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Speaker 1: Simultaneous with the appearance of the United States in the

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Speaker 1: advance of its frontier westward to the Mississippi River, and

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Speaker 1: intriguing trade developed around vast herds of horses that had

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Speaker 1: become wild in the West, an animal economy that outlasted

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Speaker 1: the fur trade but collapsed in the nineteen twenties in

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Speaker 1: the face of modernity. I'm Dan Flores and this is

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Speaker 1: the American West, brought to you by Velvet Buck Wine,

8
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Speaker 1: where the hunt meets the harvest. A portion of each

9
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Speaker 1: bottle goes to support backcountry hunters and anglers. Limited supply

10
00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:58,200
Speaker 1: available at Velvetbuck Vineyards dot Com. Enjoy responsibly bringing home

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Speaker 1: all the pretty horses. In the summer of eighteen thirty four,

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Speaker 1: two years after his famous adventure painting the tribes of

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Speaker 1: the Missouri River and Northern Plains, artists George Catlan got

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Speaker 1: his first opportunity to portray the counterpoint world the southern

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Speaker 1: Plains of what is now western Oklahoma. Fate and luck

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Speaker 1: offered Catlan a singular chance to see firsthand the similarities

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Speaker 1: and differences between these two regions of the early nineteenth

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Speaker 1: century American West. On the Missouri, Catlan had traveled and

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Speaker 1: lived with fur traders from the big companies, and had

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Speaker 1: duly painted and mourned the great destruction then underway there

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Speaker 1: on the southern prairies. However, the artists saw relatively little

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Speaker 1: of the American economic engines that were destroying so many

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Speaker 1: ecologies in the northern West. On these southern prairies, it

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Speaker 1: was not fur bearers, but an altogether different animal that

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Speaker 1: caught his atte traveling in the vicinity of the Wichita

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Speaker 1: Mountains that summer of eighteen thirty four. This was how

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Speaker 1: he described his impressions. The tract of country over which

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Speaker 1: we passed is stocked not only with buffaloes, but with

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Speaker 1: numerous bands of wild horses, many of which we saw

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Speaker 1: every day Catlan went on. The wild horse of these

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Speaker 1: regions is a small but very powerful animal, with an

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Speaker 1: exceedingly prominent eye, sharp nose, high nostril, small feet, and

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Speaker 1: delicate leg, and undoubtedly have sprung from a stock introduced

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Speaker 1: by the Spaniards. No other denizen of the plains is

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Speaker 1: so wild and so sagacious as the horse Catlan rode.

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Speaker 1: So remarkably keen is their eye that they will generally

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Speaker 1: run at the site when they are a mild, distant,

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Speaker 1: and when in motion, will seldom stop short of three

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Speaker 1: or four miles. Like many others, the artists was struck

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Speaker 1: with the beauty of the horse in its wild state.

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Speaker 1: Some were milk white, some jet black, others were sorrel

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Speaker 1: and bay and cream color, and many were an iron gray,

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Speaker 1: and others were pied, containing a variety of colors on

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Speaker 1: the same animal. Their manes were profuse and hanging in

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Speaker 1: the wildest confusion over their necks and faces, and their

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Speaker 1: long tails swept the ground interestingly. At almost the same

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Speaker 1: point in time, back in the horse country of Kentucky,

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Speaker 1: John James Audubon, Catlan's fellow painter, wrote that he'd become

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Speaker 1: acquainted with a man who had just returned from the

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Speaker 1: country in the neighborhood of the headwaters of the Arkansas River,

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Speaker 1: where he'd obtained from the O Sages a recently captured

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Speaker 1: four year old wild horse named Barrow. While the little

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Speaker 1: horse was by no means handsome, as Ottoman said, and

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Speaker 1: had cost only thirty five dollars in trade goods, Ottobon

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Speaker 1: was intrigued enough to try him out. He proved a delight.

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Speaker 1: He had a sweet gait that covered forty miles a day.

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Speaker 1: He leapt over woodland logs as lightly as an elk,

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Speaker 1: was cautious, but a quick study in new situations, and

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Speaker 1: strong and fearless when coach to swim the Ohio River.

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Speaker 1: He was steady when birds flushed, and Audobon shot them

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Speaker 1: from the saddle to top. All he left a superb

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Speaker 1: three hundred dollars horse in the dust. Audoban quickly bought

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Speaker 1: barrel for fifty dollars silver, and, gloating over his discovery,

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Speaker 1: concluded that the importation of horses of this kind from

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Speaker 1: the Western prairies might improve our breeds generally. With an

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Speaker 1: audition like barrows, one is tempted to say, no kidding.

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Speaker 1: But what intrigues me most about Cantlon's and Audobon's wild

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Speaker 1: horse epiphanies is that they seemed almost clueless about a

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Speaker 1: phenomenon that had been underway in the West for almost

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Speaker 1: two centuries. Simultaneous with the evolution of the fur trade

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Speaker 1: in the northern West, the wild horse herds of the

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Speaker 1: Great Plains had generated an economy of capture in trade

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Speaker 1: that had transformed the native world. It had dominated much

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Speaker 1: of the Western trade. In European settlements from Louisiana to

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Speaker 1: California since the seventeen eighties, and wild horses from herbs

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Speaker 1: like those Catlan saw had been driven up the Natchez

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Speaker 1: Trace to markets in Kentucky and the South at least

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Speaker 1: since seventeen ninety. That neither of these artists seemed aware

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Speaker 1: of this speaks volumes about the underground character of the

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Speaker 1: early horse trade in the West, which was never a

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Speaker 1: corporate venture like the fur trade, but usually carried out

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Speaker 1: by private, independent mustangers. That word an English garbling of

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Speaker 1: the Spanish mestanio. The presence of wild horses in the

84
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Speaker 1: West first drew the attention of most Americans with Louisiana purchase.

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Speaker 1: By then, wild horses had been running free in the

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Speaker 1: California valleys, in the deserts of the Southwest, and especially

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Speaker 1: on the Great Plains for many decades, But as was

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Speaker 1: true of so many aspects of the West, it was

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Speaker 1: Thomas Jefferson, during the years when he was serving as

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Speaker 1: Vice President in the Adams administration, who was the first

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Speaker 1: American to understand that horses had become a part of

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Speaker 1: the natural history and economy of the West. In his

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Speaker 1: conversations about the West, with his informants. In seventeen ninety eight,

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Speaker 1: Jefferson began to hear stories about an intriguing individual known

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Speaker 1: as the Mexican Traveler. The Traveler's real name was Philip Nolan,

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Speaker 1: and he was an American adventurer who Jefferson discovered had

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Speaker 1: journeyed numerous times into the unknown Southwest, returning driving herds

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Speaker 1: of captured and traded horses into Louisiana and then up

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Speaker 1: the Natchezt Trace to the horse markets of Kentucky. Jefferson

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Speaker 1: was fascinated. He wanted to know more. The image that

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Speaker 1: emerges from his queries is of a shadowy character, a literate, athletic,

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Speaker 1: and adventurous young man who was confident enough in his

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Speaker 1: abilities to attempt things no one else had tried. The

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Speaker 1: Mississippi scientist, Sir William Dunbar knew Nolan, and he told

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Speaker 1: Jefferson he thought the young man lacked sufficient education and

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Speaker 1: was flawed by eccentricities many and great, as Dunbar put it. Nevertheless,

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Speaker 1: he added, Nolan was not destitute of romantic principles of honor,

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Speaker 1: united to the highest personal courage. Other informant, a lawyer

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Speaker 1: in New Orleans, told Jefferson that, in his opinion, Nolan

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Speaker 1: was an extraordinary character, one whom nature seems to have

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Speaker 1: formed for enterprises at which the rest of mankind are incapable.

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Speaker 1: As early as seventeen ninety, Jefferson learned, when Nolan was

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Speaker 1: barely twenty, he had embarked on a two year journey

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Speaker 1: into the West, ultimately meeting and traveling with Wichitas and Comanches,

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Speaker 1: and giving those tough appraisers of human nature a quite

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Speaker 1: favorable early impression of Americans. On this trip, Nolan apparently

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Speaker 1: journeyed all the way to New Mexico, meanwhile learning that

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Speaker 1: the numerous Southern Plains tribes were dissatisfied with Spanish trade

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Speaker 1: and hoped to replace their former trade partners the French,

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Speaker 1: with a new source of guns and European goods. The

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Speaker 1: Osages from farther east were enemies of these Western groups,

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Speaker 1: and making every effort to block traders from Saint Louis

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Speaker 1: from contacting the tribes of the Deep Plains. Nolan had

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Speaker 1: in mind addressing that opening from a different direction. What

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Speaker 1: really caused Jefferson's attention, though, was that Nolan had not

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Speaker 1: returned from the West with the usual Indian processed firs.

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Speaker 1: It was horses he had brought back from these forays,

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Speaker 1: some of them wild ones that he and his associates

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Speaker 1: had captured. Nolan himself told his friends that he found

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Speaker 1: the savage life less praising in practice than speculation. I

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Speaker 1: could not indianfy my heart, he said. But he had

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Speaker 1: gone on a second expedition into the Deep Plains in

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Speaker 1: seventeen ninety four, and a third one in seventeen ninety six.

