WEBVTT - #557 Jason Flom with Dennis Maher 0:00:05.160 --> 0:00:08.879 With the police banging on the door open up. 0:00:10.440 --> 0:00:12.320 The choice to be in that lineup was the last 0:00:12.400 --> 0:00:13.760 choice I made as a free man. 0:00:14.760 --> 0:00:16.880 A year later, I ended up writing the system. 0:00:18.200 --> 0:00:20.240 I'm going to be one of those people who everyone 0:00:20.239 --> 0:00:21.840 in the world is going to think as a monster 0:00:21.960 --> 0:00:24.000 or suspect as a monster for the rest of my life, 0:00:24.000 --> 0:00:25.319 and I'm just going to have to come to peace 0:00:25.360 --> 0:00:25.599 with that. 0:00:27.440 --> 0:00:29.520 Somebody was able to look at my picture in the 0:00:29.600 --> 0:00:33.080 database and say that I was somewhere where I definitely wasn't. 0:00:34.680 --> 0:00:37.880 I overheard three of the jailers discussing what part they might. 0:00:37.760 --> 0:00:38.720 Have to play in my hanging. 0:00:39.159 --> 0:00:42.000 They had been told that two prison officers would have 0:00:42.040 --> 0:00:46.519 to participate in my execution. Now I walked back inside 0:00:46.520 --> 0:00:49.520 that prison for the last time. Man, all help broke loose. 0:00:49.560 --> 0:01:07.759 But welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm. Today 0:01:07.800 --> 0:01:10.800 we have a very special episode, not only because of 0:01:10.840 --> 0:01:14.360 our amazing guest, Dennis Mayer. First of all, Dennis, welcome 0:01:14.400 --> 0:01:14.959 to the show. 0:01:15.120 --> 0:01:16.000 Thank you for having me. 0:01:16.319 --> 0:01:18.679 Dennis will get into his story in a minute, but 0:01:18.760 --> 0:01:21.240 let's suffice it to say that he was a sergeant 0:01:21.240 --> 0:01:23.679 in the United States Army. When he was wrongfully convicted 0:01:23.720 --> 0:01:27.440 of three rapes and served almost twenty years in prison. 0:01:27.840 --> 0:01:31.000 I also want to introduce Hannah Riley, who's the director 0:01:31.000 --> 0:01:34.560 of communications for the New England Innocence Project, and she's 0:01:34.560 --> 0:01:36.440 the first time on the show, hopefully not the last. 0:01:37.280 --> 0:01:40.160 And then we have a very close friend of mine, 0:01:40.440 --> 0:01:41.319 Alex Spiro. 0:01:41.800 --> 0:01:43.959 He is a former criminal. 0:01:43.600 --> 0:01:47.880 Prosecutor in New York and currently a defense attorney. He's 0:01:47.920 --> 0:01:51.000 also a professor at Harvard Law School. Alex, it's great 0:01:51.040 --> 0:01:52.200 to have you on the show as well. 0:01:52.240 --> 0:01:52.800 Thanks. 0:01:53.480 --> 0:01:57.720 So Dennis, let's start with you. Your case is of 0:01:58.200 --> 0:02:01.960 great interest, I think, to anyone who's interested in this genre, 0:02:02.000 --> 0:02:05.800 because it touches on a number of really important and 0:02:05.880 --> 0:02:10.680 tragically common problems in the wrongful conviction world. The mistake 0:02:10.720 --> 0:02:13.320 and I winness identification is unique in your case because 0:02:13.360 --> 0:02:15.320 of the fact that there were three different women who 0:02:15.360 --> 0:02:19.200 identified you under dubious circumstances, but nonetheless that identified you. 0:02:19.560 --> 0:02:21.760 It touches on the storage of evidence because in your 0:02:21.800 --> 0:02:25.360 case the evidence had been supposedly lost but actually it wasn't. 0:02:25.360 --> 0:02:29.200 And that's something that is really disturbing to anyone who's 0:02:29.240 --> 0:02:35.560 interested in justice. It deals with incompetent defense counsel. And 0:02:35.680 --> 0:02:41.399 also it also has an element of willful wrongful prosecution. 0:02:41.680 --> 0:02:46.799 So you really hit the jackpot of causes of getting 0:02:46.800 --> 0:02:49.040 locked up for something you didn't do. So let's go back, 0:02:49.520 --> 0:02:51.600 and this is a while ago, right, we're talking nineteen 0:02:51.639 --> 0:02:53.320 eighty three when this all came down. 0:02:53.600 --> 0:02:54.440 That's when it started. 