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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, welcome to Weird House Cinema. My name is Rob Lamb.

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Speaker 3: And I am Joe McCormick, and today we're doing Mad Love.

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Speaker 2: That's right. This is a film that I've been excited

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Speaker 2: to do on Weird House Cinema even before we really

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Speaker 2: formalize what this would be. Now, before we get into

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Speaker 2: the movie, you might be asking, well, what do this be?

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Speaker 2: What is Weird House Cinema? What you know? You may

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Speaker 2: think of Stuff to Blow your Mind, and of course

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Speaker 2: you think of a science and culture show. Well, Stuff

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Speaker 2: to Blow Your Mind remains a science and culture podcast

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Speaker 2: on Tuesdays and Thursdays. Friday night is our time to

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Speaker 2: focus on weird films. We may also discuss science and

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Speaker 2: culture on this show, but we put the weird horse

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Speaker 2: ahead of the cart on these days. Think of this

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Speaker 2: show as the haunted hands of a movie podcast grafted

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Speaker 2: onto the body of a science podcast.

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Speaker 3: I like it. So this is a movie that's come

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Speaker 3: up on Stuff to Blow your Mind proper before I

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Speaker 3: think maybe did it come up in talking about I

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Speaker 3: don't know, cutting off parts of the body and retaining

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Speaker 3: memories or I think it's come up a few times

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Speaker 3: because I had never seen the movie before, but I

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Speaker 3: had seen the trailer for Mad Love, and the trailer

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Speaker 3: is just wonderful because it begins with Peter Lourie sitting

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Speaker 3: on a couch next to a dog that's bigger than

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Speaker 3: he is and getting a phone call from a beautiful

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Speaker 3: actress who wants to tell him how great he is

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Speaker 3: in the movie that they start in together.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it's one of those wonderfully weird trailers. It's

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Speaker 2: just so different from anything you see today because it

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Speaker 2: begins with this real, supposedly real life conversation where she's like, oh,

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Speaker 2: Peter Laurie, I loved you, and em tell me about

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Speaker 2: this new film you have coming up, and then you

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Speaker 2: go to a more proper trailer.

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Speaker 3: That's right, And for such a mundane beginning of a trailer,

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Speaker 3: this is a fabulously strange movie, especially for what you're

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Speaker 3: Did it come out in nineteen thirty four? Is that right?

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Speaker 2: Thirty five?

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Speaker 3: I believe, Okay, thirty four to thirty five. Yeah, I

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Speaker 3: think you're right thirty five, And Wow, what a strange

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Speaker 3: film it's got. It's one of the strangest things I

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Speaker 3: think we should just sell right up front, is there

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Speaker 3: is a costume that Peter Lourie puts on in the

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Speaker 3: later half of the movie that like, is just hard

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Speaker 3: to believe it comes from the era that it does.

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Speaker 3: It seems very cybernetic.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it is is frightening to behold. But yeah, outside

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Speaker 2: of that, they're just a number of crazy weird elements

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Speaker 2: in this film, and it has at least two eccentric performances,

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Speaker 2: the first and foremost that of Peter Lorii, which we'll

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Speaker 2: get into in a minute. But you know what, I'll

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Speaker 2: go ahead and do the elevator pitch for this this movie,

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Speaker 2: so you know generally what we're talking about here before

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Speaker 2: we get into discussing the players. A gifted but deranged

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Speaker 2: surgeon named doctor Gogel becomes obsessed with horror actress Yvonne Orlock,

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Speaker 2: and when Yvonne's husband, the famous pianist Stephen Orlock, suffers

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Speaker 2: a brutal accident, Google transplants the hands of an executed

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Speaker 2: killer onto Orlock, and from here everything just spirals into

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Speaker 2: this kind of weird tale of psychological manipulation and delusion.

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Speaker 3: Let's hear just a snip of that trailer.

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Speaker 4: I boupest have conquered serns.

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Speaker 2: Why can't I conquer love?

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Speaker 4: He shall be shut up when it's a weere mad,

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Speaker 4: but nobody knows that, yes, each man kills the thing

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Speaker 4: he loves.

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Speaker 3: So one of the things that maybe we should start

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Speaker 3: with is the title of this movie, because it doesn't

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Speaker 3: really communicate what this film is really all about, which

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Speaker 3: is like severed hands and crazy psychological manipulation.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Mad Love is I think, kind of an imperfect title.

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Speaker 2: I far prefer the alternative title it sometimes it plays under,

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Speaker 2: and that is The Hands of Orlock, though that one

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Speaker 2: also feels somewhat, I don't know, insignificant, given the focus

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Speaker 2: of the film is not on Orlock as much as

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Speaker 2: it is on doctor Gogel Peter Lourie's character. I also think,

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Speaker 2: I mean for modern viewers, there's also this we also

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Speaker 2: have to take into to mind that you have this

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Speaker 2: nineteen ninety five film that's also called Mad Love that

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Speaker 2: many of us might have remembered. If you didn't see

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Speaker 2: it then then maybe even you just saw the trailers

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Speaker 2: and it starred Chris O'Donnell and Drew Barrymore, and none

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Speaker 2: of the plot elements were discussing here. It's a completely

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Speaker 2: unrelated film. I'm sure it's quite nice. It was directed

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Speaker 2: by Antonio Byrd, who of course directed Ravenous in nineteen

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Speaker 2: ninety nine and Priest in nineteen ninety four. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: nothing to do with Peter Lourie, The Hands of Warlock

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Speaker 2: or anything.

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Speaker 3: I believe. It was based on a short story called

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Speaker 3: the Hands of Orlock, right like Leman do Orlock?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, This was by French fantasy and horror writer

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Speaker 2: Maurice Renard who lived eighteen seventy five through nineteen thirty nine.

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Speaker 2: And I'm not I wasn't really familiar with the works

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Speaker 2: of Reynard, but he wrote multiple tales of mad scientists,

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Speaker 2: alien beings, futuristic technology. And this is just one of

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Speaker 2: four screen adaptations of the Hands of Orlock. And it

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Speaker 2: wasn't the first. The first was was the nineteen twenty

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Speaker 2: four Silent Austrian film starring Conrad Veitt, who many of

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Speaker 2: you may know from the Cabinet of Doctor Kligari or

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Speaker 2: The Man Who Laughs, which even if you haven't seen it,

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Speaker 2: you may have seen a still from it, because it's

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Speaker 2: often discussed as being an inspiration for The Joker and

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Speaker 2: the Batman franchise.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, really otherworldly disturbing face in Cabinet of Doctor Kligari

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Speaker 3: does he plays Sesar, the somnambulist.

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Speaker 2: I believe. So I have a hard time remembering the

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Speaker 2: characters in Caligari as much as just the you know,

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Speaker 2: the breathaking visuals. That's that's certainly when it comes to

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Speaker 2: silent films worth watching today. That's that's one of the

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Speaker 2: good ones. Anyway, Conrad played Orlock in that, but there

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Speaker 2: was no Gogel. Instead, there was a less essential character,

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Speaker 2: a surgeon named doctor Sarah. So it seems that by

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Speaker 2: the time they end up making Mad Love like they've

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Speaker 2: they've adapted it enough. They've made more of a character

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Speaker 2: out of the surgeon. The surgeon has become the center

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Speaker 2: of the piece, as opposed to just this contemplation of

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Speaker 2: futuristic hand transplantation and how you know, how that affects

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Speaker 2: our idea of body and personality integrity. Now, there were

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Speaker 2: a couple of other adaptations of the Hands of Warlock.

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Speaker 2: One was a nineteen sixty French British adaptation that actually

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Speaker 2: had Christopher Lee in it playing Nero the Magician, of

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Speaker 2: which I think was just an. I don't know why

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Speaker 2: you would, why you would mess around with the plot

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Speaker 2: that much, but there you go. And then in nineteen

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Speaker 2: sixty two there was an American adaptation titled Hands of

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Speaker 2: a Stranger. It started nobody in particular. I think the

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Speaker 2: main noteworthy thing about it is that director k newt

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Speaker 2: Arnold also directed Blood Sport and was assistant director on

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Speaker 2: a lot of major films such as Blade Runner and

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Speaker 2: The Godfather Part two.

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Speaker 3: Oh that's interesting, yeah, But.

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Speaker 2: The basic plot element here of what you could think

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Speaker 2: of is transplant panic and the idea of a transplanted

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Speaker 2: limb altering an individual's personality. You see that showing up

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Speaker 2: in a great many films and TV episodes. Just to

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Speaker 2: name a few, there was The Hand of Fear, an

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Speaker 2: episode of the Tom Baker era Doctor Who series. There

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Speaker 2: was nineteen ninety one's Body Parts starring Jeff fay Linsey Yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: Lindsey Duncan and Brad Doriff. And then you'll find various

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Speaker 2: horror anthology episodes. I think that they either have this

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Speaker 2: particular plot of oh now I have the hands of

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Speaker 2: a killer or in the hands of a stranger on

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Speaker 2: my body, as well as a related but different form

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Speaker 2: of dismemberment. Panic films about disembodied crawling hands. I'd love

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Speaker 2: to come back to crawling hand films in the future.

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Speaker 3: Oh maybe a future October episode. Now, this reminds me

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Speaker 3: of something we talked about not too long ago on

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Speaker 3: Stuff to Blow your mind when we did the episode

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Speaker 3: I Want a New Blood. That was all about blood

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Speaker 3: transfusions and how there were experiments in the seventeenth century,

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Speaker 3: as far back as the seventeenth century in France to

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Speaker 3: transfuse the blood of animals into humans for various reasons,

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Speaker 3: some of which were not necessarily all that grounded in

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Speaker 3: good science. But for example, you might perform a phlebotomy

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Speaker 3: because of the gallinic humoral theory of the day, you'd

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Speaker 3: bleed a patient to reduce a fever or to reduce

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Speaker 3: mania or something thing. And then there were some surgeons

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Speaker 3: at the time who said, you know what we should

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Speaker 3: do is take out the bad blood and then replace

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Speaker 3: it with the blood of an animal that has the

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Speaker 3: sort of personality characteristics that we want to put into

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Speaker 3: the person. So if somebody is overly excited, they're suffering

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Speaker 3: from a mania, you would put lamb's blood into their

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Speaker 3: body because the gentleness and coolness of the lamb would

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Speaker 3: come through in the blood. And this also but this

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Speaker 3: was also countered by people who opposed blood transfusions on

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Speaker 3: the idea that you could create some kind of hybrid

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Speaker 3: creature that like, negative qualities of the original animal would

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Speaker 3: come through in the new person and they wouldn't really

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Speaker 3: be fully human anymore. So there's long been this idea

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Speaker 3: that transfusing blood from one creature to another, or transplanting

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Speaker 3: a body part from one creature to another or one

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Speaker 3: person to another, brings with it some kind of personality characteristic.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, this concern over the entire of the body, uh,

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Speaker 2: when we get into the transplantation of tissues and fluids

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Speaker 2: and organs and limbs. And I think one of course

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Speaker 2: thing to note is that while a lot of the

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Speaker 2: concerns over the over blood have sort of passed away

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Speaker 2: with the with with the widespread use of blood transfusions.

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Speaker 2: You know, you will find some religious objections to blood

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Speaker 2: transfusions here and there, but for the most part, it

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Speaker 2: has become a part of our our everyday life. You know,

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Speaker 2: like you even if you're not giving blood every day,

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Speaker 2: you may hear about blood drives, et cetera. It's just

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Speaker 2: part of the medical reality of the modern world. Hand transplants,

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Speaker 2: as we'll discuss a little later, are far far rarer. Uh.

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Speaker 2: They are a far more complicated procedure and one that

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Speaker 2: is not not every day and uh, and also one

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Speaker 2: that is you know, it seems like our ability to

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Speaker 2: pull it off is still evolving. So you definitely see

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Speaker 2: that that that same kind of energy in these transplantation

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Speaker 2: panic films and other bits of fiction that this sort

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Speaker 2: of deal with this idea, what if the hands of

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Speaker 2: another became my hands, would they really be my hands?

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Speaker 2: And that, of course is one of the key things

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Speaker 2: going on in this film.

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Speaker 3: I like the idea, though, of these science fiction films

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Speaker 3: that take a very scientifically or at least ostensibly scientifically

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Speaker 3: grounded premise. This is about medical science performing experiments at

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Speaker 3: the edge of what was known to medicine at the day,

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Speaker 3: but it still basically believes in magic. That still basically

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Speaker 3: believes that like hands contain some magical essence of the

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Speaker 3: brain of the person they came from. And it seems

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Speaker 3: to me, you know, modern science fiction doesn't usually operate

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Speaker 3: on quite that level of belief in the supernatural.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there is. There's certainly a dash of the supernatural

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Speaker 2: in this one. There is a lot of science fiction,

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Speaker 2: you know, it is essentially like science fiction is always

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Speaker 2: about our hopes and our anxieties concerning where technology is

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Speaker 2: taking us. And you know, at the time it was

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Speaker 2: looking towards the future in which we would be able

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Speaker 2: to carry out hand transplants or certainly double hand transplants.

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Speaker 2: We eventually got to that point, but at the time

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Speaker 2: it was just pure speculation. It was just we may

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Speaker 2: get to this point, and then when we get there,

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Speaker 2: what will it mean? What if it goes wrong? And

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Speaker 2: then the way it goes wrong is, uh, you know,

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Speaker 2: it goes a bit more in the speculative and magical

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Speaker 2: direction by going beyond like what if it doesn't work,

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Speaker 2: but also getting into that area of what if it

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Speaker 2: isn't me anymore.

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Speaker 3: Now, if you have seen any image from this film,

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Speaker 3: and I think there's a decent chance you have, it

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Speaker 3: is probably the image of Peter Lori in his Rollo costume.