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Speaker 1: He returned with two hundred and fifty horses in seventeen

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Speaker 1: ninety six drove them to Frankfurt, Connecticut, and that had

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Speaker 1: brought Nolan and his horses to the attention of important

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Speaker 1: people who now invested in him. So, in seventeen ninety seven,

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Speaker 1: packing seven thousand dollars worth of trade goods and with

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Speaker 1: what he said were twelve good rifles and but one coward,

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Speaker 1: he launched a fourth expedition. When he returned in seventeen

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Speaker 1: ninety eight, he was driving a herd, some estimated at

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Speaker 1: twenty five hundred animals, some of which brought one hundred

143
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Speaker 1: and fifty dollars a piece in Kentucky. At this point

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Speaker 1: in Nolan's career, he found a letter awaiting him, requesting

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Speaker 1: natural history information on Western horses at the only moment

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Speaker 1: in the age of the world, it read when the

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Speaker 1: horse might be studied in its wild state. Those words

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Speaker 1: were from Vice President Thomas Jefferson, who wanted badly to

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Speaker 1: have a conversation with Nolan about the West. So Jefferson

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Speaker 1: wrote a follow up letter, telling Nolan he very much

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Speaker 1: wanted to purchase one of those Western horses, which I

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Speaker 1: am told are so remarkable for the singularity and beauty

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Speaker 1: of their colors and forms. According to several informants, young

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Speaker 1: Nolan and an inhabitant of the Western country, a master

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Speaker 1: of the fascinating language of Indian hand signs, who was

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Speaker 1: probably the same Joseph Talapoon who would go west with

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Speaker 1: Anthony Glass, departed for Virginia in eighteen hundred with a

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Speaker 1: fine paint stallion for Jefferson. Somehow, though neither Nolan nor

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Speaker 1: the paint horse ever got to Monticello. I'm tempted to

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Speaker 1: guess that somewhere along the way Nolan lost jefferson stallion

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Speaker 1: on a bet or in a game of chance. So

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Speaker 1: the West's Mexican traveler stood up the man about to

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Speaker 1: be elected the third president of the United States. Nolan

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Speaker 1: was now in preparation for a fifth and his fate

165
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Speaker 1: would have it final expedition to the Although he claimed

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Speaker 1: that I have long been tired of wild horses, the

167
00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:09,480
Speaker 1: money was just too good. This time he took two

168
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Speaker 1: dozen men and a large quantity of goods, but by

169
00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:16,760
Speaker 1: now Spanish officials had grown increasingly alarmed at Nolan's trips.

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Speaker 1: In the seventeen eighties, Spain had proclaimed wild horses and

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Speaker 1: her territories government property, and had placed at tax on

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Speaker 1: captured animals. That meant that any horses Nolan captured or

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Speaker 1: traded for would be illegal contraband. Yet by December of

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Speaker 1: eighteen hundred, the party was far out on the southern

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Speaker 1: plains and what seems to have been Nolan's favorite mustanging country,

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Speaker 1: the Grand Prairie, southwest of today's Fort Worth. There they

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Speaker 1: built corrals and started capturing wild bands, but in March

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Speaker 1: of eighteen oh one, Indian scouts for a Spanish force

179
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Speaker 1: sent out to arrest Nolan located them. When Nolan refused

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Speaker 1: to surrender, the Spaniards attacked, killing Nolan and capturing more

181
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Speaker 1: than a dozen of his men. At the age of

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Speaker 1: thirty one the Mexican travelers pre Lewis and clark adventures

183
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Speaker 1: in the West were over. Thomas Jefferson never got to

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Speaker 1: understand what deep time science and history have now told

185
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Speaker 1: us about the West's wild horses. It's a story that

186
00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:35,520
Speaker 1: commences with an irony. Old worlders understood that their ancestors

187
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Speaker 1: had brought the horse to the Americas, and that, after

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Speaker 1: initial fear of it, indigenous peoples in both North and

189
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Speaker 1: South America had adopted the animal into their lives, where

190
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Speaker 1: it had revolutionized their cultures. Yet in the depths of

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Speaker 1: time lay a surprising story. Horses are actually evolutionary natives

192
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Speaker 1: of North America. Their ancestors had begun their into the

193
00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:06,160
Speaker 1: modern horse on this continent fifty seven million years earlier,

194
00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:10,800
Speaker 1: after a vast presence where horses were found from Alaska

195
00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:16,640
Speaker 1: to Florida. The irony deepened profoundly by eight thousand years ago,

196
00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:21,000
Speaker 1: horses so similar to the modern version that palaeontologists have

197
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Speaker 1: difficulty telling them apart unaccountably when extinct throughout the Americas. Meanwhile,

198
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Speaker 1: the horses that had migrated from America into Africa, Asia,

199
00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:36,280
Speaker 1: and Europe survived to become domesticated by humans. Four to

200
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Speaker 1: six thousand years ago. So the barb horses that danced

201
00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:45,360
Speaker 1: and nickered beneath the Spaniards were ancient American horses, their

202
00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:50,640
Speaker 1: zebra like legs and dorsal backstripes still intact. Now they

203
00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:54,280
Speaker 1: had returned to their evolutionary homeland, except it was a

204
00:14:54,320 --> 00:15:00,080
Speaker 1: homeland with many of their Pleistocene predators gone. This, this

205
00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:03,200
Speaker 1: big history, is why horses were so successful in going

206
00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:07,800
Speaker 1: wild in the West. By the sixteen fifties, the Southwest

207
00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:12,240
Speaker 1: Native peoples were riding horses into the very landscapes that

208
00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:17,200
Speaker 1: had shaped horses hoofs, teeth, and behavioral patterns for millions

209
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Speaker 1: of years. When the Pueblo Indians sixteen eighty revolt liberated

210
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Speaker 1: Spanish livestock in and around Santa Fe, horses and horse

211
00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:31,000
Speaker 1: culture famously made their way decade by decade to tribes

212
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Speaker 1: northward up the Rockies. But in the chaos, many animals

213
00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:40,520
Speaker 1: also ran loose into the country. Meanwhile, in Texas, the

214
00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:45,440
Speaker 1: Spanish Franciscans often turned surplus mission livestock out into the wild,

215
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Speaker 1: so by seventeen fifteen, from Texas to New Mexico, the

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Speaker 1: whole country featured wild horses. Rapidly replicating Pleistocene America. Three

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Speaker 1: quarters of a century later, the same fine dominon was

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Speaker 1: underway in California. By the time Americans were eyeing the West,

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00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:12,440
Speaker 1: across the region's southern latitudes, wild horse herds had become enormous.

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Speaker 1: A Spanish bishop in Texas road in eighteen oh five

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Speaker 1: that everywhere he traveled there were great herds of horses

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Speaker 1: and mares found close to the roads, and herds of

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Speaker 1: four to six thousand by eighteen hundred. Residents of California's

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Speaker 1: missions and presidios, having had virtually no horses in the

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Speaker 1: seventeen seventies, regarded escaped horses in the surrounding countryside as

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Speaker 1: such threats to grass and water that they shot them

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Speaker 1: on sight. On the Great Plains, wildhorses now struck observers

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Speaker 1: as an iconic experience of the region. One traveler was

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Speaker 1: stunned to see that, as he put it, the prairie

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Speaker 1: near the horizon seemed to be moving with long undulations,

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Speaker 1: like the way waves of an ocean. Then realized that

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Speaker 1: the ocean waves were actually herds of mustangs blanketing the

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Speaker 1: entire prairie. Another wrote that as far as the eye

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Speaker 1: could extend, nothing over the dead level prairie was visible

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Speaker 1: except the dense mass of horses, and the trampling of

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Speaker 1: their hoofs sounded like the roar of the surf on

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Speaker 1: a rocky coast. Wandering herds of wild horses are so numerous.

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Speaker 1: Another wrote that the land is covered with paths, making

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Speaker 1: it appear the most populated place in the world. In Pleisscene, America,

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Speaker 1: horses had sometimes made up as much as twenty five

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Speaker 1: percent of the biomass of grazing animals, and by the

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Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds, the wild bands were heading in that direction.

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Speaker 1: Writer J. Frank Doby once guessed that by eighteen hundred

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Speaker 1: there were two million wild horses in the West, a

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Speaker 1: million of them on the prairie south of the Arkansas River.