0:02:54.480 --> 0:02:57.960 Yeah, So nineteen eighty three, paint a picture for us. 0:02:58.000 --> 0:03:00.400 You were were you active to a you in the 0:03:00.400 --> 0:03:01.320 military at this time. 0:03:01.560 --> 0:03:03.799 Yes, I was stationed at Fort Devons. 0:03:03.880 --> 0:03:06.160 Right, and you had been in in the airborne Right. 0:03:06.680 --> 0:03:09.560 I was a paratrooper paraterooper station in Italy. 0:03:10.240 --> 0:03:13.680 Well, first I was at Fort Bragg, then I volunteered 0:03:13.680 --> 0:03:16.600 to serve overseas. Then I re enlisted to come home 0:03:16.880 --> 0:03:20.600 to Massachusetts, and then I got off a jump status 0:03:20.600 --> 0:03:23.760 to work in my field, which was a diesel mechanic. 0:03:23.960 --> 0:03:24.880 And that's another thing. 0:03:25.000 --> 0:03:28.320 It's it's really upsetting to me, as someone who loves 0:03:28.360 --> 0:03:30.359 his country and respects. 0:03:30.000 --> 0:03:32.680 The men and women of our military. Here you are. 0:03:32.840 --> 0:03:34.760 You're twenty three years old at the time. 0:03:34.960 --> 0:03:35.240 Yep. 0:03:35.760 --> 0:03:37.880 And what happened. Let's go back to that. 0:03:38.640 --> 0:03:40.880 Well, I graduated from high school in seventy eight and 0:03:40.960 --> 0:03:43.480 enlisted in the Army right out of high school. You know. 0:03:43.480 --> 0:03:46.840 I went through Basic training, Advanced Individual Training, Jump school, 0:03:47.240 --> 0:03:50.560 then went to Fort Bragg, then to Vicenza, Italy in 0:03:50.600 --> 0:03:53.480 the five or nine, and then to ten Special Forces 0:03:53.560 --> 0:03:55.360 up at Fort Devons. Then I got off of jump 0:03:55.360 --> 0:03:58.800 status to work as a diesel mechanic because what I 0:03:58.840 --> 0:04:02.120 worked on doesn't drop out of. And then from there 0:04:02.480 --> 0:04:04.800 I was living at home and Lowell with my parents. 0:04:05.080 --> 0:04:08.880 I was walking down Westword Street and I was stopped 0:04:08.880 --> 0:04:11.880 by the police. They asked me for identification, so I 0:04:11.920 --> 0:04:15.600 gave him my driver's license, which was outdated because when 0:04:15.600 --> 0:04:17.359 you're in the military you get a cod on the 0:04:17.360 --> 0:04:20.640 back of it that says your license never expires, and 0:04:20.720 --> 0:04:23.760 so well, I asked me for identification. They ran my name, 0:04:23.800 --> 0:04:26.280 which came back negative because I had never been in trouble. 0:04:26.760 --> 0:04:29.840 No speed and tickets, no nothing. He gave me back 0:04:29.839 --> 0:04:32.720 my ID and then he searched me and he arrested 0:04:32.800 --> 0:04:36.080 me for possession of marijuana. So they brought me to 0:04:36.120 --> 0:04:39.560 the police station and booked me and put me in 0:04:39.560 --> 0:04:41.840 a hold and sell. A couple of hours later, they 0:04:41.839 --> 0:04:44.600 came out and questioned me and they said, where were 0:04:44.640 --> 0:04:48.080 you on the night of November sixteenth, at five point thirty. Well, 0:04:48.080 --> 0:04:50.240 I said, I was in my CEO's office getting yelled 0:04:50.240 --> 0:04:53.520 at because we failed a nuclear biological chemical test. And 0:04:53.560 --> 0:04:56.520 I didn't leave the base till almost quarter past five, 0:04:57.360 --> 0:05:00.560 so I didn't get home till almost six o'clock. And 0:05:00.600 --> 0:05:03.480 then he put me back in the cell. And then 0:05:03.520 --> 0:05:05.719 the other cop come in a couple of hours later 0:05:06.080 --> 0:05:07.920 and asked me the same questions. I gave him the 0:05:07.920 --> 0:05:10.960 same answers. On a night of November seventeenth, I was 0:05:11.640 --> 0:05:13.800 I left the base early to get my car inspected, 0:05:14.000 --> 