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Speaker 3: And we'll explain how that fits into the plot a

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Speaker 3: little bit more in more detail later, but in this costume,

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Speaker 3: it's Peter loriie wearing this bizarre metal and leather neck

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Speaker 3: brace that goes over his shoulders and goes up to

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Speaker 3: his chin and is laced up with like a shoe,

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Speaker 3: and then with metal hands and dark sunglasses are almost

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Speaker 3: kind of welding goggles, and a big black hat.

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Speaker 2: Yes, it is a really nightmarish image to behold. I

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Speaker 2: feel like it was definitely an influence on the Gestapo

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Speaker 2: agent taught in Raiders of Lost Arc played by Ron Lacy.

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Speaker 2: And Ron Lacey gives a very laure Esque performance in that,

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Speaker 2: especially when you take into a when you're take into

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Speaker 2: account the code and the hat as well, and also

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Speaker 2: early character concepts for that character, and Raiders apparently gave

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Speaker 2: him a cybernetic metal arm. I feel like there's a

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Speaker 2: there's some strong comparisons to be made there, and I

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Speaker 2: think I have read that Spielberg went with Lacey because

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Speaker 2: he reminded him of Peter Lourie.

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Speaker 3: Oh that's interesting. Well, this is getting us into the

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Speaker 3: people who were involved in this movie, So maybe we

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Speaker 3: should start with looking at the director, Carl Freund, who

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Speaker 3: was a cinematographer before he was a director proper. And

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Speaker 3: I recognized the same immediately when it came up in

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Speaker 3: the opening credits, and I realized where I recognized it

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Speaker 3: from was from the movies of Fritz Long.

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Speaker 2: That's right. He was a cinematographer on Metropolis as well

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Speaker 2: as the nineteen not of Fritz Long film, but the

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Speaker 2: nineteen thirty one Dracula film. Oh, there was another film

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Speaker 2: that he was a cinematographer on. He was a cinematographer

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Speaker 2: on I think one hundred and sixty three films according

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Speaker 2: to IMDb, and was active through the nineteen sixties.

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Speaker 3: He worked on some other universal horror films I think,

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Speaker 3: didn't he was he involved with The Mummy?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he directed nineteen thirty two's The Mummy, starring Boris

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Speaker 2: Karloff as Zemmotep Oh. Okay, but the main attraction here,

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Speaker 2: really the centerpiece, is Peter Laurie as Doctor Gogel. This

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Speaker 2: Laurie is the ultimate highlight in this film, as the

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Speaker 2: picture I think gives him a chance to shine just

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Speaker 2: in multiple ways because his go go It's interesting. He's

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Speaker 2: he's sometimes quite dapper and sly, you know, walking around smoking,

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Speaker 2: you know, gazing kind of slyly at everything around him.

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Speaker 2: Other times he's this tragic, earnest, even manic character and

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Speaker 2: then there's this scene which again we'll get into more

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Speaker 2: of the details on in a bit, where he takes

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Speaker 2: on the guise of this reassembled Rollo character, and he

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Speaker 2: gives a really otherworldly performance in this this kind of

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Speaker 2: science fiction within a science fiction, and then ultimately the

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Speaker 2: whole plot just Criscindo's into madness and he plays an

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Speaker 2: increasingly mad character. So Laurie, I feel like, really gets

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Speaker 2: to just trot out all the tools in this particular movie.

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Speaker 3: I think that when Mad Love was first released, it

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Speaker 3: was sort of mostly or at least partially critically panned.

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Speaker 3: I think people look at it, yeah, yeah, okay, this

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Speaker 3: is childish trash. But even in those reviews, there was

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Speaker 3: a lot of praise for Lori because Peter Laurie is obviously,

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Speaker 3: you know, one of the great actors, one of the

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Speaker 3: great film actors of all time.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. He was a Hungarian American actor of Jewish descent,

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Speaker 2: made a whole career basically out of playing weird characters,

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Speaker 2: just weirdos. You know. He had he had kind of

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Speaker 2: a you know, a kind of a weird asymmetrical look,

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Speaker 2: and he had this this wonderful accent and this kind

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Speaker 2: of you know, raspy voice. The voice I don't even

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Speaker 2: have to do an impression, because you're hearing it now.

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Speaker 2: You may already be speaking it out loud just to

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Speaker 2: hear yourself use it. I mean, it's it's a universally

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Speaker 2: known voice. You know, he was, he was a legend

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Speaker 2: of cinema. Now, this was his first American film, on

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Speaker 2: the heels of nineteen thirty one's much acclaimed im by

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Speaker 2: Fritz Lung, and then he played in that, he played

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Speaker 2: an accused child murderer. And he would go on to

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Speaker 2: have memorable roles and The Maltese Falcon and forty one,

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Speaker 2: of course, Casablanca and forty two, along with just a

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Speaker 2: long list of great, memorable and occasionally forgettable or embarrassing films.

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Speaker 2: But he worked with such directors as John Houston, Alfred Hitchcock,

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Speaker 2: Frank Capra. You know, he'd pretty much did it all.

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Speaker 3: I mean, Laurie, I think is a great early example

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Speaker 3: of someone who would be well known in their own

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Speaker 3: right as a powerhouse film star without being a dashing lead,

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Speaker 3: without being like, you know, an attractive actor or actress

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Speaker 3: who would play the lead role in films, you know,

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Speaker 3: to be the hero Laurie was often a villain or

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Speaker 3: a strange character actor, and I don't know how common

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Speaker 3: it was at the time for actors like that to

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Speaker 3: be a household name that was you know, known and revered.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Like you see footage of him, such as in

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Speaker 2: that trailer, you know, like how many weird actors and

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Speaker 2: character actors today? Can you even imagine such a setup?

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Speaker 2: You know, where you're coming at everyone first with the

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Speaker 2: celebrity and the natural charisma of the actor, and then

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Speaker 2: you hit the trailer. And I think it speaks to

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Speaker 2: you know, one of the things about him, It is

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Speaker 2: like he was charismatic. He was, you know, kind of

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Speaker 2: dashing in his own slightly anti Hollywood way, And like

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Speaker 2: I say, he also just became cemented in popular culture.

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Speaker 2: I was looking around for, you know, books about him,

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Speaker 2: and I ran across The Animated Peter Lourie by Matthew Hahn.

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Speaker 2: This is a book that points out apparently seven hundred

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Speaker 2: instances of animated cartoons using Laurie's face or voice or both.

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Speaker 2: So this is everything from old timey cartoons where it's like, oh,

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Speaker 2: suddenly a bunch of dead celebrities have shown up, and

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Speaker 2: here's one of them, it's it's Peter Lourie. Two just

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Speaker 2: characters like on Scooby Doo or whatever that may not

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Speaker 2: be Peter Lourie but have his voice and or his appearance.

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Speaker 2: And you see that still today. Like the Peter Lourie

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Speaker 2: impersonation is kind of like a standard impersonation one might

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Speaker 2: turn to. You see it, for instance, in the Star

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Speaker 2: Wars Clone Wars animated series, there's a character that shows up,

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Speaker 2: a bounty hunter named Cad Baine, and it has kind

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Speaker 2: of like a mechanically augmented voice, but the root of

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Speaker 2: it is a Peter Lourie impersonation, and you can pinpoint it.

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Speaker 3: Oh that's interesting. I like how that connects Star Wars

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Speaker 3: to the classic old serials.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean clearly, Like this is a guy that

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Speaker 2: people like Spielberg and Lucas, you know, they grew up

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Speaker 2: watching these films like he was. He was one of

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Speaker 2: the maybe not the top tier deities, but one of

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Speaker 2: the supporting deities in the pantheon of film.

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Speaker 3: Now there's another actor in the movie who I think

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Speaker 3: is maybe weirder than people realized when they cast him.

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Speaker 3: I don't know. He's supposed to be the hero of

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Speaker 3: the film. But this is Colin Clive playing Stephen Orlock,

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Speaker 3: who appeared in the Frankenstein movies. He was Doctor Frankenstein

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Speaker 3: in James Wale's Frankenstein and Bride of Frankenstein. And he

349
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Speaker 3: has such a such a rat like nervous energy in

350
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Speaker 3: this film. It's similar actually to what you see in

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Speaker 3: the Frankenstein movies.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean in both films he plays an

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Speaker 2: accomplished and seemingly confident man who is then riddled by

354
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Speaker 2: madness and trauma. You know, has gone through a traumatic

355
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Speaker 2: experience and is continually haunted by what has occurred. And yeah,

356
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Speaker 2: he seems to just and I have to admit I've

357
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Speaker 2: only seen Colin Clive in this movie, Mad Love and

358
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Speaker 2: the two Frankenstein films of note, but in all three

359
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Speaker 2: of those, like he just has this wonderful raw energy

360
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Speaker 2: to him, and there is this sense of like tragedy too.

361
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Speaker 2: I don't know how much of the tragedy is just

362
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Speaker 2: knowing that, for instance, he would die in nineteen thirty seven,

363
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Speaker 2: just two years later at the age of thirty seven,

364
00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:58,080
Speaker 2: and that he had, you know, a number of demons

365
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Speaker 2: in his life.

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Speaker 3: I believe he.

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Speaker 2: He suffered from alcoholism. But you know, whatever, whatever traumas

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Speaker 2: he had in his life, you know, he seems able

369
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Speaker 2: to have translated that into these performances. And so, yeah,

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Speaker 2: he's perfect for this role. Is this, you know, handsome

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Speaker 2: and accomplished individual who is then put through this this

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Speaker 2: traumatic situation and then then pushed towards delusion by the

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Speaker 2: villainist doctor Gogel.

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Speaker 3: He has this energy as if he's undergoing fission. You

375
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Speaker 3: think that you're going to walk into a room and

376
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Speaker 3: catch him just chewing on a corner of the wall.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

378
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Speaker 3: Now, there's another major actress in this film, Francis Drake,

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Speaker 3: who plays Stephen Orlac's wife, Yvonne Orlac, the heroine of

380
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Speaker 3: the film, who plays an actress within the movie. But

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Speaker 3: one thing before we get into details about Francis Drake

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Speaker 3: that I thought was interesting is I read that originally

383
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Speaker 3: this role of Yvonne Orlac was cast with another actress,

384
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Speaker 3: an actress named Virginia Bruce. And just clicking around on

385
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Speaker 3: the internet, I discovered that Virginia Bruce played Jane Eyre

386
00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:14,879
Speaker 3: in a nineteen thirty four American adaptation of the Bronte novel,

387
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Speaker 3: and in this movie, Colin Clive, the guy with the

388
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Speaker 3: fision rat nervous energy plays mister Rochester. I just I

389
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Speaker 3: don't know. I would have to see that to believe it,

390
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Speaker 3: because mister Rochester is supposed to be this, you know, dark,

391
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Speaker 3: smooth byronic hunk. But Colin Clive's teeth are almost audibly

392
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Speaker 3: rattling when you watch him. It's hard to imagine him

393
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Speaker 3: really fitting with that role.

394
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Speaker 2: Huh. Yeah, Now I'm gonna have to watch that or

395
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Speaker 2: watch some clips from it, just to see, you know,

396
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Speaker 2: what kind of energy he has in that, because again

397
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Speaker 2: I've only seen this level of energy out of Colin Clive. Now,

398
00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:53,879
Speaker 2: Francis Drake is quite good in this. It's easy to

399
00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:56,440
Speaker 2: lose sight of her because she is kind of sandwiched

400
00:22:56,480 --> 00:23:02,160
Speaker 2: between these very manic performance but she was a star

401
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Speaker 2: of the day. She was only active from nineteen thirty

402
00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:08,280
Speaker 2: three to nineteen forty two, but she lived a long life,

403
00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:10,960
Speaker 2: lived to see the twenty first century. What happened is

404
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:15,320
Speaker 2: she married into the English aristocracy and her first husband,

405
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Speaker 2: Lieutenant Cecil John Author Howard, urged her to leave show business,

406
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Speaker 2: so she did. But she's she's really good in this.

407
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Speaker 2: I mean there it's one of these roles that you

408
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Speaker 2: encounter for women in films, particularly of this era, where

409
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Speaker 2: you feel like it's definitely suffering from the limitations of

410
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Speaker 2: female roles at the time. You know, like, you know

411
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Speaker 2: she's going to faint when the villain comes comes at her.

412
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Speaker 2: You know it's going she's going to be saved by

413
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Speaker 2: the male hero of the piece, that sort of thing.

414
00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:51,399
Speaker 2: But that being said, she's really good in it. You know,

415
00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:54,560
Speaker 2: she's able to. I mean, it's kind of interesting. She

416
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Speaker 2: doesn't come off as a scream queen. I'm not sure

417
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Speaker 2: if that was truly a thing yet, but that at

418
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Speaker 2: the same time she kind of plays a scream queen

419
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Speaker 2: and her character is a scream queen in the context

420
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Speaker 2: of the film.

421
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Speaker 3: Yeah, her character ivon Orlock is playing a scream queen

422
00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:13,240
Speaker 3: of the Grand Genial Theater in Paris. It's not named

423
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Speaker 3: as the Grand Genial Theater but the Grand gien yall

424
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:22,200
Speaker 3: historically is this tradition of extremely gory, morbid stage productions

425
00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:25,320
Speaker 3: that would be done in Paris, and in this movie,

426
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Speaker 3: it's called the Theatre des horus. I can't I don't

427
00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:32,800
Speaker 3: have French pronunciation, sorry, the Theater of Horrors and it's

428
00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:35,440
Speaker 3: got all these creeps sitting in the audience every night

429
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Speaker 3: just watching her get tortured on the rack and doing

430
00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:42,639
Speaker 3: doing a marvelous job screaming and yeah. And so she

431
00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:45,760
Speaker 3: clearly has her fans. I think she's sort of supposed

432
00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:47,880
Speaker 3: to be the Linea Quigley of her day.

