WEBVTT - Ep. 11: Bringing Home All the Pretty Horses

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<v Speaker 1>Simultaneous with the appearance of the United States in the

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<v Speaker 1>advance of its frontier westward to the Mississippi River, and

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<v Speaker 1>intriguing trade developed around vast herds of horses that had

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<v Speaker 1>become wild in the West, an animal economy that outlasted

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<v Speaker 1>the fur trade but collapsed in the nineteen twenties in

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<v Speaker 1>the face of modernity. I'm Dan Flores and this is

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<v Speaker 1>the American West, brought to you by Velvet Buck Wine,

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<v Speaker 1>where the hunt meets the harvest. A portion of each

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<v Speaker 1>bottle goes to support backcountry hunters and anglers. Limited supply

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<v Speaker 1>available at Velvetbuck Vineyards dot Com. Enjoy responsibly bringing home

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<v Speaker 1>all the pretty horses. In the summer of eighteen thirty four,

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<v Speaker 1>two years after his famous adventure painting the tribes of

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<v Speaker 1>the Missouri River and Northern Plains, artists George Catlan got

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<v Speaker 1>his first opportunity to portray the counterpoint world the southern

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<v Speaker 1>Plains of what is now western Oklahoma. Fate and luck

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<v Speaker 1>offered Catlan a singular chance to see firsthand the similarities

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<v Speaker 1>and differences between these two regions of the early nineteenth

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<v Speaker 1>century American West. On the Missouri, Catlan had traveled and

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<v Speaker 1>lived with fur traders from the big companies, and had

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<v Speaker 1>duly painted and mourned the great destruction then underway there

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<v Speaker 1>on the southern prairies. However, the artists saw relatively little

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<v Speaker 1>of the American economic engines that were destroying so many

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<v Speaker 1>ecologies in the northern West. On these southern prairies, it

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<v Speaker 1>was not fur bearers, but an altogether different animal that

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<v Speaker 1>caught his atte traveling in the vicinity of the Wichita

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<v Speaker 1>Mountains that summer of eighteen thirty four. This was how

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<v Speaker 1>he described his impressions. The tract of country over which

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<v Speaker 1>we passed is stocked not only with buffaloes, but with

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<v Speaker 1>numerous bands of wild horses, many of which we saw

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<v Speaker 1>every day Catlan went on. The wild horse of these

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<v Speaker 1>regions is a small but very powerful animal, with an

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<v Speaker 1>exceedingly prominent eye, sharp nose, high nostril, small feet, and

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<v Speaker 1>delicate leg, and undoubtedly have sprung from a stock introduced

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<v Speaker 1>by the Spaniards. No other denizen of the plains is

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<v Speaker 1>so wild and so sagacious as the horse Catlan rode.

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<v Speaker 1>So remarkably keen is their eye that they will generally

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<v Speaker 1>run at the site when they are a mild, distant,

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<v Speaker 1>and when in motion, will seldom stop short of three

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<v Speaker 1>or four miles. Like many others, the artists was struck

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<v Speaker 1>with the beauty of the horse in its wild state.

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<v Speaker 1>Some were milk white, some jet black, others were sorrel

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<v Speaker 1>and bay and cream color, and many were an iron gray,

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<v Speaker 1>and others were pied, containing a variety of colors on

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<v Speaker 1>the same animal. Their manes were profuse and hanging in

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<v Speaker 1>the wildest confusion over their necks and faces, and their

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<v Speaker 1>long tails swept the ground interestingly. At almost the same

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<v Speaker 1>point in time, back in the horse country of Kentucky,

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<v Speaker 1>John James Audubon, Catlan's fellow painter, wrote that he'd become

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<v Speaker 1>acquainted with a man who had just returned from the

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<v Speaker 1>country in the neighborhood of the headwaters of the Arkansas River,

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<v Speaker 1>where he'd obtained from the O Sages a recently captured

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<v Speaker 1>four year old wild horse named Barrow. While the little

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<v Speaker 1>horse was by no means handsome, as Ottoman said, and

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<v Speaker 1>had cost only thirty five dollars in trade goods, Ottobon

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<v Speaker 1>was intrigued enough to try him out. He proved a delight.

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<v Speaker 1>He had a sweet gait that covered forty miles a day.

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<v Speaker 1>He leapt over woodland logs as lightly as an elk,

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<v Speaker 1>was cautious, but a quick study in new situations, and

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<v Speaker 1>strong and fearless when coach to swim the Ohio River.

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<v Speaker 1>He was steady when birds flushed, and Audobon shot them

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<v Speaker 1>from the saddle to top. All he left a superb

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<v Speaker 1>three hundred dollars horse in the dust. Audoban quickly bought

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<v Speaker 1>barrel for fifty dollars silver, and, gloating over his discovery,

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<v Speaker 1>concluded that the importation of horses of this kind from

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<v Speaker 1>the Western prairies might improve our breeds generally. With an

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<v Speaker 1>audition like barrows, one is tempted to say, no kidding.

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<v Speaker 1>But what intrigues me most about Cantlon's and Audobon's wild

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<v Speaker 1>horse epiphanies is that they seemed almost clueless about a

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<v Speaker 1>phenomenon that had been underway in the West for almost

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<v Speaker 1>two centuries. Simultaneous with the evolution of the fur trade

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<v Speaker 1>in the northern West, the wild horse herds of the

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<v Speaker 1>Great Plains had generated an economy of capture in trade

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<v Speaker 1>that had transformed the native world. It had dominated much

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<v Speaker 1>of the Western trade. In European settlements from Louisiana to

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<v Speaker 1>California since the seventeen eighties, and wild horses from herbs

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<v Speaker 1>like those Catlan saw had been driven up the Natchez

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<v Speaker 1>Trace to markets in Kentucky and the South at least

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<v Speaker 1>since seventeen ninety. That neither of these artists seemed aware

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<v Speaker 1>of this speaks volumes about the underground character of the

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<v Speaker 1>early horse trade in the West, which was never a

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<v Speaker 1>corporate venture like the fur trade, but usually carried out

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<v Speaker 1>by private, independent mustangers. That word an English garbling of

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<v Speaker 1>the Spanish mestanio. The presence of wild horses in the

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<v Speaker 1>West first drew the attention of most Americans with Louisiana purchase.

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<v Speaker 1>By then, wild horses had been running free in the

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<v Speaker 1>California valleys, in the deserts of the Southwest, and especially

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<v Speaker 1>on the Great Plains for many decades, But as was

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<v Speaker 1>true of so many aspects of the West, it was

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<v Speaker 1>Thomas Jefferson, during the years when he was serving as

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<v Speaker 1>Vice President in the Adams administration, who was the first

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<v Speaker 1>American to understand that horses had become a part of

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<v Speaker 1>the natural history and economy of the West. In his

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<v Speaker 1>conversations about the West, with his informants. In seventeen ninety eight,

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<v Speaker 1>Jefferson began to hear stories about an intriguing individual known

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<v Speaker 1>as the Mexican Traveler. The Traveler's real name was Philip Nolan,

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<v Speaker 1>and he was an American adventurer who Jefferson discovered had

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<v Speaker 1>journeyed numerous times into the unknown Southwest, returning driving herds

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<v Speaker 1>of captured and traded horses into Louisiana and then up

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<v Speaker 1>the Natchezt Trace to the horse markets of Kentucky. Jefferson

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<v Speaker 1>was fascinated. He wanted to know more. The image that

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<v Speaker 1>emerges from his queries is of a shadowy character, a literate, athletic,

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<v Speaker 1>and adventurous young man who was confident enough in his

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<v Speaker 1>abilities to attempt things no one else had tried. The

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<v Speaker 1>Mississippi scientist, Sir William Dunbar knew Nolan, and he told

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<v Speaker 1>Jefferson he thought the young man lacked sufficient education and

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<v Speaker 1>was flawed by eccentricities many and great, as Dunbar put it. Nevertheless,

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<v Speaker 1>he added, Nolan was not destitute of romantic principles of honor,

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<v Speaker 1>united to the highest personal courage. Other informant, a lawyer

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<v Speaker 1>in New Orleans, told Jefferson that, in his opinion, Nolan

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<v Speaker 1>was an extraordinary character, one whom nature seems to have

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<v Speaker 1>formed for enterprises at which the rest of mankind are incapable.

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<v Speaker 1>As early as seventeen ninety, Jefferson learned, when Nolan was

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<v Speaker 1>barely twenty, he had embarked on a two year journey

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<v Speaker 1>into the West, ultimately meeting and traveling with Wichitas and Comanches,

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<v Speaker 1>and giving those tough appraisers of human nature a quite

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<v Speaker 1>favorable early impression of Americans. On this trip, Nolan apparently

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<v Speaker 1>journeyed all the way to New Mexico, meanwhile learning that

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<v Speaker 1>the numerous Southern Plains tribes were dissatisfied with Spanish trade

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<v Speaker 1>and hoped to replace their former trade partners the French,

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<v Speaker 1>with a new source of guns and European goods. The

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<v Speaker 1>Osages from farther east were enemies of these Western groups,

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<v Speaker 1>and making every effort to block traders from Saint Louis

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<v Speaker 1>from contacting the tribes of the Deep Plains. Nolan had

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<v Speaker 1>in mind addressing that opening from a different direction. What

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<v Speaker 1>really caused Jefferson's attention, though, was that Nolan had not

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<v Speaker 1>returned from the West with the usual Indian processed firs.

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<v Speaker 1>It was horses he had brought back from these forays,

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<v Speaker 1>some of them wild ones that he and his associates

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<v Speaker 1>had captured. Nolan himself told his friends that he found

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<v Speaker 1>the savage life less praising in practice than speculation. I

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<v Speaker 1>could not indianfy my heart, he said. But he had

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<v Speaker 1>gone on a second expedition into the Deep Plains in

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<v Speaker 1>seventeen ninety four, and a third one in seventeen ninety six.

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<v Speaker 1>He returned with two hundred and fifty horses in seventeen

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<v Speaker 1>ninety six drove them to Frankfurt, Connecticut, and that had

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<v Speaker 1>brought Nolan and his horses to the attention of important

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<v Speaker 1>people who now invested in him. So, in seventeen ninety seven,

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<v Speaker 1>packing seven thousand dollars worth of trade goods and with

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<v Speaker 1>what he said were twelve good rifles and but one coward,

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<v Speaker 1>he launched a fourth expedition. When he returned in seventeen

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<v Speaker 1>ninety eight, he was driving a herd, some estimated at

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<v Speaker 1>twenty five hundred animals, some of which brought one hundred

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<v Speaker 1>and fifty dollars a piece in Kentucky. At this point

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<v Speaker 1>in Nolan's career, he found a letter awaiting him, requesting

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<v Speaker 1>natural history information on Western horses at the only moment

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<v Speaker 1>in the age of the world, it read when the

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<v Speaker 1>horse might be studied in its wild state. Those words

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<v Speaker 1>were from Vice President Thomas Jefferson, who wanted badly to

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<v Speaker 1>have a conversation with Nolan about the West. So Jefferson

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<v Speaker 1>wrote a follow up letter, telling Nolan he very much

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<v Speaker 1>wanted to purchase one of those Western horses, which I

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<v Speaker 1>am told are so remarkable for the singularity and beauty

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<v Speaker 1>of their colors and forms. According to several informants, young

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<v Speaker 1>Nolan and an inhabitant of the Western country, a master

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<v Speaker 1>of the fascinating language of Indian hand signs, who was

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<v Speaker 1>probably the same Joseph Talapoon who would go west with

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<v Speaker 1>Anthony Glass, departed for Virginia in eighteen hundred with a

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<v Speaker 1>fine paint stallion for Jefferson. Somehow, though neither Nolan nor

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<v Speaker 1>the paint horse ever got to Monticello. I'm tempted to

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<v Speaker 1>guess that somewhere along the way Nolan lost jefferson stallion

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<v Speaker 1>on a bet or in a game of chance. So

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<v Speaker 1>the West's Mexican traveler stood up the man about to

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<v Speaker 1>be elected the third president of the United States. Nolan

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<v Speaker 1>was now in preparation for a fifth and his fate

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<v Speaker 1>would have it final expedition to the Although he claimed

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<v Speaker 1>that I have long been tired of wild horses, the

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<v Speaker 1>money was just too good. This time he took two

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<v Speaker 1>dozen men and a large quantity of goods, but by

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<v Speaker 1>now Spanish officials had grown increasingly alarmed at Nolan's trips.