0:05:16.120 and I went home and took a nap, and then 0:05:16.160 --> 0:05:18.039 I went over to my friend's house to watch the 0:05:18.040 --> 0:05:20.800 Bruins game. And then they brought me into court the 0:05:20.839 --> 0:05:24.880 next day and arranged me for possession of marijuana. And 0:05:24.920 --> 0:05:27.320 then they did what's called an in court identification. They 0:05:27.320 --> 0:05:28.839 took me out of the box and sat me on 0:05:28.839 --> 0:05:30.640 the bench, and they brought one of the victims in 0:05:31.279 --> 0:05:32.960 and she identified someone else. 0:05:33.480 --> 0:05:35.560 Wait, did you even know what was going on at 0:05:35.560 --> 0:05:37.679 this point? I mean, you were being booked for possession 0:05:37.680 --> 0:05:39.400 of marijuana, but now they're bringing a victim. There's no 0:05:39.480 --> 0:05:40.720 victim of possession of marijuana. 0:05:41.240 --> 0:05:44.800 True. What I missed was the second time they started 0:05:44.880 --> 0:05:47.640 questioning me, I got mad, you know, why what are 0:05:47.640 --> 0:05:50.880 you questioning me about? And he said, well, we're questioning 0:05:50.880 --> 0:05:53.240 you about a rape that happened on November sixteenth, and 0:05:53.240 --> 0:05:56.720 then attempted rape that happened on November seventeenth. So I said, well, 0:05:56.760 --> 0:06:00.520 I guess I need a lawyer. And then next day 0:06:00.600 --> 0:06:03.600 in court they did an in court identification. Now I 0:06:03.640 --> 0:06:05.719 was never arraigned for the rapes or anything. They just 0:06:05.720 --> 0:06:09.040 did an in court identification and the victim I need 0:06:09.120 --> 0:06:11.160 someone else, and the judge said, you have no grounds 0:06:11.200 --> 0:06:11.800 to go forward. 0:06:12.720 --> 0:06:14.960 Seems like case closes right there, I mean. 0:06:15.720 --> 0:06:17.760 So they gave me six months probation and said I 0:06:17.760 --> 0:06:19.960 could leave now they had my boots. So I was 0:06:20.040 --> 0:06:22.960 in stocking feet and going to have to walk home 0:06:23.000 --> 0:06:26.800 and stalking feet. As I was leaving the courtroom, they 0:06:26.920 --> 0:06:28.880 arrested me and charged me with the rape and the 0:06:28.920 --> 0:06:31.720 attempted rape that the judge said there was no grounds 0:06:31.720 --> 0:06:32.479 to go forward on. 0:06:33.560 --> 0:06:35.320 Okay, Alex, do you want to jump in here because 0:06:35.360 --> 0:06:36.720 this whole story is pretty surreal. 0:06:36.800 --> 0:06:36.880 Right. 0:06:36.960 --> 0:06:38.800 First of all, the thing with the boots, we'll get 0:06:38.800 --> 0:06:41.640 back to that. Like why they're making you walk home 0:06:41.920 --> 0:06:45.080 and this is in Uh it's cold outside, It's it's November. 0:06:45.120 --> 0:06:48.400 It's November. Yeah, walking home? Okay, Well that's that's a 0:06:48.400 --> 0:06:50.640 little surreal. Then you've just spent the night in jail 0:06:50.680 --> 0:06:51.840 for the first time in your life, so I'm sure 0:06:51.880 --> 0:06:55.080 you're a little whacked out anyway at that point. What's 0:06:55.120 --> 0:06:56.920 going on here, Alex? Can you get into this? 0:06:57.080 --> 0:06:59.960 I mean, obviously, the use of that sort of identify 0:07:00.440 --> 0:07:04.840 procedure raises serious questions because just presenting him alone or 0:07:04.920 --> 0:07:06.799 him in that sort of a setting when he's already 0:07:06.960 --> 0:07:09.080 being accused of some other crime, is not the right 0:07:09.120 --> 0:07:12.400 way to conduct I think we know now identification procedures, 0:07:12.800 --> 0:07:15.800 but I guess what must have happened is twofold one. 0:07:15.960 --> 0:07:18.520 No doubt that the members of law enforcement were under 0:07:18.520 --> 0:07:21.520 pressure to make an arrest in this case, and secondarily 0:07:21.760 --> 0:07:24.640 during the time in which mister Mayor was incarcerated on 0:07:24.680 --> 0:07:27.880 the initial charge, I'm sure that they noticed things articles 0:07:27.880 --> 0:07:31.720 of clothing putting him near the scene, and other indisha 0:07:31.800 --> 0:07:34.800 that they believed to be corroboration. And so the lack 0:07:34.840 --> 0:07:37.760 of identification obviously did not set this record straight. 