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Speaker 1: On the Southern Plains, a million wild horses would have

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Speaker 1: been about twelve percent of bison numbers. So from seed

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Speaker 1: herds not just in New Mexico and Texas, but California,

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Speaker 1: the Columbia Plateau, and Wyoming's Red Desert, wild horses were

250
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Speaker 1: spreading out all over the West. The Southern Plains herds

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Speaker 1: drew Indian peoples from everywhere, bringing utes, Shoshonees, crows, Arapahos, Cheyennes, Lakotas,

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Speaker 1: even Blackfeet, and most famously Comanches to the horse country

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Speaker 1: below the Arkansas River, as with bison and beavers. Useful

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Speaker 1: animals and such enormous numbers filled the human mind with

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Speaker 1: thoughts of acquisition, wealth and power, with thoughts, in other words,

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Speaker 1: of a potential economy. I've imagined this economy as a

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Speaker 1: great horse funnel which took hundreds of thousands of horses

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Speaker 1: from its flared in on the plains and then funneled

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Speaker 1: them to trade markets like Saint Louis, Nakotish, Natchez, and

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Speaker 1: New Orleans. The demand came from Americans on the homestead

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Speaker 1: or frontier, who needed animal powered energy to push westward

262
00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:22,800
Speaker 1: from the Appalachians to the Mississippi and beyond. As with

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Speaker 1: the fur trade farther north, the Native people began as

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Speaker 1: and remained major players in the trade, in good part

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Speaker 1: because the horse trade was based on a pre existing

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Speaker 1: native economy involving inner tribal exchange. From the start, horses

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Speaker 1: were such revolutionary agents of cultural change for Native people

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Speaker 1: that exchange of the animals became a central feature of

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Speaker 1: Western Indian life. There were annual horse fairs in places

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Speaker 1: like the Black Hills, and it fixed villages like those

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Speaker 1: of the Mandani Dotsas on the Missouri and the Wichitas

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Speaker 1: on the Red River. Even middleman groups emerged. The horse

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Speaker 1: trade even contributed to the breakup of the Cheyennes into

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Speaker 1: two geographic divisions, a northern one and a southern one

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Speaker 1: that became a central player in distributing horses northward up

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Speaker 1: the planes. The Comanches, another group drawn from the north

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Speaker 1: to the southern plains because of horses, literally reconceived themselves

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Speaker 1: in the context of horses and trade. They raided other

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Speaker 1: tribes and Spanish ranches for both horses and children, training

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Speaker 1: the latter as herders and an economy that became more

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Speaker 1: pastoral by the decade. They marketed their animals northward to

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Speaker 1: horse poor Northern Plains tribes, westward to the New Mexicans

283
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Speaker 1: via trade fairs in places like Pacos Picres and Taos,

284
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Speaker 1: and eventually eastward to the Americans to a significant agree.

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00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:04,919
Speaker 1: Then the native people created the Western horse trade, built

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00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:09,399
Speaker 1: their status systems around horse ownership, and used the horse

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00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:14,760
Speaker 1: trade to manipulate Euro Americans anxious for profits and alliances

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00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:18,919
Speaker 1: with them. There were downsides. As with groups like the

289
00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:25,200
Speaker 1: Comanches and Lakotas, the horse trade produced territorial expansion. Entire

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00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:30,280
Speaker 1: cottonwood groves along rivers like the Arkansas also disappeared as

291
00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:34,639
Speaker 1: tribes endeavored to get their herds through snowy winters, and

292
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Speaker 1: because winters on the northern plains could be hard on

293
00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:42,680
Speaker 1: horse survival, Raids for replenishment of tribal stock rippled from

294
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Speaker 1: north to south every spring, as happened in the fur

295
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Speaker 1: trade with the mountain Men. A point came when the

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00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:56,680
Speaker 1: Americans attempted a similar step. With millions of horses running free,

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Speaker 1: they tried their hand at capture. Catching wild horses may

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00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:06,800
Speaker 1: have begun as a North African or Iberian technique. By

299
00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:10,640
Speaker 1: the time Americans entered the horse economy, many different peoples

300
00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:13,800
Speaker 1: seem to have mastered it. Nolan may have learned the

301
00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:17,520
Speaker 1: art from the French and Spanish settlers of Louisiana towns

302
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:21,800
Speaker 1: like Bayou Pierre and Nacotish, but the best descriptions of

303
00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:26,800
Speaker 1: trade volume mustanging strategies came from a third group involved

304
00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:32,240
Speaker 1: in the horse trade, the Hispanic residents of Texas. In

305
00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:36,320
Speaker 1: the first six years of Spain's tax on captured wild horses.

306
00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:43,160
Speaker 1: Texas horse catchers paid up on seventeen thousand captured wild horses,

307
00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:45,880
Speaker 1: a great many of which appear to have ended up

308
00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:50,760
Speaker 1: east of the Mississippi River, carrying American farmers and merchants,

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Speaker 1: and supplying mounts for Southeastern Indians, like the Chickasaws and

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Speaker 1: the Seminoles. As one San Antonio official put it, the

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00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:03,800
Speaker 1: number of mustangs and all these environs is so countless

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00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:07,480
Speaker 1: that if anyone were capable of taming them and caring

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Speaker 1: for them, he could acquire a supply sufficient to furnish

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Speaker 1: an army. But this multitude is causing us such grave

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00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:21,159
Speaker 1: damage that it is often necessary to shoot them. Catching

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00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:25,200
Speaker 1: wildhorses in volume became a kind of wilderness art form,

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Speaker 1: with its own material culture, its own internal terminology. It

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Speaker 1: differed from trapping by aiming at live animal capture, although

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00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:40,280
Speaker 1: making that happen was more difficult than you'd think. We

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00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:43,960
Speaker 1: know all this because of a French scientist named Jean

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00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:48,560
Speaker 1: Louis Brelandier, who in the eighteen twenties witnessed and described

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00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:54,560
Speaker 1: the process of volume wild horse capture. Once mustangers were

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00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:58,679
Speaker 1: among the herds and stallion bands. The first step was

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00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:02,280
Speaker 1: understanding the land escape to know how to cite what

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00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:08,920
Speaker 1: Burlandier called the corral. These are immense enclosures situated close

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00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:12,720
Speaker 1: to some pond, he wrote. They were built of planted

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00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:16,640
Speaker 1: posts with horizontals last to them with rawhide, and were

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Speaker 1: large enough that, once inside, a herd could be swept

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Speaker 1: into a circling milling confusion. The entrance, Berlandier wrote, is

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Speaker 1: placed in such a way that it forms a long corridor,

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Speaker 1: one consisting of brush wings fanning out a half mile

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00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:37,800
Speaker 1: or more from the capture pen itself, and usually oriented

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00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:43,000
Speaker 1: towards the south, so that prevailing southwesterly winds would envelop

334
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Speaker 1: an approaching herd in its own dust cloud, blinding it.

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Speaker 1: To start the action, mustangers divided themselves into three groups,

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Speaker 1: each with different rolls. A group of well mounted riders,

337
00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:01,720
Speaker 1: the Adventadores, had the task of startling the herd into

338
00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:05,400
Speaker 1: flight and pushing it towards the funnel leading to the pin.

339
00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:09,119
Speaker 1: The herd would find itself squeezed into a flight path

340
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:13,159
Speaker 1: by a second group of mustangers, the Questos, who were

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00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:17,560
Speaker 1: the most skilled riders and whose role consists of conducting

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00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:21,720
Speaker 1: that dreadful mass of living beings by riding full gallop

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00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:24,879
Speaker 1: along the flanks and gathering there in the midst of

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00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:29,920
Speaker 1: suffocating dust the partial herds, which sometimes unite at the

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00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:33,840
Speaker 1: sound of the terror of a large herd. Burlandier rode

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Speaker 1: at the moment of truth as the wide eyed horses

347
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:41,200
Speaker 1: were sweeping at breakneck speed into the trap. A third

348
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:46,480
Speaker 1: group of mustangers, the inseradoris, were charged with closing the gate,

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00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:50,199
Speaker 1: sometimes dashing in to open it for an instant to

350
00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:55,359
Speaker 1: allow stallions in older horses to escape. The scenes that

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00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:59,399
Speaker 1: followed had such an emotional load that Messioneiro's had a

352
00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:04,240
Speaker 1: special vocabulary for them. It was a jargon rife with

353
00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:10,760
Speaker 1: the language of death. Some horses died from sentimiento are

354
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:18,160
Speaker 1: broken heartedness over capture. Others from DSpace show nervous rage.

355
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Speaker 1: Another term of art was adiando stinking. It referred to

356
00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:28,800
Speaker 1: a capture corral ruined for use from the effect of

357
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:32,800
Speaker 1: having been too often jammed with panicked and dying animals.

358
00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:39,040
Speaker 1: Burlandier ended his story this way. When these animals find

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00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:44,200
Speaker 1: themselves enclosed, the first to enter fruitlessly search for exits,

360
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:48,800
Speaker 1: and those in the rear trample over the first. It

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00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:52,200
Speaker 1: is rare that in one of these chases. A large

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00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:55,080
Speaker 1: part of the horses thus trapped do not kill one

363
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:59,439
Speaker 1: another in their efforts to escape. It has happened that

364
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:03,000
Speaker 1: the Messing Arrows have trapped at one swoop more than

365
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:13,080
Speaker 1: one thousand horses, of which not a fifth remained. What

366
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:18,120
Speaker 1: made these Southern planes horse trade expeditions shadowy and northern

367
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:22,360
Speaker 1: planes for activities well known, was actually a simple difference.

368
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:28,240
Speaker 1: The horse trade featured live, not dead animals, so horses

369
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:32,560
Speaker 1: became their own transportation to markets. There was no need

370
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:38,159
Speaker 1: for corporate investment in freight wagons, steamboats, or shipping. That

371
00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:42,960
Speaker 1: also meant a meager historical trail in an economy for

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00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:47,600
Speaker 1: which so few day by day accounts exist. Eighteen o

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Speaker 1: eight eighteen oh nine, Trader Anthony Glasses Journal, conveying a

374
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:56,840
Speaker 1: story I told in a prior podcast episode, provides one

375
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Speaker 1: of the best looks at the otherwise little known Western

376
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:05,320
Speaker 1: horse trade. Glasses Journal allows us to recreate a history

377
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:09,360
Speaker 1: in our heads where one had barely been imaginable before.

378
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:13,920
Speaker 1: It took a full decade after Spain in the US

379
00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:16,960
Speaker 1: finally agreed on the Red and Arkansas Rivers as the

380
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 1: official boundary between the two North American powers before another

381
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:25,520
Speaker 1: American horse trader would leave us an account rivaling Glasses.