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<v Speaker 1>In the seventeen eighties, Spain had proclaimed wild horses and

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<v Speaker 1>her territories government property, and had placed at tax on

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<v Speaker 1>captured animals. That meant that any horses Nolan captured or

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<v Speaker 1>traded for would be illegal contraband. Yet by December of

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<v Speaker 1>eighteen hundred, the party was far out on the southern

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<v Speaker 1>plains and what seems to have been Nolan's favorite mustanging country,

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<v Speaker 1>the Grand Prairie, southwest of today's Fort Worth. There they

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<v Speaker 1>built corrals and started capturing wild bands, but in March

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<v Speaker 1>of eighteen oh one, Indian scouts for a Spanish force

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<v Speaker 1>sent out to arrest Nolan located them. When Nolan refused

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<v Speaker 1>to surrender, the Spaniards attacked, killing Nolan and capturing more

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<v Speaker 1>than a dozen of his men. At the age of

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<v Speaker 1>thirty one the Mexican travelers pre Lewis and clark adventures

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<v Speaker 1>in the West were over. Thomas Jefferson never got to

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<v Speaker 1>understand what deep time science and history have now told

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<v Speaker 1>us about the West's wild horses. It's a story that

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<v Speaker 1>commences with an irony. Old worlders understood that their ancestors

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<v Speaker 1>had brought the horse to the Americas, and that, after

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<v Speaker 1>initial fear of it, indigenous peoples in both North and

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<v Speaker 1>South America had adopted the animal into their lives, where

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<v Speaker 1>it had revolutionized their cultures. Yet in the depths of

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<v Speaker 1>time lay a surprising story. Horses are actually evolutionary natives

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<v Speaker 1>of North America. Their ancestors had begun their into the

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<v Speaker 1>modern horse on this continent fifty seven million years earlier,

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<v Speaker 1>after a vast presence where horses were found from Alaska

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<v Speaker 1>to Florida. The irony deepened profoundly by eight thousand years ago,

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<v Speaker 1>horses so similar to the modern version that palaeontologists have

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<v Speaker 1>difficulty telling them apart unaccountably when extinct throughout the Americas. Meanwhile,

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<v Speaker 1>the horses that had migrated from America into Africa, Asia,

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<v Speaker 1>and Europe survived to become domesticated by humans. Four to

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<v Speaker 1>six thousand years ago. So the barb horses that danced

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<v Speaker 1>and nickered beneath the Spaniards were ancient American horses, their

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<v Speaker 1>zebra like legs and dorsal backstripes still intact. Now they

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<v Speaker 1>had returned to their evolutionary homeland, except it was a

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<v Speaker 1>homeland with many of their Pleistocene predators gone. This, this

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<v Speaker 1>big history, is why horses were so successful in going

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<v Speaker 1>wild in the West. By the sixteen fifties, the Southwest

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<v Speaker 1>Native peoples were riding horses into the very landscapes that

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<v Speaker 1>had shaped horses hoofs, teeth, and behavioral patterns for millions

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<v Speaker 1>of years. When the Pueblo Indians sixteen eighty revolt liberated

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<v Speaker 1>Spanish livestock in and around Santa Fe, horses and horse

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<v Speaker 1>culture famously made their way decade by decade to tribes

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<v Speaker 1>northward up the Rockies. But in the chaos, many animals

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<v Speaker 1>also ran loose into the country. Meanwhile, in Texas, the

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<v Speaker 1>Spanish Franciscans often turned surplus mission livestock out into the wild,

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<v Speaker 1>so by seventeen fifteen, from Texas to New Mexico, the

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<v Speaker 1>whole country featured wild horses. Rapidly replicating Pleistocene America. Three

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<v Speaker 1>quarters of a century later, the same fine dominon was

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<v Speaker 1>underway in California. By the time Americans were eyeing the West,

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<v Speaker 1>across the region's southern latitudes, wild horse herds had become enormous.

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<v Speaker 1>A Spanish bishop in Texas road in eighteen oh five

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<v Speaker 1>that everywhere he traveled there were great herds of horses

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<v Speaker 1>and mares found close to the roads, and herds of

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<v Speaker 1>four to six thousand by eighteen hundred. Residents of California's

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<v Speaker 1>missions and presidios, having had virtually no horses in the

0:16:33.520 --> 0:16:38.320
<v Speaker 1>seventeen seventies, regarded escaped horses in the surrounding countryside as

0:16:38.360 --> 0:16:41.280
<v Speaker 1>such threats to grass and water that they shot them

0:16:41.320 --> 0:16:46.800
<v Speaker 1>on sight. On the Great Plains, wildhorses now struck observers

0:16:47.080 --> 0:16:51.600
<v Speaker 1>as an iconic experience of the region. One traveler was

0:16:51.680 --> 0:16:55.000
<v Speaker 1>stunned to see that, as he put it, the prairie

0:16:55.080 --> 0:16:59.240
<v Speaker 1>near the horizon seemed to be moving with long undulations,

0:16:59.480 --> 0:17:02.920
<v Speaker 1>like the way waves of an ocean. Then realized that

0:17:02.960 --> 0:17:07.480
<v Speaker 1>the ocean waves were actually herds of mustangs blanketing the

0:17:07.680 --> 0:17:11.960
<v Speaker 1>entire prairie. Another wrote that as far as the eye

0:17:11.960 --> 0:17:15.280
<v Speaker 1>could extend, nothing over the dead level prairie was visible

0:17:15.359 --> 0:17:18.800
<v Speaker 1>except the dense mass of horses, and the trampling of

0:17:18.840 --> 0:17:21.879
<v Speaker 1>their hoofs sounded like the roar of the surf on

0:17:21.920 --> 0:17:26.800
<v Speaker 1>a rocky coast. Wandering herds of wild horses are so numerous.

0:17:27.000 --> 0:17:31.040
<v Speaker 1>Another wrote that the land is covered with paths, making

0:17:31.080 --> 0:17:41.280
<v Speaker 1>it appear the most populated place in the world. In Pleisscene, America,

0:17:41.400 --> 0:17:44.000
<v Speaker 1>horses had sometimes made up as much as twenty five

0:17:44.080 --> 0:17:47.320
<v Speaker 1>percent of the biomass of grazing animals, and by the

0:17:47.359 --> 0:17:50.640
<v Speaker 1>eighteen hundreds, the wild bands were heading in that direction.

0:17:51.520 --> 0:17:54.760
<v Speaker 1>Writer J. Frank Doby once guessed that by eighteen hundred

0:17:55.040 --> 0:17:58.280
<v Speaker 1>there were two million wild horses in the West, a

0:17:58.400 --> 0:18:01.400
<v Speaker 1>million of them on the prairie south of the Arkansas River.

0:18:02.560 --> 0:18:05.679
<v Speaker 1>On the Southern Plains, a million wild horses would have

0:18:05.720 --> 0:18:10.760
<v Speaker 1>been about twelve percent of bison numbers. So from seed

0:18:10.800 --> 0:18:14.800
<v Speaker 1>herds not just in New Mexico and Texas, but California,

0:18:15.119 --> 0:18:20.040
<v Speaker 1>the Columbia Plateau, and Wyoming's Red Desert, wild horses were

0:18:20.080 --> 0:18:25.320
<v Speaker 1>spreading out all over the West. The Southern Plains herds

0:18:25.440 --> 0:18:33.040
<v Speaker 1>drew Indian peoples from everywhere, bringing utes, Shoshonees, crows, Arapahos, Cheyennes, Lakotas,

0:18:33.280 --> 0:18:37.960
<v Speaker 1>even Blackfeet, and most famously Comanches to the horse country

0:18:38.000 --> 0:18:43.480
<v Speaker 1>below the Arkansas River, as with bison and beavers. Useful

0:18:43.520 --> 0:18:47.000
<v Speaker 1>animals and such enormous numbers filled the human mind with

0:18:47.119 --> 0:18:52.560
<v Speaker 1>thoughts of acquisition, wealth and power, with thoughts, in other words,

0:18:52.680 --> 0:18:57.800
<v Speaker 1>of a potential economy. I've imagined this economy as a

0:18:57.840 --> 0:19:02.320
<v Speaker 1>great horse funnel which took hundreds of thousands of horses

0:19:02.359 --> 0:19:05.960
<v Speaker 1>from its flared in on the plains and then funneled

0:19:05.960 --> 0:19:10.760
<v Speaker 1>them to trade markets like Saint Louis, Nakotish, Natchez, and

0:19:10.880 --> 0:19:15.240
<v Speaker 1>New Orleans. The demand came from Americans on the homestead

0:19:15.320 --> 0:19:19.040
<v Speaker 1>or frontier, who needed animal powered energy to push westward

0:19:19.080 --> 0:19:22.800
<v Speaker 1>from the Appalachians to the Mississippi and beyond. As with

0:19:22.840 --> 0:19:26.480
<v Speaker 1>the fur trade farther north, the Native people began as

0:19:26.520 --> 0:19:30.280
<v Speaker 1>and remained major players in the trade, in good part

0:19:30.320 --> 0:19:33.000
<v Speaker 1>because the horse trade was based on a pre existing

0:19:33.160 --> 0:19:39.360
<v Speaker 1>native economy involving inner tribal exchange. From the start, horses

0:19:39.400 --> 0:19:42.720
<v Speaker 1>were such revolutionary agents of cultural change for Native people

0:19:43.000 --> 0:19:46.560
<v Speaker 1>that exchange of the animals became a central feature of

0:19:46.640 --> 0:19:51.440
<v Speaker 1>Western Indian life. There were annual horse fairs in places

0:19:51.480 --> 0:19:54.600
<v Speaker 1>like the Black Hills, and it fixed villages like those

0:19:54.880 --> 0:19:58.320
<v Speaker 1>of the Mandani Dotsas on the Missouri and the Wichitas

0:19:58.440 --> 0:20:03.240
<v Speaker 1>on the Red River. Even middleman groups emerged. The horse

0:20:03.320 --> 0:20:07.280
<v Speaker 1>trade even contributed to the breakup of the Cheyennes into

0:20:07.320 --> 0:20:12.119
<v Speaker 1>two geographic divisions, a northern one and a southern one

0:20:12.160 --> 0:20:16.000
<v Speaker 1>that became a central player in distributing horses northward up

0:20:16.040 --> 0:20:23.200
<v Speaker 1>the planes. The Comanches, another group drawn from the north

0:20:23.240 --> 0:20:28.240
<v Speaker 1>to the southern plains because of horses, literally reconceived themselves

0:20:28.520 --> 0:20:32.640
<v Speaker 1>in the context of horses and trade. They raided other

0:20:32.760 --> 0:20:37.560
<v Speaker 1>tribes and Spanish ranches for both horses and children, training

0:20:37.600 --> 0:20:41.440
<v Speaker 1>the latter as herders and an economy that became more

0:20:41.560 --> 0:20:45.840
<v Speaker 1>pastoral by the decade. They marketed their animals northward to

0:20:45.920 --> 0:20:49.919
<v Speaker 1>horse poor Northern Plains tribes, westward to the New Mexicans

0:20:50.080 --> 0:20:54.760
<v Speaker 1>via trade fairs in places like Pacos Picres and Taos,

0:20:55.200 --> 0:21:00.399
<v Speaker 1>and eventually eastward to the Americans to a significant agree.