0:07:38.000 --> 0:07:41.840 Right and There's a very interesting point that you touch 0:07:41.920 --> 0:07:44.480 on there, which is that there was one of the victims, 0:07:44.640 --> 0:07:46.720 or I guess one of the victims, had said that 0:07:46.760 --> 0:07:50.520 the attacker had had a red hooded sweatshirt, right, and 0:07:50.680 --> 0:07:54.080 that became one of the only sort of circumstantial piece 0:07:54.120 --> 0:07:56.320 of evidence that was even something that they could put 0:07:56.320 --> 0:07:56.760 a hook on. 0:07:56.880 --> 0:07:57.080 Right. 0:07:57.880 --> 0:07:59.800 That's why I think they stopped me, because they saw 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:03.000 was wearing a red hooded sweatshirt, you know, and they 0:08:03.040 --> 0:08:06.440 were two hundred feet away from me, and they said 0:08:06.480 --> 0:08:08.320 I fit the out of conception, but I believe it 0:08:08.360 --> 0:08:09.960 was just I had a red hooded sweatshirt on. 0:08:10.120 --> 0:08:10.240 Right. 0:08:10.280 --> 0:08:12.080 So seven o'clock at night, two hundred fet away, it's 0:08:12.080 --> 0:08:13.840 pretty hard to decide. I mean, you'd have to have 0:08:13.960 --> 0:08:16.800 sort of like really superhuman vision to be able to 0:08:16.960 --> 0:08:22.920 match a suspect at night, seven o'clock in November in Massachusetts. 0:08:23.000 --> 0:08:25.160 I'm not a meteorologist, but I'm guessing it was dark, 0:08:25.600 --> 0:08:28.120 and so it was dark, and you were two hundred 0:08:28.120 --> 0:08:30.520 feet away, and they managed to magically figure out that 0:08:30.560 --> 0:08:32.520 it was you. Now, this goes back to the thing 0:08:32.600 --> 0:08:34.160 I talk about often, which is that this is a 0:08:34.200 --> 0:08:37.320 small town. Right, you have a rapist out there who's 0:08:37.360 --> 0:08:40.720 just attacked two women, raped one of them, sexually assaulted 0:08:40.760 --> 0:08:42.839 and tempted to wape the other one. They got to 0:08:42.840 --> 0:08:45.320 find somebody there. You are walking around in a red 0:08:45.320 --> 0:08:48.080 hooded sweatshirt. It's like, oh, bingo, this is great. We 0:08:48.120 --> 0:08:50.280 can get this off our desks to an extent, right, 0:08:50.600 --> 0:08:53.000 And so Alex, go back to what you were saying before. 0:08:53.480 --> 0:08:56.280 Yeah, I mean, obviously we don't know sort of verbat 0:08:56.360 --> 0:08:58.520 him the back and forth. But no, that is not 0:08:58.800 --> 0:09:02.319 a sound identify procedure. I could say that quite assuredly. 0:09:02.480 --> 0:09:05.080 And what point did you you had requested a lawyer, 0:09:05.240 --> 0:09:07.080 At what point did you get assigned a lawyer. 0:09:07.720 --> 0:09:09.920 A lawyer approached my parents and asked if he could 0:09:10.000 --> 0:09:12.960 represent me. Now, this is the lawyer who ended up 0:09:12.960 --> 0:09:15.880 representing me at trial. He approached my parents the same 0:09:15.920 --> 0:09:18.600 day I had one to appoint it to me for possession. 