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00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:30,159
Speaker 1: In those years, scores very likely hundreds of unknown and

383
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:35,680
Speaker 1: undocumented American horse traders traversed the plains, running wild horses,

384
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:40,160
Speaker 1: trading for animals from the Indians, and probably encouraging such

385
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:43,520
Speaker 1: a general theft of horses across the West that one

386
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:48,280
Speaker 1: observer estimated that ten thousand were stolen from Spanish ranches

387
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:52,800
Speaker 1: almost every year. Murky accounts exist for a few of

388
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:59,480
Speaker 1: these traders. The Osages plundered Alexander McFarlane and John Lemons's

389
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Speaker 1: Mustaging party in eighteen twelve. August Pierre Chateau, Jules Demon

390
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:10,360
Speaker 1: and Joseph Philibert of Saint Louis opened up a significant

391
00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:14,680
Speaker 1: horse trade with the Comanches and Rappa Hose between eighteen

392
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:20,160
Speaker 1: fifteen and eighteen seventeen, and Cafias Ham and David Burnett

393
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:24,840
Speaker 1: became modestly famous horse traders in the same years, as

394
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:28,360
Speaker 1: did Jacob Fowler, who left us a journal written in

395
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:34,320
Speaker 1: phonics along with Hugh Glynn. Then came Thomas James of

396
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 1: Saint Louis, whose book Three Years among the Indians and

397
00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:43,680
Speaker 1: Mexicans left us a nicely close grained look at the

398
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 1: Mustanger's west, James set a pattern to come. He was

399
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:52,400
Speaker 1: both a mountain man and a mustanger. He had first

400
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:55,640
Speaker 1: gone west by ascending the Missouri to the Three Forks

401
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:58,960
Speaker 1: in eighteen oh nine and eighteen ten, and he didn't

402
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:02,560
Speaker 1: make his first trip onto the southern plains until eighteen

403
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:06,840
Speaker 1: twenty one, riding out from Fort Smith in president Oklahoma,

404
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:11,880
Speaker 1: before being confronted by Comanches under Spanish orders not to

405
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 1: allow Americans to approach Santa Fe. Eyeing those splendid Comanche

406
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 1: horse herds, Thomas James got a sense of the possibilities.

407
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 1: Invited to trade for horses the next summer, James did so.

408
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:33,480
Speaker 1: The result was a three year expedition from eighteen twenty

409
00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:37,200
Speaker 1: two to eighteen twenty four that was financed with fifty

410
00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:42,240
Speaker 1: five hundred dollars in goods. Ascending the Canadian River, James's

411
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:46,320
Speaker 1: party of twenty three finally met the Wichitas under their

412
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:53,000
Speaker 1: headman Alsare, and the trading commenced. James quickly bought seventeen

413
00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:56,080
Speaker 1: that he knew would fetch one hundred dollars apiece back

414
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 1: in the settlements. Eventually, the Wichitas introduced him to the

415
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:03,880
Speaker 1: command achies a band under Big Star, and James got

416
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:06,600
Speaker 1: a taste of a little twist the Comanches put on

417
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:10,960
Speaker 1: horse trading. They were perfectly willing to trade their best horses,

418
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 1: since they had every intention of stealing them back. Despite

419
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:19,880
Speaker 1: the frustrations, the life of a Western horse trader held

420
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:24,600
Speaker 1: a real allure. James was smitten. I began to be

421
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:29,120
Speaker 1: reconciled to a savage life and enamored with the simplicity

422
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:34,400
Speaker 1: of nature. Here there were no debts, no sheriffs, no marshals,

423
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 1: no hypocrisy or false friendships. Once he had assembled a

424
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:43,720
Speaker 1: drove of three hundred and twenty three high quality animals,

425
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:48,560
Speaker 1: James departed for the settlements, but not before Olsiree made

426
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:52,719
Speaker 1: a present of his own fine war horse, Chakoba, and

427
00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:56,880
Speaker 1: urged James to return the next year to the headwaters

428
00:31:56,880 --> 00:32:01,120
Speaker 1: of the Red, where the Wichitas grazed sick steam thousand

429
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:05,480
Speaker 1: fine ponies. That would have been the horse trader's promise

430
00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:10,920
Speaker 1: of the golden fleece. But James never returned. Pushing his

431
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:15,960
Speaker 1: herd eastward, he lost all but seventy one to stampedes

432
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:20,360
Speaker 1: and what must have been a biblical attack of horseflies.

433
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:25,880
Speaker 1: More attrition followed as he penetrated the woodlands. If James

434
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:29,480
Speaker 1: can be believed, when he finally reached Saint Louis for

435
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:34,120
Speaker 1: his troubles, he had just five horses left. That was

436
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:38,240
Speaker 1: precisely the number he had started with three years earlier.

437
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:43,480
Speaker 1: As the wild horse herds spread farther north and west,

438
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:49,640
Speaker 1: the trade expanded geographically and in volume. The markets evolved too.

439
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:54,360
Speaker 1: Overland immigrants plying the trails across the plains needed a

440
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:57,960
Speaker 1: constant supply of fresh horses, and during the War with

441
00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:01,600
Speaker 1: Mexico in the late eighteen forties, the US Army of

442
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:06,760
Speaker 1: the West needed remounts for its cavalry, so between eighteen

443
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:10,200
Speaker 1: twenty two and eighteen fifty the horse trade shifted to

444
00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:14,200
Speaker 1: a new phase. In eighteen thirty four, the Trade and

445
00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:18,560
Speaker 1: Intercourse Act for the Indian Country made horses a legal

446
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:22,840
Speaker 1: trade item in the West. The trading firm of Bent,

447
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:26,840
Speaker 1: Saint Vrain and Company got its license that same year

448
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:30,680
Speaker 1: and built Bent's Fort on the north side of the

449
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 1: Arkansas River the next year. That trade took a leap

450
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:38,640
Speaker 1: forward in eighteen forty when the Cheyennes made peace with

451
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:42,840
Speaker 1: the Comanches, and kiwas so much so that the horse

452
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:46,640
Speaker 1: and mule trade became the key to Bentz Fort's success.

453
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:52,160
Speaker 1: The Colorado traders benefited from wildcought and Indian horses from

454
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:55,680
Speaker 1: off the surrounding prairies, but they also reaped profits from

455
00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 1: the large number of horses that former mountain men, seeking

456
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:04,480
Speaker 1: new animal resources. With beaver now entirely trapped out, drove

457
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:10,040
Speaker 1: eastward from California. Mountain man Old Bill Williams claimed that

458
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:13,360
Speaker 1: the greatest coup of his long career in the West

459
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:18,200
Speaker 1: was stealing four thousand horses from California ranches and driving

460
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:23,000
Speaker 1: them to Bentce Forward. Jim Beckworth, long adopted into the

461
00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:27,719
Speaker 1: Crow tribe, arrived at Pueblo in eighteen forty six with

462
00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:31,799
Speaker 1: one thousand horses from California, trading almost all of them

463
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:37,080
Speaker 1: to Stephen Carney's Army of the West. Former beaver trappers

464
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:41,840
Speaker 1: Solomon Sublette and Joseph Walker came with ten drovers and

465
00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:47,200
Speaker 1: five hundred California horses at about the same time. With

466
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:50,680
Speaker 1: beaver gone and the buffalo slaughter not yet under way,

467
00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 1: for Western outdoorsmen, the horse trade was now pretty much

468
00:34:55,040 --> 00:35:00,360
Speaker 1: the story. So the trade kept shifting ever northward because

469
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:04,239
Speaker 1: of the Oregon Trail By the eighteen fifties, Fort Laramie

470
00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:08,200
Speaker 1: had become the epicenter of the trade, but especially in

471
00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:11,160
Speaker 1: the years after the Civil War, as the slaughter of

472
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:15,000
Speaker 1: bison took away the wild herds competition for grass and water,

473
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:20,240
Speaker 1: wild horses underwent a population explosion on the northern plains,

474
00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:24,120
Speaker 1: filling the Red Desert of Wyoming and the badlands of

475
00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:30,319
Speaker 1: Montana and the Dakotas with wild bands. Like almost all

476
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:33,640
Speaker 1: the rest of the West, wild animals except in the

477
00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:39,040
Speaker 1: most parched deserts, the vast horseherds did not survive long

478
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:43,760
Speaker 1: into the twentieth century. Ranchers paid their cowboys to shoot

479
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:47,800
Speaker 1: wild horses on site, then bait the carcasses with poison

480
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:52,279
Speaker 1: to kill wolves and coyotes. It was a strange kind

481
00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:55,759
Speaker 1: of murder to shoot an animal exactly like the one

482
00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:59,560
Speaker 1: you were riding, but it was doubly efficient for ranchers

483
00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:03,880
Speaker 1: who dreamed of a world without wild horses or wolves.

484
00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:08,200
Speaker 1: Enough horses were still out there that during the Great

485
00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:13,320
Speaker 1: War World War One, Miles City furnished Allied buyers, thirty

486
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:16,560
Speaker 1: two thousand of them. That helped the British and French

487
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:23,319
Speaker 1: hold off the Germans till the Yanks arrived. Then modernity hit,

488
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:27,560
Speaker 1: and with it a story that tied past and future.