0:21:00.440 --> 0:21:04.919
<v Speaker 1>Then the native people created the Western horse trade, built

0:21:04.960 --> 0:21:09.399
<v Speaker 1>their status systems around horse ownership, and used the horse

0:21:09.440 --> 0:21:14.760
<v Speaker 1>trade to manipulate Euro Americans anxious for profits and alliances

0:21:14.800 --> 0:21:18.919
<v Speaker 1>with them. There were downsides. As with groups like the

0:21:18.960 --> 0:21:25.200
<v Speaker 1>Comanches and Lakotas, the horse trade produced territorial expansion. Entire

0:21:25.280 --> 0:21:30.280
<v Speaker 1>cottonwood groves along rivers like the Arkansas also disappeared as

0:21:30.400 --> 0:21:34.639
<v Speaker 1>tribes endeavored to get their herds through snowy winters, and

0:21:34.720 --> 0:21:37.560
<v Speaker 1>because winters on the northern plains could be hard on

0:21:37.680 --> 0:21:42.680
<v Speaker 1>horse survival, Raids for replenishment of tribal stock rippled from

0:21:42.720 --> 0:21:47.320
<v Speaker 1>north to south every spring, as happened in the fur

0:21:47.440 --> 0:21:51.000
<v Speaker 1>trade with the mountain Men. A point came when the

0:21:51.040 --> 0:21:56.680
<v Speaker 1>Americans attempted a similar step. With millions of horses running free,

0:21:56.880 --> 0:22:02.000
<v Speaker 1>they tried their hand at capture. Catching wild horses may

0:22:02.000 --> 0:22:06.800
<v Speaker 1>have begun as a North African or Iberian technique. By

0:22:06.840 --> 0:22:10.640
<v Speaker 1>the time Americans entered the horse economy, many different peoples

0:22:10.760 --> 0:22:13.800
<v Speaker 1>seem to have mastered it. Nolan may have learned the

0:22:13.920 --> 0:22:17.520
<v Speaker 1>art from the French and Spanish settlers of Louisiana towns

0:22:18.000 --> 0:22:21.800
<v Speaker 1>like Bayou Pierre and Nacotish, but the best descriptions of

0:22:21.960 --> 0:22:26.800
<v Speaker 1>trade volume mustanging strategies came from a third group involved

0:22:26.840 --> 0:22:32.240
<v Speaker 1>in the horse trade, the Hispanic residents of Texas. In

0:22:32.280 --> 0:22:36.320
<v Speaker 1>the first six years of Spain's tax on captured wild horses.

0:22:36.920 --> 0:22:43.160
<v Speaker 1>Texas horse catchers paid up on seventeen thousand captured wild horses,

0:22:43.640 --> 0:22:45.880
<v Speaker 1>a great many of which appear to have ended up

0:22:46.000 --> 0:22:50.760
<v Speaker 1>east of the Mississippi River, carrying American farmers and merchants,

0:22:50.800 --> 0:22:55.280
<v Speaker 1>and supplying mounts for Southeastern Indians, like the Chickasaws and

0:22:55.359 --> 0:22:59.840
<v Speaker 1>the Seminoles. As one San Antonio official put it, the

0:23:00.119 --> 0:23:03.800
<v Speaker 1>number of mustangs and all these environs is so countless

0:23:04.200 --> 0:23:07.480
<v Speaker 1>that if anyone were capable of taming them and caring

0:23:07.520 --> 0:23:10.960
<v Speaker 1>for them, he could acquire a supply sufficient to furnish

0:23:11.040 --> 0:23:15.840
<v Speaker 1>an army. But this multitude is causing us such grave

0:23:16.000 --> 0:23:21.159
<v Speaker 1>damage that it is often necessary to shoot them. Catching

0:23:21.200 --> 0:23:25.200
<v Speaker 1>wildhorses in volume became a kind of wilderness art form,

0:23:25.640 --> 0:23:31.040
<v Speaker 1>with its own material culture, its own internal terminology. It

0:23:31.160 --> 0:23:36.280
<v Speaker 1>differed from trapping by aiming at live animal capture, although

0:23:36.320 --> 0:23:40.280
<v Speaker 1>making that happen was more difficult than you'd think. We

0:23:40.400 --> 0:23:43.960
<v Speaker 1>know all this because of a French scientist named Jean

0:23:44.040 --> 0:23:48.560
<v Speaker 1>Louis Brelandier, who in the eighteen twenties witnessed and described

0:23:48.840 --> 0:23:54.560
<v Speaker 1>the process of volume wild horse capture. Once mustangers were

0:23:54.600 --> 0:23:58.679
<v Speaker 1>among the herds and stallion bands. The first step was

0:23:58.880 --> 0:24:02.280
<v Speaker 1>understanding the land escape to know how to cite what

0:24:02.400 --> 0:24:08.920
<v Speaker 1>Burlandier called the corral. These are immense enclosures situated close

0:24:09.000 --> 0:24:12.720
<v Speaker 1>to some pond, he wrote. They were built of planted

0:24:12.760 --> 0:24:16.640
<v Speaker 1>posts with horizontals last to them with rawhide, and were

0:24:16.720 --> 0:24:19.880
<v Speaker 1>large enough that, once inside, a herd could be swept

0:24:19.880 --> 0:24:26.000
<v Speaker 1>into a circling milling confusion. The entrance, Berlandier wrote, is

0:24:26.119 --> 0:24:29.720
<v Speaker 1>placed in such a way that it forms a long corridor,

0:24:30.200 --> 0:24:33.880
<v Speaker 1>one consisting of brush wings fanning out a half mile

0:24:33.960 --> 0:24:37.800
<v Speaker 1>or more from the capture pen itself, and usually oriented

0:24:37.840 --> 0:24:43.000
<v Speaker 1>towards the south, so that prevailing southwesterly winds would envelop

0:24:43.080 --> 0:24:46.719
<v Speaker 1>an approaching herd in its own dust cloud, blinding it.

0:24:48.119 --> 0:24:52.480
<v Speaker 1>To start the action, mustangers divided themselves into three groups,

0:24:52.840 --> 0:24:57.040
<v Speaker 1>each with different rolls. A group of well mounted riders,

0:24:57.480 --> 0:25:01.720
<v Speaker 1>the Adventadores, had the task of startling the herd into

0:25:01.760 --> 0:25:05.400
<v Speaker 1>flight and pushing it towards the funnel leading to the pin.

0:25:06.320 --> 0:25:09.119
<v Speaker 1>The herd would find itself squeezed into a flight path

0:25:09.440 --> 0:25:13.159
<v Speaker 1>by a second group of mustangers, the Questos, who were

0:25:13.200 --> 0:25:17.560
<v Speaker 1>the most skilled riders and whose role consists of conducting

0:25:17.640 --> 0:25:21.720
<v Speaker 1>that dreadful mass of living beings by riding full gallop

0:25:21.760 --> 0:25:24.879
<v Speaker 1>along the flanks and gathering there in the midst of

0:25:24.960 --> 0:25:29.920
<v Speaker 1>suffocating dust the partial herds, which sometimes unite at the

0:25:29.920 --> 0:25:33.840
<v Speaker 1>sound of the terror of a large herd. Burlandier rode

0:25:35.000 --> 0:25:37.720
<v Speaker 1>at the moment of truth as the wide eyed horses

0:25:37.760 --> 0:25:41.200
<v Speaker 1>were sweeping at breakneck speed into the trap. A third

0:25:41.240 --> 0:25:46.480
<v Speaker 1>group of mustangers, the inseradoris, were charged with closing the gate,

0:25:47.080 --> 0:25:50.199
<v Speaker 1>sometimes dashing in to open it for an instant to

0:25:50.280 --> 0:25:55.359
<v Speaker 1>allow stallions in older horses to escape. The scenes that

0:25:55.480 --> 0:25:59.399
<v Speaker 1>followed had such an emotional load that Messioneiro's had a

0:25:59.440 --> 0:26:04.240
<v Speaker 1>special vocabulary for them. It was a jargon rife with

0:26:04.359 --> 0:26:10.760
<v Speaker 1>the language of death. Some horses died from sentimiento are

0:26:10.880 --> 0:26:18.160
<v Speaker 1>broken heartedness over capture. Others from DSpace show nervous rage.

0:26:18.280 --> 0:26:24.560
<v Speaker 1>Another term of art was adiando stinking. It referred to

0:26:24.640 --> 0:26:28.800
<v Speaker 1>a capture corral ruined for use from the effect of

0:26:28.960 --> 0:26:32.800
<v Speaker 1>having been too often jammed with panicked and dying animals.

0:26:34.080 --> 0:26:39.040
<v Speaker 1>Burlandier ended his story this way. When these animals find

0:26:39.080 --> 0:26:44.200
<v Speaker 1>themselves enclosed, the first to enter fruitlessly search for exits,

0:26:44.480 --> 0:26:48.800
<v Speaker 1>and those in the rear trample over the first. It

0:26:48.920 --> 0:26:52.200
<v Speaker 1>is rare that in one of these chases. A large

0:26:52.240 --> 0:26:55.080
<v Speaker 1>part of the horses thus trapped do not kill one

0:26:55.080 --> 0:26:59.439
<v Speaker 1>another in their efforts to escape. It has happened that

0:26:59.480 --> 0:27:03.000
<v Speaker 1>the Messing Arrows have trapped at one swoop more than

0:27:03.119 --> 0:27:13.080
<v Speaker 1>one thousand horses, of which not a fifth remained. What

0:27:13.240 --> 0:27:18.120
<v Speaker 1>made these Southern planes horse trade expeditions shadowy and northern

0:27:18.160 --> 0:27:22.360
<v Speaker 1>planes for activities well known, was actually a simple difference.

0:27:23.440 --> 0:27:28.240
<v Speaker 1>The horse trade featured live, not dead animals, so horses

0:27:28.320 --> 0:27:32.560
<v Speaker 1>became their own transportation to markets. There was no need

0:27:32.600 --> 0:27:38.159
<v Speaker 1>for corporate investment in freight wagons, steamboats, or shipping. That

0:27:38.280 --> 0:27:42.960
<v Speaker 1>also meant a meager historical trail in an economy for

0:27:43.000 --> 0:27:47.600
<v Speaker 1>which so few day by day accounts exist. Eighteen o

0:27:47.840 --> 0:27:52.480
<v Speaker 1>eight eighteen oh nine, Trader Anthony Glasses Journal, conveying a

0:27:52.560 --> 0:27:56.840
<v Speaker 1>story I told in a prior podcast episode, provides one

0:27:56.840 --> 0:28:00.600
<v Speaker 1>of the best looks at the otherwise little known Western

0:28:00.640 --> 0:28:05.320
<v Speaker 1>horse trade. Glasses Journal allows us to recreate a history

0:28:05.320 --> 0:28:09.360
<v Speaker 1>in our heads where one had barely been imaginable before.