433
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:52,080
Speaker 2: Yeah. And of course those creepy fans include one super

434
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:56,119
Speaker 2: creepy fan, doctor Gogel, So he is kind of like

435
00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:58,760
Speaker 2: the the you know, the the ultimate creepy fan in

436
00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:01,280
Speaker 2: this a very successful creepy fan, but a creepy fan.

437
00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:05,280
Speaker 3: Nonetheless, I think it's interesting that you mentioned that Francis

438
00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:09,760
Speaker 3: Drake got out of acting because she married a successful

439
00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:12,800
Speaker 3: husband who did not want her to pursue further pursue

440
00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:15,280
Speaker 3: her career, because that is the role she plays in

441
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:18,879
Speaker 3: this movie. Vonn Orlack is retiring from acting at the

442
00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:22,800
Speaker 3: Theater of Horrors because she's marrying a successful husband and

443
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:23,880
Speaker 3: they're moving to England.

444
00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:28,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, that is interesting. I having not read the Hands

445
00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:32,040
Speaker 2: of Orlocker seen the previous adaptation, I don't know if

446
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:34,120
Speaker 2: that was part of the original or Like a lot

447
00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:38,600
Speaker 2: of things in Mad Love, you know, it's been embellished

448
00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:42,240
Speaker 2: and added upon now. Believe it or not, there is

449
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:45,879
Speaker 2: another screen legend in this film, and that is Key Luke.

450
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:48,439
Speaker 2: You might know him best as the man who sells

451
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:52,679
Speaker 2: Gizmo to that kid in nineteen eighty four's Grimlins.

452
00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:54,720
Speaker 3: Well, I think he sells him to the kid's dad,

453
00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:55,520
Speaker 3: right the kids.

454
00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:57,879
Speaker 2: Oh look, that's true. The dad gets gizmo as a

455
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:00,320
Speaker 2: gift to give the kid or does he actually sell

456
00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:02,760
Speaker 2: him or does he kind of the dad steal him,

457
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:04,720
Speaker 2: like after he won't sell him. I forget how that

458
00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:05,600
Speaker 2: goes down exactly.

459
00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:08,639
Speaker 3: I don't recall exactly. I mean he Key Luke is

460
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:14,280
Speaker 3: the proprietor of the Shop of a Cursed Items and yeah, yeah,

461
00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:16,760
Speaker 3: and he's good in this film, though it's a small role.

462
00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:21,400
Speaker 3: He plays doctor Gogol's colleague. Basically, he's the other surgeon

463
00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:23,199
Speaker 3: that works at doctor Gogols clinic.

464
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:26,520
Speaker 2: Yeah. What I like about his role in Mad Love

465
00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:30,320
Speaker 2: is that he's simply playing another doctor, doctor Wong in

466
00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:34,360
Speaker 2: a straightforward part, which I mean it's kind of complicated

467
00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:36,879
Speaker 2: to think about because on one hand, you had a

468
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:40,000
Speaker 2: lot of stereotypical Asian characters in films at the time,

469
00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:43,080
Speaker 2: and in many cases those characters were played by non

470
00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:46,919
Speaker 2: Asian actors. Laurie himself would go on to play a

471
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:51,080
Speaker 2: stereotypical Asian character, mister Moto, in several pictures. And this

472
00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:53,440
Speaker 2: is just sadly the practice in Hollywood at the time.

473
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:57,280
Speaker 2: You see, you would see and even the decades to follow,

474
00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:01,479
Speaker 2: you'd see actors like Boris Karloff, Christopher Lee, Harrison, Katherine Hepburn,

475
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:05,000
Speaker 2: Mickey Rooney, Alex Guinness, just to name a few names.

476
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:10,160
Speaker 2: You know. So it feels perversely progressive to have Luke

477
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:13,760
Speaker 2: in this role playing just a surgeon. Yet at the

478
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:16,840
Speaker 2: same time I read that Luke himself pointed out that

479
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:20,159
Speaker 2: he was often cast in quote good boy scout roles

480
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:25,399
Speaker 2: like doctors and lawyers, which in this also entails racial stereotyping.

481
00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:28,600
Speaker 2: You know, so we have to keep both extremes in

482
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:31,080
Speaker 2: mind when looking at films like this, as well as

483
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 2: with films today. Now that being said, Key Luke, though

484
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:37,119
Speaker 2: interesting character, very long career in Hollywood. I believe he

485
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:43,360
Speaker 2: started out in the advertising realm of Hollywood, like promotional

486
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:46,720
Speaker 2: posters in all, and just became a staple of Hollywood.

487
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:57,600
Speaker 3: Oh that's interesting, I never heard that. Yeah, Okay, well,

488
00:27:57,600 --> 00:27:59,280
Speaker 3: I guess maybe we should talk through the plot in

489
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:01,919
Speaker 3: a little bit more detail. Now we've already discussed the

490
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:05,359
Speaker 3: basic setup that Ivonne Orlac, played by Francis Drake, is

491
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:08,399
Speaker 3: this grand gain y'all scream queen that she she goes

492
00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:11,600
Speaker 3: on stage at the Theater of Horrors every night in Paris.

493
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:15,560
Speaker 3: They grotesquely torture her for whatever play they're putting on.

494
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:17,400
Speaker 3: It looks like the play they're putting on is about

495
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:20,880
Speaker 3: a a count or some you know, wicked aristocrat who

496
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 3: finds out that his wife is two timing him and

497
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:25,320
Speaker 3: then puts her on the rack. And so I put

498
00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:27,760
Speaker 3: her on this big wheel and starts stretching her arms

499
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:30,520
Speaker 3: and she screams. And then it shows these people in

500
00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:32,479
Speaker 3: the audience where there looks like there are a lot

501
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:35,520
Speaker 3: of couples in the audience, and the women are like

502
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:37,719
Speaker 3: not happy to be there, and the men are like,

503
00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:43,719
Speaker 3: oh wow, this is great. But she seems to be

504
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:46,680
Speaker 3: she seems to enjoy her job acting in this theater.

505
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:51,240
Speaker 3: And she she talks about her husband, Stephen Orlac. I

506
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:54,520
Speaker 3: think it's communicated that they are recently married. Stephen Orlac

507
00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 3: again is played by Colin Clive and he is a

508
00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:59,960
Speaker 3: genius pianist. So like when she's preparing to go out

509
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 3: on stage, in her dressing room, she's listening to a

510
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:06,960
Speaker 3: performance that he's doing live on the radio. And I

511
00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:09,720
Speaker 3: think we're supposed to understand that they're very happily married.

512
00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:13,400
Speaker 3: They adore one another. And the film opens on the

513
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:16,920
Speaker 3: night of Yvonne's final performance at the Theater of Horrors

514
00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:19,360
Speaker 3: before she's going to move off to England with Stephen.

515
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:24,280
Speaker 3: But as you mentioned, Yvonne has a creepy secret admirer

516
00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:27,200
Speaker 3: among the audience. Doctor Gogol, it is said, is there

517
00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:30,880
Speaker 3: every single night in his theater box. He's basically keeping

518
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:35,120
Speaker 3: the theater running, constantly buying this expensive box seat to

519
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:35,920
Speaker 3: watch her from.

520
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:40,120
Speaker 2: Because doctor Gogel, I'm not sure if we firmly established this,

521
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:43,520
Speaker 2: but he is a superstar surgeon of the day. Like

522
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:48,239
Speaker 2: he is. He is a wealthy, super talented surgeon who

523
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:52,000
Speaker 2: is clearly I don't know if he's really performed anything,

524
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:56,120
Speaker 2: you know, miracle level yet at this point you know,

525
00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:58,959
Speaker 2: in the timeline, but like he's out there saving lives,

526
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:00,840
Speaker 2: Like there's a scene where he is saved a child's

527
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:04,440
Speaker 2: life through his brilliant surgical intervention.

528
00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:08,720
Speaker 3: Yes, it's communicated that he has a very powerful mind

529
00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:12,440
Speaker 3: and very gifted hands, coming back to a theme throughout

530
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:15,800
Speaker 3: the movie, and so he saves children's lives. They talk

531
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:19,120
Speaker 3: about how he saves soldiers who have been injured in

532
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 3: the war. They don't talk about what war. This is

533
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:24,760
Speaker 3: the nineteen thirties in Paris, so I guess that would

534
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:27,520
Speaker 3: refer to World War One. I'm not sure. But then

535
00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:30,720
Speaker 3: doctor Gogol finds out that this is Yvonne's last night,

536
00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:33,760
Speaker 3: and he does not like this. He's horrified, in fact,

537
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:36,160
Speaker 3: because he is obsessed with her. He's there every night

538
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:38,120
Speaker 3: to see her. Like she says, I'm leaving and then

539
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:40,000
Speaker 3: he's like, oh, what theater are you going to? And

540
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:42,520
Speaker 3: she's like, well, actually I'm just moving to England. And

541
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:46,200
Speaker 3: he doesn't like this at all. He's distraught. But fortunately

542
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:50,120
Speaker 3: for doctor Gogol, the theater happens to be removing a

543
00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:53,760
Speaker 3: wax figure of Yvonne. They have it like standing out

544
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:57,560
Speaker 3: in the lobby, and it looks so much like her

545
00:30:57,600 --> 00:30:59,680
Speaker 3: that it is in fact played by her. It's just

546
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:03,320
Speaker 3: it's just Francis Drake's standing there, not moving. But they're

547
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:05,480
Speaker 3: taking the wax figure out of the theater so it

548
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 3: can be melted down for scrap wax, and then Gogl

549
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:13,600
Speaker 3: intercepts this delivery, buys the wax figure of her, and

550
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:15,800
Speaker 3: he has it delivered to his apartment. The whole time

551
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 3: he's monologuing about the myth of Pygmalion and Galatea.

552
00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:22,240
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it's a great scene because like the guy

553
00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:24,880
Speaker 2: that you know clearly thinks it's creepy, and Google Google

554
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:27,080
Speaker 2: just you know, offers them enough money to buy it.

555
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:31,080
Speaker 2: It's kind of like a a pre eBay creepy eBay

556
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:32,360
Speaker 2: trans transaction.

557
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:32,680
Speaker 4: You know.

558
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 3: Yes, that's very but I don't quite understand how it's

559
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:40,600
Speaker 3: supposed to be like the myth of Pygmalion or of Galatea,

560
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:43,880
Speaker 3: because he doesn't make the wax sculpture. He just buys it.

561
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:46,240
Speaker 3: But he keeps streaming that it's going to come to

562
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:47,440
Speaker 3: life and love.

563
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:52,400
Speaker 2: Him, yeah, ranting about the Galatea. Uh yeah, I love

564
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:54,600
Speaker 2: it and I love that that it's just Francis Drake

565
00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:58,680
Speaker 2: playing the wax duplicate and without any I don't think

566
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:01,120
Speaker 2: they did anything to her, just have her stand there

567
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:04,920
Speaker 2: in costume, which which is nice because it plays in

568
00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:07,000
Speaker 2: with what is to come later in the in the plot.

569
00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:10,840
Speaker 3: Yeah. So, next thing is we meet the pianist stephn

570
00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:14,400
Speaker 3: Orlac on a train and there's a scene that comes

571
00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:17,920
Speaker 3: here that I love so much. The sausage slash dog

572
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:21,200
Speaker 3: scene is just amazing. So Orlac is riding in a

573
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:24,240
Speaker 3: train car. Across from him, there's a passenger who's just

574
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:27,880
Speaker 3: eating a giant sausage. I'm pretty sure it's a sausage.

575
00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:30,040
Speaker 3: I don't know what else it could be. It's not

576
00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 3: a baguette because it shows him holding a baguette next

577
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:35,840
Speaker 3: to it, So I think it's just a huge sausage

578
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:37,240
Speaker 3: the size of a baguette.

579
00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:39,960
Speaker 2: And is the is it that I don't remember this

580
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 2: part of the movie as much? Is does the guy

581
00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:46,040
Speaker 2: with the bag at have like a snappy American accent?

582
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:48,840
Speaker 3: No? No, no, no, he's supposed to be French, I believe.

583
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:51,520
Speaker 2: Okay, all right, so the snappy American characters are yet

584
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:51,760
Speaker 2: to come.

585
00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:54,000
Speaker 3: Okay, there yet to come. Yes, yes, no, The guy

586
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:56,960
Speaker 3: eating the huge sausage I think is French. And next

587
00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:58,560
Speaker 3: to him on the bench and the train car is

588
00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:02,400
Speaker 3: a picnic basket. And then suddenly a little puppy pops

589
00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:04,960
Speaker 3: up out of the picnic basket pops up its head,

590
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:08,440
Speaker 3: and the man explains to calin Clive. He's like, well,

591
00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:11,280
Speaker 3: it costs twenty francs extra if you want to bring

592
00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:13,440
Speaker 3: a dog on the train. So I'm sneaking the dog

593
00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 3: on in my picnic basket and don't let the guards

594
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 3: find out. And then colin Clive wonderfully says, if my

595
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:23,120
Speaker 3: silence is worth twenty francs, buy it. I'm hungry. So

596
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:26,000
Speaker 3: the guy cuts off a piece of his monster sausage

597
00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 3: and gives it to Orlac, and then Orlac immediately gives

598
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:33,520
Speaker 3: the sausage to the basket dog, and then the sausage

599
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:37,120
Speaker 3: man after that abandons all pretensive utensil use. He like

600
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:39,520
Speaker 3: puts down his knife and he just gnaws it. He

601
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 3: just sticks the thing in his mouth and bites it

602
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 3: like an apple.