0:09:19.120 --> 0:09:21.600 You know, I got six months probation. But then another 0:09:21.679 --> 0:09:24.480 lawyer approached my parents asking if he could represent me, 0:09:25.760 --> 0:09:28.560 and they said yes, yes, because they knew nothing about 0:09:28.559 --> 0:09:30.480 the law like me, you know, they'd never been in 0:09:30.520 --> 0:09:34.160 trouble or anything. And he said it'd represent me for 0:09:34.240 --> 0:09:36.920 five thousand dollars on a rape case. 0:09:37.800 --> 0:09:40.840 Now nineteen eighty three, five thousand dollars, five thousand dollars, right, 0:09:40.920 --> 0:09:43.880 I mean that's a lot of money back then, so 0:09:43.960 --> 0:09:46.000 you would hope that this guy would be a real star. 0:09:46.640 --> 0:09:48.400 But that's not the way it worked out at all, 0:09:48.520 --> 0:09:51.880 is it. Back to the scene, So now you're about 0:09:51.920 --> 0:09:55.839 to walk home in your socks stocking feet as New 0:09:55.880 --> 0:09:58.960 Englanders call it, and then you get pulled back in 0:09:59.640 --> 0:10:02.760 and you get charged with two counts. 0:10:02.200 --> 0:10:05.200 Of rape and an attempted rape. Right, Well, I didn't 0:10:05.200 --> 0:10:07.720 get charged then, they just arrested me, and then they 0:10:07.760 --> 0:10:09.760 took me back to the police station and kept me 0:10:09.760 --> 0:10:12.760 in the station over the weekend and brought me into 0:10:13.080 --> 0:10:15.439 Cambridge Court House and that's where they charged me with 0:10:15.559 --> 0:10:19.040 rape and put me on ten thousand dollars bail, which 0:10:19.080 --> 0:10:22.800 is one thousand dollars cash. So my parents bailed me 0:10:22.840 --> 0:10:25.000 out and then I went to the first lineup, which 0:10:25.080 --> 0:10:28.320 was me six police officers. They were all standing behind 0:10:28.360 --> 0:10:31.240 a railing. I was standing behind a chair and I 0:10:31.320 --> 0:10:33.320 was ided that was the first one. 0:10:34.960 --> 0:10:37.520 That kind of stuff always blows me away. Let's just 0:10:37.679 --> 0:10:38.560 reflect back on that. 0:10:38.640 --> 0:10:40.440 So they were standing behind a railing and you were 0:10:40.480 --> 0:10:42.520 standing behind a chair, so there was really no reason 0:10:42.600 --> 0:10:45.160 that anyone would think there'd be anything different about you, right, 0:10:45.640 --> 0:10:47.679 And there were six police officers in you okay? 0:10:47.760 --> 0:10:50.160 And then the victim, one of the victims, comes in. 0:10:50.559 --> 0:10:54.840 And identified me. You know, it was probably obvious to her, 0:10:54.880 --> 0:10:57.960 you know, I'm standing behind a chair. I really don't 0:10:57.960 --> 0:11:00.320 remember the second lineup, but I think when along the 0:11:00.360 --> 0:11:03.920 same lines, it was me, six police officers, my brother, 0:11:04.720 --> 0:11:07.199 and this time I wasn't standing behind a chair, and 0:11:07.240 --> 0:11:08.400 she id'd me, what. 0:11:08.320 --> 0:11:09.320 Does your brother have to do with it? 0:11:09.880 --> 0:11:11.240 Well, he was just in the line. He was there, 0:11:11.280 --> 0:11:12.840 and they just wanted to stick him in the lineup. 0:11:13.559 --> 0:11:14.600 That seems odd, doesn't it. 0:11:16.440 --> 0:11:18.520 I think that, you know, law enforcement would say that 0:11:18.600 --> 0:11:22.240 later they can assert that they did everything in their 0:11:22.280 --> 0:11:25.040 power to find people that look like him and who looks. 0:11:24.840 --> 0:11:26.160 More like a person than their own brother. 0:11:26.480 --> 0:11:30.000 And that's an interesting thing too, because I would this identification, 0:11:30.640 --> 0:11:32.480 as everyone who listens to the show knows, is the 0:11:32.640 --> 0:11:37.679 leading cause of wrongful conviction. And what we also know 0:11:38.280 --> 0:11:41.000 is that in cases where there's a weapon involved and 0:11:41.080 --> 0:11:44.000 someone is in close proximity and really fearing for their life, 0:11:44.000 --> 0:11:48.000 in a very real way, the instance of mistaken identification 0:11:48.320 --> 0:11:52.240 goes up. And that's logical, right as an amateur psychologist, 0:11:52.600 --> 0:11:56.480 if you're freaking out, literally like you're adrenaline is on, 0:11:56.840 --> 0:11:59.839 you know ten, you know your mind's not going to 0:12:00.120 --> 0:12:02.439 function in the way that it would if you were 0:12:02.480 --> 0:12:05.560 just calmly sitting here and just look at somebody. But 0:12:05.679 --> 0:12:08.120 when someone's got a knife to your throat and is 0:12:08.120 --> 0:12:11.040 either raping or attempting to rape you, your faculties are 0:12:11.080 --> 0:12:14.400 not going to be operating in a normal passion, to 0:12:14.480 --> 0:12:18.120 say the least. And so this case had that as 0:12:18.160 --> 0:12:21.360 well because the victims were in that exact situation. 