0:28:10.880 --> 0:28:13.920
<v Speaker 1>It took a full decade after Spain in the US

0:28:13.960 --> 0:28:16.960
<v Speaker 1>finally agreed on the Red and Arkansas Rivers as the

0:28:17.040 --> 0:28:21.280
<v Speaker 1>official boundary between the two North American powers before another

0:28:21.359 --> 0:28:25.520
<v Speaker 1>American horse trader would leave us an account rivaling Glasses.

0:28:26.440 --> 0:28:30.159
<v Speaker 1>In those years, scores very likely hundreds of unknown and

0:28:30.400 --> 0:28:35.680
<v Speaker 1>undocumented American horse traders traversed the plains, running wild horses,

0:28:35.960 --> 0:28:40.160
<v Speaker 1>trading for animals from the Indians, and probably encouraging such

0:28:40.200 --> 0:28:43.520
<v Speaker 1>a general theft of horses across the West that one

0:28:43.560 --> 0:28:48.280
<v Speaker 1>observer estimated that ten thousand were stolen from Spanish ranches

0:28:48.320 --> 0:28:52.800
<v Speaker 1>almost every year. Murky accounts exist for a few of

0:28:52.800 --> 0:28:59.480
<v Speaker 1>these traders. The Osages plundered Alexander McFarlane and John Lemons's

0:28:59.600 --> 0:29:05.920
<v Speaker 1>Mustaging party in eighteen twelve. August Pierre Chateau, Jules Demon

0:29:06.440 --> 0:29:10.360
<v Speaker 1>and Joseph Philibert of Saint Louis opened up a significant

0:29:10.360 --> 0:29:14.680
<v Speaker 1>horse trade with the Comanches and Rappa Hose between eighteen

0:29:14.800 --> 0:29:20.160
<v Speaker 1>fifteen and eighteen seventeen, and Cafias Ham and David Burnett

0:29:20.560 --> 0:29:24.840
<v Speaker 1>became modestly famous horse traders in the same years, as

0:29:24.920 --> 0:29:28.360
<v Speaker 1>did Jacob Fowler, who left us a journal written in

0:29:28.440 --> 0:29:34.320
<v Speaker 1>phonics along with Hugh Glynn. Then came Thomas James of

0:29:34.440 --> 0:29:38.920
<v Speaker 1>Saint Louis, whose book Three Years among the Indians and

0:29:39.040 --> 0:29:43.680
<v Speaker 1>Mexicans left us a nicely close grained look at the

0:29:43.800 --> 0:29:48.800
<v Speaker 1>Mustanger's west, James set a pattern to come. He was

0:29:48.840 --> 0:29:52.400
<v Speaker 1>both a mountain man and a mustanger. He had first

0:29:52.440 --> 0:29:55.640
<v Speaker 1>gone west by ascending the Missouri to the Three Forks

0:29:55.680 --> 0:29:58.960
<v Speaker 1>in eighteen oh nine and eighteen ten, and he didn't

0:29:59.000 --> 0:30:02.560
<v Speaker 1>make his first trip onto the southern plains until eighteen

0:30:02.720 --> 0:30:06.840
<v Speaker 1>twenty one, riding out from Fort Smith in president Oklahoma,

0:30:07.160 --> 0:30:11.880
<v Speaker 1>before being confronted by Comanches under Spanish orders not to

0:30:11.920 --> 0:30:17.080
<v Speaker 1>allow Americans to approach Santa Fe. Eyeing those splendid Comanche

0:30:17.080 --> 0:30:21.200
<v Speaker 1>horse herds, Thomas James got a sense of the possibilities.

0:30:25.080 --> 0:30:28.640
<v Speaker 1>Invited to trade for horses the next summer, James did so.

0:30:29.680 --> 0:30:33.480
<v Speaker 1>The result was a three year expedition from eighteen twenty

0:30:33.520 --> 0:30:37.200
<v Speaker 1>two to eighteen twenty four that was financed with fifty

0:30:37.240 --> 0:30:42.240
<v Speaker 1>five hundred dollars in goods. Ascending the Canadian River, James's

0:30:42.240 --> 0:30:46.320
<v Speaker 1>party of twenty three finally met the Wichitas under their

0:30:46.440 --> 0:30:53.000
<v Speaker 1>headman Alsare, and the trading commenced. James quickly bought seventeen

0:30:53.120 --> 0:30:56.080
<v Speaker 1>that he knew would fetch one hundred dollars apiece back

0:30:56.120 --> 0:30:59.600
<v Speaker 1>in the settlements. Eventually, the Wichitas introduced him to the

0:30:59.640 --> 0:31:03.880
<v Speaker 1>command achies a band under Big Star, and James got

0:31:03.880 --> 0:31:06.600
<v Speaker 1>a taste of a little twist the Comanches put on

0:31:06.680 --> 0:31:10.960
<v Speaker 1>horse trading. They were perfectly willing to trade their best horses,

0:31:11.440 --> 0:31:16.040
<v Speaker 1>since they had every intention of stealing them back. Despite

0:31:16.040 --> 0:31:19.880
<v Speaker 1>the frustrations, the life of a Western horse trader held

0:31:20.040 --> 0:31:24.600
<v Speaker 1>a real allure. James was smitten. I began to be

0:31:24.760 --> 0:31:29.120
<v Speaker 1>reconciled to a savage life and enamored with the simplicity

0:31:29.280 --> 0:31:34.400
<v Speaker 1>of nature. Here there were no debts, no sheriffs, no marshals,

0:31:34.960 --> 0:31:40.240
<v Speaker 1>no hypocrisy or false friendships. Once he had assembled a

0:31:40.320 --> 0:31:43.720
<v Speaker 1>drove of three hundred and twenty three high quality animals,

0:31:44.200 --> 0:31:48.560
<v Speaker 1>James departed for the settlements, but not before Olsiree made

0:31:48.720 --> 0:31:52.719
<v Speaker 1>a present of his own fine war horse, Chakoba, and

0:31:53.000 --> 0:31:56.880
<v Speaker 1>urged James to return the next year to the headwaters

0:31:56.880 --> 0:32:01.120
<v Speaker 1>of the Red, where the Wichitas grazed sick steam thousand

0:32:01.320 --> 0:32:05.480
<v Speaker 1>fine ponies. That would have been the horse trader's promise

0:32:05.560 --> 0:32:10.920
<v Speaker 1>of the golden fleece. But James never returned. Pushing his

0:32:11.040 --> 0:32:15.960
<v Speaker 1>herd eastward, he lost all but seventy one to stampedes

0:32:16.560 --> 0:32:20.360
<v Speaker 1>and what must have been a biblical attack of horseflies.

0:32:21.280 --> 0:32:25.880
<v Speaker 1>More attrition followed as he penetrated the woodlands. If James

0:32:25.920 --> 0:32:29.480
<v Speaker 1>can be believed, when he finally reached Saint Louis for

0:32:29.640 --> 0:32:34.120
<v Speaker 1>his troubles, he had just five horses left. That was

0:32:34.240 --> 0:32:38.240
<v Speaker 1>precisely the number he had started with three years earlier.

0:32:40.080 --> 0:32:43.480
<v Speaker 1>As the wild horse herds spread farther north and west,

0:32:44.000 --> 0:32:49.640
<v Speaker 1>the trade expanded geographically and in volume. The markets evolved too.

0:32:50.840 --> 0:32:54.360
<v Speaker 1>Overland immigrants plying the trails across the plains needed a

0:32:54.360 --> 0:32:57.960
<v Speaker 1>constant supply of fresh horses, and during the War with

0:32:58.120 --> 0:33:01.600
<v Speaker 1>Mexico in the late eighteen forties, the US Army of

0:33:01.640 --> 0:33:06.760
<v Speaker 1>the West needed remounts for its cavalry, so between eighteen

0:33:06.840 --> 0:33:10.200
<v Speaker 1>twenty two and eighteen fifty the horse trade shifted to

0:33:10.280 --> 0:33:14.200
<v Speaker 1>a new phase. In eighteen thirty four, the Trade and

0:33:14.360 --> 0:33:18.560
<v Speaker 1>Intercourse Act for the Indian Country made horses a legal

0:33:18.720 --> 0:33:22.840
<v Speaker 1>trade item in the West. The trading firm of Bent,

0:33:23.160 --> 0:33:26.840
<v Speaker 1>Saint Vrain and Company got its license that same year

0:33:27.280 --> 0:33:30.680
<v Speaker 1>and built Bent's Fort on the north side of the

0:33:30.800 --> 0:33:34.760
<v Speaker 1>Arkansas River the next year. That trade took a leap

0:33:34.800 --> 0:33:38.640
<v Speaker 1>forward in eighteen forty when the Cheyennes made peace with

0:33:38.760 --> 0:33:42.840
<v Speaker 1>the Comanches, and kiwas so much so that the horse

0:33:42.880 --> 0:33:46.640
<v Speaker 1>and mule trade became the key to Bentz Fort's success.

0:33:47.680 --> 0:33:52.160
<v Speaker 1>The Colorado traders benefited from wildcought and Indian horses from

0:33:52.200 --> 0:33:55.680
<v Speaker 1>off the surrounding prairies, but they also reaped profits from

0:33:55.720 --> 0:33:59.880
<v Speaker 1>the large number of horses that former mountain men, seeking

0:34:00.120 --> 0:34:04.480
<v Speaker 1>new animal resources. With beaver now entirely trapped out, drove

0:34:04.680 --> 0:34:10.040
<v Speaker 1>eastward from California. Mountain man Old Bill Williams claimed that

0:34:10.400 --> 0:34:13.360
<v Speaker 1>the greatest coup of his long career in the West

0:34:13.880 --> 0:34:18.200
<v Speaker 1>was stealing four thousand horses from California ranches and driving

0:34:18.239 --> 0:34:23.000
<v Speaker 1>them to Bentce Forward. Jim Beckworth, long adopted into the

0:34:23.080 --> 0:34:27.719
<v Speaker 1>Crow tribe, arrived at Pueblo in eighteen forty six with

0:34:27.840 --> 0:34:31.799
<v Speaker 1>one thousand horses from California, trading almost all of them

0:34:32.120 --> 0:34:37.080
<v Speaker 1>to Stephen Carney's Army of the West. Former beaver trappers

0:34:37.280 --> 0:34:41.840
<v Speaker 1>Solomon Sublette and Joseph Walker came with ten drovers and

0:34:42.040 --> 0:34:47.200
<v Speaker 1>five hundred California horses at about the same time. With

0:34:47.320 --> 0:34:50.680
<v Speaker 1>beaver gone and the buffalo slaughter not yet under way,

0:34:51.200 --> 0:34:55.000
<v Speaker 1>for Western outdoorsmen, the horse trade was now pretty much

0:34:55.040 --> 0:35:00.360
<v Speaker 1>the story. So the trade kept shifting ever northward because

0:35:00.400 --> 0:35:04.239
<v Speaker 1>of the Oregon Trail By the eighteen fifties, Fort Laramie

0:35:04.520 --> 0:35:08.200
<v Speaker 1>had become the epicenter of the trade, but especially in

0:35:08.239 --> 0:35:11.160
<v Speaker 1>the years after the Civil War, as the slaughter of

0:35:11.200 --> 0:35:15.000
<v Speaker 1>bison took away the wild herds competition for grass and water,

0:35:15.560 --> 0:35:20.240
<v Speaker 1>wild horses underwent a population explosion on the northern plains,

0:35:20.640 --> 0:35:24.120
<v Speaker 1>filling the Red Desert of Wyoming and the badlands of

0:35:24.200 --> 0:35:30.319
<v Speaker 1>Montana and the Dakotas with wild bands. Like almost all

0:35:30.440 --> 0:35:33.640
<v Speaker 1>the rest of the West, wild animals except in the

0:35:33.680 --> 0:35:39.040
<v Speaker 1>most parched deserts, the vast horseherds did not survive long

0:35:39.200 --> 0:35:43.760
<v Speaker 1>into the twentieth century. Ranchers paid their cowboys to shoot

0:35:43.760 --> 0:35:47.800
<v Speaker 1>wild horses on site, then bait the carcasses with poison

0:35:48.200 --> 0:35:52.279
<v Speaker 1>to kill wolves and coyotes. It was a strange kind

0:35:52.280 --> 0:35:55.759
<v Speaker 1>of murder to shoot an animal exactly like the one

0:35:55.800 --> 0:35:59.560
<v Speaker 1>you were riding, but it was doubly efficient for ranchers

0:35:59.719 --> 0:36:03.880
<v Speaker 1>who dreamed of a world without wild horses or wolves.