603
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:49,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I never sausage a scene. It's one of several

604
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:54,840
Speaker 2: humorous scenes in this film that at once feel completely

605
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:58,280
Speaker 2: out of place, but also you know, I wouldn't I

606
00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 2: wouldn't want this film without him there. They're they're interesting,

607
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:03,920
Speaker 2: they're they're funny. I don't know they're funny in the

608
00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:05,880
Speaker 2: way they would have been received at the time, but

609
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:09,200
Speaker 2: there is there's something kind of slapsticky and amusing about them.

610
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:11,959
Speaker 3: I think it's supposed to be funny. In any case,

611
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:14,319
Speaker 3: whatever it was supposed to be, Sausage Man is my hero.

612
00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:18,120
Speaker 3: I want action figures of Sausage Man. I want I

613
00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:20,560
Speaker 3: want our fans to make us Sausage Man t shirts.

614
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:24,640
Speaker 2: That what it would have been a totally different film.

615
00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:29,040
Speaker 2: By the way, had Sausage Man's hands end up transplanted

616
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:30,280
Speaker 2: onto Steven Orlock.

617
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:33,080
Speaker 3: My god, yes, like I can't play the piano anymore.

618
00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:39,879
Speaker 3: I can only grab huge sausages. But anyway, that that

619
00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:42,520
Speaker 3: preludes the next thing we have to talk about, which

620
00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:44,640
Speaker 3: is that a prisoner is brought on board the train

621
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:48,760
Speaker 3: and it is explained that this is Rollow, the knife thrower,

622
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:52,800
Speaker 3: who is skilled at throwing knives. I guess that's a skill.

623
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:56,440
Speaker 3: I'd never thought about that much before. But what do

624
00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:58,440
Speaker 3: they say he did. I think it's that he murdered

625
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:00,879
Speaker 3: his own father by throwing knife at him.

626
00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:05,879
Speaker 2: Yep, yep, which will become important later on. So yeah,

627
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:08,640
Speaker 2: he's a he's a convicted murderer, and he's he's on

628
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:09,719
Speaker 2: the way to the guillotine.

629
00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 3: His mannerisms are very soft and friendly and American. They

630
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:16,400
Speaker 3: specify he is American, He's not French. He just happens

631
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:19,320
Speaker 3: to be in France going to the guillotine, and he's

632
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:22,080
Speaker 3: he comes up off almost kind of like Buddy Hackett.

633
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:26,040
Speaker 2: Yes, he reminds me a lot of and I'm sorry,

634
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:27,760
Speaker 2: I forget the actor's name of the actor who plays

635
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:30,239
Speaker 2: baby Face Nelson. You know, no brother, where art thou?

636
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:33,040
Speaker 2: You know that kind of old time he likely he

637
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:36,680
Speaker 2: comes off as a charismatic, likable character, not a a

638
00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:42,160
Speaker 2: knife wielding murderer. And on one hand, I found myself thinking, well,

639
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:45,799
Speaker 2: what if they had actually made Rollo terrifying here? Would

640
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:49,400
Speaker 2: that have been more beneficial later on? But maybe I'm not.

641
00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:52,640
Speaker 2: The thing is, I'm not sure it would because I

642
00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:59,000
Speaker 2: don't know. The The impersonation of a re animated Rollo

643
00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:03,279
Speaker 2: that comes later is very much, you know, a go

644
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:07,160
Speaker 2: Gole creation, So I don't know. I guess ultimately I'm

645
00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:09,920
Speaker 2: okay with this particular character being a little hammy and

646
00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:11,840
Speaker 2: a little likable despite being a murder.

647
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 3: Well, I think it kind of works because Gogol, if

648
00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:18,200
Speaker 3: I recall correctly, has never meets Rollo, while he's alive,

649
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:22,279
Speaker 3: he only gets access to his dead body once it's guillotined. Yeah,

650
00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:25,920
Speaker 3: but we should say before Rollo gets guillotined through happenstance

651
00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:29,000
Speaker 3: orchestrated by sausage Man by the way, because sausage Man

652
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:33,600
Speaker 3: wants Rollo's autograph. He apparently collects the autographs of famous people,

653
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:38,320
Speaker 3: including father murderers. He goes next, he goes next to

654
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:43,080
Speaker 3: the other train car using Steven Orlac's pin to try

655
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:45,359
Speaker 3: to get an autograph, Orlac has to go get his pin,

656
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:49,400
Speaker 3: and so by these means he meets Rollo. But anyway,

657
00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:53,040
Speaker 3: Rollo gets off the train to get executed. Laurie goes

658
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:56,080
Speaker 3: to the guillotining because apparently he always does. But after

659
00:36:56,160 --> 00:37:00,279
Speaker 3: Rollo gets off the train, the train tragically derails and

660
00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:05,480
Speaker 3: Stephen survives the crash, but his hands are mangled and destroyed,

661
00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:09,319
Speaker 3: and of course he's a pianist by trade, so he

662
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:13,160
Speaker 3: needs his hands to play, and Yvonne wants to so

663
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:16,320
Speaker 3: she's talking to the surgeon and in the hospital after

664
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:18,440
Speaker 3: the accident, saying can't you save his hands? And the

665
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:21,640
Speaker 3: Surgeon's like, I'm sorry, ma'am, we'll have to amputate. So

666
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:25,440
Speaker 3: Yvonne is desperate and she realizes, oh, I've got this

667
00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:29,160
Speaker 3: creepy admirer, doctor Gogol, and he's the world's greatest surgeon.

668
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:32,239
Speaker 3: I can take Stephen to him. And so that's what

669
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:35,280
Speaker 3: she does. She has Stephen taking an ambulance to doctor

670
00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:38,160
Speaker 3: Gogol's clinic and says, you've got to save his hands.

671
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:42,640
Speaker 3: He needs them to play. But unfortunately doctor Gogol discovers

672
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:45,879
Speaker 3: it is impossible to salvage his hands as they are.

673
00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:50,920
Speaker 3: But Gogol, in his desire to please Yvonne, manages to

674
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:55,800
Speaker 3: transplant Rolo the knife thrower's hands onto Stephen's wrists.

675
00:37:56,719 --> 00:38:00,600
Speaker 2: Yes, he decides to to essentially try him. There's that

676
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:02,920
Speaker 2: great scene where he's in there with doctor Wong and

677
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:09,600
Speaker 2: Laurie's character proclaims an impossible Napoleon said that word is

678
00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:10,200
Speaker 2: not French.

679
00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:12,000
Speaker 3: Yes, that part's great.

680
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:12,480
Speaker 2: Yeah.

681
00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:14,560
Speaker 3: So it seems for a while like all is well,

682
00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:18,239
Speaker 3: or you know, Stephen discovers that his hands work, and

683
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:21,880
Speaker 3: everything's good until Steven starts to figure out that he

684
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:24,319
Speaker 3: can't play the piano anymore. You hear, there are these

685
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:27,279
Speaker 3: scenes of him sort of banging on the keys with

686
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:31,760
Speaker 3: with nothing like the deafness that he's used to and

687
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:34,640
Speaker 3: he so he can't play the piano, but he can

688
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:38,680
Speaker 3: do things he couldn't do before, such as accurately throw

689
00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:42,080
Speaker 3: knives and pins so that they stick into doors and walls.

690
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:43,880
Speaker 2: Yes, how does he discover this?

691
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:46,520
Speaker 3: I think he just gets angry. So this is part

692
00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:50,520
Speaker 3: of the personality bleed over too, because there's the idea

693
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:54,200
Speaker 3: that his hands have the skills of Raloh with throwing

694
00:38:54,239 --> 00:39:00,360
Speaker 3: a knife, but they also have Raullo's murderous inclination. That

695
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:04,120
Speaker 3: he's suddenly violent when he wasn't before. Now this leads

696
00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:07,680
Speaker 3: to all kinds of problems because he can't play piano. Suddenly,

697
00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:12,280
Speaker 3: they're in want of money, and Stephen and Yvonne's position

698
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:16,360
Speaker 3: just sorts to fall apart, and Yvonne goes to Gogl

699
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 3: for help. Go Gol of course demands her love and

700
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:22,759
Speaker 3: she won't give it to him, and then, in a

701
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:26,040
Speaker 3: fit of rage, go Gol decides that he needs to

702
00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:30,600
Speaker 3: drive Stephen mad. So his plan is that he's going

703
00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:36,040
Speaker 3: to commit murders and then assume the identity of Rollo,

704
00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:40,399
Speaker 3: the knife thrower who Stephen knows was executed, and try

705
00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:45,279
Speaker 3: to convince Stephen that Stephen himself did the murders that

706
00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:48,520
Speaker 3: the go Gol actually did, by telling him the truth

707
00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:52,800
Speaker 3: that he has Rollo's hands on his wrists and using

708
00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:55,840
Speaker 3: as proof the fact that he go Gol, pretending to

709
00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:59,919
Speaker 3: be Rallo, is now still alive because go Gol transplant

710
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:03,879
Speaker 3: did his dead head onto another person's body. And this

711
00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:07,480
Speaker 3: is when gogl as Rollo dawns that amazing outfit with

712
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:10,320
Speaker 3: the neck brace and the leather and the steel hands.

713
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:13,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it is just it is a really haunting scene.

714
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:16,799
Speaker 2: It is if you if you don't have the I

715
00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:18,759
Speaker 2: don't know the courage or the time to watch the

716
00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:22,000
Speaker 2: full movie. I think, uh, I think there's a there's

717
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:24,120
Speaker 2: some clip. There's a clip of this, an official clip

718
00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:28,919
Speaker 2: of just this scene online and yeah, it's wonderful. It's

719
00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:33,319
Speaker 2: there's so there's the costume level of it, which we've

720
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:38,719
Speaker 2: described already, but also Gogel as Rollo is speaking in

721
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:42,719
Speaker 2: this this faint whisper, this raspy whisper, you know, the

722
00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:46,560
Speaker 2: voice of one whose whose head has been refused with

723
00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:50,440
Speaker 2: his body, and he's he feels at once like this

724
00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:54,920
Speaker 2: this this strange, perverse miracle of modern surgery. But also

725
00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:58,560
Speaker 2: he's like a ghost. He's like a wraith brought back

726
00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:01,399
Speaker 2: to warn uh or Lock of what is to come.

727
00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:05,040
Speaker 3: I am a little confused about Gogol's plan or the

728
00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:08,799
Speaker 3: logic of it. So I think what he thinks is

729
00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:15,400
Speaker 3: that if he can falsely convince Stephen that he did murders,

730
00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:19,440
Speaker 3: this will cause Stephen to continue to actually do.

731
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:23,279
Speaker 2: Murders, right, or get caught by the police, either by

732
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:26,760
Speaker 2: turning himself in or just by doing more murders. Yeah,

733
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:28,880
Speaker 2: either way, it's a win for Gogle because then he

734
00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:31,359
Speaker 2: can swoop in and you know, he and Evon will

735
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:32,919
Speaker 2: be married and live happily ever after.

736
00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:37,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, but he sort of neglects to consider the fact

737
00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:39,480
Speaker 3: that Yvonn doesn't want to marry him. Go Gol is

738
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:41,800
Speaker 3: not thinking clearly at this point, right.

739
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:45,560
Speaker 2: He doesn't have a good head for romance. No, you know,

740
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:48,120
Speaker 2: he asked that question at one point. He says, hi,

741
00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:52,880
Speaker 2: peasdant have conquered science, why can't I conquer love? And

742
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:55,320
Speaker 2: I mean, clearly he has a great head for science,

743
00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:58,600
Speaker 2: but not for love. He doesn't really understand how love works.

744
00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:03,000
Speaker 2: And you know, he can certainly use his technical skills

745
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:06,080
Speaker 2: in his brilliant mind to put the hands of a

746
00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:10,680
Speaker 2: dead man onto the hands of a survivor. But in

747
00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:15,360
Speaker 2: terms of transplanting Yvonne into his life, that is beyond

748
00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:18,520
Speaker 2: his ability. But he still has this wonderfully perhaps overly

749
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:22,200
Speaker 2: complex plan to pull it off. It may sound a

750
00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:24,080
Speaker 2: bit overly complex here, but I don't know. I feel

751
00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:26,960
Speaker 2: like within the context of this plot and in the

752
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:29,279
Speaker 2: context of this movie, it works. You just kind of

753
00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:31,200
Speaker 2: have to roll with it. But it was just.

754
00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:33,439
Speaker 3: Sort of skips lightly over the top of the water

755
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:38,080
Speaker 3: and then moves on. Yeah, So, of course Stephen is

756
00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:41,520
Speaker 3: implicated in these murders that Gogol did, or at least

757
00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:43,799
Speaker 3: one murder. I think maybe it's just one actually, and

758
00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:47,880
Speaker 3: he so he's arrested by the police, and Yvonne goes

759
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:51,920
Speaker 3: to Gogol's apartment to confront him. But then while she's there,

760
00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:54,719
Speaker 3: she discovers his evil plan, and.

761
00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:58,920
Speaker 2: Because he's coming back in the rollo costume cackling to

762
00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:02,080
Speaker 2: himself about how about it, basically reveals his entire plot

763
00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:05,160
Speaker 2: and then taking the costume off, and what does she

764
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:05,960
Speaker 2: do to hide?

765
00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:07,960
Speaker 3: Oh wait, no, before we get there, I've got to

766
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:10,640
Speaker 3: say about when he's explaining the plot. He's not even

767
00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:13,439
Speaker 3: doing the Bond villain explaining it to Bond. He's doing

768
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:16,200
Speaker 3: the Bond villain explaining his whole scheme to no one.