489
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:31,239
Speaker 1: One of the markers of the modern world in the

490
00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:36,880
Speaker 1: Roaring twenties was the remarkable growth in household pets. The

491
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 1: wild horse trade finally acquired a corporate player when Kettel Ration,

492
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:46,160
Speaker 1: the first of the national pet food companies, began to

493
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:50,360
Speaker 1: put up plants in the Midwest. Some of the sangers

494
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:55,640
Speaker 1: building capture corrals in the badlands of eastern Montana evidently

495
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:59,319
Speaker 1: were unaware that the horses they were selling to buyers

496
00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:03,960
Speaker 1: in fancy at the railroad stations were going to pet

497
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:09,560
Speaker 1: food slaughterhouses. One of them, a young man named Frank Litz,

498
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:14,560
Speaker 1: learned the truth around a campfire one night. We're up on.

499
00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:18,319
Speaker 1: Litz bought one hundred and fifty sticks of dynamite and

500
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:22,680
Speaker 1: a train ticket to Illinois with the intent of performing

501
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:28,120
Speaker 1: eco terrorism on a dog food plant. There. Guards caught

502
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:31,320
Speaker 1: him before he could set off his charges. But I

503
00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:35,919
Speaker 1: like to imagine that a wild horse somewhere nickered when

504
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:52,800
Speaker 1: that story circulated in the West.

505
00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:55,319
Speaker 2: Dan.

506
00:37:55,360 --> 00:38:00,480
Speaker 3: When we talk about wildlife in North America, a lot

507
00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:05,400
Speaker 3: of the debates fall around what animals belong where and

508
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:10,200
Speaker 3: what animals should be where That's how I yeah, I mean, well,

509
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:12,840
Speaker 3: I think just generally speaking, you're talking about wolves in

510
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:16,920
Speaker 3: the West, you're talking about invasive species. You're talking, you know,

511
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:20,560
Speaker 3: like what animals should properly be in a certain place,

512
00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:27,200
Speaker 3: And obviously that depends on your chronological framework, right, and

513
00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:30,360
Speaker 3: so here I think horses are one of these species

514
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:32,960
Speaker 3: that when people look at them on the landscape today,

515
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:35,720
Speaker 3: they say, these things shouldn't be there, they don't belong.

516
00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:37,920
Speaker 3: But you obviously take a different approach to that.

517
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:44,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, I take the deep time approach. And so you

518
00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:49,759
Speaker 1: know what one has to so to be sure, old

519
00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:53,800
Speaker 1: whirl horses brought here by Spaniards, the Brits, the French.

520
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:58,120
Speaker 1: They had gone through several thousand and four to six

521
00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:03,840
Speaker 1: thousand years of domestication and alterations in their confirmation and

522
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:08,680
Speaker 1: so forth and size and everything. So they had certainly

523
00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:14,080
Speaker 1: been bred to some different you know, conformations than classic

524
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:19,640
Speaker 1: American horses. But the horse is one of those animals,

525
00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:23,320
Speaker 1: like the wolf, like the camel actually, which is another

526
00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:26,440
Speaker 1: one that causes people to scratch their heads. These are

527
00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:30,080
Speaker 1: animals that evolved in North America, you know, after the

528
00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:35,600
Speaker 1: chick saloub impact took out the dinosaurs, and evolution sort

529
00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:39,680
Speaker 1: of started again and began producing the age of mammals.

530
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:44,840
Speaker 1: Horses were one of the creatures that evolved in North America.

531
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:50,120
Speaker 1: And so, because I like to think in big picture terms,

532
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:56,640
Speaker 1: it seems to me hard to justify an argument completely

533
00:39:57,239 --> 00:40:01,520
Speaker 1: that the horse doesn't have some place on American soil

534
00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:07,400
Speaker 1: since it's been here for fifty six fifty seven million years.

535
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:11,560
Speaker 1: Then was only absent for about eight thousand or so

536
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:17,480
Speaker 1: years before Old Worlders returned horses to North America. And

537
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:21,239
Speaker 1: you know, as I argued in that podcast, that's this

538
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:24,680
Speaker 1: is one of the reasons why horses did so well

539
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:29,240
Speaker 1: when they got here. I mean, they were completely preadapted,

540
00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:33,560
Speaker 1: Their teeth, their hoofs, their speed, everything about their behavior

541
00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:36,360
Speaker 1: had all been shaped by North America. And so they

542
00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:39,040
Speaker 1: get back here. And one of the reasons I make

543
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:41,160
Speaker 1: a point about that is because there are places where

544
00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:44,839
Speaker 1: Europeans tried to introduce horses, like South Africa, and they

545
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:48,520
Speaker 1: had a very difficult time getting horses to actually survive

546
00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:52,480
Speaker 1: in any numbers in South Africa. But in North America, man,

547
00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:55,440
Speaker 1: as soon as they got loose, they were instantly sort

548
00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:59,040
Speaker 1: of you know, out there replicating the pleistocen. But what

549
00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:01,879
Speaker 1: I think is, you know, been an issue for most

550
00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:04,440
Speaker 1: people in thinking about that, is that we all know

551
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:09,240
Speaker 1: historically that horses in the last four hundred years came

552
00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:13,000
Speaker 1: from Europe to North America or one of the species

553
00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:16,840
Speaker 1: that was brought here and were new then, and so

554
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:20,880
Speaker 1: that's how our perception of history is often a fairly

555
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:24,239
Speaker 1: short one, and so that's how we think of the

556
00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:27,680
Speaker 1: story of the horse. It's something that came from Europe

557
00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:30,560
Speaker 1: and ended up in America a few hundred years ago.

558
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:33,680
Speaker 1: And of course now we as we all know, wild

559
00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:39,360
Speaker 1: horses in the West especially have produced some almost impossibly

560
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:45,560
Speaker 1: difficult issues for the BLM, in particular where most wild

561
00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:48,839
Speaker 1: horses are. And I mean I always try to make

562
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:53,040
Speaker 1: the point when people bring that up as well. The

563
00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:57,360
Speaker 1: problem with the introduction, the reintroduction, the recovery of horses

564
00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:00,120
Speaker 1: in North America is that we didn't that the same

565
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:04,520
Speaker 1: time bring all of their Pleistocene predators over with them.

566
00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:08,120
Speaker 1: Just the horse made it. Nobody had tried to domesticate

567
00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:11,920
Speaker 1: the sabertooth cat, and so we didn't bring any of

568
00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:16,319
Speaker 1: their predators along to America with them. And that's been

569
00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:21,200
Speaker 1: the difficulty, especially in in America where we've suppressed or

570
00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:24,920
Speaker 1: eliminated the populations of predators, as you've got an animal

571
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:27,719
Speaker 1: out there that once had big predators and they're not

572
00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:28,320
Speaker 1: there anymore.

573
00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:30,520
Speaker 2: But I mean, you have to realize that you laying

574
00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:35,120
Speaker 2: a lot of traps for yourself because because like I get,

575
00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:39,640
Speaker 2: like horses were here, okay, and then since someone brought

576
00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:45,560
Speaker 2: horses back, it's okay to view them as having like

577
00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:50,200
Speaker 2: continuity that they're sort of you know, they're a native

578
00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:53,200
Speaker 2: animal with an asterisk. But would you take it so

579
00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:57,759
Speaker 2: far as to advocate on bringing camels back or does

580
00:42:57,800 --> 00:42:59,800
Speaker 2: it need to be that they came back four hundred

581
00:42:59,840 --> 00:43:01,280
Speaker 2: year ago not today?

582
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:05,279
Speaker 1: Well, you know, we did try to bring camels back.

583
00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:10,520
Speaker 1: Didn't work out, No, it didn't work, but we did

584
00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:13,839
Speaker 1: make an effort to return camels. I mean, and not

585
00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:19,640
Speaker 1: because Americans in the eighteen fifties understood that camels were

586
00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:22,560
Speaker 1: an evolutionary in North American species.

587
00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:25,400
Speaker 2: But it wasn't on the Spanish mind when they brought horses.

588
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:27,680
Speaker 1: It wasn't on their mind either. I mean, we haven't

589
00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:31,040
Speaker 1: known this, in fact for more than about half a century.

590
00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:35,279
Speaker 1: So this is something that's relatively new in our consciousness,

591
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:37,719
Speaker 1: which is I think one of the reasons why acceptance

592
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:42,399
Speaker 1: of the idea has kind of lagged. I mean, I'm

593
00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:45,359
Speaker 1: kind of intrigued by the story of camels. I've never

594
00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:48,880
Speaker 1: really read deeply into it, but you know, I know

595
00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:54,680
Speaker 1: that camels were used, for example, in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona,

596
00:43:55,480 --> 00:44:00,839
Speaker 1: in the desert country, and they did reasonable well. I mean,

597
00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:05,600
Speaker 1: there were domesticated Campbell's, they never went wild, but when

598
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:09,040
Speaker 1: a few of them got abandoned, there were so few

599
00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:11,440
Speaker 1: of them. I don't think cammels have the same reproductive

600
00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:14,680
Speaker 1: turnover that horses do. There were so few of them

601
00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:18,120
Speaker 1: that the ones that were left basically when people saw

602
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:21,359
Speaker 1: them they shot them. Indians native people arrowed them when

603
00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:21,960
Speaker 1: they saw.

604
00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:23,000
Speaker 2: Well it was at that time.