0:36:05.120 --> 0:36:08.200
<v Speaker 1>Enough horses were still out there that during the Great

0:36:08.239 --> 0:36:13.320
<v Speaker 1>War World War One, Miles City furnished Allied buyers, thirty

0:36:13.320 --> 0:36:16.560
<v Speaker 1>two thousand of them. That helped the British and French

0:36:16.880 --> 0:36:23.319
<v Speaker 1>hold off the Germans till the Yanks arrived. Then modernity hit,

0:36:24.040 --> 0:36:27.560
<v Speaker 1>and with it a story that tied past and future.

0:36:28.800 --> 0:36:31.239
<v Speaker 1>One of the markers of the modern world in the

0:36:31.360 --> 0:36:36.880
<v Speaker 1>Roaring twenties was the remarkable growth in household pets. The

0:36:36.920 --> 0:36:42.160
<v Speaker 1>wild horse trade finally acquired a corporate player when Kettel Ration,

0:36:42.680 --> 0:36:46.160
<v Speaker 1>the first of the national pet food companies, began to

0:36:46.200 --> 0:36:50.360
<v Speaker 1>put up plants in the Midwest. Some of the sangers

0:36:50.440 --> 0:36:55.640
<v Speaker 1>building capture corrals in the badlands of eastern Montana evidently

0:36:55.760 --> 0:36:59.319
<v Speaker 1>were unaware that the horses they were selling to buyers

0:36:59.360 --> 0:37:03.960
<v Speaker 1>in fancy at the railroad stations were going to pet

0:37:04.000 --> 0:37:09.560
<v Speaker 1>food slaughterhouses. One of them, a young man named Frank Litz,

0:37:10.080 --> 0:37:14.560
<v Speaker 1>learned the truth around a campfire one night. We're up on.

0:37:14.680 --> 0:37:18.319
<v Speaker 1>Litz bought one hundred and fifty sticks of dynamite and

0:37:18.360 --> 0:37:22.680
<v Speaker 1>a train ticket to Illinois with the intent of performing

0:37:23.080 --> 0:37:28.120
<v Speaker 1>eco terrorism on a dog food plant. There. Guards caught

0:37:28.200 --> 0:37:31.320
<v Speaker 1>him before he could set off his charges. But I

0:37:31.480 --> 0:37:35.919
<v Speaker 1>like to imagine that a wild horse somewhere nickered when

0:37:35.960 --> 0:37:52.800
<v Speaker 1>that story circulated in the West.

0:37:55.120 --> 0:37:55.319
<v Speaker 2>Dan.

0:37:55.360 --> 0:38:00.480
<v Speaker 3>When we talk about wildlife in North America, a lot

0:38:00.520 --> 0:38:05.400
<v Speaker 3>of the debates fall around what animals belong where and

0:38:05.440 --> 0:38:10.200
<v Speaker 3>what animals should be where That's how I yeah, I mean, well,

0:38:10.280 --> 0:38:12.840
<v Speaker 3>I think just generally speaking, you're talking about wolves in

0:38:12.840 --> 0:38:16.920
<v Speaker 3>the West, you're talking about invasive species. You're talking, you know,

0:38:17.000 --> 0:38:20.560
<v Speaker 3>like what animals should properly be in a certain place,

0:38:21.520 --> 0:38:27.200
<v Speaker 3>And obviously that depends on your chronological framework, right, and

0:38:27.239 --> 0:38:30.360
<v Speaker 3>so here I think horses are one of these species

0:38:30.400 --> 0:38:32.960
<v Speaker 3>that when people look at them on the landscape today,

0:38:33.040 --> 0:38:35.720
<v Speaker 3>they say, these things shouldn't be there, they don't belong.

0:38:35.800 --> 0:38:37.920
<v Speaker 3>But you obviously take a different approach to that.

0:38:38.800 --> 0:38:44.719
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I take the deep time approach. And so you

0:38:44.719 --> 0:38:49.759
<v Speaker 1>know what one has to so to be sure, old

0:38:49.760 --> 0:38:53.800
<v Speaker 1>whirl horses brought here by Spaniards, the Brits, the French.

0:38:55.120 --> 0:38:58.120
<v Speaker 1>They had gone through several thousand and four to six

0:38:58.160 --> 0:39:03.840
<v Speaker 1>thousand years of domestication and alterations in their confirmation and

0:39:04.360 --> 0:39:08.680
<v Speaker 1>so forth and size and everything. So they had certainly

0:39:08.719 --> 0:39:14.080
<v Speaker 1>been bred to some different you know, conformations than classic

0:39:14.920 --> 0:39:19.640
<v Speaker 1>American horses. But the horse is one of those animals,

0:39:19.719 --> 0:39:23.320
<v Speaker 1>like the wolf, like the camel actually, which is another

0:39:23.360 --> 0:39:26.440
<v Speaker 1>one that causes people to scratch their heads. These are

0:39:26.480 --> 0:39:30.080
<v Speaker 1>animals that evolved in North America, you know, after the

0:39:30.160 --> 0:39:35.600
<v Speaker 1>chick saloub impact took out the dinosaurs, and evolution sort

0:39:35.600 --> 0:39:39.680
<v Speaker 1>of started again and began producing the age of mammals.

0:39:40.360 --> 0:39:44.840
<v Speaker 1>Horses were one of the creatures that evolved in North America.

0:39:44.960 --> 0:39:50.120
<v Speaker 1>And so, because I like to think in big picture terms,

0:39:51.200 --> 0:39:56.640
<v Speaker 1>it seems to me hard to justify an argument completely

0:39:57.239 --> 0:40:01.520
<v Speaker 1>that the horse doesn't have some place on American soil

0:40:01.680 --> 0:40:07.400
<v Speaker 1>since it's been here for fifty six fifty seven million years.

0:40:08.120 --> 0:40:11.560
<v Speaker 1>Then was only absent for about eight thousand or so

0:40:11.680 --> 0:40:17.480
<v Speaker 1>years before Old Worlders returned horses to North America. And

0:40:17.920 --> 0:40:21.239
<v Speaker 1>you know, as I argued in that podcast, that's this

0:40:21.280 --> 0:40:24.680
<v Speaker 1>is one of the reasons why horses did so well

0:40:24.880 --> 0:40:29.240
<v Speaker 1>when they got here. I mean, they were completely preadapted,

0:40:29.640 --> 0:40:33.560
<v Speaker 1>Their teeth, their hoofs, their speed, everything about their behavior

0:40:33.560 --> 0:40:36.360
<v Speaker 1>had all been shaped by North America. And so they

0:40:36.480 --> 0:40:39.040
<v Speaker 1>get back here. And one of the reasons I make

0:40:39.080 --> 0:40:41.160
<v Speaker 1>a point about that is because there are places where

0:40:41.480 --> 0:40:44.839
<v Speaker 1>Europeans tried to introduce horses, like South Africa, and they

0:40:44.880 --> 0:40:48.520
<v Speaker 1>had a very difficult time getting horses to actually survive

0:40:48.600 --> 0:40:52.480
<v Speaker 1>in any numbers in South Africa. But in North America, man,

0:40:52.520 --> 0:40:55.440
<v Speaker 1>as soon as they got loose, they were instantly sort

0:40:55.440 --> 0:40:59.040
<v Speaker 1>of you know, out there replicating the pleistocen. But what

0:40:59.160 --> 0:41:01.879
<v Speaker 1>I think is, you know, been an issue for most

0:41:01.880 --> 0:41:04.440
<v Speaker 1>people in thinking about that, is that we all know

0:41:04.760 --> 0:41:09.240
<v Speaker 1>historically that horses in the last four hundred years came

0:41:09.360 --> 0:41:13.000
<v Speaker 1>from Europe to North America or one of the species

0:41:13.080 --> 0:41:16.840
<v Speaker 1>that was brought here and were new then, and so

0:41:17.000 --> 0:41:20.880
<v Speaker 1>that's how our perception of history is often a fairly

0:41:21.000 --> 0:41:24.239
<v Speaker 1>short one, and so that's how we think of the

0:41:24.320 --> 0:41:27.680
<v Speaker 1>story of the horse. It's something that came from Europe

0:41:27.719 --> 0:41:30.560
<v Speaker 1>and ended up in America a few hundred years ago.

0:41:31.040 --> 0:41:33.680
<v Speaker 1>And of course now we as we all know, wild

0:41:33.719 --> 0:41:39.360
<v Speaker 1>horses in the West especially have produced some almost impossibly

0:41:40.080 --> 0:41:45.560
<v Speaker 1>difficult issues for the BLM, in particular where most wild

0:41:45.560 --> 0:41:48.839
<v Speaker 1>horses are. And I mean I always try to make

0:41:48.880 --> 0:41:53.040
<v Speaker 1>the point when people bring that up as well. The

0:41:53.120 --> 0:41:57.360
<v Speaker 1>problem with the introduction, the reintroduction, the recovery of horses

0:41:57.400 --> 0:42:00.120
<v Speaker 1>in North America is that we didn't that the same

0:42:00.160 --> 0:42:04.520
<v Speaker 1>time bring all of their Pleistocene predators over with them.

0:42:04.840 --> 0:42:08.120
<v Speaker 1>Just the horse made it. Nobody had tried to domesticate

0:42:08.360 --> 0:42:11.920
<v Speaker 1>the sabertooth cat, and so we didn't bring any of

0:42:11.960 --> 0:42:16.319
<v Speaker 1>their predators along to America with them. And that's been

0:42:16.400 --> 0:42:21.200
<v Speaker 1>the difficulty, especially in in America where we've suppressed or

0:42:21.239 --> 0:42:24.920
<v Speaker 1>eliminated the populations of predators, as you've got an animal

0:42:24.960 --> 0:42:27.719
<v Speaker 1>out there that once had big predators and they're not

0:42:27.719 --> 0:42:28.320
<v Speaker 1>there anymore.