769
00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:18,000
Speaker 3: He's just explaining it to the ceiling.

770
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:20,480
Speaker 2: Isn't there a bird?

771
00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:21,640
Speaker 3: Oh maybe it is the parrot.

772
00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:22,279
Speaker 2: There is a bird.

773
00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:25,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, Okay, I take it back. Maybe he's explaining to

774
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:27,959
Speaker 3: the bird. But yes, So he's coming home, he's coming

775
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:30,520
Speaker 3: into his study. She's there because she had come to

776
00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:35,040
Speaker 3: confront him, and then she discovers she she has to hide,

777
00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:38,320
Speaker 3: and in this suspenseful final scene, she has to pretend

778
00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:41,400
Speaker 3: to be the wax sculpture of herself, which is a

779
00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:43,040
Speaker 3: fantastic set piece.

780
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:45,960
Speaker 2: And it's it's really well shot too. There's this wonderful

781
00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:49,760
Speaker 2: sort of long shot where they come around the corner.

782
00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:53,399
Speaker 2: It's like Gogol's point of view, and there she is

783
00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:56,160
Speaker 2: standing there as the wax sculpture. It's it's a beautiful

784
00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:56,960
Speaker 2: moment in the film.

785
00:43:57,040 --> 00:44:00,000
Speaker 3: Mm hmm uh. And then, of course, uh, the steam

786
00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:02,840
Speaker 3: and the police come to the rescue. I feel like

787
00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:06,560
Speaker 3: it has a kind of disappointing conventional ending where Steven

788
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:09,040
Speaker 3: in the climax puts his new hands to good use,

789
00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:14,279
Speaker 3: you could say, and then it's just like, okay, go

790
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:18,440
Speaker 3: Goll's dead, and then Steven and Yvonne embrace, and then

791
00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:24,360
Speaker 3: just immediately the end happily ever after. This is the

792
00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:27,560
Speaker 3: thing about a lot of these old movies. It seems

793
00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:31,080
Speaker 3: like they wrap up very fast. They don't have any

794
00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:33,799
Speaker 3: kind of interesting coda that puts a new spin on this.

795
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:35,759
Speaker 3: Like it's like this movie, it's like the moment the

796
00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:39,800
Speaker 3: villain is defeated, the two main characters embrace and kiss,

797
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:42,120
Speaker 3: and then music swells and it's over at the end.

798
00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:46,560
Speaker 2: Well, you know, bladders were much smaller back then, and

799
00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:48,360
Speaker 2: you can only make it so far through a film.

800
00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:51,440
Speaker 3: Speaking of bladders, there are some great side plots we

801
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:53,719
Speaker 3: haven't even mentioned. Actually, I don't know if they're great.

802
00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:58,080
Speaker 3: There are some side plots that exist involving an alcoholic

803
00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:01,680
Speaker 3: housekeeper who's always trying to you get some brandy, and

804
00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:05,880
Speaker 3: a fast talking American reporter played by Ted Healy, who's

805
00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:08,000
Speaker 3: the guy who you know he sounds like a baseball

806
00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:12,239
Speaker 3: announcer of the nineteen thirties, and he's always using strange

807
00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:17,840
Speaker 3: mannerisms and figures of speech. Like there's a scene where

808
00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:21,840
Speaker 3: where Rollo is about to be executed by guillotine and

809
00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:24,680
Speaker 3: he's there to cover it. I don't know why this

810
00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:27,680
Speaker 3: American reporter is there to cover the guillotining of a

811
00:45:27,719 --> 00:45:32,520
Speaker 3: criminal there in Paris, but he's explaining to the police

812
00:45:32,520 --> 00:45:35,120
Speaker 3: commissioner that He's like, look, you know, you got to

813
00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:37,880
Speaker 3: have jen for executions, you got to have champagne for this.

814
00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:41,919
Speaker 3: And I can't reproduce it, but it's pretty good.

815
00:45:42,239 --> 00:45:45,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, But it's that kind of snappy, snappy American accent

816
00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:47,319
Speaker 2: that you hear in these old films and you end

817
00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:50,239
Speaker 2: up wondering, I think people ever actually talk like this

818
00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:53,560
Speaker 2: or is this just this sort of vaudevillian trope, because

819
00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:56,600
Speaker 2: I believe Heally was like a Vaudevillian comic actor. I

820
00:45:56,680 --> 00:46:00,719
Speaker 2: think he had ties to the Three Stooges, even its

821
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:01,840
Speaker 2: part of that whole syndicate.

822
00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:07,080
Speaker 3: I think it is playing up the Transatlantic accent of

823
00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:09,560
Speaker 3: the time, which was like not an organic accent, but

824
00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:13,120
Speaker 3: an accent that was sort of a a product of training.

825
00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:18,400
Speaker 3: And so it was taking that accent and then accentuating

826
00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:21,279
Speaker 3: it to unreal levels like what it's kind of like

827
00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:23,960
Speaker 3: what a lot of like pop country musicians do with

828
00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:28,080
Speaker 3: their Southern accents and music today, where you're taking something

829
00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:31,080
Speaker 3: that is a real accent but just playing it up

830
00:46:31,080 --> 00:46:33,040
Speaker 3: to a point that it's a parody of itself.

831
00:46:33,520 --> 00:46:35,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so it's kind of kind in a

832
00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:38,319
Speaker 2: like a vicious circle of self parody and you end

833
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:40,560
Speaker 2: up with this just, I have to say, kind of

834
00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:44,080
Speaker 2: obnoxious performance. That's just it's just full of one liners

835
00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:47,080
Speaker 2: and zingers, and I mean, I wouldn't take it out.

836
00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:50,160
Speaker 2: It's it's part of this film, but it's it's I

837
00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:55,719
Speaker 2: feel like the modern parallel here would be an otherwise

838
00:46:56,280 --> 00:46:59,600
Speaker 2: serious film. And suddenly Rob Schneider shows up and he's

839
00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:03,920
Speaker 2: doing some sort of goofy lame character. I meanwhile, you

840
00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:07,080
Speaker 2: have like Peter Lourie and Colin Clive, you know, doing

841
00:47:07,120 --> 00:47:21,200
Speaker 2: their own crazy but ultimately seriously grounded performance. All right, So,

842
00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:24,680
Speaker 2: as we've been pointing out, this film really centers around

843
00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:29,400
Speaker 2: hand transplantation. So let's talk a little bit about the

844
00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:33,760
Speaker 2: science of hand transplantation and also the history of hand transplantation.

845
00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:38,680
Speaker 3: All right, Well, hand transplantation is it's interesting how this

846
00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:41,480
Speaker 3: movie fits into the history of it, because hand transplantation

847
00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:45,000
Speaker 3: is absolutely real now, but it was not at the

848
00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:47,880
Speaker 3: time this film was made, I was looking at a

849
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:51,719
Speaker 3: paper called the History and Evolution of Hand Transplantation, published

850
00:47:51,719 --> 00:47:55,480
Speaker 3: in the journal hand Clinics in twenty eleven by Furuhar

851
00:47:55,640 --> 00:48:00,440
Speaker 3: at All and so one thing to note is that

852
00:48:00,520 --> 00:48:05,759
Speaker 3: hand transplantation is an example of a broader class of

853
00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:10,680
Speaker 3: surgeries that are now known as vascularized composite ALLO transplantation

854
00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:16,359
Speaker 3: or sometimes vascularized composite allograft a VCA for short, and

855
00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:19,640
Speaker 3: this basically means the grafting of a whole unit organ

856
00:48:19,800 --> 00:48:27,240
Speaker 3: composed of multiple kinds of tissue, so that would mean muscles, tendons, circulation, bones, nerves, skin,

857
00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:29,799
Speaker 3: It's a lot of different stuff and it all has

858
00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:33,000
Speaker 3: to connect properly to be functional, which is not easy.

859
00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:37,200
Speaker 3: It's sometimes described as like there's this ascending ladder of

860
00:48:37,239 --> 00:48:40,600
Speaker 3: the priorities of things that you have to connect and

861
00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:44,520
Speaker 3: in what order of importance they come, and it does

862
00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:49,080
Speaker 3: rely on very advanced techniques in microsurgery. Now, obviously the

863
00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:52,520
Speaker 3: surgery involved to connect a hand to an arm segment

864
00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:56,319
Speaker 3: in a functional way is really complicated, but it's not

865
00:48:56,400 --> 00:48:58,959
Speaker 3: just the complexity of the surgery. One of the main

866
00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:03,040
Speaker 3: barriers to successful hand transplantation in history, or at least

867
00:49:03,040 --> 00:49:09,040
Speaker 3: in previous decades, was the insufficient development of immunosuppression, without

868
00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:12,640
Speaker 3: which the immune system will revolt and reject the new organ.

869
00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:16,799
Speaker 3: The first ever hand transplant that we know of was

870
00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:20,720
Speaker 3: performed by a doctor Robert Gilbert in Ecuador in nineteen

871
00:49:20,840 --> 00:49:25,640
Speaker 3: sixty four, and this transplant did not really work. So

872
00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:28,920
Speaker 3: the authors here explained that about three weeks after the

873
00:49:28,920 --> 00:49:32,920
Speaker 3: initial graft, the transplanted hand had to be amputated because

874
00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:37,120
Speaker 3: there was an acute immune rejection. And the authors say

875
00:49:37,160 --> 00:49:40,520
Speaker 3: that quote This early experience, along with similar failures in

876
00:49:40,600 --> 00:49:45,520
Speaker 3: animal models, led researchers to believe that skin bearing transplants

877
00:49:45,560 --> 00:49:50,560
Speaker 3: were prohibitively immunogenic. A thirty year period of stagnation followed,

878
00:49:51,040 --> 00:49:54,319
Speaker 3: but then in the nineteen eighties and nineties, new medications

879
00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:58,440
Speaker 3: came online that made hand transplantation seem viable again, and

880
00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:03,320
Speaker 3: they list a few examples here, including calcineurin inhibitors, cyclospore

881
00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:08,320
Speaker 3: in A, TACROLEMAS, and MMF, and drugs like these opened

882
00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:12,080
Speaker 3: the doors to multiple kinds of VCA. The authors here

883
00:50:12,560 --> 00:50:15,600
Speaker 3: cite a couple of the first successful hand transplants in

884
00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:18,600
Speaker 3: the late nineteen nineties, one of which actually was in

885
00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:23,440
Speaker 3: France by a surgeon named Jean Michel Dubernard and his

886
00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:27,640
Speaker 3: colleagues in Leone in nineteen ninety eight. So this first

887
00:50:27,719 --> 00:50:31,440
Speaker 3: patient in ninety eight received a single hand transplant. The

888
00:50:31,480 --> 00:50:35,840
Speaker 3: surgery apparently took thirteen hours and the operation was at

889
00:50:35,920 --> 00:50:40,120
Speaker 3: first successful, but unfortunately the patient did not follow instructions

890
00:50:40,160 --> 00:50:44,480
Speaker 3: for his immunosuppression and physical therapy, and he eventually left

891
00:50:44,520 --> 00:50:47,080
Speaker 3: the care of the team in Leone, and this had

892
00:50:47,480 --> 00:50:51,200
Speaker 3: disastrous consequences and he had to have the hand amputated

893
00:50:51,200 --> 00:50:54,839
Speaker 3: in two thousand and one. Presumably it didn't say why,

894
00:50:54,880 --> 00:50:58,359
Speaker 3: but presumably this was because of immune rejection. And then

895
00:50:58,400 --> 00:51:02,120
Speaker 3: the same group in France under du Bernard performed the

896
00:51:02,120 --> 00:51:06,880
Speaker 3: world's first bilateral hand transplant, so both hands in January

897
00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:10,759
Speaker 3: two thousand. Here the patient was a painter thirty three

898
00:51:10,840 --> 00:51:13,319
Speaker 3: years old who lost both of his hands when he

899
00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:16,520
Speaker 3: was experimenting with a homemade rocket and it exploded.

900
00:51:16,840 --> 00:51:17,320
Speaker 2: Oh wow.

901
00:51:17,600 --> 00:51:19,920
Speaker 3: Now, the time of this review that was published in

902
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:23,520
Speaker 3: twenty eleven, the authors believed that more than sixty five

903
00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:27,560
Speaker 3: hand transplants had been carried out worldwide, most of them

904
00:51:27,640 --> 00:51:30,239
Speaker 3: at this point were successful, some had had to be

905
00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:34,400
Speaker 3: amputated due to immune reactions, but most of them were successful.

906
00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:37,480
Speaker 3: I haven't found a more recent estimate, but surely the

907
00:51:37,520 --> 00:51:39,399
Speaker 3: number is a good bit higher than that now as

908
00:51:39,440 --> 00:51:41,240
Speaker 3: therapies have continued to evolve.

909
00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:44,560
Speaker 2: You know, doctor Cody k Azari is a big name

910
00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:47,839
Speaker 2: in hand transplantation, having served as one of the lead

911
00:51:47,920 --> 00:51:51,960
Speaker 2: surgeons on six hand transplantation operations, including the first double

912
00:51:52,080 --> 00:51:57,279
Speaker 2: hand transplantation and first arm transplantation performed in the United States.