605
00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:27,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was the eighteen fifties and eighteen sixties, and

606
00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:30,080
Speaker 1: there were still some camels in the West as late

607
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:34,040
Speaker 1: as the eighteen eighties, so that period in the yeah,

608
00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:37,520
Speaker 1: the Civil War, before and after the Civil War, there

609
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:40,839
Speaker 1: were actually camels in the West. But now that particular

610
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:44,520
Speaker 1: attempt that didn't take the way the horse thing did.

611
00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:49,560
Speaker 2: What was the horse trader Nolan? What was his first name?

612
00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:50,080
Speaker 1: Philip.

613
00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:55,879
Speaker 2: You mentioned Philip you, I'm sure in the interesting time

614
00:44:56,480 --> 00:45:04,400
Speaker 2: you mentioned Philip Nolan and said he had eccentricities.

615
00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:06,080
Speaker 1: Many and great many great.

616
00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:09,279
Speaker 2: So if I today was talking about someone and I said,

617
00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:16,440
Speaker 2: you know, rand, he's got certain eccentricities, he's gonna get

618
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:18,880
Speaker 2: an image in his mind, you know, like not exactly,

619
00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:20,840
Speaker 2: but he's gonna sort of catch my drift. You know

620
00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:22,799
Speaker 2: what were they?

621
00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:27,319
Speaker 1: Well, the guy who said that was William Dunbar. He

622
00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:30,560
Speaker 1: was a scientist and that's just Mississippi who knew Nolan.

623
00:45:31,239 --> 00:45:34,239
Speaker 1: And he never elaborated. And I don't think that was

624
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:36,520
Speaker 1: that was in a letter to Thomas Jefferson, who was

625
00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:38,279
Speaker 1: asking about this guy. I couldn't know.

626
00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:40,600
Speaker 2: Was he like a sexual devian or like what like

627
00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:42,799
Speaker 2: or he's just behavioral or what.

628
00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:49,360
Speaker 1: I don't know exactly what he was referring to. But

629
00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:55,160
Speaker 1: Nolan was, uh, he was one of those kind of

630
00:45:55,200 --> 00:46:02,880
Speaker 1: people who, uh, he dominated an everywhere pretty clearly, everywhere

631
00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:06,359
Speaker 1: he went, you know. And I don't know that this

632
00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:09,640
Speaker 1: exactly happened, but I suspect it may have happened. Philip

633
00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:14,839
Speaker 1: Nolan evidently was the kind of guy who being introduced

634
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:19,640
Speaker 1: in a comanche camp for the first time would pick

635
00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:22,840
Speaker 1: out the biggest, meanest looking dude and walk up to

636
00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:28,359
Speaker 1: him and shove him. And so he exhibited that kind

637
00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:32,759
Speaker 1: of cocksure confidence that I think enabled him to do

638
00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:37,120
Speaker 1: a lot of the things that he did. And I

639
00:46:37,160 --> 00:46:39,920
Speaker 1: suspect that Dunbar was who was you know, he's a

640
00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:46,319
Speaker 1: cultured guy out of Edinburgh, Scotland, and highly educated. He

641
00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:49,440
Speaker 1: was a very well known scientist at the time. I

642
00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:54,000
Speaker 1: suspect he thought Nolan was. I mean, because he says

643
00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:58,839
Speaker 1: something like he lacked a sufficient education, but he did

644
00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:05,000
Speaker 1: have print simples of honor tied to a tremendous amount

645
00:47:05,080 --> 00:47:07,800
Speaker 1: of personal courage, and so I think he was a

646
00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:10,400
Speaker 1: kind of guy who was in a different class than

647
00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:17,319
Speaker 1: Dunbar was. He was somebody who Dunbar probably didn't entirely understand,

648
00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:22,920
Speaker 1: but Nolan didn't. He did cut a large figure in

649
00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:24,879
Speaker 1: that part of the world. A lot of people knew

650
00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:29,080
Speaker 1: who he was. He never married, but he very clearly

651
00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:35,000
Speaker 1: had a girlfriend in every port. He had girlfriends in Natches,

652
00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:41,279
Speaker 1: in Nacotash, in Arkansas, and probably in every Indian encampment

653
00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:44,880
Speaker 1: that he went to. And one of the kind of

654
00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:49,719
Speaker 1: intriguing things about his death was he probably wouldn't have

655
00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:55,880
Speaker 1: been killed in that Spanish attack on these mustangers in

656
00:47:55,920 --> 00:47:59,319
Speaker 1: eighteen oh one when he died, because the accounts of

657
00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:05,040
Speaker 1: it say that a stray ricochet bully caught him in

658
00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:09,480
Speaker 1: the forehead, and so it wasn't even that he was

659
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:14,960
Speaker 1: actually successfully targeted. It's just that he got taken out

660
00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:17,719
Speaker 1: by a kind of a you know one in one

661
00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:20,879
Speaker 1: hundred Chants, where a bullet, a stray bullet, hits him

662
00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:21,839
Speaker 1: in the head and kills him.

663
00:48:22,040 --> 00:48:24,839
Speaker 2: Has he been treated fictionally in film? Have you seen?

664
00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:30,040
Speaker 1: Well? There is I'm trying to remember who wrote this book,

665
00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:34,000
Speaker 1: The Man Without a Country it was called, and the

666
00:48:34,040 --> 00:48:37,000
Speaker 1: protagonist in that book was a guy named Philip Nolan,

667
00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:40,480
Speaker 1: But there's always been some suspicion about whether he was

668
00:48:40,520 --> 00:48:44,000
Speaker 1: based this character was based on Philip Nolan, the real

669
00:48:44,040 --> 00:48:47,799
Speaker 1: Philip Nolan, or just on some invented character. But there

670
00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:50,880
Speaker 1: is a book with a guy named Philip Nolan as

671
00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:55,439
Speaker 1: the main character called A Man Without a Country, but no,

672
00:48:55,440 --> 00:49:00,360
Speaker 1: no one has. Really He's to me a pretty ripe

673
00:49:00,600 --> 00:49:03,279
Speaker 1: character for doing that, because, I mean, here's one of

674
00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:06,399
Speaker 1: the things I've always been stunned by. This guy's only

675
00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:09,080
Speaker 1: twenty years old when he first goes to the west,

676
00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:14,200
Speaker 1: and this is almost twenty years before Lewis and Clark.

677
00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:19,960
Speaker 1: I mean, this is long before Thomas Jefferson ever sends

678
00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:26,160
Speaker 1: out his expeditions. Here is this single guy. He probably

679
00:49:26,239 --> 00:49:29,640
Speaker 1: occasionally would go with companions. I know he had the

680
00:49:29,640 --> 00:49:32,160
Speaker 1: guy that he was about to take to Monticello to

681
00:49:32,239 --> 00:49:35,920
Speaker 1: take that paint stay in to Jefferson was a fairly

682
00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:39,239
Speaker 1: well known figure on the Southwestern frontier, a guy named

683
00:49:39,320 --> 00:49:42,000
Speaker 1: Joseph Talpoon who knew a lot of the languages and

684
00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:45,080
Speaker 1: usually went along with some of these traders. So I

685
00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:48,560
Speaker 1: think he Nolan probably went with somebody like that on

686
00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:51,280
Speaker 1: some of these trips. But I mean, holy count taking

687
00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:54,520
Speaker 1: off at the age of twenty, and on that particular trip,

688
00:49:54,560 --> 00:49:56,799
Speaker 1: that first trip, there's every evidence that he got as

689
00:49:56,840 --> 00:49:58,040
Speaker 1: far as New Mexico.

690
00:50:00,239 --> 00:50:03,000
Speaker 2: Just incredibly ballsy, man, I'm telling you.

691
00:50:02,680 --> 00:50:06,640
Speaker 1: You know, just taking out and he knew good and

692
00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:10,600
Speaker 1: well that the Spaniards regarded this as their territory. So

693
00:50:10,719 --> 00:50:13,440
Speaker 1: if they catch him, you know, the results are not

694
00:50:13,480 --> 00:50:18,680
Speaker 1: going to be good. But nonetheless, and he manages to

695
00:50:18,719 --> 00:50:22,279
Speaker 1: somehow ingratiate himself with all sorts of Native people while

696
00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:22,879
Speaker 1: he's doing it.

697
00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:28,960
Speaker 3: One thing that caught my eye in this episode is

698
00:50:30,239 --> 00:50:34,960
Speaker 3: a parallel with the buffalo robe trade and that, you know,

699
00:50:35,040 --> 00:50:40,240
Speaker 3: like when people went up to try to encourage tribes

700
00:50:40,280 --> 00:50:44,240
Speaker 3: to catch beaver. There's an account of a Mandan chief

701
00:50:44,320 --> 00:50:47,399
Speaker 3: telling someone from the Hudson's Bay Company if we could

702
00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:51,440
Speaker 3: catch him on horseback in a real hunt. That sounds fine,

703
00:50:51,560 --> 00:50:55,040
Speaker 3: but we're not about to do this crawling around in

704
00:50:55,080 --> 00:50:57,920
Speaker 3: the bowels of the earth thing. And both of these

705
00:50:58,920 --> 00:51:01,919
Speaker 3: you highlight. With the horse trade, like the buffalo rope trade,

706
00:51:01,920 --> 00:51:06,440
Speaker 3: it's based on a pre existing native economy, and so

707
00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:11,680
Speaker 3: the transition from indigenous economies to this global market economy

708
00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:16,239
Speaker 3: sort of happened seamlessly, whereas it's more fitful with the

709
00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:18,239
Speaker 3: with the beaver trade. And I just wonder if you

710
00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:21,799
Speaker 3: can sort of elaborate on that pattern that we see

711
00:51:21,880 --> 00:51:22,520
Speaker 3: again and again.