0:42:28.680 --> 0:42:30.520
<v Speaker 2>But I mean, you have to realize that you laying

0:42:30.560 --> 0:42:35.120
<v Speaker 2>a lot of traps for yourself because because like I get,

0:42:35.200 --> 0:42:39.640
<v Speaker 2>like horses were here, okay, and then since someone brought

0:42:39.719 --> 0:42:45.560
<v Speaker 2>horses back, it's okay to view them as having like

0:42:45.640 --> 0:42:50.200
<v Speaker 2>continuity that they're sort of you know, they're a native

0:42:50.200 --> 0:42:53.200
<v Speaker 2>animal with an asterisk. But would you take it so

0:42:53.280 --> 0:42:57.759
<v Speaker 2>far as to advocate on bringing camels back or does

0:42:57.800 --> 0:42:59.800
<v Speaker 2>it need to be that they came back four hundred

0:42:59.840 --> 0:43:01.280
<v Speaker 2>year ago not today?

0:43:02.800 --> 0:43:05.279
<v Speaker 1>Well, you know, we did try to bring camels back.

0:43:05.920 --> 0:43:10.520
<v Speaker 1>Didn't work out, No, it didn't work, but we did

0:43:10.600 --> 0:43:13.839
<v Speaker 1>make an effort to return camels. I mean, and not

0:43:14.080 --> 0:43:19.640
<v Speaker 1>because Americans in the eighteen fifties understood that camels were

0:43:20.000 --> 0:43:22.560
<v Speaker 1>an evolutionary in North American species.

0:43:22.560 --> 0:43:25.400
<v Speaker 2>But it wasn't on the Spanish mind when they brought horses.

0:43:25.480 --> 0:43:27.680
<v Speaker 1>It wasn't on their mind either. I mean, we haven't

0:43:27.760 --> 0:43:31.040
<v Speaker 1>known this, in fact for more than about half a century.

0:43:31.120 --> 0:43:35.279
<v Speaker 1>So this is something that's relatively new in our consciousness,

0:43:35.320 --> 0:43:37.719
<v Speaker 1>which is I think one of the reasons why acceptance

0:43:37.800 --> 0:43:42.399
<v Speaker 1>of the idea has kind of lagged. I mean, I'm

0:43:42.520 --> 0:43:45.359
<v Speaker 1>kind of intrigued by the story of camels. I've never

0:43:45.440 --> 0:43:48.880
<v Speaker 1>really read deeply into it, but you know, I know

0:43:49.080 --> 0:43:54.680
<v Speaker 1>that camels were used, for example, in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona,

0:43:55.480 --> 0:44:00.839
<v Speaker 1>in the desert country, and they did reasonable well. I mean,

0:44:00.840 --> 0:44:05.600
<v Speaker 1>there were domesticated Campbell's, they never went wild, but when

0:44:05.760 --> 0:44:09.040
<v Speaker 1>a few of them got abandoned, there were so few

0:44:09.080 --> 0:44:11.440
<v Speaker 1>of them. I don't think cammels have the same reproductive

0:44:11.800 --> 0:44:14.680
<v Speaker 1>turnover that horses do. There were so few of them

0:44:15.000 --> 0:44:18.120
<v Speaker 1>that the ones that were left basically when people saw

0:44:18.160 --> 0:44:21.359
<v Speaker 1>them they shot them. Indians native people arrowed them when

0:44:21.400 --> 0:44:21.960
<v Speaker 1>they saw.

0:44:21.880 --> 0:44:23.000
<v Speaker 2>Well it was at that time.

0:44:23.920 --> 0:44:27.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it was the eighteen fifties and eighteen sixties, and

0:44:27.880 --> 0:44:30.080
<v Speaker 1>there were still some camels in the West as late

0:44:30.120 --> 0:44:34.040
<v Speaker 1>as the eighteen eighties, so that period in the yeah,

0:44:34.160 --> 0:44:37.520
<v Speaker 1>the Civil War, before and after the Civil War, there

0:44:37.520 --> 0:44:40.839
<v Speaker 1>were actually camels in the West. But now that particular

0:44:41.360 --> 0:44:44.520
<v Speaker 1>attempt that didn't take the way the horse thing did.

0:44:45.760 --> 0:44:49.560
<v Speaker 2>What was the horse trader Nolan? What was his first name?

0:44:49.680 --> 0:44:50.080
<v Speaker 1>Philip.

0:44:52.120 --> 0:44:55.879
<v Speaker 2>You mentioned Philip you, I'm sure in the interesting time

0:44:56.480 --> 0:45:04.400
<v Speaker 2>you mentioned Philip Nolan and said he had eccentricities.

0:45:03.840 --> 0:45:06.080
<v Speaker 1>Many and great many great.

0:45:06.680 --> 0:45:09.279
<v Speaker 2>So if I today was talking about someone and I said,

0:45:09.320 --> 0:45:16.440
<v Speaker 2>you know, rand, he's got certain eccentricities, he's gonna get

0:45:16.480 --> 0:45:18.880
<v Speaker 2>an image in his mind, you know, like not exactly,

0:45:18.920 --> 0:45:20.840
<v Speaker 2>but he's gonna sort of catch my drift. You know

0:45:21.840 --> 0:45:22.799
<v Speaker 2>what were they?

0:45:24.440 --> 0:45:27.319
<v Speaker 1>Well, the guy who said that was William Dunbar. He

0:45:27.360 --> 0:45:30.560
<v Speaker 1>was a scientist and that's just Mississippi who knew Nolan.

0:45:31.239 --> 0:45:34.239
<v Speaker 1>And he never elaborated. And I don't think that was

0:45:34.360 --> 0:45:36.520
<v Speaker 1>that was in a letter to Thomas Jefferson, who was

0:45:36.560 --> 0:45:38.279
<v Speaker 1>asking about this guy. I couldn't know.

0:45:38.360 --> 0:45:40.600
<v Speaker 2>Was he like a sexual devian or like what like

0:45:41.200 --> 0:45:42.799
<v Speaker 2>or he's just behavioral or what.

0:45:44.360 --> 0:45:49.360
<v Speaker 1>I don't know exactly what he was referring to. But

0:45:51.040 --> 0:45:55.160
<v Speaker 1>Nolan was, uh, he was one of those kind of

0:45:55.200 --> 0:46:02.880
<v Speaker 1>people who, uh, he dominated an everywhere pretty clearly, everywhere

0:46:02.880 --> 0:46:06.359
<v Speaker 1>he went, you know. And I don't know that this

0:46:06.480 --> 0:46:09.640
<v Speaker 1>exactly happened, but I suspect it may have happened. Philip

0:46:09.760 --> 0:46:14.839
<v Speaker 1>Nolan evidently was the kind of guy who being introduced

0:46:15.040 --> 0:46:19.640
<v Speaker 1>in a comanche camp for the first time would pick

0:46:19.680 --> 0:46:22.840
<v Speaker 1>out the biggest, meanest looking dude and walk up to

0:46:22.960 --> 0:46:28.359
<v Speaker 1>him and shove him. And so he exhibited that kind

0:46:28.400 --> 0:46:32.759
<v Speaker 1>of cocksure confidence that I think enabled him to do

0:46:32.880 --> 0:46:37.120
<v Speaker 1>a lot of the things that he did. And I

0:46:37.160 --> 0:46:39.920
<v Speaker 1>suspect that Dunbar was who was you know, he's a

0:46:39.960 --> 0:46:46.319
<v Speaker 1>cultured guy out of Edinburgh, Scotland, and highly educated. He

0:46:46.400 --> 0:46:49.440
<v Speaker 1>was a very well known scientist at the time. I

0:46:49.480 --> 0:46:54.000
<v Speaker 1>suspect he thought Nolan was. I mean, because he says

0:46:54.040 --> 0:46:58.839
<v Speaker 1>something like he lacked a sufficient education, but he did

0:46:59.040 --> 0:47:05.000
<v Speaker 1>have print simples of honor tied to a tremendous amount

0:47:05.080 --> 0:47:07.800
<v Speaker 1>of personal courage, and so I think he was a

0:47:07.880 --> 0:47:10.400
<v Speaker 1>kind of guy who was in a different class than

0:47:10.480 --> 0:47:17.319
<v Speaker 1>Dunbar was. He was somebody who Dunbar probably didn't entirely understand,

0:47:17.960 --> 0:47:22.920
<v Speaker 1>but Nolan didn't. He did cut a large figure in

0:47:23.000 --> 0:47:24.879
<v Speaker 1>that part of the world. A lot of people knew

0:47:24.880 --> 0:47:29.080
<v Speaker 1>who he was. He never married, but he very clearly

0:47:29.560 --> 0:47:35.000
<v Speaker 1>had a girlfriend in every port. He had girlfriends in Natches,

0:47:35.040 --> 0:47:41.279
<v Speaker 1>in Nacotash, in Arkansas, and probably in every Indian encampment

0:47:41.400 --> 0:47:44.880
<v Speaker 1>that he went to. And one of the kind of

0:47:44.960 --> 0:47:49.719
<v Speaker 1>intriguing things about his death was he probably wouldn't have

0:47:49.800 --> 0:47:55.880
<v Speaker 1>been killed in that Spanish attack on these mustangers in

0:47:55.920 --> 0:47:59.319
<v Speaker 1>eighteen oh one when he died, because the accounts of

0:47:59.360 --> 0:48:05.040
<v Speaker 1>it say that a stray ricochet bully caught him in

0:48:05.120 --> 0:48:09.480
<v Speaker 1>the forehead, and so it wasn't even that he was

0:48:09.600 --> 0:48:14.960
<v Speaker 1>actually successfully targeted. It's just that he got taken out

0:48:15.080 --> 0:48:17.719
<v Speaker 1>by a kind of a you know one in one

0:48:17.760 --> 0:48:20.879
<v Speaker 1>hundred Chants, where a bullet, a stray bullet, hits him

0:48:20.880 --> 0:48:21.839
<v Speaker 1>in the head and kills him.

0:48:22.040 --> 0:48:24.839
<v Speaker 2>Has he been treated fictionally in film? Have you seen?

0:48:26.320 --> 0:48:30.040
<v Speaker 1>Well? There is I'm trying to remember who wrote this book,

0:48:30.600 --> 0:48:34.000
<v Speaker 1>The Man Without a Country it was called, and the

0:48:34.040 --> 0:48:37.000
<v Speaker 1>protagonist in that book was a guy named Philip Nolan,

0:48:37.440 --> 0:48:40.480
<v Speaker 1>But there's always been some suspicion about whether he was

0:48:40.520 --> 0:48:44.000
<v Speaker 1>based this character was based on Philip Nolan, the real

0:48:44.040 --> 0:48:47.799
<v Speaker 1>Philip Nolan, or just on some invented character. But there

0:48:47.880 --> 0:48:50.880
<v Speaker 1>is a book with a guy named Philip Nolan as

0:48:50.960 --> 0:48:55.439
<v Speaker 1>the main character called A Man Without a Country, but no,

0:48:55.440 --> 0:49:00.360
<v Speaker 1>no one has. Really He's to me a pretty ripe

0:49:00.600 --> 0:49:03.279
<v Speaker 1>character for doing that, because, I mean, here's one of

0:49:03.320 --> 0:49:06.399
<v Speaker 1>the things I've always been stunned by. This guy's only

0:49:06.440 --> 0:49:09.080
<v Speaker 1>twenty years old when he first goes to the west,

0:49:10.280 --> 0:49:14.200
<v Speaker 1>and this is almost twenty years before Lewis and Clark.