913
00:51:57,719 --> 00:52:00,239
Speaker 2: I got to hear him give a talk for the

914
00:52:00,280 --> 00:52:03,000
Speaker 2: Moth in New York City several years ago as part

915
00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:05,680
Speaker 2: of the World Science Festival, and you can listen to

916
00:52:05,719 --> 00:52:08,520
Speaker 2: this at themoth dot org or look it up on YouTube,

917
00:52:08,520 --> 00:52:10,719
Speaker 2: I believe. But it was a really cool talk because

918
00:52:10,920 --> 00:52:13,799
Speaker 2: he talks about just the intensity of the surgery, and

919
00:52:13,840 --> 00:52:18,440
Speaker 2: I remember feeling like like I either got the impression

920
00:52:18,719 --> 00:52:21,920
Speaker 2: or maybe he even used this comparison himself, that you

921
00:52:22,080 --> 00:52:24,640
Speaker 2: got the idea that this was like scaling a mountain,

922
00:52:24,719 --> 00:52:27,919
Speaker 2: you know, it was like the surgical you know, again,

923
00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:31,120
Speaker 2: all the different types of connections that have to be made,

924
00:52:31,760 --> 00:52:33,399
Speaker 2: you know, all the concerns that have to be taken

925
00:52:33,400 --> 00:52:35,919
Speaker 2: into place to pull this off. You know, it's it's

926
00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:39,160
Speaker 2: really impressive. And that's without even getting again into what

927
00:52:39,320 --> 00:52:41,960
Speaker 2: comes afterward. You know, it's not a situation where you

928
00:52:42,000 --> 00:52:45,080
Speaker 2: wake up Stephen Orlock and say hey, you got new hands,

929
00:52:45,280 --> 00:52:46,600
Speaker 2: and he's like okay, I'm gonna go and try and

930
00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:49,279
Speaker 2: play piano and like, no, it's there. You know, there's

931
00:52:49,400 --> 00:52:51,880
Speaker 2: a drug regime that has to be followed, and physical

932
00:52:51,920 --> 00:52:56,480
Speaker 2: therapy is a huge part of adapting to life post transplantation.

933
00:52:56,920 --> 00:52:59,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, and some of the sources I was looking at

934
00:53:00,040 --> 00:53:05,000
Speaker 3: emphasized the importance of the psychology, like psychological screening and

935
00:53:05,040 --> 00:53:08,360
Speaker 3: the psychology of how people adapt to hand transplants. I

936
00:53:08,360 --> 00:53:12,120
Speaker 3: mean for multiple reasons, but one of which is following

937
00:53:12,239 --> 00:53:16,120
Speaker 3: through after the surgery is incredibly important, as was for example,

938
00:53:16,120 --> 00:53:18,360
Speaker 3: made clear by that first case where the guy was

939
00:53:18,400 --> 00:53:22,000
Speaker 3: not taking his immunosuppression drugs properly, it was not following

940
00:53:22,080 --> 00:53:25,879
Speaker 3: through physical therapy, and that eventually led to the hand

941
00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:26,800
Speaker 3: being rejected.

942
00:53:27,600 --> 00:53:30,600
Speaker 2: Yeah. On the psychological front, I was looking at a

943
00:53:30,640 --> 00:53:35,160
Speaker 2: paper from nineteen ninety nine by Martin M. Klappeck, MD

944
00:53:35,360 --> 00:53:40,200
Speaker 2: titled Transplantation in the Human Hand Psychiatric Considerations, and the

945
00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:41,920
Speaker 2: author here points out the one has to take into

946
00:53:41,960 --> 00:53:44,560
Speaker 2: account the psychology of the hand as well as the

947
00:53:44,640 --> 00:53:49,480
Speaker 2: quote psychodynamic issues in limb loss and the psychological integration

948
00:53:49,920 --> 00:53:53,440
Speaker 2: of a transplanted hand. He wrote, quote, Potential candidates for

949
00:53:53,480 --> 00:53:57,960
Speaker 2: hand transplantation should receive a psychiatric interview and projective testing

950
00:53:58,239 --> 00:54:03,279
Speaker 2: to assess the patient's adaptability to body image, level of personality, organization,

951
00:54:03,719 --> 00:54:07,440
Speaker 2: and capacity for pathological regression. And one of the things

952
00:54:07,480 --> 00:54:10,279
Speaker 2: that he was pointing out is that at the time anyway,

953
00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:13,359
Speaker 2: there wasn't as much of this, Like just there you

954
00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:16,880
Speaker 2: saw this with the various levels of organ transplantation, but

955
00:54:17,719 --> 00:54:20,120
Speaker 2: there apparently wasn't as much of it in place for

956
00:54:20,280 --> 00:54:21,360
Speaker 2: hand transplantation.

957
00:54:21,800 --> 00:54:24,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, and this now hopefully that will look for hand

958
00:54:24,680 --> 00:54:27,600
Speaker 3: transplantation is just continuing to get better, it seems like

959
00:54:27,640 --> 00:54:30,799
Speaker 3: it is. But for at least going back to say

960
00:54:30,880 --> 00:54:33,440
Speaker 3: ten or twenty years ago, I was seeing papers that

961
00:54:33,440 --> 00:54:37,439
Speaker 3: were talking about the pros and cons of hand transplantation, saying, well,

962
00:54:37,880 --> 00:54:41,680
Speaker 3: you could potentially get this quality of life increase, like

963
00:54:41,920 --> 00:54:46,200
Speaker 3: with the transplanted hand as opposed to prosthetics. But you know,

964
00:54:46,440 --> 00:54:50,520
Speaker 3: obviously there are major health consequences, like if it is rejected,

965
00:54:50,560 --> 00:54:53,640
Speaker 3: so there are big risks involved as well, and there

966
00:54:54,600 --> 00:54:58,120
Speaker 3: it seems like over time the pros are starting to

967
00:54:58,160 --> 00:55:00,800
Speaker 3: build up and the cons are decreasing. But for a while,

968
00:55:00,880 --> 00:55:03,319
Speaker 3: I think there was serious debate over whether this was

969
00:55:03,320 --> 00:55:07,200
Speaker 3: a reasonable surgery to perform given all the risks and downsides.

970
00:55:08,239 --> 00:55:10,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you can find sort of outstanding examples

971
00:55:10,840 --> 00:55:15,720
Speaker 2: in either direction. So take bilateral hand transplantation for example.

972
00:55:15,719 --> 00:55:17,640
Speaker 2: You know someone who's lost both hands and they get

973
00:55:17,680 --> 00:55:21,799
Speaker 2: two hands transplanted on. For instance. Some of you might

974
00:55:21,840 --> 00:55:25,320
Speaker 2: remember in twenty sixteen there was the case of American

975
00:55:26,760 --> 00:55:30,799
Speaker 2: double hand transplant recipient Jeff Kepner, who made headlines saying

976
00:55:30,840 --> 00:55:35,279
Speaker 2: that he wanted his own transplanted planted hands removed that

977
00:55:35,520 --> 00:55:39,000
Speaker 2: he had received like ten years earlier. And it wasn't

978
00:55:39,080 --> 00:55:43,120
Speaker 2: something where he was blaming the doctors, like he's communicated that,

979
00:55:43,120 --> 00:55:45,000
Speaker 2: you know, he knew it was a risk to try

980
00:55:45,000 --> 00:55:46,759
Speaker 2: this out, but he wanted to give it a go.

981
00:55:47,200 --> 00:55:49,200
Speaker 2: But at this point he was saying, like I just

982
00:55:49,239 --> 00:55:51,880
Speaker 2: don't have functionality in these hands, like I was better

983
00:55:52,360 --> 00:55:56,799
Speaker 2: with with process is instead, and I would prefer to

984
00:55:56,840 --> 00:56:00,759
Speaker 2: go back, if possible, to what I had before. But

985
00:56:00,800 --> 00:56:03,160
Speaker 2: then on the other hand, you have the case of

986
00:56:03,239 --> 00:56:07,160
Speaker 2: an Austrian police officer named Theo Klez who is able

987
00:56:07,160 --> 00:56:11,520
Speaker 2: to return full to full time work after bilateral hand transplantation.

988
00:56:12,120 --> 00:56:14,279
Speaker 2: So it is very much a success story. And that

989
00:56:14,360 --> 00:56:17,799
Speaker 2: story is even even more dramatic because Klez was a

990
00:56:17,840 --> 00:56:22,080
Speaker 2: bomb disposal expert working to diffuse a bomb placed in

991
00:56:22,120 --> 00:56:26,160
Speaker 2: a school by Austrian mass murder of Franz Fuchs, who

992
00:56:26,960 --> 00:56:30,759
Speaker 2: killed four and injured fifteen in five waves of male

993
00:56:30,840 --> 00:56:33,200
Speaker 2: bombs I think a total of twenty four mail bombs.

994
00:56:33,200 --> 00:56:37,840
Speaker 2: So a rather dramatic case, but ultimately a surgical success story,

995
00:56:37,840 --> 00:56:38,480
Speaker 2: I understand.

996
00:56:38,760 --> 00:56:42,000
Speaker 3: So it seems like the transplantation of hands has made

997
00:56:42,000 --> 00:56:45,600
Speaker 3: great strides and I think is continuing to do so.

998
00:56:46,120 --> 00:56:50,160
Speaker 3: The transplantation of heads is another theme in the movie,

999
00:56:50,200 --> 00:56:53,479
Speaker 3: though I don't think in the film anyone actually gets

1000
00:56:53,520 --> 00:56:57,040
Speaker 3: their head transplanted. It's just that doctor Gogol comes up

1001
00:56:57,080 --> 00:57:01,040
Speaker 3: with this story to try to drive drive, calling Clive

1002
00:57:01,200 --> 00:57:05,920
Speaker 3: Insaying by saying that he is Rollo after having undergone

1003
00:57:05,920 --> 00:57:09,160
Speaker 3: a head transplant which didn't actually happen. It's just Gogall

1004
00:57:09,200 --> 00:57:10,360
Speaker 3: in disguise.

1005
00:57:10,320 --> 00:57:14,000
Speaker 2: Right, and again it's almost almost feels like a tragedy

1006
00:57:14,040 --> 00:57:17,960
Speaker 2: that we have created such a fantastic character that is

1007
00:57:18,000 --> 00:57:20,600
Speaker 2: itself a fantasy within the context of the film. But

1008
00:57:20,800 --> 00:57:23,840
Speaker 2: I don't know, it's still it's still perfect. It's still perfect. Yeah.

1009
00:57:23,960 --> 00:57:26,560
Speaker 3: Now, every few years it seems like you hear new

1010
00:57:26,640 --> 00:57:29,600
Speaker 3: stories about a doctor or surgeon somewhere who claims that

1011
00:57:29,720 --> 00:57:33,200
Speaker 3: they can perform a head transplant or however you want

1012
00:57:33,240 --> 00:57:35,320
Speaker 3: to call it. We could talk about the terminology. It

1013
00:57:35,480 --> 00:57:39,720
Speaker 3: just never seems to materialize. I don't know how realistic

1014
00:57:39,760 --> 00:57:42,680
Speaker 3: the idea of a head transplant with modern medicine is.

1015
00:57:43,400 --> 00:57:48,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's if we can compare hand transplantation to scaling

1016
00:57:48,760 --> 00:57:54,360
Speaker 2: a mountain, then ultimately head transplantation or whole body transplantation

1017
00:57:55,120 --> 00:57:57,520
Speaker 2: the other way referring to it, this would be the

1018
00:57:57,560 --> 00:58:01,240
Speaker 2: Mount Everest, Like, this would be the ultimate peace because.

1019
00:58:00,960 --> 00:58:02,720
Speaker 3: It's more like scaling a mountain on the moon.

1020
00:58:03,640 --> 00:58:06,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it is. Uh, it would be the ultimate

1021
00:58:06,400 --> 00:58:10,600
Speaker 2: surgical achievement because this is this is something you know,

1022
00:58:10,640 --> 00:58:13,160
Speaker 2: we have to face, like no human being has ever

1023
00:58:13,280 --> 00:58:17,000
Speaker 2: truly survived decapitation. I mean, certainly there are arguments and

1024
00:58:17,080 --> 00:58:20,640
Speaker 2: various observations about how long consciousness seems to remain in

1025
00:58:20,680 --> 00:58:24,160
Speaker 2: a freshly cut head. But this is only brief. Yeah,

1026
00:58:24,320 --> 00:58:27,720
Speaker 2: you know, interns right in terms of keeping it alive

1027
00:58:28,160 --> 00:58:30,720
Speaker 2: in a jar or on a pan, as we see

1028
00:58:30,800 --> 00:58:34,360
Speaker 2: in a whole other genre of sci fi films from

1029
00:58:34,400 --> 00:58:38,160
Speaker 2: the especially the twentieth century. You know, that is that

1030
00:58:38,280 --> 00:58:41,000
Speaker 2: is thus far beyond us, as certainly is the idea

1031
00:58:41,080 --> 00:58:44,400
Speaker 2: of taking ahead and attaching a body to it so

1032
00:58:44,480 --> 00:58:48,240
Speaker 2: that we the head can use the body. And this

1033
00:58:48,280 --> 00:58:50,240
Speaker 2: is where it gets kind of weird, like, not only

1034
00:58:50,320 --> 00:58:53,080
Speaker 2: is this like not a surgical reality, it's still within

1035
00:58:53,160 --> 00:58:56,280
Speaker 2: the realm of fantasy like it even it even further

1036
00:58:56,360 --> 00:58:59,800
Speaker 2: accentuates that question of what is self? What is body?

1037
00:59:00,200 --> 00:59:03,000
Speaker 2: The idea of head and body it because it is

1038
00:59:03,440 --> 00:59:07,120
Speaker 2: a quite literal invocation of the whole. You know, we've

1039
00:59:07,120 --> 00:59:10,320
Speaker 2: talked about the mind body connection and how it is

1040
00:59:10,600 --> 00:59:14,160
Speaker 2: perhaps unhealthy to think of ourselves as a brain attached

1041
00:59:14,160 --> 00:59:16,400
Speaker 2: to a body, a head on a body, like a

1042
00:59:16,520 --> 00:59:19,280
Speaker 2: rider on a horse, when instead we're this integrated system.