712
00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:25,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's the horse trade was very definitely based on

713
00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:32,719
Speaker 1: an earlier form of trade, exchange between Native people and

714
00:51:32,840 --> 00:51:35,480
Speaker 1: the you know, and there's some wonderful stories I didn't

715
00:51:35,560 --> 00:51:37,400
Speaker 1: I didn't tell them in this episode, but there's some

716
00:51:37,440 --> 00:51:44,080
Speaker 1: wonderful stories about about Native people first encountering someone approaching

717
00:51:44,120 --> 00:51:50,360
Speaker 1: them on horseback or with horses to trade to them. Uh.

718
00:51:50,400 --> 00:51:53,920
Speaker 1: And those those encounters are mostly farther north, among groups

719
00:51:53,960 --> 00:51:56,680
Speaker 1: like the Blackfeet and the accentib One, who are pretty

720
00:51:56,680 --> 00:52:01,280
Speaker 1: far removed from where horses are first wild in the West,

721
00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:05,240
Speaker 1: which is down in the southern West. But they kind

722
00:52:05,239 --> 00:52:07,560
Speaker 1: of you know, they look at the animals and they

723
00:52:07,560 --> 00:52:10,400
Speaker 1: don't exactly know how to react to them. They you know,

724
00:52:10,440 --> 00:52:15,360
Speaker 1: there's an account of some Blackfeet leader offering the first

725
00:52:15,400 --> 00:52:20,239
Speaker 1: horse he ever sees some buffalo meat to eat. Yeah,

726
00:52:20,280 --> 00:52:22,560
Speaker 1: and you know, the horse, of course shies and throws

727
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:26,440
Speaker 1: its head, and he has to be told that's not

728
00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:30,560
Speaker 1: what these animals eat. They're more like they're like elk,

729
00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:34,640
Speaker 1: And that's the best. Usually when a native person who's

730
00:52:34,680 --> 00:52:36,880
Speaker 1: trading horses and taking them to a try for the

731
00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:39,960
Speaker 1: first time does so that's the way he does it.

732
00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:44,360
Speaker 1: But he uses the elk as the as the example.

733
00:52:45,080 --> 00:52:49,080
Speaker 1: So it requires the culture too. It's not just the animal.

734
00:52:49,120 --> 00:52:51,000
Speaker 1: You have to take the culture along with it. You

735
00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:56,000
Speaker 1: have to show people what the animal eats, how you

736
00:52:56,120 --> 00:52:58,359
Speaker 1: care for it, how you hobble it to keep it

737
00:52:58,400 --> 00:53:02,000
Speaker 1: close by and not running off, how you ride it,

738
00:53:02,640 --> 00:53:07,560
Speaker 1: how you do all these aspects of the equine arts

739
00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:12,279
Speaker 1: that all has to be taught. But it does fit

740
00:53:12,520 --> 00:53:18,760
Speaker 1: pretty seamlessly into an existing mode of exchange between Native people,

741
00:53:19,280 --> 00:53:22,000
Speaker 1: and it does transform some of those modes. As I

742
00:53:22,080 --> 00:53:25,359
Speaker 1: mentioned in the podcast, you know the reason we think

743
00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:29,640
Speaker 1: there's a division between northern Cheyennes and Southern Chyennes. Northern

744
00:53:29,719 --> 00:53:33,719
Speaker 1: Chyennes are today in Montana, Southern Chyennes and western Oklahoma.

745
00:53:34,200 --> 00:53:35,640
Speaker 2: Is I wanted to ask you about this.

746
00:53:35,800 --> 00:53:41,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, the southerns managed to find themselves or went far

747
00:53:42,040 --> 00:53:45,800
Speaker 1: enough south to get into the horse country and they stayed.

748
00:53:46,400 --> 00:53:50,120
Speaker 1: They were drawn like the Comanches, and the kiwas to

749
00:53:50,280 --> 00:53:53,120
Speaker 1: that part of the world where horses were first available,

750
00:53:53,400 --> 00:53:57,880
Speaker 1: either wild or easily stolen from Spanish settlements, and so

751
00:53:58,640 --> 00:54:02,840
Speaker 1: that became an the inducement for a segment of the

752
00:54:02,960 --> 00:54:07,239
Speaker 1: Cheyennes to go south and remain and not return to

753
00:54:07,320 --> 00:54:10,799
Speaker 1: the north, where the larger body of their tribe was.

754
00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:14,000
Speaker 1: But I mean, there are all kinds of wonderful stories.

755
00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:17,080
Speaker 1: I was just a reader on an article in the

756
00:54:17,200 --> 00:54:22,359
Speaker 1: journal Science about two years ago about some archaeological excavations

757
00:54:22,400 --> 00:54:28,480
Speaker 1: in Colorado where radiocarbon dating indicates and these were horse

758
00:54:28,560 --> 00:54:33,720
Speaker 1: bones and radiocarbon dating was indicating a time frame between

759
00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:39,919
Speaker 1: about sixteen twenty and sixteen seventy, which is before the

760
00:54:39,960 --> 00:54:44,120
Speaker 1: Pueblo Revolt, which we've long used as the moment when

761
00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:48,239
Speaker 1: horses really are spread across the West. And it's one

762
00:54:48,280 --> 00:54:51,319
Speaker 1: of the reasons I said in the podcast, and I

763
00:54:51,400 --> 00:54:54,799
Speaker 1: told the people who were working on this article. I mean,

764
00:54:54,840 --> 00:54:58,759
Speaker 1: there are accounts in the Spanish documents that what they

765
00:54:58,760 --> 00:55:02,799
Speaker 1: were doing when settled in New Mexico, they brought their

766
00:55:02,840 --> 00:55:06,000
Speaker 1: horse herds with them, of course, and sheep and goats

767
00:55:06,040 --> 00:55:09,680
Speaker 1: and cattle, and what they often did was to train

768
00:55:10,640 --> 00:55:15,160
Speaker 1: young Pueblo men to be the herders of these various

769
00:55:15,239 --> 00:55:18,719
Speaker 1: domestic animals, and some of those there are accounts that

770
00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:24,320
Speaker 1: some of these young Pueblo horse guys, who are hurting horses,

771
00:55:24,840 --> 00:55:29,319
Speaker 1: would also learn how to ride, and would mount up

772
00:55:29,440 --> 00:55:34,760
Speaker 1: and take off into a west where no native people

773
00:55:34,800 --> 00:55:37,799
Speaker 1: had ever really ridden before. And they clearly some of

774
00:55:37,800 --> 00:55:40,000
Speaker 1: them by sixteen fifty or so managed to get up

775
00:55:40,680 --> 00:55:43,600
Speaker 1: into Colorado, which seems to be the explanation for that site.

776
00:55:44,400 --> 00:55:49,400
Speaker 1: But yeah, it's a revolutionary the advent of a revolutionary

777
00:55:49,440 --> 00:55:52,359
Speaker 1: animal that's not been present in North America for eight

778
00:55:52,400 --> 00:55:57,160
Speaker 1: thousand years and it sort of transforms the native world

779
00:55:57,840 --> 00:56:02,000
Speaker 1: and their trade possibilities, and it becomes, particularly on the

780
00:56:02,560 --> 00:56:05,960
Speaker 1: southern half of the West, the kind of counterpart to

781
00:56:06,000 --> 00:56:07,560
Speaker 1: the fur trade up north.

782
00:56:08,680 --> 00:56:12,239
Speaker 2: I feel like tastes and horses must have changed a lot,

783
00:56:12,320 --> 00:56:15,720
Speaker 2: because these guys Nolan and others that are catching horses,

784
00:56:15,760 --> 00:56:20,280
Speaker 2: they're catching horses to just directly supply people's horse needs.

785
00:56:20,920 --> 00:56:24,319
Speaker 2: I remember I had a much older half a much

786
00:56:24,360 --> 00:56:27,080
Speaker 2: older half brother, and he'd always been out in Colorado

787
00:56:27,120 --> 00:56:28,840
Speaker 2: as a game warden and a guide. And I remember

788
00:56:28,840 --> 00:56:30,759
Speaker 2: being when I was ten years old, I went out

789
00:56:30,760 --> 00:56:33,280
Speaker 2: and hung out with him. We were driving around somewhere

790
00:56:33,320 --> 00:56:37,360
Speaker 2: and there's a bunch of wild horses, and I remember

791
00:56:37,440 --> 00:56:39,600
Speaker 2: him saying to me. I asked, because he had horses,

792
00:56:39,600 --> 00:56:42,240
Speaker 2: and I asked him about those horses, and I remember

793
00:56:42,320 --> 00:56:46,120
Speaker 2: him saying, they're all not heads. And I kept looking

794
00:56:46,160 --> 00:56:48,839
Speaker 2: at I remember this so clearly. I kept looking at him,

795
00:56:48,840 --> 00:56:51,879
Speaker 2: trying to understand what that meant, what he meant by

796
00:56:52,000 --> 00:56:55,239
Speaker 2: not like a notthead. Then I realized he's saying, you know,

797
00:56:55,320 --> 00:57:00,400
Speaker 2: these they're all idiots or whatever. So is it that

798
00:57:00,440 --> 00:57:05,280
Speaker 2: people have just gotten I'm anything, I'm anything but a horseman.

