,840 Speaker 6: also what people have done in the past, what historical 638 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:38,520 Speaker 6: lessons are there to learn from previous campaigns. What historical 639 00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:42,000 Speaker 6: lessons are there to learn from previous instances in which 640 00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:46,240 Speaker 6: solidarity across race and ethnicity was able to be built 641 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:49,920 Speaker 6: and developed, and how can we generalize those lessons to 642 00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:53,560 Speaker 6: the contemporary situation. And so in that sense, there is 643 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:57,560 Speaker 6: much more to learn to be learned about this issue. 644 00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:00,319 Speaker 6: In this book. It should be considered one tool in 645 00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:05,440 Speaker 6: the toolbox that is necessary to arm ourselves politically, intellectually 646 00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:09,560 Speaker 6: and historically during this very frightening time in this country's history. 647 00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:12,799 Speaker 1: And to do it with heart. And if you make 648 00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:15,200 Speaker 1: a mistake, if you do it with heart, you know 649 00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:19,880 Speaker 1: it's okay. Like we are in community in discussion. And 650 00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:22,600 Speaker 1: I just really want to thank you Kianga Yamada Taylor, 651 00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:26,400 Speaker 1: Professor of African American Studies at Princeton University, and Adam Goodman, 652 00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:29,080 Speaker 1: Professor in the Latin American and Latino Studies Program and 653 00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:33,719 Speaker 1: Department of History at the University of Illinois, Chicago. Thank 654 00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:37,040 Speaker 1: you so much. Ride, Julio and I were listening to 655 00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:39,600 Speaker 1: every single word amazing that the both of you said, 656 00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:42,280 Speaker 1: and you've also given us a bit of a roadmap 657 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:44,680 Speaker 1: for twenty twenty two. So thank you so much for 658 00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:46,839 Speaker 1: joining us on this episode of In the Thank thank you, 659 00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:53,880 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. Hi'm Mariaojosa and I'm hud Rica. Remember, 660 00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:59,960 Speaker 1: dear listener, for the last time, please go to Apple podcast. 661 00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:02,640 Speaker 3: We're getting them in the thousands on the rate and reviews, 662 00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:05,080 Speaker 3: so the people are doing Hey, we're getting new reviews. 663 00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:05,840 Speaker 5: It really helps. 664 00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:07,080 Speaker 1: So thank you. 665 00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:08,560 Speaker 5: You see asking, keep asking. 666 00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:11,520 Speaker 1: There you go, spoken from the real digital dude who 667 00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:14,160 Speaker 1: tells us, Hey, so yeah, we really love it when 668 00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:16,520 Speaker 1: you rate and review us, and it really really really 669 00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:18,400 Speaker 1: does help. And remember that you can listen to In 670 00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:20,759 Speaker 1: the Thick on Pandora, Spotify, wherever you choose to get 671 00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:23,120 Speaker 1: your podcasts on. Check us out on the web at 672 00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:25,880 Speaker 1: inththink dot org, follow us on Twitter, on Instagram at 673 00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:28,319 Speaker 1: In the Thick Show, and remember to like us on 674 00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:31,160 Speaker 1: Facebook and tell everyone that you're seeing these days. In 675 00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:35,200 Speaker 1: the Thing is produced by the fabulous team nor Saudi, Harshaahta, 676 00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:39,520 Speaker 1: Lisa Salinas, and our fellow Sarah Hershander, with editorial support 677 00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:42,520 Speaker 1: from Mike Sargent. Our audio engineering team is Stephanie LAbau, 678 00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:45,839 Speaker 1: Julia Caruso, and Gabrielle Abiaz. Our digital editor is res 679 00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:48,480 Speaker 1: Luna thanks to Rao we Bettis for recording me. The 680 00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:51,280 Speaker 1: music you heard is courtesy of nsy not captain ZZK Records. 681 00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:53,640 Speaker 1: We'll see you on our next episode. Thank you for listening, 682 00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:55,040 Speaker 1: dear listener, we love you. 683 00:37:55,080 --> 00:38:11,239 Speaker 5: Bye peace y'all. The opinions expressed by the guests and 684 00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:14,359 Speaker 5: contributors in this podcast are their own and do not 685 00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:18,200 Speaker 5: necessarily reflect the views of Futuro Media or its employees.