1043
00:59:19,360 --> 00:59:23,760
Speaker 2: We are essentially a centaur of mind and body. But

1044
00:59:23,840 --> 00:59:25,840
Speaker 2: then you have an example like this, or at least

1045
00:59:25,960 --> 00:59:28,560
Speaker 2: a theoretical idea like this, that you could take the

1046
00:59:28,600 --> 00:59:31,040
Speaker 2: head and attach it to another body, and this would

1047
00:59:31,040 --> 00:59:34,200
Speaker 2: be the new individual you know, it does raise all

1048
00:59:34,240 --> 00:59:39,080
Speaker 2: sorts of questions and and even nightmares in the human mind.

1049
00:59:39,760 --> 00:59:42,080
Speaker 3: It does remind me of the Daniel Dinnett short story

1050
00:59:42,120 --> 00:59:44,480
Speaker 3: where am I that we've talked about on the show before.

1051
00:59:45,120 --> 00:59:47,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it raises all sorts of questions, big

1052
00:59:47,880 --> 00:59:54,720
Speaker 2: questions and small questions, thoughtful questions and grotesque ones. I

1053
00:59:54,800 --> 00:59:57,280
Speaker 2: feel like there's there's at least one episode right where

1054
00:59:57,280 --> 01:00:00,320
Speaker 2: there's a head transplantation on the Simpsons. It's like a

1055
01:00:00,320 --> 01:00:00,880
Speaker 2: treehouse of.

1056
01:00:00,840 --> 01:00:02,439
Speaker 3: Horror where that sounds right?

1057
01:00:02,800 --> 01:00:05,920
Speaker 2: Yeah? The what they put Homer's brain in a robot

1058
01:00:05,920 --> 01:00:08,919
Speaker 2: and the robot falls onto mister Burns and then mister

1059
01:00:08,960 --> 01:00:11,880
Speaker 2: burns head is transplanted onto Homer's body.

1060
01:00:12,280 --> 01:00:15,920
Speaker 3: Why was I imagining Flanders head on Homer's body? That

1061
01:00:15,920 --> 01:00:18,040
Speaker 3: doesn't sound That's not right, is it?

1062
01:00:18,600 --> 01:00:20,600
Speaker 2: Maybe they got around to that later. There are a

1063
01:00:20,640 --> 01:00:22,439
Speaker 2: lot of treehouses I haven't seen. Well.

1064
01:00:22,520 --> 01:00:25,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, with this point at the Simpsons, basically you can

1065
01:00:25,160 --> 01:00:27,800
Speaker 3: just like throw out random ideas and then it turns

1066
01:00:27,840 --> 01:00:30,360
Speaker 3: out they already did that in an episode and probably

1067
01:00:30,400 --> 01:00:31,600
Speaker 3: maybe did it more than once.

1068
01:00:33,040 --> 01:00:36,760
Speaker 2: Now, in terms of surviving decapitation, there are animals that

1069
01:00:36,800 --> 01:00:39,880
Speaker 2: can survive longer certainly longer than us without a head.

1070
01:00:39,920 --> 01:00:43,560
Speaker 2: It's often pointed out that decapitated cockroaches die of starvation

1071
01:00:43,760 --> 01:00:47,320
Speaker 2: rather than just simply the loss of their head.

1072
01:00:47,600 --> 01:00:49,800
Speaker 3: But there you're talking about which one? Are you talking

1073
01:00:49,800 --> 01:00:51,680
Speaker 3: about surviving the head or the body?

1074
01:00:52,320 --> 01:00:55,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, again, it kind of messes with our conception of

1075
01:00:55,560 --> 01:00:59,360
Speaker 2: what an individual, even an individual cockroach is, right. It's

1076
01:00:59,440 --> 01:01:01,320
Speaker 2: kind of like that running around like a chicken with

1077
01:01:01,320 --> 01:01:03,560
Speaker 2: the head cut off, which is alluding to, you know,

1078
01:01:03,640 --> 01:01:07,200
Speaker 2: observations that a chicken seems to the chicken's body seems

1079
01:01:07,200 --> 01:01:09,120
Speaker 2: to live longer than a human body without a head.

1080
01:01:09,840 --> 01:01:12,720
Speaker 2: But is the body living? You know, is the head?

1081
01:01:13,160 --> 01:01:14,240
Speaker 2: It gets complicated.

1082
01:01:14,360 --> 01:01:16,520
Speaker 3: I could be mistaken about this because it's just off

1083
01:01:16,560 --> 01:01:18,960
Speaker 3: the top of my head, so to speak. But I

1084
01:01:19,000 --> 01:01:22,640
Speaker 3: think the reason that's observed with chickens is because the

1085
01:01:22,680 --> 01:01:26,280
Speaker 3: brain basically isn't fully removed, like you can sort of

1086
01:01:26,320 --> 01:01:29,160
Speaker 3: decapitate a chicken, but the brain stem is still there

1087
01:01:29,200 --> 01:01:31,880
Speaker 3: and functioning. It's just the upper part of the brain

1088
01:01:31,920 --> 01:01:34,040
Speaker 3: that's been taken away. I might be wrong about that,

1089
01:01:34,080 --> 01:01:35,200
Speaker 3: but that's what I recall.

1090
01:01:35,440 --> 01:01:39,280
Speaker 2: Now. In animals, blood vessel reattachment has been achieved, but

1091
01:01:39,360 --> 01:01:43,160
Speaker 2: a full human head reattachment would require a complete reattachment

1092
01:01:43,200 --> 01:01:48,280
Speaker 2: of vessels, muscles, et cetera, everything that's involved in transplanting

1093
01:01:48,280 --> 01:01:52,760
Speaker 2: a hand, but also the spinal cord as well, and

1094
01:01:52,840 --> 01:01:54,640
Speaker 2: we'd need to be able to sustain the head while

1095
01:01:54,640 --> 01:01:57,680
Speaker 2: all of this was happening. You know, again, how do

1096
01:01:57,720 --> 01:02:01,200
Speaker 2: we keep ahead alive after it is removed from the body,

1097
01:02:01,840 --> 01:02:03,560
Speaker 2: and then how would we keep it alive long enough

1098
01:02:03,560 --> 01:02:07,400
Speaker 2: to get it reattached. So so yeah, we're simply not

1099
01:02:07,520 --> 01:02:10,440
Speaker 2: there yet in terms of reattaching a head to a body,

1100
01:02:10,640 --> 01:02:13,160
Speaker 2: though though I love the way that it is real.

1101
01:02:13,280 --> 01:02:15,840
Speaker 2: It is created by Gogel in the film, you know,

1102
01:02:16,280 --> 01:02:20,120
Speaker 2: the idea of this brace being used to achieve a

1103
01:02:20,200 --> 01:02:24,720
Speaker 2: kind of like rough head transplantation, like he seems to

1104
01:02:24,880 --> 01:02:28,320
Speaker 2: have approached it with it, you know, the thoughtful mind like, oh, well,

1105
01:02:28,320 --> 01:02:30,120
Speaker 2: this would be a very difficult thing to pull off.

1106
01:02:30,360 --> 01:02:35,040
Speaker 2: The results would not be pleasant. How would I depict

1107
01:02:35,080 --> 01:02:36,840
Speaker 2: this to Orlock?

1108
01:02:37,160 --> 01:02:40,320
Speaker 3: I think I just noticed that this entire episode, we've

1109
01:02:40,360 --> 01:02:43,120
Speaker 3: been saying all these names in different ways multiple times.

1110
01:02:43,160 --> 01:02:45,800
Speaker 3: I think I've been saying Gogall and Gogall, and I've

1111
01:02:45,800 --> 01:02:48,360
Speaker 3: been saying or Lock and or Lock, and I really

1112
01:02:48,360 --> 01:02:50,800
Speaker 3: don't know which one is right at this point. As

1113
01:02:50,840 --> 01:02:54,360
Speaker 3: for Orlock, isn't that the name of the vampire in Nosferatu?

1114
01:02:54,880 --> 01:02:55,960
Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, count Orlock?

1115
01:02:56,360 --> 01:02:58,200
Speaker 3: It is Max Shrek.

1116
01:02:58,280 --> 01:03:00,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I'm not sure. Say is it's felt same?

1117
01:03:01,160 --> 01:03:03,400
Speaker 3: No? I don't think so. I think this spell hey

1118
01:03:03,560 --> 01:03:03,920
Speaker 3: in't it?

1119
01:03:04,480 --> 01:03:06,880
Speaker 2: Yeah? And of course I think I think Orlock was

1120
01:03:07,120 --> 01:03:09,080
Speaker 2: that they chose that name well because they didn't have

1121
01:03:09,080 --> 01:03:10,840
Speaker 2: the rights to Dracula, so they're like, all right, come

1122
01:03:10,880 --> 01:03:11,560
Speaker 2: up with something else.

1123
01:03:12,080 --> 01:03:16,680
Speaker 3: They should have used Alu card or doctor Acula in

1124
01:03:16,760 --> 01:03:17,560
Speaker 3: the Doctor.

1125
01:03:18,840 --> 01:03:19,520
Speaker 2: That would have been good.

1126
01:03:19,840 --> 01:03:22,200
Speaker 3: So there's another thing I wanted to talk about in

1127
01:03:22,240 --> 01:03:24,200
Speaker 3: this movie that I thought was interesting is that it

1128
01:03:24,600 --> 01:03:29,240
Speaker 3: features a couple of poems that are by two different Brownings,

1129
01:03:29,560 --> 01:03:33,680
Speaker 3: that there are parts of the movie where Gogall quotes poetry.

1130
01:03:34,200 --> 01:03:37,439
Speaker 3: The first I noticed was there's a part where he's

1131
01:03:37,480 --> 01:03:41,680
Speaker 3: I think he's pining for Yvonne, you know, he's he's

1132
01:03:41,680 --> 01:03:46,520
Speaker 3: feeling despondent because he loves her and she's married to another.

1133
01:03:47,080 --> 01:03:50,840
Speaker 3: And he says he starts reading a quote from a book.

1134
01:03:51,000 --> 01:03:52,960
Speaker 3: It sounded familiar to me, and I looked it up,

1135
01:03:53,000 --> 01:03:55,960
Speaker 3: and I think the quote is from a poem by

1136
01:03:56,040 --> 01:04:00,880
Speaker 3: Elizabeth Barrett Browning, the English poet Sonnets from the Puguese Seven.

1137
01:04:01,280 --> 01:04:03,480
Speaker 3: It's often known by its first line, which is the

1138
01:04:03,480 --> 01:04:05,920
Speaker 3: face of all the world has changed, I think, And

1139
01:04:05,960 --> 01:04:09,240
Speaker 3: the lines are like the face of all the world

1140
01:04:09,240 --> 01:04:12,120
Speaker 3: has changed, I think, since first I heard the footsteps

1141
01:04:12,120 --> 01:04:15,440
Speaker 3: of the soul move still, Oh, still beside me, as

1142
01:04:15,480 --> 01:04:18,600
Speaker 3: they stole betwixt me and the dreadful outer brink of

1143
01:04:18,720 --> 01:04:22,080
Speaker 3: obvious death, where I, who thought to sink, was caught

1144
01:04:22,160 --> 01:04:24,960
Speaker 3: up into love and taught the whole of life in

1145
01:04:25,000 --> 01:04:27,800
Speaker 3: a new rhythm. And it goes on from there. But

1146
01:04:27,840 --> 01:04:30,880
Speaker 3: that's the part that has what he reads. And then

1147
01:04:31,040 --> 01:04:33,840
Speaker 3: later in the film I thought this was pretty interesting.

1148
01:04:33,880 --> 01:04:37,040
Speaker 3: On the screenwriter's part, he quotes a poem when he

1149
01:04:37,160 --> 01:04:41,240
Speaker 3: is trying to murder Yvonne. He starts to strangle her

1150
01:04:41,280 --> 01:04:44,280
Speaker 3: with the braids of her own hair, and as he's

1151
01:04:44,360 --> 01:04:46,960
Speaker 3: leaning over Francis Drake, I think she has fainted at

1152
01:04:46,960 --> 01:04:50,560
Speaker 3: this point, and he quotes from the poem Porphyria's Lover

1153
01:04:51,240 --> 01:04:55,520
Speaker 3: by Elizabeth Barrett Browning's husband, the poet Robert Browning. And

1154
01:04:55,600 --> 01:04:57,400
Speaker 3: this is a line. You may have read this poem

1155
01:04:57,400 --> 01:05:01,520
Speaker 3: in school. It's pretty famous it the poem, the speaker

1156
01:05:01,680 --> 01:05:04,680
Speaker 3: is talking about a murder he committed, having murdered his lover,

1157
01:05:05,200 --> 01:05:07,440
Speaker 3: and he says, I found a thing to do, and

1158
01:05:07,520 --> 01:05:10,560
Speaker 3: all her hair in one long yellow string. I wound

1159
01:05:10,920 --> 01:05:14,400
Speaker 3: three times her little throat around and strangled her. No

1160
01:05:14,520 --> 01:05:17,720
Speaker 3: pain felt she I am quite sure she felt no pain.

1161
01:05:18,120 --> 01:05:21,520
Speaker 3: As a shut bud that holds a bee, I warily

1162
01:05:21,560 --> 01:05:25,520
Speaker 3: opened her lids again, laughed the blue eyes without a stain.