0:12:22.000 --> 0:12:25.000 Have you seen the Gorilla basketball video? 0:12:25.400 --> 0:12:27.040 Yes, okay, have you guys seen that? 0:12:27.800 --> 0:12:30.520 The idea of being we just aren't able to focus 0:12:30.640 --> 0:12:33.400 really clearly on a lot of things at once. So 0:12:33.960 --> 0:12:36.600 if you haven't seen this, I'm completely going to ruin. 0:12:36.400 --> 0:12:39.200 It for you. But no, just watch it. Everyone should watch. 0:12:39.080 --> 0:12:42.760 It, right Google, It's on YouTube's a selective attention. 0:12:42.520 --> 0:12:45.280 Test, right, there's a selective attention test. It involves a 0:12:45.360 --> 0:12:48.400 basketball I strongly recommend that everybody listening to the show 0:12:48.440 --> 0:12:50.880 watched this because it'll give you an idea of just 0:12:51.040 --> 0:12:54.000 how easy it is for your mind to play tricks 0:12:54.000 --> 0:12:56.000 on you. So let's go back to the scene, right. 0:12:56.040 --> 0:12:59.360 So you end up now with this high priced, fancy lawyer, right, 0:12:59.480 --> 0:13:01.160 and you didn't get what you paid for. 0:13:02.000 --> 0:13:04.640 No, I didn't. He never visited where the crime happened. 0:13:04.920 --> 0:13:08.839 He never interrogated witnesses or talked to the witnesses or 0:13:08.880 --> 0:13:13.320 anything like that. We went to trial in March of 0:13:13.360 --> 0:13:17.760 two thousand and four. Well before that, January fifth, nineteen 0:13:17.800 --> 0:13:20.760 eighty four, the police came and arrested me again and 0:13:20.840 --> 0:13:22.880 brought me down to the police station. I said, well, 0:13:23.040 --> 0:13:25.160 what are you arresting me for? They wouldn't say anything, 0:13:25.760 --> 0:13:28.040 and they handed me over to the Air Police department. 0:13:29.280 --> 0:13:32.080 So they brought me back to Air and on the way, 0:13:32.160 --> 0:13:34.960 I asked the cop you know what am I under 0:13:35.040 --> 0:13:37.960 arrest for? She said, just shut up. So I asked 0:13:37.960 --> 0:13:40.080 her again and she said just shut up. I says, 0:13:40.400 --> 0:13:42.200 can you please tell me what I'm under arrest for? 0:13:42.240 --> 0:13:44.920 And she said, well, you're under arrest for a rape 0:13:44.920 --> 0:13:48.240 that happened at the Casa Mano Hotel. I said, where's 0:13:48.280 --> 0:13:52.000 the Casa Mana Hotel? Because I never knew where it 0:13:52.120 --> 0:13:54.600 was until two years ago when I went and spoke 0:13:54.600 --> 0:13:58.120 in air and she said, well, you committed a rape there. 0:13:58.120 --> 0:14:00.920 I said, no, I didn't. And then they brought me 0:14:00.960 --> 0:14:03.960 in the air and put my bail at fifty thousand 0:14:04.000 --> 0:14:06.880 dollars cash. So that was my last day of freedom, 0:14:07.000 --> 0:14:11.040 was January fifth, nineteen eighty four. And then we went 0:14:11.040 --> 0:14:14.040 through another lineup and I was idd again. And in 0:14:14.120 --> 0:14:16.440 March of nineteen eighty four we went to trial. 0:14:17.679 --> 0:14:18.840 Going back to your lawyer. 