0:49:15.080 --> 0:49:19.960
<v Speaker 1>I mean, this is long before Thomas Jefferson ever sends

0:49:19.960 --> 0:49:26.160
<v Speaker 1>out his expeditions. Here is this single guy. He probably

0:49:26.239 --> 0:49:29.640
<v Speaker 1>occasionally would go with companions. I know he had the

0:49:29.640 --> 0:49:32.160
<v Speaker 1>guy that he was about to take to Monticello to

0:49:32.239 --> 0:49:35.920
<v Speaker 1>take that paint stay in to Jefferson was a fairly

0:49:36.000 --> 0:49:39.239
<v Speaker 1>well known figure on the Southwestern frontier, a guy named

0:49:39.320 --> 0:49:42.000
<v Speaker 1>Joseph Talpoon who knew a lot of the languages and

0:49:42.080 --> 0:49:45.080
<v Speaker 1>usually went along with some of these traders. So I

0:49:45.120 --> 0:49:48.560
<v Speaker 1>think he Nolan probably went with somebody like that on

0:49:48.600 --> 0:49:51.280
<v Speaker 1>some of these trips. But I mean, holy count taking

0:49:51.280 --> 0:49:54.520
<v Speaker 1>off at the age of twenty, and on that particular trip,

0:49:54.560 --> 0:49:56.799
<v Speaker 1>that first trip, there's every evidence that he got as

0:49:56.840 --> 0:49:58.040
<v Speaker 1>far as New Mexico.

0:50:00.239 --> 0:50:03.000
<v Speaker 2>Just incredibly ballsy, man, I'm telling you.

0:50:02.680 --> 0:50:06.640
<v Speaker 1>You know, just taking out and he knew good and

0:50:06.680 --> 0:50:10.600
<v Speaker 1>well that the Spaniards regarded this as their territory. So

0:50:10.719 --> 0:50:13.440
<v Speaker 1>if they catch him, you know, the results are not

0:50:13.480 --> 0:50:18.680
<v Speaker 1>going to be good. But nonetheless, and he manages to

0:50:18.719 --> 0:50:22.279
<v Speaker 1>somehow ingratiate himself with all sorts of Native people while

0:50:22.280 --> 0:50:22.879
<v Speaker 1>he's doing it.

0:50:25.200 --> 0:50:28.960
<v Speaker 3>One thing that caught my eye in this episode is

0:50:30.239 --> 0:50:34.960
<v Speaker 3>a parallel with the buffalo robe trade and that, you know,

0:50:35.040 --> 0:50:40.240
<v Speaker 3>like when people went up to try to encourage tribes

0:50:40.280 --> 0:50:44.240
<v Speaker 3>to catch beaver. There's an account of a Mandan chief

0:50:44.320 --> 0:50:47.399
<v Speaker 3>telling someone from the Hudson's Bay Company if we could

0:50:47.400 --> 0:50:51.440
<v Speaker 3>catch him on horseback in a real hunt. That sounds fine,

0:50:51.560 --> 0:50:55.040
<v Speaker 3>but we're not about to do this crawling around in

0:50:55.080 --> 0:50:57.920
<v Speaker 3>the bowels of the earth thing. And both of these

0:50:58.920 --> 0:51:01.919
<v Speaker 3>you highlight. With the horse trade, like the buffalo rope trade,

0:51:01.920 --> 0:51:06.440
<v Speaker 3>it's based on a pre existing native economy, and so

0:51:06.560 --> 0:51:11.680
<v Speaker 3>the transition from indigenous economies to this global market economy

0:51:12.440 --> 0:51:16.239
<v Speaker 3>sort of happened seamlessly, whereas it's more fitful with the

0:51:16.400 --> 0:51:18.239
<v Speaker 3>with the beaver trade. And I just wonder if you

0:51:18.280 --> 0:51:21.799
<v Speaker 3>can sort of elaborate on that pattern that we see

0:51:21.880 --> 0:51:22.520
<v Speaker 3>again and again.

0:51:22.880 --> 0:51:25.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's the horse trade was very definitely based on

0:51:26.000 --> 0:51:32.719
<v Speaker 1>an earlier form of trade, exchange between Native people and

0:51:32.840 --> 0:51:35.480
<v Speaker 1>the you know, and there's some wonderful stories I didn't

0:51:35.560 --> 0:51:37.400
<v Speaker 1>I didn't tell them in this episode, but there's some

0:51:37.440 --> 0:51:44.080
<v Speaker 1>wonderful stories about about Native people first encountering someone approaching

0:51:44.120 --> 0:51:50.360
<v Speaker 1>them on horseback or with horses to trade to them. Uh.

0:51:50.400 --> 0:51:53.920
<v Speaker 1>And those those encounters are mostly farther north, among groups

0:51:53.960 --> 0:51:56.680
<v Speaker 1>like the Blackfeet and the accentib One, who are pretty

0:51:56.680 --> 0:52:01.280
<v Speaker 1>far removed from where horses are first wild in the West,

0:52:01.320 --> 0:52:05.240
<v Speaker 1>which is down in the southern West. But they kind

0:52:05.239 --> 0:52:07.560
<v Speaker 1>of you know, they look at the animals and they

0:52:07.560 --> 0:52:10.400
<v Speaker 1>don't exactly know how to react to them. They you know,

0:52:10.440 --> 0:52:15.360
<v Speaker 1>there's an account of some Blackfeet leader offering the first

0:52:15.400 --> 0:52:20.239
<v Speaker 1>horse he ever sees some buffalo meat to eat. Yeah,

0:52:20.280 --> 0:52:22.560
<v Speaker 1>and you know, the horse, of course shies and throws

0:52:22.560 --> 0:52:26.440
<v Speaker 1>its head, and he has to be told that's not

0:52:26.480 --> 0:52:30.560
<v Speaker 1>what these animals eat. They're more like they're like elk,

0:52:30.960 --> 0:52:34.640
<v Speaker 1>And that's the best. Usually when a native person who's

0:52:34.680 --> 0:52:36.880
<v Speaker 1>trading horses and taking them to a try for the

0:52:36.880 --> 0:52:39.960
<v Speaker 1>first time does so that's the way he does it.

0:52:40.480 --> 0:52:44.360
<v Speaker 1>But he uses the elk as the as the example.

0:52:45.080 --> 0:52:49.080
<v Speaker 1>So it requires the culture too. It's not just the animal.

0:52:49.120 --> 0:52:51.000
<v Speaker 1>You have to take the culture along with it. You

0:52:51.040 --> 0:52:56.000
<v Speaker 1>have to show people what the animal eats, how you

0:52:56.120 --> 0:52:58.359
<v Speaker 1>care for it, how you hobble it to keep it

0:52:58.400 --> 0:53:02.000
<v Speaker 1>close by and not running off, how you ride it,

0:53:02.640 --> 0:53:07.560
<v Speaker 1>how you do all these aspects of the equine arts

0:53:07.600 --> 0:53:12.279
<v Speaker 1>that all has to be taught. But it does fit

0:53:12.520 --> 0:53:18.760
<v Speaker 1>pretty seamlessly into an existing mode of exchange between Native people,

0:53:19.280 --> 0:53:22.000
<v Speaker 1>and it does transform some of those modes. As I

0:53:22.080 --> 0:53:25.359
<v Speaker 1>mentioned in the podcast, you know the reason we think

0:53:25.400 --> 0:53:29.640
<v Speaker 1>there's a division between northern Cheyennes and Southern Chyennes. Northern

0:53:29.719 --> 0:53:33.719
<v Speaker 1>Chyennes are today in Montana, Southern Chyennes and western Oklahoma.

0:53:34.200 --> 0:53:35.640
<v Speaker 2>Is I wanted to ask you about this.

0:53:35.800 --> 0:53:41.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, the southerns managed to find themselves or went far

0:53:42.040 --> 0:53:45.800
<v Speaker 1>enough south to get into the horse country and they stayed.

0:53:46.400 --> 0:53:50.120
<v Speaker 1>They were drawn like the Comanches, and the kiwas to

0:53:50.280 --> 0:53:53.120
<v Speaker 1>that part of the world where horses were first available,

0:53:53.400 --> 0:53:57.880
<v Speaker 1>either wild or easily stolen from Spanish settlements, and so

0:53:58.640 --> 0:54:02.840
<v Speaker 1>that became an the inducement for a segment of the

0:54:02.960 --> 0:54:07.239
<v Speaker 1>Cheyennes to go south and remain and not return to

0:54:07.320 --> 0:54:10.799
<v Speaker 1>the north, where the larger body of their tribe was.

0:54:11.920 --> 0:54:14.000
<v Speaker 1>But I mean, there are all kinds of wonderful stories.

0:54:14.000 --> 0:54:17.080
<v Speaker 1>I was just a reader on an article in the

0:54:17.200 --> 0:54:22.359
<v Speaker 1>journal Science about two years ago about some archaeological excavations

0:54:22.400 --> 0:54:28.480
<v Speaker 1>in Colorado where radiocarbon dating indicates and these were horse

0:54:28.560 --> 0:54:33.720
<v Speaker 1>bones and radiocarbon dating was indicating a time frame between

0:54:33.760 --> 0:54:39.919
<v Speaker 1>about sixteen twenty and sixteen seventy, which is before the

0:54:39.960 --> 0:54:44.120
<v Speaker 1>Pueblo Revolt, which we've long used as the moment when

0:54:44.160 --> 0:54:48.239
<v Speaker 1>horses really are spread across the West. And it's one

0:54:48.280 --> 0:54:51.319
<v Speaker 1>of the reasons I said in the podcast, and I

0:54:51.400 --> 0:54:54.799
<v Speaker 1>told the people who were working on this article. I mean,

0:54:54.840 --> 0:54:58.759
<v Speaker 1>there are accounts in the Spanish documents that what they

0:54:58.760 --> 0:55:02.799
<v Speaker 1>were doing when settled in New Mexico, they brought their

0:55:02.840 --> 0:55:06.000
<v Speaker 1>horse herds with them, of course, and sheep and goats

0:55:06.040 --> 0:55:09.680
<v Speaker 1>and cattle, and what they often did was to train

0:55:10.640 --> 0:55:15.160
<v Speaker 1>young Pueblo men to be the herders of these various

0:55:15.239 --> 0:55:18.719
<v Speaker 1>domestic animals, and some of those there are accounts that

0:55:18.800 --> 0:55:24.320
<v Speaker 1>some of these young Pueblo horse guys, who are hurting horses,

0:55:24.840 --> 0:55:29.319
<v Speaker 1>would also learn how to ride, and would mount up

0:55:29.440 --> 0:55:34.760
<v Speaker 1>and take off into a west where no native people

0:55:34.800 --> 0:55:37.799
<v Speaker 1>had ever really ridden before. And they clearly some of

0:55:37.800 --> 0:55:40.000
<v Speaker 1>them by sixteen fifty or so managed to get up

0:55:40.680 --> 0:55:43.600
<v Speaker 1>into Colorado, which seems to be the explanation for that site.