1163
01:05:26,800 --> 01:05:29,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is a part of just that. I mean,

1164
01:05:29,680 --> 01:05:32,120
Speaker 2: the whole movie is wonderful, where this last stretch is

1165
01:05:32,200 --> 01:05:36,640
Speaker 2: just excellent, and where he recites this poem while he's

1166
01:05:36,680 --> 01:05:41,200
Speaker 2: going to strangle her while she's unconscious, as as Oorlock,

1167
01:05:41,880 --> 01:05:43,800
Speaker 2: Stephen Orlock and the others are trying to beat down

1168
01:05:43,840 --> 01:05:44,160
Speaker 2: the door.

1169
01:05:45,440 --> 01:05:47,919
Speaker 3: But then I guess Gogaula is undone by his own work.

1170
01:05:47,960 --> 01:05:51,320
Speaker 3: In addition to becoming an evil murderer, he also made

1171
01:05:51,320 --> 01:05:54,240
Speaker 3: the mistake of giving Stephen Orlock hands that are really

1172
01:05:54,280 --> 01:05:58,600
Speaker 3: good at killing from a distance. Yeah right, So Orlac

1173
01:05:58,680 --> 01:06:01,560
Speaker 3: sort of reaches through the the grate in the door

1174
01:06:01,640 --> 01:06:04,080
Speaker 3: and throws a knife and sticks it in, go galls back,

1175
01:06:04,160 --> 01:06:06,680
Speaker 3: and then I don't get I guess somehow right after

1176
01:06:06,680 --> 01:06:09,120
Speaker 3: that they get through the door anyway, you know.

1177
01:06:09,200 --> 01:06:12,080
Speaker 2: It also drives home why the Hands of Warlock isn't

1178
01:06:12,080 --> 01:06:14,440
Speaker 2: a good title for this ether, because it's basically the

1179
01:06:14,480 --> 01:06:17,440
Speaker 2: hands of Ralloh, that's what That's what's in the film.

1180
01:06:17,720 --> 01:06:20,560
Speaker 2: The Hands of Warlock are lost pretty early on unless

1181
01:06:20,560 --> 01:06:23,360
Speaker 2: you're getting deep and wondering about like who owns the hands?

1182
01:06:23,440 --> 01:06:26,480
Speaker 2: I don't know. But in the end, also, it is

1183
01:06:26,520 --> 01:06:29,960
Speaker 2: Mad Love. It is about mad characters going mad and

1184
01:06:31,200 --> 01:06:33,120
Speaker 2: trying to figure out how love works.

1185
01:06:33,680 --> 01:06:36,040
Speaker 3: So there is a thing I noticed about this movie

1186
01:06:36,080 --> 01:06:40,520
Speaker 3: as it was on Amazon Prime. Amazon declares this film

1187
01:06:40,560 --> 01:06:44,280
Speaker 3: to be rated PG thirteen, and I was like, how

1188
01:06:44,320 --> 01:06:48,240
Speaker 3: did Mad Love end up rated PG thirteen when movie

1189
01:06:48,320 --> 01:06:51,000
Speaker 3: ratings had not been invented yet? Or I don't think

1190
01:06:51,000 --> 01:06:52,960
Speaker 3: there were any kinds of ratings. If there were, they

1191
01:06:53,000 --> 01:06:55,680
Speaker 3: weren't the system we have now, and certainly not the

1192
01:06:55,720 --> 01:06:59,400
Speaker 3: PG thirteen rating, which was not invented till the nineteen eighties.

1193
01:06:59,440 --> 01:07:02,040
Speaker 3: I looked it up. The first PG thirteen film was

1194
01:07:02,160 --> 01:07:02,960
Speaker 3: Red Dawn.

1195
01:07:04,920 --> 01:07:07,600
Speaker 2: They must have My only guess here is they must

1196
01:07:07,600 --> 01:07:10,760
Speaker 2: have accidentally pulled the rating off of nineteen ninety five's

1197
01:07:10,760 --> 01:07:14,240
Speaker 2: Mad Love. That we mentioned earlier unrelated film, but that

1198
01:07:14,480 --> 01:07:17,720
Speaker 2: was rated PG thirteen. In the air in which that

1199
01:07:17,800 --> 01:07:20,560
Speaker 2: rating actually existed, it would be horrible.

1200
01:07:20,600 --> 01:07:22,960
Speaker 3: I think if they are going back in applying MPAA

1201
01:07:23,160 --> 01:07:27,840
Speaker 3: ratings to like pre code movies, yeah, don't even try.

1202
01:07:29,240 --> 01:07:31,120
Speaker 2: Now. You might be wondering, well, where can I watch

1203
01:07:31,160 --> 01:07:34,960
Speaker 2: Mad Love? We already mentioned Checking it out on Amazon Prime,

1204
01:07:35,160 --> 01:07:38,480
Speaker 2: I found that you can pretty much rent or buy

1205
01:07:38,640 --> 01:07:41,919
Speaker 2: digitally Mad Love anywhere that you would rent or buy

1206
01:07:41,920 --> 01:07:45,000
Speaker 2: a movie. You can also find it on DVD, sometimes

1207
01:07:45,360 --> 01:07:49,760
Speaker 2: thrown unlovingly into a multi pack alongside far more forgotten

1208
01:07:49,800 --> 01:07:52,320
Speaker 2: films of the era. I watched it on a nice

1209
01:07:52,440 --> 01:07:55,400
Speaker 2: DVD edition that I rented from Video Drum here in Atlanta.

1210
01:07:55,440 --> 01:07:57,960
Speaker 2: They had a nice historical commentary track. I mean, it

1211
01:07:58,000 --> 01:08:01,280
Speaker 2: was clearly somebody sort of reading no about the film,

1212
01:08:01,880 --> 01:08:03,800
Speaker 2: but it was quite interesting. I think this was from

1213
01:08:03,840 --> 01:08:05,680
Speaker 2: the Legends of Horror box set.

1214
01:08:06,600 --> 01:08:07,120
Speaker 3: Interesting.

1215
01:08:07,480 --> 01:08:09,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, as far as I know, there's not a BLU

1216
01:08:09,720 --> 01:08:11,320
Speaker 2: ray of this film, at least not yet.

1217
01:08:11,720 --> 01:08:14,800
Speaker 3: I didn't see one. Okay, one last question before we

1218
01:08:14,840 --> 01:08:17,360
Speaker 3: wrap it up, what does Stephen Orlak do the rest

1219
01:08:17,400 --> 01:08:19,519
Speaker 3: of his life? So he maybe he just can't play

1220
01:08:19,520 --> 01:08:22,360
Speaker 3: piano ever again, but he's good at throwing knives? Does

1221
01:08:22,400 --> 01:08:25,600
Speaker 3: that become his new profession? Like they're reunited at the end,

1222
01:08:25,760 --> 01:08:29,280
Speaker 3: Yvonne is saved, they embrace. Oh we're all right now,

1223
01:08:29,520 --> 01:08:31,479
Speaker 3: And I guess I will enter my life in the

1224
01:08:31,520 --> 01:08:32,839
Speaker 3: circus as a knife thrower.

1225
01:08:33,520 --> 01:08:35,760
Speaker 2: Well, you know, I so identified with doctor Gogel that

1226
01:08:36,439 --> 01:08:37,760
Speaker 2: after he was dead, I was just kind of like,

1227
01:08:37,800 --> 01:08:41,400
Speaker 2: all right, it doesn't matter, you know, But I did

1228
01:08:41,439 --> 01:08:43,559
Speaker 2: think about it more after you brought it up. And yeah,

1229
01:08:43,600 --> 01:08:46,639
Speaker 2: I guess I imagine him taking up knife throwing, professional

1230
01:08:46,720 --> 01:08:50,280
Speaker 2: knife throwing and that becomes like his new traveling act.

1231
01:08:50,360 --> 01:08:53,360
Speaker 2: And maybe she gets to go back into theater, and

1232
01:08:54,160 --> 01:08:57,360
Speaker 2: you know, because now it's like his profession is more

1233
01:08:57,360 --> 01:09:00,640
Speaker 2: aligned with hers. Right, maybe they worked again. They do

1234
01:09:00,680 --> 01:09:01,400
Speaker 2: a show together.

1235
01:09:01,560 --> 01:09:04,040
Speaker 3: Okay, I see, Yeah, they do a stage show where

1236
01:09:04,080 --> 01:09:07,719
Speaker 3: he throws knives and she screams while the knives are thrown.

1237
01:09:08,280 --> 01:09:14,000
Speaker 2: The fabulous Oarlocks Warlocks coming to a theater tent near you.

1238
01:09:14,280 --> 01:09:17,280
Speaker 3: I love it. Okay, we wrap up here.

1239
01:09:18,080 --> 01:09:20,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's go ahead and wrap up this edition of

1240
01:09:20,840 --> 01:09:24,320
Speaker 2: Weird House Cinema. Obviously, we'd love to hear from everybody

1241
01:09:24,360 --> 01:09:28,640
Speaker 2: out there. Did you enjoy Mad Love. If you have,

1242
01:09:28,640 --> 01:09:29,880
Speaker 2: you watched it? What do you think of it? Do

1243
01:09:29,880 --> 01:09:31,360
Speaker 2: you agree with this? Disagree with this? Do you have

1244
01:09:31,360 --> 01:09:34,559
Speaker 2: additional insights that we may have missed? Let us know.

1245
01:09:34,600 --> 01:09:36,600
Speaker 2: We'd also love to hear from you. Do you do

1246
01:09:36,600 --> 01:09:38,320
Speaker 2: you feel like this is a good use of our

1247
01:09:38,360 --> 01:09:41,280
Speaker 2: time producing episodes of Weird House Cinema.

1248
01:09:41,320 --> 01:09:42,839
Speaker 3: We've heard both ways so far.

1249
01:09:43,160 --> 01:09:46,400
Speaker 2: Have we? Maybe I'm just I'm blind to the criticism,

1250
01:09:46,400 --> 01:09:48,280
Speaker 2: but I haven't noticed anybody saying not to.

1251
01:09:48,360 --> 01:09:51,160
Speaker 3: Well, I don't know. We heard from one person who

1252
01:09:51,160 --> 01:09:52,639
Speaker 3: said this was not for them, but.

1253
01:09:52,800 --> 01:09:55,439
Speaker 2: Okay, well then that's understandable. Is this show? Is this?

1254
01:09:55,840 --> 01:09:59,000
Speaker 2: If the Friday night Weird House Cinema isn't for you,

1255
01:09:59,560 --> 01:10:02,679
Speaker 2: just stick to Stuff to Blow your Mind. Our feelings

1256
01:10:02,680 --> 01:10:04,960
Speaker 2: will not be hurt. But let us know either way.

1257
01:10:05,000 --> 01:10:09,760
Speaker 2: We're excited to hear from our listeners. In the meantime,

1258
01:10:09,840 --> 01:10:11,639
Speaker 2: if you want to check out other episodes of Stuff

1259
01:10:11,640 --> 01:10:15,080
Speaker 2: to Blow your Mind, you can find us wherever you

1260
01:10:15,120 --> 01:10:18,040
Speaker 2: get your podcasts. Again, Tuesdays and Thursdays you get the

1261
01:10:18,320 --> 01:10:21,920
Speaker 2: core episodes, and then on Fridays were dishing out some

1262
01:10:21,960 --> 01:10:24,519
Speaker 2: Weird House Cinema. If you want to find us really quickly.

1263
01:10:24,560 --> 01:10:25,920
Speaker 2: You can just go to stuff to Blow your Mind

1264
01:10:25,960 --> 01:10:28,600
Speaker 2: dot com. That will shoot you over to the iHeart

1265
01:10:28,920 --> 01:10:31,120
Speaker 2: page for our show. There's a button on there for

1266
01:10:31,200 --> 01:10:33,360
Speaker 2: a store. You can go there if you want to

1267
01:10:33,360 --> 01:10:36,519
Speaker 2: buy a T shirt or a sticker with some sort

1268
01:10:36,560 --> 01:10:39,679
Speaker 2: of design or our logo on it. I will say

1269
01:10:39,680 --> 01:10:42,759
Speaker 2: we have a new shirt design in there by Joe Mruck,

1270
01:10:43,000 --> 01:10:46,760
Speaker 2: a listener of the show who's also a self employed illustrator.

1271
01:10:47,400 --> 01:10:49,400
Speaker 2: You can find out more about his work at red

1272
01:10:49,439 --> 01:10:52,040
Speaker 2: Buffalo dot org. But he created this wonderful shirt that's

1273
01:10:52,439 --> 01:10:57,040
Speaker 2: a Pandora motif. Pandora opening this box of interesting, challenging

1274
01:10:57,080 --> 01:11:01,400
Speaker 2: and dangerous ideas. There is show topics swirling around her

1275
01:11:02,160 --> 01:11:04,360
Speaker 2: beautiful design. You meet on a shirt or a sticker

1276
01:11:04,479 --> 01:11:07,040
Speaker 2: or a you know, a poster type thing. So go

1277
01:11:07,120 --> 01:11:08,679
Speaker 2: check that out. You can just click on the store

1278
01:11:08,720 --> 01:11:10,800
Speaker 2: button and I'll take you right to it.

1279
01:11:11,080 --> 01:11:14,760
Speaker 3: Maybe we'll get a sausage man shirt next. We can

1280
01:11:14,800 --> 01:11:17,799
Speaker 3: only only some with it with sausage Man and and

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Speaker 3: and go goles oorlock together. I don't know, I don't know.

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Speaker 3: We'll figure it out, okay, anyway, huge thanks as always

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Speaker 3: to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you

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Speaker 3: would like to get in touch with us with feedback

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Speaker 3: on this episode or any other, suggest a topic for

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Speaker 3: the future, just to say hi, you can email us

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Speaker 3: at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind dot com.

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Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For

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Speaker 1: more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

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Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.