0:14:18.920 --> 0:14:21.680 So your lawyer didn't visit the crime scene, big red 0:14:21.680 --> 0:14:25.440 flag there. Yeah, didn't interview the witnesses. That seems even 0:14:25.480 --> 0:14:28.320 more insane. Okay, what else did he forget to do 0:14:28.800 --> 0:14:29.560 or neglect to do? 0:14:29.600 --> 0:14:32.120 I should say he didn't show up for some hearings 0:14:32.720 --> 0:14:35.960 at the trial. He presented most of the case for 0:14:36.040 --> 0:14:38.880 the prosecutor. You know, he's standing next to me. Are 0:14:38.880 --> 0:14:41.160 you sure this is the person? Are you sure? There's 0:14:41.200 --> 0:14:43.840 an point at me saying are you sure this is 0:14:43.840 --> 0:14:46.760 the person who raped you? And of course I got 0:14:46.760 --> 0:14:47.400 found guilty. 0:14:48.280 --> 0:14:49.600 I mean, anybody as well to say are you sure 0:14:49.600 --> 0:14:51.200 that this rapist is the one who raped you? 0:14:51.280 --> 0:14:53.240 Right? I mean it's like, I mean, it's crazy. So 0:14:53.600 --> 0:14:56.920 it's incomprehensible. I mean, Alex jump in here because I'm 0:14:56.920 --> 0:14:57.480 freaking out. 0:14:57.680 --> 0:15:00.400 Yeah, this is not does not sound like good LORI that. 0:15:00.880 --> 0:15:03.760 Now, let's talk about what good lawyering might have looked like, 0:15:03.840 --> 0:15:06.560 because this is an unusual situation we have here where 0:15:06.560 --> 0:15:09.120 we actually have somebody on the show who can give 0:15:09.240 --> 0:15:10.440 us that type of idea. 0:15:10.840 --> 0:15:12.640 I guess I'd break it down into two parts. In 0:15:12.720 --> 0:15:15.560 terms of the identification, I think you have to remember that, 0:15:15.880 --> 0:15:18.480 in terms of Lowell, the women were approached from behind. 0:15:18.960 --> 0:15:21.560 You already mentioned the distraction of a weapon, a high 0:15:21.560 --> 0:15:25.720 tense situation affecting the ability to accurately picture somebody and 0:15:25.760 --> 0:15:29.080 recall it. For one, she had already seen the individual 0:15:29.120 --> 0:15:31.280 that she would later pick out, because she had seen 0:15:31.360 --> 0:15:33.000 him in a courtroom setting on a bench, and so 0:15:33.040 --> 0:15:36.160 even if she just remembered that she would falsely identify him. 0:15:36.520 --> 0:15:39.680 It also wasn't a double blind procedure, meaning that the 0:15:39.760 --> 0:15:43.240 investigator ostensibly knew who she was trying to pick out, 0:15:43.280 --> 0:15:45.880 put him in a unique setting within the lineup and 0:15:45.920 --> 0:15:49.120 everything else. In addition, all of the witnesses were shown 0:15:49.160 --> 0:15:53.240 photographs in which they identified as I understand it, mister 0:15:53.280 --> 0:15:56.000 mayor before they viewed a live lineup, and so what 0:15:56.120 --> 0:15:59.000 often happens is that you end up picking out the 0:15:59.040 --> 0:16:01.600 person that you saw in the photo array, not necessarily 0:16:01.680 --> 0:16:04.280 the person who saw on the night in question. And 0:16:04.560 --> 0:16:08.080 sort of all of that, coupled with law enforcements, desire 0:16:08.240 --> 0:16:10.600 from perhaps a very good place of trying to solve 0:16:10.640 --> 0:16:14.160 this crime, can lead to a series of identification procedures 0:16:14.160 --> 0:16:17.040 not being pristine and not being correctly done, and the 0:16:17.160 --> 0:16:20.360 taint from one bleeds over into the next, because once 0:16:20.400 --> 0:16:23.800 he's identified in these initial cases, the air case becomes 0:16:23.800 --> 0:16:26.720 a foregone conclusion, and I think you have to attack 0:16:26.800 --> 0:16:29.160 that in all of those different ways. I also think 0:16:29.200 --> 0:16:31.520 they used corroborative evidence that is a bit of a 0:16:31.520 --> 0:16:35.840 red herring. They see him in the vicinity near the 0:16:35.880 --> 0:16:38.440 time of the initial rapes and Lowell, but the truth 0:16:38.520 --> 0:16:41.040 is he's from that area. It's not like finding somebody 0:16:41.080 --> 0:16:43.680 in some remote location or finding somebody far away from 0:16:43.720 --> 0:16:46.800 where they normally travel. They see a knife and a 0:16:46.880 --> 0:16:49.640 jacket in his car, but that's military