799
00:57:05,480 --> 00:57:07,759
Speaker 2: Is it people that have just changed their tastes for

800
00:57:07,880 --> 00:57:11,479
Speaker 2: other breeds because now these wild these feral horses, wild

801
00:57:11,520 --> 00:57:13,120
Speaker 2: horses what eevery you want to call them, depending on

802
00:57:13,160 --> 00:57:17,280
Speaker 2: your how you view the issue. They're not like extra

803
00:57:17,680 --> 00:57:20,840
Speaker 2: extremely popular as riding horses, right.

804
00:57:20,960 --> 00:57:23,560
Speaker 1: No, they're not. I mean, you know, and they've they've

805
00:57:23,640 --> 00:57:28,400
Speaker 1: been wild, and so they're difficult to you know, horses

806
00:57:28,440 --> 00:57:33,000
Speaker 1: are not particularly easy to train to ride anyway. I

807
00:57:33,040 --> 00:57:36,600
Speaker 1: mean I have had horses. I had horses for many years.

808
00:57:36,680 --> 00:57:41,400
Speaker 1: I I uh uh. I had a horse when I

809
00:57:41,480 --> 00:57:43,520
Speaker 1: was living in Texas and I took him to Montana.

810
00:57:43,800 --> 00:57:47,520
Speaker 1: It was a paint horse that I got in North Dakota. Uh.

811
00:57:47,560 --> 00:57:50,520
Speaker 1: He was supposed to have been a horse that sitting

812
00:57:50,520 --> 00:57:53,440
Speaker 1: bulls people had taken to Canada and then when they

813
00:57:53,480 --> 00:57:56,720
Speaker 1: came back to the States, they brought the ancestors of

814
00:57:56,720 --> 00:57:59,200
Speaker 1: this horse back that probably that probably just cost me

815
00:57:59,240 --> 00:58:03,800
Speaker 1: an extra hundred dose. It was a good story horse,

816
00:58:04,120 --> 00:58:07,760
Speaker 1: special horse. But this horse I got as a five

817
00:58:07,800 --> 00:58:10,600
Speaker 1: month old colt, and by the time he was about

818
00:58:10,600 --> 00:58:12,520
Speaker 1: a year and a half old, I was uh. I

819
00:58:12,600 --> 00:58:15,200
Speaker 1: was first putting blankets on his back, and then I

820
00:58:15,240 --> 00:58:17,960
Speaker 1: put a buffalo robe on his back, and then I

821
00:58:18,000 --> 00:58:22,280
Speaker 1: started leaning over him and finally sliding over him, and

822
00:58:22,400 --> 00:58:25,000
Speaker 1: after doing that a few times, I swung my leg

823
00:58:25,480 --> 00:58:30,600
Speaker 1: over him and he never bucked one time. We just

824
00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:33,480
Speaker 1: and then I for a long time, I didn't put

825
00:58:33,480 --> 00:58:35,080
Speaker 1: a bridle in his mouth. I just rode him with

826
00:58:35,120 --> 00:58:37,880
Speaker 1: a hackamore, which of course is a leather band across

827
00:58:37,920 --> 00:58:41,640
Speaker 1: his nose. And so I rode him pretty much in

828
00:58:41,720 --> 00:58:43,880
Speaker 1: the way, bareback and with a hack of more, pretty

829
00:58:43,920 --> 00:58:46,120
Speaker 1: much in the way a lot of Native people would

830
00:58:46,160 --> 00:58:50,680
Speaker 1: have ridden their horses. And he was quite He certainly was, uh,

831
00:58:50,880 --> 00:58:54,840
Speaker 1: you know, a knucklehead later in his life, but when

832
00:58:54,920 --> 00:58:57,480
Speaker 1: he was till the time he was about five years old,

833
00:58:58,120 --> 00:59:00,480
Speaker 1: he was a really good horse. And then I moved

834
00:59:00,480 --> 00:59:02,760
Speaker 1: off to Montana, and I had to leave him in

835
00:59:02,760 --> 00:59:05,400
Speaker 1: Texas for about three years before I could create a

836
00:59:05,440 --> 00:59:08,400
Speaker 1: situation to bring him up. And I had turned him

837
00:59:08,440 --> 00:59:10,720
Speaker 1: loose in a pasture with a bunch of other horses,

838
00:59:10,720 --> 00:59:14,200
Speaker 1: and he learned a bunch of bad habits, and I

839
00:59:14,240 --> 00:59:17,240
Speaker 1: was never able to yeah, and so I ended up

840
00:59:17,280 --> 00:59:20,040
Speaker 1: getting other horses after that that we were better than

841
00:59:20,080 --> 00:59:22,200
Speaker 1: he was. But I did have that experience which was

842
00:59:22,480 --> 00:59:26,640
Speaker 1: a very interesting kind of a replication maybe of how

843
00:59:26,720 --> 00:59:30,960
Speaker 1: Native people would have done it, and it was not

844
00:59:31,240 --> 00:59:34,640
Speaker 1: really very difficult at all. He was really he was

845
00:59:34,640 --> 00:59:37,680
Speaker 1: really pretty easy to wasn't really breaking him. It was

846
00:59:37,760 --> 00:59:40,520
Speaker 1: just finally getting on him and riding him, and he

847
00:59:40,600 --> 00:59:43,760
Speaker 1: was pretty easy to do that with. But it's you know,

848
00:59:45,240 --> 00:59:47,840
Speaker 1: one of the things I didn't I didn't include, and

849
00:59:47,880 --> 00:59:49,960
Speaker 1: I didn't include a lot of things that I know

850
00:59:50,040 --> 00:59:52,320
Speaker 1: about this because I've written about it in other places,

851
00:59:52,320 --> 00:59:59,400
Speaker 1: but in the episode, I didn't talk about things that

852
01:00:00,640 --> 01:00:06,840
Speaker 1: are fairly I suppose you could say explanatory in terms

853
01:00:06,880 --> 01:00:12,000
Speaker 1: like that, because, for example, in that Berlandier story about

854
01:00:12,400 --> 01:00:18,400
Speaker 1: how Hispanic mustangers in Texas would catch those horses and

855
01:00:18,440 --> 01:00:22,680
Speaker 1: how you would lose sometimes eighty percent of them in

856
01:00:22,720 --> 01:00:25,680
Speaker 1: the process of corralling them and catching them because they

857
01:00:25,720 --> 01:00:28,600
Speaker 1: would trample over one another and then they would die

858
01:00:28,640 --> 01:00:32,560
Speaker 1: of as the terms went, of broken heartedness overcapture or

859
01:00:32,880 --> 01:00:35,840
Speaker 1: nervous rage over capture. The other thing he said that

860
01:00:35,880 --> 01:00:41,680
Speaker 1: I didn't include. He said that these Hispanic messoneros in

861
01:00:41,800 --> 01:00:46,760
Speaker 1: Texas could render those horses, the ones that survived, they

862
01:00:46,760 --> 01:00:51,840
Speaker 1: could render them green broke in less than an hour. Really,

863
01:00:51,880 --> 01:00:55,520
Speaker 1: they could get them out of those corrals and within

864
01:00:55,560 --> 01:00:58,840
Speaker 1: an hour they would have them green broke. And that's

865
01:00:58,880 --> 01:01:02,080
Speaker 1: what happened with a lot of the horses that those

866
01:01:02,160 --> 01:01:05,520
Speaker 1: mustangers in the twentieth century up in the Montana Badlands.

867
01:01:06,320 --> 01:01:10,000
Speaker 1: They were catching wild horses and selling them to the

868
01:01:10,040 --> 01:01:15,160
Speaker 1: buyers for the Allies to use them in World War One,

869
01:01:15,280 --> 01:01:18,640
Speaker 1: and they were just spending an hour or so green

870
01:01:18,720 --> 01:01:21,720
Speaker 1: breaking them. And so I've always had, because I've had

871
01:01:21,760 --> 01:01:25,720
Speaker 1: horses and experience what horses can be like, I've always

872
01:01:25,800 --> 01:01:28,320
Speaker 1: had the idea that, oh my god, they took those

873
01:01:28,360 --> 01:01:34,760
Speaker 1: horses over to France and let brit soldiers who didn't

874
01:01:34,800 --> 01:01:38,080
Speaker 1: know anything about riding horses get on them. I mean,

875
01:01:38,160 --> 01:01:42,200
Speaker 1: what a friggin rodeo that would have been with animals

876
01:01:42,240 --> 01:01:45,640
Speaker 1: that you know, were actually wild mustangs. I mean, it

877
01:01:45,680 --> 01:01:49,040
Speaker 1: would have been a crazy thing, no doubt. Someone must

878
01:01:49,080 --> 01:01:51,520
Speaker 1: have written the you know, a journal entry or.

879
01:01:51,440 --> 01:01:52,080
Speaker 3: Something about it.

880
01:01:52,680 --> 01:01:53,880
Speaker 2: Well, thanks, Dan, appreciate it.

881
01:01:53,960 --> 01:02:02,840
Speaker 1: How you bet women say other games saying

882
01:02:02,880 --> 01:02:06,160
Speaker 2: The music tree hundred visitation