0:55:44.400 --> 0:55:49.400
<v Speaker 1>But yeah, it's a revolutionary the advent of a revolutionary

0:55:49.440 --> 0:55:52.359
<v Speaker 1>animal that's not been present in North America for eight

0:55:52.400 --> 0:55:57.160
<v Speaker 1>thousand years and it sort of transforms the native world

0:55:57.840 --> 0:56:02.000
<v Speaker 1>and their trade possibilities, and it becomes, particularly on the

0:56:02.560 --> 0:56:05.960
<v Speaker 1>southern half of the West, the kind of counterpart to

0:56:06.000 --> 0:56:07.560
<v Speaker 1>the fur trade up north.

0:56:08.680 --> 0:56:12.239
<v Speaker 2>I feel like tastes and horses must have changed a lot,

0:56:12.320 --> 0:56:15.720
<v Speaker 2>because these guys Nolan and others that are catching horses,

0:56:15.760 --> 0:56:20.280
<v Speaker 2>they're catching horses to just directly supply people's horse needs.

0:56:20.920 --> 0:56:24.319
<v Speaker 2>I remember I had a much older half a much

0:56:24.360 --> 0:56:27.080
<v Speaker 2>older half brother, and he'd always been out in Colorado

0:56:27.120 --> 0:56:28.840
<v Speaker 2>as a game warden and a guide. And I remember

0:56:28.840 --> 0:56:30.759
<v Speaker 2>being when I was ten years old, I went out

0:56:30.760 --> 0:56:33.280
<v Speaker 2>and hung out with him. We were driving around somewhere

0:56:33.320 --> 0:56:37.360
<v Speaker 2>and there's a bunch of wild horses, and I remember

0:56:37.440 --> 0:56:39.600
<v Speaker 2>him saying to me. I asked, because he had horses,

0:56:39.600 --> 0:56:42.240
<v Speaker 2>and I asked him about those horses, and I remember

0:56:42.320 --> 0:56:46.120
<v Speaker 2>him saying, they're all not heads. And I kept looking

0:56:46.160 --> 0:56:48.839
<v Speaker 2>at I remember this so clearly. I kept looking at him,

0:56:48.840 --> 0:56:51.879
<v Speaker 2>trying to understand what that meant, what he meant by

0:56:52.000 --> 0:56:55.239
<v Speaker 2>not like a notthead. Then I realized he's saying, you know,

0:56:55.320 --> 0:57:00.400
<v Speaker 2>these they're all idiots or whatever. So is it that

0:57:00.440 --> 0:57:05.280
<v Speaker 2>people have just gotten I'm anything, I'm anything but a horseman.

0:57:05.480 --> 0:57:07.759
<v Speaker 2>Is it people that have just changed their tastes for

0:57:07.880 --> 0:57:11.479
<v Speaker 2>other breeds because now these wild these feral horses, wild

0:57:11.520 --> 0:57:13.120
<v Speaker 2>horses what eevery you want to call them, depending on

0:57:13.160 --> 0:57:17.280
<v Speaker 2>your how you view the issue. They're not like extra

0:57:17.680 --> 0:57:20.840
<v Speaker 2>extremely popular as riding horses, right.

0:57:20.960 --> 0:57:23.560
<v Speaker 1>No, they're not. I mean, you know, and they've they've

0:57:23.640 --> 0:57:28.400
<v Speaker 1>been wild, and so they're difficult to you know, horses

0:57:28.440 --> 0:57:33.000
<v Speaker 1>are not particularly easy to train to ride anyway. I

0:57:33.040 --> 0:57:36.600
<v Speaker 1>mean I have had horses. I had horses for many years.

0:57:36.680 --> 0:57:41.400
<v Speaker 1>I I uh uh. I had a horse when I

0:57:41.480 --> 0:57:43.520
<v Speaker 1>was living in Texas and I took him to Montana.

0:57:43.800 --> 0:57:47.520
<v Speaker 1>It was a paint horse that I got in North Dakota. Uh.

0:57:47.560 --> 0:57:50.520
<v Speaker 1>He was supposed to have been a horse that sitting

0:57:50.520 --> 0:57:53.440
<v Speaker 1>bulls people had taken to Canada and then when they

0:57:53.480 --> 0:57:56.720
<v Speaker 1>came back to the States, they brought the ancestors of

0:57:56.720 --> 0:57:59.200
<v Speaker 1>this horse back that probably that probably just cost me

0:57:59.240 --> 0:58:03.800
<v Speaker 1>an extra hundred dose. It was a good story horse,

0:58:04.120 --> 0:58:07.760
<v Speaker 1>special horse. But this horse I got as a five

0:58:07.800 --> 0:58:10.600
<v Speaker 1>month old colt, and by the time he was about

0:58:10.600 --> 0:58:12.520
<v Speaker 1>a year and a half old, I was uh. I

0:58:12.600 --> 0:58:15.200
<v Speaker 1>was first putting blankets on his back, and then I

0:58:15.240 --> 0:58:17.960
<v Speaker 1>put a buffalo robe on his back, and then I

0:58:18.000 --> 0:58:22.280
<v Speaker 1>started leaning over him and finally sliding over him, and

0:58:22.400 --> 0:58:25.000
<v Speaker 1>after doing that a few times, I swung my leg

0:58:25.480 --> 0:58:30.600
<v Speaker 1>over him and he never bucked one time. We just

0:58:31.000 --> 0:58:33.480
<v Speaker 1>and then I for a long time, I didn't put

0:58:33.480 --> 0:58:35.080
<v Speaker 1>a bridle in his mouth. I just rode him with

0:58:35.120 --> 0:58:37.880
<v Speaker 1>a hackamore, which of course is a leather band across

0:58:37.920 --> 0:58:41.640
<v Speaker 1>his nose. And so I rode him pretty much in

0:58:41.720 --> 0:58:43.880
<v Speaker 1>the way, bareback and with a hack of more, pretty

0:58:43.920 --> 0:58:46.120
<v Speaker 1>much in the way a lot of Native people would

0:58:46.160 --> 0:58:50.680
<v Speaker 1>have ridden their horses. And he was quite He certainly was, uh,

0:58:50.880 --> 0:58:54.840
<v Speaker 1>you know, a knucklehead later in his life, but when

0:58:54.920 --> 0:58:57.480
<v Speaker 1>he was till the time he was about five years old,

0:58:58.120 --> 0:59:00.480
<v Speaker 1>he was a really good horse. And then I moved

0:59:00.480 --> 0:59:02.760
<v Speaker 1>off to Montana, and I had to leave him in

0:59:02.760 --> 0:59:05.400
<v Speaker 1>Texas for about three years before I could create a

0:59:05.440 --> 0:59:08.400
<v Speaker 1>situation to bring him up. And I had turned him

0:59:08.440 --> 0:59:10.720
<v Speaker 1>loose in a pasture with a bunch of other horses,

0:59:10.720 --> 0:59:14.200
<v Speaker 1>and he learned a bunch of bad habits, and I

0:59:14.240 --> 0:59:17.240
<v Speaker 1>was never able to yeah, and so I ended up

0:59:17.280 --> 0:59:20.040
<v Speaker 1>getting other horses after that that we were better than

0:59:20.080 --> 0:59:22.200
<v Speaker 1>he was. But I did have that experience which was

0:59:22.480 --> 0:59:26.640
<v Speaker 1>a very interesting kind of a replication maybe of how

0:59:26.720 --> 0:59:30.960
<v Speaker 1>Native people would have done it, and it was not

0:59:31.240 --> 0:59:34.640
<v Speaker 1>really very difficult at all. He was really he was

0:59:34.640 --> 0:59:37.680
<v Speaker 1>really pretty easy to wasn't really breaking him. It was

0:59:37.760 --> 0:59:40.520
<v Speaker 1>just finally getting on him and riding him, and he

0:59:40.600 --> 0:59:43.760
<v Speaker 1>was pretty easy to do that with. But it's you know,

0:59:45.240 --> 0:59:47.840
<v Speaker 1>one of the things I didn't I didn't include, and

0:59:47.880 --> 0:59:49.960
<v Speaker 1>I didn't include a lot of things that I know

0:59:50.040 --> 0:59:52.320
<v Speaker 1>about this because I've written about it in other places,

0:59:52.320 --> 0:59:59.400
<v Speaker 1>but in the episode, I didn't talk about things that

1:00:00.640 --> 1:00:06.840
<v Speaker 1>are fairly I suppose you could say explanatory in terms

1:00:06.880 --> 1:00:12.000
<v Speaker 1>like that, because, for example, in that Berlandier story about

1:00:12.400 --> 1:00:18.400
<v Speaker 1>how Hispanic mustangers in Texas would catch those horses and

1:00:18.440 --> 1:00:22.680
<v Speaker 1>how you would lose sometimes eighty percent of them in

1:00:22.720 --> 1:00:25.680
<v Speaker 1>the process of corralling them and catching them because they

1:00:25.720 --> 1:00:28.600
<v Speaker 1>would trample over one another and then they would die

1:00:28.640 --> 1:00:32.560
<v Speaker 1>of as the terms went, of broken heartedness overcapture or

1:00:32.880 --> 1:00:35.840
<v Speaker 1>nervous rage over capture. The other thing he said that

1:00:35.880 --> 1:00:41.680
<v Speaker 1>I didn't include. He said that these Hispanic messoneros in

1:00:41.800 --> 1:00:46.760
<v Speaker 1>Texas could render those horses, the ones that survived, they

1:00:46.760 --> 1:00:51.840
<v Speaker 1>could render them green broke in less than an hour. Really,

1:00:51.880 --> 1:00:55.520
<v Speaker 1>they could get them out of those corrals and within

1:00:55.560 --> 1:00:58.840
<v Speaker 1>an hour they would have them green broke. And that's

1:00:58.880 --> 1:01:02.080
<v Speaker 1>what happened with a lot of the horses that those

1:01:02.160 --> 1:01:05.520
<v Speaker 1>mustangers in the twentieth century up in the Montana Badlands.

1:01:06.320 --> 1:01:10.000
<v Speaker 1>They were catching wild horses and selling them to the

1:01:10.040 --> 1:01:15.160
<v Speaker 1>buyers for the Allies to use them in World War One,

1:01:15.280 --> 1:01:18.640
<v Speaker 1>and they were just spending an hour or so green

1:01:18.720 --> 1:01:21.720
<v Speaker 1>breaking them. And so I've always had, because I've had

1:01:21.760 --> 1:01:25.720
<v Speaker 1>horses and experience what horses can be like, I've always

1:01:25.800 --> 1:01:28.320
<v Speaker 1>had the idea that, oh my god, they took those

1:01:28.360 --> 1:01:34.760
<v Speaker 1>horses over to France and let brit soldiers who didn't

1:01:34.800 --> 1:01:38.080
<v Speaker 1>know anything about riding horses get on them. I mean,

1:01:38.160 --> 1:01:42.200
<v Speaker 1>what a friggin rodeo that would have been with animals

1:01:42.240 --> 1:01:45.640
<v Speaker 1>that you know, were actually wild mustangs. I mean, it

1:01:45.680 --> 1:01:49.040
<v Speaker 1>would have been a crazy thing, no doubt. Someone must

1:01:49.080 --> 1:01:51.520
<v Speaker 1>have written the you know, a journal entry or.

1:01:51.440 --> 1:01:52.080
<v Speaker 3>Something about it.

1:01:52.680 --> 1:01:53.880
<v Speaker 2>Well, thanks, Dan, appreciate it.

1:01:53.960 --> 1:02:02.840
<v Speaker 1>How you bet women say other games saying

1:02:02.880 --> 1:02:06.160
<v Speaker 2>The music tree hundred visitation