issued, where that 0:16:49.840 --> 0:16:52.040 most of the men in his age demographic in a 0:16:52.080 --> 0:16:55.000 military town might very well have, and he might be 0:16:55.000 --> 0:16:57.760 wearing a red sweatshirt. But as US folks from Boston know, 0:16:57.880 --> 0:16:59.960 a lot of the sports teams there have red sweatshirt, 0:17:00.120 --> 0:17:02.360 and I don't think that is that unique of an item. 0:17:02.720 --> 0:17:05.760 And so there were all of those things that needed 0:17:05.800 --> 0:17:08.560 to be investigated. And on top of that, he had 0:17:08.560 --> 0:17:11.119 an alibi that wasn't properly vetted, that could have been 0:17:11.160 --> 0:17:13.640 properly vetted that would suggest he couldn't have been where 0:17:13.680 --> 0:17:16.639 they say that he was. And the crimes themselves, the 0:17:16.680 --> 0:17:19.280 air crime versus the lower crimes, don't have the same 0:17:19.520 --> 0:17:23.119 fact pattern and don't necessarily suggest that the same person 0:17:23.160 --> 0:17:26.639 perpetrated them. And that wasn't really tested or explored, and 0:17:26.680 --> 0:17:28.919 I think that could have been used effectively to suggest 0:17:29.000 --> 0:17:30.240 law enforcements, tunnel vision. 0:17:30.560 --> 0:17:33.400 Were any of these factors brought up by your attorney 0:17:33.520 --> 0:17:34.400 at trial. 0:17:34.119 --> 0:17:34.960 Or at any other time. 0:17:36.080 --> 0:17:38.600 Well, he brought up part of my alibi because where 0:17:38.800 --> 0:17:41.280 I was at the base for the November sixteenth crime, 0:17:41.760 --> 0:17:44.199 and they just dismissed it. They said, do you have 0:17:44.240 --> 0:17:46.600 that and write And even though I had NCOs the 0:17:46.800 --> 0:17:49.600 sergeants they are testifying on my behalf that they were 0:17:49.640 --> 0:17:49.919 with me. 0:17:50.680 --> 0:17:53.720 So the sergeants actually testified at trial and said that 0:17:53.720 --> 0:17:56.440 you were there. Yeah, those would seem to be relatively 0:17:56.480 --> 0:17:59.600 We're not talking about crackheads, right, We're talking about sergeants 0:17:59.600 --> 0:18:02.760 in the ends United States Army who are saying this 0:18:02.840 --> 0:18:03.679 guy was here. 0:18:04.440 --> 0:18:05.120 Again, I'm not. 0:18:05.080 --> 0:18:07.359 A professor of metaphysics, but you can't be in two 0:18:07.440 --> 0:18:10.240 places at one time. Everybody knows that. 0:18:10.560 --> 0:18:12.720 And the Starhouse had a reason to remember, right. The 0:18:12.760 --> 0:18:15.000 sergeants said that there had been a test failure and 0:18:15.000 --> 0:18:17.639 that it was an intense meeting, and so it wasn't 0:18:17.720 --> 0:18:19.560 a standard meeting. It was a meeting that they would 0:18:19.640 --> 0:18:22.120 have one would think remember, and they remembered him there. 0:18:22.240 --> 0:18:25.199 Yeah, that's an excellent point again that a good defense 0:18:25.280 --> 0:18:27.960 lawyer would have brought up. And this is very different 0:18:28.000 --> 0:18:29.840 than some of the cases we see where a guy's 0:18:29.880 --> 0:18:32.600 alibi or a woman's alibi is that they were home 0:18:32.720 --> 0:18:35.440 with their parents watching TV or with their wife or something. 0:18:35.440 --> 0:18:37.600 And then they say, wow, the lie for anybody would 0:18:37.600 --> 0:18:40.560 lie to protect their family. This is not family, right. 0:18:40.600 --> 0:18:44.280 These guys are not your uncles or brothers or anything else. 0:18:44.320 --> 0:18:47.000 I mean, these are guys you work with, and in fact, 0:18:47.040 --> 0:18:49.080 they were bitsed at you at this particular time. On 0:18:49.119 --> 0:18:51.880 top of that, So that's just that's just nuts. 0:18:51.960 --> 0:18:54.280 I think what the prosecutor may have countered is, even 0:18:54.359 --> 0:18:56.640 if they were to be believed, he still had enough 0:18:56.680 --> 0:18:59.840